Transcript
Speaker: Hey friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John the host and today I'm excited to welcome onto the podcast Erin McDonald.
Speaker: Erin actually reached out to me to chat.
Speaker: She'd listened to the podcast, knew about Artists of the Way and wanted to connect.
Speaker: And as I just learned a little bit more about what she did in the theater world here in West Michigan, the things she's involved in.
Speaker: I thought they were cool and wanted to talk to her about them.
Speaker: So Erin has a degree in theater.
Speaker: She works for the Salvation Army in their creative arts ministry, does a lot of teaching in music and theater there, which was really exciting to hear about.
Speaker: And she also works with Muskegon Civic Theater.
Speaker: She works primarily as a scenic designer there and has worked with accessibility in theater through some of the sets that she's designed.
Speaker: So I had a lot of fun picking her brain about that as well.
Speaker: This is a really fun discussion.
Speaker: I had a great time hearing about some of these cool things going on in West Michigan theater that I didn't know about.
Speaker: And I'm really excited to share them with you.
Speaker: Thanks for listening.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: So thank you for coming on, Erin.
Speaker: How's your week been going so far?
Speaker: What have you been up to?
Speaker: Oh, what have I been up to?
Speaker: Also, thank you for inviting me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I have been...
Speaker: Painting, writing, watching movies, really just being a normal person.
Speaker: There you go.
Speaker: Good things to fill your time with.
Speaker: Is there any creative projects you're working on right now, especially?
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Okay, so the projects that I can talk about right now, because I have a lot of stuff in the works...
Speaker: Right now, I am doing the scenic design for Epic Proportions up at Muskegon Civic Theater.
Speaker: And outside of the arts world, I am a part of the International Social Justice Girls cohort for the next two years with the Salvation Army.
Speaker: Oh, cool.
Speaker: What kind of work?
Speaker: I haven't heard a lot about that program.
Speaker: So what kind of work is the Salvation Army looking to do there?
Speaker: So I am a part of a cohort that has girls from all over the world.
Speaker: And we are invested in social justice issues.
Speaker: And we're modeled after the UN, which is super cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right now, I'm working on a design project for the 16 Days of Activism, which will be later this year.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker: So does that, I guess, how long have you been involved in that cohort?
Speaker: So I saw something online a few months ago and I was like, you know what?
Speaker: This seems like a good idea.
Speaker: So I've only been a part of this cohort for about a month.
Speaker: We've had one meeting all together internationally, which is kind of cool because...
Speaker: I'm over here drinking my coffee at 8am, whereas there are other girls in the cohort from India who are going to be having dinner soon.
Speaker: So it's really, the time zones are very interesting.
Speaker: But the fact that we can find some sort of time frame altogether to just sit down, it's kind of cool.
Speaker: That is really neat.
Speaker: Have you found, you mentioned you're working on a project with it.
Speaker: Have you found your artistic skills lending themselves to that cohort?
Speaker: Or does that feel like that's more kind of a separate part of your personality or calling and work that you do?
Speaker: So jumping into like how artistry and faith all meld together, I actually have a pretty good story about this.
Speaker: So I went to school for theater.
Speaker: Like I have a theater degree and a big list of what all that means.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I was in a portfolio development class as the part of like the design part of my degree.
Speaker: And we'd give presentations every now and then.
Speaker: And there's a presentation that we're supposed to give of like, where do we want to see ourselves in like five, 10, 15 years.
Speaker: And I went into undergrad knowing
Speaker: that I love art and I love the Jesus stuff, but that's not entirely how the world works.
Speaker: So I get up there and I'm presenting this thing and I'm like, guys,
Speaker: my art and my faith are tied together and I cannot untie them.
Speaker: And of course I'm, I'm standing up there.
Speaker: I already hate giving presentations, but I'm standing up there and I am ready to get stones thrown at me.
Speaker: I'm ready to get socially ostracized for like the next year and a half of college.
Speaker: And then the rest of my classmates, they're like, then don't untie them.
Speaker: Don't try.
Speaker: That's,
Speaker: That right there, the fact that your art and your faith are so tied together, that's something that makes you unique.
Speaker: And I wasn't expecting that out of my classmates.
Speaker: And then I had this realization, it's like, oh, maybe they're right.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: That's fantastic.
Speaker: What's that journey been like for you kind of authentically or trying to pursue how to authentically keep those together?
