Transcript
Speaker: Hello, friends.
Speaker: Welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John.
Speaker: And I'm Nate.
Speaker: And we are the co-hosts of the podcast.
Speaker: Thank you guys for joining us.
Speaker: Nate, what you been thinking about this week?
Speaker: Well, you know, lots of things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Can't talk about all that today.
Speaker: But we can talk about Christ figures in art.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Share with our audience what you, your thought that you shared with me.
Speaker: Well, I was listening.
Speaker: And I'll blow it all up.
Speaker: Say the stupid thing you said to me.
Speaker: Say that dumb thing.
Speaker: And I'll say what I wanted to say to you about it.
Speaker: I'm quite excited to see what you've picked up on there.
Speaker: And then maybe complain about it.
Speaker: Okay, yeah, sounds good.
Speaker: Complain about the topic in general.
Speaker: I don't even want to talk about this topic.
Speaker: Well, I was... For some reason, Beauty and the Beast came up in conversation between me and my wife, Ellie.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: And so we were talking about that and kind of like the themes of like the girl like in like the bad boy and stuff like that.
Speaker: But that's not what we're talking about today.
Speaker: So I was listening to... We're talking about bad boy.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: But I was listening to some Beauty and the Beast music and just kind of thinking about the story some.
Speaker: And it kind of occurred to me that I think Belle is a Christ figure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Expound on that.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I'm going to lay it out.
Speaker: Lay it out for me.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Lay me out with your incredible analysis.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So at the beginning of the story, we have the prince encountering the old woman who turns out to be like a beautiful enchantress.
Speaker: And she... Wh at a bait and switch.
Speaker: It was.
Speaker: It was.
Speaker: And he really paid for it.
Speaker: It's the first catfishing.
Speaker: yes is it catfishing is when you're dating online yeah and say i got yeah or they're like opposite of dating yeah they're she they're hacking they're hacking in person she also starts out like super old and yeah like not very attractive and then so that a pretty online tag in person right but then it's the opposite where she shows up and she's like you're expecting a hag but then it turns out
Speaker: Well, right.
Speaker: Anyways, well, and that's my thoughtful analysis is that Beauty and the Beast is a catfishing story.
Speaker: We'll see which analysis you like better.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So he got cursed for being mean and inhospitable to her.
Speaker: And so his sin was he did not love the person on the inside.
Speaker: And he and his realm, his domain was cursed for that.
Speaker: And you would expect that for him to undo the curse, he needs to do it right.
Speaker: He needs to encounter the same thing again, another undesirable person, but love the person inside and so redeem himself from that.
Speaker: But that's not what happens in the story.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: A beautiful person comes to his realm in the form of Belle, and he does not have much attractive to him.
Speaker: That's one thing we were talking about, me and Ellie, is that even like in the...
Speaker: it's not like he had like, you know, this, like these great qualities, but he had this like hard exterior, even in the song.
Speaker: Like, it seems like she just loved him, just became loved him.
Speaker: And even in the song, there's something there.
Speaker: It's very vague about like, there's that phrase there's, but there's something there, which is like a nice vague way to talk about love.
Speaker: Like, you don't always know what it is, but that there is something there.
Speaker: And so she just loved him and changed him through her love.
Speaker: So she loved the person inside of him looking past the exterior and because of her love.
Speaker: then he was redeemed and his whole realm was redeemed, just like how Adam fell and his whole realm of earth fell.
Speaker: And he didn't save himself, he couldn't save himself, but instead the most beautiful person came to his realm and sacrificed himself and loved the people despite their ugliness.
Speaker: And because of his love, not us redeeming ourself, but because of his love, we are saved and our realm is saved.
Speaker: Like all creation is groaning and waiting, but it's going to be saved because of Christ's love for us that's undeserved, just like the beast's was.
Speaker: That's nice.
Speaker: Tear it up.
Speaker: Well, no, I think it's a good analysis.
Speaker: I don't want to tear it up.
Speaker: No, I think there are echoes of a very redemptive Christ-like thing there.
Speaker: You messaged me about this.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I was like, hmm.
Speaker: And I think, I just don't know if I like...
