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Myths, Fantasy, and Fairy Tales
61 Plays1 year ago
In this episode Jon invites his friend Nate Knobloch back onto the podcast to discuss myths, fantasy, and fairy tales, and how this unique genre allows us to engage with mystery, beauty, and deep truth in a distinct way.
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Transcript
The Miraculous Nature of Life
00:00:00
Speaker
We have angels around us doing things and devils and that's the world that we're living in and where we're like babies get get born out of just like a simple simple act.
00:00:14
Speaker
Yup.
00:00:15
Speaker
and just crazy things are happening and we just are used to it.
00:00:18
Speaker
We're just simply used to it and we give it a name and we see that something happened before it so there's a reason to it but really we don't understand why these things happen.
00:00:27
Speaker
And I think that fantasy in particular, like fantasy and myths and fairy tales and I would say superheroes to an extent too because I think superheroes are the myths of our day.
00:00:37
Speaker
Like I think there are Hercules, you know?
00:00:41
Speaker
I think that these stories are uniquely positioned to help us remember the joy and the wonder in that.
Introduction to Myths and Fairy Tales
00:00:49
Speaker
Hey friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
00:00:51
Speaker
I'm John the host.
00:00:52
Speaker
Today we have my friend Nate Knobloch with us again.
00:00:56
Speaker
We just kind of recorded a couple episodes in one because we also wanted to talk about the topic of myths and fairy tales, these sort of fantastical stories that we always seem to create and always seem to tell each other and tell ourselves in every culture and every era.
00:01:13
Speaker
What wisdom is there in these stories?
00:01:15
Speaker
How do they help us engage with truth and beauty and mystery in ways that maybe stories of our everyday life don't?
00:01:23
Speaker
They are their own unique form of art, one that Nate and I both love quite a lot.
00:01:28
Speaker
And so it was a real joy to get to talk a little bit about those, talk about some of the things we've been reading within those genres and sort of how those have been informing our spiritual and emotional life.
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Speaker
Thank you guys for joining us.
00:01:45
Speaker
So let's pivot topics.
00:01:47
Speaker
Let's do it.
00:01:48
Speaker
Maybe it'll be a Sapkent episode.
00:01:49
Speaker
Maybe it'll be the same episode.
00:01:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:50
Speaker
Because I have no idea how long.
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Speaker
But we'll do it anyways.
00:01:53
Speaker
Let's keep going.
00:01:55
Speaker
You and I are both reading mythical fairy tale things.
00:02:00
Speaker
Let's talk about that.
00:02:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:02
Speaker
It sounded like Good Mythical Morning, which probably none of my audience knows.
00:02:05
Speaker
No, that's not true.
00:02:06
Speaker
John Taylor knows it.
00:02:07
Speaker
I know what it is.
00:02:09
Speaker
I've not watched it much.
Humor and Unique Podcast Style
00:02:10
Speaker
I haven't watched much of it either, but I think they will introduce a thing, and then they'll look at the camera, and then they'll go, let's talk about that.
00:02:16
Speaker
And then a chicken graphic comes down and goes, we're having a morning.
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Speaker
But it's evening for us.
00:02:24
Speaker
But it is.
00:02:24
Speaker
We're about
Church Calendar and Traditions
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to talk about mythical stuff.
00:02:27
Speaker
Is there a synonym for mythical that starts with E for evening?
00:02:32
Speaker
Oh, enchanting.
00:02:34
Speaker
Good enchanting evening.
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Speaker
Some enchanting evening.
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But we need a thing for good, too.
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Speaker
Lovely enchanting evening?
00:02:43
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:02:44
Speaker
Yeah.
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Lovely enchanting evening.
00:02:47
Speaker
Lovely enchanting evening.
00:02:48
Speaker
Let's discuss this.
00:02:52
Speaker
We've gotten to the point where this is distinct enough that it's not copyright infringement, right?
00:02:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:58
Speaker
Okay.
00:02:59
Speaker
Let's discuss this.
00:03:01
Speaker
You know, if we could sue, it would be enough that they were listening to our podcast.
00:03:06
Speaker
Oh my gosh.
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Speaker
I'm so honored they're suing us.
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Speaker
Come back to the faith, guys.
00:03:09
Speaker
I'm so sad about your deconstruction.
00:03:13
Speaker
I know.
00:03:14
Speaker
This is Artists of the Way, the podcast about art and faith, and also occasionally John lamenting.
00:03:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:19
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Yeah, I feel that.
00:03:21
Speaker
I don't even really know those guys, but I feel very sad about it.
00:03:24
Speaker
Dude, on the topic of lament, a thing that I'm sad about.
00:03:28
Speaker
I'm going to lament a thing about lamenting.
00:03:30
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My church is going to do something called the Longest Night Liturgy, which is an entire liturgy about lament.
00:03:38
Speaker
I'm like, that sounds so cool.
00:03:40
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But it's happening on my birthday night because my birthday's on the longest night of the year.
00:03:43
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And I didn't put this together.
00:03:45
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I know.
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I think I'm getting together with a bunch of people during that.
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And I'm like, ah, I wanted to lament some stuff.
00:03:54
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Not like I haven't been doing that throughout the year, but you know, just get it all in one.
00:03:58
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Yeah.
00:03:58
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Then I don't have to lament it all next year because that would be emotionally healthy.
00:04:03
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Maybe God's ready for you to celebrate.
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It's a new year.
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That's true.
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It's a new liturgical year.
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Is that right?
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Yeah.
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On your birthday?
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No, now it is.
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It's currently, we're switching over because we just had the last Sunday of the liturgical year and then Advent is the start of the liturgical year.
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Is that right?
00:04:18
Speaker
Yeah, so it always starts with Advent.
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You do Advent, you do Epiphany, which is where it's like, whoa, Jesus is God, this is crazy and he's here.
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And then you do Lent where you're like, we suck.
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Speaker
And then you do Easter where it's like, it's fine that we suck because Jesus is here.
00:04:32
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Yeah.
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Again, reductive.
00:04:34
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Fourth of July.
00:04:35
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And then fourth of July.
00:04:36
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Very important.
00:04:38
Speaker
No, you have Pentecost after Easter.
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So Easter is like a couple of weeks and then you have Pentecost and then you move into ordinary time or Trinity tide where it's like now that we've rehearsed the story of the gospel, we're living it out as a Christian people.
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And then the liturgical year ends and it's like Advent.
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Let's do it again.
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Let's look ahead to Christ coming.
00:04:58
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Nice.
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So it was very weird this Sunday because it's been a heck of a year.
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So coming up for communion, like my brain just was automatically like, it's New Year's Eve, but Christian version.
