Transcript
Speaker: In general, most of us, at least in some arenas, struggle to find vocabulary.
Speaker: And we struggle to know how to put into words what we're feeling.
Speaker: And so good devotional art or devotion in general, I've always found it just speaks plainly, poetically maybe, but just it says something that I've been thinking and feeling, but I haven't been able to know.
Speaker: I don't know how to put it into words.
Speaker: Hello, everybody.
Speaker: Welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John, the host.
Speaker: Today, I'm joined by John Van Dusen, who is a singer-songwriter that I've discovered this year.
Speaker: I started listening to a lot of his stuff as I was kind of starting to plan for this podcast and doing a lot of Hamlet.
Speaker: And Hamlet's angsty, and some of his stuff was angsty, so it just kind of...
Speaker: Fit together well.
Speaker: But John is based out of Anacordas, Washington.
Speaker: He was the songwriter and frontman for The Lonely Forest, which was kind of like an indie rock alternative band in the 2000s and 2010s.
Speaker: And now, after a hiatus, has kind of been doing his own...
Speaker: Indie music.
Speaker: It's kind of a, I have a hard time like explaining to people what your music sounds like.
Speaker: Cause it's kind of all over the place and eclectic, but I, I really liked that.
Speaker: Um, but a lot of, a lot of rich lyrics.
Speaker: So if, if me inviting him on the podcast, wasn't enough of a recommendation for you guys to listen to his music, then here's my official recommendation.
Speaker: Go listen to his music.
Speaker: Um, yeah.
Speaker: How are you doing, John?
Speaker: I'm good.
Speaker: Hello.
Speaker: Hello, everybody.
Speaker: Sweet.
Speaker: So yeah, you're based out of Anacortes.
Speaker: You have one kid and have another one on the way.
Speaker: Is that right?
Speaker: Yes, so my wife and I, we live here in Anacortes with our son, who will turn four January 1st, and we have a little girl due anytime.
Speaker: So it could be tomorrow, could be in a couple weeks.
Speaker: I'm actually sitting in her bedroom right now, so.
Speaker: We are preparing for that massive shift in our environment and our dynamic, but we're excited.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: Yeah, how about you?
Speaker: That's super cool.
Speaker: Yeah, so I'm married.
Speaker: I've got my wife, Shay.
Speaker: We're based in Grand Rapids, Michigan, so...
Speaker: Our big art things that we do that kind of take up our life is I do a lot of theater.
Speaker: So mostly acting and directing.
Speaker: I have a production I'm trying to get going in connection to the podcast, which is fun and also terrifying because I'm doing the creative side and the business side, and it's that artistic production.
Speaker: push pull of that.
Speaker: And then my wife writes a lot of poetry is kind of her thing.
Speaker: Great.
Speaker: Which is super cool.
Speaker: You know, I was in Godspell.
Speaker: And actually, that was
Speaker: how I met my good friend, Braden Krueger, who ended up playing drums in the lonely forest.
Speaker: He was cast as, he was Jesus.
Speaker: And I was the John the Baptist slash Judas character.
Speaker: So that's how, that's how him and I, um, that's how he and I connected.
Speaker: And I really enjoyed doing that production.
Speaker: It was very difficult for me because
Speaker: singing and dancing simultaneously was, it was a new level of focus and rehearsal.
Speaker: I had never experienced that.
Speaker: Now I was also a 10th grader.
Speaker: So who knows what it would be like now, but.
Speaker: Well, I'm still not adept at that.
Speaker: Oh, I love that music.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I've, that's the one I'm trying to put on and I've wanted to do that for like,
Speaker: five years.
Speaker: My brother and I grew up on it because my mom is low-key kind of a hippie, like Jesus music type person.
Speaker: So like that original cast recording from the 70s that's very hippie.
Speaker: That's just like her vibe.
Speaker: She loves that.
Speaker: And so she just kind of passed that on to my brother and I. So I like... I'm like... I could probably talk about that for a whole hour.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't know about it, but I just...
Speaker: I brought it up because when I was looking at your website, I saw that.
Speaker: I saw the Godspell page, and so I thought I'd share that I got to be a part of it.
Speaker: But I love how simple it is.
Speaker: And I found that even with the really simple set pieces and a lot of it being pantomime, it translates so well.
Speaker: And the music's obviously very good.
Speaker: You know the scene at the end where...
Speaker: Christ is tied to the electric fence.
Speaker: Well, in our version, our production, that song, that kind of like epic song that's playing during the crucifixion, I played a guitar solo.
Speaker: So as a sophomore in high school, like I went over and put on this Gibson SG and played the guitar solo as Christ is experiencing the crucifixion.
Speaker: And it's just, it's strangely profound
Speaker: It's a strangely profound work of art, especially for a high school to put on.
Speaker: So anyways, good memories.
Speaker: I also saw you're going to be like back to talk about music, but I saw that you were one day hoping to become a chaplain, which I thought was interesting.
Speaker: My dad is a police and fire chaplain.
Speaker: Oh, nice.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So that's, that's cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: He was, uh, he worked in, has worked in ministry my entire life and he went from being a pastor of a local church to retiring there and then stepping into, um, chaplaincy.
Speaker: So that's kind of his focus here in our, our small little town.
Speaker: And I have a lot of respect for chaplains subsequently because what I've seen my dad do so.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker: I love the, and I mean, this is a lot of what I love in the arts too, as like a director.
Speaker: And when I get to, to work with people and talk to people as I'm like shaping something, like I love just being able to meet people where they are at and like, just be like, let's just navigate this together and have somebody by your side.
Speaker: And then maybe I can ask a question that, that helps you kind of connect again with, with God or get some wheels turning or something.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Yeah, I love chaplaincy.
Speaker: I know a couple and I love just that like, I mean, I feel like it's a very Christ-like idea of like, let's just sit in the pain with the person and let's just exist because the hard things in life are there.
