Transcript
Speaker: We have angels around us doing things and devils and that's the world that we're living in and where we're like babies get get born out of just like a simple simple act.
Speaker: Yup.
Speaker: and just crazy things are happening and we just are used to it.
Speaker: We're just simply used to it and we give it a name and we see that something happened before it so there's a reason to it but really we don't understand why these things happen.
Speaker: And I think that fantasy in particular, like fantasy and myths and fairy tales and I would say superheroes to an extent too because I think superheroes are the myths of our day.
Speaker: Like I think there are Hercules, you know?
Speaker: I think that these stories are uniquely positioned to help us remember the joy and the wonder in that.
Speaker: Hey friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John the host.
Speaker: Today we have my friend Nate Knobloch with us again.
Speaker: We just kind of recorded a couple episodes in one because we also wanted to talk about the topic of myths and fairy tales, these sort of fantastical stories that we always seem to create and always seem to tell each other and tell ourselves in every culture and every era.
Speaker: What wisdom is there in these stories?
Speaker: How do they help us engage with truth and beauty and mystery in ways that maybe stories of our everyday life don't?
Speaker: They are their own unique form of art, one that Nate and I both love quite a lot.
Speaker: And so it was a real joy to get to talk a little bit about those, talk about some of the things we've been reading within those genres and sort of how those have been informing our spiritual and emotional life.
Speaker: Thank you guys for joining us.
Speaker: So let's pivot topics.
Speaker: Let's do it.
Speaker: Maybe it'll be a Sapkent episode.
Speaker: Maybe it'll be the same episode.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because I have no idea how long.
Speaker: But we'll do it anyways.
Speaker: Let's keep going.
Speaker: You and I are both reading mythical fairy tale things.
Speaker: Let's talk about that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It sounded like Good Mythical Morning, which probably none of my audience knows.
Speaker: No, that's not true.
Speaker: John Taylor knows it.
Speaker: I know what it is.
Speaker: I've not watched it much.
Speaker: I haven't watched much of it either, but I think they will introduce a thing, and then they'll look at the camera, and then they'll go, let's talk about that.
Speaker: And then a chicken graphic comes down and goes, we're having a morning.
Speaker: But it's evening for us.
Speaker: But it is.
Speaker: We're about to talk about mythical stuff.
Speaker: Is there a synonym for mythical that starts with E for evening?
Speaker: Oh, enchanting.
Speaker: Good enchanting evening.
Speaker: Some enchanting evening.
Speaker: But we need a thing for good, too.
Speaker: Lovely enchanting evening?
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Lovely enchanting evening.
Speaker: Lovely enchanting evening.
Speaker: Let's discuss this.
Speaker: We've gotten to the point where this is distinct enough that it's not copyright infringement, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Let's discuss this.
Speaker: You know, if we could sue, it would be enough that they were listening to our podcast.
Speaker: Oh my gosh.
Speaker: I'm so honored they're suing us.
Speaker: Come back to the faith, guys.
Speaker: I'm so sad about your deconstruction.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: This is Artists of the Way, the podcast about art and faith, and also occasionally John lamenting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I feel that.
Speaker: I don't even really know those guys, but I feel very sad about it.
Speaker: Dude, on the topic of lament, a thing that I'm sad about.
Speaker: I'm going to lament a thing about lamenting.
Speaker: My church is going to do something called the Longest Night Liturgy, which is an entire liturgy about lament.
Speaker: I'm like, that sounds so cool.
Speaker: But it's happening on my birthday night because my birthday's on the longest night of the year.
Speaker: And I didn't put this together.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I think I'm getting together with a bunch of people during that.
Speaker: And I'm like, ah, I wanted to lament some stuff.
Speaker: Not like I haven't been doing that throughout the year, but you know, just get it all in one.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Then I don't have to lament it all next year because that would be emotionally healthy.
Speaker: Maybe God's ready for you to celebrate.
Speaker: It's a new year.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: It's a new liturgical year.
Speaker: Is that right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: On your birthday?
Speaker: No, now it is.
Speaker: It's currently, we're switching over because we just had the last Sunday of the liturgical year and then Advent is the start of the liturgical year.
Speaker: Is that right?
Speaker: Yeah, so it always starts with Advent.
Speaker: You do Advent, you do Epiphany, which is where it's like, whoa, Jesus is God, this is crazy and he's here.
Speaker: And then you do Lent where you're like, we suck.
Speaker: And then you do Easter where it's like, it's fine that we suck because Jesus is here.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Again, reductive.
Speaker: Fourth of July.
Speaker: And then fourth of July.
Speaker: Very important.
Speaker: No, you have Pentecost after Easter.
Speaker: So Easter is like a couple of weeks and then you have Pentecost and then you move into ordinary time or Trinity tide where it's like now that we've rehearsed the story of the gospel, we're living it out as a Christian people.
Speaker: And then the liturgical year ends and it's like Advent.
Speaker: Let's do it again.
Speaker: Let's look ahead to Christ coming.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: So it was very weird this Sunday because it's been a heck of a year.
Speaker: So coming up for communion, like my brain just was automatically like, it's New Year's Eve, but Christian version.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: So I'm looking back at everything.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Everything from the year was like visualized in my hand.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Coming up for Eucharist.
Speaker: That's cool that it coincides with Thanksgiving.
Speaker: I love it.
Speaker: I love Thanksgiving.
Speaker: I love the liturgical year.
Speaker: They work together so lovely.
Speaker: That's really great.
Speaker: It's great.
Speaker: It fills my soul.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's lovely.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: Don't they, doesn't the liturgy work through the Bible in like a couple years?