Speaker: I'm having a hard time putting words to the whole thought, but I will say it this way and I may amend what I say.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't think that I like Christ figures in things by which I mean, A, I don't know that I've ever wholly been convinced that when somebody says this character is a Christ figure that I believe it, unless it's like Aslan where it's an analogy and it's like the character says he's Jesus.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: I just don't think I like that or often agree with that analysis.
Speaker: And so I wanted to unpack.
Speaker: Maybe this is a definition thing.
Speaker: It could just be a definition thing.
Speaker: Maybe this will just be a five-minute podcast of us unpacking the definition.
Speaker: Oh, that's what a Christ figure is.
Speaker: Okay, I'm fine.
Speaker: Yeah, what do you mean by Christ figure when you say that?
Speaker: I mean someone... An action figure?
Speaker: Exactly, a plastic little being.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think that
Speaker: that even before Christ came, there were Christ figures in story because they had their myths of the dying God and then being rebirthed again and then life coming out of that.
Speaker: And then as Tolkien taught to Lewis, Christ is the myth made true, the true myth.
Speaker: And so I think it's just something that's baked...
Speaker: into what we know about reality is that Christ is a thing and that basically he's an archetype, but he's more than an archetype.
Speaker: He's the real thing.
Speaker: And so that's just something that we put into our stories because Christ is so much a part of our world, not culturally because...
Speaker: because Christianity's impact has been so broad.
Speaker: But even just baked into the reality of the world that God made is that he knew that the Father knew that he was sending Christ.
Speaker: So I feel like it's just baked into reality that even before Christ came, we had Christ figures, as it were.
Speaker: And then he's the real and perfect thing.
Speaker: Like none of the...
Speaker: Christ figures in art are as perfect as Christ is, but they point to him.
Speaker: And I think that pointing to the greatest story, the greatest truth is a good and valuable thing.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay, sure.
Speaker: And I think it usually manifests in a righteous person sacrificing himself for others.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Maybe I'm suffering from evangelical Christian growing up in the, like, Kendrick's Brothers movie era of Christian art then.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I think when I hear Christ figure, like I...
Speaker: And I don't know, maybe it's also possible I've just heard the term too broadly applied.
Speaker: Okay, how have you understood it?
Speaker: I have a few examples here, but I tend to think that like, when I've heard Christ figure or symbolic of that thing, that thing being Jesus, you know, that thing.
Speaker: The greatest thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think I've tended to be like,
Speaker: And maybe I'm just reading it as analogy when it's not supposed to be analogy.
Speaker: But I like, I have always heard that and I've looked at it and I'm like, okay, they're supposed to like fulfill something of Jesus in the role of this story.
Speaker: Then something of the Christ in the role of this story.
Speaker: And, but then they don't, I have never, that's not true.
Speaker: I have only ever once in a story that isn't an analogy felt like I've read a story with a character that is supposedly a Christ figure and
Speaker: And been like, okay, that seems like they're fulfilling the role of Christ in this story.
Speaker: But I've only seen that in a brief portion of said story.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And there's a few examples I can go through where I've not been convinced.
Speaker: And one where I would be convinced.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So you have just experienced it kind of once.
Speaker: And that makes you think, yeah, this isn't really a thing.
Speaker: And it's not...
Speaker: Like I would say, I see echoes of Christ in characters.
Speaker: I would say that I see echoes of him in probably a lot of these examples that I will name.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Which maybe is the same thing and we're just using a different term.
Speaker: What do you think, how would you, if you were to make a story and it were actually a Christ figure, what would that look like?
Speaker: my brain does automatically jump to something analogous of Christ.
Speaker: I think when I hear Christ figure, I think about what does Christ mean to the world and what does he mean to me?
Speaker: I think that that's just more than a character can encompass without being somewhat mapped to Christ.
Speaker: in a sort of complete sense.
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: Like, I feel like if I've only got a portion of Christ, it's not a Christ figure.
Speaker: I see.
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: So I would say they echo Christ.
Speaker: There's redemptive things in there that point to Christ in like a prophetic way, but I wouldn't call it a Christ figure.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay, so I think that when people use the term Christ figure, they're doing some of that echoing, especially of his main, like,
Speaker: story points, especially the end of his story.
Speaker: But I respect that maybe those people who say that or even make that don't have the full relationship with Christ that you do.
Speaker: And so you're like, he's so much more than that.