Speaker: So yeah, I think it would be.
Speaker: Really cool.
Speaker: And I've always had, that's part of why I'm doing this podcast.
Speaker: I've always had this sort of call to ministry.
Speaker: And, and it's, it's always been this challenge of how do I do both?
Speaker: Cause he definitely made me to create and be an artist.
Speaker: And then also, yeah.
Speaker: very clearly every time that I pray about it, he's like, hey, do a ministry thing in some sense.
Speaker: And chaplaincy, I've felt as I've navigated that seems like it's kind of a good, for me at least, like a good middle ground where a church could be almost as a pastor all-consuming, like that's your life, you know.
Speaker: But chaplaincy, like I can go in and I can do it and I can really pour in in that time.
Speaker: But it also kind of protects me a little bit in like when I'm on the clock, I'm on the clock and
Speaker: I'm off the clock, I can do the other areas vocationally that God's kind of called me to.
Speaker: So yeah, well, and you can also use the tools that you've gained and learned the wisdom you've gleaned, like training to become a chaplain in the, in your world as a director.
Speaker: Actually, I have a friend named Nigel Goodwin who lives in England and he
Speaker: he had a home with his spouse in the West End and was heavily involved in theater and was actually a BBC actor in certain moments.
Speaker: He's like 82 maybe.
Speaker: But listening to him tell stories about their home in the West End in the like,
Speaker: I wanna say the 60s and 70s, it was essentially an open door.
Speaker: And of course a ministry, now they wouldn't have said that to all of their fellow actors, but it was just at all times, there were people in and out of productions that would just come and be at their house.
Speaker: And I mean, it's kind of a no brainer, but obviously the core, the essence of chaplaincy can be utilized wherever you are.
Speaker: I mean,
Speaker: A good director helps the person, the actor feel safe and comfortable with themselves, right?
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I mean, yeah, there's, I think it was Walt Williams, who was one of my, like, he like got me started in being able to explore directing.
Speaker: And he learned a lot from the founder of Master Arts Theater, which is the community theater I do a lot of stuff at, but he was like,
Speaker: A lot of times a director is not just a director.
Speaker: They're also a producer and they're also a counselor.
Speaker: Because especially if you have heavy roles, and like I know I've done this to other directors where I've had a heavy role.
Speaker: Like I played Mr. Banks in Mary Poppins when I was 17 and my parents were divorced.
Speaker: And that's like a story of a family that's like heading that way that then doesn't.
Speaker: And I'm like, wow, that poor director that had a kid didn't.
Speaker: dealing with like years of his own parents divorce and was like, I just wanted to do Mary Poppins.
Speaker: It's like working through all his life past trauma.
Speaker: But there's, there's a lot of realness to that.
Speaker: I, I don't know if it's,
Speaker: God's sovereignty or if it's the stories that draw, like actors are drawn to stories that match their experiences or probably a mix of those.
Speaker: But a lot of times, I think even just in art in general, what we end up working on is something that in that moment resonates with either what we're walking through now or what we have walked through and need to deal with now.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Even when it's yeah, hopefully if it's done well, sometimes it's just me, but yeah.
Speaker: I mean, I think so.
Speaker: I recently started writing songs as a part of my job and signing a publishing deal and writing songs.
Speaker: You kind of have, you have a quota, right?
Speaker: I have to, I have to deliver so many songs and especially within the Christian space, I think,
Speaker: there is a danger where you're just manufacturing something in hopes that someone else would want to sing it and then that it would go well financially.
Speaker: And so I do think when I say, hopefully I just mean, it is really easy to kind of find a rhythm.
Speaker: Rhythm is actually probably too healthy of a word.
Speaker: A, what's the term?
Speaker: A formula.
Speaker: Like pattern or habit.
Speaker: Yeah, a formula.
Speaker: And like, okay, this is what works.
Speaker: And it may not even reflect where I'm at personally or what I'm truly thinking about in regards to my relationship with God.
Speaker: I'm just going to kind of write what I think works and then hope that it connects.
Speaker: Obviously, God can use that however God wants.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah, well, I think even on like an organizational level, like...
Speaker: Again, being on the board at Master Arts and I help kind of pick the plays and things like that.
Speaker: So there's a lot of times where we're like, man, we have some really rich, artistically meaty scripts that we'd love our actors to be able to tackle and we think are important shows to share with our audience.
Speaker: And then we look at our bottom line and we're like, hmm...
Speaker: maybe we should do Little House on the Prairie again, or Sound of Music, or Wind Calls the Heart, which is like a Canadian romance thing that is kind of as deep as a kiddie pool.
Speaker: So it's like... And there's definitely, you know, there needs to be provision as well.
Speaker: So sometimes there's... And our audience loves those.
Speaker: So it provides something.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: I recently went and watched the Anacortes High School do Mean Girls and you know, I kind of knew somewhat what I was getting myself into based upon the film, which I think is pretty funny.
Speaker: It was a very funny play, pretty risky for high school, although Anacortes High School has a history of just pushing the edges and limits, I think, in the theater department in a really good way.
Speaker: But I also teared up a good handful of times in this Mean Girls production because they, even though it's kind of packaged in this dramedy comedy format,
Speaker: it still strikes at the core of what we all struggle with, which is trying to fit in and belong, figure out who we are, whether or not we're worthy of love.
Speaker: And I say that basically as an example, it would be easy to pass Mean Girls off as trite, but the truth is it's not.
Speaker: And actually when it's done well, I think especially every young woman in that audience or just woman in general, I think felt that because there's this immense pressure, especially put on high school girls to just be
Speaker: oftentimes something they don't want to be or can never be.
Speaker: And so anyways, I think even with the sound of music, like you said, like, oh, man, I'd rather put on, you know, name a deeper or more thoughtful play.
