Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
S6.E4 - Gates of Fire - Book 4
30 Plays16 days ago
Garrett leads our discussion of Book 4: “Arete” from Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel ofHe Battle of Thermopylae by Steven Pressfield.
- 0:38 - 7:35: Garrett recaps the book
- 7:36 - 18:32: The guys discuss their thoughts on the book.
- 18:33 - 26:25: What was more honorable, Arete lying to keep the baby alive, or remaining silent and the child being killed?
Next week we’ll discuss Book 5: “Polynikes” (pages 187 - 241).
You can buy the book on Amazon by clicking here.
You can also borrow it at your local library. Don’t have a library card, or unsure where your local library is? Search on Google Maps, or find your local library by clicking here.
Follow us on Instagram @booksbrotherspodcast
Email us at [email protected]
Please subscribe and give us a review! We would really appreciate it.
See you next week! Until then - read, reflect, and connect.
Recommended
Transcript
Ziones' Decision and Persian Attacks
00:00:41
Speaker
I really loved this story. So I'm going to give basically the Cliff Notes version of what happened, and then I can't wait to get into the discussion.
00:00:53
Speaker
So the chapter starts out or the book, there's just more battles that the Persians and are attacking ah more and more cities and Xerxes is getting more and more cities to simply surrender out of Phobos, which it's been fun to try to figure out like the Greek and how we get current term. So fear phobia.
00:01:14
Speaker
So, Ziones, meanwhile, longs for his cousin, Diamanchis, so much, he he tries to find her. He can't and decides, you know what? I just need to get her off my mind. Let's just get married.
Spartan Women and the Call to Arms
00:01:26
Speaker
He marries Rooster's cousin and within 10 months already has a baby and it ends up having two at the point by the time that this chapter takes place.
00:01:36
Speaker
This chapter, like the name implies, the focus is on Ariti, Dinahki's wife, who along with other women play a pivotal role actually in galvanizing the Spartans to deploy and fight the Persians. So the background with her, she has given birth to four girls, so no boys and thus no male heir to continue Dinahki's name, which comes very much into view in this section the persians attacked a city called trace and 10 000 greeks went to fight but upon arrival to the city they determined they were destined to lose so they all literally went home
00:02:15
Speaker
The city was ransacked. Women were raped. Babies were decapitated. Young men castrated to become eunuchs. It was just horrible. And it's the Spartan women who were pissed off and just were berating the men for just not even trying. They were even lobbying to fight themselves.
00:02:35
Speaker
Eventually the council of elders and Sparta do decide to fight. And this is
Rooster's Defiance and Family Crisis
00:02:38
Speaker
where the battle of Thermopylae is first introduced, where it's set, like this is what's going to happen. So here's the timeline. The full Greek army was to be assembled and arrive in two and a half weeks. That's how quickly they could get going. However, the Persians would be there in 10 days. Clearly that isn't enough time. So to hold them 300 all sire Spartans were to be an advanced party to make it to the gates first.
00:03:05
Speaker
All sires were soldiers who had sons to continue the family name, meaning this was literally a suicide mission. So, Ziones would not be going because his master, Dynakis, had no male heir with Eridi.
00:03:21
Speaker
But the story gets more interesting. Dinah Key's wife,
Arete's Confrontation and Negotiation
00:03:24
Speaker
Arete, her brother, a Spartan, had an affair with a non-Spartan who bore a bastard child, Rooster. So Rooster is Arete's nephew. We learned about Rooster in detail in last week's episode. It was the title of the literal book three. ah So I'll only give a brief recap. You can listen to last week's episode if you want a full description. So Rooster has been offered to become a full Spartan citizen.
00:03:51
Speaker
and he has declined his hatred towards Sparta for enslaving his mother's people as helots was too strong. He declines again when the 300 soldiers are being chosen. So typically people who refuse this offer are literally assassinated. The Spartans fear that if you turn down becoming a Spartan citizen, you aren't truly loyal to the Spartans and can turn against them with the enemy in the course of battle.