Speaker: Has it ever felt like one has tried to control the other more or like, has it at any point felt like it's your, like the world's trying to pigeonhole you into one of the two or into maybe a way of doing that that doesn't feel authentic or has it come pretty natural to you?
Speaker: So yeah,
Speaker: I'd say middle school and high school wise, those things were a bit more separate, but then I was also an adolescent at the time.
Speaker: Whereas, because of my involvement with the Salvation Army,
Speaker: one of the things that I've been able to do is go to music and creative arts camps where your music and your faith are very much tied together.
Speaker: So even though, like I was at one point as like a 12, 13 year old, um, it just started to like grow and become more and more tied together.
Speaker: And of course, um,
Speaker: There have been times where I've been completely self-centered and gone, like, no, look at how awesome this thing that I made was.
Speaker: But I've had really good teachers and mentors beside me to go, like, take a step back.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: That's really cool.
Speaker: So let's chat a little bit about how you got involved with the Salvation Army.
Speaker: Because I at least am not overly familiar with sort of like any arts sphere that they have.
Speaker: I tend to think of like the thrift stores and Santa in front of Family Fair.
Speaker: But how did you find out about that and first get involved there?
Speaker: So this story doesn't actually start with me.
Speaker: Um...
Speaker: Actually, it could go many number of ways, but let's start the story somewhere in Des Moines, Iowa in the 1950s with my grandfather.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So my grandfather did not come from a Christian home.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: But he started to come to his local Salvation Army because of the brass bands.
Speaker: And somebody sat him down and taught him to play an instrument.
Speaker: And because of music,
Speaker: That is how he began to learn about Jesus and really that had an impact on his life.
Speaker: So then we fast forward from the 1950s to 1993 in tulip time.
Speaker: And my parents are playing in a brass band together, another Salvation Army brass band together.
Speaker: My mom is in the horn section and my dad's back in the bass section.
Speaker: And my dad...
Speaker: he leans over and says, hey, Janelle, could I borrow your valve oil?
Speaker: And of course, my mom turns back with her valve oil.
Speaker: It's like, oh, yeah, here you go.
Speaker: And then cute, take my breath away.
Speaker: And then the next year, they get married.
Speaker: And then five years later, I'm born.
Speaker: And then 25 years later, I'm
Speaker: still here and now instead of being primarily a student I'm becoming more of a teacher and a leader in that way.
Speaker: So it's not just like me showing up somewhere.
Speaker: There's a giant like family story, which is really cool because recently up at the Grand Rapids Fulton Heights Corps, we celebrated 150 years of being the first commissioned brass band in the United States.
Speaker: And during this event, because of course my grandpa comes to this, my mom's there, my brother's there.
Speaker: And to see like this three generations of music starting from, you know, one person sitting my grandpa down in like 1950 and like teaching him to play.
Speaker: And it's really a testament to how, how God works.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: in some really, really awesome ways.
Speaker: Um, it's just breathtaking.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The faithfulness through that family story is amazing.
Speaker: So did you, growing up, did you like, are there like summer camps that you would attend there?
Speaker: Were you just kind of familiar with it your whole life growing up?
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: I love summer camps so much.
Speaker: It is my favorite time of the year.
Speaker: I started going to camp when I was eight years old and I kept going to camp.
Speaker: And by the time I was 18, I was already like
Speaker: teaching at camp.
Speaker: So it's something that like, it's the highlight of my year every year.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Did you start off in music like your parents and grandparents?
Speaker: Or did you start being interested in some other form?
Speaker: Or was it more like a general arts camp?
Speaker: And then you kind of found your niche?
Speaker: So music has always been there.
Speaker: That's always been the base of my artistic expression.
Speaker: But from music, because of...
Speaker: You know, brass band, you kind of have to have very precise working fingers and I have a disability called dyspraxia, which makes it a bit difficult.
Speaker: I fell in love more with the vocal music and being able to sing.
Speaker: Um, so there's always been like the music base there, but there's also so much more than just the music.
Speaker: Um, whereas the way that I look at a piece of music is going to be different than how my younger siblings look at a piece of music.
Speaker: Like I, I'm very, um,
Speaker: like, okay, what kind of texture does this chord make?
Speaker: It's all very abstract.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, and if you were to look at some of the scores that I have, you probably think I was insane.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: No, I get that.
Speaker: There's definitely a broad stretch there.
Speaker: I feel like even for me in different artistic, uh,
Speaker: disciplines, I feel like I, so I played music growing up and theater is more, more my focus now, but I feel like theater for me tends to be a lot more abstract, whereas musically I play violin.