Speaker: But I mean, gosh, I tear up any time someone sings Edelweiss to me.
Speaker: It doesn't matter.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's beautiful.
Speaker: So should we talk about, should we talk about India rock?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Yes, let's.
Speaker: I would talk about, I would talk about theater and these things all the time, Christian film, directing screen, screenplays.
Speaker: I love it all.
Speaker: So I, I'll gladly talk about anything, but I, I, you know, I don't want to hijack the podcast.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: We'll, we'll talk again and then you can interview me about theater and I'll.
Speaker: Perfect.
Speaker: We'll go on all the experiences.
Speaker: So I'm curious, first of all, what are some artistic projects that you're working on right now?
Speaker: You mentioned that you're kind of doing it as songwriting as a job now.
Speaker: So that's definitely one piece of that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I write songs now as a part of a publishing company.
Speaker: These songs specifically are corporate worship and hymns, which is something I've always wanted to do.
Speaker: And there is a forever...
Speaker: there is forever a tension within that art because almost on a daily basis, I have to come before God and say, look, I want to do this for the right reasons.
Speaker: I would love to write the next In Christ Alone or How Deep the Father's Love for Us, or I would love to write the next.
Speaker: goodness of God, a song that people are going to sing all over the world, because what an honor to be a part of that.
Speaker: I would also really love for that to pay for my child's school if he ever wanted to go.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's, that is a realistic tension that I live with every day.
Speaker: And it feels even more dramatic because I'm specifically hired to write songs for the church.
Speaker: it would be different if I was writing songs for Katy Perry or Kesha, which I would love to do, but I'm not.
Speaker: So I do that.
Speaker: My solo music is kind of forever changing, but as I get older and as I grow closer to the Lord, as my Christian faith, my love of Jesus becomes increasingly central to who I am,
Speaker: I think it focuses me a bit more.
Speaker: And so the big project that's on my mind right now is my next solo record, which will be, for lack of a better term, an alternative worship record.
Speaker: And a lot of those songs are structured in a way that, I mean, they're meant to be sung by a corporate group of people, like in a church or wherever.
Speaker: So that's kind of what's on my mind right now.
Speaker: There's lots of songs to choose from.
Speaker: I have a working title and I, I obsessed over these projects.
Speaker: And I think of all my projects in terms of albums, I can't divorce myself from that structure, probably because of when I grew up.
Speaker: You know, I was starting to make music in the early 2000s and the Internet hadn't quite taken over.
Speaker: And.
Speaker: You know, we weren't thinking of algorithms, we were still just making trying to make the best album we could.
Speaker: And so I'm still stuck there.
Speaker: And I think in a way I'll probably always be there.
Speaker: Well, I think part of that, too, I think I talked about this on the last episode, but I think either the last one or the one before that I love.
Speaker: I'm very much a product of the internet.
Speaker: You know, I was late nineties born and raised, so I've like,
Speaker: I kind of seen the transition, but most of my life's been like that Spotify, you can pick whatever song you want.
Speaker: But I love sitting down and like your second album, Every Power Wide Awake is one of the ones I love to sit down and do this with of just listen through the whole album and see, like, I love that there's individual pieces of art in it that like, if I want to, I can listen to one of those songs, but at the same time, like the artist, like,
Speaker: And then God, through the art, puts it all together into a whole, which is probably my theater-loving side that's like, let's see the whole show come together.
Speaker: But I think you do that really well.
Speaker: I love that that's a lot of times the structure of those albums is it's one kind of big ebbing and flowing piece.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Yeah, that's really important to me.
Speaker: And that means a lot to me that you'd say it because I think about it.
Speaker: I think about track order, how songs flow together, songs being related to one another.
Speaker: I think of them as siblings or spouses or cousins.
Speaker: A lot of family imagery comes to mind.
Speaker: Like the first song should be related to the last song.
Speaker: And I...
Speaker: I have other projects I'm working on.
Speaker: I have a, I can't go into too much detail, but I'm, I have another record to release with Tooth and Nail, which is one of the record labels I've been on.
Speaker: And the record that they licensed from me, I really love and it's finished.
Speaker: Right now I'm struggling to decide whether or not I really want to release it because it reflects who I used to be very heavily.
Speaker: Songs I wrote 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 years ago.
Speaker: And they kind of exude this chaos and this anarchy and this tension because they all came from a place of depression and anxiety, a time in which I was really...
Speaker: hectic.
Speaker: And when I listen to it now, it just kind of bums me out.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: So I've actually been talking with them.
Speaker: I mean, this is more information than I probably should be giving, but anyways, they've been working with me to kind of figure that out, like, cause they're really generous and kind and, you know, level-headed people.
Speaker: And so they've been walking me through this process.
Speaker: Like, if do you want to release this?
Speaker: And if not, what can we release instead?
Speaker: So I've been kind of thinking that through, like, do I want to release that record or can I release something different that reflects who I am now?
Speaker: I'm in a band called- That's an interesting conflict.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: It is an interesting conflict and one I didn't expect.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I've got a lot of projects I'm working on.
Speaker: I am always working on projects.
Speaker: I have a, there's an artist friend of mine named Jeff Johnson.
Speaker: He was on Sparrow Records in the 80s.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: Like he's been around a long time.
Speaker: He makes new age music.
Speaker: And so him and I did this kind of low key for fun new age project.
Speaker: Now, when I say new age, I don't mean like spiritual new age.
Speaker: I mean like new age, um, ambient or classical, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker: And that will come out in February.
Speaker: It's like one long song.
Speaker: And it's just this, it's just, it kind of like he, he would do a, a four minute movement and I would do one to in response.
Speaker: His sound a little bit more.
