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Songwriting and Devotional Art with John Van Deusen
31 Plays2 years ago
In this episode Jon speaks with singer-songwriter John Van Deusen. They discuss John's songwriting, how his faith intersects with his music, the importance devotional art, and more!
John Van Deusen is a singer-songwriter who seeks to holistically examine the human heart, starting with his own. His music shifts between quiet acoustic sounds, pop influences, and his classic indie rock style. John Van Deusen currently resides in his hometown of Anacortes with his wife and son. You can find his music on Apple Music, Spotify, or visit John Van Deusen's Bandcamp.
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Find out more about Godspell: https://www.artistsoftheway.com/godspell.html
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Transcript
Expressing Emotions Through Art
00:00:00
Speaker
In general, most of us, at least in some arenas, struggle to find vocabulary.
00:00:06
Speaker
And we struggle to know how to put into words what we're feeling.
00:00:09
Speaker
And so good devotional art or devotion in general, I've always found it just speaks plainly, poetically maybe, but just it says something that I've been thinking and feeling, but I haven't been able to know.
00:00:24
Speaker
I don't know how to put it into words.
Introducing John Van Dusen
00:00:27
Speaker
Hello, everybody.
00:00:28
Speaker
Welcome back to Artists of the Way.
00:00:29
Speaker
I'm John, the host.
00:00:30
Speaker
Today, I'm joined by John Van Dusen, who is a singer-songwriter that I've discovered this year.
00:00:38
Speaker
I started listening to a lot of his stuff as I was kind of starting to plan for this podcast and doing a lot of Hamlet.
00:00:44
Speaker
And Hamlet's angsty, and some of his stuff was angsty, so it just kind of...
00:00:47
Speaker
Fit together well.
00:00:50
Speaker
But John is based out of Anacordas, Washington.
00:00:53
Speaker
He was the songwriter and frontman for The Lonely Forest, which was kind of like an indie rock alternative band in the 2000s and 2010s.
00:01:04
Speaker
And now, after a hiatus, has kind of been doing his own...
00:01:09
Speaker
Indie music.
00:01:10
Speaker
It's kind of a, I have a hard time like explaining to people what your music sounds like.
00:01:14
Speaker
Cause it's kind of all over the place and eclectic, but I, I really liked that.
00:01:18
Speaker
Um, but a lot of, a lot of rich lyrics.
00:01:22
Speaker
So if, if me inviting him on the podcast, wasn't enough of a recommendation for you guys to listen to his music, then here's my official recommendation.
00:01:29
Speaker
Go listen to his music.
00:01:31
Speaker
Um, yeah.
00:01:32
Speaker
How are you doing, John?
Life in Anacortes
00:01:34
Speaker
I'm good.
00:01:35
Speaker
Hello.
00:01:35
Speaker
Hello, everybody.
00:01:40
Speaker
Sweet.
00:01:41
Speaker
So yeah, you're based out of Anacortes.
00:01:46
Speaker
You have one kid and have another one on the way.
00:01:50
Speaker
Is that right?
00:01:51
Speaker
Yes, so my wife and I, we live here in Anacortes with our son, who will turn four January 1st, and we have a little girl due anytime.
00:02:05
Speaker
So it could be tomorrow, could be in a couple weeks.
00:02:10
Speaker
I'm actually sitting in her bedroom right now, so.
00:02:13
Speaker
We are preparing for that massive shift in our environment and our dynamic, but we're excited.
00:02:22
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:02:23
Speaker
Yeah, how about you?
00:02:24
Speaker
That's super cool.
00:02:26
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm married.
00:02:27
Speaker
I've got my wife, Shay.
00:02:29
Speaker
We're based in Grand Rapids, Michigan, so...
00:02:33
Speaker
Our big art things that we do that kind of take up our life is I do a lot of theater.
00:02:40
Speaker
So mostly acting and directing.
00:02:43
Speaker
I have a production I'm trying to get going in connection to the podcast, which is fun and also terrifying because I'm doing the creative side and the business side, and it's that artistic production.
00:02:57
Speaker
push pull of that.
00:02:59
Speaker
And then my wife writes a lot of poetry is kind of her thing.
00:03:04
Speaker
Great.
00:03:04
Speaker
Which is super cool.
Godspell and Musical Impact
00:03:07
Speaker
You know, I was in Godspell.
00:03:09
Speaker
And actually, that was
00:03:12
Speaker
how I met my good friend, Braden Krueger, who ended up playing drums in the lonely forest.
00:03:16
Speaker
He was cast as, he was Jesus.
00:03:18
Speaker
And I was the John the Baptist slash Judas character.
00:03:22
Speaker
So that's how, that's how him and I, um, that's how he and I connected.
00:03:27
Speaker
And I really enjoyed doing that production.
00:03:32
Speaker
It was very difficult for me because
00:03:36
Speaker
singing and dancing simultaneously was, it was a new level of focus and rehearsal.
00:03:43
Speaker
I had never experienced that.
00:03:45
Speaker
Now I was also a 10th grader.
00:03:48
Speaker
So who knows what it would be like now, but.
00:03:50
Speaker
Well, I'm still not adept at that.
00:03:53
Speaker
Oh, I love that music.
00:03:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:54
Speaker
I've, that's the one I'm trying to put on and I've wanted to do that for like,
00:03:59
Speaker
five years.
00:04:00
Speaker
My brother and I grew up on it because my mom is low-key kind of a hippie, like Jesus music type person.
00:04:06
Speaker
So like that original cast recording from the 70s that's very hippie.
00:04:12
Speaker
That's just like her vibe.
00:04:14
Speaker
She loves that.
00:04:15
Speaker
And so she just kind of passed that on to my brother and I. So I like... I'm like... I could probably talk about that for a whole hour.
00:04:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:26
Speaker
I don't know about it, but I just...
00:04:29
Speaker
I brought it up because when I was looking at your website, I saw that.
00:04:31
Speaker
I saw the Godspell page, and so I thought I'd share that I got to be a part of it.
00:04:38
Speaker
But I love how simple it is.
00:04:40
Speaker
And I found that even with the really simple set pieces and a lot of it being pantomime, it translates so well.
00:04:51
Speaker
And the music's obviously very good.
00:04:55
Speaker
You know the scene at the end where...
00:04:58
Speaker
Christ is tied to the electric fence.
00:05:01
Speaker
Well, in our version, our production, that song, that kind of like epic song that's playing during the crucifixion, I played a guitar solo.
00:05:12
Speaker
So as a sophomore in high school, like I went over and put on this Gibson SG and played the guitar solo as Christ is experiencing the crucifixion.
00:05:21
Speaker
And it's just, it's strangely profound
00:05:26
Speaker
It's a strangely profound work of art, especially for a high school to put on.
00:05:30
Speaker
So anyways, good memories.
Chaplaincy Aspirations
00:05:33
Speaker
I also saw you're going to be like back to talk about music, but I saw that you were one day hoping to become a chaplain, which I thought was interesting.
00:05:41
Speaker
My dad is a police and fire chaplain.
00:05:44
Speaker
Oh, nice.
00:05:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:46
Speaker
So that's, that's cool.
00:05:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:48
Speaker
He was, uh, he worked in, has worked in ministry my entire life and he went from being a pastor of a local church to retiring there and then stepping into, um, chaplaincy.
00:05:58
Speaker
So that's kind of his focus here in our, our small little town.
