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Female Led Relationships
51 Plays3 years ago
Elle fills in for Savannah in this discussion about the merits and dynamics of Female-Led Relationships, the polar opposite of the power dynamics present in traditional relationships, and how to vet for "biddable" men.
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Introduction and Sponsorships
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00:01:44
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00:01:57
Speaker
What's up, queens?
00:01:58
Speaker
Welcome to the Female Dating Strategy Podcast, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet.
00:02:03
Speaker
I'm Ro.
00:02:04
Speaker
I'm Lilith.
00:02:05
Speaker
And I'm Elle, filling in for Savannah.
00:02:07
Speaker
Yes, Savannah's still out, so she's out for the next couple of weeks.
00:02:10
Speaker
We are wishing her well.
00:02:12
Speaker
Yeah, and you can't shut down the separate at this time because we had Elle on the podcast.
00:02:16
Speaker
Uh-oh.
00:02:17
Speaker
Because separate's already shut down, so... Yeah, well, yeah.
00:02:22
Speaker
Uh-oh.
00:02:23
Speaker
Stay mad.
00:02:26
Speaker
So why is Elle here?
Female-Led Relationships: An Overview
00:02:27
Speaker
What are we talking about today, ladies?
00:02:28
Speaker
So I'm not really here for any political related reasons.
00:02:31
Speaker
So today we're going to talk about a relational dynamic that I've always been fascinated with, and it's female led relationships.
00:02:38
Speaker
And one way or another, this would always like pop up on my Reddit feed and everything.
00:02:43
Speaker
And this is important to me personally, because, you know, at one point I had my red pill era, it was small, it was a small window and it talked about like male dominance and male leading.
00:02:51
Speaker
So obviously like intellectually curious, I looked up a female led relationship.
00:02:55
Speaker
And the definition of it is, as the name suggests, it's a relationship where a woman is in the dominant position, enjoying authority over her partner.
00:03:01
Speaker
And the man is considered a submissive partner.
00:03:04
Speaker
And
00:03:04
Speaker
This doesn't mean like she's pegging him all the time, although that component can exist.
00:03:08
Speaker
Really, it's just about how the woman makes all or most of the decisions regarding the relationship and exerts more authority over her male partner and steers the relationship forward.
00:03:17
Speaker
And the man just kind of is on the receiving end and he's kind of just being pampered and loved by his woman and just worships the ground she walks on.
00:03:24
Speaker
And, you know, as a woman to be submissive in her relationship, the man is the one that I'm just going to cook and clean.
00:03:30
Speaker
You lead the way.
00:03:31
Speaker
I'll follow your lead.
00:03:32
Speaker
So that's what that is, y'all.
00:03:33
Speaker
Just some context as to why we decided to make this episode behind the scenes for female political strategy or other podcasts that we have with Elle, me and Ro.
00:03:41
Speaker
Whenever I talk about my relationship, you know, Elle would always have a lot of questions for me.
00:03:45
Speaker
Like, are you in a female-led relationship, Lil?
00:03:48
Speaker
I've never heard this phrase or this word, but to me, it just seems more intuitive, actually.
00:03:53
Speaker
At least not until recently.
00:03:55
Speaker
I didn't see it as like a political thing.
00:03:56
Speaker
I just thought it made more sense for me to make the majority of the decisions in my relationship.
00:04:01
Speaker
That's just how I like to live my life.
00:04:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:03
Speaker
Unlike the conventional romance where a man is being the dominant figure, it's the woman kind of just calling all the shots.
00:04:09
Speaker
And what led me to ask this question was, you know, Marker, if you want to cut this out, you can totally
Navigating Relationship Preferences
00:04:13
Speaker
cut this out.
00:04:13
Speaker
But...
00:04:14
Speaker
Lilith would tell me some dynamics where she had, but one where there was a male in her vicinity and she was like, yeah, just like my boyfriend, I just put him to work.
00:04:21
Speaker
I was just like, do this, do this, do this, do this.
00:04:23
Speaker
And he just smiled like a puppy.
00:04:24
Speaker
He kind of just did it.
00:04:25
Speaker
And I'm just queen.
00:04:26
Speaker
Wait, what?
00:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's how men are.
00:04:30
Speaker
If you give them a task, they love it.
00:04:31
Speaker
They love being useful.
00:04:33
Speaker
Men love to be useful for their queen.
00:04:35
Speaker
And I'm kind of, to me, that's just normal.
00:04:37
Speaker
And so when I meet women that haven't harnessed this power yet, I just want them to know that they too can have this power, right?
00:04:43
Speaker
I don't have magical powers or anything.
00:04:45
Speaker
This is like a skill.
00:04:46
Speaker
This is a lifestyle.
00:04:47
Speaker
Anyone can do it if they want to.
00:04:49
Speaker
Not all women want that kind of dynamic.
00:04:51
Speaker
And that's fair enough.
00:04:52
Speaker
Yeah, I was going to chime in because I was like, this sounds like a lot of work for me.
00:04:55
Speaker
And as a person who has younger siblings, I'm more or less like, I don't want to be the older sibling to my spouse or my partner.
00:05:02
Speaker
Because that's my problem.
00:05:03
Speaker
Like, because I know what you're saying.
00:05:04
Speaker
Like, I have brothers, like I have younger brothers, like I boss them around all the time.
00:05:08
Speaker
And that's just sort of the dynamic that exists when you have, you know, an age order.
00:05:11
Speaker
But at the same time, I don't necessarily want that in a romantic partner.
00:05:15
Speaker
I don't know.
00:05:16
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's fair enough, right?
00:05:17
Speaker
I mean, there's some women who are like, I want a man to lead me.
00:05:20
Speaker
And a lot of I find religious women especially are like, I want a man to like lead me spiritually.
00:05:24
Speaker
And I mean, I'm not going to tell her how to live her life or that she's wrong for wanting that type of relationship.
00:05:31
Speaker
I'm just, first of all, concerned for her safety, because that sort of thing often lends itself to, you know, an abusive man, for example.
00:05:37
Speaker
Secondly, you know, when I describe my relationship dynamic, a lot of women think of that as just a lot of emotional labor that they don't want to deal with.
00:05:43
Speaker
And that's fair enough.
00:05:44
Speaker
But to me, this sort of relationship dynamic just makes intuitive sense for me.
00:05:48
Speaker
Okay.
00:05:48
Speaker
So this isn't to say that he has no say in the relationship, right?
00:05:51
Speaker
So from the opposite side, I am that energetically lazy person in the relationship.
00:05:56
Speaker
I'd rather figure out what to say in order to get what I want in the relationship rather than leading him.
00:06:01
Speaker
I don't want to tell him what to do.
00:06:03
Speaker
I'm definitely that receiver.
00:06:04
Speaker
I'm
Leadership in Relationships and Work
00:06:05
Speaker
not a subject, right?
00:06:05
Speaker
I'm not submissive.
00:06:07
Speaker
I'm just...
00:06:07
Speaker
pamper me.
00:06:08
Speaker
I sure I'll clean and I make boss decisions all day at work.
00:06:12
Speaker
I'm like high energy alpha type, you know, get shit done all day at work.
00:06:16
Speaker
When I come home, I want to just relax and I want him to make all the decisions and I want him to like check in and say, Hey, these are the three options I have.
00:06:25
Speaker
Which one do you want?
00:06:25
Speaker
And I just want to be like B. So how does it play out in your world dynamic or how do you see it playing out?
00:06:31
Speaker
So at work, I also am a manager.
00:06:33
Speaker
So I am in a leadership role at work as well.
00:06:36
Speaker
And I like that role.
00:06:37
Speaker
And I don't even see it necessarily as work because one of the things I like about being in leadership is delegating undesirable tasks, especially to men.
00:06:44
Speaker
And you know what?
00:06:45
Speaker
Like men love being useful if you just tell them, oh, thank you so much.
00:06:47
Speaker
Or, oh, my God.
00:06:49
Speaker
In my relationship, I might be like, oh, you're such a good boy.
00:06:51
Speaker
Like, kind of jokingly, I wouldn't say that at work, right?
00:06:53
Speaker
But, you know, just showing some kind of appreciation.
00:06:55
Speaker
Men just feel so much pride in themselves.
00:06:57
Speaker
You know, self-esteem comes from esteemable acts.
00:07:00
Speaker
And so when men do... This is like a 12-step program thing, actually.
00:07:06
Speaker
Or one of the lines in the 12-step program.
00:07:08
Speaker
I've never been in a 12-step program, but I learned this actually from Hannah Borelli on Twitter.
00:07:12
Speaker
And so I was like, Queen, this really resonated with me because if you give a man a task and just be like, oh, thank you.
00:07:19
Speaker
Oh, you did a really good job on that or something like that.
