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Being the Great Optimist (with special guest Dust Cwaine)
114 Plays10 days ago
This week on a very special episode of Friendless, host James Avramenko sits down with one of Vancouver’s premier drag musicians and local icon, Dust Cwaine. From their first Instagram DM to this lively conversation, James and Dust dive into the realities of art, friendship, and finding connection in Vancouver’s often tough-to-crack creative scene.
Dust opens up about their journey from writing profiles in BeatRoute Magazine to nine years in drag and making a name as a bold, genre-bending musician. Together, they unpack the intersections of drag, music, and legacy—why Dust made the leap from ephemeral lip-syncing to creating original music that lasts.
Along the way, you’ll hear candid talk about building micro-communities, navigating friendship breakups, and what it really takes to be vulnerable—both onstage and off. Dust shares wisdom on mentorship, the tension and fun that drives their creative process, and why leaving little tangible gifts (like handwritten notes) for loved ones matters so much.
Expect laughs, honest confessions, the value of a “six pack” of close friends, and even the story of Dust’s triumph over epic earwax. Plus, Dust debuts a special exclusive track from their upcoming album, Twin Lakes.
If you’ve ever felt like making friends is hard or wondered how to build art—and relationships—that truly last, this episode is for you.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:08
Speaker
Well, hey there, sweet peas. Welcome back to Friendless. I'm your host, James Avramenko, and this week I am joined on the show by the incredible Dust Kowain, the icon themselves.
00:00:20
Speaker
We talk about building micro-communities, navigating friendship breakups, and what it really takes to be vulnerable, both on and off stage. Not only that, but at the end of the episode, we also have a very special exclusive sneak peek at Dust's brand new song. So going to want to stick around for that.
00:00:37
Speaker
But for now, lean back, get comfy, set your volume at a reasonable level, crack a Diet Coke, and let's get into it with my interview with the one and only Dust Kowain here on Friendless. Well, this week on Friendless, I have a brand new friend who someone who I have been admiring from afar on Instagram um and have very rapidly become pretty goo goo eyes over. And I just cannot believe that they are on the show.
00:01:03
Speaker
ah The one, the only Dust Kowain. are you? James, I. okay I'm going to coast on charm this entire interview. OK, because like.
00:01:17
Speaker
let's hope this charm that let's Let's hope my charm knows these bounds, but like I've never listened to your podcast. That's fine. That's fine. was sitting today and I was like, do I need to do research? No.
00:01:31
Speaker
No. Fuck no. No. Honestly, half the episodes I haven't listened to and I recorded them. So, you know, I get it. You know, um those are the enemy episodes.
00:01:43
Speaker
Literally. Literally. Those are the ones that I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are the ones that I'm like, look, I needed to put something out that week. It's fine. We're moving on, you know, just stick and roll. Right. And shout out to your partner, Shannon, for connecting with us. Yes.
00:01:58
Speaker
Yes. So this is this is how it initially started was Shannon and you go back. um and and And she was recommending, you know, kind of just people in the community that I that i might want to bring on the show. And ah and it it took me a couple of months to work up the courage to to ask to ask you.
00:02:17
Speaker
Yeah. Actually, funny enough, it wasn't even an ask. It was ah it was a call ah call out that you answered. And I i i kind of had a you know a momentary panic attack where I was like, oh, right. like People see my stories and people see the content I put out. And oh, no, I'm being perceived. right but My favorite thing about that is when I messaged, you were like, oh, I'm not actually ready to book anyone yet.
Personal Narratives and Mental Health
00:02:42
Speaker
And I was like, cool.
00:02:43
Speaker
but Circle back like Like, this is the thing. Okay. You know, ah the, um the ransom note of letters that I have amassed in my mental health diagnosis um ah often lead me to impulsive and not ah very thought out.
00:03:01
Speaker
uh uh acts let's call them behaviors when i'm being right and and i i just i got it i got it in my head that i was like i need a new i need a new batch guests so i i just i was like but i'm gonna do this before i forget and then i was like oh right there's other things i had to have in place first you know uh what's it like to be the only mentally ill person on on the earth You know, um it's it's it if it makes me feel really special and it makes me feel really... Special.
00:03:33
Speaker
You know, it's nice to know I'm unique in my anxieties and in my impulsivity ah and no one else behaves like this, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. That's fair.
00:03:44
Speaker
um Well, good for you. Thank you. Thank you. And I'm really, you know, congratulations on not being mentally ill on your side. Oh, thank you much. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:03:56
Speaker
They tried to get me. They tried. ah Yep, yep. They tried. I've been skirting those letters for a long time. If you just, like, anytime a doctor talks, if you just, like, plug your ears and go la, la, la, la la la la then... The best way let to not...
00:04:12
Speaker
not the The best way to not get diagnosed is just not go to the doctor. but Exactly. Exactly. I don't believe in medicine. you know no it's I did, however, recently go to the doctor because I had an ear blockage.
00:04:27
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I was like – like in rehearsals and things like that, my ear was like throbbing and then I jumped in a river and it just went completely deaf and I was like ah like, okay, not super duper convenient. So I went to the doctor and she had on the counter this like Home Depot spray bottle. Yeah. Oh, you got them flushed.
00:04:48
Speaker
And then they put a little needle in your ear and then they go and she literally gasped when the giant chunk of wax came out. Yep. Yep. but it's year It was like I was hearing for the first time.
00:05:01
Speaker
Oh my God. i I remember the first time I've i've had ah my ears flushed a few times. I actually own my own ear flusher because it happens so often. and um And i remember the first time I had a doctor flush. And i the way I could describe it was like it was like hearing for the first time in three d You know, like it was like a new, there was like sounds I didn't know existed because they'd been muted for so long. Right? Yeah. I could, I could hear
Artistic Journey and Identity
00:05:28
Speaker
smells.
00:05:28
Speaker
I was like, this is crazy. And then I was like, then we had rehearsal again and I was like, oh, you know, what was happening was the drums were making the earwax like vibrate and it was irritating me yep yep and just going deeper and deeper and deeper yeah yeah just yeah yeah okay so before we get any further this is this is a really ah encouraging to know that we're going to be able to just vibe uh in this conversation love to hear that um Crack that as soon as possible because you deserve it
00:06:01
Speaker
It's Diet Pepsi and I wanted the, I hope the sound comes in clear. Maybe you can go in and edit it so that it's yeah punchy. A nice crisp. yeah um i assume you've heard, I know you were just going to intro me and I'm just interrupting you completely. It's totally fine. Bring it on.
00:06:19
Speaker
ah Have you heard Addison Rae's song Diet Pepsi? ah ah Maybe. i i do have to admit I am atrocious with song names. I usually just hear a song and I'm like, oh, I like that. And then anytime it's on, I'm like, I like that song. I have no idea who it is, who's saying it, what it's called, anything. But um we're going to say a strong maybe.
00:06:38
Speaker
This bodes well for this interview where you're interviewing a musician. I've been i've been i've been trying to practice song titles and none of them are sticking.
00:06:50
Speaker
this is great i haven't listened to your podcast you don't remember song titles exactly exactly we're gonna do great we're gonna do so good um i was actually gonna i was gonna pass the buck to you and i was gonna say dusk wayne for listeners who may not know who you are um who the fuck are you very good point very good question very good point um who the fuck am i indeed um Well, I am Vancouver's premier drag musician.
00:07:19
Speaker
um i am a reincarnated mermaid. um i This is crazy. I normally say that I drink Diet Coke, but I'm literally drinking a Diet Femze.