Speaker: Sorry, I appreciate that.
Speaker: My brain automatically jumped to...
Speaker: Everybody who's setting these characters are Christ figures.
Speaker: You don't even know him.
Speaker: You don't even know Jesus like I know Jesus.
Speaker: I mean, maybe.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: But I think that it can be a term that says, like, maybe in your view, the little that it says and still be a term that, okay, at least we know what we're talking about when you say that.
Speaker: I may just have grown up with a misunderstanding of how the term is generally applied.
Speaker: But I thought it would be interesting to run through a couple Christ figures that I think of of some of the like.
Speaker: Yeah, I thought of some too.
Speaker: Oh, cool.
Speaker: I love this.
Speaker: Maybe I didn't think of any different ones than you.
Speaker: I would guess you have.
Speaker: I didn't think of very many.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: How many did you think of?
Speaker: Maybe just a couple.
Speaker: I only thought of like, I only have four.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I may have thought of another one.
Speaker: First one, which was where my mind immediately jumped to when you said this.
Speaker: I just covered my mouth.
Speaker: That was bad podcast.
Speaker: Talk louder.
Speaker: Superman is often called a Christ figure.
Speaker: I dislike this.
Speaker: Okay, talk about that.
Speaker: Particularly in the films, I do not think he does anything that is worthy of being compared to Christ.
Speaker: I think you could make an argument because there has technically been an adaptation of the death of Superman now.
Speaker: Right, when he came back alive.
Speaker: Right, but I do not find the death of Superman arc to be a compelling...
Speaker: redemption resurrection narrative in a similar way to the resurrection of Jesus.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: There is a Superman death story that I think gets close to that emotionally.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And thematically, there's a comic called all star Superman, which came out.
Speaker: Sometime in the early 2000s.
Speaker: It's written by Grant Morrison.
Speaker: In this comic, Superman, for reasons, ends up getting overexposed to the sun, which is what gives him his powers.
Speaker: So he's starting to die from this overexposure.
Speaker: And so he kind of has this like...
Speaker: statute of limitations on his life and so he's trying to figure out what to do with his life he ends up telling lois who he is um lex luther hatches a big plan and they have a he like lex luther ends up giving himself superman powers somehow and in sort of this climactic salvo i'm spoiling this comic if you care about reading it for the handful of our audience that read comics there's some rich storytelling in comics there really is um so i would i would encourage you to look into comics i just think they're cool
Speaker: Sometimes they're trash, but... But this big climactic battle happens, and I don't remember exactly how it is.
Speaker: Maybe it's through a vague invented Superman power that happens from time to time in comics.
Speaker: He, like, is able to, like...
Speaker: pass on to Lex like how he sees the world and why he has chosen because the the crux of the conflict between Superman and Lex is Lex is so frustrated that even though he has all this like human power he does not have the godlike power of Superman and what does Superman do with it he's just supremely meek
Speaker: and and simple when he could do such so many great things which superman is doing but they're not great in lex's mind like he cannot understand why someone with superman's level of power would do what superman does huh and somehow so he tries to kill him exactly because he's like jealous it's all to a fault of like really i deserve what you have
Speaker: why do you have that i should have that um that's like the crux of their conflict in the comics and so generally that's varied at one point he was just mad at superman because superman made him lose his hair so comics are comics are all over the place but um somehow superman is able to like almost like like a vulcan mind meld like implant that idea and give lex that emotion and so there's this really beautiful scene of lex
Speaker: realizing what he could actually, the good he could actually do with Superman's power.
Speaker: And then it turns out that the sun is exploding, and so Superman says goodbye to Lois.
Speaker: This has been seeded out through the comics, so it's not like out of left field.
Speaker: He says goodbye to Lois.
Speaker: He's given, lacks almost this redemptive vision, and then he goes up and gives his own life with his over-radiated body to restart the sun and save the world.
Speaker: And he like passes into like...
Speaker: I don't know, transcendent consciousness or something like that.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: That is the closest thing to like a Christ figure story that could be there.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But analysis overwhelmingly calls Superman a Christ figure.
Speaker: Overwhelmingly.
Speaker: And I think...
Speaker: There's so many differences.
Speaker: Well, like you said, they have meekness and they do things for people.
Speaker: But like Jesus wasn't showy about it.