00:07:21
Speaker
The male ego, you know, they swell with pride, right?
00:07:24
Speaker
They like to be told that they're a good boy.
00:07:25
Speaker
And so I see it almost as like sort of hacking male psychology or the male ego in a way and kind of redirecting it for my own benefit.
00:07:34
Speaker
Same thing in my relationship.
00:07:35
Speaker
Like if I say I like this, I won't even tell him what to do.
00:07:38
Speaker
I'll just be like, I like this product or I like this restaurant.
00:07:40
Speaker
I like this and this.
00:07:41
Speaker
Him trying to please me and me being grateful for that makes him happy.
00:07:45
Speaker
Makes both of us happy.
00:07:46
Speaker
So it's a sense of purpose.
00:07:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:48
Speaker
So you're feeling his sense of purpose while also getting everything you want because you're just getting what you want.
00:07:53
Speaker
Exactly.
00:07:54
Speaker
So there's a few reasons why a woman would seek a female-led relationship, right?
Choosing the Right Partner for Female-Led Dynamics
00:07:59
Speaker
So just like Lilith said, some women like a female-led relationship because they get to control things from finances to kitchen management.
00:08:05
Speaker
Women also get the opportunity to mold a man to whoever she wants him to be.
00:08:09
Speaker
Imagine creating your ideal man, ensuring that he meets your expectations.
00:08:13
Speaker
I mean, it's not about taking.
00:08:14
Speaker
OK, OK.
00:08:15
Speaker
I want to have some caveats here.
00:08:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:17
Speaker
So that's like your male hacking thing.
00:08:18
Speaker
I want to have a few caveats.
00:08:19
Speaker
First of all, yeah, you got to like have some kind of system to decide, you know, some men are just less biddable than others, let's just say.
00:08:25
Speaker
And by biddable, you mean like direction taking?
00:08:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:28
Speaker
Like, you know how like certain dog breeds are.
00:08:30
Speaker
I hate to compare men to dog breeds.
00:08:31
Speaker
Actually, just kidding.
00:08:32
Speaker
I love it.
00:08:32
Speaker
But it's the most natural.
00:08:36
Speaker
I feel like we're really skirting the line.
00:08:41
Speaker
But like, you know how certain dog breeds like huskies, for example, they're not very biddable.
00:08:45
Speaker
They want to do their own thing.
00:08:46
Speaker
They're much more difficult to train.
00:08:48
Speaker
Whereas, you know, golden retrievers or like German shepherds or Dobermans, they're very biddable.
00:08:52
Speaker
They love their human.
00:08:53
Speaker
They're really eager to please.
00:08:55
Speaker
They love, you know, border collies are another one.
00:08:57
Speaker
They like doing stuff with you, like that kind of stuff, right?
00:08:59
Speaker
It's not about being obedient.
00:09:00
Speaker
It's about being more pro-social, so to speak.
00:09:04
Speaker
Whereas, you know, huskies and terriers, for example, can be kind of contrarian.
00:09:07
Speaker
They want to go off and do their own thing.
00:09:08
Speaker
Right.
00:09:08
Speaker
You know, not just men, actually women can be like this, too.
00:09:11
Speaker
I'd say social animals, you know, humans are social animals.
00:09:15
Speaker
Dogs are social animals, even horses and like goats and cows and stuff.
00:09:18
Speaker
You know, they each have their own personalities.
00:09:20
Speaker
Right.
00:09:20
Speaker
Intelligent animals each have their own personalities and some might be more dominant than others.
00:09:24
Speaker
Some might be less dominant than others.
00:09:25
Speaker
That's just a sort of group dynamic kind of thing.
00:09:28
Speaker
And so, yeah, not all men are suitable for the female-led relationship if they're not, you know, biddable, let's just say.
00:09:35
Speaker
Like, their personality is not inclined to being led emotionally.
00:09:39
Speaker
Their personality is not inclined to, like, being group dynamic oriented, let's just say.
00:09:43
Speaker
Okay.
00:09:44
Speaker
Okay.
00:09:44
Speaker
So, you know, men who are really selfish, for example, might not be a good fit for this.
00:09:48
Speaker
And the other thing is that the whole like molding a man thing, you kind of have to find a guy who's already like 80 to 90% of where you want him to be.
00:09:55
Speaker
And, you know, has fundamental values that are, you know, obviously not misogynistic and so on.
00:10:00
Speaker
A lot of men are just too misogynistic to be able to be a good fit for this.
00:10:03
Speaker
So you have to choose carefully.
00:10:05
Speaker
I just feel like this all sounds like friend zone material to me.
00:10:08
Speaker
When I think about all of the guys that I didn't date who were otherwise really nice partners, it was actually because of stuff like this where I felt like, you know, I don't feel attracted to you because I feel like I have to manage you too much.
00:10:20
Speaker
Right.
00:10:20
Speaker
Because to me, like that's an extra emotional and mental burden.
00:10:24
Speaker
I like men who I want to say like take charge because take charge to me is almost like overused as a descriptor for like an alpha male type.
00:10:31
Speaker
And I'm not even really talking about an alpha male type.
00:10:33
Speaker
Or like an abusive man.
00:10:34
Speaker
A lot of abusive men are take charge types.
00:10:36
Speaker
Or an abusive man are like that, right?
00:10:38
Speaker
There's like a medium between I think what you guys are talking about and then like the alpha male extreme where I like a guy who just sees what needs to be done and does it and is like very helpful, but doesn't need me to guide him to do stuff.
00:10:48
Speaker
Because if I have to do it, this feels very, very much, you know, this is just being an over responsible daughter syndrome.
00:10:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:54
Speaker
And I don't like it.
00:10:56
Speaker
So the other thing to keep in mind, actually, is that my leadership style at work is actually very similar to my leadership style in my relationships and that I'm not like a micromanaging type of person.
Empathy and Leadership
00:11:07
Speaker
I like to actually confer authority usually to other women on the team.
00:11:11
Speaker
Like I'll have a general task, for example, that needs to be done.
00:11:14
Speaker
And I'll assign a competent woman on my team to kind of spearhead that task and she'll do the nuts.
00:11:18
Speaker
So you delegate very well.
00:11:20
Speaker
I delegate smaller pieces of authority, so to speak.
00:11:23
Speaker
And so I'm pretty hands off in that way.
00:11:25
Speaker
So I'm not a super top down, like micromanaging everything.
00:11:28
Speaker
I'm involved, you know, check in with my team.
00:11:30
Speaker
Oh, how are you guys doing?
00:11:31
Speaker
You know, let me know if you need anything.
00:11:33
Speaker
If they're doing something a certain way and I do it slightly differently, but the result is still good, then I won't swoop in and tell them to do it differently.
00:11:39
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:11:40
Speaker
And I'm sort of the same way in my relationship.
00:11:42
Speaker
There's certain like general targets that we need to meet, so to speak.
00:11:45
Speaker
And then, you know, it's up to him to figure out how to meet those.
00:11:48
Speaker
But I don't like to do the whole micromanaging of like the laundry needs to be done this way or the cooking needs to be done this way.
00:11:53
Speaker
You know, all I'm saying is we need to have dinner every day and how we go about doing that, you know, whether he takes me out at a restaurant or we cook a meal together or whatever, you know, it's we're kind of flexible about that.
00:12:03
Speaker
The ability to think through a problem to completion is very important to me in a partner.
00:12:08
Speaker
Same.
00:12:08
Speaker
Yeah, like I don't like men who need to be micromanaged and, you know, handheld.
00:12:13
Speaker
I don't like employees like this either, actually, where I have to like with employees, at least maybe not with a relationship, but they come into a sales department with no skills at all.
00:12:21
Speaker
You know, train them up from top to bottom, you know, get them to where they want to be.
00:12:25
Speaker
But other than that, I more or less give them free reign to, you know, meet their targets the way that, you know, as long as they're meeting their targets and, you know, generally I let them kind of lead their own self-improvement, if that makes sense.
00:12:37
Speaker
Right.
00:12:38
Speaker
Or, you know, manage their time and their sales schedule the way that they want.
00:12:42
Speaker
Same thing with men.
00:12:42
Speaker
It's I don't want to hold his hand on like how to chop an onion in every step of how to cook something or how to clean something.
00:12:48
Speaker
He needs to be able to have some problem solving skills.
00:12:50
Speaker
The same thing that I expect in employees.
00:12:52
Speaker
So there seems to be like after my rabbit hole research, I mean, this started out as like a midnight YouTube exploration thing to like an actual curiosity of mine.
00:13:02
Speaker
So there's like a spectrum of the FLR relationships.
00:13:06
Speaker
So Lilith, it looks like you're kind of on the lower end where it's not necessarily, you're not controlling every single thing he does.