Speaker: And so I often am like that.
Speaker: I almost get too mechanical work, kind of like you were talking about.
Speaker: It's all about the precision of the fingers and the bow strokes and different things like that.
Speaker: So it's interesting how those forms of expression can play on different parts of our brain and different people can approach them differently.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, sometimes that can be how I am with vocal music as well.
Speaker: Like, I have to sing this at this time and be very precise instead of authentic, which is something that I've really been working on and struggling with.
Speaker: But knowing that
Speaker: You know, I am unique.
Speaker: I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Speaker: How I interpret a song or a monologue is going to be different than someone else interprets a song or a monologue.
Speaker: And that's completely okay.
Speaker: I think that's a really hard thing to learn as an artist, at least for me.
Speaker: I know I feel very self-conscious about my own singing voice.
Speaker: So it's been very hard for me to learn that like, okay, if a director picked me for something...
Speaker: then the way I'm doing it, if they're not telling me, John, it's awful, we have to redo this whole thing.
Speaker: Like, that's okay.
Speaker: And so I can just go out there and do it and let it be what it is.
Speaker: And I don't have to get too caught up in it being just so perfect by the time we perform.
Speaker: Obviously, we want to strive for excellence.
Speaker: But there's a difference between excellence versus like this, you know, is down to the T, perfect, matching all of the...
Speaker: Just spot on.
Speaker: So yeah, I resonate with that a lot.
Speaker: How did you end up making the transition from music to theater?
Speaker: Was it one day you woke up and decided to try it or was it kind of a more, what's the word?
Speaker: Subtle is the only word I'm thinking of, but that's not what I mean.
Speaker: Gradual.
Speaker: There we go.
Speaker: Kind of a gradual thing into that.
Speaker: Well, you see, there is this art form.
Speaker: It's a bit obscure.
Speaker: You may have never heard of it.
Speaker: But if you have a Venn diagram that says music on one side and theater on the other, and you mash those two things together, you have this thing called musical theater.
Speaker: Whoa.
Speaker: Whoa!
Speaker: Insane!
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: So did you...
Speaker: Did you like grow up listening to musical theater or was it more like, I can sing.
Speaker: Let me, let me go out and try this, try this acting thing.
Speaker: Um, so it was definitely more of a by proxy learning to enjoy musical theater.
Speaker: It's a very strange art form by the way.
Speaker: But, you know, we would have little, little, like, children's musicals at the church.
Speaker: And I'd have to give my younger sister the credit of, you know, really putting musicals into our house.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Like, I think the first musical that I was, like, really exposed to was Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat.
Speaker: 1999 with Donny Osmond.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: We watched it on DVD going on down to Disney World.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: And so it's like, whoa, this is kind of cool, but also kind of weird.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: But that's when the actual musical theater bug started to kind of get in there.
Speaker: But my younger sister, Deegan, she loved Annie, loved The Music Man, Oklahoma, some of those classics.
Speaker: Wicked.
Speaker: Wicked's a big one for us.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Have you guys seen Wicked any of the times it's come through?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: We saw Wicked back in 2013.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And that was pretty awesome.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: Are you, because I've heard mixed reviews on this, are you looking forward to the movie or are you dreading the movie?
Speaker: I'm still relatively mid about the movie.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: It looks like it's going to be good.
Speaker: I'm excited for Cynthia Erivo's vocal performance.
Speaker: And Jonathan Bailey's just good looking, so he makes a good Fiero.
Speaker: I hope that it's good.
Speaker: But I can't promise that it's good.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because art is subjective.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: Yeah, some people might love it.
Speaker: I know for me, it'll probably be the first time I'm able to really engage with it just because I have never been able to catch it when it's come through.
Speaker: So I'm looking forward to watching it for that level, just on accessibility alone to be able to see the whole story.
Speaker: Yeah, accessibility.
Speaker: Plus with film, you can reach a wider audience with film.
Speaker: Not everybody can afford the
Speaker: $50, $75, $100 theater tickets.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: So let's circle back to Salvation Army.
Speaker: Now you've kind of, you've talked about growing up, going to summer camp, and you've taught there since.
Speaker: Was there any time where it was like a question of like, am I going to continue teaching here?
Speaker: Or did that kind of just happen automatically for you?
Speaker: And how did you kind of get where you are today as a teacher there?
Speaker: It kind of just transitioned into that.
Speaker: So right after high school, I did not technically have a plan of, okay, I'm going to go to college to do this and graduate and have an awesome life.