Speaker: new agey than mine even they're more like inya um i i'm not very versed in the new age genre but anyways so that's coming out but otherwise i'm mostly focused on my alt worship record which yeah i want my goal is always to make something that's never been made now i might fail miserably at that goal i don't think i'll film miserably i might fail but
Speaker: That's my goal.
Speaker: My goal is for someone to put in the record and think I've never heard anything quite like it.
Speaker: And usually when I think that way, I'm thinking of as a whole, like you said, like listening to every power wide awake from start to finish.
Speaker: My hope is that the next one feels
Speaker: unusual and new and I don't know.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What are some alike, what's, I don't know how I'm phrasing this question.
Speaker: I started before all the words were there.
Speaker: I don't know, like the difference of writing with the goal of having other people sing your music in mind versus writing just to create the piece like that.
Speaker: That's something that interests me about like him work and, and, and something like that where it's more worship and you,
Speaker: want people to be able to join in with it?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's a good question.
Speaker: Really, it's just a change of perspective.
Speaker: Lyrically, it just means that I try to use corporate language.
Speaker: Now, I personal devotional, like devotional art is really important to me.
Speaker: So there will be plenty of devotional art on this record.
Speaker: It just means that there will be more, it'll be more populated with songs that are, you know,
Speaker: I don't know how else to say it, but just like a group of people coming before the Lord, singing a prayer, asking for God to do something in us.
Speaker: You know, may your will be done in us, not necessarily may your will be done in me.
Speaker: But it also means that I have to consider a song's ability to connect with a wider audience.
Speaker: And usually in my case, that means aesthetics and production.
Speaker: So my tendency is to push the limits
Speaker: to take risks, to make everything a little edgy.
Speaker: And so in this case, I want plenty of that on the record, but I also need moments where, without betraying my own tastes, there are a few songs where my mom,
Speaker: and your mother-in-law could hopefully, I'm just throwing out names, like people of different tastes and ages could hear it.
Speaker: And if their church going to think, oh, I connect with this, this is beautiful, this is lovely.
Speaker: So I just have to be more aware with what I'm doing.
Speaker: And I will say that when people
Speaker: I work with, like on my team or my label, ask me to dole the edges or to make things not as sharp or as edgy.
Speaker: It does the opposite in me.
Speaker: It makes me want to start my worship record with four minutes of distortion for real.
Speaker: And so I don't know if God has made me this way for a reason.
Speaker: If it's, there's probably some good, probably some good and probably some not so good in that in me, but I really like to push back on
Speaker: people who want me to play nice.
Speaker: So that's a tension I have right now going, going into this record.
Speaker: Yeah, I get that.
Speaker: I feel talking about my project Godspell.
Speaker: I even feel that a little bit with that.
Speaker: Cause I, part of my vision,
Speaker: has been to really set it in our culture today.
Speaker: And I really want this idea of, if Christ came today, how would he be completely different from everything that everybody actually wanted him to be, and how would he not map onto any of our preconceived tracks that we can put people on culturally?
Speaker: And so I know especially...
Speaker: Early on as I've been working on it, like I got really in the, oh, I'm going to, we can have this little moment that like confronts this thing and this thing confront that thing.
Speaker: And I like got really big into like that, that edginess of it and like that,
Speaker: like a contrarian for Christ kind of thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Where it's like somebody says one thing and I'm like, that doesn't quite map to what Christ said, so I'm going to say the thing that maybe you need to think about on this side, but then somebody from this side might say something and I'm like, well, wait, there's also this angle.
Speaker: And I do feel like there's a good and a bad of that.
Speaker: Some of that can be almost a prophetic thing of like, if something makes you uncomfortable to get you back to Christ...
Speaker: Like that might be a, you might need to kind of be shaken out of that comfortability a little bit, which is definitely my tendency too, of like, let's, let's get uncomfortable.
Speaker: Cause a lot of times when you're uncomfortable is where God wants to work on you.
Speaker: This, these were creepy hands.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: God's a weird massage therapist.
Speaker: I'm going to work on you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I, I think that as long as we,
Speaker: we do that with humility and grace.
Speaker: And I often think that one of the good things for us to do is to turn, turn it on ourselves and to make sure we're not presenting this, um, like putting ourselves on some weird pedestal of hierarchy or, um, I like, like when, when someone in a pastoral position is willing to be vulnerable and say, this is,
Speaker: This is a hard truth and I also struggle with this hard truth.
Speaker: It endears us to them and it immediately helps us feel like we're on the same page and we can relate.
Speaker: So I think, but it is difficult because in our current culture, there's a tendency within art to always be messaging.
Speaker: It's like every situation is a potential messaging moment.
Speaker: And I will say that even in like modern TV and film, sometimes I just roll my eyes because it feels like every scene is trying to get something across.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I, like, I think about this way sometimes when, so like I love, for example, I love, um,
Speaker: for lack of a better term, I love girl power movies and situations.
Speaker: I love it when I see a woman character kick a lot of butt.
Speaker: It makes me really happy.
Speaker: And I'm about to have a daughter, and so I think about that.
Speaker: And sometimes certain films and TV and drama does that so effortlessly.
Speaker: that I just think it just gets you.
Speaker: And sometimes you can tell they're trying to manufacture that in a way that feels insincere and it doesn't get me.
Speaker: And I don't know, we could probably spend a lot of time dissecting that, but-
Speaker: Well, I feel like that almost goes back to what you're talking about with that Mean Girls production.
Speaker: Like the heart behind it and how much you're caring to try and actually get to like the real, the realness of the story and the truth of it as opposed to, oh, I want to make sure I platform this, you know, or that we have this moment because it's important instead of because it's like real, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Not that it isn't important, not that you shouldn't, but...
Speaker: I think, especially I think Christian artists have historically struggled with this of like, okay, how do we get to the realness of the art underneath as opposed to just saying the formula or saying the right things?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You mentioned devotional art, and I vibe with that hardcore.