Speaker: Three years.
Speaker: Three years?
Speaker: There's year A, B, and C. So each year they'll do a different synoptic gospel, which is Matthew, Mark, or Luke.
Speaker: And then they'll kind of weave John throughout.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So in those three years, you should hear from the pulpit the majority of scripture.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Doing like the epistles?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I think, yeah, because you've got Old Testament, Psalms, New Testament, and then Gospel.
Speaker: Proverbs is just within Old Testament?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Proverbs is, yeah.
Speaker: Proverbs is not its unique thing.
Speaker: Only the Psalms are unique.
Speaker: That's the only poetry that we like to stand out.
Speaker: Don't want to read Song of Solomon as its own special thing.
Speaker: Every week.
Speaker: Every week.
Speaker: And it's only like six chapters, so we're just...
Speaker: By the end of the year, you're going to have it memorized.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's why we.
Speaker: Like a flock of goats, we know.
Speaker: We know.
Speaker: You're a breast or pond.
Speaker: That's why you send the kids out to Sunday school.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: For the.
Speaker: So myths and fairy tales.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Do you want to go first or do I go first?
Speaker: How are we doing this?
Speaker: I can go first.
Speaker: Go first.
Speaker: Tell me what you got.
Speaker: So last night.
Speaker: Mm hmm.
Speaker: I said to Ellie, my wife, Ellie, I'm really sorry it's been so long since I've read us a fairy tale.
Speaker: Since you've had a lovely enchanting evening.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Fairy tale.
Speaker: And I don't read her fairy tales.
Speaker: I just wanted to last night.
Speaker: And then I was disappointed because I didn't have the fairy tale that I wanted to read.
Speaker: But so I got picked up this Grimm's book from the shelf and had her just name a page number.
Speaker: Have we read this?
Speaker: Did we read a weird fairy tale from this about a donkey before?
Speaker: When?
Speaker: A few years ago.
Speaker: Because it used very archaic language for donkeys and chickens and it was weird.
Speaker: Pfft.
Speaker: I just am like, was this with Nate?
Speaker: Because I read this weird Grimms.
Speaker: I mean, in the context, it wasn't weird.
Speaker: They were like a traveling band of musicians.
Speaker: I know that for one of the shows I was in, we'd read this like in the green room.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: But you weren't in that show.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Maybe I was in a hangout around it.
Speaker: Maybe.
Speaker: Anyways, keep going.
Speaker: Sorry.
Speaker: I was just like, was that with Nate?
Speaker: Could have been.
Speaker: Could have been.
Speaker: I was surprised though, how delightful this little story was.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: I had Ellie just name a page number, and we got to the goose girl at the well.
Speaker: You know the goose girl at the well?
Speaker: Is that like a spinoff of Swan Lake?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: No, it was really delightful, though.
Speaker: It wasn't super long, several pages.
Speaker: No, it's not.
Speaker: That's a picture from the previous one.
Speaker: Who wants that?
Speaker: The Two Towers?
Speaker: Sorry, we're just looking through this now.
Speaker: Did it say The Two Towers?
Speaker: Yeah, where your thumb is.
Speaker: Flip it back open.
Speaker: The Two Travelers.
Speaker: Oh, dang.
Speaker: I was like, oh, can you still have one?
Speaker: I mean, he did pull from mythology a little bit.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Anyways.
Speaker: So give you a synopsis of the story.
Speaker: Yes, give me a synopsis.
Speaker: Because it's interesting.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So it starts with this old woman and she's all bent over and she goes into the woods.
Speaker: But in the woods, she actually has more strength than you would think.
Speaker: She can like carry a ton of stuff out of those woods.
Speaker: Because the woods are amazing.
Speaker: She gets like a whole bunch of grass for her geese from there.
Speaker: Grass is very heavy.
Speaker: Grass is so heavy.
Speaker: You need a lot of strength.
Speaker: Remember like we'd like mowed and have the bag date?
Speaker: Oh, that's true.
Speaker: It is heavy.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: I was making a joke, but it is heavy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And people think that she's... You can't digest it.
Speaker: That's how heavy it is.
Speaker: Have you ever tried eating grass?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Sorry, I keep interrupting your story.
Speaker: No, this is good.
Speaker: It could just be me telling a story otherwise.
Speaker: I once ate grass when I was three because I was pretending to be Eeyore, and then I threw it all over my dad's poker game.
Speaker: No way!
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So don't eat grass, kids, because humans can't digest it.
Speaker: Wow, you threw it up.
Speaker: I did.
Speaker: How much did you eat?
Speaker: I guess a lot.
Speaker: Because I threw it up.
Speaker: My dad kept telling me not to, and I was like, that's fine, I'm Eeyore.
Speaker: I'm just a depressed stuffed animal, Dad.
Speaker: I can digest.
Speaker: He's a stuffed animal.
Speaker: Not even E or A grass.
Speaker: Oh, that's right.
Speaker: He ate thistles.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I just meant because he was stuffed.
Speaker: He didn't actually eat.
Speaker: Oh, that's true.
Speaker: But the ate in the context of the story.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Anyways.
Speaker: So this fairy tale.
Speaker: If he continues, maybe we'll just invite him into the podcast.
Speaker: Yeah, that'd be sweet.
Speaker: So people look at this little old lady and they think she's a witch.
Speaker: Who else could carry that much grass?
Speaker: some sorcery there maybe.
Speaker: One day, a nice young man comes along and he offers to help carry this lady's load to her place.