00:07:32
Speaker
oh Anyway, um yeah, I am a drag queen, a musician. um ah ah voted local hero in the best of Vancouver awards 2025 2026 who knows or sorry maybe it's coming up coming up like 10 years and and ah yeah i've been around the city as an artist and culture maker for like ten years um And it's been, it's Vancouver such a wild place for that because of how difficult it is to make friends here.
00:08:11
Speaker
And my entry point for that, was when I moved here in 2015, started working for Beat Root Magazine and I pitched to them writing a monthly article about drag performers. At the time, in 2015, RuPaul's Drag Race was just sort of starting to get its steam. It was just before All Stars 2 came out.
00:08:33
Speaker
Some of your listeners might know what I'm talking about. You might even know what I'm talking about. just follow along. yeah I'm not gonna explain the lore. um And so things really changed after All Stars 2, let me tell you. But it was before this. And so we were putting these articles about drag queens into Beat Root magazine monthly. And the the first one I ever did was my drag mother's chandelier. And we took photos of her and I wrote a i wrote an interview.
00:09:00
Speaker
I wrote a basically a profile piece about her. And it was then she was like, I think you need to do drag. So she put me in drag. um And that was in 2016. So I guess I'm just, um I think I'm at nine years in drag, but 10 years, you know, in the sphere of like creating culture in the city and contributing.
00:09:20
Speaker
And what I realized by that, I met so many people in that process because I had something to give and I wanted to give it. And I wanted to meet people and all these things. And, know,
00:09:31
Speaker
I think the the naive part was that you eventually maybe sometimes run out of the things you can give. For me, what's great is I started doing drag. And so I started forging my own path.
00:09:45
Speaker
um Couldn't necessarily see a lot of myself in the shows that were happening and felt a need for like building a space where people could be weird instead of being like,
00:09:58
Speaker
um polished or whatever and it's an interesting take because over time I've become more polished and the shows I produce have become more polished but um I think that that's just like a maybe a maturity thing or a wanting to move on thing it feels like a natural progression right like you kind of have to get more refined as you do something you you inherently can't be as sloppy as you were at the start you know because you you and there's still some elements you know maintaining fun maintaining a carefree nature that's so important But, ah you know, five years into drag is when I transitioned to starting to do music because the pandemic hit.
Music and Queer Artistry
00:10:34
Speaker
And a friend of mine was like, hey, like everything has slowed down. Now you can focus on, you know, something bigger. And what I mean by bigger is I wanted to do something that would be that would live past me being here because drag is ephemeral. You can wipe it off.
00:10:51
Speaker
at the end of the night and maybe there's a couple Instagram stories, but Instagram stories are not forever. And so I was like, music seems to be like the thing that does that. And I was like, and because I'm iconic in drag, I'm going to be iconic in music. And that is, what is and is not, and was not the tea.
00:11:12
Speaker
um Let me tell you, the local indie bands don't have much time for a drag queen. Yeah. It's just fine. It's stupid. It's boring. Yeah.
00:11:27
Speaker
I think they have this preconceived notion of cool. And I think they don't understand they could reach. I don't understand. I don't think they understand that they can go from their shows having 15 people in the audience to having like 150 people in the audience by booking a queer, a very visibly queer act.
00:11:47
Speaker
It's such an active ally ship. Instead, they'd rather just, I don't know. not get political i don't know there's so much that goes on in the scene that i'm just sort of like i get it if you don't want to have a drag queen around i completely understand but you're missing out you know there is something i i wish i had a stronger kind of foothold in the the music scene here um it's it's it's a an area of the art scene that i've always wanted to be a little bit more ah in with but um
00:12:21
Speaker
Anytime I've ever kind of brushed up against it, it's always struck me as just very, ah very straight and just very ah like, well, what's cool somewhere else? What if we recreated it, but we'll call it cool because it's on the West Coast, you know?
00:12:37
Speaker
um there There hasn't struck me as very many like ah kind of I don't think everything has to be avant garde and brand new and refining everything, but like at least putting a little bit of a flavor.
00:12:50
Speaker
um And it just I guess I find that like straight white art is pretty flavorless inherently, so they don't really have much of a new angle to take. It's funny because you you call it straight white art and in the music scene, it's more of like a juxtaposition of genres.
00:13:09
Speaker
um because straight white guys play guitar a very specific way. And I feel like, and this might be controversial and also just a sweeping statement, but like, I feel like queer people are just more fun. Yeah. And so our music tends to be more fun. Our presentation tends to be more fun.
00:13:28
Speaker
Not always. I do know some very boring gay people. Of course, of course. that's their right. um But I... But i you know, for sort of a depth of of self-awareness in this conversation, i know that my music's not for everyone.
00:13:47
Speaker
i love a hook. I want it to be poppy and pop rock and sitting in next to a shoegaze band that just shreds guitar and shows skill. um That's not what I want my music to be. My band is incredibly talented and are capable of that.
00:14:04
Speaker
And there's moments where they do do that. But at the end of the day, the only goal of my music is to have fun and to leave something behind for future queer kids, um my nieces and nephews and nibblings, and just like all of the, the just the youth of the world, just leaving something behind. yeah that That really, that wrinkles my brain in so many different directions, but I want to and want to try and kind of cover each of them because I want to get your yeah your take on these. But I want to start with this idea of, of you know, there's this there's often this kind of ah ah combativeness in sort of like art appreciation,
00:14:43
Speaker
around the sort of the the presentation of like the technical skill and somehow that gets elevated, even though it's like not as um popular because it's not as accessible.
00:14:55
Speaker
Right. You know, just sit and watch like a virtuoso guitarist or or whatever it might be. I was just recently watching ah like rap battles and I was watching these these, you know, I was watching this. Oh, fuck. I think his I can't remember his name, but he's like a well known, know,
00:15:12
Speaker
ah guy in that scene. and um And, you know, technically speaking, it's fascinating, but it's like, I would never want to put that on. I would never want to just be like, hey, let's listen to Tech Nines Rap Battle 4, you know?
00:15:25
Speaker
um Because then on the other side, there's like, How successful are you gauged on like how, you know, how on the other side, how accessible you are, how how much you resonate across the board and how inclusive you can be with like come in and join this experience of this art.
00:15:42
Speaker
um And I've I've gone in both directions, ah you know, bisexual energy, sorry, of, ah of of ah you know, my apologies for that. Right. ah But, you know, i the the the appreciation for the for the craft and then the appreciation for the like, no, you've actually you've shown more skill by being kind of, I hate using words like dumbed down, but just like being simplified and being refined, you know?
00:16:11
Speaker
um um and And I'm curious, what led you to that kind of, that push for like that direction of your art? To like, can remind- bring in the party more, you know, like rather than, you know- I don't have time for, i don't have, like, I i don't,
00:16:32
Speaker
Things need to be reverent, but they don't need to be self-serious. Yeah. You can make art that has depth, but is fun.
00:16:43
Speaker
Yes. you can make art that says something, but has, but is fun. And I think that that's the important part is like, I really like the reverent serious moments.
00:16:54
Speaker
but This is a great example. Cause like we have this one song, um, And we've been performing it all summer. And as we're getting ready to go into the fall and getting into me releasing my second album and talking about, you know, staging these new songs, the band is literally like, can we take that one out of rotation? And I was like, um I love singing the song because it takes me somewhere that I want to be.
00:17:19
Speaker
But that place that it takes me is also incredibly sad. And oftentimes we don't really know where to place it in the set. So the song immediately after is some kind of like rowdy, fun, like i knew you in a past life kind of vibe. and yeah And this other one is just so serious and so deep and...