Speaker: I needed some time.
Speaker: I needed to grow up a little bit.
Speaker: And in that first year, I
Speaker: I was asked by my teacher who wrote a original musical with one of his friends called a long way off, which is, uh, based around the story of the prodigal son.
Speaker: Uh, and he asked me to like audition and I'm like me, but, um, I got,
Speaker: I got cast, of course, and had this really great experience of working on an original musical and recording a cast album, which still blows my mind that I was able to do that at 18 years old.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And because I was one of the youngest in the cast, I had all of these...
Speaker: amazing people to like go to for advice and You know really support me as I was
Speaker: going from teenhood high school angst into this more mature adulthood.
Speaker: And then from a long way off, I was asked to apply for a summer missions team that's also in the Salvation Army, a specialized team called the Creative Arts Service Team, acronym CAST.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And then I did three summers of that going around to different cores, Salvation Army churches, community centers around the Midwest.
Speaker: There was even one season where we went down to Uruguay in Argentina.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: So I've been doing a lot of this stuff.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What kind of stuff did you guys perform in that cast program?
Speaker: So with cast, the big thing that we did was a thing called Jesus Theater, which is a half-hour choreodrama that goes from creation to the end.
Speaker: It's insane.
Speaker: I've done three of them, and...
Speaker: It's a good acting exercise because in Jesus Theatre there's a different theme or a different prop to illustrate the gospel story.
Speaker: And, you know, because we don't use words or we use very few words, there's like backing narration.
Speaker: Like, it's able to even just transcend language.
Speaker: Speaking of transcending language, doing Jesus Theater in Spanish in 2019, that was interesting because I do understand enough Spanish where I won't get lost.
Speaker: But not everything matches up in the translations, so you really have to pay more attention.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: That is interesting.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker: So was that largely you would perform those on like Sunday mornings for churches or were there like special events as you guys went around?
Speaker: So we've done them at camp for come to Jesus night or meet cast.
Speaker: We've done them Sunday mornings.
Speaker: We've done them on the street.
Speaker: My poor knees.
Speaker: With the concrete, yeah.
Speaker: Literally anywhere you can just set up a couple of stage boxes and a boom box.
Speaker: A speaker, not a boom box, a speaker.
Speaker: We're throwing it back.
Speaker: We're getting retro with this.
Speaker: That's fascinating.
Speaker: What's been some of the response to that from people who've had a chance to see it?
Speaker: Oh, man.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: So I have a lot of good stories from Jesus Theater.
Speaker: Do you want me to start with the good stories or the not so good stories?
Speaker: Why don't we start with the not so good stories and then we can end with the good stories.
Speaker: Okay, so there was a Jesus Theater.
Speaker: We were in Kansas City and we had the altar call and nobody came.
Speaker: Nobody came to the altar call.
Speaker: And of course, I'm looking around at the rest of my team and going... They're just sad.
Speaker: They're despondent.
Speaker: They're like, what did we do wrong?
Speaker: And I'm thinking, maybe it's actually good that nobody came...
Speaker: Because if we have like a hundred percent success rate, that's not realistic.
Speaker: Like we even see in the Bible, like people straight up rejected Jesus, like to his face.
Speaker: And, you know, we even see like when Jesus is sending out the disciples, it's like, if they shall not receive you, shake the dust off your sandals and go somewhere else.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Those are, yeah, those are oof moments.
Speaker: I feel like that seems more like it rings more true to me with my experience in theater, and I haven't done a lot of, like, evangelistic theater.
Speaker: I know a couple other groups that do it.
Speaker: I've worked with it briefly, but I feel like so often with theater, you kind of put it out there and then you don't know if it lands.
Speaker: I think there's a lot of
Speaker: just kind of trusting God in that and hoping that he's using it as a seed.
Speaker: That's interesting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What are some other bad ones or do we have good ones now?
Speaker: We do have a good, we do have a good one.
Speaker: Still the same show, but this time it was in, it was in Northern Texas.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And we get done with the show.
Speaker: We have the altar call.
Speaker: And I hear this little voice say, I get it now.
Speaker: And just that little thing.
Speaker: And like she points to the cross and she's like, I get it now.
Speaker: And that really just warmed my heart.
Speaker: That's beautiful, man.
Speaker: And it's crazy that I think that just speaks to the power of art and putting together a good piece and letting God use it, that in just half an hour, something that is descriptively so simple as a choreodrama to narration.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: God can use it and orchestrate everything around it for it to just hit at the right moment and, and meet people where they're at and open their eyes.
