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Christ Figures in Art
56 Plays6 months ago
In this episode Jon and Nate discuss various popular Christ-Figures in storytelling, and the concept of the "Christ-Figure" itself and the merits of such a character. What is it that makes a Christ-Figure a Christ-Figure? Can any character live up to that title? Or are we meant to catch these glimpses of Christ in many characters?
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Transcript
Introduction and Gratitude
00:00:02
Speaker
Hello, friends.
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome back to Artists of the Way.
00:00:05
Speaker
I'm John.
00:00:05
Speaker
And I'm Nate.
00:00:06
Speaker
And we are the co-hosts of the podcast.
00:00:09
Speaker
Thank you guys for joining us.
Significance of Christ Figures in Art
00:00:11
Speaker
Nate, what you been thinking about this week?
00:00:15
Speaker
Well, you know, lots of things.
00:00:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:00:18
Speaker
Can't talk about all that today.
00:00:20
Speaker
But we can talk about Christ figures in art.
00:00:24
Speaker
Yes.
00:00:26
Speaker
Share with our audience what you, your thought that you shared with me.
00:00:29
Speaker
Well, I was listening.
00:00:30
Speaker
And I'll blow it all up.
00:00:32
Speaker
Say the stupid thing you said to me.
00:00:34
Speaker
Say that dumb thing.
00:00:36
Speaker
And I'll say what I wanted to say to you about it.
00:00:38
Speaker
I'm quite excited to see what you've picked up on there.
00:00:40
Speaker
And then maybe complain about it.
00:00:43
Speaker
Okay, yeah, sounds good.
00:00:44
Speaker
Complain about the topic in general.
00:00:46
Speaker
I don't even want to talk about this topic.
Belle as a Christ Figure
00:00:49
Speaker
Well, I was... For some reason, Beauty and the Beast came up in conversation between me and my wife, Ellie.
00:01:00
Speaker
And...
00:01:02
Speaker
And so we were talking about that and kind of like the themes of like the girl like in like the bad boy and stuff like that.
00:01:12
Speaker
But that's not what we're talking about today.
00:01:13
Speaker
So I was listening to... We're talking about bad boy.
00:01:15
Speaker
So...
00:01:19
Speaker
But I was listening to some Beauty and the Beast music and just kind of thinking about the story some.
00:01:28
Speaker
And it kind of occurred to me that I think Belle is a Christ figure.
00:01:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:33
Speaker
Expound on that.
00:01:33
Speaker
Okay.
00:01:34
Speaker
I'm going to lay it out.
00:01:35
Speaker
Lay it out for me.
00:01:36
Speaker
Okay.
00:01:37
Speaker
Lay me out with your incredible analysis.
00:01:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:41
Speaker
So at the beginning of the story, we have the prince encountering the old woman who turns out to be like a beautiful enchantress.
00:01:52
Speaker
And she... What a bait and switch.
00:01:54
Speaker
It was.
00:01:55
Speaker
It was.
00:01:56
Speaker
And he really paid for it.
00:01:57
Speaker
It's the first catfishing.
00:02:01
Speaker
yes is it catfishing is when you're dating online yeah and say i got yeah or they're like opposite of dating yeah they're she they're hacking they're hacking in person she also starts out like super old and yeah like not very attractive and then so that a pretty online tag in person right but then it's the opposite where she shows up and she's like you're expecting a hag but then it turns out
00:02:27
Speaker
Well, right.
00:02:28
Speaker
Anyways, well, and that's my thoughtful analysis is that Beauty and the Beast is a catfishing story.
00:02:35
Speaker
We'll see which analysis you like better.
00:02:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:40
Speaker
So he got cursed for being mean and inhospitable to her.
00:02:46
Speaker
And so his sin was he did not love the person on the inside.
00:02:56
Speaker
And he and his realm, his domain was cursed for that.
00:03:03
Speaker
And you would expect that for him to undo the curse, he needs to do it right.
00:03:11
Speaker
He needs to encounter the same thing again, another undesirable person, but love the person inside and so redeem himself from that.
00:03:22
Speaker
But that's not what happens in the story.
00:03:24
Speaker
Right.
00:03:28
Speaker
A beautiful person comes to his realm in the form of Belle, and he does not have much attractive to him.
00:03:39
Speaker
That's one thing we were talking about, me and Ellie, is that even like in the...
00:03:43
Speaker
it's not like he had like, you know, this, like these great qualities, but he had this like hard exterior, even in the song.
00:03:54
Speaker
Like, it seems like she just loved him, just became loved him.
00:03:58
Speaker
And even in the song, there's something there.
00:04:00
Speaker
It's very vague about like, there's that phrase there's, but there's something there, which is like a nice vague way to talk about love.
00:04:08
Speaker
Like, you don't always know what it is, but that there is something there.
00:04:14
Speaker
And so she just loved him and changed him through her love.
00:04:19
Speaker
So she loved the person inside of him looking past the exterior and because of her love.
00:04:30
Speaker
then he was redeemed and his whole realm was redeemed, just like how Adam fell and his whole realm of earth fell.
00:04:43
Speaker
And he didn't save himself, he couldn't save himself, but instead the most beautiful person came to his realm and sacrificed himself and loved the people despite their ugliness.
00:04:58
Speaker
And because of his love, not us redeeming ourself, but because of his love, we are saved and our realm is saved.
00:05:05
Speaker
Like all creation is groaning and waiting, but it's going to be saved because of Christ's love for us that's undeserved, just like the beast's was.
Skepticism of Christ Figures in Art
00:05:17
Speaker
That's nice.
00:05:17
Speaker
Tear it up.
00:05:20
Speaker
Well, no, I think it's a good analysis.
00:05:22
Speaker
I don't want to tear it up.
00:05:24
Speaker
No, I think there are echoes of a very redemptive Christ-like thing there.
00:05:30
Speaker
You messaged me about this.