00:17:40
Speaker
It's fun to watch. It's fun to do. And we probably will do it on occasion, but we need to, they were basically just like, it needs to be the right moment because this pulls everything down. Sure. And it's really cool to be surrounded by people who understand the vision because,
00:17:56
Speaker
There's moments where I'm like, no, I actually want to cry on stage. And they're like, okay, well, maybe not at Riflandia. so Maybe not on the biggest stage of your career. maybe like Maybe you just keep that at a 10 and then you save this song.
00:18:12
Speaker
And so it's it's so funny because they also don't like to play Hero by Enrique Iglesias. But that's a song that I've been known for my entire career. That's my go-to karaoke song. It's one of my favorite songs of all time.
00:18:26
Speaker
I can't host a show and finish the show without singing it. If I'm like the show's over, people are like, sing hero. Yes. But the band is like, we don't want to, we don't, we don't, we don't like it. We don't want to play it.
00:18:39
Speaker
But for Rifflandia, they were like, we want to play it. Cause I'm like, oh, so you have this like level of awareness with the audience. It's, it's nice because I'm like, I, they could easily have just come on board to join my project and been like, we'll do whatever you say.
00:18:55
Speaker
yeah But instead they're like, they're like, we have opinions and yeah we want to refine this. And like that sort of democracy is very interesting to me. And, um, being in a room like that is, it's so, um,
00:19:10
Speaker
I don't know. I, as a drag performer, rehearsal is lip syncing in my living room. As a musician, rehearsal is like turning the equipment on at the jam space and like working your way through it. And it's so different. And one of the things that I really, I'm going off on tangents here. um One of the things that I really, really like about the creative process is tension.
00:19:33
Speaker
I think tension and conflict are creative energies and, There's tons of that. And I'm so interested because I know what our tension points are. And I always wonder about what other artists experience in terms of conflict and how that, how that, how that creates things for them.
00:19:51
Speaker
But like the, the, the end goal always forever and always with my art will be fun. How can we make it fun? How can it connect to the most people? Because,
00:20:03
Speaker
We can try and define friendship. We can try and define community. There's so many definitions and people are, people's definitions are often informed by their lived experiences. And like mine certainly is. And I saw on the sheet that that's sort of like one of the things this podcast dives into.
00:20:18
Speaker
I want to avoid defining it and more talk about the moments that it lives in. And for me, it's when I'm singing a song and I notice one person singing a along, you know, as a songwriter, if they're, they know my lyrics, that's going to be really moving.
00:20:34
Speaker
But then even if we're doing a cover and I'm like, oh, I'm staging this for you and it's connecting to you, it's very special. um And there's just like some really fun,
00:20:47
Speaker
milestones with music that drag doesn't get.
Artistic Vulnerability and Mentorship
00:20:50
Speaker
yeah And I also think that music makes me feel more vulnerable than drag does. So that was something I wanted to ask you about was, was this sort of, you know, you, you raised ah million points that I want to circle back on, but I also am like, I just love, no, I just love letting you just vibe because, because you're just throwing out nuggets of gold everywhere.
00:21:13
Speaker
um ah But the the the intersection of music and drag is such a fascinating one because, you know, in a lot of ways, drag performance is inherently musical, right? So much of it is tied into lip syncing and so much of it is already with the built-in, you know, music there.
00:21:28
Speaker
But then to to to take it the next ever a step further and create your own music and have it be, you know, to actually use your your own voice. um Was shift,
00:21:38
Speaker
was that shift was that thinking behind that shift or, or, um or was there more intentionality or, or, or, you know, what was the drive for, for music to be the next step?
00:21:51
Speaker
As you know, yeah i know you mentioned about the idea of like, you know, leaving something, but it's like, you know, there's lots of ways to step out of the theater and, and create a permanent piece of art somewhere. So what was it about music that, that, that drove you there?
00:22:04
Speaker
I believe,
00:22:07
Speaker
Drag is a very interesting art form. It is not a ah funded art form, which means we don't get money from granting streams or anything like that to like further our artistic value. There's no schools for it.
00:22:21
Speaker
The school of drag is is um to go to local shows and learn from your drag parents or watch Drag Race or tutorials or whatever. There's so many different resources now.
00:22:33
Speaker
For music, it's like... Drag drageg is a derivative art form. That's not derogatory. It just, it is, right? yeah um your Your art is derived from the way you view gender and how you want to like express it differently than your own.
00:22:49
Speaker
I think that's the definition of drag, expressing gender that is different than your own um in whatever direction and configuration you want. There's no binary. And i with music...
00:23:01
Speaker
It is, it can be derivative. Cover bands exist. That's amazing. People, people can become millionaires doing cover bands. Like it's, there's so many amazing songs out there. And so many artists who are so many bands who aren't together and don't tour and blah, blah, blah. Like we never, like if you, if you're really good at a cover band, you're set for life.
00:23:24
Speaker
You what I'm saying? So yeah. making your own music adds this level of vulnerability and this artistic element to it that I needed. I was just sort of like, I was calling myself an artist, but not feeling like an artist. sure And I don't think all drag performers feel this way. I think a lot of drag performers,
00:23:44
Speaker
feel like they're an artist. It wasn't that way for me. And, um, and this, oh my God, i can, I can hear my own personal growth. Cause I would have taken the opportunity to be so shady right there and just say, just say the mean thing that I was thinking out loud, but I didn't. It's because I'm the only mentally ill one here.
00:24:08
Speaker
know That's right. Yes. Um, and good for you. um So like, I just, it was I didn't feel like an artist. So I needed to figure out how to satiate that feeling inside of me because people were calling me an artist and I wanted to be called an artist. And I didn't go to school. I don't have any technical skill that was taught to me.
00:24:31
Speaker
um All of my technical skill has been given to me by way of mentorship. um which is a preferred form um yeah of of learning for me. i think I think it's how all art should be taught in general. I don't think it should be. you know i did I did go to theater school and I shouldn't have. I think i i wish I had found just a mentor. you know like Yeah, totally. the thing is,
00:24:51
Speaker
and like but the thing is is like we as a society don't ah value mentorship in the same way because capitalism, ah you know, and um it's rare.
00:25:03
Speaker
It's rare because they they often, the best, um, mentorship moments I've had in my life have been large age gaps.
00:25:14
Speaker
That's where I've gathered lots of wisdom and then put it into practice. um But with music, I was like, I was like, i don't even really think I know what the definition of a melody is.
00:25:27
Speaker
i can't read music. Like if I was staring at sheet music, I wouldn't be able to do that. um But I know music. Yep. And that's a really interesting thing is it's more of like a spiritual experience when writing a song.
00:25:44
Speaker
um And what's really cool about that is, and I, and I, my publicist, Jen says this all the time. She's like, your songs are so distinctly you that if they came on the radio, I would know it was you, not just by the tone of your voice, but also the way you write.
00:26:00
Speaker
Because am, at the end of the day, because I wanted to create something to leave behind, I'm kind of only making art for me. Yeah. um Yeah. And the thing that I want to do with that art is put it on a stage.
00:26:14
Speaker
And so there's, it's just like create the art stage, the art, let the people have the art move on, do something new. awesomemon Yeah. Because I do like the ephemeral nature of it. So I'm constantly moving things along and I,
00:26:31
Speaker
God, music just takes me to a place where it causes me so much creative anxiety. Yeah, sure. But that's a good sign. That's a good thing, right? I think that, you know, you were talking earlier about the idea of, like, ah creating art within tension and and and and embracing the tension. And i think I think if you're not worried about your art, you're making the wrong art, you know? Like, there should be there should be an inherent discomfort just to create it because it, it it you know, you know, ah I mean, I always think of it it in ah in ah in a certain light. I think of it as it's it's ah a type of birth. And, like, it's not like birth is an easy thing, you know, from what I've been told. i don't know, but... but but um
00:27:15
Speaker
We are not qualified for that. right I'm not going to comment beyond that. you know Just from secondhand being told about it. But it but you know it it it should be kind of uncomfortable. And if it's going to be worth it, um there should be that tension. right Drag doesn't make me feel nervous at all. I could go on stage and it's no problem because am inspired by the audience and I know that I can I know that my charm can pull them in, yeah but it comes to music. You have to be technically skilled. You have to be in line with five other people.
