Transcript
Speaker: Hey friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John, the host.
Speaker: It is just me today.
Speaker: Things are a little bit behind with Godspell, like life stuff, not that Godspell's behind.
Speaker: Don't panic, it's fine.
Speaker: So just me today, but I wanted to do an episode because I realized that in the chaos of everything, the one-year anniversary just completely snuck me by.
Speaker: So that's exciting.
Speaker: Happy one-year anniversary to the podcast.
Speaker: Um, I'm, I'm so excited about that legitimately.
Speaker: Um, when I was first looking at starting the podcast, I looked at just so many, I, I did so much research.
Speaker: I over-researched things.
Speaker: Um, and most, there's a lot of podcasts today.
Speaker: That's how podcasts are.
Speaker: It's, it's in the zeitgeist right now.
Speaker: Um, but most of them tend to shut down at six months.
Speaker: If you make it past six months, um,
Speaker: uh then you have you've made it out of the average like the batting average or whatever for podcasts so the fact that we made it a year i'm really excited um and i want to say a huge thank you to you guys as well for listening there's like this small but strong audience that tunes in every episode and i'm so grateful for that um it's it's just a real blessing to be able to do this and have wanted to do it for a while and
Speaker: do it and have some people that care and listen and, you know, put in an effort to listen every week.
Speaker: Like that just means so much to me.
Speaker: So I'm glad we get to keep doing this.
Speaker: It's been a really fun year.
Speaker: I've had a lot of really wonderful discussions.
Speaker: I'm really excited for the next year and wherever God is taking artists of the way.
Speaker: So, yeah, that's our little celebratory thing.
Speaker: Shoot off your party poppers at home.
Speaker: I don't have any with me, so I can't help.
Speaker: But I almost made the, like, noise, but that would just probably hurt your ears.
Speaker: I wanted to just chat with you guys a little bit about...
Speaker: couple things.
Speaker: I'm working on Godspell.
Speaker: That's kind of the main thing that's, you know, the focus right now.
Speaker: And so I'm just unpacking some things with that and unpacking some things in just in my personal life.
Speaker: And through all of that, the theme of loving God has come up a lot recently.
Speaker: So I just wanted to kind of process some thoughts about that and ask you guys a little bit about that at the end of the episode.
Speaker: It's, it's just been a question on my mind recently, because I feel like I'm very busy.
Speaker: And when I don't know if this is just a me thing, or if it's an everybody thing.
Speaker: But when I get really busy, my relationship with God tends to be go through the motions.
Speaker: And it's kind of, it's almost like it's, I don't want to say it's on life support, because that's a, that's a
Speaker: That sounds like a dangerous way to put it.
Speaker: No, maybe it is dangerous.
Speaker: I don't think so.
Speaker: I don't think what I'm describing is necessarily dangerous.
Speaker: But it's like I'm putting in the effort and things, but it's not like you're necessarily feeling amazing, you know, or I would point to it as like being a peak time in my relationship with God as far as my experience of it, right?
Speaker: Like it seems fairly normal and mundane is a great word for it.
Speaker: You know, I go to church every Sunday, and that's always great.
Speaker: And I hear stuff in sermons that, you know, are meaningful, that are applicable to me.
Speaker: It seems like God is speaking to me or is leading me.
Speaker: His hand is very evidently there, but it just is kind of very mundane sort of vibe.
Speaker: And I think that sometimes...
Speaker: You know, we have a fear of going through the motions and not actually having our heart in it.
Speaker: I think by nature of even just having that fear probably means you're not doing that.
Speaker: Or, well, I shouldn't say that, but I mean, it's a good check to have that.
Speaker: And so having that check probably means you care about the relationship to some degree.
Speaker: You're not just doing it to like do lip service to it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I haven't necessarily thought that that's been an unhealthy thing, but just as I've been watching this fantastic cast put on this show, seriously, one of the best casts I've ever worked with and best crews I've ever worked with, I'm just flabbergasted.