Speaker: I feel like.
Speaker: looking back in my life, like I can see the big movements of ways God's worked in me in my life are a lot of times mapped to the show I've been in and the art I've been working on.
Speaker: Um, are there ways that you feel like, I don't know, I guess what to you is important about using art as a sort of devotion?
Speaker: Um, and are there any like really memorable moments with that, that, um,
Speaker: I don't know, you feel like you're willing to share like, oh, this was a good time that that was used.
Speaker: Well, some people have a gift of... Did you hear my kid yelling?
Speaker: I did.
Speaker: Mom, where are you?
Speaker: It's actually a miracle he hasn't come in and tried to close the computer.
Speaker: Praise God for that.
Speaker: I think some people are gifted communicators and they have an ability to say whether through words or music or visual art.
Speaker: They have a way of communicating things that are easy to grab ahold of, easy to understand.
Speaker: And I think the general
Speaker: in general, most of us, at least in some arenas, struggle to find vocabulary.
Speaker: And we struggle to know how to put into words what we're feeling.
Speaker: And so good devotional art or devotion in general, I've always found it just speaks plainly, poetically maybe, but just it says something that I've been thinking and feeling, but I haven't been able to know, I don't know how to put it into words.
Speaker: And so
Speaker: when it comes to music, songs and records that give people vocabulary and almost like a guided prayer, like lead them closer to God and says things that they've been wanting to say, but didn't know how, that's super important to me.
Speaker: And
Speaker: Sometimes we don't know it's okay to say certain things to God or pray certain things or even think certain thoughts.
Speaker: And devotional art can do that for us, can be really courageous and take a risk.
Speaker: And then people kind of gravitate towards that and realize like, oh, it is okay for me to be angry at God right now.
Speaker: God's not afraid of my anger.
Speaker: So if a devotion speaks to that, it's really helpful.
Speaker: I think of Every Moment Holy, the book of prayer and liturgy, or maybe it's just prayers that the Rabbit Room, I think, published.
Speaker: And there's a liturgy or a prayer for changing diapers.
Speaker: And it's really beautiful.
Speaker: And it is devotional and it
Speaker: gives language and like prayer language to something that is so mundane and so can be so difficult.
Speaker: And if somebody hadn't taken the time to think that through and take the initiative and then print it, I mean, I guarantee you like 100,000 people have used that prayer in their frustration.
Speaker: And so I just think it's really important
Speaker: It's easy for me to judge devotional art because I don't tend to connect with a lot of the artistic and creative and aesthetic choices made by Christians.
Speaker: But at the same time, if my mom, you know, listens to a
Speaker: for King and country song, I'm just thinking of a big Christian band and it brings her closer to the Lord.
Speaker: I mean, that's devotional art in my opinion, then they've done something really good.
Speaker: Even if I'm hearing their vocal production and thinking, ah, I kind of wish we had changed up a little guys.
Speaker: It doesn't matter what I think.
Speaker: So the place, the art that brings me closest to God is film.
Speaker: I love watching movies by myself.
Speaker: I've always since becoming a Christian felt like God, like I can watch a movie by myself and I, and I, it becomes a moment of fun and prayer for me.
Speaker: And that can, that can be the most secular of films like James Cameron's aliens.
Speaker: I love that movie so much.
Speaker: What I love about that movie is, well, I love everything about that movie.
Speaker: I love the set design and I can actually go to God and be like, God, isn't that cool?
Speaker: Like think of all the people who spent so much time designing this terrifying space lab.
Speaker: And it sounds, it's devotional for me only because it brings me to God and we get to like connect over creativity and the gifts that he gives other people and the way that God expresses himself through people, whether they realize it or not.
Speaker: Like I love that so much.
Speaker: So even just the definition of devotional art is kind of up in the air for me, but, um,
Speaker: Now I'm getting distracted.
Speaker: I don't even remember what you asked me.
Speaker: That's okay.
Speaker: I just asked about devotional art generally, but no, I, I love that idea too.
Speaker: I, I go crazy about seeing God in quote unquote secular art.
Speaker: Like my brother and I just went and watched the creator, which is a new sci-fi movie.
Speaker: Gareth Edwards did.
Speaker: And I was like, I need to watch it again.
Speaker: Cause it was a little unwieldy.
Speaker: And I'm like, I gotta get my hands around a little more, but yeah,
Speaker: It's just like, man, I feel like there's a lot of like God somewhere in this movie about, I don't know, just the themes of like love that were in it.
Speaker: And there was a lot of like war, like heavy war stuff.
Speaker: But I felt like just the way they approached it, I was like, I don't know.
Speaker: I feel like at least in my soul, I feel like God was doing something.
Speaker: And I feel that so much.
Speaker: But then thinking about like,
Speaker: the grace of God to use people that don't even know they're being used by God.
Speaker: And like...
Speaker: to co-create with people that don't know they're co-creating with God, you know?
Speaker: And yeah.
Speaker: And I love what you said about like the set design, which might be a little bit because I do some set design too, but I love the idea of like, God just sees a beautiful thing and loves it, you know, and loves the care put into it.
Speaker: And like, like in the Bible, the lengthy descriptions of the temple where it's like, why do we need to know exactly what,
Speaker: this little detail of the temple but I'm like dang God just like he set down that beautiful building that was built and like in his word there's such a description of it where if we wanted to we probably could recreate it and part of that was probably because it was important for the Jews but also I'm like what if God just like loved that so much and was like I just want people to remember this because it was beautiful
Speaker: Yeah, that's an interesting way to see it.
Speaker: I feel like God has left his fingerprints like all over creation, right?
Speaker: And God's fingerprints are there's this truth to it.
Speaker: So if you if you dig in the dirt, or you, you study a tree or the solar system, you're gonna see within creation, a lot of truth.
