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Healing in the Hardest Places: End-of-Life Care Inside Prison
44 Plays24 days ago
In this episode of The Glam Reaper Podcast, Jennifer Muldowney sits down with Laura Musselman of the Humane Prison Hospice Project to explore the often unseen world of end-of-life care behind bars. Through a powerful and deeply personal conversation, Laura shares how her journey through loss and grief led her to support incarcerated caregivers offering dignity to fellow inmates in their final days.
The episode uncovers the human side of prison life that many overlook, where empathy, purpose, and community still thrive in the harshest environments. Laura and Jennifer reflect on the complexities of compassion, the weight of judgment, and why every person, regardless of their past, deserves to be seen and cared for.
See also Jennifer’s previous blog on the topic here https://www.theglamreaper.com/2025/03/a-life-sentence-is-death-sentencejust.html
This conversation is a reminder that even in the most difficult circumstances, people are capable of profound kindness, and when given the chance, community gathers and they will rise to care for one another.
Key Topics:
-Finding purpose through grief and personal loss
-The power of compassion behind prison walls
-Honoring dignity and care at the end of life
-Seeing the human beyond the sentence
-How healing begins when we choose to care
Timestamp:
[00:00] Podcast Intro
[00:46] Laura shared with Jen how personal loss and a calling to support life transitions drew her from teaching into end-of-life care in prisons, where she now works to restore dignity for aging and terminally ill inmates often forgotten by society.
[07:09] She challenged the idea that care must be earned, telling Jen that compassion isn’t a prize, it’s a reflection of our shared humanity and the kind of society we want to be.
[11:25] Laura emphasized that every person, even those behind bars, carries a story shaped by life experience, not just a sentence, and that offering care shouldn't depend on someone’s perceived worth.
[17:22] She reflected on witnessing deep empathy in the most unlikely places, reminding Jen that healing and purpose can thrive even in the darkest corners, if we allow space for it.
[25:30] Laura explained how her team listens to each prison specific needs, training incarcerated peers with trauma-informed skills to provide compassionate care for fellow inmates facing aging, dementia, or death.
[32:05] She described the trust-based, peer-led programs that bring meaning, responsibility, and connection to both caregivers and those nearing life’s end, proof that humanity doesn’t stop at prison walls.
[38:59] Outro
Check out a blog post on this also: https://www.theglamreaper.com/2025/03/a-life-sentence-is-death-sentencejust.html
Connect with Laura Musselman:
LinkedIn- linkedin.com/in/laura-musselman-3aa42174
Website - humaneprisonhospiceproject.org
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Email us - glamreaperpodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Themes of Compassion
00:00:00
Speaker
Even in hideous situations, humans are capable of caring for each other. And when we are given the opportunity to do so, we will.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of the Glam Reaper podcast. I'm your host Jennifer Muldowney aka the Glam Reaper and on today's episode we have a really interesting I think honestly since I was a a little child a really interesting subject.
00:00:36
Speaker
We have Laura as our guest and she's from the Humane Prison Hospice Project.
Jennifer's Interest in Prisons and Healthcare
00:00:42
Speaker
Laura welcome to the Glam Reaper podcast. Thank you so much for having me. i'm I'm excited to be here and it's so nice to meet you. You too. Yes, absolutely. This is, um i don't want to say a dream of mine because that kind of sounds a bit weird to creep.
00:00:56
Speaker
Just always been somebody as a kid, I was always fascinated with sort of ah were living in Ireland. I was always fascinated with programs like the Green Mile is one of my like favorite programs, but like death row and sort of just inmates and like how prison versus jail, like even that that's a thing. and You know, it was all sort of news to me um and so just then opening up this idea of hospice you know for for prisoners like mind blown I never even thought Jesus yeah like they have health issues too like other human beings and stuff so um if you want to just tell us a little bit about you how you got into the project and and sort of yeah your day-to-day
00:01:37
Speaker
Sure.