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah. All of your equipment has to function. Like you have to use equipment. Yeah. It's a whole thing and it's getting easier, which is really great. Um, but there's just so much more of the stakes are the stakes feel higher. And, um, I think what's sorry, my brain brain just went completely blank.
00:28:15
Speaker
Well, you know the idea the idea behind like the, the um you know, you you talked about like not feeling challenged by drag and that's something that I really felt, you know, so I came up initially in the theater world.
00:28:26
Speaker
I went to theater school, I thought I was going to be an actor, director, playwright, yada, yada, yada. um um You know, there's other factors in my life that drew me out of theater. But one of them is that I felt like I feel like I had a similar experience where I i wasn't feeling challenged by it.
00:28:42
Speaker
I felt really safe. I felt really comfortable. I could memorize my lines really easily. i could, you know, find my character. i never had a trouble with any of that. And I would get on stage and i would it would just but it was a breeze, you know, it was second nature for me and, and it was fun and it was invigorating, invigorating in that it's fun to be in front of people and to give a good performance and to feel, you know, kind of fed by that energy.
00:29:03
Speaker
But I wasn't feeling satisfied afterwards. You know, there was still this kind of black hole and, and, um, finding other creative outlets for me has has, you know, yeah, for me, it's pushed me into the the podcast realm. It's pushed me into the into the poetry realm, ah places that I still, you know, I've been writing poetry for, God, 10, maybe 15 years now. And I still don't feel like I've fully cracked it.
00:29:28
Speaker
You know, I'm still refining. I'm still practicing. I'm still trying stuff. And and I still don't feel like I i truly have, you know, certainly way, the right to call myself a full full-fledged poet yet, you know, um um because i'm still I'm still scared of it, right?
00:29:46
Speaker
and And I like that. that's what That's what pulls me into the art, right? um um yeah You mentioned earlier, you know, and I'm going to and I'm going to agree with you because this is the same kind of energy I wanted to bring.
00:29:59
Speaker
I don't want to circle to the like the classic temple questions, but I do want to kind of like circle the drain of them a little bit. And I want to start with with one you've you've touched on slightly, but I'd like to kind of hear a little bit more about is, you know, you were talking about this, this idea of the kind of the the elder mentor. And, you know, it just so happens that you're one of your mentors, ah former guest of the show, Chandelier, um who also, i want to kind of dog ear here, ah and read the audio book for an incredible book about queer lives in the in you know in New York in the 40s and 50s.
00:30:38
Speaker
who ah The title, I'm always mixing it, missing up, but it's something along the lines of P.S. Burn This, ah Please Burn This Letter, right? um um And that book to me was ah revelatory on so many levels um because of the what felt like the the um ah sort of monument that had been created for these people who had been here and had lived and had tried their best and history kind of tried to erase them and it wouldn't and we wouldn't let let it. Right.
00:31:15
Speaker
um And and so hearing how you were talking about your music really feels like a continuation of that energy. um It's so it's so funny that you bring up a PS Burnless letter because there's a song on my new record that comes out in September that is loosely inspired by that sentiment, the concept of like burn something after you read it. And and I think that I think that the initial and like seed of that idea came from uh, Shanda, like that book. Cause I ate up.
00:31:49
Speaker
It was, yeah same and I'm really drawn to the concept of like, I twisted it around to be more about when someone tells you like a big secret in their life, something that makes them feel incredibly vulnerable.
00:32:04
Speaker
And then they freak out and they tell you to forget it, or they try and like backtrack or those sorts of things it it gives that like burn after reading vibe. It's like, ah please don't remember me for what I told you, like, forget everything about me kind of situation.
00:32:21
Speaker
um Because there are sometimes there's things that make people sort of like spin out when it comes to vulnerability. Yeah. ah Push people away.
00:32:31
Speaker
Isn't that the case, though? And that's something that I'm really recognizing lately is that, you know, i my my sort of, I would i frame it. I mean, I've had several chapters over the last, you know, decade or so, but but my most recent one where I was really pushed over the last like two, three years to to really get vulnerable with myself about what was I doing? What was I repeating? what Why was I finding myself in these similar situations over and over again?
00:32:56
Speaker
um and And I've really realized that that to be that level of vulnerable is one of the hardest things to do. It's, you know, it feels like it shouldn't be. It feels like it should be, able you should be able to just be like, well, this is true. So I'm just going to say what's true.
00:33:13
Speaker
But for some reason, the truth is the scariest thing in the goddamn world. ah ah me and i Me and my producing partner have talked about this for my, we've been working together now for five years.
00:33:25
Speaker
And we constantly talk about how We will say something that we think is bold and brave and pass it off as vulnerability. But if you are actually saying something vulnerable, you'd probably likely be shaking and not actually be able to say it.
00:33:39
Speaker
Yes. It's like performative vulnerability so that people but you are self-aware. There's a link. There's an interesting link that I've been really chewing on lately. I just saw I follow several ah BPD Instagram accounts ah because that's, you know, amongst my my. ah amongs is not are that's Are those some of your letters? Some of my letters, some of my ransom note letters, I call it. Yeah. yeah yeah ah And at one of the posts was talking about. um When you use ah the reason you use therapy language in therapy is because it helps you depersonalize the issue and remain ah separate from your therapist so that you don't become entangled and enmeshed.
00:34:19
Speaker
it It allows for a depersonalization so that you can analyze and create resolutions. You're not supposed to talk with therapy language to your friends. you're You're supposed to just talk to your friends.
00:34:30
Speaker
And that's why this this wave of like pseudo therapy lingo in just kind of casual conversation makes everybody look like a psychopath because it's like, no, like you're not actually saying words.
00:34:41
Speaker
You're just thinking you're sounding smart by using these pseudo terms. And usually you're using them wrong. you know well the problem The problem that I find for me, because I am autistic, um sorry to sort of actually like lie to you at the beginning there.
00:34:57
Speaker
um Is that i um I don't – there's other letters too. Yeah, yeah. there's There's some A's and some D's. Yeah, I've got those. I've got those i've got the ASD ah it on my bank card too. yeah There's some A's, some D's, some H's. There's an O. yeah There's another D, maybe a C. And there's a P in there. Mm-hmm.
Communication and Personal Growth
00:35:24
Speaker
and a T. yeah I think there's maybe ah maybe a C before the PT. For sure. ah the yes My childhood?
00:35:36
Speaker
Absolutely. yeah Steamy about that C for sure. um Is that when it comes to therapy speak, And then coming back to friends, when I'm talking to someone and we're having a conversation or a conflict, if I don't hear i statements, I red flag.
00:35:56
Speaker
yeah Because I'm like, you need to talk to me directly, person to person. And when people are like, people are like, well, when this happens, this is how I feel. i'm like, no, how did it make you feel when I did that to you?
00:36:09
Speaker
Interesting. Because that's the reality, you know? Yeah. I don't... I've been some pretty hardcore therapy. Yeah. i've been Some crazy shit.