00:05:07
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Wow.
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So I'm looking back at everything.
00:05:09
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Yeah.
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Everything from the year was like visualized in my hand.
00:05:13
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Yeah.
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Coming up for Eucharist.
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That's cool that it coincides with Thanksgiving.
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I love it.
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Speaker
I love Thanksgiving.
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I love the liturgical year.
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They work together so lovely.
00:05:24
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That's really great.
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It's
The Charm and Impact of Fairy Tales
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great.
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It fills my soul.
00:05:27
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Yeah.
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It's lovely.
00:05:28
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I love that.
00:05:29
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Don't they, doesn't the liturgy work through the Bible in like a couple years?
00:05:34
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Three years.
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Three years?
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There's year A, B, and C. So each year they'll do a different synoptic gospel, which is Matthew, Mark, or Luke.
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And then they'll kind of weave John throughout.
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Okay.
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So in those three years, you should hear from the pulpit the majority of scripture.
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Okay.
00:05:52
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Doing like the epistles?
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Yes.
00:05:54
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I think, yeah, because you've got Old Testament, Psalms, New Testament, and then Gospel.
00:06:01
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Proverbs is just within Old Testament?
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Yes.
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Proverbs is, yeah.
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Proverbs is not its unique thing.
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Only the Psalms are unique.
00:06:08
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That's the only poetry that we like to stand out.
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Don't want to read Song of Solomon as its own special thing.
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Every week.
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Every week.
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And it's only like six chapters, so we're just...
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By the end of the year, you're going to have it memorized.
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Yeah.
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That's why we.
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Like a flock of goats, we know.
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We know.
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You're a breast or pond.
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That's why you send the kids out to Sunday school.
00:06:34
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Right.
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For the.
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So myths and fairy tales.
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Yeah.
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Do you want to go first or do I go first?
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How are we doing this?
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I can go first.
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Go first.
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Tell me what you got.
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So last night.
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Mm hmm.
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I said to Ellie, my wife, Ellie, I'm really sorry it's been so long since I've read us a fairy tale.
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Speaker
Since you've had a lovely enchanting evening.
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Yeah.
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Fairy tale.
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And I don't read her fairy tales.
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I just wanted to last night.
00:07:05
Speaker
And then I was disappointed because I didn't have the fairy tale that I wanted to read.
00:07:10
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But so I got picked up this Grimm's book from the shelf and had her just name a page number.
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Speaker
Have we read this?
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Speaker
Did we read a weird fairy tale from this about a donkey before?
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When?
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A few years ago.
00:07:26
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Because it used very archaic language for donkeys and chickens and it was weird.
00:07:32
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Pfft.
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I just am like, was this with Nate?
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Because I read this weird Grimms.
00:07:37
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I mean, in the context, it wasn't weird.
00:07:38
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They were like a traveling band of musicians.
00:07:42
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I know that for one of the shows I was in, we'd read this like in the green room.
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Okay.
00:07:46
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But you weren't in that show.
00:07:47
Speaker
Okay.
00:07:48
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Maybe I was in a hangout around it.
00:07:49
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Maybe.
00:07:50
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Anyways, keep going.
00:07:51
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Sorry.
00:07:51
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I was just like, was that with Nate?
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Could have been.
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Could have been.
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I was surprised though, how delightful this little story was.
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So.
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I had Ellie just name a page number, and we got to the goose girl at the well.
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You know the goose girl at the well?
00:08:11
Speaker
Is that like a spinoff of Swan Lake?
00:08:13
Speaker
No.
00:08:14
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Oh.
00:08:17
Speaker
No.
00:08:18
Speaker
No, it was really delightful, though.
00:08:20
Speaker
It wasn't super long, several pages.
00:08:22
Speaker
No, it's not.
00:08:23
Speaker
That's a picture from the previous one.
00:08:25
Speaker
Who wants that?
00:08:25
Speaker
The Two Towers?
00:08:27
Speaker
Sorry, we're just looking through this now.
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Speaker
Did it say The Two Towers?
00:08:29
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Yeah, where your thumb is.
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Speaker
Flip it back open.
00:08:31
Speaker
The Two Travelers.
00:08:32
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Oh, dang.
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I was like, oh, can you still have one?
00:08:35
Speaker
I mean, he did pull from mythology a little bit.
00:08:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:39
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Anyways.
00:08:40
Speaker
So give you a synopsis of the story.
00:08:42
Speaker
Yes, give me a synopsis.
00:08:43
Speaker
Because it's interesting.
00:08:44
Speaker
Yes.
00:08:44
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So it starts with this old woman and she's all bent over and she goes into the woods.
00:08:51
Speaker
But in the woods, she actually has more strength than you would think.
00:08:53
Speaker
She can like carry a ton of stuff out of those woods.
00:08:55
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Because the woods are amazing.
00:08:58
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She gets like a whole bunch of grass for her geese from there.
00:09:01
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Grass is very heavy.
00:09:03
Speaker
Grass is so heavy.
00:09:04
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You need a lot of strength.
00:09:05
Speaker
Remember like we'd like mowed and have the bag date?
00:09:08
Speaker
Oh, that's true.
00:09:08
Speaker
It is heavy.
00:09:09
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That's true.
00:09:10
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I was making a joke, but it is heavy.
00:09:12
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Yeah.
00:09:13
Speaker
And people think that she's... You can't digest it.
00:09:16
Speaker
That's how heavy it is.
00:09:17
Speaker
Have you ever tried eating grass?
00:09:19
Speaker
No.
00:09:19
Speaker
Sorry, I keep interrupting your story.
00:09:21
Speaker
No, this is good.
00:09:22
Speaker
It could just be me telling a story otherwise.
00:09:25
Speaker
I once ate grass when I was three because I was pretending to be Eeyore, and then I threw it all over my dad's poker game.
00:09:31
Speaker
No way!
00:09:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:32
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So don't eat grass, kids, because humans can't digest it.
00:09:37
Speaker
Wow, you threw it up.
00:09:38
Speaker
I did.
00:09:38
Speaker
How much did you eat?
00:09:41
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I guess a lot.
00:09:43
Speaker
Because I threw it up.
00:09:44
Speaker
My dad kept telling me not to, and I was like, that's fine, I'm Eeyore.
00:09:49
Speaker
I'm just a depressed stuffed animal, Dad.
00:09:52
Speaker
I can digest.
00:09:53
Speaker
He's a stuffed animal.
00:09:54
Speaker
Not even E or A grass.
00:09:57
Speaker
Oh, that's right.
00:09:58
Speaker
He ate thistles.