Speaker: I don't know that Superman's showy about it either.
Speaker: I don't think he's showy about it.
Speaker: I think.
Speaker: But it's not like my, I'm this great.
Speaker: Jesus is the ultimate man, but he's not Superman with superhuman powers kind of thing.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: that's not what the thing is.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think, again, I see where there's echoes of Christ in there.
Speaker: There's something powerful about the image of this person who's all-powerful from outside of us that came down to us, decides to just live as us, even though he has the power to rule us, but wants to just live among us for a time, and is just meek and tries to serve.
Speaker: That's a very, that's an echo of Christ, but I wouldn't say it's a Christ figure.
Speaker: And I think, and this was as I was thinking about this, like one of the sentences that I kept coming back to, where it felt like, for me and my understanding of a Christ figure, with all that Christ encapsulates, it's
Speaker: That calling Superman a Christ figure felt like cheapening his character and cheapening Christ.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: Like, I'm like, you can't reduce Christ to Superman.
Speaker: Christ is so much more than Superman.
Speaker: But also to try and fit Superman into Christ's mold.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Cheapens that character.
Speaker: Because there's more going on with this story than just, like, laying point by point onto Christ's story.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: They're different stories.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I think, like, it could be...
Speaker: someone could say that he's a Christ figure and they just mean the positive things that you said and stuff.
Speaker: And so it's worth like, then you can say your points about, yeah.
Speaker: There's also some, this is, this is very base level analysis that annoys me, but a lot of times they will just look at visual imagery and be like, Oh, before Superman flew, he did a little, little cross thing.
Speaker: And then he went out and I'm like, they probably just did that.
Speaker: Cause it looks cool.
Speaker: Just because he puts his arms out doesn't mean he's a Christ figure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But what's a Christ figure you thought of?
Speaker: Well, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem as good.
Speaker: I think I was thinking about Captain America.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: Because at least like in the movies, you know, again...
Speaker: Again, meek and trying to help for the good and then sacrifices himself in the end.
Speaker: But then in the movie, he's like essentially resurrected again.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I can.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, that does seem like just running on this analysis of who is a Christ figure that does sort of hit some of those notes.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And maybe when we're talking about Christ figures, we just mean more characters who embody what Christ is about, if that makes sense, which is like redemption.
Speaker: Well, that could be distilled into so many things.
Speaker: Right, right.
Speaker: Because if we're talking about Belle then in that context, she is going about the work of love and through that helping redeem these people.
Speaker: Yeah, there seems to be a lot of story points in the story that just line up with the world's story.
Speaker: Right, yeah.
Speaker: With Christ interacting with it.
Speaker: Right, and there would be lots of that.
Speaker: So I'm kind of thinking Belle more than any of these people, though she doesn't die.
Speaker: Okay, I'm going to throw another one out there that reminds me then.
Speaker: Harry Potter.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: I don't like that either.
Speaker: I don't either.
Speaker: And it's not because I don't think Harry Potter is a great character.
Speaker: I have seen the movies and I will probably read the books at some point.
Speaker: And I think he is a very compelling character.
Speaker: But there's he I think it's I think it's when he's born, he technically dies and resurrects at some point he dies and resurrects and saves people from this evil dark lord.
Speaker: At the end, he like... At the end that he does?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I can't remember when he does.
Speaker: I mean... Oh, that's right.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Did he die?
Speaker: I don't know if he technically died or not.
Speaker: I'm not a Harry Potter expert.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I've read it.
Speaker: I've not watched it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But yeah.
Speaker: But I'm like...
Speaker: And it's like these examples that come up that when I hear Christ figure, maybe I just have a... Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Some are just definitely more diluted than others.
Speaker: And it's like, yeah, sure.
Speaker: Do you mean diluted or diluted as in delusional?
Speaker: Oh, I mean, kind of both, I guess.
Speaker: Savage.
Speaker: But I think the Jesus, the story of dying and resurrecting just probably hits a lot of things.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: J.K.
Speaker: Rowling probably wouldn't have written that if there wasn't a Christ already.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I don't think a death and a resurrection automatically...