00:04:18
Speaker
He avoided assassination the first time, but he won't avoid it this time. The Cryptaea, which is a secret assassination group of Spartans, come and seize Rooster and his family, but Alexandros and Siones were there trying to convince him to change his mind. So the Cryptaea come and seize Rooster, Spartans and Squires, Siones were there. So by law, they were committing treason.
00:04:46
Speaker
So they all get arrested and taken to the secret trial, which isn't going to be much of a trial. Rooster has about minutes before he's executed, before his baby son is going to be killed, because the thought is even as a baby, when that son grows up, he'll resent the Spartans and seek revenge.
00:05:04
Speaker
So suddenly, out of nowhere, a readie appears, and in my opinion, pulls off one of the most badass truth bombs and negotiations. So typically, a woman is not allowed to be at one of these meetings at all. She defies commands to leave, even from her husband, Dining Keys, and declares that the baby boy is not Rooster's son, is her own husband's son. And it turns out
Political Tensions and Rooster's Fate
00:05:31
Speaker
he is.
00:05:32
Speaker
Dinah Keyes slept with Rooster's wife, and the son is his, not Rooster. So Dinah Keyes admits this, and ah immediately, Aridi negotiates a Spartan to sponsor the baby boy to become a Spartan and go through agage training when he turns six. She also negotiates the mom's release to raise the child in Aridi's home. Everyone complies, so at this point, everyone except for Rooster is safe from execution.
00:06:02
Speaker
So to wrap this up, Alexandros then steps in. So we think, all right, Rooster is done for. Alexandros then negotiates Rooster's survival. Rooster is so renowned with his fighting in the battlefield that the Hellettes, the Messians and Sparta, Alexandros is afraid that if the Cryptaea assassinate him, the Hellettes will likely revolt and there will be an uprising enjoying the Persians. But the Spartans are in a conundrum because they can't keep them in their midst, so Alexandros proposes to release him to the Persians.
00:06:35
Speaker
The Persians will gladly receive an escaped slave, and because of Rooster's hatred towards Sparta, the Persians likely will allow him to fight against the Spartans, at which time the Spartans can kill him on the battlefield. The king before Leonidas already deposed a Persia and is the best informant to Xerxes, so Rooster can't provide any new intelligence that Demeritos, the deposed king, hasn't already shared, so he's not a risk.
00:07:00
Speaker
So by releasing him, the helots will view him as stupid for not accepting the Spartan citizenship invitation. And they won't be upset with the Spartans since he's now seemingly fled Sparta. The Spartans agree. Rooster is spared again. And the chapter
Dinahki's Claim and Child's Future
00:07:16
Speaker
concludes with the Spartan elder overseeing the hearing and forming Dyna keys that he now is eligible. to be chosen as one of the 300 now that he has admitted to having a bastard son himself who will be sponsored into Spartan citizenship. So thank you for listening through that recap. What were your all's thoughts on this book?
00:07:42
Speaker
There's a lot to talk about, so much that happened, so much cool stuff. But first thing to note, the way I understood it is, Garrett, you made it sound like Diana Keys really did father the child. Uh-huh.
00:08:00
Speaker
But the way I saw it is it's questionable whether he did or not. Oh, really? And I don't think he actually did. Oh, really? Because when they're at the trial, there were several other men, soldiers who are saying whenever they go on war campaigns, Diana Keys was never, ever unfaithful. He is the most loyal, the most faithful soldier they've ever met.
00:08:31
Speaker
And I saw it as a reedy trying to save the child's life. And the only way to do that in a real way is to convince her husband to lie and say that he fathered the child. okay So even though Dainese says that he did it, I saw it as he was listening to his wife more than admitting to having sexual relations with that girl.
Moral Choices and Cultural Pressures
00:09:04
Speaker
Because hey f if he said no, then it would make his wife, Iridi, look like a complete fool for bodging into this ceremony. It would make her look like a liar. And there is a moment where she is just like looking into his eyes
00:09:24
Speaker
pleading and my, from how I understand it, pleading to Diana Keys to understand what she is trying to get him to do. And so I thought it was more of Diana Keys taking a fall, taking the blame for something he didn't do, just to one, save the child and two, back up his wife.