00:09:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:00
Speaker
I just meant because he was stuffed.
00:10:01
Speaker
He didn't actually eat.
00:10:02
Speaker
Oh, that's true.
00:10:02
Speaker
But the ate in the context of the story.
00:10:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:07
Speaker
Anyways.
00:10:08
Speaker
So this fairy tale.
00:10:13
Speaker
If he continues, maybe we'll just invite him into the podcast.
00:10:17
Speaker
Yeah, that'd be sweet.
00:10:19
Speaker
So people look at this little old lady and they think she's a witch.
00:10:24
Speaker
Who else could carry that much grass?
00:10:26
Speaker
some sorcery there maybe.
00:10:29
Speaker
One day, a nice young man comes along and he offers to help carry this lady's load to her place.
00:10:39
Speaker
And it turns out that he's like a count from another kingdom or something like that.
00:10:44
Speaker
And she takes him up on it.
00:10:47
Speaker
And like she says it's not far and stuff.
00:10:49
Speaker
So it's okay.
00:10:50
Speaker
But then after she takes him up on it, it's like it's an hour's walk.
00:10:55
Speaker
And it turns out all these things he has to carry is like super heavy.
00:10:58
Speaker
He can hardly lift them.
00:10:59
Speaker
Uh-huh.
00:11:00
Speaker
And but she like holds him to it like, no, you got to go.
00:11:03
Speaker
And so he like can barely move and carrying him.
00:11:07
Speaker
Then he has to go like up a mountain with it.
00:11:09
Speaker
And it's so hard.
00:11:10
Speaker
And at some point she like jumps on his back and like whips him to keep going.
00:11:15
Speaker
No, you can't stop here.
00:11:16
Speaker
You can rest when you get to my cottage.
00:11:19
Speaker
This is giving me like Studio Ghibli vibes.
00:11:23
Speaker
Have you ever watched any studio-given movies?
00:11:24
Speaker
I've heard the name.
00:11:25
Speaker
I think you would really like them, although some of them are creepy.
Realism vs. Fantasy in Storytelling
00:11:28
Speaker
Oh, is that like my friend Totoro?
00:11:30
Speaker
Yeah, and like that one was not my favorite.
00:11:33
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:11:35
Speaker
Just because I didn't like Totoro.
00:11:36
Speaker
You're like, that would be my friend.
00:11:38
Speaker
He's not my friend.
00:11:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:41
Speaker
Kiki's Delivery Service is really lovely.
00:11:43
Speaker
Sounds cute.
00:11:44
Speaker
How Was Moving Castle's Fun?
00:11:45
Speaker
I really liked one called Ponyo, which is about a little fish girl.
00:11:48
Speaker
Oh, I've seen the art for that.
00:11:50
Speaker
Okay.
00:11:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:52
Speaker
I feel like they have very similar vibes to this.
00:11:54
Speaker
Okay.
00:11:55
Speaker
So keep going.
00:11:56
Speaker
So finally, get to the house and oh, he found out like he couldn't drop the stuff.
00:12:02
Speaker
It's like, it's like, it's like welded to him.
00:12:04
Speaker
It was like, like welded, like, like, like rooted to him.
00:12:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:08
Speaker
But when it's finally when he got up there, he could drop them.
00:12:10
Speaker
Okay.
00:12:11
Speaker
And out from the house, there comes this other like old lady who like calls that old lady mother.
00:12:18
Speaker
So I guess it's a less old lady, it seems.
00:12:21
Speaker
And she's ugly.
00:12:22
Speaker
The one lady is like 180 and the other one is 160.
00:12:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:25
Speaker
Something like that.
00:12:27
Speaker
Or maybe she had them as a teenager.
00:12:29
Speaker
I was thinking maybe like 1850.
00:12:31
Speaker
Okay.
00:12:32
Speaker
But
Tolkien's Mythic Inspirations
00:12:33
Speaker
anyway, so he like, they invite a man of ages.
00:12:37
Speaker
He just needs to sleep right here and he sleeps and he, he wakes up and for his reward, he is given a book made out of like a single emerald.
00:12:49
Speaker
They like made a book out of like a jewel.
00:12:51
Speaker
huh pretty cool yeah and he leaves and doesn't see the beautiful girl behind and it's kind of insinuated that that the old that the not old woman the other old ugly woman is actually a beautiful girl and he tries to now he's left and he tries to find his way
00:13:13
Speaker
And he's like three days walking, trying to find his way back to civilization.
00:13:18
Speaker
And he comes to this land.
00:13:20
Speaker
And because it's not his land and people like don't know him, they bring him to the king and queen.
00:13:26
Speaker
And he like bows down and presents this like emerald book.
00:13:30
Speaker
And the queen looks at it and falls down like dead.
00:13:36
Speaker
And they like carry him off to prison.
00:13:38
Speaker
But then she wakes up and they like, she stops them.
00:13:41
Speaker
And turns out she brings him back and tells him this story that the king and queen had three daughters and the king was going to divide his kingdom amidst his three daughters.
00:13:55
Speaker
But he was going to divide it by who loved him the most.
00:14:00
Speaker
Isn't that like a King Lear thing?
00:14:04
Speaker
I think so.
00:14:04
Speaker
I haven't watched all of King Lear yet, but I think it is.
00:14:08
Speaker
He is dividing it amongst three daughters, but I don't remember what his criteria is, but I think it might be that.
00:14:14
Speaker
I think it's similar because they all say they love him, but they need to say, prove it with their words.
00:14:23
Speaker
And the first one is like, I love you as much as fancy clothes.
00:14:30
Speaker
And the other.
00:14:31
Speaker
Do you see this blouse?
00:14:33
Speaker
You're just as good as this blouse.
00:14:36
Speaker
And the second daughter was something like, I love you as much as, as much as gold.
00:14:42
Speaker
And then the third daughter, I'm forgetting exactly what they were, but the third daughter was like, was like, food is wonderful, but it's,
00:14:51
Speaker
the best thing about food is the salt that you put on it and that makes it great.
00:14:57
Speaker
So I guess that I love you as much as salt.
00:15:03
Speaker
And the king did not appreciate that.
00:15:06
Speaker
That felt like a big insult.
00:15:07
Speaker
That seemed like a very thoughtful answer.
00:15:09
Speaker
I know, I know, but salt, you think of me as salt?
00:15:13
Speaker
That's how much you love me?
00:15:15
Speaker
But this third daughter, she was like the most beautiful of creatures.
00:15:20
Speaker
And when she cried, she didn't cry tears.
00:15:23
Speaker
She cried pearls.
00:15:25
Speaker
That would hurt.
