Transcript
Speaker: Welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John, the host.
Speaker: I'm Nate, the co-host.
Speaker: He is.
Speaker: I just went into my script there and I was like, that's not correct anymore.
Speaker: I have a co-host now.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Hopefully you're used to him by now because you'll have had three episodes.
Speaker: Our last episode is more serious because we had somebody else on.
Speaker: That's how that goes.
Speaker: Good to behave.
Speaker: Get ready for shenanigans.
Speaker: We just talked for 20 minutes about randomness that's going to be tacked on at the end of the episode.
Speaker: Bonus content.
Speaker: It's mostly me rambling about a video game, but we thought it was funny.
Speaker: If people really like us, they might listen.
Speaker: Listen, if you really like us, we know who the true fans are slash friends who listen.
Speaker: France.
Speaker: France!
Speaker: We're back!
Speaker: We talked about France on the video game section!
Speaker: It's coming full circle!
Speaker: What we're actually going to talk about today is simplicity in art.
Speaker: So Nate's proposal was that we say one word every 30 seconds to really simplify.
Speaker: Dude, I thought that.
Speaker: That's how synced up we are.
Speaker: Oh, I broke it.
Speaker: R. There we go.
Speaker: You're like, come on, John, work with me.
Speaker: In the bonus content, they can listen to us singing Holy, Holy Denmark.
Speaker: We sounded nice.
Speaker: We did.
Speaker: We said some of the same words.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think it was good.
Speaker: That's our new hymn is Holy, Holy Denmark.
Speaker: I don't need to get onto this.
Speaker: Nope.
Speaker: Here we go.
Speaker: We're into the real podcast.
Speaker: Serious stuff now.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: Yeah, this topic came up because I was watching a YouTube video about fantasy storytelling.
Speaker: And it was about how modern fantasy isn't as good as classic fantasy.
Speaker: And it was specifically analyzing Star Wars The Last Jedi and The Rings of Power.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And talking about how those don't seem to be capturing the essence of the original things that they are mirroring.
Speaker: You can agree or disagree.
Speaker: I happen to like both of those things, which is a highly controversial opinion.
Speaker: You like one of them.
Speaker: I don't know if you like The Last Jedi.
Speaker: Is The Last Jedi Episode 8?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: There's parts of it I don't like, but overall I think I like it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I watched it and I liked it.
Speaker: And then the more I thought about it, I was like, wait, this wasn't good.
Speaker: I think there's one of the plot lines that's good.
Speaker: which features the protagonist.
Speaker: So I think that's maybe why I like it.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Cause that's what sticks out as I'm like, what's the story of last Jedi?
Speaker: It's this, but then there's another like 45 minutes of it that I'm like, Oh, there's that part.
Speaker: And it's not as good.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, but I really liked that other like hour or hour and 15.
Speaker: Why are those bad, though, according to this YouTuber?
Speaker: So he was saying fantasy is inherently an elevated genre, and they are trying to make it realistic.
Speaker: And thus making it too complex, which I thought was an interesting take that I don't know that I agreed with, but it did make me think, because I'm writing my own fantasy series.
Speaker: And I am very heavily...
Speaker: inspired in my artistic work by Tolkien and what he crafted there and really the work of all his contemporaries and just that sort of vibe.
Speaker: So I care about if and how I'm emulating that, I suppose.
Speaker: And so I was like thinking about it.
Speaker: And so he was like, Lord of the Rings...
Speaker: has like these almost archetypal characters.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: With less moral ambiguity.
Speaker: And he's like, when they're trying to make it realistic, they're trying to add all these complex layers to these characters and things that don't fit with this genre.
Speaker: I don't know that I agree with that.
Speaker: 100%, but I also agree to a degree.
Speaker: Because I was thinking about... Sorry, I'm picking up my lip.
Speaker: There's... Two of my favorite fictional characters are what are called flat characters who don't really go on an arc and just kind of are, which is Captain America and Aragorn.
Speaker: Aragorn goes through an arc in the movies, but not as much one in the books.
Speaker: He's just like, yep, I'm the king.
Speaker: I'm here with my sword that says I'm the king.
Speaker: And I'm going to... Read the sword.
Speaker: Read the sword and see the Christ-like imagery that is maybe not intended to be on me.
Speaker: I have a beard.
Speaker: I have a beard.
Speaker: I'm going to lead some ghosts.
Speaker: Piercing eyes.
Speaker: Piercing eyes.
Speaker: Ooh.
Speaker: Oh, he took many captive.
Speaker: What's the passage?
Speaker: Set the captives free.
Speaker: That's another one.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think I was thinking of a different one.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But no, that's... Comment the passage down below.
Speaker: No, yeah, I hadn't thought of that parallel.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So... Descended into Hades.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: That's interesting.
Speaker: That whole, like, chapter where he's, like, leading the army of the dead to Minas Tirith, I'm just like... And everybody's like, whoa, it's the king.
Speaker: And he's terrifying, but also amazing.
Speaker: I'm like, this is just...
Speaker: I don't know if you meant for this to be Jesus Tolkien, but it does feel pretty Jesus-y.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker: But so Aragorn and Captain America are both basically flat characters.
Speaker: They don't change.
Speaker: I think they go through things and I think they're challenged, but they don't really change.
Speaker: They don't like everything that happens to them.
Speaker: They don't.
Speaker: They're not like, yay.
Speaker: But they are just like...
Speaker: Who is Aragorn?
Speaker: Well, he's the king of Gondor and he's a ranger, which means he's great at everything.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But he's also sensitive, but he's also strong.
Speaker: And who's Captain America?
Speaker: Well, he doesn't like bullies and he's basically perfect.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And they're just like, but somehow it works.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That is interesting.
Speaker: It got me reflecting on that.
Speaker: Do you know any flat people that you really like?
Speaker: I don't know if I believe there are flat people.
Speaker: Well, I have a drawing here for you.
Speaker: Oh!
Speaker: Oh, he's in two dimensions!
Speaker: Believe!
Speaker: Unless I see the granite markings in his hands.
Speaker: Unless I see the lack of shading below his forearm.
Speaker: And see the strange proportions in his nose and face.
Speaker: I will not believe.
Speaker: No flat people, though.
Speaker: There's less dramatic people than others.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it.
Speaker: I think there's less dramatic people than others, but I don't think there's less flat.
Speaker: There's people who are steady.
Speaker: Yes, but I think they still have...
Speaker: things that they're wrestling with they're just maybe not as a parent they don't tell us about them in a different way yeah yeah um which isn't well no that is kind of the same as flat characters because a lot of times if you're doing storytelling we're just going to zoom in on storytelling for a little bit and then we can zoom out but uh the way to write a flat character generally is considered to be
Speaker: the world around them tries, like, challenges them to try and make them change.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Cap is a really, really good example of that because his first movie just establishes who he is.
Speaker: And that's it, basically.
Speaker: And he has to fight Nazis.
Speaker: It's simple.
Speaker: It is simple.
Speaker: And then his second movie, it's like, okay, he's Captain America, so, of course, he's working with America.
Speaker: But it's a very different America, and it's all full of spies.
Speaker: It also has Nazis.
Speaker: It also has Nazis in there.
Speaker: So he's like, I don't know if I like working with Nazis if they have my name.
Speaker: But he's challenged on every level.
Speaker: He has to go rogue.
Speaker: He has to fight his best friend.
Speaker: But he can do that all day.
Speaker: He can do that all day.
Speaker: But he has to question...
Speaker: If if his like code still works and that question is raised and he says yes my code of ethics does still work it just maybe doesn't map on to onto you guys right it doesn't map on to the country the same way I thought it did or this organization or agency the same way I thought it did.