00:36:21
Speaker
Yeah. And ah I think the magic of it is is learning to unprogram the fear around stuff like that. Yes. Yes. isn't that the Isn't that the truth? You know, I was just talking with some people the other day about how much I i loathe corporate speak when bosses say, can we do this?
00:36:42
Speaker
Right. When they're always like, well, what if we did this? And I'm like, well, so does that mean you're going to do it? Like, I need you to tell me, James, you are going to do this task or, you know, like speak directly to me. Right.
00:36:53
Speaker
And I think that that correlates back to this thing of of when when you're using these like, well, I felt this, I felt that. The reason we're trained to do that is because it does take the ah sting out, right?
00:37:06
Speaker
Because people are so ready to take on the shame and they're so ready to be defensive and they're so ready to be like, well, I didn't mean it. Well, what are you? know Right. When it's like, if you can remove that shame piece from you and if you can just like hear what your impact was,
00:37:22
Speaker
ah we could communicate so much clearer to each other. Right. Yeah. i I left the corporate life behind. um i was a manager at Sephora.
00:37:34
Speaker
And my whole ethos as a manager, like I realized a little ways in, i like four or five years in that there were so many of things that lived inside of me that I was compromising values wise and leaving was incredibly triumphant. It's been an incredible gift to leave that behind.
00:37:56
Speaker
um And when I left it behind, I was like, I'm not going to be anyone's boss ever again. Like that's, I don't, I don't want that. I have a different concept of what a boss is. a boss should be like a supporter. you should hire people who you trust to do their jobs.
00:38:10
Speaker
You should listen to what they need and you should do that because quality of life actually begets better work, blah, blah, blah, all these things. And I was the kind of manager that did the things alongside you.
00:38:23
Speaker
And so if I did say we, I was actually doing it. And because of that, I was trusted a lot more than other managers. um And I'm just like, I think I'm my mother's child in that way because she is very that way when she's a supervisor.
00:38:41
Speaker
And something I really admire about my mom is she would never ask someone to do something unless she would also do it or has done it. And i think there come times as managers where you have the opportunity to do the little things that ah everyone has to do.
00:38:56
Speaker
And then there are times when you won't have time to do it. And so you have to really take advantage of those moments. And like, I think that that's also emulates in friendships. Yes. Where there's moments where you have capacity to show up for someone and there's times when you can't.
00:39:11
Speaker
And that's when communication becomes very important. And my last relationship with my last partner, there were times when I would need support. And because of the way we communicated, there would be times where he would say to me, like, just so you know, I don't have the capacity.
00:39:26
Speaker
You should go ask so-and-so because the clarity of having like a smaller friend group who is connected and who you can rely on for emotional things means you can ask more than one person, not just a romantic partner.
00:39:40
Speaker
yeah And that just like, it clears the path for having shitty relationships that don't have strength. yeah Yeah, yeah. That's been my my whole thing. i'm So i'm I'm just about i'm about two months two months out from being two years sober.
00:39:55
Speaker
And ah one of the one of the initial concepts that I really grabbed onto, I've talked to i've talked about it a few times on the show. So listen listeners will be familiar. This will be your first time hearing it. Yeah. It was this is this idea of ah get yourself a six pack of people.
00:40:14
Speaker
So rather than having like the traditional like, you know, the the sponsor or, you know, other people would would lean on just their partner or whatever it might be. Instead, get, ah you know, and of course, typical alcoholics are going to make anything into a ah booze joke. So they're like, get a six pack of people you can rely on so that you're not putting all your weight on any one individual.
00:40:34
Speaker
But you're able to spread it out. And and that way you can always get support. And that way you can always give support because everybody's going to need something a little different. you um And the the the secret to that is to learn how to communicate your needs.
00:40:48
Speaker
Yes. And I really fucking struggled with that. I really sort of the autism made me just want people to read my mind. I just want them to read my mind.
00:40:59
Speaker
How did you get yourself into a place where you like, what did you practice in doing that? You know? Well,
00:41:10
Speaker
well, It came from a really dark place. Okay. It wasn't a moment of self-awareness. It was a moment of like a few people who were my friends telling me that I was not as good a friend as I was thinking I was.
00:41:26
Speaker
yeah, Lost a lot of important relationships and had a couple of very public character takedowns that weren't super fair or warranted or needed necessary for the plot, but are not necessary for the plot, but ultimately drove the plot plot forward.
00:41:45
Speaker
um And, you know, when the pandemic started, the world became... ah very terse and very like line in the sand, black and white place.
00:41:57
Speaker
um yeah And I felt like nuance was lost for a long time. i don't even know if it's back yet. I feel like we're still trying to claw that shit back for sure. um But in that dark time, that's when I realized that I communicate differently. I realized I feel differently, realized people can't read my mind. realized that if I create rules for friends,
00:42:20
Speaker
Um, they don't actually know them unless I tell them to them. yeah Um, and, uh, yeah. So I'm just playing a game by myself and being miserable yeah and then, and then you take it out on them and and it's just, up it's a horrible thing.
00:42:34
Speaker
And so I feel like I'm, I'm like four or five years into like being like rehabilitated a, as like a, like a dog from the pound. yeah And it took a lot of shedding of a lot of old friends and old friendships, things that were just outdated, people who are running on different iOS ah information on us.
00:42:56
Speaker
And, you know, there's still, you know, things that come my way where people are like, oh, I heard this about you. And i was like, yeah, five years ago. And i think that the important part of that is like,
00:43:10
Speaker
My therapist is always like, whenever I'm complaining about someone or whatever, something comes up or I bring her something, she's always like, do you believe people believe you can change? And I'm like, yes.
00:43:21
Speaker
And she's like, okay, so we're going to give the same grace to everyone else, right? yeah My therapist is no nonsense. Wow. I love that. I'm a listeners of the show are deeply familiar with my therapist, Scott. Shout out Scott, my favorite boy in the world.
00:43:37
Speaker
um we always We love Scott here, you know? and And he's very similar. He's very like, I've been working with him for five years. And so he's like, yeah at this point, he's like, he knows me. He knows what he's but what i what I'm about.
00:43:48
Speaker
He doesn't cut around like, what if we, and he's like, no, we're not doing that. Right. You know? And I love it. Yeah. I've only made my therapist laugh one time. And then sometimes if I crack a joke, she'll say, okay, cool.
00:44:00
Speaker
Do you want to pay me to make jokes or do you want to pay me to do therapy? Oh,
00:44:06
Speaker
To which I say, to which I say, ah to which I say, I'm always going to make jokes, but I do want to do the therapy part. Thank you so much. She hasn't really done that in a while, mostly because we're in the the right groove of like, just like we For my own organization, we sort of have written a map of all of my issues and all of my triggers and all of my inner stories. And so then every session we pick one and then we extrapolate it.
00:44:36
Speaker
Beautiful. Which is helpful. Yeah. and We've been doing that now for like three years off and on, you know, there's breaks, which is good. Beautiful.
00:44:46
Speaker
Beautiful. i Yeah. i um Shannon, I actually have have adopted this kind of like we we call it like shelter dog moments. Right. I think it came from a meme somewhere. But, you know, but but but we talk about like because we both have moments of like, oh, you know, and we call them shelter dog moments of like, OK, I just I'm just going to need I need you to show me I'm safe. You know what i mean? Because right now I'm like, you know, um and it and and that those are loops that are going to be kind of, you know, in my body for life in some capacity. Right. yeah um But you can.
00:45:17
Speaker
work with them. And you can recognize that, like, you know, ah a shelter dog reacts because, he you know, they were in danger at some point and now they're not. And so just showing them that they're not in danger here. Right.