00:15:26
Speaker
I know, but it's a fairy tale.
00:15:28
Speaker
Maybe that's why she kept on crying.
00:15:33
Speaker
The only relief she had was food, and that's why she loves food.
00:15:37
Speaker
It's all coming together.
00:15:38
Speaker
This is just such an insensitive king.
00:15:41
Speaker
Yeah, but he exiles her.
00:15:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:44
Speaker
Drives her out of the kingdom because, boy, she called him... She loved him like salt.
00:15:51
Speaker
So the moral of the story is... I'm just... I'm cutting Nate off there.
00:15:55
Speaker
No, it's not.
00:15:56
Speaker
The moral of the story is don't call your loved one salt.
00:15:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:00
Speaker
Don't be salty.
00:16:01
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:16:02
Speaker
Nor hasty.
00:16:03
Speaker
Oh.
00:16:04
Speaker
But...
00:16:07
Speaker
So the girl goes off and she finds herself with this old lady who takes her in.
00:16:16
Speaker
And the king eventually like calmed down and felt bad about what he did.
00:16:21
Speaker
But they searched for her, but they could not find her.
00:16:26
Speaker
Now this is like three years ago.
00:16:28
Speaker
I like the idea that the king's like, salt.
00:16:30
Speaker
He's like eating his steak when he's like, I guess salt's not super bad.
00:16:35
Speaker
Salt's pretty great.
00:16:36
Speaker
That's pretty great.
00:16:40
Speaker
So he's searching for her.
00:16:41
Speaker
So they did search for her, but they couldn't find her.
00:16:44
Speaker
But when the queen opened this emerald book, inside it was a pearl that was just like the pearls that the daughter would cry.
00:16:53
Speaker
And so they're thinking, this has to do with her.
00:16:58
Speaker
And so they're like, we got to go.
00:17:00
Speaker
We got to go back to this house because there'll be at least a starting point to find her.
00:17:05
Speaker
Something has to do with her there.
00:17:08
Speaker
And on the way back, the count and the king and queen get separated.
00:17:15
Speaker
And the count comes upon.
00:17:18
Speaker
He climbs a tree to sleep.
00:17:19
Speaker
And he sees that younger old woman come.
00:17:24
Speaker
And...
00:17:25
Speaker
um actually he sees a beautiful young woman come and when she gets startled she puts on this old woman's face and so it's just a disguise basically the old woman and she's like this beautiful girl and then he like meets up up again with the king queen and like tells her what them what happened and then they go to the cottage and the cottage is all cleaned and prepared the
00:17:49
Speaker
Apparently the old lady was expecting them.
00:17:52
Speaker
She's got like kind of some psychic powers and stuff.
00:17:56
Speaker
Like me with whether or not movies are going to be good or bad without watching the trailers.
00:18:01
Speaker
And basically it comes out that it is her daughter, the king queen's daughter.
00:18:07
Speaker
And so they have her back.
00:18:11
Speaker
And the queen had, the old lady had said, like, my time, your time with me is over.
00:18:19
Speaker
And the old lady, like, disappears.
00:18:22
Speaker
and the the um pearls that she the girl had cried the old lady had like kept them and now it's like wealth more than the kingdom and the cottage went after the old lady disappeared turned into like this beautiful king like beautiful castle and um
00:18:44
Speaker
And it's insinuated that the count and the princess marry and live there.
00:18:54
Speaker
And it's funny because this fairy tale actually ends before it ends.
00:18:59
Speaker
And it goes on to say, like, my mother told me this story and she forgot how it ended.
00:19:04
Speaker
But I think it ended like this.
00:19:06
Speaker
That, like, they get the kingdom and such.
00:19:09
Speaker
And that the old lady wasn't a witch but was a wise woman.
00:19:14
Speaker
And it was so interesting to me.
00:19:16
Speaker
I'm not a witch, I'm a white woman.
00:19:19
Speaker
That this was like the inversion of typical fairy tales in that, in that, oh, and it said that,
00:19:30
Speaker
that we think that the girl was blessed with this gift of crying pearls when she was born, probably by that wise woman.
00:19:39
Speaker
And so unlike, is it Sleeping Beauty, Melissa Ficent, she like curses the girl.
00:19:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:46
Speaker
And,
00:19:47
Speaker
and then like kidnaps her.
00:19:49
Speaker
But in this story, the wise woman blesses her and then receives her when she is exiled.
00:19:58
Speaker
And so it was like an interesting inversion.
00:20:02
Speaker
And so I was talking about this with Ellie and thought that was cool.
00:20:05
Speaker
And she was like, one thing that bothers me is that
00:20:10
Speaker
Like the count got to marry this great girl and got this great kingdom, but he didn't really do it because he was a great guy.
00:20:17
Speaker
Like because it's insinuated that his reward, this was like kind of he got his reward from taking the woman's stuff up the mountain.
00:20:25
Speaker
And he's like, he didn't really want to go to those lengths.
00:20:29
Speaker
He was forced.
00:20:30
Speaker
He was forced.
00:20:31
Speaker
He was whipped.
00:20:33
Speaker
And then he got to marry it.
00:20:34
Speaker
And then we were like thinking, hmm, but is there wisdom in that as well?
00:20:41
Speaker
That I think it's like some of like what we were talking about.
00:20:44
Speaker
A lot of the good stuff that happens to us is not because we were so good.
00:20:48
Speaker
Because we're gifted with it.
00:20:49
Speaker
But we were gifted and...
00:20:52
Speaker
the hard things that we go through can turn into that blessing in the end, like tears turning into pearls.
00:21:01
Speaker
And it just seemed
00:21:03
Speaker
It seemed cool how like, like this wasn't explicitly said within the fairy tale and you wouldn't necessarily even have to like think all these things out.
00:21:12
Speaker
Right.
00:21:13
Speaker
But I like how like just reading it and like reading it to your children can kind of infuse them with like these meanings, like just this worldview that they don't even know exactly what it all means.
00:21:25
Speaker
There's some mystery in it.
00:21:27
Speaker
But there's some wisdom too that we don't always understand that
00:21:30
Speaker
hmm, he didn't really deserve that.
00:21:33
Speaker
But sometimes we start off doing something hard that we didn't really want to do, and the Lord takes that and really blesses it through his grace.
00:21:44
Speaker
Yeah, that's quite cool.
00:21:48
Speaker
Oh, I had a thought, and now that thought has escaped me.
00:21:52
Speaker
Like a pearl leaving my eye painfully.
The Value of Whimsy and Wonder
00:21:54
Speaker
Gotta save that.