Speaker: And it turns out that he's like a count from another kingdom or something like that.
Speaker: And she takes him up on it.
Speaker: And like she says it's not far and stuff.
Speaker: So it's okay.
Speaker: But then after she takes him up on it, it's like it's an hour's walk.
Speaker: And it turns out all these things he has to carry is like super heavy.
Speaker: He can hardly lift them.
Speaker: Uh-huh.
Speaker: And but she like holds him to it like, no, you got to go.
Speaker: And so he like can barely move and carrying him.
Speaker: Then he has to go like up a mountain with it.
Speaker: And it's so hard.
Speaker: And at some point she like jumps on his back and like whips him to keep going.
Speaker: No, you can't stop here.
Speaker: You can rest when you get to my cottage.
Speaker: This is giving me like Studio Ghibli vibes.
Speaker: Have you ever watched any studio-given movies?
Speaker: I've heard the name.
Speaker: I think you would really like them, although some of them are creepy.
Speaker: Oh, is that like my friend Totoro?
Speaker: Yeah, and like that one was not my favorite.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: Just because I didn't like Totoro.
Speaker: You're like, that would be my friend.
Speaker: He's not my friend.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Kiki's Delivery Service is really lovely.
Speaker: Sounds cute.
Speaker: How Was Moving Castle's Fun?
Speaker: I really liked one called Ponyo, which is about a little fish girl.
Speaker: Oh, I've seen the art for that.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I feel like they have very similar vibes to this.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So keep going.
Speaker: So finally, get to the house and oh, he found out like he couldn't drop the stuff.
Speaker: It's like, it's like, it's like welded to him.
Speaker: It was like, like welded, like, like, like rooted to him.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But when it's finally when he got up there, he could drop them.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And out from the house, there comes this other like old lady who like calls that old lady mother.
Speaker: So I guess it's a less old lady, it seems.
Speaker: And she's ugly.
Speaker: The one lady is like 180 and the other one is 160.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Something like that.
Speaker: Or maybe she had them as a teenager.
Speaker: I was thinking maybe like 1850.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: But anyway, so he like, they invite a man of ages.
Speaker: He just needs to sleep right here and he sleeps and he, he wakes up and for his reward, he is given a book made out of like a single emerald.
Speaker: They like made a book out of like a jewel.
Speaker: huh pretty cool yeah and he leaves and doesn't see the beautiful girl behind and it's kind of insinuated that that the old that the not old woman the other old ugly woman is actually a beautiful girl and he tries to now he's left and he tries to find his way
Speaker: And he's like three days walking, trying to find his way back to civilization.
Speaker: And he comes to this land.
Speaker: And because it's not his land and people like don't know him, they bring him to the king and queen.
Speaker: And he like bows down and presents this like emerald book.
Speaker: And the queen looks at it and falls down like dead.
Speaker: And they like carry him off to prison.
Speaker: But then she wakes up and they like, she stops them.
Speaker: And turns out she brings him back and tells him this story that the king and queen had three daughters and the king was going to divide his kingdom amidst his three daughters.
Speaker: But he was going to divide it by who loved him the most.
Speaker: Isn't that like a King Lear thing?
Speaker: I think so.
Speaker: I haven't watched all of King Lear yet, but I think it is.
Speaker: He is dividing it amongst three daughters, but I don't remember what his criteria is, but I think it might be that.
Speaker: I think it's similar because they all say they love him, but they need to say, prove it with their words.
Speaker: And the first one is like, I love you as much as fancy clothes.
Speaker: And the other.
Speaker: Do you see this blouse?
Speaker: You're just as good as this blouse.
Speaker: And the second daughter was something like, I love you as much as, as much as gold.
Speaker: And then the third daughter, I'm forgetting exactly what they were, but the third daughter was like, was like, food is wonderful, but it's,
Speaker: the best thing about food is the salt that you put on it and that makes it great.
Speaker: So I guess that I love you as much as salt.
Speaker: And the king did not appreciate that.
Speaker: That felt like a big insult.
Speaker: That seemed like a very thoughtful answer.
Speaker: I know, I know, but salt, you think of me as salt?
Speaker: That's how much you love me?
Speaker: But this third daughter, she was like the most beautiful of creatures.
Speaker: And when she cried, she didn't cry tears.
Speaker: She cried pearls.
Speaker: That would hurt.
Speaker: I know, but it's a fairy tale.
Speaker: Maybe that's why she kept on crying.
Speaker: The only relief she had was food, and that's why she loves food.
Speaker: It's all coming together.
Speaker: This is just such an insensitive king.
Speaker: Yeah, but he exiles her.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Drives her out of the kingdom because, boy, she called him... She loved him like salt.
Speaker: So the moral of the story is... I'm just... I'm cutting Nate off there.
Speaker: No, it's not.
Speaker: The moral of the story is don't call your loved one salt.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Don't be salty.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Nor hasty.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: So the girl goes off and she finds herself with this old lady who takes her in.
Speaker: And the king eventually like calmed down and felt bad about what he did.
Speaker: But they searched for her, but they could not find her.
Speaker: Now this is like three years ago.
Speaker: I like the idea that the king's like, salt.
Speaker: He's like eating his steak when he's like, I guess salt's not super bad.
Speaker: Salt's pretty great.
Speaker: That's pretty great.
Speaker: So he's searching for her.
Speaker: So they did search for her, but they couldn't find her.
Speaker: But when the queen opened this emerald book, inside it was a pearl that was just like the pearls that the daughter would cry.
Speaker: And so they're thinking, this has to do with her.
Speaker: And so they're like, we got to go.