Speaker: in the world of the story.
Speaker: And so he's like, okay, I'm, I, and he ultimately does stay true to who he is.
Speaker: And then Civil War takes it another level where it's like, okay, what if your found family is going to put pressure on you?
Speaker: It's like, oh shoot.
Speaker: Well, now my found family wants me to change my code of ethics.
Speaker: I'm going to stay true to my code of ethics again.
Speaker: And so it just continually puts the pressure on.
Speaker: And so that's kind of what you would do with a flat arc.
Speaker: So in theory, I guess there, see, but I don't,
Speaker: I don't know if I believe that people don't change when they're under pressure.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: Not necessarily.
Speaker: That they cave.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: They can get more resolute.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And like the way they handle situations might shift a little bit.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But not in like motive, but in like tactic, you know?
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: For example, I went through a lot in 2024, which has made me a bit bolder, I think.
Speaker: But I don't know that my values around things have changed in 2024.
Speaker: But I think I am bolder in how I'm navigating situations and in talking to people about different things.
Speaker: That's really cool.
Speaker: It's been cool.
Speaker: But does that make sense?
Speaker: On flat people?
Speaker: Do you disagree or do you agree?
Speaker: I think I agree.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think people can stay true and stay the course.
Speaker: It doesn't mean they're any less people for not having less fluctuating and it doesn't mean they have...
Speaker: like, like their relationship with God is any less real.
Speaker: Um, but I think there's people just that are just doing their thing faithfully.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so there's part of that where I'm like, well, flat characters aren't necessarily inherently, I think flat characters are more complicated to write actually than, um,
Speaker: complex characters.
Speaker: So from a creating art standpoint, I don't think it's simpler.
Speaker: Because you have to do it well.
Speaker: That's why people think that Superman is boring is just because there haven't been
Speaker: many stories in the public, like widespread public view that have challenged him in an interesting way.
Speaker: Because he's like the ultimate flat character where he's like, I almost always have a perfect morality unless you're destroying everything about Superman as a character.
Speaker: His morality is generally pretty fixed.
Speaker: He can like have questions about things, but he's pretty like he's always going to do the right thing.
Speaker: And he's also invincible and super strong and can do everything because he was the first superhero.
Speaker: And he's a Jesus character.
Speaker: And so is Jesus actually, is he a flat character?
Speaker: Is Jesus a flat character?
Speaker: Well, he doesn't, by definition, yes.
Speaker: Because if you're looking at it in fictional terms, he does not go on an arc of change.
Speaker: He does not change.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Or grow, he is challenged and pressures put on him.
Speaker: Or the growing happens.
Speaker: Well, Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, but we don't really see that part.
Speaker: That happened off screen.
Speaker: That was off screen.
Speaker: So I guess maybe he wasn't a flat character.
Speaker: I mean, that's a big theological debate of...
Speaker: uh how did he grow up how did he grow in wisdom did he did he do a stupid thing and then have to learn from it or was he always perfect in that regard that's kind of a big theological debate um of like the humanity and divinity back and forth of jesus right which probably gets into the weeds but um
Speaker: But I think a lot of times those flat characters are things, and this was something the video said and I agree with, are things we either strive towards or strive away from.
Speaker: So, like, we've got Captain America is a character that is very inspirational to me, and I strive towards that kind of living.
Speaker: And Voldemort is a flat, evil guy that people are going to be like, I don't really want to put my soul into a thousand different objects and kill people.
Speaker: That was exaggerating.
Speaker: Oh, that's true.
Speaker: Seven different objects.
Speaker: There you go.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so in that way, Jesus also fits into that quite well, I guess, because he should be the ultimate thing we're striving towards.
Speaker: But he's also, he's probably the only flat character in the Bible.
Speaker: I mean, unless you're going to parse the Trinity into different characters.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I mean, yeah, probably technically, but like maybe narratively wise, are there like Daniel?
Speaker: Daniel?
Speaker: Oh, maybe Daniel is a flat character.
Speaker: Does Daniel make a mistake ever?
Speaker: I don't think he does.
Speaker: I don't think so.
Speaker: You've squashed my point.
Speaker: Well done.
Speaker: Thanks, buddy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Nope.
Speaker: I think Daniel's pretty solid.
Speaker: I guess Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, too, then.
Speaker: Yeah, they're just in one story, though.
Speaker: Two stories.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: But they're fewer in the Bible.
Speaker: I feel like the Bible almost always is like, here's this really great dude.
Speaker: They did a really messed up thing.
Speaker: But yes, so yeah, I don't know.
Speaker: It was just interesting to me because when I think about art, when I'm creating,
Speaker: I feel like I'm always trying to delve down a layer into complexity and realism.
Speaker: And I'm always trying to see what's underneath this layer and what's underneath this layer.
Speaker: And in writing my own fantasy story, like I'm trying to, it's really all about redemption, which means I'm trying to make it very complex because...
Speaker: we can go incredibly far into the depths of depravity and still be redeemed, you know?
Speaker: Um, and so I, there's a lot of sort of complex psychological things happening there to those characters and their growth to the point where they need to be redeemed from something and then they get to that point of redemption.
Speaker: But then I'm like, is that, is that less inspirational to people?
Speaker: Like ironically.
Speaker: Right, because you would think in creating something that's more complex and makes people relate to it more, that that would be inspirational.
Speaker: You know, if I can see somebody fall and get back up and see how God can redeem us, I feel like I should be really highly inspired by that.
Speaker: But I don't think that that kind of story is ever going to hit me the same way that Aragorn or Captain America do.
Speaker: In the sense of just a simple sort of paragon.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Probably the answer is that a mix is nice when it comes to characters that we're looking at that we have that we can identify with the ups and the downs and see the lessons learned from that because we're an up and down, but also the aspirational is inspiring as well.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's interesting.
Speaker: And then finding what fits best with which story.
Speaker: Yeah, or having characters of both.
Speaker: Or yeah, both in the same story.
Speaker: Which has been something I've been thinking about too of like, well now I'm just talking about my own book.
Speaker: But can there be like examples of what these characters could be that they're falling short of and could be restored to that point later on?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I feel like I interrupted something you were about to say.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: If I did, I forgot.
Speaker: Well, I'm just that good.
Speaker: I make him forget he even wanted to say something.
Speaker: I don't even want it.
Speaker: I never want to talk.
Speaker: I don't want to listen to what you say.
Speaker: Are there some examples of simplistic art that you can think of that have been really meaningful for you or really great or stuck out?
Speaker: Dr. Seuss.
Speaker: Oh, that's a great one.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Why?
Speaker: Well, let's start with what I thought of and I'll see if my thoughts keep going.
Speaker: But the art for one thing is in a way very, can be very complex with the character design.
Speaker: But also you'll notice in some Dr. Seuss books, it's very colorful.
Speaker: And in some Dr. Seuss books, you think it's very colorful, but it's actually not.
Speaker: But it's like say Horton for instance or Cat in the Hat.
Speaker: There's usually in books like that only a few colors going on per page like two or maybe three.
Speaker: And they do different shades of the color but there's also a lot of white.
Speaker: The whole page isn't flooded with color but they put color in certain spaces and it's not even always a super vibrant color.
Speaker: And yet, you know, Dr. Seuss is portrayed as a super colorful figure in art.
Speaker: And some of his stuff was very colorful, did the full flood.
Speaker: And his fine art that he did was very colorful.
Speaker: But there's something about those books, I think...
Speaker: I'd be willing to say that I think his most successful and famous books were pretty low in color palette.
Speaker: That's interesting.
Speaker: I was watching another YouTube video.
Speaker: I'm just going to reveal how much time I spend watching video essays on this episode.