Speaker: It's just brought me back to the idea of...
Speaker: getting back to the basics, I guess, in my relationship with God for the purpose of loving him.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: A lot of times, and I think rightfully so, we talk about God's love for us.
Speaker: And that's true.
Speaker: But I think if we only focus on what we're receiving from God, never think about what are we giving to God, that can become an imbalanced relationship.
Speaker: And I wonder if we have that tendency today, because I think a lot of us are discovering, I've at least been discovering, I think healthily so, that we need a balance of receiving things and putting things out.
Speaker: And I've tended to view the pipeline as God's putting things.
Speaker: I'm receiving things from God, and then I'm kind of going out and doing things for others, which is also kind of doing things for God.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: Worship is all about loving God.
Speaker: Really, ideally, everything that we do, we should be motivated, yes, by God's love for us, but then also by our loving response to our loving, powerful God, right?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So I've just been pondering that.
Speaker: I had some more thoughts.
Speaker: I'm going to look at my notepad because now I've had an awkward silence.
Speaker: I just wonder, what am I doing in my life right now that is actively loving God?
Speaker: And how do we actively love him?
Speaker: And why do we love him?
Speaker: And what are those things we need to reconnect to?
Speaker: So I've just kind of, over the last couple weeks...
Speaker: as I've been watching Godspell, as we've been reading through scriptures at Mass, I've been trying to think about, okay, why do I love God?
Speaker: And kind of recapture that relationship.
Speaker: And I think every sort of faith walk probably has to do that at some point.
Speaker: Because every, and we talked about this on the podcast before too, but every single sort of
Speaker: way you can live out being Christian has its trappings of religiosity.
Speaker: I don't think religiosity is necessarily a bad thing.
Speaker: Like, I don't think your faith having a thing that looks like religion from the outside is necessarily bad because there can be really good reasons for why you've decided to do that practice, right?
Speaker: But...
Speaker: when you get so wrapped up in that that you forget the relationship, that's not good.
Speaker: And I am probably speaking to the choir here with my listeners, but I think that that can happen regardless of what you're doing.
Speaker: I think even if you're like, if you're ultra charismatic or ultra non-denominational or really trying to strip things down to the basics, there's still some kind of thing that you can get stuck into and that can lose its shine.
Speaker: And I think the issue with that is when our eyes are so focused on the way that we do our faith as opposed to the one our faith is about, right?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Not to say that the way that we do our faith is not important.
Speaker: It certainly is.
Speaker: I've found a lot of great joy in the Anglican tradition as I've now stepped into that.
Speaker: I've talked about that on the podcast.
Speaker: And I know a lot of people for whom their tradition of Christianity, their denomination, the way that they worship God, that is important for how God speaks to them.
Speaker: But that should never become the thing that you're holding on to.
Speaker: And if you get too locked into that, then you can start forgetting about, okay, how am I actively loving God?
Speaker: Instead, you're just going there, you're doing the motions, maybe receiving something from God, hoping to receive something from God.
Speaker: But
Speaker: There's still the importance of you putting out love.
Speaker: It's kind of like, again, many of my listeners who are older than me are going to be like, well, yes, John, we've learned all this.
Speaker: The thing I'm about to say.
Speaker: But in my marriage, a lot of times I need to remind myself that
Speaker: I need to put in the hard work to love my wife, even if I feel like I need to receive something from her.
Speaker: And usually when I'm putting something out, I get something back.
Speaker: And I don't think that that's in a transactional sort of way.
Speaker: I think that is, I am making the effort to make connection.
Speaker: And so connection forms.
Speaker: God is all powerful and can certainly make a connection with us however he wants to.
Speaker: He's God.
Speaker: He can do that.
Speaker: But we still need to think about what are the things that we're doing actively to connect to God, to love him.