Speaker: That's, that's beautiful.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And nine times out of 10, I don't know what the audience is walking in with.
Speaker: I, I don't know.
Speaker: Like, I, like, I don't know what your deal is type of thing, but then there's also that compassionate side where it's like,
Speaker: I don't know what you have to deal with in your day to day.
Speaker: So, so yeah, we get one, we get one bad story of like, Oh, shucks.
Speaker: And then we have this like, really like sweet, tiny, tiny little moment.
Speaker: That's just so good.
Speaker: That's lovely.
Speaker: And it's those tiny moments that I feel like keep you going in ministry.
Speaker: At least for me, I feel like it's not usually the huge wins that I see where I'm like, oh, yeah, that's why I do this.
Speaker: It's those small moments of like, oh, cool.
Speaker: I was there for this step for this person.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So teaching, you do a lot of teaching then through the Salvation Army.
Speaker: What's important to you about teaching?
Speaker: Why do you keep doing it?
Speaker: So...
Speaker: To quote my high school choir teacher, we learn so that we can teach.
Speaker: And I've been very, very fortunate to have good teachers for the last decade plus of my life.
Speaker: So they've seen me grow from punk little
Speaker: 13 year old that thinks she knows everything into the person I am now.
Speaker: Um... Could you remind me what the rest of the question?
Speaker: Oh, I was just wondering what's important to you about it?
Speaker: Why do you keep doing it?
Speaker: Oh, goodness.
Speaker: Why do I keep teaching?
Speaker: One, I enjoy it.
Speaker: Um... And two...
Speaker: It's about those aha moments that really get me sometimes because I can be explaining and explaining and explaining and use all the tactics, go at it from every single angle and feel absolutely defeated sometimes.
Speaker: And then just bloop.
Speaker: Oh, especially with working with teenagers.
Speaker: It's really fun.
Speaker: Yup.
Speaker: That's super fun.
Speaker: Do you guys, so when you're teaching, do you ever work on larger scale productions or is it mostly like small one act things for a summer camp?
Speaker: What kinds of things have you worked on with students?
Speaker: So mostly right now, um, very like shorter, shorter things.
Speaker: Sometimes it's, I'm just singing in a choir with my students, um, and supporting them that way.
Speaker: Sometimes, um,
Speaker: I'm right on stage in a scene next to them.
Speaker: Sometimes I'm over in like an AV booth, like playing with the lights.
Speaker: So really it's like, where do you need me?
Speaker: Okay, I'll do it.
Speaker: It might not be pretty, but my goodness, these students are going to be supported.
Speaker: There you go.
Speaker: Well, that is so important.
Speaker: Just the willingness of having somebody there who says, yes, I will serve and I will do what needs to happen and make the sacrifices for this beautiful thing and these wonderful people to be able to be showcased and do the things they love.
Speaker: Even if I'm not going to be perfect at it, I'm going to do everything I can to get them there.
Speaker: That's lovely.
Speaker: And man, I can point to so many people who...
Speaker: have been like, yeah, I'm not amazing at this, but I can, I'll show up and I'll, I'll do my best.
Speaker: Like I'm not amazing at teaching music theory, but I can sure make music theory fun and engaging.
Speaker: Um, which, which is good because music theory class can get really boring really quick.
Speaker: Yes, it can.
Speaker: So let's pivot a little bit to some of the work you've done at the Muskegon civic theater.
Speaker: How did you first get involved with them?
Speaker: So I was working a gig at another theater in West Michigan and that contract was going to expire and I needed a project for the fall.
Speaker: So I like saw something on Facebook.
Speaker: It's like, Hey, we're looking for artistic staff.
Speaker: And I was like, Hey,
Speaker: messaging and going like hey i would like to join your theater here is my resume and a snippet of my portfolio and then uh i got to design calendar girls last season which was it was an interesting play i haven't worked with
Speaker: That many adult actresses, not adult actresses, grown ladies.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I misspoke there.
Speaker: Actresses of an adult age.
Speaker: Actresses of an adult age.
Speaker: I mean, there's nudity in the show, but it's for a good cause.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: Have you... Was...
Speaker: Was scenic design a newer thing for you, or was that something you'd done some in college and were used to a little bit before?
Speaker: Fun thing about my scenic design.
Speaker: So with where I went to school, I originally went to do the theater directing and dramaturgy track.