00:05:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:32
Speaker
And I was like, hmm.
00:05:35
Speaker
And I think, I just don't know if I like...
00:05:42
Speaker
I'm having a hard time putting words to the whole thought, but I will say it this way and I may amend what I say.
00:05:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:47
Speaker
I don't think that I like Christ figures in things by which I mean, A, I don't know that I've ever wholly been convinced that when somebody says this character is a Christ figure that I believe it, unless it's like Aslan where it's an analogy and it's like the character says he's Jesus.
00:06:09
Speaker
Sure.
00:06:12
Speaker
I just don't think I like that or often agree with that analysis.
00:06:17
Speaker
And so I wanted to unpack.
00:06:18
Speaker
Maybe this is a definition thing.
00:06:19
Speaker
It could just be a definition thing.
00:06:21
Speaker
Maybe this will just be a five-minute podcast of us unpacking the definition.
00:06:24
Speaker
Oh, that's what a Christ figure is.
00:06:25
Speaker
Okay, I'm fine.
00:06:26
Speaker
Yeah, what do you mean by Christ figure when you say that?
00:06:30
Speaker
I mean someone... An action figure?
00:06:37
Speaker
Exactly, a plastic little being.
00:06:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:41
Speaker
I think that
00:06:44
Speaker
that even before Christ came, there were Christ figures in story because they had their myths of the dying God and then being rebirthed again and then life coming out of that.
00:07:01
Speaker
And then as Tolkien taught to Lewis, Christ is the myth made true, the true myth.
00:07:08
Speaker
And so I think it's just something that's baked...
00:07:11
Speaker
into what we know about reality is that Christ is a thing and that basically he's an archetype, but he's more than an archetype.
00:07:23
Speaker
He's the real thing.
00:07:25
Speaker
And so that's just something that we put into our stories because Christ is so much a part of our world, not culturally because...
00:07:38
Speaker
because Christianity's impact has been so broad.
00:07:41
Speaker
But even just baked into the reality of the world that God made is that he knew that the Father knew that he was sending Christ.
00:07:48
Speaker
So I feel like it's just baked into reality that even before Christ came, we had Christ figures,
Natural Reflections of Christ in Stories
00:07:56
Speaker
as it were.
00:07:56
Speaker
And then he's the real and perfect thing.
00:07:58
Speaker
Like none of the...
00:07:59
Speaker
Christ figures in art are as perfect as Christ is, but they point to him.
00:08:07
Speaker
And I think that pointing to the greatest story, the greatest truth is a good and valuable thing.
00:08:14
Speaker
Okay.
00:08:15
Speaker
Okay, sure.
00:08:18
Speaker
And I think it usually manifests in a righteous person sacrificing himself for others.
00:08:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:26
Speaker
Okay.
00:08:27
Speaker
Maybe I'm suffering from evangelical Christian growing up in the, like, Kendrick's Brothers movie era of Christian art then.
00:08:37
Speaker
Okay.
00:08:38
Speaker
I think when I hear Christ figure, like I...
00:08:45
Speaker
And I don't know, maybe it's also possible I've just heard the term too broadly applied.
00:08:50
Speaker
Okay, how have you understood it?
00:08:51
Speaker
I have a few examples here, but I tend to think that like, when I've heard Christ figure or symbolic of that thing, that thing being Jesus, you know, that thing.
00:09:09
Speaker
The greatest thing.
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:11
Speaker
I think I've tended to be like,
00:09:14
Speaker
And maybe I'm just reading it as analogy when it's not supposed to be analogy.
00:09:18
Speaker
But I like, I have always heard that and I've looked at it and I'm like, okay, they're supposed to like fulfill something of Jesus in the role of this story.
00:09:26
Speaker
Then something of the Christ in the role of this story.
00:09:28
Speaker
And, but then they don't, I have never, that's not true.
00:09:32
Speaker
I have only ever once in a story that isn't an analogy felt like I've read a story with a character that is supposedly a Christ figure and
00:09:44
Speaker
And been like, okay, that seems like they're fulfilling the role of Christ in this story.
00:09:48
Speaker
But I've only seen that in a brief portion of said story.
00:09:51
Speaker
Okay.
00:09:51
Speaker
And there's a few examples I can go through where I've not been convinced.
00:09:55
Speaker
And one where I would be convinced.
00:09:57
Speaker
Okay.
00:10:01
Speaker
So you have just experienced it kind of once.
00:10:05
Speaker
And that makes you think, yeah, this isn't really a thing.
00:10:10
Speaker
And it's not...
00:10:12
Speaker
Like I would say, I see echoes of Christ in characters.
00:10:18
Speaker
I would say that I see echoes of him in probably a lot of these examples that I will name.
00:10:22
Speaker
Right.
00:10:22
Speaker
Which maybe is the same thing and we're just using a different term.
00:10:26
Speaker
What do you think, how would you, if you were to make a story and it were actually a Christ figure, what would that look like?
00:10:34
Speaker
my brain does automatically jump to something analogous of Christ.
00:10:39
Speaker
I think when I hear Christ figure, I think about what does Christ mean to the world and what does he mean to me?
00:10:46
Speaker
I think that that's just more than a character can encompass without being somewhat mapped to Christ.
00:10:56
Speaker
in a sort of complete sense.
00:10:58
Speaker
Does that make sense?
00:11:00
Speaker
Like, I feel like if I've only got a portion of Christ, it's not a Christ figure.
00:11:04
Speaker
I see.
00:11:05
Speaker
Does that make sense?
00:11:09
Speaker
So I would say they echo Christ.
00:11:11
Speaker
There's redemptive things in there that point to Christ in like a prophetic way, but I wouldn't call it a Christ figure.
00:11:23
Speaker
Okay.
00:11:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:26
Speaker
Okay, so I think that when people use the term Christ figure, they're doing some of that echoing, especially of his main, like,
00:11:39
Speaker
story points, especially the end of his story.