00:13:12
Speaker
So like what he wears and everything, which is on the middle to higher end.
00:13:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:15
Speaker
That's weird as fuck to me.
00:13:16
Speaker
No.
00:13:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:18
Speaker
Whereas like I have like a standard of like, as long as he's dressing appropriately for the event that we're going to, I'm not going to tell him specifically what articles of clothing to wear.
00:13:27
Speaker
I'll just be like, you look good.
00:13:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:28
Speaker
Or no, you don't look at, you don't look good.
00:13:31
Speaker
You should get something else kind of thing, you know?
00:13:33
Speaker
So like on that lower end too, like, do you find yourself setting the pace of the relationship?
00:13:37
Speaker
What you want is you're kind of bringing him in line with what you want rather than communicating it to him and letting him figure out.
00:13:43
Speaker
Did you see what I'm saying?
00:13:43
Speaker
Like, are you setting the pace of the relationship?
00:13:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:46
Speaker
The general pace of the relationship.
00:13:48
Speaker
So, you know, when me and my boyfriend first met, he wasn't actually particularly pushy for sex.
00:13:52
Speaker
Sometimes we'd kind of like fool around and maybe make out and stuff.
00:13:55
Speaker
And then I would be like, you know,
00:13:57
Speaker
if we have sex, it'll like change things or I don't want to go down this path or say like not tonight or, you know, I don't know.
00:14:02
Speaker
I'll have a reason for whatever reason I don't want to have sex.
00:14:05
Speaker
Right.
00:14:05
Speaker
And then he'll be like, okay.
00:14:06
Speaker
And then back off.
00:14:07
Speaker
And then later on, if I, you know, indicate that I'm in the mood or initiate things with him, and then he's like, obviously excited that I want it.
00:14:14
Speaker
Right.
00:14:15
Speaker
You know?
00:14:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:16
Speaker
I generally set the pace on like whether sex happens, you know, the speed of the relationship in terms of like commitment and stuff.
00:14:22
Speaker
I was the one pretty much guiding that pace or I don't know.
00:14:25
Speaker
It was like he was motivated to sort of.
00:14:28
Speaker
He's willing to jump through hoops for you.
00:14:29
Speaker
It seems like tell me what to do and I'll do it kind of thing.
00:14:32
Speaker
Exactly.
00:14:33
Speaker
He was motivated to commit and I was sort of the more hesitant one.
00:14:37
Speaker
And then eventually I, you know, he kind of proved himself to me.
00:14:40
Speaker
And then I was like, okay, I'm convinced you persuaded me.
00:14:43
Speaker
I'm impressed now.
00:14:44
Speaker
Actually, he did some things that impressed me.
00:14:46
Speaker
So, okay.
00:14:46
Speaker
So walk me through it.
00:14:47
Speaker
You're on your first couple of dates, right?
00:14:49
Speaker
Like what gives you an indicator where a guy is a golden retriever as opposed to like...
00:14:53
Speaker
a husky?
00:14:53
Speaker
Like, what are some small things that you're like, are you testing him?
00:14:56
Speaker
Are you watching him?
00:14:58
Speaker
So a good one is just for me to talk about things that I like that I'm passionate about.
00:15:03
Speaker
So say I might, oh, I might talk about dogs and fostering dogs, or I might talk about gardening, or, you know, the sports that I like or something like that.
00:15:11
Speaker
And if he's the kind of guy that is biddable, he'll be like, Oh, tell me more.
00:15:15
Speaker
Like, how long have you been into this?
00:15:16
Speaker
You know, I have this gardening problem, or what advice would you give or something like that?
00:15:20
Speaker
that's a good indicator that he's more amenable to this type or he's maybe a better fit for that type of relationship whereas if he is the kind of guy to you know dismiss my interests or belittle them or just try to change the subject my favorite actually is when he treats me like as a sort of like an expert in that field and is like asking for advice and asking my opinion on things if a guy is trying to mansplain or
00:15:45
Speaker
The sort of guy basically where like I'll be an expert in something and he knows nothing about it, but he's trying to mansplain things about that thing to me.
00:15:52
Speaker
That's a bad sign.
00:15:53
Speaker
An immediate swipe left.
00:15:57
Speaker
Leave the date.
00:15:57
Speaker
Goodbye.
00:15:58
Speaker
Yeah, leave the date.
00:15:59
Speaker
That's an immediate sign that he's not going to be a good fit.
00:16:02
Speaker
Okay.
00:16:03
Speaker
So that to me sounds more like he's just an asshole.
00:16:05
Speaker
Right.
00:16:06
Speaker
Whereas like, I think a mansplainer, I think is kind of a no, no for everyone here.
00:16:09
Speaker
Right.
00:16:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:11
Speaker
But I think that's interesting way that you put it where he's curious, but I think I would even put it like even maybe a step further where a guy would not only be curious about how you do it.
00:16:20
Speaker
I think he would want you to like teach him.
00:16:22
Speaker
Whereas I think like even a very alpha dominant, like leader oriented man would be curious, but kind of just like leave it at that and leave it at curiosity as opposed to just being like,
00:16:33
Speaker
you're so amazing.
00:16:34
Speaker
Like, please teach me.
00:16:35
Speaker
Like maybe, I don't know.
00:16:37
Speaker
Where's Ro in all of this?
00:16:39
Speaker
This is also foreign to me.
00:16:40
Speaker
Maybe this is my problem with the guys I date because I tend to like guys who I think are going to be an upgrade on my life.
00:16:46
Speaker
If a guy shows some kind of initiative or knowledge in a topic, as long as he's not like completely dominating the conversation, like I'm a person that likes to listen.
00:16:54
Speaker
And I like a guy that listens to me.
00:16:55
Speaker
Right.
00:16:56
Speaker
And so I
00:16:57
Speaker
What I've found is that with men early on, they're really into the fact that I can talk to them in that level.
00:17:02
Speaker
And then somewhere along the line, either it's an ego trip or whatever, it starts to create like a power struggle or a clash, right?
00:17:10
Speaker
So maybe some of these things that you guys are talking about, there's maybe some, I don't want to say like red flags, but like yellow flags are things to understand about differences in personalities and how you approach problems or explaining topics or topics you like.
00:17:21
Speaker
I'm a person, if I like something, I love to talk about it excitedly.
00:17:25
Speaker
So I usually give other people space to do that, right?
00:17:27
Speaker
As long as it's not like they're trying to come across like condescending.
00:17:30
Speaker
And so the guys I date, I don't really mind if they strong opinions on something, if it seems like well-researched or they understand the topic.
00:17:37
Speaker
But I can kind of see what you guys are talking about.
00:17:39
Speaker
We're like, yeah, sometimes that means that type of person is not really biddable later on because they're like, well, I'm going to figure it out.
00:17:45
Speaker
Right.
00:17:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:46
Speaker
I'm also an I'm going to figure it out person.
00:17:48
Speaker
So then you can end up clashing heads all the time.
00:17:50
Speaker
Right.
00:17:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:52
Speaker
I mean, you brought up such an interesting point.
00:17:54
Speaker
I'd like to talk about the things that I'm passionate about.
00:17:56
Speaker
And I also like listening to people talk about the things that they're passionate about.
00:18:00
Speaker
I definitely am biased in favor of women in this area.
00:18:03
Speaker
Like I will listen to.
00:18:04
Speaker
women talk about the things that they love for like hours just i'll be the one asking questions and asking advice and you know tell me more kind of thing right again i also like to have men in my life who i consider to be an upgrade and so if he knows something that i don't and it's something i actually want to learn that's the time i'll actually let him mansplain a little bit if he's actually an expert because some men vastly overplay they oversell right overestimate it
00:18:30
Speaker
Story of my fucking life.
00:18:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's the red flag for me when I start to feel like they're overselling whatever bullshit they're saying.
00:18:37
Speaker
And I'm like, aha, right?
00:18:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:39
Speaker
That's when you start to get that little niggling that this person is going to be.
00:18:43
Speaker
With some men, like, yeah, I can kind of tell if they're bullshitting me if they're overselling.
Social Dynamics and Relationship Energy
00:18:47
Speaker
And then there's other men who are a little bit more quieter.
00:18:49
Speaker
They might be an expert on something, but they won't go off on a mansplaining tangent unless you almost like have to, you know, ask the right questions and not
00:18:56
Speaker
quite like pulling teeth to get it out of them, but like you kind of have to want to take the initiative to be like, teach me this thing kind of thing.
00:19:01
Speaker
And then they'll be like, okay, you know, since you asked, I will.
00:19:04
Speaker
But the men who voluntarily just go off on long tirades that you didn't ask for that, or that you're not interested.