00:45:28
Speaker
And I think a piece of that is that like, you know, like saying something like, you know, we're here for therapy, not for jokes. Right. that could feel like a ah slap in the right in the wrong context. That could feel like an insult in the wrong context. But recognizing that like you can be put in your place safely.
00:45:47
Speaker
Totally. right And being put in your place isn't always about shame. It isn't always about... It's about, like, why are we playing? you know like why like like like Come back to being serious. Come back to the work that you're doing. yeah Therapy is fucking work.
00:46:00
Speaker
It's not flippant. The only time I made her laugh... It was the start of a session, it was fresh. And she was like, okay, what do you want what do you want to work on today?
00:46:13
Speaker
And because I have a list of things and then I have sort of like a numerical value attributed to them for like where it sits on the trigger scale for me.
00:46:23
Speaker
Every time I pick one, i talk I sort of like assess how that would, what the number trigger would be for me that day. And then what I've noted it as being in the past. So on this morning, i was like, she was like, where do you want to start?
00:46:36
Speaker
Or where do you want to work on today? And I was like, I'll take everybody hates me for five, please. And she laughed like that. And then she was like, that's good. Okay, I want you to blah, blah, blah. And then like, you get into the activity of it all. Yeah, yeah. There's, there's nothing ah i can, I can probably count on one hand, number of times I've, I've gotten like an emotional response, usually laughter from Scott and, Every time, like I live for it, even though I know, i know that's not why we're here. I know, but it's like, there's always going to be a part of me that's like, I want to win therapy.
00:47:11
Speaker
I want to be my therapist's favorite, you know, like I want them to love me. I want them to be, want to be my friend, you know, even though, even though that would destroy the work we're doing, but like, you know, so it's, you I, uh, I saw this meme on the internet the other day. It said, I'll tell you one thing for sure. If I invented healing, it would be linear.
00:47:32
Speaker
Amen, sister. Like, Jesus h Fuck. I have experienced so much grief in my life that... Like any day is kind of like a bit of land mine and it's truly wild, especially like my dad passed in 2020 and then my grandpa passed in 2023. Yeah.
00:47:55
Speaker
And ah just like, it feels like you're just like slow the TVs on in the background and then a memory will come up and I'll either be like,
00:48:08
Speaker
Or be like, oh my God. Like it's truly yeah crazy. You never know. Yeah. Sorry, go
Grief and Friendship Dynamics
00:48:16
Speaker
ahead. No, I was just going to say, i what I want to say, well I had a friend ah once describe grief as this idea of, you know, it never gets smaller.
00:48:24
Speaker
The grief is that size forever. It's always going to be that size. the The work is in creating a bigger container for it. And that's what makes it feel smaller, is that you're not, you know, but like the grief never, it's, you know, it's always there, right? um Grief deepens our soul. It deepens our human experience because grief is the energy of loss, which is one of the only things we all experience. Yeah.
00:48:52
Speaker
Yeah. and And like literally the only other than pissing and shitting and eating, but even then that's questionable. And we also, all those things we experience slightly differently. Like we don't all, we don't all do it the same, right? so And we experience loss differently too. And we also don't value certain types of loss more than others. We don't value the loss of a friend in the same way we value, like, like, like,
00:49:18
Speaker
losing a friendship versus like a family member dying, they can feel the same. Oh yeah. Wisdom is not that it's hierarchical. It's that it's different columns.
00:49:31
Speaker
And I think that that's where people get long. They think it's a listicle. They think it's a top, like all the Marvel movies ranked from one to one to 50. It's not, that's not how it is. I was just talking about this with a friend about the idea of like, there's no ceremony, the way that there's like a ceremony for a breakup, right? In that like, you know that there is, there is yeah I wouldn't call it closure, but we know that there is finality, right? Whether it's a whether it's a good or a bad breakup, whatever, you know that you have broken up.
00:50:00
Speaker
there oftentimes there is no ceremony for, for the loss of a friend. You just suddenly aren't speaking again and you, and you don't always know why I know for myself, I'm all, most of the time I'm like, I don't know. I thought we were cool. For some reason they stopped answering my texts and I don't know what happened, you know, and that,
00:50:17
Speaker
and it is grief, you know, and it is, it is shattering. Um, but there's no ritual. There's no, you know, thing to do. There's no funeral for that.
00:50:28
Speaker
Right. You know? Um, and I don't know, I don't know what to do for that. Right. Totally. I think like I create my own rituals now.
00:50:39
Speaker
I mean, I haven't had a friend breakup in a long time because again, like it's good to have a really sturdy six pack. Yeah. You know, And doing check-ins is so important and and that sort of thing.
00:50:51
Speaker
um Because of the six-pack thing, it does make making friends a little bit more difficult. But I will say that in the last year and a bit, I've made a couple new friends. And um actually two years ago, after ah like two years of not making new friends and just focusing on myself, I was like, I want to make a new friend.
00:51:10
Speaker
I want to go out of my way. And I made a new friend and she's amazing and she's incredible. And I love... that we have very specific things in common and it's so magical.
00:51:21
Speaker
And then the most recent friend that I've made that I'm very, very close to, um I'm not naming names just for the sake of like, it's not that important. Um, perfect it's just, we can finish each other's sentences. It's like, we were like waiting our lives to meet each other.
00:51:39
Speaker
and everything just clicked into place. And i was so nervous and i was, i i kept them at arm's length for a while. And then it just was like, I was like, oh no, like you, you're, you know, you're the, you're the, you're the additional can.
00:51:59
Speaker
And then, and then, oh. oh We haven't talked about how sometimes a six pack can give birth to another can. a little canlet.
00:52:10
Speaker
A canlet. yeah Because that happened to me in the last couple of years. I love this. that is having a toddler around is like ah game changer. i am constantly inspired.
00:52:24
Speaker
i have someone who is experiencing life for the first time. And sharing it with me. And no matter like if, if I'm in the pits and I say to my friend, like, Oh, I don't know how I feel about going to family dinner.
00:52:43
Speaker
She always just says to me like, well, just go hang with, you know, the kid. yeah When you first get there, go in that direction. And I always come away from that being like, but life ain't shit. Like this is so fun.
00:52:56
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Yes. You know, like my problems are not real. Yes. I, I feel like that, that, that, you know, Returning to that root of like, it's not about the hierarchy of age, but I think having elders and, you know, juniors, for lack of better word, you know, infants, you know, in your life consistently, continually, and and being open to all the range of experiences that happen throughout our lifespan and getting access to all those different experiences.
00:53:26
Speaker
at any point in your life, I think is so vital, you know, to to listen to the elder, to listen to the infant, and then to also give back to them as well, you know, to give to give yourself to them, right?
00:53:36
Speaker
There's also this, I hope you find this next story interesting because I find it very interesting. um It covers a lot of what we've just talked about. yeah I was recently asked If I would babysit.
00:53:49
Speaker
ah Fascinating. no no It's been two years. The child has been here for two years. i would say that this child is a friend of mine. We are very close.
00:54:00
Speaker
They are very funny. They love me very much. I but i love them very much. um I've written song a song about them. like it just I love them. yeah When I was asked to babysit,
00:54:11
Speaker
i spun out. I crashed out. I was like, I don't think I'm ready for this. but The inability to say that in text message yes was so such a bizarre feeling. And I was like, okay, can't say this in text message needs to come up naturally in a conversation. Yeah.
00:54:31
Speaker
And my friends are very good at at knowing those, those rhythms. We know those rhythms of each other. We can tell when someone's doing something cause we just pay attention to behavior. And then we're like, Hey, are you in this direction?