00:06:03
Speaker
And I have a lot of respect for chaplains subsequently because what I've seen my dad do so.
00:06:09
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:06:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's awesome.
00:06:11
Speaker
I love the, and I mean, this is a lot of what I love in the arts too, as like a director.
00:06:16
Speaker
And when I get to, to work with people and talk to people as I'm like shaping something, like I love just being able to meet people where they are at and like, just be like, let's just navigate this together and have somebody by your side.
00:06:28
Speaker
And then maybe I can ask a question that, that helps you kind of connect again with, with God or get some wheels turning or something.
00:06:38
Speaker
Um,
00:06:40
Speaker
Yeah, I love chaplaincy.
00:06:42
Speaker
I know a couple and I love just that like, I mean, I feel like it's a very Christ-like idea of like, let's just sit in the pain with the person and let's just exist because the hard things in life are there.
00:06:55
Speaker
So yeah, I think it would be.
00:06:59
Speaker
Really cool.
00:06:59
Speaker
And I've always had, that's part of why I'm doing this podcast.
00:07:02
Speaker
I've always had this sort of call to ministry.
00:07:06
Speaker
And, and it's, it's always been this challenge of how do I do both?
00:07:09
Speaker
Cause he definitely made me to create and be an artist.
00:07:12
Speaker
And then also, yeah.
00:07:14
Speaker
very clearly every time that I pray about it, he's like, hey, do a ministry thing in some sense.
00:07:20
Speaker
And chaplaincy, I've felt as I've navigated that seems like it's kind of a good, for me at least, like a good middle ground where a church could be almost as a pastor all-consuming, like that's your life, you know.
00:07:32
Speaker
But chaplaincy, like I can go in and I can do it and I can really pour in in that time.
00:07:38
Speaker
But it also kind of protects me a little bit in like when I'm on the clock, I'm on the clock and
00:07:43
Speaker
I'm off the clock, I can do the other areas vocationally that God's kind of called me
Directing and Chaplaincy
00:07:49
Speaker
to.
00:07:49
Speaker
So yeah, well, and you can also use the tools that you've gained and learned the wisdom you've gleaned, like training to become a chaplain in the, in your world as a director.
00:08:03
Speaker
Actually, I have a friend named Nigel Goodwin who lives in England and he
00:08:09
Speaker
he had a home with his spouse in the West End and was heavily involved in theater and was actually a BBC actor in certain moments.
00:08:19
Speaker
He's like 82 maybe.
00:08:22
Speaker
But listening to him tell stories about their home in the West End in the like,
00:08:30
Speaker
I wanna say the 60s and 70s, it was essentially an open door.
00:08:35
Speaker
And of course a ministry, now they wouldn't have said that to all of their fellow actors, but it was just at all times, there were people in and out of productions that would just come and be at their house.
00:08:46
Speaker
And I mean, it's kind of a no brainer, but obviously the core, the essence of chaplaincy can be utilized wherever you are.
00:08:57
Speaker
I mean,
00:08:59
Speaker
A good director helps the person, the actor feel safe and comfortable with themselves, right?
00:09:05
Speaker
Yep.
00:09:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:06
Speaker
And I mean, yeah, there's, I think it was Walt Williams, who was one of my, like, he like got me started in being able to explore directing.
00:09:18
Speaker
And he learned a lot from the founder of Master Arts Theater, which is the community theater I do a lot of stuff at, but he was like,
00:09:25
Speaker
A lot of times a director is not just a director.
00:09:27
Speaker
They're also a producer and they're also a counselor.
00:09:29
Speaker
Because especially if you have heavy roles, and like I know I've done this to other directors where I've had a heavy role.
00:09:37
Speaker
Like I played Mr. Banks in Mary Poppins when I was 17 and my parents were divorced.
00:09:42
Speaker
And that's like a story of a family that's like heading that way that then doesn't.
00:09:46
Speaker
And I'm like, wow, that poor director that had a kid didn't.
00:09:49
Speaker
dealing with like years of his own parents divorce and was like, I just wanted to do Mary Poppins.
00:09:55
Speaker
It's like working through all his life past trauma.
00:09:59
Speaker
But there's, there's a lot of realness to that.
00:10:03
Speaker
I, I don't know if it's,
00:10:06
Speaker
God's sovereignty or if it's the stories that draw, like actors are drawn to stories that match their experiences or probably a mix of those.
00:10:15
Speaker
But a lot of times, I think even just in art in general, what we end up working on is something that in that moment resonates with either what we're walking through now or what we have walked through and need to deal with now.
00:10:32
Speaker
Um,
00:10:33
Speaker
Even when it's yeah, hopefully if it's done well, sometimes it's just me, but yeah.
00:10:40
Speaker
I mean, I think so.
00:10:42
Speaker
I recently started writing songs as a part of my job and signing a publishing deal
Challenges of Worship Songwriting
00:10:50
Speaker
and writing songs.
00:10:50
Speaker
You kind of have, you have a quota, right?
00:10:52
Speaker
I have to, I have to deliver so many songs and especially within the Christian space, I think,
00:10:59
Speaker
there is a danger where you're just manufacturing something in hopes that someone else would want to sing it and then that it would go well financially.
00:11:12
Speaker
And so I do think when I say, hopefully I just mean, it is really easy to kind of find a rhythm.
00:11:22
Speaker
Rhythm is actually probably too healthy of a word.
00:11:27
Speaker
A, what's the term?
00:11:29
Speaker
A formula.
00:11:29
Speaker
Like pattern or habit.
00:11:31
Speaker
Yeah, a formula.
00:11:32
Speaker
And like, okay, this is what works.
00:11:35
Speaker
And it may not even reflect where I'm at personally or what I'm truly thinking about in regards to my relationship with God.
00:11:43
Speaker
I'm just going to kind of write what I think works and then hope that it connects.
00:11:48
Speaker
Obviously, God can use that however God wants.
00:11:49
Speaker
Right.
00:11:51
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think even on like an organizational level, like...
00:11:58
Speaker
Again, being on the board at Master Arts and I help kind of pick the plays and things like that.
00:12:04
Speaker
So there's a lot of times where we're like, man, we have some really rich, artistically meaty scripts that we'd love our actors to be able to tackle and we think are important shows to share with our audience.
00:12:14
Speaker
And then we look at our bottom line and we're like, hmm...
00:12:17
Speaker
maybe we should do Little House on the Prairie again, or Sound of Music, or Wind Calls the Heart, which is like a Canadian romance thing that is kind of as deep as a kiddie pool.
00:12:32
Speaker
So it's like... And there's definitely, you know, there needs to be provision as well.
00:12:38
Speaker
So sometimes there's... And our audience loves those.
00:12:40
Speaker
So it provides something.
00:12:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:44
Speaker
But...
00:12:46
Speaker
I recently went and watched the Anacortes High School do Mean Girls and you know, I kind of knew somewhat what I was getting myself into based upon the film, which I think is pretty funny.
00:13:00
Speaker
It was a very funny play, pretty risky for high school, although Anacortes High School has a history of just pushing the edges and limits, I think, in the theater department in a really good way.
00:13:11
Speaker
But I also teared up a good handful of times in this Mean Girls production because they, even though it's kind of packaged in this dramedy comedy format,
00:13:28
Speaker
it still strikes at the core of what we all struggle with, which is trying to fit in and belong, figure out who we are, whether or not we're worthy of love.