Laura's Journey to Prison Hospice Work
00:01:38
Speaker
um Well, how I got into working with the Humane Prison Hospice Project is, in hindsight, just a plethora of threads that all kind of came together in a really unexpected way. If you asked me 20 years ago if I thought I'd be doing this work now, I would wonder how on earth if I got here.
00:01:59
Speaker
um I come from a background of academia. i have an MFA in creative writing. So I taught English. I taught philosophy. And then as I was teaching, both of my parents died back to back in my twenty s um So by the time I was 30, both of my parents had died. And I was teaching ethics at the time and realized that the things I enjoyed...
00:02:27
Speaker
talking about the most with my students were largely around issues of life and death transitions. um And I just decided to follow that thread. I think I'd become a little bit more in tune with my own mortality and death had always been that big mystery to me that nobody really wanted to talk about or explain.
00:02:49
Speaker
And much to my dismay, studying philosophy didn't answer any of those questions either. It just created more. So i quit teaching. I trained as an end of life doula.
00:03:01
Speaker
I began working for a hospice. And while I was working with that hospice, I began working with a group of peer caregivers at the women's prison that was in the area.
00:03:15
Speaker
um And they are and incredible group of people. It's a really grassroots group of caregivers who recognized the need to increase their knowledge around caregiving and and basically ask for what they needed from the administration and and from the community. So I began working with them and then Humane was hiring a few months later. So it seemed like a really perfect fit.
00:03:48
Speaker
And I've been here for about three years now.
Impact of Personal Mortality on Career Choices
00:03:52
Speaker
I'm And tell us a little bit about, i mean, that's some journey and it is interesting. I mean, my own journey, and I do think a lot of people who come into this field and weren't sort of born into it, I do think have either been forced to face their mortality or maybe through their own mental health journey journeys have ah faced it and kind of come through the other side. um And so it's always interesting to hear everybody's stories. And, you know, there's a lot of heartbreak obviously in there as well. And
00:04:20
Speaker
Nobody should have to face their mortality so young, and you know, really. But as we say, it is what it is. And, you know, it's it's that life and death. It's the world and it's it's what happens. And m it happens in prisons.
00:04:39
Speaker
It does. And it's. Yeah. I think, you know, when i when I went through what I went through, the the thing that stuck out the most to me was how isolating grief feels. And I think particularly at a young age, not really knowing very many people who had also been through that, it feels a little bit like you're in a vacuum.
00:05:01
Speaker
go um And when I began working with the caregivers at the women's prison, it occurred to me that that isolation is then tenfold, right?
00:05:14
Speaker
Because you're correctional setting which is built to keep you from being seen and heard from the community outside.
00:05:26
Speaker
And so any loss, any grief, any any of that that's happening in that setting is just amplified exponentially. And you're right. I mean, the need is the same, both inside of prison and
Challenges of Prison Healthcare
00:05:41
Speaker
outside. We have so many people who are getting older, who are trying to survive chronic illnesses or dealing with terminal illnesses, who don't know how to really ask for or receive the end-of-life care that they need because it's something that's a little bit hard to find.
00:06:05
Speaker
And in prison, because the environment is what it is, it's very dehumanizing, it's very traumatizing, There's not exactly what I would call a wealth of adequate, compassionate health care at hand.
00:06:24
Speaker
um People who are incarcerated age physiologically around two years to every one faster than people who are not.
00:06:35
Speaker
So if you're going into a system where you're not receiving adequate, adequate sounds like such a terrible word to use here, but if you're not receiving good access to healthcare and you probably weren't receiving it before, any illness that you might have, any of the just things that come along with an aging body or an aging brain are just really emphasized.
00:07:04
Speaker
um But the support is so much more lacking. Right. So huge need. Yeah, it's it's a wild concept to even have. And I'm sure, you know, I know there's going to be people who are listening to this going, well, who cares? They're in prison, you know, and and do they don't deserve care. And, and i you know, people will think of Because I know, i like, I think there's a statistic and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's one in six or seven people in the U.S. are in are facing lifetime, not in the U.S. or in the prison system are facing life sentences.