00:21:55
Speaker
So,
00:21:57
Speaker
Now I can buy new mics for the podcast.
00:22:01
Speaker
Oh, darn.
00:22:01
Speaker
What was it going to... What was it going to... Shoot.
00:22:06
Speaker
It's totally gone.
00:22:07
Speaker
It seemed like a good tie-in to that, like I talk about gratitude.
00:22:11
Speaker
It did.
00:22:11
Speaker
Because, like, the bad things turning out for good.
00:22:15
Speaker
Like, everything sad coming untrue kind of thing.
00:22:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:19
Speaker
No, I like...
00:22:21
Speaker
I like what you said about it not necessarily being explicitly stated in it, too.
00:22:28
Speaker
Like, I wonder if the author had all these things in mind or if it was just... Because that could easily just be conventions of the time.
00:22:35
Speaker
It's like, oh, and then they're going to get married, you know, because he did the trial, you know.
00:22:40
Speaker
But God still, just through the author or storyteller or wherever that tale originated from,
00:22:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think like these fairy tales are just kind of... Probably like an oral tradition.
00:22:52
Speaker
Oral tradition, like mothers and stuff would like tell them to their kids and Grimm's like kind of just collected them and wrote them down in their own way.
00:22:59
Speaker
Right.
00:23:01
Speaker
But I love that just God can work through that to give the theme just because they're being a responsible artist in creating something.
00:23:09
Speaker
But there are a lot of interesting inversions on the fairy tale.
00:23:13
Speaker
Like even in that that is less of a tragedy and I think a lot of the like fairy tales we think of are very tragic and they start not great and then it's like there's a really great lovely person trying to achieve something and then it gets goes really wrong.
00:23:28
Speaker
Right.
00:23:31
Speaker
This is like a somewhat reluctant dude and an old, probably implied, not very attractive woman end up getting this very beautiful ending from this very benevolent, lovely person.
00:23:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:47
Speaker
I think that's quite interesting.
00:23:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:49
Speaker
I think we've probably talked about it, but like you don't always in your art need to like think
00:23:56
Speaker
think of all these deep and meanings to it.
00:23:58
Speaker
But if you're telling a true story, there's so much can be brought out of that.
00:24:02
Speaker
So there's just like told a true story as it were.
00:24:06
Speaker
And that's how the world works.
00:24:08
Speaker
Tears get turned into pearls.
00:24:09
Speaker
That's true.
00:24:12
Speaker
No, but what I love about that, which ties into some of what I would talk about with my thing that I've been reading, um, is I think there's a whimsy and a joy and a wonder to that, that I think that we lack today.
00:24:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:24
Speaker
Um,
00:24:25
Speaker
Okay, that we lack in the West, namely America, because that's what I know.
00:24:30
Speaker
I can't speak for Nigerian art because I've not experienced Nigerian art.
00:24:35
Speaker
So maybe Nigeria is full of whimsy and wonder and joy in their art.
00:24:39
Speaker
They totally could be.
Humility and Truth in Art
00:24:41
Speaker
Probably need it with a lot of their living conditions.
00:24:46
Speaker
But I feel like we...
00:24:51
Speaker
really prize realism.
00:24:53
Speaker
Like we're on our like second realistic Batman take when we had one five years ago, you know, like we want to make all of our fantasy stories real and raw.
00:25:02
Speaker
And I love those.
00:25:04
Speaker
I heard in a different podcast that are you referencing a different podcast on this?
00:25:09
Speaker
Don't listen to another podcast.
00:25:11
Speaker
This is our original thought.
00:25:14
Speaker
But that like, uh,
Fantasy's Role in Storytelling
00:25:19
Speaker
Realism stories are like the only like fake stories because like Because I remember all the things but that's like not how I think when it's like the highest aim Right, because I would look exactly like the Dark Knight trilogy and the Batman I think are great movies and
00:25:43
Speaker
that are very realistic takes on Batman.
00:25:46
Speaker
But they're just realistic because that's just more the style, whereas really they're trying to go at something true about the character, and that's just sort of the traffic.
00:25:55
Speaker
I'm remembering the point was, like, realism doesn't take in account that we are, like, spitting around the world at Mach 80 or whatever, like that, spitting around a star, and all these crazy things happen.
00:26:08
Speaker
They just...
00:26:10
Speaker
They don't take into account the supernatural, which is real.
00:26:13
Speaker
And they just think, okay, we'll just talk about the facts, the physical things.
00:26:18
Speaker
And that's fantasy because the fantasy world has more connection with reality because it accounts for supernatural.
00:26:25
Speaker
I like that.
00:26:26
Speaker
And I think, again, if you're just focused on true and you're just focusing on like...
00:26:33
Speaker
The facts... The spiritual can still be in there.
00:26:35
Speaker
Exactly.
00:26:36
Speaker
Exactly.
00:26:36
Speaker
I think it is for, again, those Batman movies I'm talking about.
00:26:39
Speaker
I think there's a lot of emotional, spiritual, like, rich things going on in those characters.
00:26:45
Speaker
Even though they're like, we're going to be realistic and he's going to drive, like, a tank or, like, Camaro as the Batmobile, you know.
00:26:55
Speaker
But it still has this mythic quality to it in some sense.
00:26:58
Speaker
But I just feel like we've tended to, like...
00:27:02
Speaker
just become very cynical as America.
00:27:04
Speaker
And I think that we have a hard time recognizing in at least like in film and I think in writing, although I guess I'm not, I'm not the expert on that, but I feel like at least like fantasy stories and things, I feel like they have the tendency to be much more like,
00:27:24
Speaker
You know, we want to follow like the Game of Thrones vibes where it's like really intense and dark and is like what like a medieval society would really be like, you know, and... Rather nihilist.
Timeless Value of Myths and Fairy Tales
00:27:33
Speaker
Right.
00:27:34
Speaker
Like I think we're taking the joy and the whimsy out of those things that we've created to be ultra fantastical.
00:27:41
Speaker
Um...
00:27:42
Speaker
Not exclusively.
00:27:43
Speaker
Because like reality is we have angels around us doing things and devils.
00:27:50
Speaker
And that's the world that we're living in.
00:27:52
Speaker
And where like babies get born out of just like a simple act.
00:27:59
Speaker
Yep.
00:28:00
Speaker
And just crazy things are happening and we just are used to it.
00:28:04
Speaker
We're just simply used to it and we give it a name and we see that something happened before.
00:28:09
Speaker
So there's a reason to it, but really we don't understand why these things happen.
00:28:13
Speaker
And I think that fantasy in particular, like fantasy and myths and fairy tales, and I would say superheroes to an extent too, because I think superheroes are the myths of our day.