00:11:44
Speaker
But I respect that maybe those people who say that or even make that don't have the full relationship with Christ that you do.
00:11:54
Speaker
And so you're like, he's so much more than that.
00:11:59
Speaker
Sorry, I appreciate that.
00:12:01
Speaker
My brain automatically jumped to...
00:12:03
Speaker
Everybody who's setting these characters are Christ figures.
00:12:05
Speaker
You don't even know him.
00:12:06
Speaker
You don't even know Jesus like I know Jesus.
00:12:09
Speaker
I mean, maybe.
00:12:11
Speaker
I don't know.
00:12:14
Speaker
But I think that it can be a term that says, like, maybe in your view, the little that it says and still be a term that, okay, at least we know what we're talking about when you say that.
00:12:30
Speaker
I may just have grown up with a misunderstanding of how the term is generally applied.
00:12:35
Speaker
But I thought it would be interesting to run through a couple Christ figures that I think of of some of the like.
00:12:42
Speaker
Yeah, I thought of some too.
00:12:43
Speaker
Oh, cool.
00:12:43
Speaker
I love this.
00:12:44
Speaker
Maybe I didn't think of any different ones than you.
00:12:47
Speaker
I would guess you have.
00:12:48
Speaker
I didn't think of very many.
00:12:49
Speaker
Oh.
00:12:50
Speaker
How many did you think of?
00:12:51
Speaker
Maybe just a couple.
00:12:54
Speaker
I only thought of like, I only have four.
00:12:58
Speaker
Okay.
00:12:58
Speaker
So.
00:12:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:00
Speaker
I may have thought of another one.
00:13:02
Speaker
First one, which was where my mind immediately jumped to when you said this.
00:13:06
Speaker
I just covered my mouth.
00:13:07
Speaker
That was bad podcast.
00:13:10
Speaker
Talk louder.
00:13:13
Speaker
Superman is often called a Christ figure.
00:13:15
Speaker
I dislike this.
00:13:17
Speaker
Okay, talk about that.
00:13:20
Speaker
Particularly in the films, I do not think he does anything that is worthy of being compared to Christ.
00:13:27
Speaker
I think you could make an argument because there has technically been an adaptation of the death of Superman now.
00:13:32
Speaker
Right, when he came back alive.
00:13:34
Speaker
Right, but I do not find the death of Superman arc to be a compelling...
00:13:40
Speaker
redemption resurrection narrative in a similar way to the resurrection of Jesus.
00:13:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:45
Speaker
There is a Superman death story that I think gets close to that emotionally.
00:13:52
Speaker
Okay.
00:13:52
Speaker
And thematically, there's a comic called all star Superman, which came out.
00:13:58
Speaker
Sometime in the early 2000s.
00:14:00
Speaker
It's written by Grant Morrison.
00:14:02
Speaker
In this comic, Superman, for reasons, ends up getting overexposed to the sun, which is what gives him his powers.
00:14:09
Speaker
So he's starting to die from this overexposure.
00:14:13
Speaker
And so he kind of has this like...
00:14:17
Speaker
statute of limitations on his life and so he's trying to figure out what to do with his life he ends up telling lois who he is um lex luther hatches a big plan and they have a he like lex luther ends up giving himself superman powers somehow and in sort of this climactic salvo i'm spoiling this comic if you care about reading it for the handful of our audience that read comics there's some rich storytelling in comics there really is um so i would i would encourage you to look into comics i just think they're cool
00:14:44
Speaker
Sometimes they're trash, but... But this big climactic battle happens, and I don't remember exactly how it is.
00:14:53
Speaker
Maybe it's through a vague invented Superman power that happens from time to time in comics.
00:14:58
Speaker
He, like, is able to, like...
00:15:00
Speaker
pass on to Lex like how he sees the world and why he has chosen because the the crux of the conflict between Superman and Lex is Lex is so frustrated that even though he has all this like human power he does not have the godlike power of Superman and what does Superman do with it he's just supremely meek
00:15:23
Speaker
and and simple when he could do such so many great things which superman is doing but they're not great in lex's mind like he cannot understand why someone with superman's level of power would do what superman does huh and somehow so he tries to kill him exactly because he's like jealous it's all to a fault of like really i deserve what you have
00:15:46
Speaker
why do you have that i should have that um that's like the crux of their conflict in the comics and so generally that's varied at one point he was just mad at superman because superman made him lose his hair so comics are comics are all over the place but um somehow superman is able to like almost like like a vulcan mind meld like implant that idea and give lex that emotion and so there's this really beautiful scene of lex
00:16:14
Speaker
realizing what he could actually, the good he could actually do with Superman's power.
00:16:21
Speaker
And then it turns out that the sun is exploding, and so Superman says goodbye to Lois.
00:16:25
Speaker
This has been seeded out through the comics, so it's not like out of left field.
00:16:29
Speaker
He says goodbye to Lois.
00:16:31
Speaker
He's given, lacks almost this redemptive vision, and then he goes up and gives his own life with his over-radiated body to restart the sun and save the world.
00:16:41
Speaker
And he like passes into like...
00:16:43
Speaker
I don't know, transcendent consciousness or something like that.
00:16:47
Speaker
Okay.
00:16:49
Speaker
That is the closest thing to like a Christ figure story that could be there.
00:16:54
Speaker
Right.
00:16:56
Speaker
But analysis overwhelmingly calls Superman a Christ figure.
00:17:00
Speaker
Overwhelmingly.
00:17:02
Speaker
And I think...
00:17:04
Speaker
There's so many differences.
00:17:06
Speaker
Well, like you said, they have meekness and they do things for people.
00:17:11
Speaker
But like Jesus wasn't showy about it.
00:17:16
Speaker
I don't know that Superman's showy about it either.
00:17:19
Speaker
I don't think he's showy about it.
00:17:20
Speaker
I think.