00:07:43
Speaker
I think that could be. We might have to fact check that. We can fact check that. Yeah. I think what this statistic I have in my massive statistic document is probably a percentage. But um yeah yeah, we can fact check that.
00:07:58
Speaker
So these. It's more than there should be. Yeah. Yeah. And so these people are, they're, they're. doing these life sentences, and there's no, you know, no potential chance for parole. I don't know, whatever their situation is, but there's a lot of people on life sentences in prison.
00:08:16
Speaker
And, you know, you could nearly compare that to the
Compassionate Care in Prisons
00:08:23
Speaker
death row. It's sort of with, if you're not providing people with even adequate or remotely
00:08:31
Speaker
basic health care then are they not on death row is that not just a slower painful i mean christ i part of me is sort of you know i know from having conversations very open and honest conversations with people that they sort of say oh if this happens to me or this happens to me or this happens to me pull the plug or you know i'd wrap you know talking about medically assisted suicide is is a hot topic right now and across europe like that and um you know, Jesus, there's some people I'm sure that are on life life sentences that would probably prefer to to get the needle or the electric chair or, i you know, any of these yeah just just, yeah, it's kind of, it's just, it's wild. Like, what do what what do you say to somebody who, you know, an average person on the street who would say, well, who cares? They're prisoners and why should they get health insurance?
00:09:22
Speaker
What would you say to that? Yeah. Yeah, well, I have probably half a dozen responses to that yeah at hand at any given moment, because, you know, whether whether somebody directly asks us asks us that or not, I am very much always at the ready for it. um And it does happen. i you know, at the very just surface level, it's a human rights issue.
00:09:47
Speaker
yeah um People who are incarcerated do have a right to adequate health care. Yeah. Period. um Aside from that, you know, i was telling somebody yesterday, I've been doing this sort of thought experiment with myself. i i ask myself sometimes, has there ever been a moment in history, has there ever been an issue that we have resolved successfully by withdrawing compassion?
Understanding Prisoners' Backstories
00:10:16
Speaker
Like, has there ever been a situation where less compassion given is somehow... the right answer to the problem. And I can't think of one.
00:10:27
Speaker
i think, you know, I've definitely heard it phrased before. Why should somebody who's incarcerated be given compassionate, dignified end of life care if they maybe didn't give that to someone else?
00:10:42
Speaker
And i think for a lot of people experiencing incarceration, you know I think some of that has to do with a misconception about who's incarcerated.
00:10:53
Speaker
yeah The vast majority of people I work with were not given compassion ever. And I think it's so much clearer to see the thread between lack of compassion leading acts in which there is no compassion, not the other way around.
00:11:12
Speaker
yeah um And ultimately, the way that we treat people when we extend that compassion or that dignified care, that's really a reflection on us, not them.
00:11:26
Speaker
Yeah. Well, in answer to your your brain experiments that you're doing on yourselves, you're needing an active of a Petri dish, an active experiment right now because, you know, compassion isn't being shown for certain groups at the moment in in the United States. And so we're we're where we're an experiment. We're going to find out, I guess, and in months and years to come as to whether that's that worked or it didn't work um so you know we're not going get into the political of us because we we stay neutral but you know we're going we're going to find out i guess in years to come but um the yeah and i mean it's not like there isn't precedence we've you know yeah we've messed around and found out before but you know yes yes for sure the um
Trauma, Guilt, and Innocence
00:12:14
Speaker
the interesting thing though about what you said like very correctly and and that my
00:12:22
Speaker
A bit like yourself, like I kind of think and overthink many different things. Like I was in a car accident and many years ago and I knocked somebody over and, um,
00:12:34
Speaker
That stuck with me forever. And it was it was her fault. It was it was the person who was the victim in this scenario, but it was her fault. um right And so fascinating about that was that 10 years previously, I had and witnessed a car accident and and without kind of going into too much detail, but there was a truck driver.