00:19:09
Speaker
And the other red flag is if they're going this tired and I'm showing signs that I'm not interested, like if I'm looking away from appearing bored and he just keeps going or doesn't seem to notice or care, that's another red flag.
00:19:19
Speaker
A good sign is
00:19:20
Speaker
is if he's talking about something and you're appearing bored and then he tries to change the subject or like ask a question or try, you know, he's going, I'm losing her guys.
00:19:28
Speaker
Like, you know, trying to fix, I guess, the conversation from going down.
00:19:33
Speaker
Displaying social awareness.
00:19:35
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:19:35
Speaker
I like men who display social awareness.
00:19:37
Speaker
An evolved extrovert.
00:19:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:39
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:19:40
Speaker
I do too.
00:19:41
Speaker
I think there's like, there's the category of dominant men and then there's a domineering men where they're neither like biddable or dominant.
00:19:48
Speaker
They just fucking suck.
00:19:49
Speaker
Right.
00:19:50
Speaker
Where they're imposing.
00:19:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:53
Speaker
But it's like they just suck as a person.
00:19:55
Speaker
They're not curious.
00:19:56
Speaker
And if they are, they're nosy and they're trying to find like plot holes or point out flaws and what it is that you're talking about.
00:20:01
Speaker
They're just shitty dudes.
00:20:03
Speaker
They're just haters.
00:20:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:04
Speaker
But in the spectrum of like good dudes where you have that like energy dynamic between like being bittable and being like a good leader in the relationship.
00:20:12
Speaker
I think the way it plays out, I see it being a little bit differently.
00:20:15
Speaker
I've never been around a guy that is like the bittable kind.
00:20:19
Speaker
I kind of find myself in the presence of guys that love to lead and teach.
00:20:23
Speaker
And if you are, you know, good at something, they'll kind of lead the way in learning from you.
00:20:28
Speaker
It's more of like, wow, that brings value to my life.
00:20:30
Speaker
Tell me more.
00:20:31
Speaker
Whereas like I see the bittable guy being more like, wow, you're literally like goddess incarnate.
00:20:36
Speaker
Tell me more.
00:20:36
Speaker
I'm so lucky to be in your presence, which are two very different energies to me.
00:20:40
Speaker
It's like more of a, I don't know.
00:20:41
Speaker
I just see it playing out differently.
00:20:43
Speaker
Yeah, I can kind of tell the ones, the difference.
00:20:45
Speaker
Here's another important point.
00:20:47
Speaker
Whenever I talk about this, people always try to compare it to like femdom pornified shit.
00:20:51
Speaker
This isn't like about, you know, pegging the guy or like, I actually kind of don't like the guys who kind of approach it in a way that I see as sort of fetishizing, like, oh my gosh, you're such a queen.
00:21:00
Speaker
Let me worship you kind of thing.
00:21:02
Speaker
So yeah, let's clarify, we're not sexualizing this, right?
00:21:05
Speaker
Like it's really purely just the relational dynamic, right?
00:21:08
Speaker
Exactly.
00:21:08
Speaker
The kind of guys who are like, tell me more, queen, let me suck your toes.
00:21:11
Speaker
Like those kind of weird me out.
00:21:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:17
Speaker
You know, those guys weird me out.
00:21:18
Speaker
No, I like guys that are just sort of like reason number 855 why the Reddit got shut down.
00:21:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:24
Speaker
So those kinds of guys weird me out.
00:21:26
Speaker
I like the guys that are just sort of like normal, you know, group oriented, you know, they usually are like younger siblings, I will say, maybe because they're used to
00:21:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:59
Speaker
This is one thing about my boyfriend that made me go from seeing him as just a friend to a boyfriend, actually.
00:22:05
Speaker
Because all this time, I've never dated another guy in sales.
00:22:08
Speaker
But he actually received the same customer-focused sales training that I received at the workplace where we both worked.
00:22:14
Speaker
Instead of trying to scam people, it's more about, oh, how do I meet the needs of this customer?
00:22:19
Speaker
It trains you to at least think about the needs of the other person and how to meet those kind of things.
00:22:23
Speaker
And that was a realization that I had that made me think, absolutely.
00:22:26
Speaker
actually, this guy could be a really good boyfriend material because of that sort of, you know, he actually is just very good people skills.
00:22:31
Speaker
I always used to be like, oh, salespeople are manipulative.
00:22:34
Speaker
Salespeople are just trying to scam you.
00:22:35
Speaker
I'd never date another one of these guys here.
00:22:37
Speaker
They're all just trying to be Jordan Belford, Wolf of Wall Street types.
00:22:40
Speaker
But he was different.
00:22:43
Speaker
He was a rare exception.
00:22:45
Speaker
I love that.
00:22:45
Speaker
So he found like the value.
00:22:47
Speaker
This sounds all very Myers-Briggs-y to be, where it comes down to recognizing and analyzing different types of intelligence.
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:55
Speaker
Because one of the things that I've learned too, and this is just like a maturing thing with me, is that like a lot of times the quiet kids are the smartest ones in the room.
00:23:02
Speaker
Right?
00:23:02
Speaker
Right.
00:23:04
Speaker
That's so true.
00:23:05
Speaker
That's why I love introverts.
00:23:07
Speaker
But it's, and a lot of it has to do with not only their, I mean, not just like book smarts or the ability to analyze a problem, but understanding the emotional dynamics behind it.
00:23:15
Speaker
Right.
00:23:16
Speaker
So I can see that being a type of intelligence that would be needed to be in part of like a quote, female led relationship.
00:23:23
Speaker
That's not always highly recognized by women because they're not as loud or as obvious as like the guys who are more extroverted.
00:23:29
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:23:31
Speaker
You use Myers-Briggs.
00:23:32
Speaker
I prefer, you know, we talked about this in the Patreon exclusive episode, The Art of Sales, which is one of my favorite Patreon episodes that we have, by the way, where I talk about this sort of like graph you learn in sales or in some sales jobs, they teach you this sort of graph on like how to read people.
00:23:47
Speaker
So is someone high dominance or low dominance?
00:23:49
Speaker
And is someone more task oriented or people oriented?
00:23:52
Speaker
This is a side note.
00:23:53
Speaker
I used to really, really hate those type of sales categorizations because it made me feel like I had to motivate myself and change myself to not be in those boxes.
Effective Communication and Personality Types
00:24:00
Speaker
I'm like, fuck your boxes.
00:24:01
Speaker
I don't know what's wrong with me.
00:24:02
Speaker
That's also a personality type, by the way.
00:24:06
Speaker
Like the irreverent person, that's a box too.
00:24:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:10
Speaker
realized irreverent that's the word i want to say actually this sort of box first of all it's not like a strict you're either one of these four types like most people are either like a mix you know one of the two or there might be one in one situation a different type of person in another so people are like can change and our dynamic aren't just like one box right so that's one thing and secondly i like this framework because it actually taught me to have a newfound sort of appreciation for
00:24:33
Speaker
the different personality types.
00:24:34
Speaker
So like someone who's a high dominance and task oriented is like a director personality type.
00:24:40
Speaker
And I definitely have that.
00:24:41
Speaker
I'm more like I'm high dominance, but I'm both task oriented and people oriented.
00:24:44
Speaker
So I could be either director or like a socializer depending on the situation kind of thing.
00:24:48
Speaker
But I used to hate other director types.
00:24:50
Speaker
They're so like people who were hard directors with any of the socializer or any of the social aspects.
00:24:55
Speaker
I'd be like, oh, you know, they're just bossy.
00:24:56
Speaker
They're just telling me what to do.
00:24:58
Speaker
They don't care about people.
00:24:59
Speaker
They're selfish.
00:24:59
Speaker
They're assholes.
00:25:00
Speaker
And when you kind of dig into it, you realize like, actually, the director personality, they usually come from, you know, a family background often where their parents were really pushing them to be perfectionist and stuff.
00:25:10
Speaker
And they were taught that failure is something to be afraid of and stuff.
00:25:13
Speaker
And so it taught me kind of a bit about their sort of what makes them tick.
00:25:18
Speaker
Right.
00:25:18
Speaker
And kind of their inner motivations.
00:25:20
Speaker
And instead of approaching these people like, oh, you're a dick, which immediately just sets off a fight, approaching them more from like, oh, they're just afraid of appearing like a failure.
00:25:27
Speaker
They want to succeed.
00:25:29
Speaker
And then communicating them on that level often gets a much better result and it can avoid conflict, if that makes sense.
00:25:36
Speaker
No, I think that's a great point because I think sometimes, I actually think women probably fall victim to this more than men even, like where people assume if you're ambitious or driven that it's this drive to dominate and humiliate other people when it could just be like an internal motivator or a fear of failure or something like that, right?