Speaker: We got to go back to this house because there'll be at least a starting point to find her.
Speaker: Something has to do with her there.
Speaker: And on the way back, the count and the king and queen get separated.
Speaker: And the count comes upon.
Speaker: He climbs a tree to sleep.
Speaker: And he sees that younger old woman come.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: um actually he sees a beautiful young woman come and when she gets startled she puts on this old woman's face and so it's just a disguise basically the old woman and she's like this beautiful girl and then he like meets up up again with the king queen and like tells her what them what happened and then they go to the cottage and the cottage is all cleaned and prepared the
Speaker: Apparently the old lady was expecting them.
Speaker: She's got like kind of some psychic powers and stuff.
Speaker: Like me with whether or not movies are going to be good or bad without watching the trailers.
Speaker: And basically it comes out that it is her daughter, the king queen's daughter.
Speaker: And so they have her back.
Speaker: And the queen had, the old lady had said, like, my time, your time with me is over.
Speaker: And the old lady, like, disappears.
Speaker: and the the um pearls that she the girl had cried the old lady had like kept them and now it's like wealth more than the kingdom and the cottage went after the old lady disappeared turned into like this beautiful king like beautiful castle and um
Speaker: And it's insinuated that the count and the princess marry and live there.
Speaker: And it's funny because this fairy tale actually ends before it ends.
Speaker: And it goes on to say, like, my mother told me this story and she forgot how it ended.
Speaker: But I think it ended like this.
Speaker: That, like, they get the kingdom and such.
Speaker: And that the old lady wasn't a witch but was a wise woman.
Speaker: And it was so interesting to me.
Speaker: I'm not a witch, I'm a white woman.
Speaker: That this was like the inversion of typical fairy tales in that, in that, oh, and it said that,
Speaker: that we think that the girl was blessed with this gift of crying pearls when she was born, probably by that wise woman.
Speaker: And so unlike, is it Sleeping Beauty, Melissa Ficent, she like curses the girl.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: and then like kidnaps her.
Speaker: But in this story, the wise woman blesses her and then receives her when she is exiled.
Speaker: And so it was like an interesting inversion.
Speaker: And so I was talking about this with Ellie and thought that was cool.
Speaker: And she was like, one thing that bothers me is that
Speaker: Like the count got to marry this great girl and got this great kingdom, but he didn't really do it because he was a great guy.
Speaker: Like because it's insinuated that his reward, this was like kind of he got his reward from taking the woman's stuff up the mountain.
Speaker: And he's like, he didn't really want to go to those lengths.
Speaker: He was forced.
Speaker: He was forced.
Speaker: He was whipped.
Speaker: And then he got to marry it.
Speaker: And then we were like thinking, hmm, but is there wisdom in that as well?
Speaker: That I think it's like some of like what we were talking about.
Speaker: A lot of the good stuff that happens to us is not because we were so good.
Speaker: Because we're gifted with it.
Speaker: But we were gifted and...
Speaker: the hard things that we go through can turn into that blessing in the end, like tears turning into pearls.
Speaker: And it just seemed
Speaker: It seemed cool how like, like this wasn't explicitly said within the fairy tale and you wouldn't necessarily even have to like think all these things out.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But I like how like just reading it and like reading it to your children can kind of infuse them with like these meanings, like just this worldview that they don't even know exactly what it all means.
Speaker: There's some mystery in it.
Speaker: But there's some wisdom too that we don't always understand that
Speaker: hmm, he didn't really deserve that.
Speaker: But sometimes we start off doing something hard that we didn't really want to do, and the Lord takes that and really blesses it through his grace.
Speaker: Yeah, that's quite cool.
Speaker: Oh, I had a thought, and now that thought has escaped me.
Speaker: Like a pearl leaving my eye painfully.
Speaker: Gotta save that.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: Now I can buy new mics for the podcast.
Speaker: Oh, darn.
Speaker: What was it going to... What was it going to... Shoot.
Speaker: It's totally gone.
Speaker: It seemed like a good tie-in to that, like I talk about gratitude.
Speaker: It did.
Speaker: Because, like, the bad things turning out for good.
Speaker: Like, everything sad coming untrue kind of thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, I like...
Speaker: I like what you said about it not necessarily being explicitly stated in it, too.
Speaker: Like, I wonder if the author had all these things in mind or if it was just... Because that could easily just be conventions of the time.
Speaker: It's like, oh, and then they're going to get married, you know, because he did the trial, you know.
Speaker: But God still, just through the author or storyteller or wherever that tale originated from,
Speaker: Yeah, I think like these fairy tales are just kind of... Probably like an oral tradition.
Speaker: Oral tradition, like mothers and stuff would like tell them to their kids and Grimm's like kind of just collected them and wrote them down in their own way.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But I love that just God can work through that to give the theme just because they're being a responsible artist in creating something.
Speaker: But there are a lot of interesting inversions on the fairy tale.
Speaker: Like even in that that is less of a tragedy and I think a lot of the like fairy tales we think of are very tragic and they start not great and then it's like there's a really great lovely person trying to achieve something and then it gets goes really wrong.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: This is like a somewhat reluctant dude and an old, probably implied, not very attractive woman end up getting this very beautiful ending from this very benevolent, lovely person.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think that's quite interesting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think we've probably talked about it, but like you don't always in your art need to like think
Speaker: think of all these deep and meanings to it.
Speaker: But if you're telling a true story, there's so much can be brought out of that.
Speaker: So there's just like told a true story as it were.
Speaker: And that's how the world works.