00:17:21
Speaker
But it's not like my, I'm this great.
00:17:25
Speaker
Jesus is the ultimate man, but he's not Superman with superhuman powers kind of thing.
00:17:31
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:17:32
Speaker
that's not what the thing is.
00:17:33
Speaker
Right.
00:17:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:34
Speaker
And I think, again, I see where there's echoes of Christ in there.
00:17:38
Speaker
There's something powerful about the image of this person who's all-powerful from outside of us that came down to us, decides to just live as us, even though he has the power to rule us, but wants to just live among us for a time, and is just meek and tries to
Debating Superman as a Christ Figure
00:17:57
Speaker
serve.
00:17:57
Speaker
That's a very, that's an echo of Christ, but I wouldn't say it's a Christ figure.
00:18:03
Speaker
And I think, and this was as I was thinking about this, like one of the sentences that I kept coming back to, where it felt like, for me and my understanding of a Christ figure, with all that Christ encapsulates, it's
00:18:18
Speaker
That calling Superman a Christ figure felt like cheapening his character and cheapening Christ.
00:18:24
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:18:24
Speaker
Like, I'm like, you can't reduce Christ to Superman.
00:18:28
Speaker
Christ is so much more than Superman.
00:18:30
Speaker
But also to try and fit Superman into Christ's mold.
00:18:34
Speaker
Right.
00:18:34
Speaker
Cheapens that character.
00:18:35
Speaker
Because there's more going on with this story than just, like, laying point by point onto Christ's story.
00:18:40
Speaker
Right.
00:18:41
Speaker
Right.
00:18:41
Speaker
They're different stories.
00:18:43
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:18:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:46
Speaker
So I think, like, it could be...
00:18:49
Speaker
someone could say that he's a Christ figure and they just mean the positive things that you said and stuff.
00:18:55
Speaker
And so it's worth like, then you can say your points about, yeah.
00:19:00
Speaker
There's also some, this is, this is very base level analysis that annoys me, but a lot of times they will just look at visual imagery and be like, Oh, before Superman flew, he did a little, little cross thing.
00:19:09
Speaker
And then he went out and I'm like, they probably just did that.
00:19:12
Speaker
Cause it looks cool.
00:19:14
Speaker
Just because he puts his arms out doesn't mean he's a Christ figure.
00:19:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:18
Speaker
But what's a Christ figure you thought of?
00:19:21
Speaker
Well, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem as good.
00:19:24
Speaker
I think I was thinking about Captain America.
00:19:26
Speaker
Oh.
00:19:26
Speaker
Because at least like in the movies, you know, again...
00:19:32
Speaker
Again, meek and trying to help for the good and then sacrifices himself in the end.
00:19:43
Speaker
But then in the movie, he's like essentially resurrected again.
00:19:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:47
Speaker
So I can.
00:19:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:49
Speaker
No, that does seem like just running on this analysis of who is a Christ figure that does sort of hit some of those notes.
00:19:56
Speaker
Right.
00:19:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:59
Speaker
And maybe when we're talking about Christ figures, we just mean more characters who embody what Christ is about, if that makes sense, which is like redemption.
00:20:09
Speaker
Well, that could be distilled into so many things.
00:20:14
Speaker
Right, right.
00:20:16
Speaker
Because if we're talking about Belle then in that context, she is going about the work of love and through that helping redeem these people.
00:20:27
Speaker
Yeah, there seems to be a lot of story points in the story that just line up with the world's story.
00:20:34
Speaker
Right, yeah.
00:20:35
Speaker
With Christ interacting with it.
00:20:36
Speaker
Right, and there would be lots of that.
00:20:37
Speaker
So I'm kind of thinking Belle more than any of these people, though she doesn't die.
00:20:41
Speaker
Okay, I'm going to throw another one out there that reminds me then.
00:20:45
Speaker
Harry Potter.
00:20:47
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:20:49
Speaker
I don't like that either.
00:20:51
Speaker
I don't either.
00:20:51
Speaker
And it's not because I don't think Harry Potter is a great character.
00:20:54
Speaker
I have seen the movies and I will probably read the books at some point.
00:20:58
Speaker
And I think he is a very compelling character.
00:21:01
Speaker
But there's he I think it's I think it's when he's born, he technically dies and resurrects at some point he dies and resurrects and saves people from this evil dark lord.
00:21:13
Speaker
At the end, he like... At the end that he does?
00:21:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:16
Speaker
I can't remember when he does.
00:21:17
Speaker
I mean... Oh, that's right.
00:21:18
Speaker
Yes.
00:21:18
Speaker
Did he die?
00:21:19
Speaker
I don't know if he technically died or not.
00:21:22
Speaker
I'm not a Harry Potter expert.
00:21:23
Speaker
Right.
00:21:23
Speaker
I've read it.
00:21:24
Speaker
I've not watched it.
00:21:25
Speaker
Right.
00:21:26
Speaker
But yeah.
00:21:27
Speaker
But I'm like...
00:21:29
Speaker
And it's like these examples that come up that when I hear Christ figure, maybe I just have a... Yeah, yeah.
00:21:35
Speaker
Some are just definitely more diluted than others.
00:21:40
Speaker
And it's like, yeah, sure.
00:21:42
Speaker
Do you mean diluted or diluted as in delusional?
00:21:46
Speaker
Oh, I mean, kind of both, I guess.
00:21:51
Speaker
Savage.
00:21:53
Speaker
But I think the Jesus, the story of dying and resurrecting just probably hits a lot of things.
00:22:01
Speaker
Right.
00:22:02
Speaker
J.K.
00:22:02
Speaker
Rowling probably wouldn't have written that if there wasn't a Christ already.
00:22:07
Speaker
Sure.
00:22:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:09
Speaker
But I don't think a death and a resurrection automatically...