Speaker: Because while he does not need our love to be complete, we need to love him.
Speaker: That is when we are complete.
Speaker: Not just when we're able to rest and receive from God, but also when we're able to express to him our love.
Speaker: And that does not solely have to take the form of worship necessarily.
Speaker: It can be...
Speaker: a broad array of things.
Speaker: It can be the way that you sit and listen to a friend.
Speaker: It can be the way you pay for somebody's coffee.
Speaker: It can be the thing that you create that you offer up to him.
Speaker: It can be not getting angry on your drive to work, talking to myself and, you know, walking out a sort of peaceful Christ-like attitude as you drive.
Speaker: There's a lot of ways to love.
Speaker: God.
Speaker: So I wanted to kind of explore that in art, which I think is going to take us back a little bit to our first conversation that we had way back in the first episode about being a faithful artist, right?
Speaker: Which I think is appropriate on this one year anniversary, late one year anniversary thing.
Speaker: The thing that separates an artist who's a Christian from an artist who's not is not what they're saying in their art, but it's who their art is for.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: It was, I think, oh, I don't remember when this happened now.
Speaker: At some point in the history of art, I believe it was in like the 1800s, but that date might be completely wrong.
Speaker: The term art for art's sake came out.
Speaker: I believe if you watch a movie with the MGM logo, with the lion roaring and it has like the ribbons around it, it has in Latin on those ribbons, art for art's sake.
Speaker: Um...
Speaker: up until that point art had been like oh you know we're doing this we're painting a biblical scene or we're painting a historical scene uh where okay so it was probably earlier than the 1800s thinking about the history of art but but it was as if art had a purpose or a function it served something else um was sort of what was in the air maybe not
Speaker: how art actually ended up being, but that was sort of the rhetoric.
Speaker: So this phrase, art for art's sake, started to be born to say, no, creating something just for the sake of creating and having it be out there is enough.
Speaker: But for the Christian, I don't think that that's enough.
Speaker: That's a strong way to put that, but
Speaker: Just as I would say, anything that you're doing in your own life should not be for your own sake.
Speaker: And I am preaching to myself as well because I need to hear this too.
Speaker: Everything that we do in life, when you have dedicated your life to Christ and you've said, I love you, I accept this gift, and I believe you're my savior, our life is
Speaker: comes from Christ, comes from God, and is now redirected in a heavenly direction.
Speaker: Every single action that we take.
Speaker: big or small.
Speaker: That's not to put a huge amount of pressure on it.
Speaker: That's just the reality of being a Christian.
Speaker: I am at all times as somebody who is a Christian, part of this priesthood of believers, where everything that I do is a witness, either to the world or to my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Speaker: That's just the way that it is.
Speaker: So
Speaker: Just as art is not just art for its own sake, it's art for God, you know, drinking coffee with a friend is to God.
Speaker: That's a scripture.
Speaker: I'm just, I'm circling my way over to scripture.
Speaker: See, usually half the things that I say could just be said way better if I just pointed you to scripture.
Speaker: But do everything is unto the Lord, not unto men, right?
Speaker: I don't remember which epistle that's in, but it's Paul.
Speaker: I remember that much.
Speaker: So we as artists need to be making decisions about our art, about the relationships within that art, about how we create that art based on what's most loving to our creator.
Speaker: When we do that, there's such a beautiful opportunity in there for our relationship with God to deepen and grow.
Speaker: Art at its absolute worst is self-serving.
Speaker: I 100% believe that.
Speaker: That is not to say you can't pursue a cool project that you want to do.
Speaker: That's not to say you can't do something that you know will be edifying to yourself.
Speaker: But if it is solely for your own vanity and edification and exaltation,
Speaker: then it's not good enough.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: And I think we, I think that bears itself out in the rest of the world outside of just being a Christian in art.
Speaker: Because vanity projects are, you know, is usually a negative term for a reason because it's somebody that's like, I want to make this ginormous, crazy thing that is personal to me.