00:12:56
Speaker
And I was only a child at the time. was in my dad's car and there was a truck driver and ah ah cyclist. What looks like a cyclist have fallen under the truck completely and utterly like chopped up into a million different pieces and obviously died. And i remember by the time our car came to pass the the truck driver and he was being obviously interviewed, like just the absolute distraught, like i it was just horrific to witness his face.
00:13:22
Speaker
But of course, immediately you're thinking of the cyclist and of course you should, the victim and the cyclist and my God, and you know, his life is lost and everything. And it came out, I think it was maybe less than 24 hours later, that the gentleman, the victim, quote unquote, and who had, he had actually thrown himself under the truck.
00:13:42
Speaker
and And suicide. And not only that, um he had actually axed his mother and his wife and daughter in bed that morning before he performed this act.
00:13:53
Speaker
Oh, my God. So it was it was just and as a child sort of i I processed all of this and they were actually from the area that we were living in at the time. So it was a lot But when it came then to my accident years later, um and and thankfully, you know, everything was, you know, all the cars and the witnesses around said, you know, she ran out and it was not, you know, I wasn't found to be liable or anything like that.
00:14:17
Speaker
But it stuck with me, the trauma of seeing a body smash up on my windshield and go flying and the trauma of seeing a body on the road and not knowing was she dead, was she alive. I will never forget it as long as I live.
00:14:28
Speaker
And then watching her finally, you know, move. Okay. She's not dead. Okay. Okay. Oh my God. Is she paralyzed? Like the the fascinating parts of the way your brain moves. And then I saw her sit up and she wasn't paralyzed. And thank God she only broke her leg.
00:14:42
Speaker
But in this scenario, she's still the victim. Right. And even though i also was a victim as and as far as I'm concerned, that truck driver was well and the them the wife and daughter in this that scenario that i witnessed as a child were the true victims.
00:14:58
Speaker
Our brains are immediately going to sort of, well, the truck driver was driving the weapon, the truck I was driving, the car, the weapon. You know, and so these people, you know, just because they're pedestrians doesn't meet make them completely innocent. and And so it's just a very fascinating. So I've always sort of had this, you know, when I hear of an accident on the radio, I actually now immediately think of the driver and how traumatized they could be. And because we just don't know, you don't know the full story of things.
00:15:24
Speaker
And I think all of this to say that and we don't know the full story of each. You can't make blanket statements like nobody, you know, in prison on life sentences whatever. They're all been proven guilty. And and so they don't deserve X, Y and Z, whatever it might be.
00:15:41
Speaker
And you can't sort of say that blanket statement because every human being is different. Every person's story is different. We all deal with things differently. And yeah, it's just a really fascinating thing to sort of think about.
00:15:55
Speaker
and And we all make mistakes. And as you said, you know, these people weren't shown compassion. Leading up to whatever incarcerated them for for a life sentence. And it's just.
00:16:09
Speaker
Yeah. They are human at the end of the day that maybe made a mistake, were forced into making a mistake, were mentally not able to make the right decision at the time.
Human Nature and Empathy
00:16:20
Speaker
Right.
00:16:21
Speaker
It's just such ah a fascinating subject. I just recently watched, there was a UK series um called Adolescence. If you haven't seen it, check it out. um It's on Netflix.
00:16:33
Speaker
ah Yes, it's on Netflix. Oh my God, I just i wrote a blog piece on it because I felt so moved by it. But exactly. what we're talking about is here in the whole series, there's so many victims, so many victims in it.
00:16:49
Speaker
And I don't want to give, you know, the story away and that my blog piece that'll be definitely long out by the time this podcast is released. It, you know, I don't want to give any spoilers and it has spoilers in it, but it just goes to show how, you know, our past, our current mental state, all of these things can lead us to to doing something that,
00:17:12
Speaker
is a mistake, can be rehabilitated, can be reformed. It doesn't mean we're completely and utterly evil people. But then how do you... I'm going off on a tangent because I'm just so... No, it's okay.