00:13:39
Speaker
And I say that basically as an example, it would be easy to pass Mean Girls off as trite, but the truth is it's not.
00:13:46
Speaker
And actually when it's done well, I think especially every young woman in that audience or just woman in general, I think felt that because there's this immense pressure, especially put on high school girls to just be
00:13:59
Speaker
oftentimes something they don't want to be or can never be.
00:14:03
Speaker
And so anyways, I think even with the sound of music, like you said, like, oh, man, I'd rather put on, you know, name a deeper or more thoughtful play.
00:14:12
Speaker
But I mean, gosh, I tear up any time someone sings Edelweiss to me.
00:14:17
Speaker
It doesn't matter.
00:14:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:19
Speaker
It's beautiful.
00:14:21
Speaker
So should we talk about, should we talk about India rock?
00:14:24
Speaker
I don't know.
00:14:25
Speaker
Yes, let's.
00:14:26
Speaker
I would talk about, I would talk about theater and these things all the time, Christian film, directing screen, screenplays.
00:14:33
Speaker
I love it all.
00:14:33
Speaker
So I, I'll gladly talk about anything, but I, I, you know, I don't want to hijack the podcast.
00:14:40
Speaker
Yes.
00:14:40
Speaker
We'll, we'll talk again and then you can interview me about theater and I'll.
00:14:45
Speaker
Perfect.
00:14:45
Speaker
We'll go on all the experiences.
00:14:48
Speaker
So I'm curious, first of all, what are some artistic projects that you're working on right now?
00:14:53
Speaker
You mentioned that you're kind of doing it as songwriting as a job now.
00:14:56
Speaker
So that's definitely one piece of that.
00:15:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:00
Speaker
So I write songs now as a part of a publishing company.
00:15:06
Speaker
These songs specifically are corporate worship and hymns, which is something I've always wanted to do.
00:15:11
Speaker
And there is a forever...
00:15:13
Speaker
there is forever a tension within that art because almost on a daily basis, I have to come before God and say, look, I want to do this for the right reasons.
00:15:24
Speaker
I would love to write the next In Christ Alone or How Deep the Father's Love for Us, or I would love to write the next.
00:15:33
Speaker
goodness of God, a song that people are going to sing all over the world, because what an honor to be a part of that.
00:15:38
Speaker
I would also really love for that to pay for my child's school if he ever wanted to go.
00:15:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:43
Speaker
And that's, that is a realistic tension that I live with every day.
00:15:47
Speaker
And it feels even more dramatic because I'm specifically hired to write songs for the church.
00:15:57
Speaker
it would be different if I was writing songs for Katy Perry or Kesha, which I would love to do, but I'm not.
00:16:04
Speaker
So I do that.
00:16:07
Speaker
My solo music is kind of forever changing, but as I get older and as I grow closer to the Lord, as my Christian faith, my love of Jesus becomes increasingly central to who I am,
00:16:25
Speaker
I think it focuses me a bit
Crafting Coherent Albums
00:16:29
Speaker
more.
00:16:29
Speaker
And so the big project that's on my mind right now is my next solo record, which will be, for lack of a better term, an alternative worship record.
00:16:41
Speaker
And a lot of those songs are structured in a way that, I mean, they're meant to be sung by a corporate group of people, like in a church or wherever.
00:16:57
Speaker
So that's kind of what's on my mind right now.
00:17:01
Speaker
There's lots of songs to choose from.
00:17:02
Speaker
I have a working title and I, I obsessed over these projects.
00:17:07
Speaker
And I think of all my projects in terms of albums, I can't divorce myself from that structure, probably because of when I grew up.
00:17:22
Speaker
You know, I was starting to make music in the early 2000s and the Internet hadn't quite taken over.
00:17:30
Speaker
And.
00:17:32
Speaker
You know, we weren't thinking of algorithms, we were still just making trying to make the best album we could.
00:17:37
Speaker
And so I'm still stuck there.
00:17:38
Speaker
And I think in a way I'll probably always be there.
00:17:41
Speaker
Well, I think part of that, too, I think I talked about this on the last episode, but I think either the last one or the one before that I love.
00:17:49
Speaker
I'm very much a product of the internet.
00:17:51
Speaker
You know, I was late nineties born and raised, so I've like,
00:17:56
Speaker
I kind of seen the transition, but most of my life's been like that Spotify, you can pick whatever song you want.
00:18:02
Speaker
But I love sitting down and like your second album, Every Power Wide Awake is one of the ones I love to sit down and do this with of just listen through the whole album and see, like, I love that there's individual pieces of art in it that like, if I want to, I can listen to one of those songs, but at the same time, like the artist, like,
00:18:23
Speaker
And then God, through the art, puts it all together into a whole, which is probably my theater-loving side that's like, let's see the whole show come together.
00:18:32
Speaker
But I think you do that really well.
00:18:34
Speaker
I love that that's a lot of times the structure of those albums is it's one kind of big ebbing and flowing piece.
00:18:41
Speaker
Thank you.
00:18:42
Speaker
Thank you.
00:18:44
Speaker
Yeah, that's really important to me.
00:18:46
Speaker
And that means a lot to me that you'd say it because I think about it.
00:18:50
Speaker
I think about track order, how songs flow together, songs being related to one another.
00:18:59
Speaker
I think of them as siblings or spouses or cousins.
00:19:04
Speaker
A lot of family imagery comes to mind.
00:19:07
Speaker
Like the first song should be related to the last song.
00:19:10
Speaker
And I...
00:19:14
Speaker
I have other projects I'm working on.
00:19:18
Speaker
I have a, I can't go into too much detail, but I'm, I have another record to release with Tooth and Nail, which is one of the record labels I've been on.
00:19:28
Speaker
And the record that they licensed from me, I really love and it's finished.
00:19:36
Speaker
Right now I'm struggling to decide whether or not I really want to release it because it reflects who I used to be very heavily.
00:19:44
Speaker
Songs I wrote 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 years ago.
00:19:48
Speaker
And they kind of exude this chaos and this anarchy and this tension because they all came from a place of depression and anxiety, a time in which I was really...
00:20:05
Speaker
hectic.
00:20:06
Speaker
And when I listen to it now, it just kind of bums me out.
00:20:11
Speaker
So...
00:20:13
Speaker
So I've actually been talking with them.
00:20:14
Speaker
I mean, this is more information than I probably should be giving, but anyways, they've been working with me to kind of figure that out, like, cause they're really generous and kind and, you know, level-headed people.
00:20:25
Speaker
And so they've been walking me through this process.
00:20:27
Speaker
Like, if do you want to release this?
00:20:29
Speaker
And if not, what can we release instead?
00:20:30
Speaker
So I've been kind of thinking that through, like, do I want to release that record or can I release something different that reflects who I am now?
00:20:37
Speaker
I'm in a band called- That's an interesting conflict.
00:20:43
Speaker
It is.
00:20:44
Speaker
It is an interesting conflict and one I didn't expect.
00:20:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:48
Speaker
So I've got a lot of projects I'm working on.
00:20:51
Speaker
I am always working on projects.
00:20:53
Speaker
I have a, there's an artist friend of mine named Jeff Johnson.
00:20:58
Speaker
He was on Sparrow Records in the 80s.
00:21:02
Speaker
And, um,
00:21:04
Speaker
Like he's been around a long time.
00:21:05
Speaker
He makes new age music.
00:21:06
Speaker
And so him and I did this kind of low key for fun new age project.