Speaker: which is directing and a big funny word that I still don't know what it means half the time, even though I've graduated.
Speaker: But the way that the program for directing and dramaturgy was set up and the fact that I went to community college for like two years prior and got all my gen eds out of the way, I like...
Speaker: figured out in my dorm room during the pandemic like how to triple major in theater which is insane no academic advisor required I was like listen I can do this I'm going to do this and it's going to be awesome um but back to scenic design so
Speaker: I have a disability called dyspraxia.
Speaker: So you may have heard of dyslexia, which is the one with the words.
Speaker: Dyspraxia deals more with your gross and fine motor movements.
Speaker: And it presents differently in...
Speaker: anybody that has it like Daniel Radcliffe actually like we have we both have dyspraxia okay so the way that it presents itself in me it's mostly with dealing with like my lefts and my rights and which way things go and I hold my pencil a little bit differently so even like from those fine motors of like drafting and all that jazz and scenic design
Speaker: When we got to that unit in my, like, freshman level class, I'm like, I'm looking at my professor and I'm like, I can't do this.
Speaker: I can't even draw a straight line with a ruler.
Speaker: Like, because I had a professor that encouraged me and like encouraged me to stretch myself, I wound up like falling in love with scenic design and going like, I can do this.
Speaker: I understand the shapes and the colors and the line, the texture, the harmony, all that good stuff.
Speaker: I think the thing that intimidated me the most was the math in it.
Speaker: But because I had a good teacher to, you know, guide me on this way of scenic design, I got to, like,
Speaker: Not necessarily got to.
Speaker: I had the opportunity to have my first set built at my school.
Speaker: It's not my favorite one that I've ever designed, but it's a good starting point.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And now it's like two years later.
Speaker: And now I'm doing a whole lot of other scenic design stuff.
Speaker: So all of that started with a good teacher.
Speaker: Yeah, that's really beautiful.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, man, I'm having abstract thoughts that aren't words yet.
Speaker: That doesn't help for a podcast, John.
Speaker: Oh, that's okay.
Speaker: That happens to me too.
Speaker: There we go.
Speaker: I know I resonate a lot with that.
Speaker: I have not with the disability, but a similar story of being enabled by by teachers and things to pursue opportunities I maybe wouldn't have had if people weren't in that same position, funnily enough, with scenic design as well, because I did a lot of that at Master Arts Theater where I have volunteered and stuff for a long time.
Speaker: So
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's so important to look at and be willing to put in the time with people who maybe have that potential and be willing to take a risk on, you know, okay, maybe I, you know, maybe I try and give this person this chance and it doesn't pan out and I have to salvage something.
Speaker: But thinking still that it's worth it, I think is so important.
Speaker: That's lovely.
Speaker: Do you have a favorite set you've designed?
Speaker: My set designer brain is just going curious now and I'm like, well, one that I have designed or one that I want to design.
Speaker: Ooh, either one.
Speaker: Ooh, Ooh, Ooh, Ooh.
Speaker: Um, I would love to design like Les Mis or Sweeney Todd sometime.
Speaker: Les Mis, because that is the show that really pushed me into musical theater.
Speaker: Either design Les Mis or...
Speaker: play Eppening someday because that's been my dream since I was like 13.
Speaker: Or Sweeney Todd just because I really really like the 19th century.
Speaker: It's a very intriguing time for design because it's not entirely Victorian.
Speaker: And you get to play with so much because
Speaker: It's really interesting.
Speaker: And plus I love like distressing a set and making it look old.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's so much fun.
Speaker: And Sweeney Todd has all that Gothic flavor to it too.
Speaker: So you can really, I feel like have a fun time with, you know, just making everything a little, a little Gothic and askew and a little weird.
Speaker: That would be cool.
Speaker: How do we get the, uh,
Speaker: chair mechanism to dispose of carcasses.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I remember I saw, I saw Sweeney Todd and they had the, I think, I don't remember how they ended up disposing of them, but I was nervous because my good friend was going into it.
Speaker: He was the first guy that gets killed.
Speaker: The like rival barber guy.
Speaker: I was like, they better have worked this out or they're going to kill my friend.
Speaker: But it was great.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: Oh, I had another question and I forgot it.
Speaker: Oh, no, I remember it now.
Speaker: So is scenic design the main thing that you do at Muskegon Civic?
Speaker: Or is that one of the many things that you're kind of involved in?
Speaker: So specifically at Muskegon Civic, yes, it's scenic design.