00:54:41
Speaker
That interesting. So when I brought it up, I was like, Hey, just want to bring up like you offered to let me babysit, ask me to babysit. And I crashed out a little bit about it.
00:54:53
Speaker
i i don't think i I, don't think I'm ready. um I think that there's a lot of vulnerability there for me and a lot of like scary things for me.
00:55:07
Speaker
And I was like, but um I don't want to not be asked. I would love for you to continue to ask me. um And I want you to know that I am understanding that part of the reason i i did I was scared about this is because it means that I would have to be in charge of someone.
00:55:29
Speaker
And not in charge, but, you know, like present and like all the responsible for them. And I'm and I'm and I'm worried I can't do that. I know that I'm capable, but I'm you know, I'm immediately worried that I can't.
00:55:42
Speaker
And they were basically like, no problem. When we asked you, it was in a group message with one other person. Right. Purposefully to sort of like have you micro dose this experience because it is something that like, you know, we kind of knew.
00:55:58
Speaker
that you know the first time would be difficult to be asked maybe um but we also like might need you in the future so like get your get get yourself in order and i was like well the problem is is that what if like i show up and then they don't like me yeah what if they decide when we're hanging out that they don't like me my friend was literally like then they'll play in the corner and ignore you i was like Yeah.
00:56:23
Speaker
It's almost like they have autonomy too, right? you know Literally. And I was like, gee. I was like, for sure. And they were like, also, you're like, you're their favorite uncle. Like, that they're not.
00:56:35
Speaker
Yeah. And there's something so beautiful ah about getting to be... the the that that like the family aunt. you know um i was just talking the other day about my my favorite person in the world growing up was my Auntie Nancy, who was my mom's best friend. right you know Favorite person in the whole wide world. Anytime she was over, I was like, today's a good day. Four-year-old me just like...
00:57:02
Speaker
yes, Auntie Nancy's here, right? and and and And getting to be that for other kids is one of life's great joys. you know yeah I find that I take my responsibility very seriously. Like if me and my friends like go out into public,
00:57:17
Speaker
And there's a child and the child interacts with me. I'm like, oh, they must know. Like the the the kids are, the kids connect via Bluetooth through the air. I don't know how the technology works. yeah yeah And then they get information that like, that's an uncle, that's an auntie.
00:57:32
Speaker
You can absolutely like, they have snacks and they, yeah they're they're cool. You know, they're cool. They're cool. They got pouches. yeah They're like, they're, they're down. They're down.
00:57:45
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, ah it is really magic, though. And it it really, you know, it's a weird thing to say, but it's like it's like, yeah, you need to get more kids in your life. You know, i think for I think listeners in general, I think myself included ah is something I'm that's killing me right now is that I have I have two nieces and a nephew in how like just outside Halifax.
00:58:05
Speaker
And they're all, you know, like ah two of them are like, you know, 10 ish range and the other one's brand new, like like like, you know, less than a year old. And I'm just like, I just get to watch them grow up through screens and it's it's killing me.
00:58:18
Speaker
You know, um my my brother has three kids and he lives in Cranbrook and I watch them through the screen, too. And it's it's it's tough. And i i think that he resents me a little bit for it, but I try and when I'm there, I try and show up as best I can.
00:58:35
Speaker
um But there is a difference between being around a child for a long time. And so I think I'm on the verge because the baby was just born in in June. I think i'm going to send them.
00:58:45
Speaker
a bunch of photos of me in a frame so that you can be like, this is your, this is your, face yeah sometimes they come around and when they come around, ah so you don't hurt their feelings, you should be nice to them.
00:58:58
Speaker
yeah That fully happened with with my, with my niece, with my, but the the oldest niece. Uh, she, every time i see her in person is basically like re-meeting her because she has no time for me because she's like, well, you're never around. You know, it's like basically like I'm the deadbeat dad that she doesn't have. you know um And so she gets to take that energy out on me of like, well, I haven't seen you in two years.
00:59:21
Speaker
What do you think I'm going to hug you now? you know My mom's always like, go play with Nyla. I was like, Nyla doesn't like me. yeah and then And then I figured it out. I was like, i was like, food.
00:59:31
Speaker
Yeah. Oh yeah, feed them. So then I'd be like, I'd bring a bag of chips and I'd like open and be like, you want a chip? And she'd be See, i got in good I got in good with my nephew because we're both into Pokemon.
00:59:42
Speaker
So that's my in, right? right you know yeah ah but But my niece couldn't give less of a shit about Pokemon. So I'm like, I'm still looking, you know, she really likes hockey. And I'm like, well, girl, you know.
00:59:53
Speaker
you know ah you you You go bond with your dad over that. Exactly, right? I know. I was like, don't you want to paint your nails? Don't you want to like put on pretty dresses? Like, come on. what ah no, no.
01:00:04
Speaker
No, James, the other gay. got to talk to her about being the other gay. You're bisexual. Go in the other direction. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Doc Martens, flannel, bass guitar.
01:00:15
Speaker
My nails are hot pink and yours are blue because that's the two genders. Right, right. Because binary is real. no.
01:00:24
Speaker
Oh my God. Dust, um i'm I'm just, I'm clocking the time here and, and I don't want to, you know, I'm having such a great time chatting with you. And I, but I also want to ah kind of start the wrap up because I feel like we could just chat forever.
Micro-Communities and Connection
01:00:40
Speaker
that's so encouraging. um um I just, I, I want to just be your friend in real life.
01:00:46
Speaker
And I also like, just want to get you back on the show again, you know? Yeah. But before we we wrap up, I have two i have two kind of things i wanted to... ah ah one One question and then one other thing I kind of wanted to circle back about.
01:00:57
Speaker
um Because we talked a lot about this idea of of you know building these micro communities. And this is something that I'm really onto. to The last couple of years has really forced me to to to really shrink my friend group and really be mindful of that.
01:01:12
Speaker
um And I'm curious, in your experience... um how How does someone go about practicing that? Like, what what would be some kind of, you know, so you know i i it's funny, I'm always asking for advice, but I'm always hesitant to use the word advice, you know, ah just for for listeners of like, if somebody were trying to start that road, where would you recommend they start to explore that?
01:01:39
Speaker
Well, I don't have an answer or any advice for you in that. silver ah For me, people left. And they told me they were leaving. yeah Well, some told me they were leaving and some just left.
01:01:52
Speaker
So, like, unfortunately, I don't have an answer to that. So first you have to have a um a nervous breakdown and then go from there. You got to be, like, consistently...
01:02:04
Speaker
distant and strange friend who doesn't connect people because you don't know that you're autistic. yep and And you also have to be in an anxiety induced monster who treats people like trash.
01:02:17
Speaker
yeah um And then, and then they will leave and then you're good. yeah um No one. Um, no, I don't even know where I would like, I, I think that it would take a lot more time than we have on this podcast for me to sit and think about what I would do. Yeah.
01:02:37
Speaker
Um, but I'm polyamorous and I would deescalate the friendship and I've, I've done it a couple of times since, but because
01:02:50
Speaker
Yeah, I guess that's related to your question. i it's It's about being like, is this a friend you see every week? Is this a friend you see every three months? And then learning how to communicate that.
01:03:01
Speaker
And I have one friend who did that really, really well with me. She was like, listen, like, you're very dear to me, but I don't have a lot of time. yeah And she was like, I know that you would love to see me every week or every other week, but I don't think that that will work for me.
01:03:16
Speaker
And they were just very, very, very, very open about that. And it took me a long time to stomach it. But in the world of poly, we deal with our stuff. We process our things outside of our relationships so we don't make it their problem. Because when someone is bold enough to tell you what they need, you should be bold enough to sit down with it and figure it out. And it took me a minute, but I figured it out.