Speaker: And
Speaker: I think similarly in humans and then in the things that we create, there's going to be fingerprints there too.
Speaker: And God is, you know, in this process of like recreating us and recreating this reality, this world that is broken.
Speaker: I like that idea of God partnering with us, even when we don't realize it.
Speaker: And, you know, if, if an architect designs a beautiful home and then, you know, an independent contractor builds that home using all these materials, like they are co-creating with God because God's fingerprints, even in the materials are there.
Speaker: And I think maybe that's why if we have an open mind, we can read a book or watch a movie or,
Speaker: You know, I love Japanese landscape painting is a really good example.
Speaker: I love Japanese landscape painting.
Speaker: And I see God's fingerprints all over that.
Speaker: Even if it was done, you know, with a completely different worldview and even like religious perspective in mind.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: Hey friends, I hope you're enjoying today's episode.
Speaker: I just wanted to take a second to share with you guys the exciting project that's in the works here at Artists of the Way.
Speaker: We're going to be staging a production of Godspell in 2024.
Speaker: Godspell is a musical based on the Gospel of Matthew.
Speaker: The script is comprised mostly of excerpts from the Gospel of Matthew.
Speaker: And the songs are mostly old hymns or straight scripture, which has been recomposed into kind of a rock musical theater style song.
Speaker: It's a wonderful show.
Speaker: I grew up on it.
Speaker: It's been a passion project of mine to direct for five years, and I'm so excited to tackle it.
Speaker: If you want to know more about that, you can visit our website, artistsoftheway.com, and visit our Godspell page.
Speaker: There you'll be able to find show details and information on fundraising if you're interested in helping support the production.
Speaker: If you want to stay up to date with everything regarding Godspell or our podcast, sign up for our email newsletter.
Speaker: We have a newsletter that goes out every two weeks.
Speaker: We'll let you know when new episodes are posted.
Speaker: I'll share some thoughts that I've had over the last couple weeks, and we'll be keeping you guys up to date on everything Godspell related.
Speaker: Thanks.
Speaker: Enjoy the rest of the show.
Speaker: I'm curious how having a child
Speaker: has affected you artistically.
Speaker: Specifically because there's a play that I really want to write about Abraham and Isaac going up the mountain to where Abraham's going to sacrifice Isaac.
Speaker: And I've specifically not written that play because I don't feel like I can get a grasp on it until I have a child.
Speaker: And I've heard in some of your songs, like there's songs that are to your son or about your son or about the experience of now having a son.
Speaker: I'm curious,
Speaker: Like those are obviously an outworking of that, but I guess, are there other ways where you feel like your perspective as a creator has changed now that you have a child?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I care more about what my songs say because I know, or at least I hope someday my children will take the time to listen and think about what I said.
Speaker: They leave a legacy, whether I want it or not.
Speaker: And yeah,
Speaker: It forces me to be a little bit more thoughtful and considerate about what I'm saying and why.
Speaker: And what I create now will reflect them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So it's just added a little bit of depth and thought to what I do.
Speaker: And I really want what I create to be life-giving.
Speaker: That's how...
Speaker: life giving, you know, bringing peace and hopefully bringing people closer to a relationship with their creator and affirming of the beautiful things in the world and, you know, lending language to working through the things that are really difficult.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So yeah, I just think about it a little bit more, what I'm saying and why.
Speaker: I think I was edgier when I was younger and a little bit more careless about what I was saying and why.
Speaker: And I think that's a good intuition you have in regards to waiting until you have a child, if you have a child to write that play out.
Speaker: Although I will say, if you have a kid, you suddenly,
Speaker: have something that you love so much that you've given so much of yourself to, you share DNA.
Speaker: And there is this weight and this sense of surrender because you want to control and protect them.
Speaker: And you wanna see them succeed.
Speaker: You don't wanna see them fail.
Speaker: You don't wanna see them bullied or hurt.
Speaker: You don't wanna see them
Speaker: experience the dark and the pain of this world.
Speaker: And so you realize quickly that you can't protect them like that.
Speaker: And so you have to surrender it to God, which is really what that story of Abraham and Isaac's about.
Speaker: And, you know, I think about foster parents who open up their homes, not knowing whether or not a child's going to stay there for two nights or forever.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I have this like almost endless respect for people who do that well.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think that
Speaker: that's maybe even closer to the heart of Abraham and Isaac than even just having a natural biological child and knowing they're gonna be yours forever because you fall in love with a kid you're fostering and then suddenly they're taken away.
Speaker: So you have to immediately surrender any illusion of control over the situation.
Speaker: And that feels like it's at the heart of that story.
Speaker: I love that you wanna do a production about that.
Speaker: Yeah, it's, well, part of that is, and this will be part of my gospel production too, but like part of like my ministerial heart is like, I feel like everybody at some point in their life has an, at least one, if not many Abraham Isaac moments of, hey, this thing that you love, are you okay if God takes it away?
Speaker: Because that's a big question.
Speaker: And I've had to ask that question about art before.
Speaker: I've had to ask that question about my relationship with my wife before.
Speaker: And I feel like that's a hard question that a lot of times doesn't get asked.
Speaker: And I just want to ask it in that play.
Speaker: And then I sat down to write it.
Speaker: And I was like, boy, I know how to process this question a little bit as an
Speaker: artist and what that experience is like but i have no idea where the like intellectually i know because i've been on the other side of that and i've been like mom you gotta let me spread my wings you know and so i've like walked through that and as i was walking through like the child to parent side of that been like oh at some point i'm gonna have to walk through this as a parent and that's gonna be interesting so like intellectually i've thought about that but emotionally i'm
Speaker: Like, I will still have to walk through that.
Speaker: I'm going to suck at letting go of my child.
Speaker: I just know I am.
Speaker: But I'm like, because the emotionality of that is so important.