00:09:45
Speaker
I mean, I think it's clear too that he he would like to be chosen as a part of this 300 group too, though. So that might be part of his motivation. But why would the so you're saying the what's the what's Rooster's wife's name, Harmonia? Well, you're saying that she got it as well. Like she got like she was like, I need to lie to give my son a chance to live. I mean, she probably understood that culturally, but so Harmonia had to lie. I really had to lie and Dyna keys. So you're you're saying they're all lying. I think so.
00:10:23
Speaker
Yeah. Interesting. Okay. I may have misinterpreted here. and I mean, I could be in misinterpreting also, but that's how I understood it. But I mean, I just feel like, okay. I mean, we were just talking about in the last episode how, how he's like a very honorable and is the like token example of a Spartan. So what do you get? What are the Adams think? I feel like I'm being convinced that Matt's right. Also because he's really smart.
00:10:53
Speaker
I've read this twice and that did not cross my mind. I think Matt's right because he's Asian so he's smarter than I was. Oh my gosh.
00:11:02
Speaker
No, I think, I think it'd go either way. I think that you definitely, there was like a shadow of doubt that was cast when they talked about him being faithful during battles and such. You know, there's a lot of motivations that are going on. I think you could really go either way. I think both would, would make sense along the storyline. I think that the motivations for everything would make sense both ways. I mean, if you think about Iridi, so it's her nephew or no, her, this would be her great nephew.
00:11:32
Speaker
that the little boy is because it's the son of her nephew. And so there's definitely that familial tie with that. But at the same time, she even acknowledges that her so even stating that is saving the life of
Ancient vs. Modern Moral Dilemmas
00:11:48
Speaker
this baby, but essentially destiny her husband for death.
00:11:54
Speaker
because he now will be chosen. you know And she would know that, that she's basically setting her husband up to now be a part of the the Suicide Squad, essentially. Suicide Squad. Wow, I feel like I'm being convinced that the beauty of literature is you can interpret interpret it however you like. Yeah, everyone's everyone's right. And also as Matt Squire, he's definitely right.
00:12:24
Speaker
Okay. I would agree with what you were saying, Staelyn. She is essentially sending Diana Keys to his death by being able to fight that thermopoly. But I think at the same time, she probably understands that this is basically what all Spartan men have been training for their entire life. What Diana Keys would want?
00:12:45
Speaker
Yeah, right. He would want to be able to fight for his country at this battle to die for his country. Okay. I think you both. ah Yeah. Okay. I think I've, I've been convinced I was wrong because I'm also finding on Reddit. So, you know, that's a very good source of truth, but no, just, but just the fact that like, what we were talking about, like a Reedy is motivated and Dynakeez is motivated to keep that baby alive because That's their only male bloodline in a readies family. Anyway, so I was clearly wrong, but, um, Hey, this, this is why we do this book club to help us understand what we're reading more. But I was like, man, did a readie do this? Because yeah, she
Influence of Spartan Women
00:13:31
Speaker
wanted to preserve the family bloodline. Was she mad at dining keys for.
00:13:35
Speaker
committed adultery, so she wanted to expose him. So then he'd go, but yeah, yeah, it's interesting. So talk about like competing factors of honor, right? Like there's the honor of going to battle. There's the honor of fighting as a Spartan and defending your country and your family. And then there's the honor of being faithful to your wife. There's the honor of telling the truth. There's a lot of competing issues here on what the right decision is to do.
00:14:05
Speaker
That's fascinating. Chad GPT seems to think that that might be wrong. Chad GPT's been very wrong though. There's a lot of things that like I've like searched with this book and it's been very wrong. It really confused me with the Ooh Rooster's relationship because I was like, wait, he's the son of Ooh?
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah. Part of how I interpreted the story was oddly enough on Sunday, we're going through the book of Genesis and the Bible at church. And we read the, we're reading the story where God has promised, Hey, Abram and Sarah, even though y'all don't have any kids and you're in your eighties.
00:14:43
Speaker
I'm going to give you children and descendants that are more numerous than the stars in the sky. Well, it's been several more years since that promise and basically they try to take God's promise into their own hands. And, you know, nowadays we have different methods and medical interventions to help With infertility, which I know even for some of us in our group, this led that topic hits home, right? And Sarah, I bet, you know, back in the day, it was like dishonorable to not even have an air period, not just a son, but specifically a son. So being barren was, was like just not a good thing back then.