Speaker: means christ figure and i think a lot of times harry potter is a he's a jerk a lot he is that's not like jesus he improves as a person yeah he is yeah yeah i think there's a lot compelling going on with his character but i wouldn't look at that pantheon of no and be like he's the christ figure maybe it's that redemptive piece
Speaker: That's what they call, that's what they hang their head on?
Speaker: No, that's what I'm wondering if that's what my hang-up is, where it's like I don't see Superman redeeming people.
Speaker: I don't see Harry Potter redeeming people.
Speaker: That's why the bell is closer.
Speaker: I know, like you made a good case for it.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: I want to try to think of it there's more.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: But I might just be silent, and so that's not good podcasting.
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Speaker: Do you have any others?
Speaker: I have two others.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: That came to mind.
Speaker: Um, and I had, I had, I have a couple other questions after, after those two.
Speaker: One was one that Shay mentioned.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Which weirded me out.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: ET.
Speaker: Have you ever heard this before?
Speaker: I feel like I have.
Speaker: Go on, though.
Speaker: So apparently E.T.
Speaker: is a Christ figure because he comes down from out in the sky.
Speaker: He has a believer, which is Elliot.
Speaker: He dies and comes back to life.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: He heals Elliot by touching him.
Speaker: He tells Elliot he's always going to remain with him, and then he ascends.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: But it feels just so surface level.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm jiving with you on that.
Speaker: But that E.T.
Speaker: 's a weirdo, though.
Speaker: That's not my God.
Speaker: He is a weirdo.
Speaker: Jesus was never weird.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But no, I just thought, like, he's just a cute little dude, you know?
Speaker: There's definitely...
Speaker: Like, yeah, Christology story points there.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But again, I feel like even if the story point maps to that doesn't necessarily mean it's a Christ figure.
Speaker: I don't see... I see a lot of beautiful things in E.T.
Speaker: I loved E.T.
Speaker: growing up.
Speaker: I think he brings some, like, emotional healing to the situation he's in just by being a cute little guy that is nice to Elliot, you know, and brings some whimsy with him.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: I don't think that that's Christ, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: I want to kind of want to guess what the one that you've experienced that made you kind of feel like it's, it's incredibly on brand.
Speaker: It's, it's so on brand that it should, it would probably elicit an illicit an eye roll.
Speaker: Oh, well I was thinking something on brand, but maybe not as on brand as you're talking.
Speaker: It is Lord of the Rings.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: It's Aragorn in Lord of the Rings.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Which is interesting because in the movies, I'm fairly anti...
Speaker: any of the Christ figures you can draw from the movies, except maybe making an argument for Frodo as suffering servant, but I don't think that's as strong in the movies.
Speaker: I think in the movies, those characters are immensely relatable.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think, not that you can't relate to Christ, but I think that they're just, they are not elevated to a degree.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Part of what makes them relatable is their faults.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But in the book, Aragorn doesn't have his angsty, oh, should I be the king or should I not thing that he has in the movies, which I really enjoy in the movies and relate to.
Speaker: But in the books, it's just like, yep, I'm the king and it's going to be great.
Speaker: I'm just waiting for the right moment.
Speaker: And then the moment arrives.
Speaker: And that moment, I've found to be stirring and feel like something Christ-like to me.
Speaker: Him marching to Menas Tirith.
Speaker: with the army of the dead saving Minas Tirith, and then especially the halls of healing chapter where he is just tending to the wounded afterwards.
Speaker: And there's this beautiful line, the hands of the king are the hands of a healer, which is probably not something you would ever really write about a king in the real world.
Speaker: I think most world leaders I would not call a healer, you know, but our ultimate king is supposed to be a healer.
Speaker: That's the defining thing.
Speaker: Interesting, because that resonates with the heart of Christ, but doesn't have those traditional Christ figures, story points.
Speaker: There's no death or resurrection point.
Speaker: I mean, there is for Gandalf.
Speaker: If you're going by, there's often a traditional...
Speaker: sort of reading of Tolkien that there's a threefold Christ figure, which is Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo.
Speaker: Where Frodo's the suffering servant, Gandalf is the sort of divine prophet, and he has the death and resurrection thing, and Aragorn is the king, so you have priest, prophet, king.
Speaker: And those are three offices which Christ holds.
Speaker: That's interesting.
Speaker: I think it's interesting.
Speaker: I don't buy it all.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't really think of Gandalf as a Christ figure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think when I was a kid, I was like, oh, he's the Disneyland of the story.