00:22:12
Speaker
means christ figure and i think a lot of times harry potter is a he's a jerk a lot he is that's not like jesus he improves as a person yeah he is yeah yeah i think there's a lot compelling going on with his character but i wouldn't look at that pantheon of no and be like he's the christ figure maybe it's that redemptive piece
00:22:35
Speaker
That's what they call, that's what they hang their head on?
00:22:38
Speaker
No, that's what I'm wondering if that's what my hang-up is, where it's like I don't see Superman redeeming people.
00:22:46
Speaker
I don't see Harry Potter redeeming people.
00:22:48
Speaker
That's why the bell is closer.
00:22:49
Speaker
I know, like you made a good case for it.
00:22:52
Speaker
Thank you.
00:22:54
Speaker
I want to try to think of it there's more.
00:22:56
Speaker
Sure.
00:22:56
Speaker
But I might just be silent, and so that's not good podcasting.
00:23:00
Speaker
Hey podcast, do you try and do this thing?
00:23:06
Speaker
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00:23:08
Speaker
Have you thought about this service?
00:23:12
Speaker
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00:23:21
Speaker
Again, that's the code below.
00:23:24
Speaker
Do you have any others?
00:23:27
Speaker
I have two others.
00:23:28
Speaker
Okay.
00:23:28
Speaker
That came to mind.
00:23:30
Speaker
Um, and I had, I had, I have a couple other questions after, after those two.
00:23:35
Speaker
One was one that Shay mentioned.
00:23:37
Speaker
Okay.
00:23:37
Speaker
Which weirded me out.
00:23:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:40
Speaker
ET.
00:23:41
Speaker
Have you ever heard this before?
00:23:44
Speaker
I feel like I have.
00:23:46
Speaker
Go on, though.
00:23:47
Speaker
So apparently E.T.
00:23:48
Speaker
is a Christ figure because he comes down from out in the sky.
00:23:53
Speaker
He has a believer, which is Elliot.
00:23:55
Speaker
He dies and comes back to life.
00:23:58
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:23:58
Speaker
He heals Elliot by touching him.
00:24:00
Speaker
He tells Elliot he's always going to remain with him, and then he ascends.
00:24:05
Speaker
Sure.
00:24:07
Speaker
Sure.
00:24:07
Speaker
But it feels just so surface level.
00:24:10
Speaker
Right.
00:24:10
Speaker
Yeah, I'm jiving with you on that.
00:24:13
Speaker
But that E.T.
00:24:15
Speaker
's a weirdo, though.
00:24:17
Speaker
That's not my God.
00:24:18
Speaker
He is a weirdo.
00:24:19
Speaker
Jesus was never weird.
00:24:22
Speaker
Right.
00:24:23
Speaker
But no, I just thought, like, he's just a cute little dude, you know?
00:24:27
Speaker
There's definitely...
00:24:30
Speaker
Like, yeah, Christology story points there.
00:24:34
Speaker
Right.
00:24:35
Speaker
But again, I feel like even if the story point maps to that doesn't necessarily mean it's a Christ figure.
00:24:42
Speaker
I don't see... I see a lot of beautiful things in E.T.
00:24:45
Speaker
I loved E.T.
00:24:46
Speaker
growing up.
00:24:47
Speaker
I think he brings some, like, emotional healing to the situation he's in just by being a cute little guy that is nice to Elliot, you know, and brings some whimsy with him.
00:24:59
Speaker
But...
00:25:00
Speaker
I don't think that that's Christ, you know?
00:25:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:05
Speaker
Hmm.
00:25:06
Speaker
I want to kind of want to guess what the one that you've experienced that made you kind of feel like it's, it's incredibly on brand.
Aragorn's Christ-like Attributes
00:25:13
Speaker
It's, it's so on brand that it should, it would probably elicit an illicit an eye roll.
00:25:20
Speaker
Oh, well I was thinking something on brand, but maybe not as on brand as you're talking.
00:25:25
Speaker
It is Lord of the Rings.
00:25:26
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:25:27
Speaker
Yes.
00:25:28
Speaker
It's Aragorn in Lord of the Rings.
00:25:30
Speaker
Okay.
00:25:31
Speaker
Which is interesting because in the movies, I'm fairly anti...
00:25:36
Speaker
any of the Christ figures you can draw from the movies, except maybe making an argument for Frodo as suffering servant, but I don't think that's as strong in the movies.
00:25:45
Speaker
I think in the movies, those characters are immensely relatable.
00:25:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:50
Speaker
And I think, not that you can't relate to Christ, but I think that they're just, they are not elevated to a degree.
00:25:58
Speaker
Right.
00:25:58
Speaker
Part of what makes them relatable is their faults.
00:26:00
Speaker
Right.
00:26:01
Speaker
Right.
00:26:02
Speaker
But in the book, Aragorn doesn't have his angsty, oh, should I be the king or should I not thing that he has in the movies, which I really enjoy in the movies and relate to.
00:26:11
Speaker
But in the books, it's just like, yep, I'm the king and it's going to be great.
00:26:16
Speaker
I'm just waiting for the right moment.
00:26:17
Speaker
And then the moment arrives.
00:26:19
Speaker
And that moment, I've found to be stirring and feel like something Christ-like to me.
00:26:27
Speaker
Him marching to Menas Tirith.
00:26:30
Speaker
with the army of the dead saving Minas Tirith, and then especially the halls of healing chapter where he is just tending to the wounded afterwards.
00:26:40
Speaker
And there's this beautiful line, the hands of the king are the hands of a healer, which is probably not something you would ever really write about a king in the real world.
00:26:51
Speaker
I think most world leaders I would not call a healer, you know, but our ultimate king is supposed to be a healer.
00:26:59
Speaker
That's the defining thing.
00:27:02
Speaker
Interesting, because that resonates with the heart of Christ, but doesn't have those traditional Christ figures, story points.
00:27:10
Speaker
There's no death or resurrection point.
00:27:13
Speaker
I mean, there is for Gandalf.