Speaker: But I was watching one that was like talking about...
Speaker: A lot of movies today are like, we have to be colorful and pop.
Speaker: And it's like almost oversaturation and looks ugly now, even though they've been trying to.
Speaker: And they're like, well, where did all this start?
Speaker: We think it started from Guardians of the Galaxy.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: And they were like, because Guardians of the Galaxy is super colorful, right?
Speaker: And it's similarly not.
Speaker: It just uses color in moments that make that color pop and make it feel colorful.
Speaker: Oh, is that right?
Speaker: But it's actually a more simple color palette of like, we've got some like browns and grays and blacks, and then they're all in yellow jumpsuits.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And her skin is green.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so that pops.
Speaker: So they're like, they use it very deliberately, but it's not as...
Speaker: overly saturated with color as you'd think, but then people are trying to mirror that and are just getting way overboard because the key is focus where, where, how is focus being brought?
Speaker: And I think that's, I can be a benefit of simple art is that you're not being distracted everywhere, but your eye is being joined to write into the thing that is important, which can be done.
Speaker: I think in any of the forms.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: I'll talk about it a little bit later, but Come From Away, my wife and I just saw in Toronto.
Speaker: And that was just like a cast in a very simple set.
Speaker: And it's a pretty sprawling story it's telling, but it's just like...
Speaker: 10 people, eight or 10 people, a company of like eight or 10 playing several different characters, but it just locks you in.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's just so simple.
Speaker: Like a black box can do that too.
Speaker: No, I think this is a lesson I need to learn as a graphic designer.
Speaker: Cause I,
Speaker: my intuition can be that to do a good job, I'm going to fill this base on the canvas with as much, um, intentionality and design essentially as meant not necessarily as I can, but you know, um, when a lot of really excellent design, I see, um,
Speaker: leaves like, you know, just a simple white background with its solid layout kind of thing.
Speaker: And I need to be humble enough and willing to do that myself.
Speaker: Um, I think it's also scary too, because I feel like you have to really trust it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like you have to trust whatever the simple thing is that you're putting out there is enough.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I think that's,
Speaker: in general, hard for me in life to, to believe that the simple thing that I'm putting out there is enough.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, I think that I'm actually doing it in the book that I'm illustrating right now.
Speaker: The, the scenery is, is very simple.
Speaker: There's actually like hardly any trees.
Speaker: It's just like kind of rolling Hills and some water often.
Speaker: And then like the pop of color is like the main thing.
Speaker: character yeah and i've wondered if i'm like ah this is my first book i'm illustrating and am i doing enough to make it like a good illustration by like filling out this part with like better landscape and trees but i think i think it can exist in this space in this fantasy world and that it's it's it's pretty in its simplicity i think i agree
Speaker: Yeah, I feel like we were talking about that with, like, the grass or something.
Speaker: I don't remember if I said that.
Speaker: There was something where we were like, I, like, liked the color of it.
Speaker: And you were like, yeah, looking at this color by itself, you would think it would be weird here.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But, yeah, but then it does draw our focus, but then you also have to trust, like, okay, is what I've done here in the important part, like, enough?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Which I feel like translates to everything in the arts.
Speaker: But it's intimidating.
Speaker: Because you're like, oh, I don't have a great magnum opus where they can look and find details that are spectacular.
Speaker: I just have to kind of trust that it's enough.
Speaker: Just let it be.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Interesting.
Speaker: I feel like we're both learning a similar lesson.
Speaker: No, this has been a lesson, a big lesson of my life and continues to be.
Speaker: Where in your life are you learning that?
Speaker: I think in my acting.
Speaker: Uh-huh.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Like, as we're talking, I'm thinking back to Hamlet.
Speaker: Who, to be fair, Shakespeare does... Take a drink, everyone.
Speaker: Take a drink.
Speaker: No, I'm fine with you mentioning Hamlet.
Speaker: It's just... I know.
Speaker: I do say it a lot.
Speaker: No, it's a lot there.
Speaker: It's like Hamlet, liturgy.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: What would it be?
Speaker: I feel like I need one more.
Speaker: Hamlet and liturgy and rhythm.
Speaker: I feel like I talk about rhythm a lot.
Speaker: I do?
Speaker: Like rhythms of life.
Speaker: I feel like I do.
Speaker: Oh, maybe.
Speaker: I think about it inwardly at least.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: If there is a quote from you, it would be, I'm having an abstract thought.
Speaker: That is true.
Speaker: Podcasts don't lend themselves well to abstract thoughts, though, because they can't just sit there while I silently pull the thought from the back.
Speaker: I have to just talk while it happens.
Speaker: You have to stall.
Speaker: I just, like, hit his knee terrifiedly.
Speaker: I'm like, Nate, Nate, Nate, stall.
Speaker: Stall for me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Hamlet, yes.
Speaker: Like I'm thinking back to Hamlet and I'm like, oh, I had so much in that character.
Speaker: Nobody probably saw half of it and it would be a lot more important for me to just show up on stage and just be available.
Speaker: Just be emotionally available and just let stuff happen.
Speaker: Without thinking about all this great stuff you produce inwardly.
Speaker: And I think that stuff still matters.
Speaker: Like, I don't think we should not do the background work as actors.
Speaker: Like, I think we need to know all that stuff.
Speaker: But then I also think we need to let it go.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Which I think I'm learning.
Speaker: I think the class helped.
Speaker: I think, uh, and I, I heard John Rhys-Davies say that in like talking about his part and that's what he does for acting.
Speaker: He does all the background work and then just kind of lets it go.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah, because the important thing is the other person.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The important thing is the other person.
Speaker: That's true in life, too.
Speaker: Because I think even in acting, you're like thinking about like, how am I doing right now?
Speaker: Like constantly for me.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: And it can be that way in life too.
Speaker: Like, how am I doing in my interaction with this person?
Speaker: Am I serving them well?
Speaker: And, and how, how am I looking and such like that?
Speaker: I'm hungry.
Speaker: What am I making for dinner?
Speaker: What am I eating after dinner?
Speaker: Could I steal that Camaro?
Speaker: I probably could.
Speaker: No, I feel like simplicity and presence maybe go together.
Speaker: Simplicity doesn't work well if you're not there and aware and intentional.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: Because it's a single focus.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But it also, I think simplicity helps you to be present.
Speaker: Like I've been thinking the last couple of days about just like, I feel like I can be a fairly obsessive person sometimes.
Speaker: Like I feel like I can lock into a thought or lock into an activity, like setting up this studio.
Speaker: Oh yeah.
Speaker: If you're listening.
Speaker: Why?
Speaker: No, turn us off.
Speaker: This is horrible.
Speaker: We set up a new studio in the corner.
Speaker: It was John, but he messaged me about it.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: Nate helped.
Speaker: I guess this is our break to explain the studio, and then I'll talk about true spots and stuff.
Speaker: We have art on the walls.
Speaker: So some of it you've seen before.
Speaker: Some of it is new.
Speaker: Like behind Nate is an art piece that I don't think...
Speaker: was ever in view.
Speaker: This was made by my lovely wife and I love it.
Speaker: That one right there, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I get to look at it during the podcast.
Speaker: It's really good.
Speaker: I love that piece.
Speaker: She made it when we were in Hunchback.
Speaker: She does.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I love this work that she does.
Speaker: And I think that's one of my favorites.
Speaker: For those who can't see, it's a canvas with a painting with like a starry sky to the left and then fades down with yellows and blues down to a firiness at the bottom and sewn into the painting is Notre Dame.
Speaker: That's really cool.
Speaker: And then we have my favorite droid in Star Wars.
Speaker: Oh, I bumped my mic.
Speaker: We have BD-1 right here to keep us company.