00:25:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:53
Speaker
But again, that takes emotional intelligence.
00:25:55
Speaker
That's the type of intelligence that is...
00:25:57
Speaker
Not given to everyone like to, or only learning with dealing with people about how to recognize that dynamic within somebody and then adjust yourself in a way to communicate with them effectively.
00:26:08
Speaker
Exactly.
00:26:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:09
Speaker
So that's something I was actually bitching about the other day.
00:26:12
Speaker
So that attunement is empathy, right?
00:26:14
Speaker
Where you can not only observe that other person's potential experience, situation, circumstance, like who they are as a person and modify the way you interact with them accordingly.
00:26:24
Speaker
And a lot of men, I feel like have not been socialized to be aware of that.
00:26:30
Speaker
Whereas women are taught like, Hey, be attuned to other people.
00:26:32
Speaker
You have to care about how other people are feeling.
00:26:34
Speaker
So women that have like a leadership inclined personality tend to also have that socializing capability, whereas it's a lot more rare in men because it's just not as emphasized to be considerate or empathetic in that sense.
00:26:45
Speaker
So a lot of men tend to think like empathy is an innate trait where really it's, it's actually like a learned attribute.
00:26:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:51
Speaker
It is.
00:26:52
Speaker
I actually do genuinely think that empathy is a learned skill, for sure, because I've become more empathetic the older I've gotten.
00:26:58
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:26:59
Speaker
And the more I've worked at it.
00:27:00
Speaker
I feel like children are by nature kind of self-centered, right?
00:27:03
Speaker
They see the world as relative to them.
00:27:05
Speaker
And the older you get, if you work at it, you become more empathetic.
00:27:08
Speaker
And men, unfortunately, just have not received, by and large, have not received that same socialization.
00:27:12
Speaker
Some exceptions.
00:27:13
Speaker
Again, like my boyfriend is more on the people oriented side.
00:27:17
Speaker
So he can be more dominant or less dominant depending on the situation, but it's always more people oriented than task oriented.
00:27:22
Speaker
And I actually kind of like that.
00:27:23
Speaker
We both kind of like vibe like that.
00:27:25
Speaker
We sort of mesh well, you know, I think that's partly because he has a big family.
00:27:29
Speaker
We both had big families, spent a lot of time around other people, other kids when we were younger.
00:27:33
Speaker
And that really taught us a lot about, you know, group dynamics and how to how to thrive in kind of large group dynamics like that.
00:27:40
Speaker
Right.
00:27:40
Speaker
With going back to like the whole FLR thing, you really have to be careful as to who you let lead you, whether you want to be the leader or you want to lead someone else is making sure that the guy that you're interacting with, presumably this is being like a hetero relationship.
00:27:54
Speaker
You want to make sure that this guy is empathetic in that sense.
00:27:59
Speaker
Me being that person who prefers a guy to lead the relationship.
00:28:02
Speaker
I just get more out of it if he's the one providing everything to include direction.
00:28:06
Speaker
And having that compassion the other way around, like you have to be very empathetic.
00:28:10
Speaker
And I think I kind of lack a little bit, like very slightly apathetic towards the human experience only because I've seen some like fucked up shit where it's hard to care about other people.
00:28:21
Speaker
I think it's called empathy exhaustion or compassion burnout.
00:28:25
Speaker
Oh, interesting.
00:28:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:26
Speaker
Tell me more.
00:28:27
Speaker
Oh, well, basically, there's this phenomenon and, you know, doctors, nurses, police officers often because they see so much fucked up shit, they become really desensitized to it.
00:28:36
Speaker
And it makes it really hard for them to feel sympathy or compassion or to really feel emotional pain or...
00:28:42
Speaker
they don't allow themselves to feel emotional pain, right?
00:28:44
Speaker
And so that includes other people's emotional pain.
00:28:47
Speaker
And so often they can come across as unsympathetic or assholes or whatever.
00:28:51
Speaker
But really, it's just that they've, again, they've been exposed to so much fucked up shit.
00:28:54
Speaker
Again, this is part of the why we made the FDS subreddit private, because I noticed in myself that I was experiencing empathy burnout or like compassion burnout.
00:29:03
Speaker
And I didn't
00:29:04
Speaker
want to be influenced by Reddit like that.
00:29:06
Speaker
I didn't want to become that kind of person.
00:29:08
Speaker
I always want to maintain my ability to feel compassion for women, especially.
00:29:11
Speaker
That's something that I totally understand.
00:29:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:13
Speaker
And so I have to consciously be aware of and reflect on how connected and attuned I am.
00:29:19
Speaker
So yeah, I have to quote practice and
00:29:21
Speaker
empathy where I have to walk myself through a script of like, hey, this person is having a human experience.
00:29:26
Speaker
It's outside of yours.
00:29:27
Speaker
At least start to pretend to care so that I can slip into actually caring and taking their human experience into my actual decision making.
00:29:34
Speaker
So that's why I would make a very poor leader in a relationship because it's like,
00:29:39
Speaker
It takes a conscious effort to feel empathy.
00:29:40
Speaker
It doesn't come naturally.
00:29:42
Speaker
I mean, it does come naturally, but I've gotten so used to turning it off all day that it's, wow, I've turned it back on.
00:29:47
Speaker
Now I'm fucking tired.
00:29:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:49
Speaker
So, and I'm not a nurse.
00:29:50
Speaker
I don't care for people.
00:29:51
Speaker
So I have to practice not caring all day and then turn it on.
00:29:54
Speaker
So empathy is a really, really key component to being a leader and having a leader.
00:29:58
Speaker
So where you can kind of get away with it more if you're not leading.
00:30:01
Speaker
See, I have the opposite problem because in sales, like you have to have empathy to be a good salesperson, honestly.
00:30:05
Speaker
And some of the worst salespeople or some of the most like scammy, shitty, exploitative kind of salespeople, they often are like low empathy.
00:30:12
Speaker
They just sell based on forcing people or, you know, using emotional manipulation and so on.
00:30:16
Speaker
And
00:30:17
Speaker
the stakes are pretty
Coaching vs. Micromanagement
00:30:18
Speaker
low.
00:30:18
Speaker
I'm selling like phones or, you know, types of services or whatever.
00:30:21
Speaker
Right.
00:30:21
Speaker
So it's not like I'm not being subjected to like trauma or anything messed up on a day to day basis.
00:30:26
Speaker
So the stakes are low, but you have to feel empathy all the time.
00:30:29
Speaker
So I kind of just go about just knee jerk, you know, sort of trying to meet people on their level, so to speak, just in the day to day life.
00:30:36
Speaker
To bring it back to your earlier point about, you know, choosing the right person to lead you or, you know, if you're being the leader, that sort of thing, to be a good leader.
00:30:44
Speaker
to be a good leader.
00:30:44
Speaker
You have to have empathy.
00:30:45
Speaker
I want to say very, very unequivocally, like not everyone who is dominant as a personality trait is a good leader.
00:30:53
Speaker
Absolutely true.
00:30:54
Speaker
In fact, a lot of people who are highly dominant make terrible leaders because they just like the feeling of having power over others.
00:31:00
Speaker
They're forcing other people to do things.
00:31:02
Speaker
They don't feel empathy.
00:31:03
Speaker
They just like being in control.
00:31:05
Speaker
I do like being in control.
00:31:06
Speaker
I do like having power, but I also feel empathy.
00:31:09
Speaker
So I do my best whenever possible to be an ethical leader or to at least be attuned to other people's emotions.
00:31:15
Speaker
The micromanaging thing.
00:31:16
Speaker
I learned very early in my career I don't like being micromanaged.
00:31:19
Speaker
Nobody likes being micromanaged.
00:31:20
Speaker
Everyone hates micromanager.
00:31:22
Speaker
I'm like, fuck, I'm not going to be that person.
00:31:24
Speaker
I remember being like just an entry level employee being like, damn, if I ever move up this corporate ladder, if I ever am in power, I'm not going to be that kind of person because these people fucking suck.
00:31:33
Speaker
And, you know, as I got older and I learned, I sought out mentors who had the sort of leadership skills that I liked.
00:31:40
Speaker
So I sought out leaders who had the right stuff, so to speak, and then I tried to emulate them.
00:31:44
Speaker
So it's so interesting to hear you guys say this because I have worked in professions where micromanaging is the norm.
00:31:50
Speaker
I hate that.
00:31:51
Speaker
It's so common.
00:31:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:52
Speaker
Because of the meticulous nature of the work requires it.
00:31:56
Speaker
Meaning like if you're putting together a project, it has to go up through several layers of review.
00:32:00
Speaker
Is that something like you just here, I give it to you and then that's it.
00:32:02
Speaker
Like it has to go through so much.