01:03:38
Speaker
And that led to when my previous relationship de-escalated. breakup, whatever you want to call it. um There was sort of a framework for that.
01:03:48
Speaker
And I remember him saying, like, I think this needs to be like this relationship. And I was like, amazing yeah I was like, because I've already done the work on that. So thank you for asking for the thing that I have already done.
01:04:02
Speaker
um but the thing with it is, is like that it's there for everything. You know, when some, the biggest act of love someone can do for you is for them to tell you what they need. Yeah. And true when you tell them what you need and it doesn't match.
01:04:17
Speaker
The biggest thing is to say, It's fine. Yeah. Like, ah obviously, I would love to see my friend more. Sure. But she doesn't have the capacity for that. So it's either unfriend, don't be friends anymore, or look like, find a new perspective to look at that, which is that she's willing to still commit to it, know? Mm hmm.
01:04:39
Speaker
I love that. I love that. That actually builds into the the the last sort of show question I have for you, which is I really i try to always leave listeners with some kind of like actionable thing that they can try out.
01:04:51
Speaker
And I'm curious, yeah what is one thing listeners could try doing this week to be a more effective friend to themselves or to their community around them? An effective friend for yourself or someone else around you.
01:05:10
Speaker
What I'm gonna do going i'm going to
01:05:16
Speaker
I want you to think about a friend, whether they live in the same city as you or not, and I want you to send them a piece of mail. I want you to physically sit down and I want you to write about the things that you love about that person. You write them with your words, with a pen and a piece of paper.
01:05:34
Speaker
And I want you to inconvenience yourself by having to go to the post office and buy a stamp and send it to them. Um, because lost are sometimes at screenshots do not, are not the same vibe.
01:05:49
Speaker
And as someone who likes to collect physical things as mementos, like that's empowering for my fans. I have, a spreadsheet of their names and addresses. And I send them postcards a couple of times a year, stay connected in that way, because those are the moments that are cherished.
01:06:07
Speaker
So physically send someone a piece of mail this week, whether they're your neighbor or whether they're in New York. Yeah. Oh, yeah i love I love that. I love it. I'm good to i'm already like, who am I? like I often ask for the you know for the for the thing for listeners, but but more often than not, I end up being like, oh I'm going to do that. But that is one that I'm like, oh, I'm going to do that because that is magic. I love it. I like doing i started getting a little misty just thinking about who I was like, like who would am going to write to? And i then the names came and I was like, oh, there's going to be you know tear-flecked letters there, right?
01:06:41
Speaker
Yeah. Well, my really good friend is away for work for two months and I intend on sending her like I intend on sending her postcards a couple times a week.
01:06:51
Speaker
Yeah. They're constantly flowing through for her because she's not a very good texter. things you understand and learn about your friends. And so, you know, it'll be a cherished moment for sure.
01:07:04
Speaker
There's nothing better than getting to postcard. God, I love getting postcards. It's the best. Dust, where can listeners find you? Where would you like to point them?
Conclusion and Future Works
01:07:15
Speaker
Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at UnicornRiverChild or you can visit my website, dustquain.ca D-U-S-T-C-W-A-I-N-E C-A.
01:07:26
Speaker
On my website, you can find any kind of streaming service for my music. You can find a calendar of upcoming shows. You can find incredible photography. You can buy, you can pre-order my second, um my sophomore album, Twin Lakes, which comes out in September.
01:07:43
Speaker
yeah Pre-order it on vinyl, um which is very exciting. And, um yeah, that's pretty much it. That's the spiel. Beautiful, beautiful. but That was going to be my my my last thing, too, because I know i was going to say, I know you've got your next album coming out. and I'm really excited I've been listening to that to the the single, the Twin Lakes single, and I love it. Oh, my use God.
01:08:02
Speaker
um I did remember the name of that one. Of course, it's because it's the name of the album. So I was like, I could get that one, you know? But... do you would you Do you want me to send you like ah Dust Queen exclusive, like maybe send you a track to play at the end of the podcast so your fans can like hear an exclusive?
01:08:21
Speaker
ah yeah More than anything. More than anything. That's all I want in this world. like i but i'm i'm i You are incredible. does Dust Queen, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for talking to me. I'm just like, i i oh i I'm going to get so appropriate because I was like, I already had a big crush on you. Now I'm just like, oh my Jesus Christ. you know Now we can't meet because I'm going to be so weird. you know I'm totally okay with that. i
01:08:54
Speaker
I am poly, single, and ready to mingle. and um think ah I think what's great about this, and I just want to thank you so much for being so organized and having a Calendly link.
01:09:07
Speaker
Oh, life that makes so much easier. Life-changing. Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. You're so welcome. You're so welcome.
01:09:25
Speaker
And that's it. Thank you so much. One more time to Dust for coming on the show. It was such a pleasure to chat with them, get to know them a little bit. And yeah, I'm really kind of admittedly struggling for words to ah say how much that that interview meant to me.
01:09:41
Speaker
be sure if you aren't already to follow dust uh on instagram through the links in the show notes and go check out their new album twin lakes it's going be coming out in september you will not want to miss that one and hey if you enjoyed this conversation be sure to leave the podcast a five star review wherever you listened and if you want more friendless content why not check out the friendless sub stack?
01:10:03
Speaker
I decided I wasn't happy with what I was putting out and so I've done a total refresh I've kind of re-evaluated the kind of content I want to put out um so that will be coming down the pipeline soon um I'm just kind of giving myself a little bit of a little bit of breathing room I don't have to get into it right now but um subscribe you will get all the updates there's gonna be tons of fun stuff behind the scenes lots of essay writing all kinds of goodies It's going to be completely free.
01:10:30
Speaker
So check that out through the links in the show notes. But I want to wrap up because I have an incredible, exclusive, brand new song by the one and only Dust Kowain coming up here in a moment. So um I just want to do quick housekeeping and say thank you so much for listening to this episode. Thank you for coming back.
01:10:49
Speaker
I'll be back again next week with a brand new episode, and I hope you will join me then. But I'm not going to worry about that right now, and neither should you, because that is then, and this is now.
01:11:00
Speaker
So for now, I'll just say I love you, and I wish you well. Fun and safety, sweet peas. My name is Dust Quain, and this is my newest single, Jupiter.
01:11:11
Speaker
And you can find it on my upcoming album, Twin Lakes. I hope you enjoy it
01:11:28
Speaker
I was just a kid. Didn't have to go that hard. Yeah, I'm grown up now. Just want hear that you're proud. the great optimist.
01:11:41
Speaker
Jupiter and Cancer in the first house. Follow stars. Life hits me down, but I ain't no slouch.
01:11:52
Speaker
Faster than this Life's a master Class lying on the list You sent me to the wind Let me show you where I've been I'm the greatest
01:12:23
Speaker
It's long enough.
01:12:41
Speaker
Take my word for it. The answer's hidden in your scars. Yeah, that sink on my heart. I hope you know you played your part.
01:12:52
Speaker
I'm the great optimist. Seven planets in Capricorn. I'm bored. Fuck the stars. Life keeps coming and I want more.
01:13:03
Speaker
I can't grow up faster than this. Life's a master class line on the list. You send me to the wind.
01:13:15
Speaker
Let me show you where I've been. I'm the great I love.
01:14:16
Speaker
forget all the things I've said and done That you said I'm part of love I missed you my friend And I won't forget what you've done
01:14:37
Speaker
I'm the great optimist. I'm the great optimist. If I sing it loud enough, I'll make you believe that I'm strong enough.