Speaker: Tears get turned into pearls.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: No, but what I love about that, which ties into some of what I would talk about with my thing that I've been reading, um, is I think there's a whimsy and a joy and a wonder to that, that I think that we lack today.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Okay, that we lack in the West, namely America, because that's what I know.
Speaker: I can't speak for Nigerian art because I've not experienced Nigerian art.
Speaker: So maybe Nigeria is full of whimsy and wonder and joy in their art.
Speaker: They totally could be.
Speaker: Probably need it with a lot of their living conditions.
Speaker: But I feel like we...
Speaker: really prize realism.
Speaker: Like we're on our like second realistic Batman take when we had one five years ago, you know, like we want to make all of our fantasy stories real and raw.
Speaker: And I love those.
Speaker: I heard in a different podcast that are you referencing a different podcast on this?
Speaker: Don't listen to another podcast.
Speaker: This is our original thought.
Speaker: But that like, uh,
Speaker: Realism stories are like the only like fake stories because like Because I remember all the things but that's like not how I think when it's like the highest aim Right, because I would look exactly like the Dark Knight trilogy and the Batman I think are great movies and
Speaker: that are very realistic takes on Batman.
Speaker: But they're just realistic because that's just more the style, whereas really they're trying to go at something true about the character, and that's just sort of the traffic.
Speaker: I'm remembering the point was, like, realism doesn't take in account that we are, like, spitting around the world at Mach 80 or whatever, like that, spitting around a star, and all these crazy things happen.
Speaker: They just...
Speaker: They don't take into account the supernatural, which is real.
Speaker: And they just think, okay, we'll just talk about the facts, the physical things.
Speaker: And that's fantasy because the fantasy world has more connection with reality because it accounts for supernatural.
Speaker: I like that.
Speaker: And I think, again, if you're just focused on true and you're just focusing on like...
Speaker: The facts... The spiritual can still be in there.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: I think it is for, again, those Batman movies I'm talking about.
Speaker: I think there's a lot of emotional, spiritual, like, rich things going on in those characters.
Speaker: Even though they're like, we're going to be realistic and he's going to drive, like, a tank or, like, Camaro as the Batmobile, you know.
Speaker: But it still has this mythic quality to it in some sense.
Speaker: But I just feel like we've tended to, like...
Speaker: just become very cynical as America.
Speaker: And I think that we have a hard time recognizing in at least like in film and I think in writing, although I guess I'm not, I'm not the expert on that, but I feel like at least like fantasy stories and things, I feel like they have the tendency to be much more like,
Speaker: You know, we want to follow like the Game of Thrones vibes where it's like really intense and dark and is like what like a medieval society would really be like, you know, and... Rather nihilist.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like I think we're taking the joy and the whimsy out of those things that we've created to be ultra fantastical.
Speaker: Um...
Speaker: Not exclusively.
Speaker: Because like reality is we have angels around us doing things and devils.
Speaker: And that's the world that we're living in.
Speaker: And where like babies get born out of just like a simple act.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: And just crazy things are happening and we just are used to it.
Speaker: We're just simply used to it and we give it a name and we see that something happened before.
Speaker: So there's a reason to it, but really we don't understand why these things happen.
Speaker: And I think that fantasy in particular, like fantasy and myths and fairy tales, and I would say superheroes to an extent too, because I think superheroes are the myths of our day.
Speaker: Like I think there are Hercules, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: I think that these stories are uniquely positioned to help us remember the joy and the wonder in that, right?
Speaker: Like, think about how all of our parents or grandparents were just... Like the original Superman movie, where the tagline is, you'll believe a man can fly.
Speaker: And like, the real... I mean, the characters in that movie, the character work in the romance in that is lovely.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: just the whimsy of, oh my gosh, I'm watching a man fly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, I'm reading about this teenager who's like me, who also is like swinging through ropes through New York city, like an acrobat, like Cirque du Soleil times a thousand, you know?
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And I feel like now it's just like, oh, yeah, Spider-Man swings on a way.
Speaker: Superman flies around and punches things.
Speaker: And I don't think we've always lost the whimsy and the wonder.
Speaker: But I think a lot of times it's just sort of cynically nihilistically looked at like, oh, yeah, that's what we're doing.
Speaker: Now let's figure out.
Speaker: How we can make the money or how we can get the character to go through this ringer and this and that and there's not a lot of time for The wonder so I've been reading the Silmarillion finally.
Speaker: It's like my eighth attempt.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't think it's my eighth but like it's I've tried several times.
Speaker: How are you liking it?
Speaker: I'm loving it which is
Speaker: It's both not a surprise and a surprise because I love like fantasy worlds and the lore of fantasy worlds.
Speaker: It's one of my great joys and hobbies.
Speaker: But I also sometimes just have struggled to get through Tolkien's prose.
Speaker: But as I've talked about, I think on the podcast previously, I've kind of slow, I found myself enjoying a slower pace in my reading, which I think kind of connects to this thought about whimsy and wonder and joy, but I'll get there in a minute.
Speaker: But that's allowed me to enjoy the Silmarillion much more.
Speaker: Let me... Isn't the prose beautiful?
Speaker: The prose is lovely.
Speaker: I'm going to quick, just in case there's people listening to the podcast, like some of our theater friends who are not ultra geeks, who don't know what the Silmarillion is.
Speaker: The Silmarillion is basically Tolkien's Bible for Lord of the Rings, I think is the best way.
Speaker: It's like the Old Testament, but for Lord of the Rings.
Speaker: So Tolkien weaves this beautiful creation myth
Speaker: which is the most beautiful creation myth outside of scripture, I think.