00:32:04
Speaker
approval, review, red tape, et cetera, that you end up trying to front load all of the work so that you don't end up having to keep sending it up the chain of command a million times to get something done.
00:32:13
Speaker
So I wonder if you're in a high pressure situation where micromanagement kind of becomes the norm because of the fact that you need a high quality level of output in a short amount of time, I feel like you can still display levels of empathy or try to work with people in a way that helps them bring out their best work.
00:32:30
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:32:31
Speaker
I don't know.
00:32:32
Speaker
I don't have like necessarily the visceral reaction to micromanaging that you guys do because I understand why it happens.
00:32:37
Speaker
I mean, some people are just crazy.
00:32:38
Speaker
Don't get me wrong.
00:32:39
Speaker
Some people are nuts.
00:32:40
Speaker
I mean, in sales, it's different.
00:32:41
Speaker
First of all, again, the stakes are low with sales.
00:32:43
Speaker
And I've learned most of my sales skills in like an inbound call center where you're getting...
00:32:47
Speaker
bunch of calls a day.
00:32:48
Speaker
And, you know, if you make a mistake, it's not a big deal.
00:32:51
Speaker
Like what happens is you take the employee off to a side room, you listen to the call with them and coach them on like, oh, you know, how could we have done this better kind of thing, right?
00:33:00
Speaker
And so each mistake is an opportunity to learn.
00:33:03
Speaker
It's a very different type of leadership where I'm more of like a coach and trying to get people to improve their skills.
00:33:08
Speaker
And then as they improve their sales skills, they're
00:33:11
Speaker
numbers improve, right?
00:33:12
Speaker
And then that makes me look good as a sales manager, right?
00:33:15
Speaker
Whereas if you're managing a different type of person, like if you're more of a task-oriented sort of company or something, you're making products or something like that, it's a different sort of thing than salesmanship.
00:33:25
Speaker
And knowing the environment you're in is important too.
00:33:28
Speaker
Right.
00:33:28
Speaker
And I think that's where micromanaging comes from is where people are treating a relational type environment as a task oriented environment where the stakes are different.
00:33:36
Speaker
And I guess my issue with micromanagement, I guess we will tie this back to FLR here in a second, but it's somebody hovering over your shoulder that wants to see their work come from your hands.
00:33:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:47
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:33:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:48
Speaker
That's different.
00:33:48
Speaker
That's different.
00:33:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:49
Speaker
And I'm just like, stop.
00:33:51
Speaker
That's the micromanaging I've experienced.
00:33:53
Speaker
And I'm just like, I want to gouge everybody's eyes out right now.
00:33:56
Speaker
Yeah, so like a micromanaging sales manager would be hovering over your shoulder, listening to you on the call while you're making the call and like making notes on like, oh, say this to them, tell them this and like being really high pressure.
00:34:07
Speaker
I've had managers like that when I was a salesperson working in a call center.
00:34:10
Speaker
I hated that.
00:34:11
Speaker
It's so hard to just have sound natural when you're on the phone with the customer, when you have your manager over your shoulder, like telling you what you should say, or, you know, they'll be listening to the call while I'm making it and then sending me messages on like Google Hangouts or something telling me like, tell the customer this, tell the customer that.
00:34:25
Speaker
And it's like, why don't you just hop on the call and tell them that, right?
00:34:30
Speaker
Put them on hold, pass them off.
00:34:31
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:34:32
Speaker
And it doesn't achieve anything.
00:34:33
Speaker
It just makes the employee hate you and trust you less.
00:34:36
Speaker
And it pisses off the customer.
00:34:38
Speaker
You know, everything about it is terrible, right?
00:34:40
Speaker
It doesn't get you the correct result.
00:34:42
Speaker
What you do is, you know, sometimes an employee is just going to have a bad call and that's OK.
00:34:45
Speaker
And that's pretty normal.
00:34:46
Speaker
Right.
00:34:47
Speaker
And then again, you just listen to the call with them after the fact.
00:34:49
Speaker
So they can be like, oh, here are the points where I made a mistake.
00:34:52
Speaker
Here's, you know, in the future, if I'm on a call with someone like this, here's how I'm going to do it differently in the future kind of thing.
00:34:57
Speaker
Right.
00:34:57
Speaker
you've already made the mistake.
00:34:58
Speaker
The past is the past.
00:34:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:59
Speaker
How do we get past this?
00:35:00
Speaker
You know, you can't fix the past.
00:35:02
Speaker
You can only focus on the future.
00:35:03
Speaker
Right.
00:35:03
Speaker
And so I have that sort of similar, like kind of almost coaching relationship in my interpersonal relationships.
00:35:08
Speaker
I kind of want you to be my boss.
00:35:10
Speaker
I'll teach you how to do the work.
00:35:11
Speaker
Just like be my boss.
00:35:12
Speaker
Oh, thank you.
00:35:13
Speaker
That's such a good vibe.
00:35:15
Speaker
You know, it's so funny.
00:35:16
Speaker
People tell me that all the time, actually.
00:35:18
Speaker
And I'm like, so flattered.
00:35:18
Speaker
I'm like, oh my God, thank you.
00:35:21
Speaker
It's fine.
00:35:21
Speaker
We'll figure out your citizenship later.
00:35:23
Speaker
Who needs that?
00:35:24
Speaker
So like going back to it, right?
00:35:26
Speaker
And then FLR, sorry, just to kind of address like the shadow of it.
00:35:30
Speaker
Oh yeah.
00:35:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:31
Speaker
No, I got, I went on a sales rant.
00:35:33
Speaker
Go ahead.
00:35:33
Speaker
No, but that's, that's key.
00:35:35
Speaker
Cause sales is about like human dynamics and how do you get this person?
00:35:38
Speaker
I mean, life is a sales interaction.
00:35:39
Speaker
I think you talked about that in your art of sales episode, but on the dark side of it, right?
Clarifying Female-Led Relationships
00:35:44
Speaker
Most people, especially men, think FLR, like you said, pegging BDSM.
00:35:48
Speaker
And we're all of a conviction that BDSM is abuse, right?
00:35:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:52
Speaker
And once not, it's... I don't think the entirety of it is exactly like horrible abuse, but it's definitely a gateway drug to abuse.
00:35:59
Speaker
It's like...
00:36:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:00
Speaker
Okay.
00:36:00
Speaker
So about that, it went from being like a little taboo with like maybe a little fuzzy pink handcuffs to a blindfold to people finding strangers on the internet and showing up to a dungeon and being pissed on by like some weird, creepy dude.
00:36:13
Speaker
And I feel like that's the problem.
00:36:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:16
Speaker
Getting choked, slapped and like, yeah.
00:36:19
Speaker
And why, you know, more or less it became less of a kind of a slightly kinky thing that established couples do to like a whole subculture that the subculture itself is massively toxic.
00:36:29
Speaker
Yes.
00:36:30
Speaker
Not the act itself, but the way it's played out.
00:36:32
Speaker
So you have that side of it where it's like the woman sexually also very, very dominating.
00:36:38
Speaker
And like it turns into like capital D, lower S, dominant submissive type relationship.
00:36:42
Speaker
And that's its own window.
00:36:43
Speaker
And I think that's outside of like a female led relationship to like a female dominated sexual engagement where you don't even have to be in a relationship for that kind of like sexual dynamic.
00:36:53
Speaker
So I would put that in its own bubble, frankly.
00:36:56
Speaker
Yeah, I actually get really offended when I talk about my relationship and people immediately assume I'm like pegging my boyfriend and doing all this, like, you know, that I'm whipping him or like tying him up or anything.
00:37:06
Speaker
We don't do any of that shit.
00:37:08
Speaker
The most like, quote unquote, femdomy stuff that we do is like sometimes, yeah, like we'll be making out, fooling around, whatever.
00:37:13
Speaker
And then I'll go like, you know, basically, I'll just get him really horny and then not have sex with him.
00:37:17
Speaker
And that's apparently a thing in femdom.
00:37:18
Speaker
I wasn't aware of this until someone told me.
00:37:20
Speaker
Well, just teasing, though.
00:37:23
Speaker
Yeah, like, of, like, getting the guy, you know, horny and then denying him.
00:37:26
Speaker
That's, like, a femdom thing.
00:37:27
Speaker
And I'm like, okay, well, good to know.
00:37:29
Speaker
But that's, first of all, like, what I mean by female-led, you know, in the bed kind of thing, it's basically, like, I decide whether sex happens.
00:37:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:37
Speaker
That's how consent works, right?
00:37:39
Speaker
I mean, every time that I want to have sex, my boyfriend's, like, excited for that.
00:37:42
Speaker
He's like, yeah, she wants it.