00:21:11
Speaker
Now, when I say new age, I don't mean like spiritual new age.
00:21:13
Speaker
I mean like new age, um, ambient or classical, whatever you want to call it.
00:21:18
Speaker
And that will come out in February.
00:21:20
Speaker
It's like one long song.
00:21:22
Speaker
And it's just this, it's just, it kind of like he, he would do a, a four minute movement and I would do one to in response.
00:21:30
Speaker
His sound a little bit more.
00:21:32
Speaker
new agey than mine even they're more like inya um i i'm not very versed in the new age genre but anyways so that's coming out but otherwise i'm mostly focused on my alt worship record which yeah i want my goal is always to make something that's never been made now i might fail miserably at that goal i don't think i'll film miserably i might fail but
00:21:59
Speaker
That's my goal.
00:22:00
Speaker
My goal is for someone to put in the record and think I've never heard anything quite like it.
00:22:04
Speaker
And usually when I think that way, I'm thinking of as a whole, like you said, like listening to every power wide awake from start to finish.
00:22:14
Speaker
My hope is that the next one feels
00:22:18
Speaker
unusual and new and I don't know.
00:22:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:21
Speaker
What are some alike, what's, I don't know how I'm phrasing this question.
00:22:26
Speaker
I started before all the words were there.
00:22:28
Speaker
I don't know, like the difference of writing with the goal of having other people sing your music in mind versus writing just to create the piece
Corporate vs. Personal Songwriting
00:22:40
Speaker
like that.
00:22:40
Speaker
That's something that interests me about like him work and, and, and something like that where it's more worship and you,
00:22:47
Speaker
want people to be able to join in with it?
00:22:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:52
Speaker
It's a good question.
00:22:52
Speaker
Really, it's just a change of perspective.
00:22:55
Speaker
Lyrically, it just means that I try to use corporate language.
00:23:00
Speaker
Now, I personal devotional, like devotional art is really important to me.
00:23:04
Speaker
So there will be plenty of devotional art on this record.
00:23:07
Speaker
It just means that there will be more, it'll be more populated with songs that are, you know,
00:23:18
Speaker
I don't know how else to say it, but just like a group of people coming before the Lord, singing a prayer, asking for God to do something in us.
00:23:25
Speaker
You know, may your will be done in us, not necessarily may your will be done in me.
00:23:29
Speaker
But it also means that I have to consider a song's ability to connect with a wider audience.
00:23:40
Speaker
And usually in my case, that means aesthetics and production.
00:23:43
Speaker
So my tendency is to push the limits
00:23:47
Speaker
to take risks, to make everything a little edgy.
00:23:51
Speaker
And so in this case, I want plenty of that on the record, but I also need moments where, without betraying my own tastes, there are a few songs where my mom,
00:24:06
Speaker
and your mother-in-law could hopefully, I'm just throwing out names, like people of different tastes and ages could hear it.
00:24:15
Speaker
And if their church going to think, oh, I connect with this, this is beautiful, this is lovely.
00:24:19
Speaker
So I just have to be more aware with what I'm doing.
00:24:22
Speaker
And I will say that when people
00:24:28
Speaker
I work with, like on my team or my label, ask me to dole the edges or to make things not as sharp or as edgy.
00:24:37
Speaker
It does the opposite in me.
00:24:39
Speaker
It makes me want to start my worship record with four minutes of distortion for real.
00:24:45
Speaker
And so I don't know if God has made me this way for a reason.
00:24:48
Speaker
If it's, there's probably some good, probably some good and probably some not so good in that in me, but I really like to push back on
00:24:58
Speaker
people who want me to play nice.
00:25:03
Speaker
So that's a tension I have right now going, going into this record.
00:25:07
Speaker
Yeah, I get that.
00:25:09
Speaker
I feel talking about my project Godspell.
00:25:12
Speaker
I even feel that a little bit with that.
00:25:13
Speaker
Cause I, part of my vision,
00:25:15
Speaker
has been to really set it in our culture today.
00:25:19
Speaker
And I really want this idea of, if Christ came today, how would he be completely different from everything that everybody actually wanted him to be, and how would he not map onto any of our preconceived tracks that we can put people on culturally?
00:25:36
Speaker
And so I know especially...
00:25:38
Speaker
Early on as I've been working on it, like I got really in the, oh, I'm going to, we can have this little moment that like confronts this thing and this thing confront that thing.
00:25:47
Speaker
And I like got really big into like that, that edginess of it and like that,
00:25:52
Speaker
like a contrarian for Christ kind of
Art's Role in Personal Growth
00:25:56
Speaker
thing.
00:25:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:57
Speaker
Where it's like somebody says one thing and I'm like, that doesn't quite map to what Christ said, so I'm going to say the thing that maybe you need to think about on this side, but then somebody from this side might say something and I'm like, well, wait, there's also this angle.
00:26:10
Speaker
And I do feel like there's a good and a bad of that.
00:26:13
Speaker
Some of that can be almost a prophetic thing of like, if something makes you uncomfortable to get you back to Christ...
00:26:21
Speaker
Like that might be a, you might need to kind of be shaken out of that comfortability a little bit, which is definitely my tendency too, of like, let's, let's get uncomfortable.
00:26:30
Speaker
Cause a lot of times when you're uncomfortable is where God wants to work on you.
00:26:35
Speaker
This, these were creepy hands.
00:26:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:38
Speaker
God's a weird massage therapist.
00:26:42
Speaker
I'm going to work on you.
00:26:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:47
Speaker
I know.
00:26:48
Speaker
I, I think that as long as we,
00:26:51
Speaker
we do that with humility and grace.
00:26:53
Speaker
And I often think that one of the good things for us to do is to turn, turn it on ourselves and to make sure we're not presenting this, um, like putting ourselves on some weird pedestal of hierarchy or, um, I like, like when, when someone in a pastoral position is willing to be vulnerable and say, this is,
00:27:19
Speaker
This is a hard truth and I also struggle with this hard truth.
00:27:24
Speaker
It endears us to them and it immediately helps us feel like we're on the same page and we can relate.
00:27:31
Speaker
So I think, but it is difficult because in our current culture, there's a tendency within art to always be messaging.
00:27:38
Speaker
It's like every situation is a potential messaging moment.
00:27:46
Speaker
And I will say that even in like modern TV and film, sometimes I just roll my eyes because it feels like every scene is trying to get something across.
00:27:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:56
Speaker
And I, like, I think about this way sometimes when, so like I love, for example, I love, um,
00:28:04
Speaker
for lack of a better term, I love girl power movies and situations.
00:28:08
Speaker
I love it when I see a woman character kick a lot of butt.
00:28:14
Speaker
It makes me really happy.
00:28:16
Speaker
And I'm about to have a daughter, and so I think about that.
00:28:19
Speaker
And sometimes certain films and TV and drama does that so effortlessly.
00:28:27
Speaker
that I just think it just gets you.
00:28:30
Speaker
And sometimes you can tell they're trying to manufacture that in a way that feels insincere and it doesn't get me.
00:28:36
Speaker
And I don't know, we could probably spend a lot of time dissecting that, but-
00:28:41
Speaker
Well, I feel like that almost goes back to what you're talking about with that Mean Girls production.
00:28:45
Speaker
Like the heart behind it and how much you're caring to try and actually get to like the real, the realness of the story and the truth of it as opposed to, oh, I want to make sure I platform this, you know, or that we have this moment because it's important instead of because it's like real, you know?