Speaker: Kind of like Elijah more.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Elijah's a good one.
Speaker: Yeah, he's very Elijah.
Speaker: But yeah, there was something in, I just think, Tolkien's prose and probably his Catholicism seeping into it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Or just that description of how
Speaker: Aragorn treated his people felt like a Christ figure in that moment.
Speaker: Yeah, because like Tolkien had the truth.
Speaker: And so that truth just naturally seeped into his work like that.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I don't know how this applies to Belle, but this is an interesting thing that all of the other, well, okay.
Speaker: Harry Potter, J.K.
Speaker: Rowling is a Christian.
Speaker: Is my understanding.
Speaker: She is?
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: I didn't know.
Speaker: hear that that's my understanding that she is a christian or at least was when she wrote them um so i believe that's true that would be great if she was but all those other characters were not written by christians that was not where their origination came from so the christ figure thing has almost been thrust upon them
Speaker: Whereas for Tolkien, it seems like maybe that is coming out in his work a bit more as opposed to it being thrust on it after the fact.
Speaker: I don't know how that intersects with Beauty and the Beast because that's like a folk tale.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Where, I mean, that was in like Christendom was like a very strong part of the Middle Eastern world.
Speaker: So, but that is interesting where that's coming from.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think it, I think it infuses the world, like I said, but probably especially if you have relationship with Christ and you know the truth, it will infuse your work.
Speaker: And I think, I think you make a really good point early on when you're talking about Christ figures in general, like you talking about Christ figures, um,
Speaker: before uh christ like that it's just baked into the world and i think that that's very true like i look at we're in the middle of spring right yeah exactly the world is resurrecting exactly yeah like god has sort of just built this in right and so it would come out in our work right um
Speaker: But I think sometimes to try and draw those comparisons, and I don't think so in the case of Belle.
Speaker: You won me over with Belle.
Speaker: Well done.
Speaker: Thanks, buddy.
Speaker: But I think sometimes to draw those comparisons both cheapens the character and cheapens Christ.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It just feels like that's not all that Christ was.
Speaker: He's so much more.
Speaker: I think you kind of moved me in your direction, too.
Speaker: Winning.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We've moved each other.
Speaker: Now are we on opposite ends?
Speaker: Have we done a switcheroo?
Speaker: I don't think so.
Speaker: I think we're in the happy middle.
Speaker: We are now enlightened centrists.
Speaker: Now we can laud that over everybody.
Speaker: I want to ask about another one, but not talk in too much detail about it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: How do you feel about Peace Like a River?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Are you thinking about... Well, wouldn't it be anyone else to think about?
Speaker: Um, yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Um, Leif Anger.
Speaker: I would have talked about Leif on my episode about, um, art that got me through 2024.
Speaker: He's, he is a great author wrote, um, I cheerfully refuse Virgil Wander and a book that Nate and I both read recently called peace like a river.
Speaker: Um, Oh, there is something compelling about a character there.
Speaker: Um, that,
Speaker: that is fairly Christ-like.
Speaker: I don't know if I would say he's a Christ figure, but part of that is how real to life that feels.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I think that's maybe part of it.
Speaker: I think part of it tracks on.
Speaker: And part of it is like you're talking about Aragorn is just this father figure.
Speaker: He's a father figure because he's the father.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Just how he exudes Christ-likeness.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: That seems... Yeah, I don't know if I would call that a Christ figure, but there is... No.
Speaker: There's a good Christ-likeness about that.
Speaker: But that feels like a term we could use about...
Speaker: any like any believer you know there's christ likeness about you right i think there's something about that story that pushes it a little bit further i think so but yes um we should talk more about this off air yeah we won't potentially spoil it for somebody we know who's reading it yeah um highly recommend peace like a river definitely give it a read it's a beautiful beautiful work um
Speaker: So I had two other thoughts that we can just briefly chat about.
Speaker: Are there ways you think in which artists should strive to...
Speaker: If they're trying to create a Christ figure to do it well, so it isn't shallow, so it doesn't cheapen Christ, and it also allows that character to flourish, are there ways you've seen it done really well?
Speaker: Maybe Peace Like a River is the example, and we just have to refer people to that.
Speaker: Right, right.