00:17:25
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and it's so layered. it is. You know, it's really, it's complex. And I think, you know, as humans in general, we're not always great at handling complex, multi-layered concepts. We very much like kind of Thinking in binaries, this is wrong, this is right, this is this, this is that. And, you know, holding two things that are true at the same time, i think, can be difficult.
00:17:54
Speaker
I think at a really just core level, i don't think anybody, first of all, wants to be defined by the worst mistake they ever made or the worst thing that they ever did. I certainly don't.
00:18:06
Speaker
um And I also, and this is just maybe my optimistic, personal, humanistic belief, but I really don't believe that the vast a majority of people wake up one day and decide to do harm, decide to do bad.
00:18:27
Speaker
um i am sure that those people exist. I don't think that it's the rule by any means. And, you know, the fact of the matter is, when we work with peer caregivers who are incarcerated, the amount of empathy and commitment that and conviction in their caregiving work is astounding.
00:18:57
Speaker
it It knocks me off my feet each and every time because i've you know I've trained hospice volunteers in
Changing Perceptions of Prisoners
00:19:03
Speaker
the community. I've been one. I know caregivers. I've been a caregiver clearly.
00:19:08
Speaker
And perhaps it's because the stakes are so much higher. Perhaps it's because there is nowhere else to turn and no one else generally to rely on for that support.
00:19:19
Speaker
the The ways in which they really support each other in these extremely vulnerable, tumultuous moments are just exceptional.
00:19:33
Speaker
and And it's something that i wish... people could see and experience for themselves because there are so many ideas about um people who are incarcerated who have done this crime or that crime. And I think it's very easy for people to imagine that this is the backstory and this is what got them there. And these are the facts and that's it.
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah. And you know when you really hear stories and get to know people over, you know in some cases, and in my own experience, over a number of years,
00:20:11
Speaker
you any of those preconceived ideas just completely flipped on their head. oh um I think it's a small way of thinking that... And I think it's a dangerous way of thinking, too, that we decide that these particular groups of people, you know, under these particular parameters are not somehow deserving care or consideration.
00:20:37
Speaker
that's a That's a dangerous slope, I think. Yeah, I mean, it it comes back to the basic of, Gosh, like, I mean, we don't, I don't necessarily want to be referencing the Holocaust at the moment, but like it comes back to sort of, yeah, branding people, branding a certain group that they must be treated a certain way. And, and, and, and, and things like the Innocent Project, I think is not the name of it, the Innocent, and like that, that wouldn't exist if,
00:21:05
Speaker
these people, there wasn't some people who shouldn't be in those situations that are, in fact, because of different biases are in those situations. So you can't blanket, even if even if we could come to an agreement on, yes, everybody who is a murderer doesn't deserve even if we could come to that.
00:21:25
Speaker
Unfortunately, the justice system isn't the legal system isn't a justice system. You know, it's right it's not. And it has bias. And I mean, it's it.
00:21:39
Speaker
and I think there's definitely a documentary on what you just
Documenting Prison Hospice Programs
00:21:42
Speaker
described there. i'm not sure if there is a documentary on prison hospice, but I think there definitely should be. is. There is. Oh, my gosh. Well, yeah, actually, Edgar Behrens, who is one of my dear colleagues here at Humane, um he filmed a documentary called Prison Terminal about 12 years ago, perhaps.
00:22:02
Speaker
He spent six months um getting to know the guys at the Iowa State Penitentiary and following the hospice program there and Although he made it, I think, 12 years ago, was nominated for an Academy Award, actually.
00:22:18
Speaker
um We still use it as a teaching tool when we do presentations and conferences and such, because it's such a great example of what these programs can look like when a given program.