Speaker: Which one is he in again?
Speaker: He's in the video game.
Speaker: Oh, the video game.
Speaker: He's in Jedi Fallen Order and Jedi Survivor.
Speaker: He's so cute, Nate.
Speaker: Yeah?
Speaker: He's so cute.
Speaker: He looks cute.
Speaker: In the side here, he has little health packs, and he'll shoot them to you, and then you can grab him.
Speaker: And he just rides right on your shoulder.
Speaker: Oh, I think you've shown me that.
Speaker: He's just like a little puppy.
Speaker: He's so cute.
Speaker: Is that his size?
Speaker: Basically, yeah.
Speaker: This is basically one-to-one size.
Speaker: You should strap him to your shoulder for Halloween.
Speaker: That would be great.
Speaker: Oh, that would be a great Comic-Con costume.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, that would be fun.
Speaker: And he's poseable, so we can do that.
Speaker: We can make him look up.
Speaker: He's inquisitive.
Speaker: Maybe each episode will make him do a different pose.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That would be fun.
Speaker: Look out for that, folks.
Speaker: Come back.
Speaker: You want to watch the video so you can see what Pose BD1 is doing.
Speaker: So I was like, how did I get here?
Speaker: Yeah, I feel like I can obsess to a thing.
Speaker: And yesterday, I feel like I just latched onto I'm going to make the studio.
Speaker: And then it took over my entire day.
Speaker: And I'm like, what's happening in my brain?
Speaker: And so I'm starting to be like, that's just so complex.
Speaker: And not all of that matters.
Speaker: My brain's going to do a thousand different things.
Speaker: And that doesn't mean that it's reality or that I have to listen to it.
Speaker: I have a luxury that some people don't.
Speaker: I'm not depressed or anxious clinically, so it's not seeping into everything of me, but I can just be like, okay, my brain is doing all of this.
Speaker: I'm just going to be present.
Speaker: I'm not going to worry about the intrusive thoughts, the further layers of complexity and of me trying to investigate this.
Speaker: There's a place for that.
Speaker: They don't own you.
Speaker: You don't owe them.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so maybe this is an interesting idea that, um, does sometimes
Speaker: does either our art or our desire to be great or it could be both because i kind of think art has a life of its own to a degree i don't think it literally does but figuratively it sure does like it feels like the characters in my book just do whatever and i'm like what are you doing this surprises me frequently they'll just do a thing and i'm like well this just changes everything why did what um
Speaker: No, I feel like in my art, too, like, this is how it was meant to be.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I'm just kind of trying to make it that way.
Speaker: But I wonder if maybe sometimes there's value to us pulling a tighter leash on our art.
Speaker: To say, actually, this is all you need to be.
Speaker: Which also is probably putting a leash on our own ego and need for greatness and saying, no, I don't need to write the next Lord of the Rings.
Speaker: This is all this needs to be.
Speaker: Or I don't need to paint the next...
Speaker: I was going to say the Mona Lisa, but I think the Mona Lisa is just fine.
Speaker: I wanted to think of a better, what's a better piece of art?
Speaker: It's just mid.
Speaker: It's just a portrait of a lady.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Rembrandt.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: The next Rembrandt or the next Sunflowers, you know?
Speaker: You think that's better than Mona Lisa?
Speaker: Ha ha ha ha ha!
Speaker: Sidebar.
Speaker: I think I would.
Speaker: Well, I don't love still lifes, but I like the field of flowers that Van Gogh does.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Usually I'm going to like landscapes better than a portrait.
Speaker: Do you like seascapes?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: That's good.
Speaker: No, but that made me think of, I was talking with a coworker last night and was talking about the book that I'm working on illustrating.
Speaker: And she said that she has a friend who is writing a children's book and that my coworker is supposed to illustrate it, but this friend won't finish it.
Speaker: She's been working on it for 10 years.
Speaker: Oh my gosh.
Speaker: And it's just a little children's book.
Speaker: But apparently she's not like a creative normally.
Speaker: And it's just like so precious to her that she just can't finish it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So that can happen.
Speaker: It can.
Speaker: I relate to that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think...
Speaker: I think there's a risk too in the longer that you hold on to your art and don't send it out into the world.
Speaker: I think the more you're at risk of that.
Speaker: Like, I feel like I'm on the verge of that with my book.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Because I've had, and it needs more time.
Speaker: The prose is not there.
Speaker: I'm needing to learn more.
Speaker: It deserves more time, like just for the whole work of it.
Speaker: Because it's just not good yet.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I feel like it's on the way to good from what I've been hearing on feedback.
Speaker: But I feel like I can easily see how I could keep getting further and further and do like, well, there's this author that I love and this work is so beautiful and my work is not there yet.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And especially because the world of this book I've lived with for 10 years that I'm like, well, if I'm going to finally do it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Oh my gosh, Nate.
Speaker: What?
Speaker: What?
Speaker: The bonus stuff we were talking about is about to come into play.
Speaker: Oh, no, it is.
Speaker: Now you have to listen to the bonus stuff.
Speaker: Oh, my word.
Speaker: This is a video game that John's very interested in that is supposed to be released almost 10 years ago, and it has not yet.
Speaker: They just keep on making it better and better, but never release it.
Speaker: That's what this is about.
Speaker: And they've raised $700 million.
Speaker: We talked about that for 15 minutes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Nate's like, don't rush.
Speaker: Don't do it.
Speaker: But it's like that where it's like... We could be making a lot of money by not releasing our stuff.
Speaker: Let's not release this episode until it's perfect made.
Speaker: Oh!
Speaker: But, okay, no, that's a great example, though.
Speaker: This was recorded in 1998.
Speaker: We've been talking since then.
Speaker: Before I was born, Nate was an age.
Speaker: I don't remember how much older you are.
Speaker: I was six.
Speaker: That's one of my favorite John Van Dusen songs starts that way.
Speaker: Now you've got it stuck in my head.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: No, but like that game, it's supposed to be like a game about being in space and stuff.
Speaker: Go on.
Speaker: Now you're egging me on, Tarant.
Speaker: It's like a sci-fi... Think Star Wars or Star Trek, right?
Speaker: And so they're just trying to create that universe.
Speaker: What they've already made is so much better than most things on there.
Speaker: If they just polished it up and put it out there, it could be great.
Speaker: If they were just like, what we have is enough, it doesn't need to be everything.
Speaker: But either because it's been so long or because...
Speaker: There's a sense of like ego and greatness that they feel like or maybe because it's made so much money that they're like we owe something because there's there could be an obligation side.
Speaker: Yeah, too.
Speaker: I feel like of like my art has to be so good that it has to be worthy of all this money of all of this.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like like the flip side of ego, like an inferiority complex kind of thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That stops it from being put out there.
Speaker: And so there's which is, I think, a blessing that theater has of usually if you're doing a show, at least in the amateur world, it's different if you're like workshopping it or something like that.
Speaker: But it's like, okay, you have the date that you're opening that was set a year ago.
Speaker: So you've got until then and you've just got to figure it out, you know, or if you are already an established author, and you have like a deadline, it's like, well, you've got to get the book out at this point.
Speaker: But when you're your own master, that can really spiral.
Speaker: that's interesting that'd make it hard to be like a artist that you that didn't work for anybody yeah we need patrons back yeah yeah no yeah go ahead no you you were about to say something because i was about to change the subject
Speaker: No, I just want to kind of bring it back to everyday living kind of thing, too.
Speaker: Yeah, that's great.
Speaker: So when you're walking the dog.
Speaker: Just do it.
Speaker: Simply.
Speaker: Simply walk that dog.
Speaker: Left, right, left, right, left, right.