Speaker: Personal is the wrong word.
Speaker: That is for me.
Speaker: It's my thing.
Speaker: I'm doing it for myself only.
Speaker: Usually that's not as good as somebody who says, I have this story that's really important that I want to share with other people.
Speaker: There's a movie coming out called Megalopolis by Francis Ford Coppola, who's like a huge director.
Speaker: If you don't know him, he did the Godfather movies.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: He's Nicolas Cage's uncle.
Speaker: He's done a lot.
Speaker: He's like one of the Hollywood greats from years past, and I totally thought he was dead, but he's not.
Speaker: He has a movie coming out called Megalopolis, which he, I think, sold his farm to fund.
Speaker: And it's his passion project that he's been trying to do for 20 years for himself.
Speaker: But reviews are coming out and it's like, this is the most bewildering, crazy fever dream movie ever and not in a good way, which is a shame because this is such a great Hollywood director.
Speaker: And that's not to discourage passion projects, but there's a question of who is it for, right?
Speaker: And that can just be a very practical question as an artist.
Speaker: I've had to ask that with Godspell.
Speaker: What's kind of the main audience that I'm reaching out to with that?
Speaker: That's a question anybody, when you get into the business side of things, you have to figure out, okay, who's my audience for, which is my least favorite question, but you have to think about that, right?
Speaker: Our audience is always God.
Speaker: Every single thing that we do as an artist needs to be for God.
Speaker: And it is, it's not because he's a slave master, but it is because
Speaker: Our lives as Christian people are completely unintelligible outside of the work of Christ.
Speaker: If Christ is not present in our lives, if Christ hasn't saved us, we have no life, no life at all.
Speaker: And if you are disconnecting from that, when I disconnect from that, my life becomes so much less.
Speaker: So, A,
Speaker: If he is truly the source from which our entire lives proceed, not just in the sense of we've been created, but even in the sense of his sovereignty orders our steps and he's the one that blesses us and his grace is the thing that saves us and animates us and moves through us.
Speaker: Then the only right response is to offer him everything.
Speaker: Every single thing in our lives ought to be offered up to him.
Speaker: That's the true and proper worship, which I think is another scripture thing.
Speaker: It might be a prayer book thing.
Speaker: I'm pretty sure it's the Bible though.
Speaker: We ought to offer that up to him.
Speaker: And then secondly,
Speaker: collaborating with God in some sense, even in just an offering of the art, it's just the most beautiful way to make art and will create the most beautiful art.
Speaker: I, I've told this story on the podcast.
Speaker: I don't know if I've told this story on the podcast.
Speaker: I might have told it before.
Speaker: If I have, I'm sorry, you can skip like three minutes ahead.
Speaker: When I did the singer, I played this character that was basically me and mirrored perfectly my relationship with God.
Speaker: And I just reached a point of breaking down one day in a rehearsal, which worked because I was crying.
Speaker: So nobody knew that I was having a breakdown.
Speaker: Actually, I think Shay did because she's, you know, she was going to be my wife.
Speaker: God just gave her that special sense early, I guess.
Speaker: So she could tell I was having a breakdown.
Speaker: But I was just like, Lord, I'm just trying so hard.
Speaker: to just create this great thing to, to give you.
Speaker: And he was like, no, John, I want to make this with you.
Speaker: And I, that's one of the few times I feel like I've not audibly heard, but like known, okay, God was saying this to me ever since then.
Speaker: pretty much every project I've done has had God in mind, even ones that would not necessarily connect to him.
Speaker: It's like he's become my muse.
Speaker: But in that, the art has become so much richer and more powerful and more rewarding for me.
Speaker: God, all God wants is a relationship with us.
Speaker: And
Speaker: We know that.
Speaker: I know that.
Speaker: But sometimes we forget.
Speaker: And it's not to say things that go beyond the simplicity of a relationship with a loving God are bad.