00:29:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:07
Speaker
Not that it isn't important, not that you shouldn't, but...
00:29:11
Speaker
I think, especially I think Christian artists have historically struggled with this of like, okay, how do we get to the realness of the art underneath as opposed to just saying the formula or saying the right things?
00:29:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:29
Speaker
You mentioned devotional art, and I vibe with that hardcore.
00:29:34
Speaker
I feel like.
00:29:37
Speaker
looking back in my life, like I can see the big movements of ways God's worked in me in my life are a lot of times mapped to the show I've been in and the art I've been working on.
00:29:46
Speaker
Um, are there ways that you feel like, I don't know, I guess what to you is important about using art as a sort of devotion?
00:29:57
Speaker
Um, and are there any like really memorable moments with that, that, um,
00:30:03
Speaker
I don't know, you feel like you're willing to share like, oh, this was a good time that that was used.
00:30:09
Speaker
Well, some people have a gift of... Did you hear my kid yelling?
00:30:18
Speaker
I did.
00:30:19
Speaker
Mom, where are you?
00:30:22
Speaker
It's actually a miracle he hasn't come in and tried to close the computer.
00:30:27
Speaker
Praise God for that.
00:30:29
Speaker
I think some people are gifted communicators and they have an ability to say whether through words or music or visual art.
00:30:44
Speaker
They have a way of communicating things that are easy to grab ahold of, easy to understand.
00:30:52
Speaker
And I think the general
00:30:55
Speaker
in general, most of us, at least in some arenas, struggle to find vocabulary.
00:31:00
Speaker
And we struggle to know how to put into words what we're feeling.
00:31:04
Speaker
And so good devotional art or devotion in general, I've always found it just speaks plainly, poetically maybe, but just it says something that I've been thinking and feeling, but I haven't been able to know, I don't know how to put it into words.
00:31:21
Speaker
And so
00:31:25
Speaker
when it comes to music, songs and records that give people vocabulary and almost like a guided prayer, like lead them closer to God and says things that they've been wanting to say, but didn't know how, that's super important to me.
00:31:44
Speaker
And
00:31:46
Speaker
Sometimes we don't know it's okay to say certain things to God or pray certain things or even think certain thoughts.
00:31:52
Speaker
And devotional art can do that for us, can be really courageous and take a risk.
00:31:56
Speaker
And then people kind of gravitate towards that and realize like, oh, it is okay for me to be angry at God right now.
00:32:06
Speaker
God's not afraid of my anger.
00:32:08
Speaker
So if a devotion speaks to that, it's really helpful.
00:32:13
Speaker
I think of Every Moment Holy, the book of prayer and liturgy, or maybe it's just prayers that the Rabbit Room, I think, published.
00:32:23
Speaker
And there's a liturgy or a prayer for changing diapers.
00:32:30
Speaker
And it's really beautiful.
00:32:33
Speaker
And it is devotional and it
00:32:39
Speaker
gives language and like prayer language to something that is so mundane and so can be so difficult.
00:32:48
Speaker
And if somebody hadn't taken the time to think that through and take the initiative and then print it, I mean, I guarantee you like 100,000 people have used that prayer in their frustration.
00:33:01
Speaker
And so I just think it's really important
00:33:07
Speaker
It's easy for me to judge devotional art because I don't tend to connect with a lot of the artistic and creative and aesthetic choices made by Christians.
00:33:21
Speaker
But at the same time, if my mom, you know, listens to a
00:33:30
Speaker
for King and country song, I'm just thinking of a big Christian band and it brings her closer to the Lord.
00:33:35
Speaker
I mean, that's devotional art in my opinion, then they've done something really good.
00:33:40
Speaker
Even if I'm hearing their vocal production and thinking, ah, I kind of wish we had changed up a little guys.
00:33:46
Speaker
It doesn't
Movies as Personal Reflection
00:33:47
Speaker
matter what I think.
00:33:47
Speaker
So the place, the art that brings me closest to God is film.
00:33:55
Speaker
I love watching movies by myself.
00:33:58
Speaker
I've always since becoming a Christian felt like God, like I can watch a movie by myself and I, and I, it becomes a moment of fun and prayer for me.
00:34:09
Speaker
And that can, that can be the most secular of films like James Cameron's aliens.
00:34:16
Speaker
I love that movie so much.
00:34:17
Speaker
What I love about that movie is, well, I love everything about that movie.
00:34:25
Speaker
I love the set design and I can actually go to God and be like, God, isn't that cool?
00:34:29
Speaker
Like think of all the people who spent so much time designing this terrifying space lab.
00:34:36
Speaker
And it sounds, it's devotional for me only because it brings me to God and we get to like connect over creativity and the gifts that he gives other people and the way that God expresses himself through people, whether they realize it or not.
00:34:47
Speaker
Like I love that so much.
00:34:50
Speaker
So even just the definition of devotional art is kind of up in the air for me, but, um,
00:34:56
Speaker
Now I'm getting distracted.
00:34:57
Speaker
I don't even remember what you asked me.
00:34:58
Speaker
That's okay.
00:34:59
Speaker
I just asked about devotional art generally, but no, I, I love that idea too.
00:35:04
Speaker
I, I go crazy about seeing God in quote unquote secular art.
00:35:10
Speaker
Like my brother and I just went and watched the creator, which is a new sci-fi movie.
00:35:16
Speaker
Gareth Edwards did.
00:35:17
Speaker
And I was like, I need to watch it again.
00:35:19
Speaker
Cause it was a little unwieldy.
00:35:20
Speaker
And I'm like, I gotta get my hands around a little more, but yeah,
00:35:24
Speaker
It's just like, man, I feel like there's a lot of like God somewhere in this movie about, I don't know, just the themes of like love that were in it.
00:35:34
Speaker
And there was a lot of like war, like heavy war stuff.
00:35:40
Speaker
But I felt like just the way they approached it, I was like, I don't know.
00:35:43
Speaker
I feel like at least in my soul, I feel like God was doing something.
00:35:47
Speaker
And I feel that so much.
00:35:49
Speaker
But then thinking about like,
00:35:53
Speaker
the grace of God to use people that don't even know they're being used by God.
00:36:00
Speaker
And like...
00:36:02
Speaker
to co-create with people that don't know they're co-creating with God, you know?
00:36:07
Speaker
And yeah.
00:36:10
Speaker
And I love what you said about like the set design, which might be a little bit because I do some set design too, but I love the idea of like, God just sees a beautiful thing and loves it, you know, and loves the care put into it.
00:36:23
Speaker
And like, like in the Bible, the lengthy descriptions of the temple where it's like, why do we need to know exactly what,
00:36:31
Speaker
this little detail of the temple but I'm like dang God just like he set down that beautiful building that was built and like in his word there's such a description of it where if we wanted to we probably could recreate it and part of that was probably because it was important for the Jews but also I'm like what if God just like loved that so much and was like I just want people to remember this because it was beautiful
00:36:59
Speaker
Yeah, that's an interesting way to see it.
00:37:04
Speaker
I feel like God has left his fingerprints like all over creation, right?
00:37:12
Speaker
And God's fingerprints are there's this truth to it.
00:37:16
Speaker
So if you if you dig in the dirt, or you, you study a tree or the solar system, you're gonna see within creation, a lot of truth.
00:37:27
Speaker
And
00:37:30
Speaker
I think similarly in humans and then in the things that we create, there's going to be fingerprints there too.