00:27:14
Speaker
If you're going by, there's often a traditional...
00:27:17
Speaker
sort of reading of Tolkien that there's a threefold Christ figure, which is Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo.
00:27:24
Speaker
Where Frodo's the suffering servant, Gandalf is the sort of divine prophet, and he has the death and resurrection thing, and Aragorn is the king, so you have priest, prophet, king.
00:27:35
Speaker
And those are three offices which Christ holds.
00:27:37
Speaker
That's interesting.
00:27:38
Speaker
I think it's interesting.
00:27:39
Speaker
I don't buy it all.
00:27:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:41
Speaker
I don't really think of Gandalf as a Christ figure.
00:27:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:45
Speaker
I think when I was a kid, I was like, oh, he's the Disneyland of the story.
00:27:48
Speaker
Kind of like Elijah more.
00:27:50
Speaker
Yes.
00:27:50
Speaker
Elijah's a good one.
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, he's very Elijah.
00:27:56
Speaker
But yeah, there was something in, I just think, Tolkien's prose and probably his Catholicism seeping into it.
00:28:05
Speaker
Right.
00:28:05
Speaker
Or just that description of how
00:28:08
Speaker
Aragorn treated his people felt like a Christ figure in that moment.
00:28:11
Speaker
Yeah, because like Tolkien had the truth.
00:28:15
Speaker
And so that truth just naturally seeped into his work like that.
00:28:22
Speaker
Okay.
00:28:22
Speaker
I don't know how this applies to Belle, but this is an interesting thing that all of the other, well, okay.
00:28:27
Speaker
Harry Potter, J.K.
00:28:28
Speaker
Rowling is a Christian.
00:28:31
Speaker
Is my understanding.
00:28:32
Speaker
She is?
00:28:33
Speaker
Yep.
00:28:34
Speaker
I didn't know.
00:28:35
Speaker
hear that that's my understanding that she is a christian or at least was when she wrote them um so i believe that's true that would be great if she was but all those other characters were not written by christians that was not where their origination came from so the christ figure thing has almost been thrust upon them
00:28:57
Speaker
Whereas for Tolkien, it seems like maybe that is coming out in his work a bit more as opposed to it being thrust on it after the fact.
00:29:06
Speaker
I don't know how that intersects with Beauty and the Beast because that's like a folk tale.
00:29:12
Speaker
Exactly.
00:29:13
Speaker
Where, I mean, that was in like Christendom was like a very strong part of the Middle Eastern world.
00:29:22
Speaker
So, but that is interesting where that's coming from.
00:29:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:28
Speaker
I think it, I think it infuses the world, like I said, but probably especially if you have relationship with Christ and you know the truth, it will infuse your work.
00:29:41
Speaker
And I think, I think you make a really good point early on when you're talking about Christ figures in general, like you talking about Christ figures, um,
00:29:57
Speaker
before uh christ like that it's just baked into the world and i think that that's very true like i look at we're in the middle of spring right yeah exactly the world is resurrecting exactly yeah like god has sort of just built this in right and so it would come out in our work right um
00:30:18
Speaker
But I think sometimes to try and draw those comparisons, and I don't think so in the case of Belle.
00:30:23
Speaker
You won me over with Belle.
00:30:24
Speaker
Well done.
00:30:25
Speaker
Thanks, buddy.
00:30:27
Speaker
But I think sometimes to draw those comparisons both cheapens the character and cheapens Christ.
00:30:32
Speaker
You know?
00:30:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:34
Speaker
It just feels like that's not all that Christ was.
00:30:37
Speaker
He's so much more.
00:30:38
Speaker
I think you kind of moved me in your direction, too.
00:30:41
Speaker
Winning.
00:30:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:44
Speaker
We've moved each other.
00:30:45
Speaker
Now are we on opposite ends?
00:30:47
Speaker
Have we done a switcheroo?
00:30:48
Speaker
I don't think so.
00:30:49
Speaker
I think we're in the happy middle.
00:30:51
Speaker
We are now enlightened centrists.
00:30:55
Speaker
Now we can laud that over everybody.
00:31:00
Speaker
I want to ask about another one, but not talk in too much detail about it.
00:31:04
Speaker
Okay.
00:31:05
Speaker
How do you feel about Peace Like a River?
00:31:07
Speaker
Yes.
00:31:09
Speaker
Are you thinking about... Well, wouldn't it be anyone else to think about?
00:31:16
Speaker
Um, yes.
00:31:18
Speaker
Okay.
00:31:19
Speaker
Um, Leif Anger.
00:31:21
Speaker
I would have talked about Leif on my episode about, um, art that got me through 2024.
00:31:25
Speaker
He's, he is a great author wrote, um, I cheerfully refuse Virgil Wander and a book that Nate and I both read recently called peace like a river.
00:31:35
Speaker
Um, Oh, there is something compelling about a character there.
00:31:41
Speaker
Um, that,
00:31:43
Speaker
that is fairly Christ-like.
00:31:47
Speaker
I don't know if I would say he's a Christ figure, but part of that is how real to life that feels.
00:31:53
Speaker
Right.
00:31:53
Speaker
And I think that's maybe part of it.
00:31:56
Speaker
I think part of it tracks on.
00:31:59
Speaker
And part of it is like you're talking about Aragorn is just this father figure.
00:32:07
Speaker
He's a father figure because he's the father.
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:11
Speaker
Just how he exudes Christ-likeness.
00:32:15
Speaker
Sure.
00:32:16
Speaker
That seems... Yeah, I don't know if I would call that a Christ figure, but there is... No.
00:32:20
Speaker
There's a good Christ-likeness about that.
00:32:23
Speaker
But that feels like a term we could use about...
00:32:26
Speaker
any like any believer you know there's christ likeness about you right i think there's something about that story that pushes it a little bit further i think so but yes um we should talk more about this off air yeah we won't potentially spoil it for somebody we know who's reading it yeah um highly recommend peace like a river definitely give it a read it's a beautiful beautiful work um
00:32:54
Speaker
So I had two other thoughts that we can just briefly chat about.