00:22:30
Speaker
um You know, the support and when they're believed in and championed. Yeah. And they can happen and they can be beautiful and they can give people dignity at the end of their lives. But it also, you know, it's really, really hard to quantify something like purpose. But, you know, for people who are working as caregivers and doing this incredible job. but They may not have been given an opportunity before in their lives to be a person who provides such an important, loving service to members of their community.
00:23:04
Speaker
Sometimes because people just didn't believe that they could be care because of things that they may have done. And that can be... That's exceptionally moving that when it comes down to it, even in hideous situations, humans are capable of caring for each other. And when we are given the opportunity to do so, we will.
00:23:26
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you you even, again, she but showing my ah my weirdness growing up as a child, but I used to love ruse. It's okay. I have it too. I think a lot of us do, honestly, because there would be the shows, and the Netflix shows like the Menendez brothers and the How to Make a Murderer and all these huge hit shows would not be hits if there wasn't all little, you know, closet people who love all these true crimes and stuff. and But even when you look at those, like those were, you know, people who now potentially could be released or, you know, is it it might blow on a sleep. But
00:24:02
Speaker
um And it's also to say that, like, I know in Norway, I'm from Ireland, so obviously Europe is a, but like in Norway, I believe they have a great rehabilitation program. And and ah from, again, for you know, facts, I always double check my facts because I'm a head like a sieve.
00:24:22
Speaker
But I believe like 20% or something um of along those lines of of people who are rehabilitated. i think this is sort of a new and statistic. and are Only 20% are likely to commit a crime within two years of a release, something like that.
00:24:38
Speaker
I mean, that's that's amazing. That means 80%.
00:24:42
Speaker
OK, I know it says within two years, he would hope, but 80 percent are not going back to a life of crying. Right. That's incredible. I mean, and you know, you mentioned there about compassion.
Trauma, Decision-making, and Compassion
00:24:55
Speaker
even the stories that I've read growing up about these crazy serial killers and stuff, mote the majority of them committed the crimes based on how they were raised as children, they're hit the history of abuse or mental illness in the family.
00:25:10
Speaker
But even even still, a lot of them not showed compassion for either their pi their mother, their father, a sibling. Like, well, they did these heinous crimes and these horrific things.
00:25:22
Speaker
they There was somebody in their life that they loved and cared for. So there was still love and compassion in there somewhere. They just had this illness, this thick sort of something that just.
00:25:34
Speaker
Yeah. And I think, too, when we're talking about people who have experienced a lot of trauma, who have experienced the results of, you know, their parents' trauma, intergenerational trauma, historical trauma, um you know, we're.
00:25:53
Speaker
When we're in survival mode yeah and we're just trying to cope, we don't always make good choices. We choose the next best thing that's going to make sure we get up and tomorrow and can feed ourselves and our family.
00:26:08
Speaker
um We're not thinking about much beyond that. I've definitely been in that place before. I think many people have. And so it's not it's not a far stretch to imagine if I'm person who,
00:26:20
Speaker
that if i'm a person who I have experienced X, Y, and Z things and I don't have any resources and I don't have support and I don't have this or that and nobody cares yeah um what what can happen. Yeah.
00:26:37
Speaker
Like sleep deprivation is is a huge one. I mean, i'm I'm very blessed in the sense that I've always had clothes on my back and food to put in my mouth and a roof over my head and stuff.
00:26:49
Speaker
But there's been certainly been times where I've had to either work through throughou the through the night or I don't have kids, so I haven't experienced that. But I've actually said to my friends, I'm like, I can actually understand how, and this is going to sound like a horrific thing say, but I can understand how a parent would lose mentally just black out with a child when if you if you were sleep deprived that much, like I could literally understand how you would reach your boiling point and you wouldn't mean to do anything, but you just snap and you you do something and then.