Speaker: I don't think that they are.
Speaker: Because this faith is so important and so all-encompassing.
Speaker: There's so much that we can continue to learn.
Speaker: And there's so many ways we can worship.
Speaker: And there's
Speaker: so much mystery and depth to a relationship with God and to an understanding of ourselves as his people.
Speaker: You know, I don't think added things are bad at all, but we always need reminders that the core thing is the relationship with God because things get in the way and not even just
Speaker: I keep coming back to rituals because I think I keep thinking people are going to hear and be like, oh, so we're saying, you know, cut that stuff out.
Speaker: That's not what I'm saying.
Speaker: I'm saying, what is it in life that's making you scared to go to God?
Speaker: That's making me scared to go to God or making you feel like you can't or don't have time?
Speaker: Is it as simple as just, you know, this is me thinking out loud for myself, but just burnout and feeling like,
Speaker: Is the thing that I want to do right now really go and exert some energy to pray?
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Would I rather just sit and read a book or play a video game or watch a movie?
Speaker: A lot of times...
Speaker: Choosing the thing that sounds more difficult in the moment, I'm learning, is a better way to rest and a better way to receive life, especially if that difficult thing is spending time with the person who knows and loves us more than anybody.
Speaker: And then if those things that are in the way are hurts from the church or questions about God's character,
Speaker: Bring that to him.
Speaker: I think this is kind of a good epilogue to that little mini-series we did a couple weeks ago, too, with the church and artists.
Speaker: There are so many people for whom what they've experienced in the church and from other Christians now prevents them from having a relationship with God, having one where he is the penultimate thing in their life.
Speaker: And yes, there is really valid questions to be had around God.
Speaker: Why do bad things happen?
Speaker: Why are there two horrible wars happening right now with lots of death?
Speaker: Why is everything as messed up as it is?
Speaker: Why is that one situation in your personal life happening or the bad thing to that friend who never did anything wrong?
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: And so much more.
Speaker: There are
Speaker: So many countless ways in which we can point at something and say, God, that's not good enough.
Speaker: But he is good.
Speaker: He is the loving father.
Speaker: We have a relationship with him not to get comfort, not to just control things, not to just have a structure, not to do the right thing.
Speaker: It's because it is the only way in which life can be received.
Speaker: Peter, in one of my favorite sentences in all of scripture,
Speaker: In John, several disciples, not of the like famous 12, like the broader group of disciples that are following Jesus go away.
Speaker: And Jesus asks his 12 if they're going to leave.
Speaker: And Peter says, to whom can we go?
Speaker: You have the words of eternal life.
Speaker: The very words of God fill us with life.
Speaker: So bring that brokenness and that hurt and those questions and that thing that you're working on, bring it all to him because he'll fill it with life and joy and truth in his timing, which will be best, which I just had to learn recently again after feeling like, God, you're really not showing up here.
Speaker: Then he showed up in a really great way.
Speaker: And I was like, oh, actually me not seeing everything, the timing of God's showing up in the situation was perfect.
Speaker: Brought a lot of wonderful peace to a situation that I think needed it.
Speaker: At least for that moment.
Speaker: And that moment was the right time.
Speaker: He does show up and he can take our hard questions.
Speaker: And that's part of loving God too.
Speaker: That's part of just loving and healthy relationships, I'm learning.
Speaker: Is not just rolling over and saying, okay, I'm just not going to make trouble.
Speaker: But it's actually...
Speaker: making trouble with the intent to reconcile, right?
Speaker: It's, this is a bad thing that I keep thinking about or that I'm struggling with.
Speaker: So let's get it out in the open.
Speaker: Let's talk about it and let's move forward.
Speaker: And if there's things in a relationship with Christ that are like that, that needs to get aired out.
Speaker: And in those moments of just you and God, you will see the face of true love and you will see that which gives us life, abundant life, a never-ending well from which we can drink from.