Speaker: And I think is a really wonderful lens to see the beauty and joy and wonder that Tolkien sees in creation.
Speaker: It's just, he literally, he just makes creation the musical, is what he writes.
Speaker: It's just, you could turn it into an opera or a symphony and it would be one of the most beautiful things, just with the concepts and ideas he puts forth in that, it's lovely.
Speaker: Ellie wants to turn into a ballet.
Speaker: I want to... Okay, one of my dreams would be to do a Silmarillion trilogy of musicals.
Speaker: Because I think the Silmarillion should never be adapted to film because of its mythic quality that I'm going to talk about.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So, yeah, I paused.
Speaker: I was like, should I talk about the mythic quality now and then come back to this?
Speaker: I'll finish this mini thought and then I'll go to the mythic quality.
Speaker: Anyways, I think film would do a disservice to the Silmarillion because of how simple and real and raw that is.
Speaker: But I think the Silmarillion needs to be larger than life.
Speaker: And I think it would only be accurately captured in something like animation, a ballet, a symphony, or a musical.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: So I want to create a trilogy of musicals if the Tolkien estate would ever let me.
Speaker: And if I could get a composer who would work with me, I would want to do a Baron and Luthien musical, which is this beautiful love story that Tolkien writes, which I'm in the middle of.
Speaker: It's my favorite.
Speaker: It's mythic.
Speaker: It's...
Speaker: It has vibes of Hadestown, but in a fantastical world.
Speaker: It's very fairytale-esque.
Speaker: It's so fairytale-esque.
Speaker: But there's also with Tolkien's rich theological lens and cosmology that's very Christian and Catholic inspired.
Speaker: My son is named after.
Speaker: Your son is named after?
Speaker: It's such a rich world.
Speaker: So I would want to do that.
Speaker: And then...
Speaker: I'd love to do one of something of the events that I'm still like figuring out what would the structure of that be.
Speaker: But Feanor is such a interesting.
Speaker: There's this elf called Feanor and he's this very gifted but very tragic and hubris filled character who would be incredible on stage as a musical.
Speaker: As a musical character kind of leading you through either at least the first half of a show and then kicking off events in the second half that people need to sort of figure out in his wake or just as the whole thing as this tragic figure.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: So something around Feanor I would want to be the first part.
Speaker: And then I think either something around Erendil or Children of Hurin, but I haven't read that part yet.
Speaker: But something around there would be the third part.
Speaker: That's a hard one.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: But that would be my three parts.
Speaker: I would want a set that could turn into Ann Caligon, who's a really giant dragon.
Speaker: Oh, nice.
Speaker: So I basically want to build this set that is this really amazing, beautiful city and then could be deconstructed and turned into this giant dragon that absorbs the entire stage that the actors fight.
Speaker: That'd be crazy.
Speaker: This is like my theater pipe dream.
Speaker: Anyways.
Speaker: But it's just...
Speaker: Tolkien loved... I haven't talked about, I guess, Tolkien's inspiration behind his role.
Speaker: Well, I did a little bit with Frodo, I guess.
Speaker: But like this aspect of it.
Speaker: Tolkien absolutely loved, as you know.
Speaker: Now I'm just talking to our audience.
Speaker: We'll just look at the camera for this part.
Speaker: So, lecture time.
Speaker: This man's not here.
Speaker: I'm only talking to you.
Speaker: I'll just talk to you, camera two.
Speaker: But Tolkien loved myth, especially like Norse myth, Norse mythology.
Speaker: That was how he and Lewis sort of initially...
Speaker: were attracted to each other as friends because they were just at this party.
Speaker: And then Tolkien and Lewis happened to be by each other and were like, wait, you like Norse myth too?
Speaker: I like Norse myth.
Speaker: We're two Oxford dudes who love Norse myth.
Speaker: This is great.
Speaker: Is that right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think that was like their initial meeting was like, oh my gosh, you love mythology.
Speaker: I love mythology.
Speaker: Let's talk mythology because no one else here is talking mythology with us.
Speaker: Tolkien always lamented that England's mythology was King Arthur.
Speaker: He didn't...
Speaker: He like wrote some King Arthur, like base things, like translated some things.
Speaker: So he respected it, but he was like, England could have such a better mythology.
Speaker: It wasn't even English.
Speaker: It was like taken from like traumatic or something like that.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So he was like inspired by Norse mythology.
Speaker: So a lot of very pagan influences in his art.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: But so he almost just, I think as, I mean, he was a part of this great, wonderful group of artists called the Inklings who would meet.
Speaker: And he really needed an escape from like all of his professorial work.
Speaker: And so he just sort of started to build this language and this world.
Speaker: And he created the world.
Speaker: How did he have time to do that?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: The man was a genius and crazy.
Speaker: Maybe it's really a cushy job being a professor.
Speaker: Let's do it, you and I. Let's get a graduate degree and become profs.
Speaker: We can live in those prof dorms and just work two days a week.
Speaker: Go to the pub.
Speaker: Talk about it.
Speaker: Talk about the worlds we're making.
Speaker: And then one of us will inevitably not love the other's world as much, and it will fracture our friendship.
Speaker: I think it will be my wife that will fraction our friendship.
Speaker: Oh, because of joy.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah, you're right.
Speaker: Tolkien didn't like Lewis's marriage for reasons.
Speaker: We'll talk about that later.
Speaker: I'm going to talk to Walt Williams soon, and he's in Shadowlands.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That story.
Speaker: Tune into an upcoming episode or a previous episode, depending on when I post this episode.