00:37:45
Speaker
Right?
00:37:45
Speaker
So...
00:37:45
Speaker
There's never been a time where I wanted sex and he didn't.
00:37:48
Speaker
So that's that.
00:37:49
Speaker
But there have been times where he wanted sex and I didn't.
00:37:51
Speaker
And then we didn't have sex.
00:37:52
Speaker
So.
00:37:52
Speaker
And that's interesting, like, because I feel like I'm totally female led in the bedroom.
00:37:57
Speaker
Good.
00:37:57
Speaker
That's how it should be.
00:37:58
Speaker
That's actually, sorry, when we're talking about it.
00:38:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:01
Speaker
Oh, so it becomes everything else.
00:38:02
Speaker
I'm a little bit more flexible.
00:38:04
Speaker
But like when it comes to sex, I feel like that's where my FLR tendencies shine.
00:38:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:09
Speaker
And that's such an important point because you might not be female led in every single aspect of your relationship, but it might be like, say, you know, the woman wants to manage all the finances, right?
00:38:18
Speaker
We've had that episode where we talked about should men be allowed to have money?
00:38:21
Speaker
You know, right?
00:38:22
Speaker
I support Fyndom.
00:38:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:25
Speaker
Short answer, no.
00:38:26
Speaker
Yeah, I support FINDOM as a mass political movement and as an individual.
00:38:30
Speaker
So yeah, I'm female-led when it comes to money, sex, and maybe you're not as female-led in other aspects of the relationship, and that's totally okay too.
00:38:39
Speaker
And so just defining that the female-led aspect of it does have the two bubbles, where I think having a female-led relationship is different than female-led, male-led, sexual.
00:38:49
Speaker
I think the two dynamics are not necessarily always related.
00:38:53
Speaker
Because I think our sexual needs are different than our day-to-day emotional relationship needs.
00:38:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:57
Speaker
I think so too, because I remember there was a big push towards the idea of responsive desire in women that like women are responsive
Understanding Sexual Desires and Preferences
00:39:03
Speaker
sexually.
00:39:03
Speaker
And that was just completely foreign to me.
00:39:05
Speaker
I'm like, what are you talking about?
00:39:06
Speaker
Like I either feel horny or I don't.
00:39:08
Speaker
And quite frankly, I feel like when a guy's pawing at me trying to turn me on when I'm not into it, it actually has the opposite reaction.
00:39:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:14
Speaker
It makes me more turned off if he's being pushy.
00:39:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:17
Speaker
But I even put like, it doesn't have to be pushy, but like, okay, so if you listen to a lot of the responsive sexual desire people, they're like, well, you have to lead a woman to be sexually into you.
00:39:26
Speaker
But a lot of feminist sex therapists and even people from like, who had pretty respective books, like Come As You Are, I think with Emily Nagowski have talked about like responsive sexuality being like some women can look at a man spontaneously and feel sexual desire.
00:39:38
Speaker
And in other women, it's a function of this guy, like hoaxing them in some way, like in some kind of
00:39:44
Speaker
Almost like a more seductive energy, I guess.
00:39:46
Speaker
Or like a guy initiating physical touch helps them feel more sexual.
00:39:50
Speaker
Where all that just like, it's not for me.
00:39:52
Speaker
I mean, I do like the feeling of being seduced.
00:39:54
Speaker
I mean, I don't necessarily, it doesn't always necessarily lead to sex, but I do like when the man is trying to seduce me.
00:40:00
Speaker
Not in like a pawing at me aggressively, kind of trying to force me to have sex with him, but in like a him trying to entice me kind of thing.
00:40:06
Speaker
I actually kind of like that.
00:40:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:08
Speaker
I do too.
00:40:09
Speaker
I would say it's to me, it's not like the manipulative side, but I'm not always in the mood and I've never looked at someone, even my own significant other and be like, it's time to fuck.
00:40:19
Speaker
It's like my brain's like, it's time to fuck.
00:40:21
Speaker
Okay, there he is.
00:40:21
Speaker
Let's go do it.
00:40:24
Speaker
But like, if he can convince me or like talk me into it, it's never going to be like touching me a certain way that'll do it.
00:40:31
Speaker
I have a very psychological approach to sex.
00:40:33
Speaker
So I have to quote, be sold on it.
00:40:34
Speaker
You know, a stranger can never do it.
00:40:36
Speaker
It's a relational thing for me.
00:40:38
Speaker
So I'm reading the definition.
00:40:40
Speaker
It says responsive desire is the growing interest in sex that occurs in reaction to sexual stimuli, often responsive desire sparked by touch, physical closeness or sexual contact.
00:40:48
Speaker
It's when mental interest in sex comes after external stimulus.
00:40:51
Speaker
And like, I feel like mine is the opposite of this where mine is very much like I feel it, then I do it.
00:40:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:58
Speaker
Rather than like someone touching me and then feeling sexual desire from that.
00:41:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:03
Speaker
I see like what you meant by like the whole pawing thing, turning you off.
00:41:06
Speaker
It's like.
00:41:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:07
Speaker
Like a guy, the way a guy smells, the way he moves, like the way he talks to me, like those are all things that would be seductive to me.
00:41:12
Speaker
But I feel if a guy, if even if I'm into him, if he tries to like close in too much, it makes me feel like a cornered rat.
00:41:18
Speaker
And I don't feel sexual stimulus from that.
00:41:20
Speaker
Yeah, that's the other thing.
00:41:21
Speaker
I think a lot of men just have really terrible game.
00:41:24
Speaker
Like, I almost feel bad for all these fucking guys following, like, these red pillar, like, pickup artists, alpha male scrotes.
00:41:30
Speaker
They're teaching them practices that actively turn off most women.
00:41:34
Speaker
And in other women, it would be rape.
00:41:36
Speaker
Like, some women, like, they might feel uncomfortable.
00:41:39
Speaker
Like, with really high-pressure sales tactics, some women...
00:41:41
Speaker
And I get this in sales too.
00:41:42
Speaker
Like some people, it's not always women, some men are like this too, where like they don't want to just say no.
00:41:46
Speaker
They'll just sort of be either book the service or like they'll make steps towards buying it, but then like, you know, call later to cancel last minute or whatever, for whatever reason, like they just, you know, they don't want to say like a hard no.
00:41:56
Speaker
They'll sort of be like, well, I don't know.
00:41:58
Speaker
Or...
00:41:59
Speaker
I have to talk to my wife or, you know, I have to do this and this or let me think about it.
00:42:03
Speaker
Or, you know, they won't directly say no.
00:42:05
Speaker
Right.
00:42:05
Speaker
And some women are like that, too.
00:42:07
Speaker
Like, I don't know.
00:42:07
Speaker
I feel like women like that are in such danger of these high pressure sales tactic type guys, both in sales and in relationships, actually, because they're really vulnerable to this sort of like coercion.
00:42:18
Speaker
Right.
00:42:18
Speaker
So how much do you think that's natural?
00:42:20
Speaker
How much do you think that's culturally induced?
00:42:21
Speaker
Because for me, it was culturally induced and I had to figure out like, oh, I'm not like this because I feel like based on like my more Christian upbringing, there was always this assumption that women were supposed to be like submissive sexually or like submissive to men's desires.
00:42:34
Speaker
And like your job was to always like say no, et cetera.
00:42:36
Speaker
And that dynamic just never worked for me.
00:42:38
Speaker
And I always felt like sex, I don't know.
00:42:40
Speaker
I never felt like the kind of sex I really wanted to have until like I was the more aggressive person when I wanted to be and was like, yeah.
00:42:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:48
Speaker
Did you have to break away from that entire world in the first place and kind of rediscover who you are sexually?
00:42:54
Speaker
Because I definitely had to do that growing up Muslim where I have felt so much psychological shame and everything, which is why I think that physically coercive side of it really bothers me.
00:43:05
Speaker
And even game to a certain extent kind of bothers me because I can see through a game.
00:43:09
Speaker
Your game has to fool me.
00:43:10
Speaker
It has to be so natural that you're just like...
00:43:13
Speaker
You're not playing a game.
00:43:14
Speaker
You're kind of just being who you are.
00:43:15
Speaker
And like, it's inspiring to me, for me to be sexual and it doesn't feel too like calculated.
00:43:20
Speaker
I think that's why the red pill and sell stuff really, really fails.
00:43:23
Speaker
And it's counterproductive.
00:43:25
Speaker
I was like, it wasn't even really shame for me so much as like not having any type of language to navigate sexual dynamics between men and women other than like be passively rejecting.
00:43:34
Speaker
Right.
00:43:35
Speaker
And so it takes some time for me to understand like why I feel comfortable in certain situations and not others.
00:43:41
Speaker
Right.