Speaker: I'm like, thematically, I feel like I can grasp it.
Speaker: But emotionally, I don't feel like I've walked that through enough, which 17-year-old John would have been like, that doesn't matter.
Speaker: You can make it dramatic.
Speaker: Just write it.
Speaker: But I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker: I feel like I need, I need,
Speaker: something there to really grasp at like the agony that Abraham would have had to walk through.
Speaker: Cause it's, it's not just, I mean, it, it's not just like a vocation.
Speaker: It's every hope and dream that he ever had.
Speaker: And also it's his son, you know, and there's just, I mean, that's, that's one of those stories.
Speaker: That's like, this doesn't make me feel comfortable.
Speaker: This is kind of,
Speaker: Weird, but I feel like it's such a profoundly important story in like the lexicon of being a Christian and scripture.
Speaker: Yeah, I really want to write it.
Speaker: So I want to like give it like the tone of the God of War reboot and well, reboot sequel thing in 2018, where you've got like this gruff guy and this little kid who doesn't really know what's going on.
Speaker: And just walking up that mountain for two hours.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I have no structure yet for it or anything.
Speaker: I just have the vibe.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, I'd go see that play.
Speaker: It can be kind of maybe abused, but the write what you know.
Speaker: Write what you know, it makes sense.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I definitely used to be like the, that's dumb.
Speaker: I don't need to, which was probably because I was 16 and wanted to write a bunch of stuff.
Speaker: It's like, I don't have to wait.
Speaker: I can write it now.
Speaker: But now I'm very much like.
Speaker: Oh, sorry to interrupt.
Speaker: Keep going.
Speaker: Oh, you're good.
Speaker: I was just going to repeat how I'm very much like, no, I need to experience something of it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Have you seen Fablemans, the Spielberg movie?
Speaker: I have not.
Speaker: So I'm a deep film lover.
Speaker: And yet in the last like two years, I've been so bad at going to see.
Speaker: I've had like this list of like movies where I'm like, oh, I have to go.
Speaker: That's an event movie.
Speaker: And Fablemans was one of them that I haven't gotten around to seeing yet.
Speaker: I want to see it really badly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, you should.
Speaker: And it's a pretty intimate movie.
Speaker: And of course, Spielberg writing when he knows.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I appreciate it.
Speaker: I actually, if I had five minutes with Steven Spielberg, I would beg him to do a biblical epic.
Speaker: Oh, man.
Speaker: That would be cool.
Speaker: Like, please do the story of Joseph.
Speaker: Or please do the Ten Commandments.
Speaker: Or I just think something from the Torah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: because of, you know, his Jewish heritage and it just do it as gritty and as real as you can.
Speaker: I just would really like that.
Speaker: Well, in the one time that he kind of had his hands on something with Prince of Egypt, where he was producing in some sense, like, my gosh, what a what an amazing I could gush about that movie all day long.
Speaker: Yeah, so I would love to see that would be so cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Or even the story, the story of David.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: There's so many good stories.
Speaker: David is one where I'm like another one where I'm like right for adaptation so much there in any phase of his life.
Speaker: And we that one hasn't had like a big budget epic or sweeping musical.
Speaker: And I'm like, why?
Speaker: It's just so perfect.
Speaker: He has.
Speaker: Yeah, I could.
Speaker: I think.
Speaker: Probably because it's super complicated.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: It's hard to do.
Speaker: Yeah, that would be a great one to do like a mini series of or multi season series.
Speaker: Yeah, the drama of the Bible is like a whole other topic we could probably talk about for an hour.
Speaker: But yeah, especially David.
Speaker: I love those characters.
Speaker: And Jonathan just breaks my heart.
Speaker: Every time.
Speaker: I'm like, man, that poor guy.
Speaker: He was just trying to be a good friend.
Speaker: And then his dad goes and summons a ghost.
Speaker: And then it's like, oh, well, now your whole family's dead.
Speaker: I'm like, oh, poor Jonathan.
Speaker: Oh, cool.
Speaker: This has been lovely.
Speaker: I'm nearing, we're at about 50 minutes now.
Speaker: So I'm going to ask if there were like some resources or somewhere that you would want to direct people that are wanting to kind of deepen or enrich their lives artistically or spiritually.
Speaker: Are there some like key go-to things where you're like,
Speaker: man, go read this or watch this or do this thing?
Speaker: I think artistically, I would encourage people to just go have more artistic experiences.
Speaker: So I would say, you know, walking through an art museum, going to the local theater,
Speaker: going and seeing a symphony.
Speaker: That's what I would say.
Speaker: Taking a paint by numbers class, it doesn't really matter to me.
Speaker: I just think going and being creative.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, that's not a revolutionary answer, but... But there is, I think a lot of times we're like, oh, I have to like, well, I mean, I definitely have this.
Speaker: We're like, we have to learn about it.
Speaker: But there's definitely art is like a doing thing.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think exposing ourselves to more art and different types of art.
Speaker: know there's a reason that like 80 of the worship music made today all sounds the same and i think it is what it is but the more i think that christian artists discover like different types of art different types of christian art you know digging deeper into the
Speaker: outer edges of Christian art or the history of Christian art, history of the church, history of patronage within the church, all of those things, like learning about it and discovering more art.
Speaker: That's why I suggest an art museum because you realize that especially when in Europe, so much of it was created, you know, for the church, by the church.
Speaker: But I would actually have more to say about enriching a spiritual life.
Speaker: I think,
Speaker: my wife and I and the church where I work, we've been going through this program called Practicing the Way, which is, it kind of was birthed out of Bridgetown Church in Portland, Oregon.
Speaker: And it's basically the creating of a modern rule of life, but it's trying to structure your life
Speaker: So that has spiritual disciplines.
Speaker: The one that we've started with is Sabbath.