Speaker: But yeah, so Tolkien eventually posthumously has this published by his son, Christopher, and it is just the best compilation of all of Tolkien's various myths that he created in this fictional world.
Speaker: And they are so larger than life.
Speaker: They are crazy.
Speaker: They're literally...
Speaker: They are unbelievable stories, not just in the sense of, wow, these are so fantastical, but also in the sense of sometimes you're like, the logic here maybe does attract.
Speaker: Like at one point he's just like, there was an elf king and he basically literally fought Satan and held his own for a decent chunk of time.
Speaker: He dies, as you would do, but he makes Satan never come out again.
Speaker: Like, that's crazy.
Speaker: But in and amongst all these crazy larger-than-life things, there's just this truth that resonates throughout in all these various stories that shines through bravery, beauty especially.
Speaker: I think beauty and tragedy, I think, are the two...
Speaker: thus far in my reading that I think are really the most elevated in this work of Tolkien's.
Speaker: Would you say a lot because his prose is so beautiful?
Speaker: I think that's part of it, but I also think Tolkien has this love for...
Speaker: creation that comes out even when he's not talking about creation because one of the one of the things that makes it hard for me to read lord of the rings is how long he takes describing nature and the world around because i would prefer to keep going with the characters right the silmarillion
Speaker: Part of why I say it's like the Old Testament of Tolkien is because it feels like the Old Testament where it's like you are getting sparse details about these characters.
Speaker: Kind of at that high level.
Speaker: Yeah, it's like a zoomed out summary of what the story is.
Speaker: Sometimes I'm going to get a dialogue.
Speaker: Sometimes you zoom in a little bit, then you're back out again.
Speaker: Yeah, it's like a real-time strategy game.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But Tolkien.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So he doesn't have time to tell me about what the world looks like as much.
Speaker: Like he'll still go into descriptions.
Speaker: There's a chapter on geography.
Speaker: It's pretty rough.
Speaker: Yes, I was like, I'm going to get through Balerion and its lands.
Speaker: I believe in myself.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Outside of his one chapter on geography, he's largely just kind of like zooming through.
Speaker: But just even just like living in it, like you can just tell his love for beauty and the beauty that's infused into the world.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Seeps through, even though he's largely just talking about the people and is listing all these names of things that you do not know and don't remember and have to flip to the appendix.
Speaker: Remember, what is this?
Speaker: Where's the index?
Speaker: What elf is this?
Speaker: Who's he connected to?
Speaker: What's this kingdom name?
Speaker: I know I've been here five times, but I've forgotten.
Speaker: He does that Lewis thing of like, and she, she was the most beautiful thing ever.
Speaker: Cause Lewis did like, and this tasted the best ever.
Speaker: And it gives you that like, that elevated longing for the perfect and heaven and such.
Speaker: But I think it's just wrapped in this beautiful air of mystery, which is incredible for how well thought out his world was that it was still so mysterious.
Speaker: and beauty that just reading through it, when I'm able to just kind of sit back and be like, I'm just going to sit with like a hot cocoa or in bed while I'm falling asleep and just kind of read a couple paragraphs that you can just sort of bask in this wonder of this world, which like fills me with creativity.
Speaker: Like I've been writing in my book and in the lore of my world a lot more since reading the Silmarillion because I feel like it just...
Speaker: I think part of that might be the beauty, wonder, mystery.
Speaker: Like those three things, I think when we engage with those more, they fill us up creatively and spiritually in ways that then let us pour out things into others when we just kind of embrace those.
Speaker: Which is hard to do because beauty always comes with tragedy and wonder always comes with either confusion of how does that work or like...
Speaker: cynicism or disillusionment and mystery always comes with fear you know there's always this flip side to these things so it's hard to kind of
Speaker: focus in it makes me think i'm reading revelation right now and it is it is all those things that you're just saying i'm i'm kind of reading it like at fairly big chunks at time and not worried too much at like flipping up all around it what does this mean you know there's cross-reference everything yeah yeah but just like reading it and like the wash of it it's very beautiful it is and
Speaker: And mysterious.
Speaker: Like, I don't know when this is happening, if this is talking about then or now or in the future.
Speaker: For like different things it's talking about.
Speaker: There's a fear to it, but there's a beauty at Christ in it.
Speaker: And it does give you that mysterious and wonderful wash.
Speaker: I feel like revelation is something that Christians just need to live in throughout their entire walk and not try and explain it.
Speaker: But just be like, I'm going to just, I think it's helpful to know the context of things.
Speaker: Like to know John was writing about this emperor probably, right?
Speaker: And there was this happening in the church.
Speaker: Like I think those things can be helpful.
Speaker: But I think...
Speaker: A lot of times it's good to just kind of be like, this is beyond our understanding.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because even the prophecies about Christ, like in Isaiah, where we're reading a whole thing, we're like, this is clearly Christ.
Speaker: Like, he's talking about it one to one.
Speaker: Like, there's sections where that's definitely it.
Speaker: But nobody thought that at the time.
Speaker: So it's like, just kind of living in it and letting yourself embrace the beauty and wonder.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And maybe you can do both.
Speaker: I think so.
Speaker: You need to endure.
Speaker: And Jesus is coming back.
Speaker: Jesus is coming.
Speaker: Bad things going to happen.
Speaker: And are you ready to endure and die?
Speaker: Because you're going to get, if you don't endure, you're going to be suffering for forever.
Speaker: If you do endure and die, then things are going to be awesome.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I think there's maybe a humility to that for us, both as Christians,
Speaker: Artisan as a audience taking in a work of art or taking in scripture to be willing to just meet the art where it's at and not try and make it something.