00:28:23
Speaker
Like I think there are Hercules, you know?
00:28:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:25
Speaker
Um,
00:28:26
Speaker
I think that these stories are uniquely positioned to help us remember the joy and the wonder in that, right?
00:28:34
Speaker
Like, think about how all of our parents or grandparents were just... Like the original Superman movie, where the tagline is, you'll believe a man can fly.
00:28:43
Speaker
And like, the real... I mean, the characters in that movie, the character work in the romance in that is lovely.
00:28:48
Speaker
But...
00:28:50
Speaker
just the whimsy of, oh my gosh, I'm watching a man fly.
00:28:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:54
Speaker
You know, I'm reading about this teenager who's like me, who also is like swinging through ropes through New York city, like an acrobat, like Cirque du Soleil times a thousand, you know?
00:29:05
Speaker
Um,
00:29:07
Speaker
And I feel like now it's just like, oh, yeah, Spider-Man swings on a way.
00:29:11
Speaker
Superman flies around and punches things.
00:29:13
Speaker
And I don't think we've always lost the whimsy and the wonder.
00:29:16
Speaker
But I think a lot of times it's just sort of cynically nihilistically looked at like, oh, yeah, that's what we're doing.
00:29:21
Speaker
Now let's figure out.
00:29:23
Speaker
How we can make the money or how we can get the character to go through this ringer and this and that and there's not a lot of time for The wonder so I've been reading the Silmarillion finally.
00:29:34
Speaker
It's like my eighth attempt.
00:29:36
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think it's my eighth but like it's I've tried several times.
00:29:40
Speaker
How are you liking it?
00:29:41
Speaker
I'm loving it which is
00:29:44
Speaker
It's both not a surprise and a surprise because I love like fantasy worlds and the lore of fantasy worlds.
00:29:52
Speaker
It's one of my great joys and hobbies.
00:29:58
Speaker
But I also sometimes just have struggled to get through Tolkien's prose.
00:30:01
Speaker
But as I've talked about, I think on the podcast previously, I've kind of slow, I found myself enjoying a slower pace in my reading, which I think kind of connects to this thought about whimsy and wonder and joy, but I'll get there in a minute.
00:30:16
Speaker
But that's allowed me to enjoy the Silmarillion much more.
00:30:19
Speaker
Let me... Isn't the prose beautiful?
00:30:21
Speaker
The prose is lovely.
00:30:22
Speaker
I'm going to quick, just in case there's people listening to the podcast, like some of our theater friends who are not ultra geeks, who don't know what the Silmarillion is.
00:30:31
Speaker
The Silmarillion is basically Tolkien's Bible for Lord of the Rings, I think is the best way.
00:30:37
Speaker
It's like the Old Testament, but for Lord of the Rings.
00:30:40
Speaker
So Tolkien weaves this beautiful creation myth
00:30:44
Speaker
which is the most beautiful creation myth outside of scripture, I think.
00:30:49
Speaker
And I think is a really wonderful lens to see the beauty and joy and wonder that Tolkien sees in creation.
00:30:56
Speaker
It's just, he literally, he just makes creation the musical, is what he writes.
00:31:02
Speaker
It's just, you could turn it into an opera or a symphony and it would be one of the most beautiful things, just with the concepts and ideas he puts forth in that, it's lovely.
00:31:10
Speaker
Ellie wants to turn into a ballet.
00:31:13
Speaker
I want to... Okay, one of my dreams would be to do a Silmarillion trilogy of musicals.
00:31:21
Speaker
Because I think the Silmarillion should never be adapted to film because of its mythic quality that I'm going to talk about.
00:31:29
Speaker
Okay.
00:31:30
Speaker
Okay.
00:31:34
Speaker
So, yeah, I paused.
00:31:35
Speaker
I was like, should I talk about the mythic quality now and then come back to this?
00:31:38
Speaker
I'll finish this mini thought and then I'll go to the mythic quality.
00:31:40
Speaker
Anyways, I think film would do a disservice to the Silmarillion because of how simple and real and raw that is.
00:31:48
Speaker
But I think the Silmarillion needs to be larger than life.
00:31:52
Speaker
And I think it would only be accurately captured in something like animation, a ballet, a symphony, or a musical.
00:31:58
Speaker
Hmm.
00:31:59
Speaker
So I want to create a trilogy of musicals if the Tolkien estate would ever let me.
00:32:03
Speaker
And if I could get a composer who would work with me, I would want to do a Baron and Luthien musical, which is this beautiful love story that Tolkien writes, which I'm in the middle of.
00:32:11
Speaker
It's my favorite.
00:32:12
Speaker
It's mythic.
00:32:13
Speaker
It's...
00:32:14
Speaker
It has vibes of Hadestown, but in a fantastical world.
00:32:18
Speaker
It's very fairytale-esque.
00:32:20
Speaker
It's so fairytale-esque.
00:32:21
Speaker
But there's also with Tolkien's rich theological lens and cosmology that's very Christian and Catholic inspired.
00:32:32
Speaker
My son is named after.
00:32:34
Speaker
Your son is named after?
00:32:35
Speaker
It's such a rich world.
00:32:37
Speaker
So I would want to do that.
00:32:38
Speaker
And then...
00:32:39
Speaker
I'd love to do one of something of the events that I'm still like figuring out what would the structure of that be.
00:32:45
Speaker
But Feanor is such a interesting.
00:32:49
Speaker
There's this elf called Feanor and he's this very gifted but very tragic and hubris filled character who would be incredible on stage as a musical.
00:33:03
Speaker
As a musical character kind of leading you through either at least the first half of a show and then kicking off events in the second half that people need to sort of figure out in his wake or just as the whole thing as this tragic figure.
00:33:16
Speaker
Wow.
00:33:17
Speaker
So something around Feanor I would want to be the first part.
00:33:20
Speaker
And then I think either something around Erendil or Children of Hurin, but I haven't read that part yet.
00:33:26
Speaker
But something around there would be the third part.
00:33:28
Speaker
That's a hard one.
00:33:29
Speaker
I know.
00:33:29
Speaker
But that would be my three parts.
00:33:31
Speaker
I would want a set that could turn into Ann Caligon, who's a really giant dragon.
00:33:36
Speaker
Oh, nice.
00:33:36
Speaker
So I basically want to build this set that is this really amazing, beautiful city and then could be deconstructed and turned into this giant dragon that absorbs the entire stage that the actors fight.
00:33:46
Speaker
That'd be crazy.
00:33:47
Speaker
This is like my theater pipe dream.
00:33:49
Speaker
Anyways.