Speaker: Okay, cool.
Speaker: Are there other areas of theater that you're involved in in other places around West Michigan?
Speaker: Not that.
Speaker: Currently.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: So scenic design is... And that and The Salvation Army are kind of the bread and butter right now.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Bread and butter.
Speaker: We don't have any chocolate or coffee.
Speaker: Or even fine cheeses.
Speaker: Yup.
Speaker: I did want to ask... So I did a little bit of...
Speaker: research.
Speaker: And one of the things I saw that just interest me again, as a set designer was the penguin project and beauty and the beast that you guys had just done where you were focusing on, okay, how do we set this up and, and make this accessible on stage for actors with disability, which a, I care about as I have several friends with disability people I care about with disabilities.
Speaker: And then also
Speaker: from a set designer standpoint, I'm like, cool challenge to make this work artistically and also make it so functional.
Speaker: So what was that process like going into that and trying to design that set?
Speaker: And what were some of the considerations that you had to make that, you know, maybe you knew about going in and were still challenging or that surprised you?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: Again, I love a good challenge, but that fire that really started within me of trying to make a set accessible comes from a story that a friend told me in community college.
Speaker: She's wheelchair-bound and deals with cerebral palsy, and she told me a story...
Speaker: of like wanting to be a part of a play in like middle school or high school.
Speaker: And she was told no because of her wheelchair.
Speaker: And they're like, we don't know how to get you on and off stage.
Speaker: And like, I heard this and I was furious.
Speaker: I'm like, that should have never happened to you.
Speaker: Like, Oh, I was, I was so, I was angry, like so angry.
Speaker: And because of that, that really, again, it set a fire in me.
Speaker: It's like, no, that was unjust.
Speaker: That was unfair.
Speaker: So I get a call about the Penguin Project after talking with the...
Speaker: executive director up at Muskegon Civic and like, it's like, Hey, do you want to do this?
Speaker: And I'm like, I would love to do this.
Speaker: Um, and then I did it.
Speaker: There you go.
Speaker: Perfect story done.
Speaker: That's so cool.
Speaker: Where, were there cool stories or just,
Speaker: What was that experience like then being able to watch that come together and see all these people who maybe normally wouldn't be able to participate in theater being able to and having their needs seen and cared for in that space?
Speaker: So with the Penguin Project, there are artists and mentors.
Speaker: So each artist, which is someone with a disability, has a mentor, which is someone who's usually able-bodied, neurotypical.
Speaker: So they're never on stage alone, which is so cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, one, there's designing for a space that's going to have at least 60 actors on stage.
Speaker: And like, ooh, that's a lot.
Speaker: And then trying to take into account, okay...
Speaker: mobility aids does anybody have a mobility aid is anybody missing a limb or does not have the ability to walk is anybody wheelchair bound is anybody blind um so especially like beauty and the beast because if you've seen the broadway musical or other productions of beauty and the beast everything is giant so yeah
Speaker: Like, in my research, I'm, like, seeing all this giant stuff, but then I'm, like, having to, like, whittle it down into the essence of it.
Speaker: So that set wound up having a false proscenium.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Um, and then three windows that were hung on the battens above.
Speaker: And then we got to use some very nicely rented, uh, stage drops to really solidify the space.
Speaker: There you go.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: So one of the questions that I completely missed just cause we jumped in and started talking, um,
Speaker: One of the questions I always ask people is how is God using art in your life right now?
Speaker: What are some ways that you're picking up on him using it either as you're making something or as you're just taking art in as an audience member?
Speaker: Ooh, that's a really great question.
Speaker: I'm going to have to think about that for like a minute.
Speaker: You're good.
Speaker: How is God using art in my life right now?
Speaker: And feel free to take your time.
Speaker: No pressure.
Speaker: Which medium do you want to focus on?
Speaker: That's the real question for you, John.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oof.
Speaker: I don't, man, I don't know.
Speaker: Cause there's so many.
Speaker: Is there, is there one that you feel like you're resonating with more recently or today at least?
Speaker: Today as in this 24-hour period?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: Ooh, that's a good question.
Speaker: I'll just keep asking really good questions, and then we'll answer them.
Speaker: We'll kind of dig our way down.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: Film.
Speaker: I'm going to have to say film.
Speaker: I love going back to...
Speaker: Movies that were made circa 1995 to 2005.
Speaker: Those just read very well for me.
Speaker: I like that hero.
Speaker: They have a real specific flavor.