Speaker: Be willing to just say, I don't know, or this doesn't make sense, but maybe I'm going to go with it.
Speaker: Mm hmm.
Speaker: I was pondering if I was going to use a controversial example that most people wouldn't agree with.
Speaker: And I don't need to.
Speaker: It's from a DC movie.
Speaker: And I feel like people are going to, I feel like that's going to lessen my point.
Speaker: So I won't.
Speaker: John loves all the DC movies.
Speaker: Not all of them.
Speaker: Most of them.
Speaker: I don't love Suicide Squad.
Speaker: I like the Suicide Squad.
Speaker: I don't need to talk about which DC movies I do and don't like.
Speaker: That's a tangent.
Speaker: But I will someday.
Speaker: i will talk about man of steel one day that's a hope-filled movie for how dark it is i think that is a movie bursting with hope anyways um i just couldn't resist i couldn't resist defending one um that wasn't the one i was going to talk about but i think like it's like it's suspension of disbelief and i think a lot of times we'll look at something and just be like that doesn't make sense that's stupid right maybe we just need to be humble enough to just be like
Speaker: Let's let it go and just kind of see what is the saying underneath right?
Speaker: Why are they using this?
Speaker: I am gonna use the example the Martha scene in Batman is a stupidly written scene it is because Batman's about to kill Superman because Batman is threatened by Superman and is paranoid and he's in a very bad place in his life and then Superman says save Martha because both their mom's name is Martha and Batman is suddenly like whoa I can't kill you now um
Speaker: And it is a badly written scene.
Speaker: But if you were just to let yourself go with it and just be like, hang on, let me just try and see what is the writer and the director trying to do in this.
Speaker: What's happening there that I don't think is well executed.
Speaker: So we can have a discussion of like, it should be better executed.
Speaker: But just as an example of like,
Speaker: Letting letting yourself kind of go with something that maybe you don't think makes sense Or maybe you have a hard time just kind of getting past what's really in the core there is Batman is realizing that this thing that he's terrified of is actually human It's as human as he is and he's realizing I'm about to do to somebody basically what's been done to me somebody who has just as much value and worth as me and who is just as human as I am and
Speaker: And I'm stupidly almost getting emotionally affected by this.
Speaker: I'm feeling my tear ducts open.
Speaker: No, that's good.
Speaker: I like that.
Speaker: And it was a badly written scene.
Speaker: But I think it's a good example of like, that is something that does not make sense.
Speaker: That's not how you would probably go about that situation.
Speaker: Just like an elf wouldn't really be able to fight Satan and wound him bad enough that Satan would be like, I don't actually want to come out and fight anybody again.
Speaker: Or like a little shepherd boy wouldn't be able to knock down a giant.
Speaker: A giant.
Speaker: If, listen, if a shepherd boy could knock down a giant, then Superman could save Martha.
Speaker: That is way more likely, right?
Speaker: Way more likely.
Speaker: We say Martha all the time.
Speaker: Way more often.
Speaker: So much more often than we kill giants.
Speaker: And I don't think we have, I don't think that that then means that we have to say, I wholeheartedly love this piece of art.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But I think it's valuable as an artist and as a audience member to have the humility, to be willing to go with something that's fantastical or doesn't make sense and just say, I'm just going to meet this where it's at and see what is human and true at the core of this.
Speaker: And can I resonate with that?
Speaker: It does take humility because it's so much, it can be more,
Speaker: In one way, it can be more fun to be the critic.
Speaker: I'm smarter than this.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like, why are they remaking How to Train Your Dragon?
Speaker: Shot for Shot.
Speaker: Maybe if I approached it with a little bit of humility.
Speaker: Maybe there is something really beautiful in that movie that I need to give a shot to.
Speaker: But it's a balance, right?
Speaker: Because you don't just want to take all art as good.
Speaker: Like a Shot for Shot remake of How to Train Your Dragon?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But more what you want to have it be in tune to as like, is this art telling me a lie?
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Like, is there something true in this or is this just cynical or trying to force something down my throat?
Speaker: Versus is it like earnest?
Speaker: You know, I think we live in a day and age where we're lacking earnesty in a lot of things, but art especially.
Speaker: And I think being able to recognize, is this earnestly trying to share something true with me?
Speaker: And if so, am I willing to meet it and see what it's saying?
Speaker: Even if I don't end up loving it at the end, am I willing to kind of just go with it a minute and appreciate what is earnest and true about it?
Speaker: Which I think is something we can learn from myths and fairy tales, right?
Speaker: Because I think a lot of times we'll think of fairy tales as like these crazy wacky kids stories where all these crazy things don't happen.
Speaker: But really beautiful things happen in fairy tales.
Speaker: If we're willing to not critique that
Speaker: you know, pearls falling from somebody's ears.
Speaker: Right, like, pearls falling, crying, like, pearls crying from somebody's tears is stupid.
Speaker: If we are willing to just be like, no, let's just go with it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Let's go with a weird emerald-built book.
Speaker: That is not how a book would be made, but let's just go with it.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: What is there to learn there?
Speaker: Yeah, I think they can do really rich.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Do you have any other thoughts on myth or fairy tales along this vein?
Speaker: We'll probably come back to myths and fairy tales a lot because you and I love that kind of storytelling.
Speaker: So anytime I'll have you back on, we could easily go ahead.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, that'd be good.
Speaker: I think this was lovely.
Speaker: Well, thank you for coming on again.
Speaker: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker: This is so fun.