00:33:50
Speaker
But it's just...
00:33:52
Speaker
Tolkien loved... I haven't talked about, I guess, Tolkien's inspiration behind his role.
00:33:57
Speaker
Well, I did a little bit with Frodo, I guess.
00:33:59
Speaker
But like this aspect of it.
00:34:01
Speaker
Tolkien absolutely loved, as you know.
00:34:03
Speaker
Now I'm just talking to our audience.
00:34:05
Speaker
We'll just look at the camera for this part.
00:34:07
Speaker
So, lecture time.
00:34:10
Speaker
This man's not here.
00:34:12
Speaker
I'm only talking to you.
00:34:13
Speaker
I'll just talk to you, camera two.
00:34:16
Speaker
But Tolkien loved myth, especially like Norse myth, Norse mythology.
00:34:23
Speaker
That was how he and Lewis sort of initially...
00:34:27
Speaker
were attracted to each other as friends because they were just at this party.
00:34:31
Speaker
And then Tolkien and Lewis happened to be by each other and were like, wait, you like Norse myth too?
00:34:35
Speaker
I like Norse myth.
00:34:36
Speaker
We're two Oxford dudes who love Norse myth.
00:34:38
Speaker
This is great.
00:34:39
Speaker
Is that right?
00:34:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:40
Speaker
I think that was like their initial meeting was like, oh my gosh, you love mythology.
00:34:43
Speaker
I love mythology.
00:34:44
Speaker
Let's talk mythology because no one else here is talking mythology with us.
00:34:49
Speaker
Tolkien always lamented that England's mythology was King Arthur.
00:34:53
Speaker
He didn't...
00:34:56
Speaker
He like wrote some King Arthur, like base things, like translated some things.
00:35:00
Speaker
So he respected it, but he was like, England could have such a better mythology.
00:35:04
Speaker
It wasn't even English.
00:35:06
Speaker
It was like taken from like traumatic or something like that.
00:35:08
Speaker
Right.
00:35:09
Speaker
So he was like inspired by Norse mythology.
00:35:13
Speaker
So a lot of very pagan influences in his art.
00:35:17
Speaker
Um,
00:35:18
Speaker
But so he almost just, I think as, I mean, he was a part of this great, wonderful group of artists called the Inklings who would meet.
00:35:27
Speaker
And he really needed an escape from like all of his professorial work.
00:35:32
Speaker
And so he just sort of started to build this language and this world.
00:35:36
Speaker
And he created the world.
00:35:36
Speaker
How did he have time to do that?
00:35:38
Speaker
I don't know.
00:35:39
Speaker
The man was a genius and crazy.
00:35:41
Speaker
Maybe it's really a cushy job being a professor.
00:35:45
Speaker
Let's do it, you and I. Let's get a graduate degree and become profs.
00:35:49
Speaker
We can live in those prof dorms and just work two days a week.
00:35:56
Speaker
Go to the pub.
00:35:58
Speaker
Talk about it.
00:35:58
Speaker
Talk about the worlds we're making.
00:36:00
Speaker
And then one of us will inevitably not love the other's world as much, and it will fracture our friendship.
00:36:06
Speaker
I think it will be my wife that will fraction our friendship.
00:36:10
Speaker
Oh, because of joy.
00:36:12
Speaker
Yes.
00:36:12
Speaker
Yeah, you're right.
00:36:14
Speaker
Tolkien didn't like Lewis's marriage for reasons.
00:36:17
Speaker
We'll talk about that later.
00:36:18
Speaker
I'm going to talk to Walt Williams soon, and he's in Shadowlands.
00:36:21
Speaker
Right.
00:36:22
Speaker
That story.
00:36:23
Speaker
Tune into an upcoming episode or a previous episode, depending on when I post this episode.
00:36:30
Speaker
But yeah, so Tolkien eventually posthumously has this published by his son, Christopher, and it is just the best compilation of all of Tolkien's various myths that he created in this fictional world.
00:36:42
Speaker
And they are so larger than life.
00:36:44
Speaker
They are crazy.
00:36:45
Speaker
They're literally...
00:36:47
Speaker
They are unbelievable stories, not just in the sense of, wow, these are so fantastical, but also in the sense of sometimes you're like, the logic here maybe does attract.
00:36:56
Speaker
Like at one point he's just like, there was an elf king and he basically literally fought Satan and held his own for a decent chunk of time.
00:37:04
Speaker
He dies, as you would do, but he makes Satan never come out again.
00:37:09
Speaker
Like, that's crazy.
00:37:11
Speaker
But in and amongst all these crazy larger-than-life things, there's just this truth that resonates throughout in all these various stories that shines through bravery, beauty especially.
00:37:25
Speaker
I think beauty and tragedy, I think, are the two...
00:37:28
Speaker
thus far in my reading that I think are really the most elevated in this work of Tolkien's.
00:37:33
Speaker
Would you say a lot because his prose is so beautiful?
00:37:36
Speaker
I think that's part of it, but I also think Tolkien has this love for...
00:37:42
Speaker
creation that comes out even when he's not talking about creation because one of the one of the things that makes it hard for me to read lord of the rings is how long he takes describing nature and the world around because i would prefer to keep going with the characters right the silmarillion
00:38:04
Speaker
Part of why I say it's like the Old Testament of Tolkien is because it feels like the Old Testament where it's like you are getting sparse details about these characters.
00:38:11
Speaker
Kind of at that high level.
00:38:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's like a zoomed out summary of what the story is.
00:38:15
Speaker
Sometimes I'm going to get a dialogue.
00:38:16
Speaker
Sometimes you zoom in a little bit, then you're back out again.
00:38:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's like a real-time strategy game.
00:38:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:22
Speaker
But Tolkien.
00:38:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:24
Speaker
So he doesn't have time to tell me about what the world looks like as much.
00:38:29
Speaker
Like he'll still go into descriptions.
00:38:31
Speaker
There's a chapter on geography.
00:38:33
Speaker
It's pretty rough.
00:38:33
Speaker
Yes, I was like, I'm going to get through Balerion and its lands.
00:38:38
Speaker
I believe in myself.
00:38:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:40
Speaker
Outside of his one chapter on geography, he's largely just kind of like zooming through.
00:38:44
Speaker
But just even just like living in it, like you can just tell his love for beauty and the beauty that's infused into the world.
00:38:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:53
Speaker
Seeps through, even though he's largely just talking about the people and is listing all these names of things that you do not know and don't remember and have to flip to the appendix.
00:39:00
Speaker
Remember, what is this?
00:39:01
Speaker
Where's the index?
00:39:02
Speaker
What elf is this?