Speaker: And for us, it just looks like as a family on a Friday night, having a nice meal and turning off our phones and then trying to get as much rest as we can, like good sleep.
Speaker: And then on Saturday, if we can, um,
Speaker: keeping our phones off and just not working.
Speaker: So just enjoying a hike or gardening, not checking emails, not checking social media.
Speaker: Yeah, eating good food, going somewhere beautiful, watching a movie, reading a book, taking a nap, baking cookies, just really living into these good things that God has given us and surrendering our work to him.
Speaker: I think it's doing wonders for us.
Speaker: And I would say that it probably has really, will help, has helped my creative output and my artistic output and helps me feel closer to the Lord.
Speaker: It feels like there's more peace in our home.
Speaker: So I don't know if I would say practicing the way specifically is the one you should do, but reading like Richard J. Foster's Celebration of Discipline,
Speaker: Just reading about prayer, Sabbath, fasting, solitude, silence, community, and trying to say no more than you say yes so your weekly rhythm just has a little bit more space.
Speaker: That to me feels revolutionary right now in our current society.
Speaker: And I need it.
Speaker: I long for it.
Speaker: I'm desperate for
Speaker: I'm desperate to be away from my phones specifically.
Speaker: So I feel that I feel like God has, God's done that in my own life as well.
Speaker: And right now I'm definitely worse at my like Sabbath rhythm and stuff.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: But I feel like artists have the tendency of like, we've always got to be creating and making and doing something.
Speaker: And if we're not doing something, then, you know, and I know, especially like in theater, people are like, I auditioned for this show here and then it closes here.
Speaker: So I'm going to audition for this show at this point.
Speaker: So then I'll be jumping right into rehearsals and like, it's a constant go, go, go, which I think is also a reflection of our time.
Speaker: But yeah, that space to rest and just like enjoy everything.
Speaker: God's world like, ah, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker: It's so good.
Speaker: Um, I've just had this ache to simplify my life and I don't know if it's cause I'm getting older, but I've also just been growing.
Speaker: I have a, um,
Speaker: a growing distaste for popular philosophy and popular wisdom.
Speaker: And I just, I'm craving something richer and more rooted and smaller and less ambitious and more focused on my family and my neighbors and the people that God is bringing into my orbit here.
Speaker: And, um, yeah.
Speaker: I think that's what I would say, especially to creatives, because if you're anything like me, like I could lay awake and write a song in my head.
Speaker: And it used to be that that's what I did.
Speaker: I barely slept and I was, I obsessed over what I was making.
Speaker: And that can be a superpower at certain moments.
Speaker: Really.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: but it just may be an unhealthy one a very self-focused one and um it's not a good rhythm it's not and um i think our productivity goes up when we say yes to fewer things which sounds counterintuitive um
Speaker: But I think our brains and our bodies weren't made to do so much.
Speaker: I don't think our brains were made to maintain so many relationships online or to receive so much information.
Speaker: I think there's so much pollution in our world, specifically information pollution and noise pollution and light pollution, screens.
Speaker: And I just think God created us.
Speaker: I was going to say it sounds hippie, but it's not.
Speaker: I think God created us to be living simpler lives, closer lives, getting in our car less, being on our phone less.
Speaker: I could talk about that for a long time.
Speaker: Yeah, same.
Speaker: I mean, like I have Spider-Man 2 now, that new Spider-Man game, and I'm loving it.
Speaker: But as vast and like incredible of a video game as that is, like it does not compare at all to just going out on my porch on a fall day with my wife and we're sitting and we're eating good food and you hear birds and you smell that fall breeze like...
Speaker: like you can tell that's what God made us for 100%.
Speaker: Yeah, that's wonderful.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Well, maybe a good Sabbath practice would be is it PlayStation?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Maybe a good Sabbath practice would be
Speaker: like putting the PlayStation in a closet from like Friday night all through Saturday.
Speaker: Cause you know, you're going to want to play Spider-Man too.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: And this week already, I was like, I was like, boy, I think I'm starting to not sleep quite as well.
Speaker: Cause I think I'm staying up a little late.
Speaker: So I was like, okay, I really need to this weekend put away Spider-Man too.
Speaker: which I haven't done successfully because my brother came over and was like, you could play Spider-Man two for 15 minutes while we wait.
Speaker: And I could watch the web swinging.
Speaker: And I was like, I could, so I've already not done well with that, but yeah.
Speaker: And I think that discipline and self-control is good for an artist.
Speaker: Anyways.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We could, we could, we could go on and on and on about this.
Speaker: Um, but we're, yeah, we're at an hour.
Speaker: So thank you.
Speaker: Thank you for coming on.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I really appreciate it.
Speaker: I, um,
Speaker: love talking about these things it's good it's important so i appreciate it i look forward to someday seeing godspell yeah that would be great i'm i'm doing it next year so if you i could give you a free ticket um i just got to find my way to west uh michigan to west michigan to a big i love michigan with a newborn it's so beautiful do you remember the soil the soil and the sun yes the band yeah so
Speaker: I, uh, that's an example of a Michigan band that I loved playing with whenever we'd come through.
Speaker: And when I was just, sorry, last thing I'll say is I was just become a Christian and we played, I don't know if it was Ann Arbor or Grand Rapids, but it's at the pyramid room.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: There was this name of a venue and we played with them and they were so much better than we were.
Speaker: Was it a, was it a smaller venue?
Speaker: Yeah, maybe like we have like a pyramid scheme is a small one.
Speaker: Yeah, that's here in GR.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And they were so good and so nice.
Speaker: And they invited us over for pancakes the next morning.
Speaker: We went over to this house and they made us pancakes and I found out they were Christians, like a good number of them.
Speaker: And it was so encouraging to me because I didn't really, I never was around Christians on tour.
Speaker: Anyways, good Michigan memory there to end this podcast interview.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Awesome.