00:15:25
Speaker
And it was very common culturally to just like, here, take my female servant, sleep with her, have a kid with her so that you can have an air. So, um, committed in accident fidelity was prioritized over being childless in that day and age. And so yeah with, with a readie, she wasn't barren, but she had only, not only that obviously.
00:15:49
Speaker
It's great that they had four kids, but in the Spartan culture, not having a son, there was no male heir to continue the name. So that's why I was trying to figure out like, okay, is she trying to preserve this kid's life just because they need some male heir or is this truly Dynakee son? And so she's not upset with Dynakees because Like now they have a son and she approved this. She's like, yeah, go sleep with harmonia. But yeah, that totally makes sense because I was like, why would why would he sleep with someone who's not even a Spartan? Like if he's going to commit adultery. So that was some of where my thinking was where I was like, well, maybe a reading is OK with this because culturally the priority above fidelity is having a male heir, you know, and and certain cultures back then.
00:16:41
Speaker
I do think, though, that there probably is still some truth in that, that this elevates Dainiki's to a level, it's okay, he's got an heir now. And I don't think it would have, it doesn't seem like it's being viewed as this shameful thing that he's done.
00:16:57
Speaker
is what i'm yeah how I read that. Whether, again, he actually, like, I get it, whether he really is his child or not. Madon, the leader of the council does say on page 183, consider what you're saying. You defame your wife by attesting to this, quote, truth in yourself by swearing to this falsehood. i Oh, so they're even saying we know this isn't true, and you're saying it is anyway.
00:17:23
Speaker
Yeah, interesting, but they're saying like You you defame your wife, right? Defame that doesn't seem like the right word defame if you've committed adultery Am I interpreting this correctly Matt the resident? Yeah, I mean that sounds right If he's admitting to committing adultery, then yeah, he is ruining his wife And her reputation and her honor and his honor So I think there is some smattering of his view with the group, even if he does have a son now in his name, whether or not it's actually a son or not. but So I don't think he came off scot-free, Stalin, but are you saying he did? Is that what youre is that how you interpret it? I think that there, again, culturally speaking, it seems like the value of having a son is still placed on a pretty high pedestal.
00:18:12
Speaker
Cause I feel like a readies brother was not thought of fondly for pro creating rooster, right? Like that wasn't a like, Oh, sweet. Like you had a ah bastard son or whatever. Like that wasn't viewed positively, right? Yeah, I don't think so, but I couldn't say for sure. Well, maybe that can be our closing question. Do you think it's admirable?
00:18:36
Speaker
what Dineke's Anna Reedy did to lie for the sake of keeping this child alive. Because in that culture, it's it's not like there's the statue of limitations, right? Like we have in America. Like he's gonna have to admit to this boy being his son for the rest of his life. Like it can never, the truth can never be found out or else they'll be like, oh, this was a lie. Okay, let's kill this child.
00:19:03
Speaker
Right. I mean, that's my understanding of the cult, the law there. So to me, I'm like, people are going to view you as your character is is stained in this way. So what do you all think about that? Is that the right thing to do? It's a tough question. Is it the honorable thing? Also a tough question. You but you put in the situation where You're either making your wife look like a complete fool or you make yourself look like a complete fool. What would you guys do in this situation? Yeah, I think of like, yeah, if if your spouse comes or even so like even more modernized, your spouse comes home one day and it's like, hey, this is our kid now. I saved them from this horrible thing. But you do have to tell everyone that you had this child with someone else. It's oh.
00:20:00
Speaker
I don't know the scenario in which that will play out, but there probably is one. It's so hard to think of a modern day scenario. Jerry Seinfeld stuff, for sure. I'm sure that there is some component that, you know, we've already seen this a lot, Iridi. She kind of, similar to any keys, she kind of exemplifies like a strong woman.