00:27:22
Speaker
yeah And I've gotten to know a lot of people who have at some point really gone into more detail about you know their their backstory and and the things that happened and it you know a lot of cases there's almost out-of-body kind of blackout experience yeah that happens and and of course that's not to excuse any of it no i um yeah we don't get to harm other people but I think it speaks to that idea again, that two things can be true at the same time. i think people are capable of doing horrible things to one another. I mean, we see it all the time.
00:28:02
Speaker
Every day. But that doesn't negate the fact that they may have ah huge capacity for care and empathy for other people. It's just not that simple.
Structure of the Prison Hospice Project
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah, it really, really isn't. So tell us, Laura, the actual, the so the hospice project, and are the prisoners caring for other prisoners? and And do you have outside people, like trained professionals like yourself, assisting them? Or do you lead and they assist you? Or how does the actual project work when when you've got us a prism prisoner that's on hospice? Like maybe give us a...
00:28:46
Speaker
it's What a day looks like or as a case looks like maybe. Sure. Well, the general overview is that we like to begin at a prison by doing a needs assessment.
00:28:58
Speaker
Every prison has a different population, a different culture, different dynamics between the people who live there and work there. um And so once we have a better understanding of the needs of a particular location, we can tailor our training program to better meet those needs.
00:29:16
Speaker
So the caregivers who we work with are incarcerated and they provide care for their incarcerated friends and chosen family community members.
00:29:28
Speaker
and And it's really important that these programs are here led. Yeah. and We really believe that the people who are closest to the problem are also closest to the solution, that people who are incarcerated together and share that lived experience are better equipped to understand the unique needs.
00:29:51
Speaker
We go in to provide training and support really just as a matter of refining a lot of pre-existing skills, um,
00:30:02
Speaker
You know, we can have an idea of the number of peer-led programs like this in the United States. Our best guess is that out of 1,800 United States prisons, there are probably 75 with a hospice or palliative care program.
00:30:23
Speaker
Probably half of those are peer-led. um But we go in and just sort of help to bolster the skill set and really empower caregivers in doing the work that they're doing.
00:30:39
Speaker
There are places that we go where there is no um caregiving group already in existence and and will help with that process, sort of the recruitment of people working in it.
00:30:53
Speaker
um But oftentimes there is already an informal group of folks who are providing care to other members in their community. And that's where we start. um And we have a curriculum that i think is really, really well-rounded.
00:31:09
Speaker
it covers a lot of practical hands-on care. So how to use certain bedside equipment, understanding the paperwork of health care, advanced directives, things like that.
00:31:22
Speaker
um But it also covers cultural competency and humility, spirituality, grief and loss, trauma-informed care, and healing-centered engagement. ah So it's very, very comprehensive and really trains caregivers to be able to provide care palliative care, geriatric care, end-of-life care, and also increasingly memory care.
00:31:48
Speaker
um i think the current statistics that I was just reading in a study are that people who are incarcerated have a 60% greater chance of developing Alzheimer's or some other kind of dementia. So that's definitely a need that we're that we're helping to address.
00:32:09
Speaker
Yeah. And these these peers, and I'm assuming, but again, assuming is always a bad thing. ah The question of being curious and is these peers, I presume and the majority of them, or maybe some of them do have medical training, but, you know, that they don't have necessarily access to drugs and various different obviously I'm sure there has to be some sort of safety protocols you know and and ensuring that they are in fact peers because you know I'm sure there's misleading relationships in in prisons and stuff where somebody is is you know not in fact part you know ah what is the word um
00:32:55
Speaker
uh part of the friendship or the relationship um voluntarily shall we say um you know is there ever a risk that the person i guess that the the quote-unquote caregiver could be of danger to the person they're allegedly trying to care is there ever anything with that or or or that maybe they're doing it to get a hold of medical equipment like is there maybe medical doesn't isn't a part of of the program you're um So, I mean, there's always a risk and and we do, we work closely with both correctional health care staff and the custody staff and to sort of mitigate those risks.