Speaker: If you're thinking about it, you're doing it wrong.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Stop thinking about which foot is going for.
Speaker: We know you're walking the dog while you're listening to this podcast.
Speaker: Listen, you who are driving right now, listening to this podcast, don't overthink your driving.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I thought our audience was just the walking the dog people.
Speaker: Nate alienates.
Speaker: That's 50% of it are car driving people and 50% are dog walking people.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Whichever category you land in.
Speaker: Sorry, I've derailed it for the sake of a joke.
Speaker: But what about... You must be perfect as my Heavenly Father is perfect.
Speaker: True, but we can't do that on our own strength.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: I feel like that's where presence and simplicity.
Speaker: I feel like humility is an undertone of this that we haven't named, but is there.
Speaker: Humility.
Speaker: We've named it now.
Speaker: Good job.
Speaker: I'm shaking your hand a lot.
Speaker: I'm shaking your hand too long.
Speaker: Captain America.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: I know you too.
Speaker: You're great.
Speaker: I like a little friendly formality and friendship.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Next time I'll salute you.
Speaker: Next time you make a really good point.
Speaker: That'd be great.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And all the audio people will miss it.
Speaker: Oh, my word.
Speaker: Humility.
Speaker: Humility.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I feel like we need to be willing.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Well, sometimes this was like a lesson I had to learn.
Speaker: I think a lot of times we can think like sanctification, the path to holiness is this really difficult thing.
Speaker: And it is, but it's not.
Speaker: We're thinking correctly, but it's, but we're not achieving it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: God is.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that's a crazy, simple concept.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Where God is like, Hey, if you're,
Speaker: if you're, it's in Romans, I'm forgetting the passage because it's been a minute since I really deep dive studied it.
Speaker: But it's like, you died to sin and now you are alive in Christ.
Speaker: So you are living in the spirit.
Speaker: So just give it up.
Speaker: And just say, just trust that God is going to do this.
Speaker: The flesh, which can try to do good and does not do as good as living in the spirit.
Speaker: Uh-oh, I need to talk.
Speaker: I think
Speaker: It looks like you had a thought.
Speaker: So I was like, I can buy time.
Speaker: My thought was like, oh no, I need to talk.
Speaker: See, no, I can, I can talk when I don't need to talk.
Speaker: Just like I can live well in the spirit when I'm not trying.
Speaker: Why aren't you looking this up?
Speaker: I'm talking.
Speaker: Quick, use this time while I still have a thought that's leaving.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: He's getting close.
Speaker: I just need to revert back to commentating.
Speaker: No, but he's like, you're a slave to righteousness.
Speaker: Like, it's like, there's no other choice we have almost.
Speaker: We've been set free from sin and are slaves to righteousness.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Sin shall no longer be your master because you're not under the law, but under grace.
Speaker: You're like living in that.
Speaker: And so it's this weird, simple thing to just open your hands and say, I'm trusting not just my justification and salvation to God.
Speaker: Future.
Speaker: And my like ability to be a good person I'm trusting to God.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And I'm going to believe that he's giving it to me.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And that's been.
Speaker: And that he loves you.
Speaker: Enough to do that.
Speaker: Enough to do that.
Speaker: And through the fumbles.
Speaker: Of which there will be.
Speaker: It's kind of like, I'm going to bring it back to the art.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: It's like acting.
Speaker: One of the things I tell people all the time is like, don't stop if you make a mistake when you're in rehearsal or something.
Speaker: Don't tell me that you did it wrong.
Speaker: Just make a note of it in that run.
Speaker: And next time, don't do that if you didn't like it.
Speaker: That was such a problem with me when I was playing piano growing up.
Speaker: If I'd make a mistake, I'd want to go back a couple notes, then do it right, and I'd just have a... That was the piano song.
Speaker: It didn't sound good.
Speaker: But to just be able to go through the foibles and trust God, it's a very simple concept.
Speaker: And it requires us to be present with him and humble and embrace our own limits and be simple people.
Speaker: What's that mean?
Speaker: To embrace our limits, to be simple people.
Speaker: Simple people.
Speaker: Like, I'm nothing greater than what God's grace gives me.
Speaker: Like, at the end of the day, all of my life boils down to what God's grace gives me.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: At the end of the day, that's what animates me.
Speaker: Not in a motivational way, in a literal, like,
Speaker: literal, spiritual, physical sense.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: We're dust.
Speaker: If he wasn't holding us together right now, we would dissipate.
Speaker: Quite literally.
Speaker: It's a grace each moment, each breath.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: See, and that's... I don't need to... I was about to veer towards the liturgy.
Speaker: I was like, Hamlet?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: The other drink.
Speaker: The drink of wine, the Eucharist.
Speaker: Which we all know is... The blood.
Speaker: But, no, there's even... Well, it is... It's such a simple thing.
Speaker: Say it.
Speaker: Eucharist.
Speaker: Communion.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Jesus said, whether you're taking it as like... I just read that today.
Speaker: That passage?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I think whether you're taking it as God wants me to take this moment to pause and think about his grace, or you think he is really present in this, or you think it literally becomes the body of Christ when it enters your mouth, regardless, I mean, that one's a little more complex, but Jesus did the most astronomical...
Speaker: thing that is incredibly complex has been studied for two thousands of years by theologians and what did he give Christian people as regulative practices as signs of that insane crazy thing
Speaker: If you're a Protestant.
Speaker: So any Catholic audience members may say there's more sacraments.
Speaker: And I think there's sacramental things in those.
Speaker: But anyway.
Speaker: But the two that Jesus gave us in Scripture that Jesus said that came directly from his mouth was...
Speaker: Go and baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Which is fairly simple.
Speaker: Despite the debates, it's a simple command.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then he gave us a meal to eat.
Speaker: That's nice.
Speaker: And that, like Christ came.
Speaker: Be clean, be fed.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And he said... And go on.
Speaker: In this meal...
Speaker: The words he said is, this is my body and this is my blood.
Speaker: It's such a simple thing, but it's also the most mysterious, crazy thing.
Speaker: And what do we do with that?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: It's crazy.
Speaker: But for me, it's this beautiful touch point of every week.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: You just accept it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And you eat it.
Speaker: And it nourishes you bodily and spiritually.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's so simple.
Speaker: And it's a reminder that Christ is always doing that.
Speaker: It's a touch point.
Speaker: If you believe he's present in that spiritually or physically, then it is a tangible touch point of Jesus is here.
Speaker: Even as he's always with me, it's so simple, but it's so complex.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think there's value probably to delving into the complex.
Speaker: Yes, absolutely.
Speaker: But at time in life, I think there's a lot of value of just accepting the simplicity.
Speaker: And the mystery.
Speaker: And the mystery.
Speaker: We're bringing another thing in.
Speaker: What?
Speaker: So if you're taking notes, simplicity, presence, humility, and then mystery.
Speaker: We need a vowel so it can spell something.
Speaker: Simplicity, presence, humility, mystery.
Speaker: So that's S-P-H-M.
Speaker: What can we spell with those?
Speaker: Nothing.
Speaker: There's no vowel.
Speaker: And awareness, maths.
Speaker: M-A-P-H-S, maths.
Speaker: So anyway, about simplicity.
Speaker: Hamps.
Speaker: That's better.
Speaker: If we get an E, it can be hampers.
Speaker: Hamps.
Speaker: Remember hampers.
Speaker: The key to art in the Christian life is hampers.
Speaker: You think on that.
Speaker: I'm going to talk.
Speaker: Eucharist.
Speaker: It's a little specific.
Speaker: That's a lot of letters.
Speaker: No, E could be Eucharist.
Speaker: Oh, I see what you're saying.
Speaker: That works.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I'll take it.