00:37:39
Speaker
And God is, you know, in this process of like recreating us and recreating this reality, this world that is broken.
00:37:50
Speaker
I like that idea of God partnering with us, even when we don't realize it.
00:37:54
Speaker
And, you know, if, if an architect designs a beautiful home and then, you know, an independent contractor builds that home using all these materials, like they are co-creating with God because God's fingerprints, even in the materials are there.
00:38:11
Speaker
And I think maybe that's why if we have an open mind, we can read a book or watch a movie or,
00:38:19
Speaker
You know, I love Japanese landscape painting is a really good example.
00:38:23
Speaker
I love Japanese landscape painting.
00:38:25
Speaker
And I see God's fingerprints all over that.
00:38:33
Speaker
Even if it was done, you know, with a completely different worldview and even like religious perspective in mind.
00:38:40
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:38:43
Speaker
Hey friends, I hope you're enjoying today's episode.
00:38:45
Speaker
I just wanted to take a second to share with you guys the exciting project that's in the works here at Artists of the Way.
00:38:50
Speaker
We're going to be staging a production of Godspell in 2024.
00:38:54
Speaker
Godspell is a musical based on the Gospel of Matthew.
00:38:57
Speaker
The script is comprised mostly of excerpts from the Gospel of Matthew.
00:39:02
Speaker
And the songs are mostly old hymns or straight scripture, which has been recomposed into kind of a rock musical theater style song.
00:39:11
Speaker
It's a wonderful show.
00:39:13
Speaker
I grew up on it.
00:39:14
Speaker
It's been a passion project of mine to direct for five years, and I'm so excited to tackle it.
00:39:19
Speaker
If you want to know more about that, you can visit our website, artistsoftheway.com, and visit our Godspell page.
00:39:25
Speaker
There you'll be able to find show details and information on fundraising if you're interested in helping support the production.
00:39:32
Speaker
If you want to stay up to date with everything regarding Godspell or our podcast, sign up for our email newsletter.
Promoting Godspell Production
00:39:38
Speaker
We have a newsletter that goes out every two weeks.
00:39:41
Speaker
We'll let you know when new episodes are posted.
00:39:43
Speaker
I'll share some thoughts that I've had over the last couple weeks, and we'll be keeping you guys up to date on everything Godspell related.
00:39:50
Speaker
Thanks.
00:39:50
Speaker
Enjoy the rest of the show.
00:39:54
Speaker
I'm curious how having a child
00:39:57
Speaker
has affected you artistically.
Legacy and Parenthood
00:40:00
Speaker
Specifically because there's a play that I really want to write about Abraham and Isaac going up the mountain to where Abraham's going to sacrifice Isaac.
00:40:08
Speaker
And I've specifically not written that play because I don't feel like I can get a grasp on it until I have a child.
00:40:15
Speaker
And I've heard in some of your songs, like there's songs that are to your son or about your son or about the experience of now having a son.
00:40:22
Speaker
I'm curious,
00:40:24
Speaker
Like those are obviously an outworking of that, but I guess, are there other ways where you feel like your perspective as a creator has changed now that you have a child?
00:40:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:37
Speaker
I care more about what my songs say because I know, or at least I hope someday my children will take the time to listen and think about what I said.
00:40:49
Speaker
They leave a legacy, whether I want it or not.
00:40:53
Speaker
And yeah,
00:40:55
Speaker
It forces me to be a little bit more thoughtful and considerate about what I'm saying and why.
00:41:02
Speaker
And what I create now will reflect them.
00:41:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:08
Speaker
So it's just added a little bit of depth and thought to what I do.
00:41:17
Speaker
And I really want what I create to be life-giving.
00:41:20
Speaker
That's how...
00:41:22
Speaker
life giving, you know, bringing peace and hopefully bringing people closer to a relationship with their creator and affirming of the beautiful things in the world and, you know, lending language to working through the things that are really difficult.
00:41:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:43
Speaker
So yeah, I just think about it a little bit more, what I'm saying and why.
00:41:47
Speaker
I think I was edgier when I was younger and a little bit more careless about what I was saying and why.
00:41:56
Speaker
And I think that's a good intuition you have in regards to waiting until you have a child, if you have a child to write that play out.
00:42:07
Speaker
Although I will say, if you have a kid, you suddenly,
00:42:14
Speaker
have something that you love so much that you've given so much of yourself to, you share DNA.
00:42:23
Speaker
And there is this weight and this sense of surrender because you want to control and protect them.
00:42:32
Speaker
And you wanna see them succeed.
00:42:34
Speaker
You don't wanna see them fail.
00:42:35
Speaker
You don't wanna see them bullied or hurt.
00:42:38
Speaker
You don't wanna see them
00:42:42
Speaker
experience the dark and the pain of this world.
00:42:45
Speaker
And so you realize quickly that you can't protect them like that.
00:42:49
Speaker
And so you have to surrender it to God, which is really what that story of Abraham and Isaac's about.
00:42:56
Speaker
And, you know, I think about foster parents who open up their homes, not knowing whether or not a child's going to stay there for two nights or forever.
00:43:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:11
Speaker
And I have this like almost endless respect for people who do that well.
00:43:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:17
Speaker
And I think that
00:43:21
Speaker
that's maybe even closer to the heart of Abraham and Isaac than even just having a natural biological child and knowing they're gonna be yours forever because you fall in love with a kid you're fostering and then suddenly they're taken away.
00:43:35
Speaker
So you have to immediately surrender any illusion of control over the situation.
00:43:41
Speaker
And that feels like it's at the heart of that story.
00:43:48
Speaker
I love that you wanna do a production about that.
00:43:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's, well, part of that is, and this will be part of my gospel production too, but like part of like my ministerial heart is like, I feel like everybody at some point in their life has an, at least one, if not many Abraham Isaac moments of, hey, this thing that you love, are you okay if God takes it away?
Emotional Weight of Abraham and Isaac
00:44:16
Speaker
Because that's a big question.
00:44:17
Speaker
And I've had to ask that question about art before.
00:44:20
Speaker
I've had to ask that question about my relationship with my wife before.
00:44:23
Speaker
And I feel like that's a hard question that a lot of times doesn't get asked.
00:44:29
Speaker
And I just want to ask it in that play.
00:44:32
Speaker
And then I sat down to write it.
00:44:34
Speaker
And I was like, boy, I know how to process this question a little bit as an
00:44:40
Speaker
artist and what that experience is like but i have no idea where the like intellectually i know because i've been on the other side of that and i've been like mom you gotta let me spread my wings you know and so i've like walked through that and as i was walking through like the child to parent side of that been like oh at some point i'm gonna have to walk through this as a parent and that's gonna be interesting so like intellectually i've thought about that but emotionally i'm
00:45:06
Speaker
Like, I will still have to walk through that.
00:45:08
Speaker
I'm going to suck at letting go of my child.
00:45:11
Speaker
I just know I am.
00:45:15
Speaker
But I'm like, because the emotionality of that is so important.
00:45:19
Speaker
I'm like, thematically, I feel like I can grasp it.
00:45:22
Speaker
But emotionally, I don't feel like I've walked that through enough, which 17-year-old John would have been like, that doesn't matter.
00:45:28
Speaker
You can make it dramatic.
00:45:29
Speaker
Just write it.
00:45:30
Speaker
But I'm like, I don't know.