Speaker: Or Lord of the Rings, but you've probably heard me recommend Lord of the Rings too much at this point, so...
Speaker: I mean, I like Aslan a lot.
Speaker: I think Aslan is great.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What I love about Aslan is it feels like you take the essence of Christ and
Speaker: But you don't... I mean, Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, obviously, there is a sort of passion narrative there.
Speaker: Right, but even beyond that.
Speaker: But beyond that, it feels very Christ-like.
Speaker: He is operating in the story as I believe Christ would.
Speaker: And it's not even really fair to say he's a Christ figure because within the world of the story, he's just Christ.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So if we're going off of this...
Speaker: Oh, I thought of another one.
Speaker: Oh, what is your other one?
Speaker: Paralandra.
Speaker: Ransom.
Speaker: And Paralandra, they're very purposely...
Speaker: made him an echo of Christ such that C.S.
Speaker: Lewis' second book in the space trilogy, we've talked about it here before, but where he has to come and essentially keep humanity from falling.
Speaker: So it's a different story than Earth's story because we did fall.
Speaker: But they have...
Speaker: Again, like it doesn't completely track on, but it's this dude whose name is Ransom.
Speaker: And so he has to kind of in a way ransom himself like Christ ransomed himself and do battle literally with the devil.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then things get just kind of on the nose towards the end of the book such that him and the devil character, which may really be the devil, bites his heel.
Speaker: And it's like forever wounded there.
Speaker: And then he kills him in the end by crushing his head.
Speaker: Classic.
Speaker: Love it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And there's kind of a descending into hell and coming then up to the top of the mountain kind of thing.
Speaker: So very much...
Speaker: echoes of the story and of like biblical things like those verses like you will crush your here yeah but you hear but you'll crush his head but it wouldn't say and the character ransom would not like deign to say at all that he is you know christ but i think he humbly like recognizes that he's being used in a role like that sure
Speaker: I have an interesting thought theologically and in like a spiritual formation exercise, but I don't think we have time to do it on the podcast.
Speaker: So I may just, I'm going to throw it out there and we can all think about it.
Speaker: Let's think about it.
Speaker: Because one of the things that came up in my strong objection to Christ as I was thinking about this is,
Speaker: I was like, nobody can really be a figure of Christ, I felt like.
Speaker: And then I had this little thing in the back of my head that was like, but John, the church is supposed to be the body of Christ.
Speaker: We're the hands and feet of Christ to the world.
Speaker: And I was like, oh, shoot.
Speaker: We're all supposed to be Christ figures, Christians, little Christs.
Speaker: Which was an interesting challenge.
Speaker: I think I'm just doing the pendulum swing of life as you do.
Speaker: But we've talked off air.
Speaker: I can't remember if I've talked...
Speaker: Off air, on air.
Speaker: We're never on air.
Speaker: Live.
Speaker: You can call in right now.
Speaker: I don't know if I've talked about it on the podcast before, but I've over the last couple of years, I think especially year, year and a half, been doing this journey of trying to.
Speaker: identify less with Christ in the sense of when I did Cotton Patch, I tended to, that character was so rich and it really revolutionized my spiritual life.
Speaker: But then I would find myself when I was reading scripture, just putting myself in the place of Christ, like identifying with that part of the story.
Speaker: And I'm like, hang on, I have to find myself in other parts of this story.
Speaker: And I'm wondering, maybe this is just a thing I'm realizing now for my own spiritual life.
Speaker: I'm wondering if God is nudging me back the other direction to say, okay, yes, you are not Jesus, John.
Speaker: He's your older brother.
Speaker: He's gone before you.
Speaker: But reflect on that story.
Speaker: What is it that makes something a Christ figure?
Speaker: If there's something in a story that makes something a Christ figure, what are those things?
Speaker: Is that fruit that's showing in my life?
Speaker: Because I'm a member of the body of Christ, I'm meant to follow after him.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm not going to literally die and come back to life.
Speaker: Well, will you?
Speaker: Oh, dang, I will.
Speaker: Shoot, you've dropped me.
Speaker: I will not do so in the specific context of doing it for people's sins and redeeming the world.
Speaker: But what are little ways that I can die, quote unquote, and redeem, quote unquote, things?