Speaker: Ampers.
Speaker: I'm like, you don't have to sell me on the Eucharist.
Speaker: I'm all there.
Speaker: But it's Jesus.
Speaker: Comment down below and have a crazy theological day.
Speaker: We need the engagement.
Speaker: We need the engagement.
Speaker: Get us more views.
Speaker: No, but there's, I think, and in art, I'm thinking about really simple works.
Speaker: They create mystery when there's things left out.
Speaker: And it's just there.
Speaker: And, yeah.
Speaker: As an actor, you bring yourself to the stage and it's simple and the audience doesn't see everything, but there's, there's mystery and it makes people want to know more and go deeper, which may reflect back on themselves or may drive them to something beneficial.
Speaker: Um, there's a mystery.
Speaker: that can surround simplicity, I think, because there is more.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: There is more.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That landscape that you've, the landscape you've created in the children's book, there's more to that world.
Speaker: There's some blades of grass that we're not seeing.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But like, I feel like there's this sort of,
Speaker: mysterious magicalness to that.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: It's a place.
Speaker: It's not all places.
Speaker: And like a black box show where it's like just the actors in some boxes.
Speaker: If it's done well, the imagination...
Speaker: runs wild with what we don't see.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And is drawn in by the mystery.
Speaker: And the imagination is drawn in in spiritual ways too, I think, in spiritual practices and things that are simple but full of deep, rich meaning.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: We weren't built to know everything.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Our brains don't have the capacity.
Speaker: We weren't meant to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.
Speaker: We were meant to eat from the tree of life, which Christ has renewed for us in the Eucharist, I think.
Speaker: Oh, not completely, but I think there's a connection.
Speaker: Now I'm going to get into a weird niche theological thing.
Speaker: I don't need to.
Speaker: Do I need to?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I feel like it piqued your interest.
Speaker: I'll tell you off the air.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then if people want to know, they can comment.
Speaker: I think you've told me, but I need a reminder.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I'll tell you off air.
Speaker: I'm like, I don't need to go.
Speaker: They're probably interested now.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: Now I've made a big deal.
Speaker: I always do this.
Speaker: I'm like, I start to say a thing and then I draw attention to the fact that I started to say a thing, but don't need to.
Speaker: And then people are like, what is it?
Speaker: What's the connection?
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: I'm going to streamline it.
Speaker: Theologically, in my theological framework from an Anglican perspective, I believe that Christ is really present in the Eucharist.
Speaker: And so he sustains us with his grace and offers us something of his life in the same way he sacrificed his life for us.
Speaker: So we are sustained by the life and grace of Christ.
Speaker: There is, it was the Bible Project podcast.
Speaker: I was listening to it with a friend and they were talking about the Tree of Life and they were talking about how, I don't remember where exactly they were, it was something in the language or the literary context, but they were like, it seems like
Speaker: this tree would be God giving life to Adam and Eve, to his people.
Speaker: And so the Eucharist, I don't think is like complete one-to-one analogy to that, but I think there's something, yeah.
Speaker: Or like a mid, like a, like a, like it sustains us for now sort of idea of like, right.
Speaker: There was this perfect tree and then we messed it up.
Speaker: We, we can't get that perfectly.
Speaker: Is there mention of that tree in heaven?
Speaker: Isn't there?
Speaker: I feel like maybe regardless, like we get resurrected bodies, we certainly receive like life from God, whether it's in the form of the tree of life, which I feel like it mentions, but I can't remember for sure, or if it's in another form.
Speaker: And so I think narratively, that's a really beautiful sort of.
Speaker: trajectory and cool connection point of tree of life.
Speaker: We leave it.
Speaker: Christ sacrifices himself and then reestablishes the very thing that he hoped for us to get in a sort of
Speaker: Faded is the only word.
Speaker: Tangible, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, tangible way that is not fully complete.
Speaker: It's already, but not yet.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like the kingdom of God.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That both looks back and gives us something of the grace of God and looks forward to the completion of that.
Speaker: Yeah, I was just reading Jesus said that he was very much looking forward to eating this meal with his disciples and that he would not eat of it again until he ate it with them in the kingdom.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So it was kind of in your framework kind of like a touch point there.
Speaker: It's like a prefiguring of that.
Speaker: It's a preview.
Speaker: It's a trailer.
Speaker: The Eucharist is a movie trailer for heaven.
Speaker: In a world where you can eat with Jesus.
Speaker: Somebody ate from the wrong tree.
Speaker: Ruined most everything.
Speaker: This feels like it's now, now I want it to just be a 90s comedy and it like smash cuts to James Franco as Adam.
Speaker: In New York City.
Speaker: Bet you wouldn't believe it, but I ruined everything for everybody.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: I wanted to talk about some times that simplicity is bad in art, but we've gone a really long time.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: Maybe we can do that later.
Speaker: This podcast is getting complex.
Speaker: It's a two-part on simplicity.
Speaker: Oh, no.
Speaker: We can't name it that.
Speaker: We can't do it.
Speaker: It's a complex podcast on simplicity.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: Hypocrites.
Speaker: Hypocrites.
Speaker: We'll revisit it another time.
Speaker: Because I would love to talk about that.
Speaker: I had like Marvel TV shows written down as things that did like simplicity draws it back into redundancy sometimes.
Speaker: Uh-huh.
Speaker: And not being rich.
Speaker: So I think we should talk about that sometime.
Speaker: And I'm sure that there's like visual art and different things where somebody tried to be simplistic.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Boring.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Or overdid it.
Speaker: And yeah.
Speaker: So we'll talk about that another time.
Speaker: So if you want to hear more of us talking way too long about simplicity.
Speaker: They loved it.
Speaker: They loved it.
Speaker: But yes, if you want to hear that conversation, if you want to hear other conversations, subscribe.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Or follow.
Speaker: We have an email newsletter that you can sign up for on our website.
Speaker: We will let you know when podcasts go out, whenever exciting things are happening with the organization.
Speaker: which some things will be coming out soon-ish.
Speaker: I don't know the exact time frame, but at some point in the coming months, some exciting announcements of what Artists of the Way is doing is going to come out.
Speaker: And if you want to like and share and leave a review... Leave a review.
Speaker: That helps...
Speaker: Algorithms.
Speaker: It does help the algorithm.
Speaker: It also helps me.
Speaker: It's been nice to read the couple times that there's been reviews.
Speaker: I'm like, oh, there is something that's being offered here.
Speaker: I know what we're doing well and what we're not doing well.
Speaker: I just joined the podcast.
Speaker: So now leave another review so I can read it.
Speaker: Right, because now it's different.
Speaker: And it's also the only way that we can reach new people is by people sharing it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because I only get so far by sharing to Facebook.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Social media, man.
Speaker: It sucks.
Speaker: People don't care.
Speaker: But share us on social media.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Let them trust your opinions.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Even if they don't trust ours.
Speaker: I'm biased.
Speaker: Of course you should listen to my podcast.
Speaker: It's amazing.
Speaker: I'm talking.
Speaker: Who doesn't want to hear me talk me?
Speaker: Now you have to listen to it twice because I have to edit it.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, what's there to edit?
Speaker: It was good.
Speaker: Well, the 20 minutes of preamble.
Speaker: Just a little cut and paste.
Speaker: Speaking of that 20 minutes of preamble, you can listen to it in a minute if you want to.
Speaker: Now.
Speaker: Now.
Speaker: Thank you guys so much for joining.
Speaker: We so appreciate you guys tuning in every couple of weeks.
Speaker: That's nice.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Blessings.
Speaker: Have a great couple of weeks.
Speaker: Thank you guys.