00:43:41
Speaker
And like get the ability to articulate what I'm feeling and why and then express that to a partner.
00:43:46
Speaker
I feel like there's no tools for that if you're not like a submissive sexual type person and you come from a religious background.
00:43:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:53
Speaker
Right.
00:43:53
Speaker
There's nothing
Evaluating Partners and Seduction Techniques
00:43:54
Speaker
for that.
00:43:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:55
Speaker
See, I have this like weird thing.
00:43:57
Speaker
I don't know why I'm like this.
00:43:59
Speaker
I've always been kind of like, so I like to be sold to and I like when men attempt to seduce me, but only because I like to sort of evaluate them.
00:44:07
Speaker
My brain goes into sort of like coaching mode, like of like, where are the areas of improvement kind of thing where, you know, if I'm going to buy a phone or something like that.
00:44:16
Speaker
I generally do request a female salesperson, first of all, and then I want to see your sales pitch, right?
00:44:20
Speaker
Like, for example, I've talked about how I let Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons try to convert me because I want to see their sales pitch, right?
00:44:26
Speaker
And one of the things in sales is like they say, if you want to be a better salesperson, you have to interact with other salespeople, whether they're good or bad, right?
00:44:33
Speaker
And so sometimes their sales pitch will be like bad and you'll be like, this is something I should avoid doing.
00:44:38
Speaker
Sometimes like their sales pitch will be good.
00:44:39
Speaker
And oh, that was really smart of them.
00:44:40
Speaker
Like, I'm going to try doing that kind of thing, right?
00:44:42
Speaker
So it's about like kind of learning from other people.
00:44:45
Speaker
So I like
00:44:45
Speaker
when people try to sell to me good or bad, right?
00:44:48
Speaker
And including in like, you know, when men hit on me, I don't like the, you know, aggressive like cat calling or if I've said no repeatedly and he like just keeps going, like I don't like that kind of stuff.
00:44:57
Speaker
But if a guy is trying to like flirt with me or, you know, trying to get to know me or is trying to like doing a good job of trying to seduce me, I actually kind of, I'm like, oh, like I see what you're doing and I know you're trying to get in bed with me, but I'm evaluating your game and
00:45:09
Speaker
I sort of like judging, seeing if he's doing a good or a bad job.
00:45:13
Speaker
It usually doesn't lead to sex, even if he's good, but I'll just, that's just kind of how my brain works.
00:45:17
Speaker
I don't know if that's probably weird, but yeah.
00:45:19
Speaker
I find that exhausting and cringe.
00:45:21
Speaker
That's my problem.
00:45:21
Speaker
Cause it's, and it could just be again, like just the volume of it at times.
00:45:25
Speaker
It just, I don't, I have like zero patience for it.
00:45:28
Speaker
And I'm laughing because that's probably why you have more patience for Jehovah's Witnesses and the like.
00:45:32
Speaker
Whereas like, I feel like I've just heard so much of this shit.
00:45:34
Speaker
I'm like, get away from me.
00:45:35
Speaker
Like I'm a fridge.
00:45:37
Speaker
Like I'm like so reactive, you know, like I don't like that.
00:45:40
Speaker
Like, I feel like because you have trauma with that kind of event.
00:45:43
Speaker
These religious people are trying to... No, but it sounds like you have this sort of like evangelizing trauma, right?
00:45:49
Speaker
Like so... It can be.
00:45:51
Speaker
Yeah, like, I wanted to say something.
00:45:54
Speaker
I love the devil and like run off or something.
00:45:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:57
Speaker
Because it's just, yeah, it's so intense.
00:46:01
Speaker
But I feel that maybe that's also why I'm not really into the... But again, I love the process and you don't, right?
00:46:06
Speaker
So that's the thing.
00:46:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:08
Speaker
I don't mind a guy trying to seduce me, but like when I start feeling that like vultry, like circling in thing on me and like... Yeah, which is a very different vibe from like romance.
00:46:19
Speaker
That's what I mean about the difference between being like seduced and being pressured.
00:46:22
Speaker
Like I like the sort of like, you know, when the man's like trying to get to know you or is like asking you questions or just like being friendly and like that kind of stuff.
00:46:29
Speaker
Like when I like when men have good social skills, I like when men are trying to get sex in a way where they have good social skills.
00:46:35
Speaker
The ones who have bad social skills.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, that's cringe as fuck to me and I hate it.
00:46:38
Speaker
But even if it's bad, I still mentally I'm like,
00:46:41
Speaker
I see what you're doing and I'm, you know, I won't necessarily coach.
00:46:44
Speaker
I won't actually, if they're being bad, actually, I won't coach them at all.
00:46:47
Speaker
Like, but in my head, I'm thinking like, if this was an employee, I would tell them these are their areas of improvement, so to speak.
00:46:52
Speaker
Right.
00:46:52
Speaker
But again, I'm not being paid to teach them to have better games.
00:46:55
Speaker
So that's not like, I get paid to teach people how to be better salespeople.
00:46:59
Speaker
I don't get paid to teach men how to get sex.
00:47:01
Speaker
So I don't do that.
00:47:02
Speaker
I think that's good if you like the guy and you just need to tweak him a little bit.
00:47:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:06
Speaker
But most guys, I'm like, yeah.
00:47:08
Speaker
That's the thing.
00:47:08
Speaker
Like same thing with actually my current boyfriend.
00:47:11
Speaker
He was like 80 to 90% of like where I wanted him to be.
00:47:14
Speaker
And he was, you know, it's same thing with employees, actually.
00:47:17
Speaker
Like, you know, some employees, they want to learn, they're eager to learn, they like improving.
00:47:20
Speaker
And there's other employees who are just sort of like do the bare minimum, like clock in, clock out.
00:47:24
Speaker
Like they don't really give a shit kind of thing.
00:47:26
Speaker
Those ones, you know, I'll keep them on my team.
00:47:28
Speaker
Probably won't like, you know, fire them unless they do something bad.
00:47:30
Speaker
Right.
00:47:31
Speaker
But they're not going to get promoted.
00:47:32
Speaker
They're not going to like be taken to the next level at all.
00:47:34
Speaker
Right.
00:47:34
Speaker
Whereas the
00:47:35
Speaker
Really ambitious people, people that like to learn and people want to improve.
00:47:38
Speaker
Those are the people I get really excited about actually having them on my team and wanting them, you know, and coaching them up and seeing them like transform in the most like amazing way.
00:47:46
Speaker
Right.
00:47:46
Speaker
It's a similar kind of thing with
Closing Thoughts and Future Features
00:47:48
Speaker
relationships.
00:47:48
Speaker
You find someone who's really like eager and ambitious.
00:47:51
Speaker
They want to improve.
00:47:51
Speaker
They're like eager, please.
00:47:53
Speaker
And so on.
00:47:54
Speaker
And you can, if they're again, 80, 90% of where you need them to be, coach them up to 100%.
00:47:58
Speaker
But then there's other men, like they're just like the bare minimum employees.
00:48:00
Speaker
They just want to clock in, clock out, do as little work as possible.
00:48:04
Speaker
That's not the sort of man that you want to be in a relationship with.
00:48:06
Speaker
Exactly.
00:48:07
Speaker
Agreed on that.
00:48:08
Speaker
Amen.
00:48:09
Speaker
So that was our episode on female-led relationships.
00:48:12
Speaker
Let us know what you think.
00:48:14
Speaker
And also check out our website where we've all migrated now, thefemaledatingstrategy.com.
00:48:19
Speaker
Also on Twitter at fem.strat and our Patreon for weekly bonus content.
00:48:24
Speaker
Or if you just want to talk to us in the Discord about this episode, among many other things.
00:48:28
Speaker
And we'll also be debuting The War Room soon.
00:48:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:32
Speaker
So actually, I want to credit Elle for inspiring me with the war room.
00:48:37
Speaker
I think, was it Elle actually who said war room first?
00:48:39
Speaker
I don't know, but we kind of said at the same time.
00:48:41
Speaker
I don't think so.
00:48:42
Speaker
I think we were talking about stuff and I said something about war.
00:48:45
Speaker
I can't remember, but the war room concept started in like the back end conversations between me, Elle and Ro for female political strategy.
00:48:52
Speaker
And now we're going to bring this to FDS.
00:48:54
Speaker
So it's where women get together and we talk about our personal problems and strategize as a group how to fix it.
00:48:59
Speaker
Yeah, we're going to be doing that twice a month.
00:49:03
Speaker
Yes.
00:49:04
Speaker
So also follow us on Instagram at underscore the female dating strategy.
00:49:09
Speaker
Thanks for listening, queens.
00:49:10
Speaker
And for all you scrotes out there, biddable or bust.
00:49:13
Speaker
See you next week.