00:32:58
Speaker
Are there ways you think in which artists should strive to...
00:33:04
Speaker
If they're trying to create a Christ figure to do it well, so it isn't shallow, so it doesn't cheapen Christ, and it also allows that character to flourish, are there ways you've seen it done really well?
00:33:14
Speaker
Maybe Peace Like a River is the example, and we just have to refer people to that.
00:33:20
Speaker
Right, right.
00:33:21
Speaker
Or Lord of the Rings, but you've probably heard me recommend Lord of the Rings too much at this point, so...
00:33:30
Speaker
I mean, I like Aslan a lot.
00:33:32
Speaker
I think Aslan is great.
00:33:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:34
Speaker
What I love about Aslan is it feels like you take the essence of Christ and
00:33:43
Speaker
But you don't... I mean, Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, obviously, there is a sort of passion narrative there.
00:33:49
Speaker
Right, but even beyond that.
00:33:50
Speaker
But beyond that, it feels very Christ-like.
00:33:54
Speaker
He is operating in the story as I believe Christ would.
00:33:58
Speaker
And it's not even really fair to say he's a Christ figure because within the world of the story, he's just Christ.
00:34:05
Speaker
Right.
00:34:06
Speaker
So if we're going off of this...
00:34:07
Speaker
Oh, I thought of another one.
00:34:08
Speaker
Oh, what is your other one?
00:34:11
Speaker
Paralandra.
00:34:12
Speaker
Ransom.
00:34:13
Speaker
And Paralandra, they're very purposely...
00:34:18
Speaker
made him an echo of Christ such that C.S.
00:34:23
Speaker
Lewis' second book in the space trilogy, we've talked about it here before, but where he has to come and essentially keep humanity from falling.
00:34:34
Speaker
So it's a different story than Earth's story because we did fall.
00:34:39
Speaker
But they have...
00:34:42
Speaker
Again, like it doesn't completely track on, but it's this dude whose name is Ransom.
00:34:50
Speaker
And so he has to kind of in a way ransom himself like Christ ransomed himself and do battle literally with the devil.
00:34:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:59
Speaker
And then things get just kind of on the nose towards the end of the book such that him and the devil character, which may really be the devil, bites his heel.
00:35:12
Speaker
And it's like forever wounded there.
00:35:16
Speaker
And then he kills him in the end by crushing his head.
00:35:19
Speaker
Classic.
00:35:20
Speaker
Love it.
00:35:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:21
Speaker
And there's kind of a descending into hell and coming then up to the top of the mountain kind of thing.
00:35:28
Speaker
So very much...
00:35:30
Speaker
echoes of the story and of like biblical things like those verses like you will crush your here yeah but you hear but you'll crush his head but it wouldn't say and the character ransom would not like deign to say at all that he is you know christ but i think he humbly like recognizes that he's being used in a role like that sure
00:35:54
Speaker
I have an interesting thought theologically and in like a spiritual formation exercise, but I don't think we have time to do it on the podcast.
Embodying Christ-like Qualities
00:36:05
Speaker
So I may just, I'm going to throw it out there and we can all think about it.
00:36:08
Speaker
Let's think about it.
00:36:09
Speaker
Because one of the things that came up in my strong objection to Christ as I was thinking about this is,
00:36:17
Speaker
I was like, nobody can really be a figure of Christ, I felt like.
00:36:23
Speaker
And then I had this little thing in the back of my head that was like, but John, the church is supposed to be the body of Christ.
00:36:29
Speaker
We're the hands and feet of Christ to the world.
00:36:31
Speaker
And I was like, oh, shoot.
00:36:33
Speaker
We're all supposed to be Christ figures, Christians, little Christs.
00:36:38
Speaker
Which was an interesting challenge.
00:36:39
Speaker
I think I'm just doing the pendulum swing of life as you do.
00:36:42
Speaker
But we've talked off air.
00:36:44
Speaker
I can't remember if I've talked...
00:36:46
Speaker
Off air, on air.
00:36:47
Speaker
We're never on air.
00:36:50
Speaker
Live.
00:36:50
Speaker
You can call in right now.
00:36:52
Speaker
I don't know if I've talked about it on the podcast before, but I've over the last couple of years, I think especially year, year and a half, been doing this journey of trying to.
00:37:07
Speaker
identify less with Christ in the sense of when I did Cotton Patch, I tended to, that character was so rich and it really revolutionized my spiritual life.
00:37:20
Speaker
But then I would find myself when I was reading scripture, just putting myself in the place of Christ, like identifying with that part of the story.
00:37:26
Speaker
And I'm like, hang on, I have to find myself in other parts of this story.
00:37:30
Speaker
And I'm wondering, maybe this is just a thing I'm realizing now for my own spiritual life.
00:37:34
Speaker
I'm wondering if God is nudging me back the other direction to say, okay, yes, you are not Jesus, John.
00:37:40
Speaker
He's your older brother.
00:37:41
Speaker
He's gone before you.
00:37:43
Speaker
But reflect on that story.
00:37:44
Speaker
What is it that makes something a Christ figure?
00:37:47
Speaker
If there's something in a story that makes something a Christ figure, what are those things?
00:37:52
Speaker
Is that fruit that's showing in my life?
00:37:54
Speaker
Because I'm a member of the body of Christ, I'm meant to follow after him.
00:37:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:58
Speaker
I'm not going to literally die and come back to life.
00:38:02
Speaker
Well, will you?
00:38:04
Speaker
Oh, dang, I will.
00:38:05
Speaker
Shoot, you've dropped me.
00:38:09
Speaker
I will not do so in the specific context of doing it for people's sins and redeeming the world.
00:38:15
Speaker
But what are little ways that I can die, quote unquote, and redeem, quote unquote, things?