Speaker: Enjoy walking simply with God, knowing that he is simply walking with you as your shepherd right beside you.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Welp.
Speaker: Welp-um.
Speaker: Welp-um?
Speaker: Welp-um to our show of the way.
Speaker: Did you see the joystick I have now?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Oh my gosh, dude, this is... I'll show you after the podcast.
Speaker: We're friends after the podcast.
Speaker: Is it a flying game?
Speaker: It can be for flying games.
Speaker: It's not for any game in particular, but that's... Well, now I'm just telling you.
Speaker: But yeah, it's... I use it specifically for like space games.
Speaker: Flying in space.
Speaker: There's like Star Wars Battlefront 2.
Speaker: You can play on the ground and in space.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: When I'm in space, I'll break that out.
Speaker: And I've got like a space sim game that I've been playing recently, which is fine, but it scratches an itch.
Speaker: I love space sim games.
Speaker: I wish that they were more popular.
Speaker: What is that?
Speaker: Or bigger.
Speaker: It's like, they're like, let's try and emulate like Star Trek or something like that.
Speaker: Or like that kind of vibe.
Speaker: Is it where it keeps generating more and more planets kind of thing?
Speaker: Depends on the way you do it.
Speaker: So there was, when I was 15,
Speaker: 15 14 or 15 something like that there were several big games that were like we're going to be the next big space sim game and we're going to be first person and you're going to get to do all these things and they were no man's sky elite dangerous and star citizen okay and they were all taking a slightly different approach where elite dangerous was like we're like a space combat oriented game yeah um so you're like a soldier and
Speaker: You're fighting each other.
Speaker: You can explore the galaxy.
Speaker: You can do trading if you want.
Speaker: But it's like we're first person.
Speaker: You're inside your ship and it's first person.
Speaker: And you can fly around and stuff.
Speaker: But we're trying to have really good combat.
Speaker: And then No Man's Sky was like, we're just trying to make Minecraft but in space and 3D.
Speaker: So it's very whimsical.
Speaker: But they like, that's a crazy story.
Speaker: Because they initially overpromised.
Speaker: They were a very small game studio that had only done mobile games.
Speaker: And then they announced this game and it looked really good.
Speaker: And then they started saying more and more things about it that were not really true.
Speaker: Like that it was going to be multiplayer.
Speaker: And it was not multiplayer at all.
Speaker: That's different.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: But incredibly, since that launched...
Speaker: Their team doubled down and was like, okay, we need to make this what we promised.
Speaker: Really?
Speaker: And they've added that all for free.
Speaker: No paid DLC or anything.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: It's incredible.
Speaker: And now it's a great game.
Speaker: I don't love it just because...
Speaker: just because it's great but i don't like it i own it i've played a little bit but just the style of it is not what i want from like a space game okay and then there's star citizen which is my pie in the sky what i wanted it's not i don't think it's ever going to come out it's raised oh it's not happened yet well it's complicated have you ever heard descent
Speaker: This was back in when I was a little kid.
Speaker: It was a computer game.
Speaker: And it involved flying in a spaceship type thing.
Speaker: I don't think you're usually in space.
Speaker: You're probably usually on a planet.
Speaker: I can see it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh yeah.
Speaker: I think we played like descent two and three.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And yeah, it was pretty sweet.
Speaker: And we had a, we had a joystick for that.
Speaker: And it's really, so those are so cool.
Speaker: That's kind of the vibe, but now imagine you can like get out of your ship.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: walk around in the world and like pick a job that you want to do.
Speaker: It just keeps sounding more and more boring.
Speaker: Imagine you could then do your taxes.
Speaker: I once spent an entire hour of my life just doing chores in Red Dead Redemption 2.
Speaker: What kind of chores?
Speaker: Shoveling cow poop.
Speaker: Raking...
Speaker: the hay out of their stables, the horse's stables, grooming my horse, carrying some feet across the yard.
Speaker: Did you enjoy that?
Speaker: I did.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: If I ever played GTA, which I technically have played the online version with Sam, but if I ever played it, I would probably frequently take taxi rides.
Speaker: Because I think it's kind of fun.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's like all this like crazy stuff going on around you.
Speaker: And then the music slows down to like elevator music.
Speaker: You in a taxi.
Speaker: To see a car flying overhead.
Speaker: Players shooting police officers.
Speaker: Sitting pleasantly and saying like to the driver.
Speaker: So how's your day?
Speaker: How long have you been in this country?
Speaker: But I have always been fascinated with games that can emulate your living a life type vibe.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So the idea of being able to go to space and just try my darndest to be a bounty hunter and probably not do it very well.
Speaker: And end up having to do some trading along the way.
Speaker: And then maybe there's other players out there and they're pirates.
Speaker: So I could go try and capture him and then bring him into my ship.
Speaker: And then I have to physically drag him into my ship.
Speaker: But like in a video game, so digitally, physically drag him into my ship and try and lock him up and fly and do all of this and not skip anything.
Speaker: No load screens.
Speaker: I'm like, that sounds fascinating.
Speaker: especially in like a space game context yeah it's like i'll never experience that you know so star citizen is like its goal was to be like that like a persistent universe with an in-game economy that could shift and change based on what players did and like different like factions so you could really like impact the world and make choices and
Speaker: But then they were like, we have to build our own engine, which is like the thing the game runs on.
Speaker: So they're like, we're going to build our own engine because we're trying to build this all so that it's always, always running.
Speaker: There's no load screens.
Speaker: It's not separated into different things.
Speaker: Does that mean it needed its own console?
Speaker: Console?
Speaker: console no it wouldn't need its own console so the engine is like the system like a program that the game runs on that you like build the game in oh oh oh right right right yeah so they need to build one of those that can handle what they're trying to do so they have raised guess how much money okay um 17 million more it's been going since 2015
Speaker: Oh, and it hasn't happened yet?
Speaker: You can play some of it.
Speaker: What they've done is they've released some modules.
Speaker: So there is a solar system you can play in, but it's technically considered an alpha stage.
Speaker: What's an alpha stage?
Speaker: The first stage of a video game.
Speaker: There's alpha and then beta is right before it comes out.
Speaker: Is it 34 million?
Speaker: It's a lot more.
Speaker: 117 million?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: A lot more.
Speaker: Oh!
Speaker: What?
Speaker: $392 million?
Speaker: A lot more.
Speaker: What?
Speaker: A billion?
Speaker: A lot more.
Speaker: No!
Speaker: What are they doing?
Speaker: Why can't the money make it happen?
Speaker: I'm pretty sure.
Speaker: $5.6 billion and a couple cents.
Speaker: Oh, no, I was wrong.
Speaker: You went up to billion.
Speaker: You were right.
Speaker: Go back down.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Wait, is it more or less than billion?
Speaker: It's less than a billion.
Speaker: Oh, well.
Speaker: Okay, 749 million.
Speaker: Close, 700 million.
Speaker: Oh, see?
Speaker: Wow!
Speaker: It'd be a really high-grossing movie if it did that.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: So the way they monetize it is one of their big selling points is their ships.
Speaker: The ships are so cool, dude.
Speaker: And you can go inside and walk around all of them.
Speaker: Some of them you can fly with your friends.
Speaker: They all fly a little different.
Speaker: If you wanted to, you could set course on your ship and then go into another room and sleep in a bed.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: But all of the ships cost real world money.
Speaker: Oh, really?
Speaker: And the cheapest ship is $40.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: The most, hang on.
Speaker: Man, why do people keep on giving them money in like a Kickstarter sort of way?
Speaker: Do they need it?
Speaker: They do need it because they have staff that they pay.
Speaker: They're a whole company that are doing this and are crowdfunding it.
Speaker: So they do need to be able to pay their staff.