Speaker: They have a flavor that we don't quite get today with the superhero movies or Netflix movies.
Speaker: originals um plus there's always a little bit of that nostalgia factor going in and like watching the lord of the rings trilogy yeah are there some ways recently you feel like god's been working in film for you um or one that like sticks out as having been really particularly moving recently
Speaker: I mean, I've been rewatching The Chosen for like the millionth time.
Speaker: I still need to see that.
Speaker: People keep telling me to and I keep meaning to.
Speaker: But I still have not seen it.
Speaker: So you might not get as jealous as some people, but part of the set of The Chosen is at Camp Hoblitzel in northern Texas, which is a Salvation Army camp.
Speaker: So when I was there a few years ago, between season two and season three, I got a chance to visit the set of the Capernaum set of The Chosen.
Speaker: That is super cool.
Speaker: And of course, as a scenic designer, I'm like, what's this made out of?
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: They have a scale model on display of Capernaum.
Speaker: And I'm like, I know how this was made.
Speaker: But I was like, oh.
Speaker: So I got to walk up and down the stairs.
Speaker: I'm like, this is scary.
Speaker: I'm going to fall down these really steep stairs.
Speaker: But... That's so cool.
Speaker: That is awesome.
Speaker: Yeah, I've seen like...
Speaker: I started watching it with my mom before I got married.
Speaker: I saw like three episodes and I absolutely loved it.
Speaker: And then I got married and then my wife and I were like, we should watch this together because my wife wanted to watch it too.
Speaker: And it's on our list of shows, but we've been too busy making things to get to it yet.
Speaker: So it's like...
Speaker: It's going to be coming up soon, but it feels like for the last three years, almost several podcasts I've had people on and they're like, oh, well, The Chosen is amazing.
Speaker: And I'm like, I know, but I haven't seen it.
Speaker: It's really, really good.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: That is great.
Speaker: So yeah, we're getting close to 50 minutes.
Speaker: Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker: This has been lovely.
Speaker: I've really enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker: I want to ask, closing it off, one of the questions I always ask is what resources you would recommend to people?
Speaker: Because that's been really important to me.
Speaker: I've really...
Speaker: relied on books and online sources and things like that to help myself develop and grow as an artist.
Speaker: So for you, what are some resources you'd recommend to either help people grow as artists or help deepen their walk with Christ?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, uh, if you're a fan of the liturgical calendar, um, I have both of Tish Oxenrider's, uh,
Speaker: Advent and Lent books.
Speaker: So she takes you on that journey through Advent and through Lent.
Speaker: And it's just a very, very short devotional each day.
Speaker: And something that she does is connect music and art into it.
Speaker: And so you get that Visio Divina in there.
Speaker: And sometimes I'm like, oh, this is really cool art.
Speaker: And sometimes it's, I'm like, wow, this is extremely profound.
Speaker: For anybody who doesn't know what it is, would you explain what Visio Divina is?
Speaker: Well, I believe it's a Latin term.
Speaker: So Visio, visual, and then Divina, holy.
Speaker: So it's Jesus art.
Speaker: Yeah, and kind of reflecting on it.
Speaker: It's reflecting on it.
Speaker: And because I am an artist, I'm seeing all of the things and going like, oh, why'd they choose that?
Speaker: Or like, oh, that color scheme.
Speaker: The psychological effects of a color scheme.
Speaker: I love color theory.
Speaker: That could keep us going for another 50 minutes if we talked about color theory.
Speaker: Yeah, it would, but I don't see people...
Speaker: Other resources, there's the What's Your Limp podcast hosted by Jordan Ross, who plays little James on The Chosen.
Speaker: And I've been listening to that, which is actually very eye-opening to hear and see other people's stories from the professional theater world.
Speaker: He also...
Speaker: like interviews a ton of his chosen castmates as well.
Speaker: So you get to look a little bit more inside everyone's brains.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's super cool.
Speaker: I'll, I'll have to check those out.
Speaker: Those both sound super interesting to me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Suck it audience.
Speaker: I'm, I'm, I'm getting the resources today.
Speaker: Yay.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker: This has been a lovely discussion.
Speaker: Super great to hear from you and hear all the cool things that you're doing in the West Michigan theater world.
Speaker: It's super encouraging to me to just hear what other Christians are doing in this space.
Speaker: So it's been really lovely.
Speaker: Yeah, I hope there was a logical thought that was consistent with all of my ramblings.
Speaker: Yes, there was.
Speaker: You're good.