00:38:22
Speaker
How can I be about, how can I join in God's redemptive work where I'm not achieving it, but he's already working and I can die to myself and be about his redemptive work through his enabling?
00:38:34
Speaker
What are ways in which I can be meek, in which I can be a servant to the world?
00:38:38
Speaker
What are ways in which I can speak truth to those who need to hear that truth?
00:38:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:44
Speaker
Not in the place of Christ, but as this sort of lesser representative figure.
00:38:53
Speaker
And you have the spirit in you.
00:38:55
Speaker
You have what he had in him.
00:38:58
Speaker
You have in you.
00:39:00
Speaker
And I think we don't realize the magnitude of that.
00:39:04
Speaker
Often so, but the same spirit which rose Jesus from the dead lives in you.
00:39:09
Speaker
Lives in us to work in the world.
00:39:14
Speaker
And there is that line that Jesus says that still baffles me where he says, you will do greater things with the spirit in you than I've done.
00:39:22
Speaker
Right.
00:39:22
Speaker
Which I'm like, not all the way, Lord, because you redeemed us.
00:39:27
Speaker
I don't know what that means either.
00:39:28
Speaker
I don't think you can get greater than Calvary.
00:39:31
Speaker
But...
00:39:32
Speaker
And the resurrection.
00:39:33
Speaker
Yeah, it's a talk about his body through history.
00:39:37
Speaker
We'll do all these mini deeds, but I don't know.
00:39:40
Speaker
But it's a crazy, hopeful, radical thing he's saying.
00:39:45
Speaker
Yeah, and when you're...
00:39:49
Speaker
Doing it right is not a prideful thing.
00:39:52
Speaker
Like, look at me.
00:39:53
Speaker
I am as God.
00:39:56
Speaker
Right.
00:39:56
Speaker
Because it can be a humbling thing that, oh, this is good stuff coming out of me.
00:40:03
Speaker
That's not me.
00:40:05
Speaker
Right.
00:40:05
Speaker
And that's very...
00:40:08
Speaker
comforting that the spirit then is working when you when you experience that like if this was just me operating in my normal state this is would not be how i'm responding but i think i have a spirit in me because i'm responding this way yeah
00:40:24
Speaker
and that's good on the spirit and how blessed and reassuring that he is in fact working in you that's beautiful i feel like i've i feel like i've been experienced some of experiencing some of that like leading up to the baby because you know pregnancy is a whole thing and i feel like i in my humanness am not i i i am i don't
00:40:48
Speaker
know that I'm naturally gentle and naturally able to like just take these things and go with it and I know that there's a lot of things that just because of the life that I've led could like happen and I could be like lunch up anxiety time you know and right but somehow I feel like through the spirit and grace of God he's just been getting me through and it's just beautiful to see so good God at work being able to use someone as his representative in that way oh
00:41:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:16
Speaker
As his hands and feet and as his son.
00:41:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:21
Speaker
That's beautiful.
00:41:23
Speaker
So we should think about what are those Christ figure things?
00:41:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:27
Speaker
And again, it doesn't come by just doing it through our own efforts.
00:41:31
Speaker
It's through the Spirit.
00:41:32
Speaker
Through the Spirit and getting closer to Christ and the Spirit by looking to Christ, spending time with Him.
00:41:40
Speaker
And that's how Christ was who He was, other than by being who He was.
00:41:43
Speaker
But He spent so much time with the Father.
00:41:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:48
Speaker
Wonderful.
00:41:49
Speaker
Any other thoughts before we... I think that's all right.
00:41:52
Speaker
Awesome.
00:41:53
Speaker
Cool.
00:41:54
Speaker
Well, thank you guys so much for listening.
00:41:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:58
Speaker
Let us know, are there any Christ figures in art that you love?
00:42:01
Speaker
Do you think that I... I guess, Nate, because we've landed on the same similar places, at least.
00:42:07
Speaker
Do you think we're completely wrong about Christ figures?
00:42:09
Speaker
How do you understand that?
00:42:10
Speaker
And are there Christ figures where you're like, this character...
00:42:13
Speaker
Yeah, we could talk about it in a future episode.
00:42:15
Speaker
We could do a second Christ figures episode.
00:42:17
Speaker
Or even just a little blurb.
00:42:19
Speaker
Just a little rehash.
00:42:20
Speaker
This person had this thought.
00:42:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:22
Speaker
That's true.
00:42:23
Speaker
I can share your thoughts on the podcast.
00:42:25
Speaker
Nate has great ideas.
00:42:26
Speaker
But that would be...
00:42:28
Speaker
Really fun.
00:42:28
Speaker
Or just characters where you feel like they echo Christ in some way.
00:42:32
Speaker
Kind of like what we were talking about with Peace Like a River.
00:42:34
Speaker
We're like, we don't know if he's totally a Christ figure, but my gosh, there's some beautiful Christ likeness to him.
00:42:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:41
Speaker
If you enjoyed the podcast, we would love it if you shared, if you...
00:42:46
Speaker
Left a review.
00:42:47
Speaker
That really helps.
00:42:48
Speaker
Helps us know if we're doing good things or if we need to improve in other things.
00:42:52
Speaker
Helps more people learn about it, too.
00:42:54
Speaker
It does.
00:42:54
Speaker
Because of the algorithm.
00:42:55
Speaker
Because of the algorithm.
00:42:56
Speaker
We talked about that last episode a little bit.
00:42:59
Speaker
But thank you, guys.
00:43:00
Speaker
We're so grateful for the people who do tune in and listen every other week when I'm consistent with the uploads.
00:43:07
Speaker
And it does just mean so much.
00:43:09
Speaker
And we are so glad to be able to just share these conversations and share this time with you.
00:43:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:14
Speaker
That's beautiful.
00:43:16
Speaker
Have a good week.
00:43:17
Speaker
Yeah.