Speaker: How big is this company?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: And they are also developing a lot of tech.
Speaker: There's some people that say it's a scam, and I don't think it's a scam because they are doing stuff.
Speaker: I just think it's been so successful that now they're kind of like, we don't need to release the game yet.
Speaker: People are still buying ships and paying money.
Speaker: So let's just make this everything that it could possibly be to the ultimate degree.
Speaker: So, I'm seeing what the most expensive ship is.
Speaker: Do they have... Do they have they said?
Speaker: It's going to release in 2026.
Speaker: The original release date was 2016, 2017.
Speaker: And it's just been bumped back and back.
Speaker: There's also...
Speaker: A single player campaign that's supposed to come out starring Henry Cavill, Gary Oldman, Mark Hamill.
Speaker: What?
Speaker: Just so many big names.
Speaker: Oh, my.
Speaker: As of 2023, I think there's a more expensive ship now.
Speaker: But as of 2023, the most expensive ship package was $48,000.
Speaker: my word yeah i think it's egregious this might be a scam or just or just their consumers are well they're yeah there's a lot of rich and nerds who will like just play video games which i could i feel like if i were not if i didn't care about the arts and i had unlimited amounts of wealth
Speaker: I'd be like, this sounds awesome.
Speaker: I could pour my life into this.
Speaker: And it has a solid community from everything that I've heard, like in the game.
Speaker: A lot of games have really toxic communities.
Speaker: A lot of very hopeful people.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: So it's nice.
Speaker: If you're really depressed, which maybe you are if you're just a gamer who stays inside all day, then you go and they're all like, it's okay, man.
Speaker: There's hope.
Speaker: There's a God.
Speaker: Star Citizen will come out in two years.
Speaker: Someday.
Speaker: Someday this will be a full game and not an alpha.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: I don't know if any of this is going to be in the podcast, but it's 13 minutes that we have recorded on Star Citizen now that none of our audience will.
Speaker: They might not care.
Speaker: I don't think they'll care at all.
Speaker: we'll listen to this playback.
Speaker: Maybe I'll put it as like a little bonus at the end.
Speaker: Be like, if you care about John's feelings and the things that John cares about.
Speaker: Well, I, we could continue that.
Speaker: Cause I'm like, there's been sometimes when a video game has like captured me and it's just like, Oh, this experience that I had within the game is something, but I, I've not had that for like years though.
Speaker: For the most part.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: No, I guess I get it.
Speaker: So I don't know if I have a real question because it's definitely a thing.
Speaker: It just couldn't really draw you in.
Speaker: Just that's not currently an interest to me.
Speaker: I think I've noticed it be less of one as I've gotten older.
Speaker: I don't think that's the case for everybody.
Speaker: But usually now what draws me into a game is the narrative if I care about the characters.
Speaker: There's gameplay where it's like I really enjoy playing this game.
Speaker: But I don't think...
Speaker: I'll get sucked into strategy games too, but then there's a narrative in my brain.
Speaker: Like I have a game called Crusader Kings 3 where it's like a, um, it's, do you know the civilization games?
Speaker: I've heard.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: They're like turn-based, like,
Speaker: zoomed out strategy games oh yeah you run like a kingdom right right and you make like red alert political decisions yeah but like zoomed out so on like a country like a worldwide level like you are france and you're working with you're doing politics with all these people shall we kill thee uh uh
Speaker: My brain's like, I can't say any people group.
Speaker: Or I'm saying we should kill a people group.
Speaker: But it's like that, but it's in real time.
Speaker: So you're like, and you will like, you get to like make your king.
Speaker: And then when your king dies, he plays his heir and you keep going.
Speaker: You can like go from like being like a count all the way up to an emperor.
Speaker: And so I started playing as Denmark because Hamlet.
Speaker: And I was like, let's see if I can recreate Hamlet.
Speaker: And I did.
Speaker: But then Hamlet lived.
Speaker: And I was like, yay, this is best.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: And then I created the Empire of Denmark because I went and conquered Norway.
Speaker: So did you have some of the story points from Hamlet?
Speaker: I did.
Speaker: I don't know how I pulled it together.
Speaker: Did you kill your uncle?
Speaker: It was my... I think it was my...
Speaker: I think one of my sons I had disinherited and he was like not a great guy.
Speaker: And then I died.
Speaker: Oh, you're the uncle.
Speaker: No, I was like their dad.
Speaker: And then I think I played as my grandson, but my uncle became... It was confusing, but somehow I had contrived it so that... Oh, no, I remember what happened.
Speaker: So the like murder part happened while their like dad was alive.
Speaker: So I was like the king and then my one son murdered my other son.
Speaker: And then I played as the dead son's nephew and got revenge on the uncle who had killed him after the grandfather died.
Speaker: So there was like a grandfather figure that wasn't in Hamlet, but I basically did Hamlet.
Speaker: Could have been.
Speaker: There could have been a grandpa.
Speaker: But then I created the Empire of Denmark, and I was very invested in the Empire of Denmark.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Because I was like, we beat Sweden.
Speaker: We beat Norway.
Speaker: We're working on these tribes to the right here.
Speaker: Everything's great.
Speaker: I want to start conquering the Holy Roman Empire next.
Speaker: Oh, is that when we are?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: We're like in the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire era.
Speaker: So they're like waiting.
Speaker: And so I was like, I was like, let's make a really holy like empire in Denmark.
Speaker: And then let's use that to conquer.
Speaker: We are more holy.
Speaker: So we're more deserving of the Holy Empire.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So we will be the Holy Empire of Denmark.
Speaker: And we will take over the Holy Roman Empire.
Speaker: It'll be holy yours.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: But then the, um, the like Denmark, we're taking your land now.
Speaker: But then the Mongols came up and they were terrifying.
Speaker: They took up so much land.
Speaker: But so that like had a story in my brain that was like constructed.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: So that drew me in.
Speaker: But I don't feel like I get like addictedly drawn into games right now unless I'm into the story and I'm like, I need to know what happens next.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I feel like I should start the actual episode now.
Speaker: Let's do it.
Speaker: And this will all be bonus.
Speaker: I'll be like, do you want a bonus 20 minutes of John and Nate talking about video games?
Speaker: And you won't care about 13 minutes of it because it's John talking about Star Citizen and Space Sims.
Speaker: Yeah, at the end of the episode, we'll have to say...
Speaker: You don't have to keep listening.
Speaker: They'll be like, why is this an hour and a half long episode so exciting?
Speaker: Well, 20 minutes is me telling you about a game that raised $700 million and promised me that I could be a bounty hunter.
Speaker: And then it didn't give that to me.
Speaker: I mean, I never gave them any money.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But they promised the world and you're part of that.
Speaker: I am part of the world.
Speaker: Because we're part of it.
Speaker: We're part of this world.
Speaker: Aren't you?
Speaker: Aren't you?
Speaker: Oh, goodness.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Groating rings of power.
Speaker: Doesn't happen often.
Speaker: I quoted Lord of the Rings.
Speaker: When is that in Rings of Power?
Speaker: Oh, is that a hobbit lady?
Speaker: I think so.
Speaker: I was quoting a different hobbit.
Speaker: I thought I was quoting Lord of the Rings.
Speaker: Where is it in Lord of the Rings?
Speaker: Yeah, when Mary's talking to Treebeard.
Speaker: And they're like, we cannot stop this world.
Speaker: Oh, maybe that was what I was quoting.
Speaker: But you're part of this world, aren't you?
Speaker: I feel like Hobbit Girl from...
Speaker: I feel like Hobbit Girl from Rings of Power said something like that too.
Speaker: I wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker: They're like, let's get... Where are the rings when I'm just listening?