Recruitment and Community Dynamics
00:33:35
Speaker
I will say that, you know, sort of there's a twofold answer here. One is that these programs, informal or formal, however they begin, are very, very fragile.
00:33:50
Speaker
And for the people who are working as caregivers in them, that is not lost on them. And it's very, very, very and important that they are seen as professionals, that they are taken seriously, that they are respected and that there's knowledge about the care that they offer. Yeah. on So the second part of that answer is that, you know, in the best case scenario, if we're recruiting at a particular location, a new cohort of caregivers to be trained, it's it's really, really vital that caregivers already working in that group have some say in that.
00:34:40
Speaker
um Because, you know, we can participate in an interview alongside correctional staff and kind of look at everybody's paperwork and ask them questions. But at the end of the day, the people who have a much better idea about how a potential caregiver sort of exists within the community are the people in that community. Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:00
Speaker
um And so there been times for sure where, you know, maybe somebody applies and they may have ulterior motives. It's not usually around drugs. It's usually around this may look really good in front of the parole board or something of that nature. um You know, and that person may look really great on paper. And then, you know, the caregivers will say, well, you should know this, though.
00:35:22
Speaker
and And it's not always a deal breaker. We try to, I think, kind of weigh everything evenly, but it is important. good to know. um You know, the people who are caregivers who work together, they do a great job of kind of keeping each other in check and, you know, voicing concerns when we go in to provide ongoing support. Yeah.
00:35:47
Speaker
it's really, really important to them that these programs are sustained and believed in and that they don't disappear because they're so needed. yeah ill and then, you know, as far as kind of details are concerned, they vary by location because again, every prison's so different and has different needs, but but typically there are some some requirements that need to be met.
00:36:10
Speaker
um You know, I've seen requirements like you can't have any drug related infractions from the last three years or you don't have any charges related to like elder abuse, things like that.
00:36:22
Speaker
Okay. So, okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, really the whole concept really. when you boil it all down and think about it, it's, it's, it's as we've always done around death. It's, it's community look happier, its own community. I mean, that's really what it boils down to. Like, you know, being from Ireland, that's, you know, in, you know, i have a course on, on Irish traditions in the funeral space. And that was very much what it was, was, you know, one person,
00:36:50
Speaker
not necessarily professional, but but, you know, they had experience in this. They would maybe wash the body. Another person, the the carpenter in the town would make the coffin and, you know, some, the bartender, the the local bar would bring, supply the whiskey and just everyone coming together to to help this person to to die and then, you know, to be buried and and on into the to the next life, if that's, which in Ireland they did believe that. But, um you know, so it's really, that's what this project is.
Community Volunteers and Broader Grief Support
00:37:18
Speaker
to me boils down to is just yeah community looking after community and how can we best support that and and help make that happen um it's it's great yeah well thank you yeah and and it really is it's community helping community helping community because you know i realized i didn't speak to one of your questions earlier but you know we do have people out in the community who also come in and help people who are volunteer facilitators with us who may be hospice nurses social workers chaplains um really forming relationships with this caregiving community who's then taking care of their own and and not just in direct, you know, hands-on patient care, but also really addressing the grief and the lost needs of the entire population.
00:38:04
Speaker
so the work that they do is, it's it's really, really incredible. And even though it's painful and often thankless, they show up every time.
00:38:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. i mean, we need more people like that in the world. We need more compassion in the world, not less people. ah Exactly. Well, thank you much for joining us, Laura. This was super interesting and definitely something I've been dying to discuss. So and thank you so much for joining us and just educating us on this. And I hope more people out there will reach out to you or like will investigate, and you know, in their local areas, like what's going on with this and um and just generally start to be curious, people. Don't be judgmental, be curious.
00:38:48
Speaker
That's all I would say. Yes. you know Always be curious that that I don't know mindset is a yeah great place to start every time. that That's right. We love that.
00:38:59
Speaker
Thank you so much, Laurie. Great talking to you. Thank you so much.