00:45:32
Speaker
I feel like I need, I need,
00:45:35
Speaker
something there to really grasp at like the agony that Abraham would have had to walk through.
00:45:41
Speaker
Cause it's, it's not just, I mean, it, it's not just like a vocation.
00:45:49
Speaker
It's every hope and dream that he ever had.
00:45:53
Speaker
And also it's his son, you know, and there's just, I mean, that's, that's one of those stories.
00:46:00
Speaker
That's like, this doesn't make me feel comfortable.
00:46:03
Speaker
This is kind of,
00:46:05
Speaker
Weird, but I feel like it's such a profoundly important story in like the lexicon of being a Christian and scripture.
00:46:16
Speaker
Yeah, I really want to write it.
00:46:18
Speaker
So I want to like give it like the tone of the God of War reboot and well, reboot sequel thing in 2018, where you've got like this gruff guy and this little kid who doesn't really know what's going on.
00:46:30
Speaker
And just walking up that mountain for two hours.
00:46:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:35
Speaker
And I have no structure yet for it or anything.
00:46:37
Speaker
I just have the vibe.
00:46:38
Speaker
That's cool.
00:46:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:42
Speaker
Well, I'd go see that play.
00:46:46
Speaker
It can be kind of maybe abused, but the write what you know.
00:46:53
Speaker
Write what you know, it makes sense.
00:46:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:59
Speaker
And I definitely used to be like the, that's dumb.
00:47:02
Speaker
I don't need to, which was probably because I was 16 and wanted to write a bunch of stuff.
00:47:06
Speaker
It's like, I don't have to wait.
00:47:07
Speaker
I can write it now.
00:47:09
Speaker
But now I'm very much like.
00:47:11
Speaker
Oh, sorry to interrupt.
00:47:12
Speaker
Keep going.
00:47:12
Speaker
Oh, you're good.
00:47:13
Speaker
I was just going to repeat how I'm very much like, no, I need to experience something of it.
00:47:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:20
Speaker
Have you seen Fablemans, the Spielberg movie?
00:47:25
Speaker
I have not.
00:47:26
Speaker
So I'm a deep film lover.
00:47:27
Speaker
And yet in the last like two years, I've been so bad at going to see.
00:47:32
Speaker
I've had like this list of like movies where I'm like, oh, I have to go.
00:47:35
Speaker
That's an event movie.
00:47:36
Speaker
And Fablemans was one of them that I haven't gotten around to seeing yet.
00:47:40
Speaker
I want to see it really badly.
00:47:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:44
Speaker
Yeah, you should.
00:47:44
Speaker
And it's a pretty intimate movie.
00:47:47
Speaker
And of course, Spielberg writing when he knows.
00:47:51
Speaker
Right.
00:47:52
Speaker
I appreciate it.
00:47:54
Speaker
I actually, if I had five minutes with Steven Spielberg, I would beg him to do a biblical epic.
00:48:03
Speaker
Oh, man.
00:48:04
Speaker
That would be cool.
00:48:06
Speaker
Like, please do the story of Joseph.
00:48:09
Speaker
Or please do the Ten Commandments.
00:48:12
Speaker
Or I just think something from the Torah.
00:48:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:18
Speaker
because of, you know, his Jewish heritage and it just do it as gritty and as real as you can.
00:48:23
Speaker
I just would really like that.
00:48:25
Speaker
Well, in the one time that he kind of had his hands on something with Prince of Egypt, where he was producing in some sense, like, my gosh, what a what an amazing I could gush about that movie all day long.
00:48:39
Speaker
Yeah, so I would love to see that would be so cool.
00:48:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:45
Speaker
Or even the story, the story of David.
00:48:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:49
Speaker
There's so many good stories.
00:48:51
Speaker
David is one where I'm like another one where I'm like right for adaptation so much there in any phase of his life.
00:49:00
Speaker
And we that one hasn't had like a big budget epic or sweeping musical.
00:49:07
Speaker
And I'm like, why?
00:49:08
Speaker
It's just so perfect.
00:49:10
Speaker
He has.
00:49:12
Speaker
Yeah, I could.
00:49:13
Speaker
I think.
00:49:15
Speaker
Probably because it's super complicated.
00:49:16
Speaker
It is.
00:49:17
Speaker
It's hard to do.
00:49:18
Speaker
Yeah, that would be a great one to do like a mini series of or multi season series.
00:49:27
Speaker
Yeah, the drama of the Bible is like a whole other topic we could probably talk about for an hour.
00:49:32
Speaker
But yeah, especially David.
00:49:33
Speaker
I love those characters.
00:49:35
Speaker
And Jonathan just breaks my heart.
00:49:37
Speaker
Every time.
00:49:39
Speaker
I'm like, man, that poor guy.
00:49:44
Speaker
He was just trying to be a good friend.
00:49:46
Speaker
And then his dad goes and summons a ghost.
00:49:49
Speaker
And then it's like, oh, well, now your whole family's dead.
00:49:52
Speaker
I'm like, oh, poor Jonathan.
00:49:55
Speaker
Oh, cool.
00:49:57
Speaker
This has been lovely.
00:49:58
Speaker
I'm nearing, we're at about 50 minutes now.
00:50:01
Speaker
So I'm going to ask if there were like some resources or somewhere that you would want to direct people that are wanting to kind of deepen or enrich their lives artistically or spiritually.
00:50:17
Speaker
Are there some like key go-to things where you're like,
00:50:22
Speaker
man, go read this or watch this or do this thing?
Engaging with Diverse Art Forms
00:50:31
Speaker
I think artistically, I would encourage people to just go have more artistic experiences.
00:50:44
Speaker
So I would say, you know, walking through an art museum, going to the local theater,
00:50:52
Speaker
going and seeing a symphony.
00:50:56
Speaker
That's what I would say.
00:50:58
Speaker
Taking a paint by numbers class, it doesn't really matter to me.
00:51:02
Speaker
I just think going and being creative.
00:51:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:51:07
Speaker
I mean, that's not a revolutionary answer, but... But there is, I think a lot of times we're like, oh, I have to like, well, I mean, I definitely have this.
00:51:15
Speaker
We're like, we have to learn about it.
00:51:17
Speaker
But there's definitely art is like a doing thing.
00:51:22
Speaker
You know?
00:51:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:51:24
Speaker
And I think exposing ourselves to more art and different types of art.
00:51:32
Speaker
know there's a reason that like 80 of the worship music made today all sounds the same and i think it is what it is but the more i think that christian artists discover like different types of art different types of christian art you know digging deeper into the
00:51:55
Speaker
outer edges of Christian art or the history of Christian art, history of the church, history of patronage within the church, all of those things, like learning about it and discovering more art.
00:52:05
Speaker
That's why I suggest an art museum because you realize that especially when in Europe, so much of it was created, you know, for the church, by the church.
00:52:17
Speaker
But I would actually have more to say about enriching a spiritual
Modern Rule of Life and Sabbath
00:52:24
Speaker
life.
00:52:24
Speaker
I think,
00:52:27
Speaker
my wife and I and the church where I work, we've been going through this program called Practicing the Way, which is, it kind of was birthed out of Bridgetown Church in Portland, Oregon.
00:52:43
Speaker
And it's basically the creating of a modern rule of life, but it's trying to structure your life
00:52:56
Speaker
So that has spiritual disciplines.
00:53:00
Speaker
The one that we've started with is Sabbath.