Speaker: It's amazing.
Speaker: And then just wait and see what that does to your art.
Speaker: Because every time that's happened for me, it makes the art better.
Speaker: Okay, so that was kind of my...
Speaker: I guess rambly soapbox.
Speaker: Got a little ceremony there.
Speaker: So if you're not a big ceremony guy, sorry.
Speaker: My question I'd like to pose to you guys.
Speaker: I would like to hear from you on this if you're wanting to throw something.
Speaker: We have in our website a contact form and I'll link that in the description for the episode below.
Speaker: What are some ways that you feel like you loved God, uh, either in your faith life or in your art?
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Are there rhythms that you have set up in your life that give you the opportunity to express love to God or show love to God through, you know, giving to charity or through worship or through times of prayer or through work around a house or volunteering somewhere?
Speaker: do you have something set up or does it kind of just flow and happen naturally?
Speaker: Um, cause I don't really know what that answer is for myself.
Speaker: I always tend to want to try and set up a rhythm of something, but I'm really bad at keeping to it.
Speaker: Um, and then secondly, is there something you've created that's
Speaker: grown out of the love between you and God.
Speaker: That's been, th is is the expression of my relationship with God and the love that he gives me and the love that I in turn give back to him.
Speaker: Um, for myself, gosh, lots of plays.
Speaker: Hamlet's been that, the singer's been that, and I'm really hoping that Godspell is that.
Speaker: I mean, it's the story of the gospel.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: So I'm really hoping I can manage to capture what I love about God on stage and what's challenging and difficult about God on stage, but why he's still worth it.
Speaker: Because he is worth it, even when it's challenging and difficult.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: Let's do better at loving him.
Speaker: I'm at least going to try and do better at loving him.
Speaker: I don't know how many other people needed to hear that, if anybody did, but that felt like that was what was on my mind.
Speaker: And we had a podcast episode to do.
Speaker: And it would have been kind of sucky to not put one out when we had the opportunity to on our one-year anniversary.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Go to the contact form.
Speaker: Share.
Speaker: How have you loved God?
Speaker: How's that built into your life and your faith?
Speaker: And what are those projects that you've created that have come out of your love for God?
Speaker: Thank you guys so much for listening.
Speaker: We have guests back next week.
Speaker: We're going to have two good friends of mine on who are also in Godspell who've also played Jesus.
Speaker: So we're going to have this little roundtable discussion of what exploring Jesus is.
Speaker: was like for us as actors and how that's kind of impacted our spiritual life, uh, and our relationship with him.
Speaker: Uh, and then we're going to have a special episode before we open Godspell with my creative team, my, my music director, assistant director, and choreographer who are all gobsback, gobs, gobs, bleh.
Speaker: I can't say the word.
Speaker: Gobsmacking.
Speaker: There we go.
Speaker: I was going to say gobsmackingly amazing.
Speaker: I've just completely botched this now.
Speaker: They are about a thousand times better than that sentence.
Speaker: How's that?
Speaker: That's going to be a great discussion, just talking a little bit about them as artists, a little about why they're doing Godspell, what they've enjoyed about Godspell.
Speaker: And then it's Godspell.
Speaker: And then we're going to take a little bit of a break in August, just because Godspell's been so chaotic.
Speaker: I need a little bit of a breather just to kind of...
Speaker: reset and get, uh, get some feet under the podcast again.
Speaker: So I'm working a little more in advance.
Speaker: So then you don't have these like half hour rambling episodes for me, unless you love them.
Speaker: If you want more half hour rambling episodes from me, let me know.
Speaker: Cause I can do that.
Speaker: I just think you guys probably usually like the more thoughtful discussions with guests, but thank you guys so much for listening.
Speaker: Um, I pray that God blesses you as you go throughout your week.
Speaker: And I pray that together we're able to receive the love of God and in turn show him wonderful love back.