Speaker: How can I be about, how can I join in God's redemptive work where I'm not achieving it, but he's already working and I can die to myself and be about his redemptive work through his enabling?
Speaker: What are ways in which I can be meek, in which I can be a servant to the world?
Speaker: What are ways in which I can speak truth to those who need to hear that truth?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Not in the place of Christ, but as this sort of lesser representative figure.
Speaker: And you have the spirit in you.
Speaker: You have what he had in him.
Speaker: You have in you.
Speaker: And I think we don't realize the magnitude of that.
Speaker: Often so, but the same spirit which rose Jesus from the dead lives in you.
Speaker: Lives in us to work in the world.
Speaker: And there is that line that Jesus says that still baffles me where he says, you will do greater things with the spirit in you than I've done.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Which I'm like, not all the way, Lord, because you redeemed us.
Speaker: I don't know what that means either.
Speaker: I don't think you can get greater than Calvary.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: And the resurrection.
Speaker: Yeah, it's a talk about his body through history.
Speaker: We'll do all these mini deeds, but I don't know.
Speaker: But it's a crazy, hopeful, radical thing he's saying.
Speaker: Yeah, and when you're...
Speaker: Doing it right is not a prideful thing.
Speaker: Like, look at me.
Speaker: I am as God.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because it can be a humbling thing that, oh, this is good stuff coming out of me.
Speaker: That's not me.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that's very...
Speaker: comforting that the spirit then is working when you when you experience that like if this was just me operating in my normal state this is would not be how i'm responding but i think i have a spirit in me because i'm responding this way yeah
Speaker: and that's good on the spirit and how blessed and reassuring that he is in fact working in you that's beautiful i feel like i've i feel like i've been experienced some of experiencing some of that like leading up to the baby because you know pregnancy is a whole thing and i feel like i in my humanness am not i i i am i don't
Speaker: know that I'm naturally gentle and naturally able to like just take these things and go with it and I know that there's a lot of things that just because of the life that I've led could like happen and I could be like lunch up anxiety time you know and right but somehow I feel like through the spirit and grace of God he's just been getting me through and it's just beautiful to see so good God at work being able to use someone as his representative in that way oh
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: As his hands and feet and as his son.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's beautiful.
Speaker: So we should think about what are those Christ figure things?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And again, it doesn't come by just doing it through our own efforts.
Speaker: It's through the Spirit.
Speaker: Through the Spirit and getting closer to Christ and the Spirit by looking to Christ, spending time with Him.
Speaker: And that's how Christ was who He was, other than by being who He was.
Speaker: But He spent so much time with the Father.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Wonderful.
Speaker: Any other thoughts before we... I think that's all right.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: Well, thank you guys so much for listening.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Let us know, are there any Christ figures in art that you love?
Speaker: Do you think that I... I guess, Nate, because we've landed on the same similar places, at least.
Speaker: Do you think we're completely wrong about Christ figures?
Speaker: How do you understand that?
Speaker: And are there Christ figures where you're like, this character...
Speaker: Yeah, we could talk about it in a future episode.
Speaker: We could do a second Christ figures episode.
Speaker: Or even just a little blurb.
Speaker: Just a little rehash.
Speaker: This person had this thought.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: I can share your thoughts on the podcast.
Speaker: Nate has great ideas.
Speaker: But that would be...
Speaker: Really fun.
Speaker: Or just characters where you feel like they echo Christ in some way.
Speaker: Kind of like what we were talking about with Peace Like a River.
Speaker: We're like, we don't know if he's totally a Christ figure, but my gosh, there's some beautiful Christ likeness to him.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: If you enjoyed the podcast, we would love it if you shared, if you...
Speaker: Left a review.
Speaker: That really helps.
Speaker: Helps us know if we're doing good things or if we need to improve in other things.
Speaker: Helps more people learn about it, too.
Speaker: It does.
Speaker: Because of the algorithm.
Speaker: Because of the algorithm.
Speaker: We talked about that last episode a little bit.
Speaker: But thank you, guys.
Speaker: We're so grateful for the people who do tune in and listen every other week when I'm consistent with the uploads.
Speaker: And it does just mean so much.
Speaker: And we are so glad to be able to just share these conversations and share this time with you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's beautiful.
Speaker: Have a good week.
Speaker: Yeah.