00:53:03
Speaker
And for us, it just looks like as a family on a Friday night, having a nice meal and turning off our phones and then trying to get as much rest as we can, like good sleep.
00:53:18
Speaker
And then on Saturday, if we can, um,
00:53:22
Speaker
keeping our phones off and just not working.
00:53:25
Speaker
So just enjoying a hike or gardening, not checking emails, not checking social media.
00:53:34
Speaker
Yeah, eating good food, going somewhere beautiful, watching a movie, reading a book, taking a nap, baking cookies, just really living into these good things that God has given us and surrendering our work to him.
00:53:51
Speaker
I think it's doing wonders for us.
00:53:54
Speaker
And I would say that it probably has really, will help, has helped my creative output and my artistic output and helps me feel closer to the Lord.
00:54:07
Speaker
It feels like there's more peace in our home.
00:54:11
Speaker
So I don't know if I would say practicing the way specifically is the one you should do, but reading like Richard J. Foster's Celebration of Discipline,
00:54:22
Speaker
Just reading about prayer, Sabbath, fasting, solitude, silence, community, and trying to say no more than you say yes so your weekly rhythm just has a little bit more space.
00:54:43
Speaker
That to me feels revolutionary right now in our current society.
00:54:48
Speaker
And I need it.
00:54:49
Speaker
I long for it.
00:54:50
Speaker
I'm desperate for
00:54:53
Speaker
I'm desperate to be away from my phones specifically.
00:54:57
Speaker
So I feel that I feel like God has, God's done that in my own life as well.
00:55:02
Speaker
And right now I'm definitely worse at my like Sabbath rhythm and stuff.
00:55:06
Speaker
And,
00:55:07
Speaker
But I feel like artists have the tendency of like, we've always got to be creating and making and doing something.
00:55:13
Speaker
And if we're not doing something, then, you know, and I know, especially like in theater, people are like, I auditioned for this show here and then it closes here.
00:55:20
Speaker
So I'm going to audition for this show at this point.
00:55:22
Speaker
So then I'll be jumping right into rehearsals and like, it's a constant go, go, go, which I think is also a reflection of our time.
00:55:31
Speaker
But yeah, that space to rest and just like enjoy everything.
00:55:37
Speaker
God's world like, ah, yeah, that's awesome.
00:55:44
Speaker
It's so good.
00:55:47
Speaker
Um, I've just had this ache to simplify my life and I don't know if it's cause I'm getting older, but I've also just been growing.
00:56:00
Speaker
I have a, um,
00:56:05
Speaker
a growing distaste for popular philosophy and popular wisdom.
00:56:14
Speaker
And I just, I'm craving something richer and more rooted and smaller and less ambitious and more focused on my family and my neighbors and the people that God is bringing into my orbit here.
00:56:32
Speaker
And, um, yeah.
00:56:36
Speaker
I think that's what I would say, especially to creatives, because if you're anything like me, like I could lay awake and write a song in my head.
00:56:47
Speaker
And it used to be that that's what I did.
00:56:53
Speaker
I barely slept and I was, I obsessed over what I was making.
00:56:56
Speaker
And that can be a superpower at certain moments.
00:57:01
Speaker
Really.
00:57:02
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:57:03
Speaker
but it just may be an unhealthy one a very self-focused one and um it's not a good rhythm it's not and um i think our productivity goes up when we say yes to fewer things which sounds counterintuitive um
00:57:28
Speaker
But I think our brains and our bodies weren't made to do so much.
00:57:31
Speaker
I don't think our brains were made to maintain so many relationships online or to receive so much information.
00:57:38
Speaker
I think there's so much pollution in our world, specifically information pollution and noise pollution and light pollution, screens.
00:57:51
Speaker
And I just think God created us.
00:57:56
Speaker
I was going to say it sounds hippie, but it's not.
00:57:58
Speaker
I think God created us to be living simpler lives, closer lives, getting in our car less, being on our phone less.
00:58:12
Speaker
I could talk about that for a long time.
00:58:14
Speaker
Yeah, same.
00:58:16
Speaker
I mean, like I have Spider-Man 2 now, that new Spider-Man game, and I'm loving it.
00:58:19
Speaker
But as vast and like incredible of a video game as that is, like it does not compare at all to just going out on my porch on a fall day with my wife and we're sitting and we're eating good food and you hear birds and you smell that fall breeze like...
00:58:36
Speaker
like you can tell that's what God made us for 100%.
00:58:39
Speaker
Yeah, that's wonderful.
00:58:43
Speaker
Awesome.
00:58:43
Speaker
Well, maybe a good Sabbath practice would be is it PlayStation?
00:58:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:49
Speaker
Maybe a good Sabbath practice would be
00:58:52
Speaker
like putting the PlayStation in a closet from like Friday night all through Saturday.
00:58:56
Speaker
Cause you know, you're going to want to play Spider-Man too.
00:58:59
Speaker
I know.
00:58:59
Speaker
And this week already, I was like, I was like, boy, I think I'm starting to not sleep quite as well.
00:59:05
Speaker
Cause I think I'm staying up a little late.
00:59:06
Speaker
So I was like, okay, I really need to this weekend put away Spider-Man too.
00:59:12
Speaker
which I haven't done successfully because my brother came over and was like, you could play Spider-Man two for 15 minutes while we wait.
00:59:17
Speaker
And I could watch the web swinging.
00:59:18
Speaker
And I was like, I could, so I've already not done well with that, but yeah.
00:59:22
Speaker
And I think that discipline and self-control is good for an artist.
00:59:27
Speaker
Anyways.
00:59:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:28
Speaker
We could, we could, we could go on and on and on about this.
00:59:31
Speaker
Um, but we're, yeah, we're at an hour.
00:59:33
Speaker
So thank you.
00:59:35
Speaker
Thank you for coming on.
00:59:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:37
Speaker
I really appreciate it.
00:59:38
Speaker
I, um,
00:59:41
Speaker
love talking about these things it's good it's important so i appreciate it i look forward to someday seeing godspell yeah that would be great i'm i'm doing it next year so if you i could give you a free ticket um i just got to find my way to west uh michigan to west michigan to a big i love michigan with a newborn it's so beautiful do you remember the soil the soil and the sun yes the band yeah so
01:00:07
Speaker
I, uh, that's an example of a Michigan band that I loved playing with whenever we'd come through.
01:00:11
Speaker
And when I was just, sorry, last thing I'll say is I was just become a Christian and we played, I don't know if it was Ann Arbor or Grand Rapids, but it's at the pyramid room.
01:00:23
Speaker
I don't know.
01:00:24
Speaker
There was this name of a venue and we played with them and they were so much better than we were.
01:00:28
Speaker
Was it a, was it a smaller venue?
01:00:32
Speaker
Yeah, maybe like we have like a pyramid scheme is a small one.
01:00:37
Speaker
Yeah, that's here in GR.
01:00:39
Speaker
Yeah.
01:00:39
Speaker
And they were so good and so nice.
01:00:43
Speaker
And they invited us over for pancakes the next morning.
01:00:47
Speaker
We went over to this house and they made us pancakes and I found out they were Christians, like a good number of them.
01:00:54
Speaker
And it was so encouraging to me because I didn't really, I never was around Christians on tour.
01:01:01
Speaker
Anyways, good Michigan memory there to end this podcast interview.
01:01:06
Speaker
Yeah.
01:01:07
Speaker
Awesome.