00:20:24
Speaker
And I think in some ways, you know, if that's your spouse, there's got to be some pride that he would have to say like the compassion that she has for this baby or the care that she has for this baby that she would put our reputation in front of this. She would prioritize a child's life over our reputation. Yeah, i I think I agree. It would be it would be very hard. I think one thing that would make it easier is that the person that you're lying alongside with is your wife. So it's like, if you're going to keep a secret that it's that big, it's good to have that secret with your wife. You know what I mean? To have each other, because that's the best relationship to have a secret with. You know what I mean? In a very positive way. I think it's a good example of breaking a law
00:21:15
Speaker
Like breaking a moral code that breaks a law for something that you have a personal belief is the ultimate right thing to do,
Movie Adaptation and Cultural Reflection
00:21:25
Speaker
right? I mean, it even talks about that in the Bible. It's like respect the governments, respect the law, except if it comes directly in conflict with the Bible, like murder someone. It's like not going to do that. I'm using a very extreme example, but I guess it's kind of relevant to this story though.
00:21:45
Speaker
Another, another topic that I'm thinking of on, you know, off the cuff too is like, we live so individualistically, it's hard to understand like, how could you kill this baby son? But, you know, we read that. We do read that in the Bible where it's like the guard that let Peter or that the Peter escaped when the earthquake happened and he was about to kill himself. Cause he and he and Peter's like, don't do it.
00:22:12
Speaker
and they go home and he and his whole family were baptized. It's like, wait, they all got saved or Daniel and the lions then the guys like lie about Daniel and then the King throws him the liars and their families into the lions done to be killed. It's like, they didn't do anything. They were innocent.
00:22:32
Speaker
And we view it very individualistically. I'm not saying it's right, but I also am acknowledging that family collectivist cultures where it's like you are an extension of your family unit. You are an extension of the community. You are an extent. You are Spartan, right? Like that character who died while being whipped. It's like your body is not your own. You are Spartan. Like you are for the Spartan cause.
00:22:57
Speaker
I don't know. I just love this, this story and just thinking of all the different twists and turns. I thought the way they portray the role of women in Spartan society was really neat. As they were talking about the Cryptaea, Zionis talks to a Reedy. That's in book three, actually, at a reading's house. Yes. So a Reedy asks the Zionis who runs the country, essentially. And he responds.
00:23:27
Speaker
king in the E force. And she's like, Oh, is that what you think? Like, it's actually the women who tell the men what to do. And they're like, in charge of the crypto, the secret society that makes bad people disappear and are never found again. And then this example of a really showing up at this trial and winning her argument It was pretty amazing. They run a lot of the ins and outs, the day to day life of Sparta. And there's a brief part of it where they are also extremely disciplined in keeping their bodies physically fit because they know they had to produce strong, physically fit children. So they're extremely good runners too.
00:24:23
Speaker
They are confident. They're witty. They're smart. They're funny. And they're basically in control of everything. That's good. I mean, you can kind of see that how how they talk to the men and they get their way, essentially. Yeah. Was she the one whose husband died and like went to the wrestling pit?
00:24:50
Speaker
where all the guys are like naked wrestling each other and she's like, who's going to marry me? yeah Is that her? Yeah. It's her. Yeah. She like, I'm telling you, she's, she's awesome.
00:25:02
Speaker
You guys have any other thoughts on the book? Have you guys talked about the movie much? I'm just thinking because so many more people are going to be familiar with the movie than the book. And I'm trying to put characters from this book into characters that I think they may be represented by in the movie. Obviously, some of them are the same. The roosters are going to be the hunchback dude in the movie.
00:25:28
Speaker
I mean, maybe, maybe. Yeah. That's kind of what I thought whenever they introduced him. Yeah. I thought i honestly thought Zionis was going to be because they're talking about how he was like deformed. Well, and you then you were just talking about the women and the main Leonidas, his wife was a really strong woman character in the movie. So it's just kind of interesting to try to like, I need to watch the movie again because it's been a while.
00:25:54
Speaker
She goes to a trial or she goes to the, I don't know, whatever. Yeah, been account of voters yeah she she got into political fight, you know, but that was that was a super, super cool movie. And that's we we should make some links back to it because a lot of people will probably be able to better understand if they haven't read the book, especially what we're saying. I was thinking we should watch it at the Airbnb on our retreat.
00:26:21
Speaker
Yeah, let's do