00:39:02
Speaker
Who's he connected to?
00:39:04
Speaker
What's this kingdom name?
00:39:05
Speaker
I know I've been here five times, but I've forgotten.
00:39:07
Speaker
He does that Lewis thing of like, and she, she was the most beautiful thing ever.
00:39:15
Speaker
Cause Lewis did like, and this tasted the best ever.
00:39:18
Speaker
And it gives you that like, that elevated longing for the perfect and heaven and such.
00:39:25
Speaker
But I think it's just wrapped in this beautiful air of mystery, which is incredible for how well thought out his world was that it was still so mysterious.
00:39:35
Speaker
and beauty that just reading through it, when I'm able to just kind of sit back and be like, I'm just going to sit with like a hot cocoa or in bed while I'm falling asleep and just kind of read a couple paragraphs that you can just sort of bask in this wonder of this world, which like fills me with creativity.
00:39:53
Speaker
Like I've been writing in my book and in the lore of my world a lot more since reading the Silmarillion because I feel like it just...
00:40:01
Speaker
I think part of that might be the beauty, wonder, mystery.
00:40:07
Speaker
Like those three things, I think when we engage with those more, they fill us up creatively and spiritually in ways that then let us pour out things into others when we just kind of embrace those.
00:40:21
Speaker
Which is hard to do because beauty always comes with tragedy and wonder always comes with either confusion of how does that work or like...
00:40:30
Speaker
cynicism or disillusionment and mystery always comes with fear you know there's always this flip side to these things so it's hard to kind of
00:40:41
Speaker
focus in it makes me think i'm reading revelation right now and it is it is all those things that you're just saying i'm i'm kind of reading it like at fairly big chunks at time and not worried too much at like flipping up all around it what does this mean you know there's cross-reference everything yeah yeah but just like reading it and like the wash of it it's very beautiful it is and
00:41:06
Speaker
And mysterious.
00:41:07
Speaker
Like, I don't know when this is happening, if this is talking about then or now or in the future.
00:41:13
Speaker
For like different things it's talking about.
00:41:16
Speaker
There's a fear to it, but there's a beauty at Christ in it.
00:41:22
Speaker
And it does give you that mysterious and wonderful wash.
00:41:27
Speaker
I feel like revelation is something that Christians just need to live in throughout their entire walk and not try and explain it.
00:41:34
Speaker
But just be like, I'm going to just, I think it's helpful to know the context of things.
00:41:38
Speaker
Like to know John was writing about this emperor probably, right?
00:41:42
Speaker
And there was this happening in the church.
00:41:43
Speaker
Like I think those things can be helpful.
00:41:45
Speaker
But I think...
00:41:47
Speaker
A lot of times it's good to just kind of be like, this is beyond our understanding.
00:41:52
Speaker
Right.
00:41:52
Speaker
Because even the prophecies about Christ, like in Isaiah, where we're reading a whole thing, we're like, this is clearly Christ.
00:41:59
Speaker
Like, he's talking about it one to one.
00:42:01
Speaker
Like, there's sections where that's definitely it.
00:42:03
Speaker
But nobody thought that at the time.
00:42:05
Speaker
So it's like, just kind of living in it and letting yourself embrace the beauty and wonder.
00:42:09
Speaker
Right.
00:42:10
Speaker
And maybe you can do both.
00:42:11
Speaker
I think so.
00:42:24
Speaker
You need to endure.
00:42:26
Speaker
And Jesus is coming back.
00:42:27
Speaker
Jesus is coming.
00:42:29
Speaker
Bad things going to happen.
00:42:31
Speaker
And are you ready to endure and die?
00:42:33
Speaker
Because you're going to get, if you don't endure, you're going to be suffering for forever.
00:42:39
Speaker
If you do endure and die, then things are going to be awesome.
00:42:43
Speaker
Right.
00:42:44
Speaker
And I think there's maybe a humility to that for us, both as Christians,
00:42:50
Speaker
Artisan as a audience taking in a work of art or taking in scripture to be willing to just meet the art where it's at and not try and make it something.
00:43:05
Speaker
Be willing to just say, I don't know, or this doesn't make sense, but maybe I'm going to go with it.
00:43:10
Speaker
Mm hmm.
00:43:14
Speaker
I was pondering if I was going to use a controversial example that most people wouldn't agree with.
00:43:19
Speaker
And I don't need to.
00:43:19
Speaker
It's from a DC movie.
00:43:20
Speaker
And I feel like people are going to, I feel like that's going to lessen my point.
00:43:23
Speaker
So I won't.
00:43:25
Speaker
John loves all the DC movies.
00:43:27
Speaker
Not all of them.
00:43:29
Speaker
Most of them.
00:43:29
Speaker
I don't love Suicide Squad.
00:43:31
Speaker
I like the Suicide Squad.
00:43:33
Speaker
I don't need to talk about which DC movies I do and don't like.
00:43:35
Speaker
That's a tangent.
00:43:38
Speaker
But I will someday.
00:43:41
Speaker
i will talk about man of steel one day that's a hope-filled movie for how dark it is i think that is a movie bursting with hope anyways um i just couldn't resist i couldn't resist defending one um that wasn't the one i was going to talk about but i think like it's like it's suspension of disbelief and i think a lot of times we'll look at something and just be like that doesn't make sense that's stupid right maybe we just need to be humble enough to just be like
00:44:08
Speaker
Let's let it go and just kind of see what is the saying underneath right?
00:44:12
Speaker
Why are they using this?
00:44:13
Speaker
I am gonna use the example the Martha scene in Batman is a stupidly written scene it is because Batman's about to kill Superman because Batman is threatened by Superman and is paranoid and he's in a very bad place in his life and then Superman says save Martha because both their mom's name is Martha and Batman is suddenly like whoa I can't kill you now um
00:44:34
Speaker
And it is a badly written scene.
00:44:38
Speaker
But if you were just to let yourself go with it and just be like, hang on, let me just try and see what is the writer and the director trying to do in this.
00:44:47
Speaker
What's happening there that I don't think is well executed.
00:44:51
Speaker
So we can have a discussion of like, it should be better executed.
00:44:55
Speaker
But just as an example of like,
00:44:58
Speaker
Letting letting yourself kind of go with something that maybe you don't think makes sense Or maybe you have a hard time just kind of getting past what's really in the core there is Batman is realizing that this thing that he's terrified of is actually human It's as human as he is and he's realizing I'm about to do to somebody basically what's been done to me somebody who has just as much value and worth as me and who is just as human as I am and
00:45:23
Speaker
And I'm stupidly almost getting emotionally affected by this.
00:45:26
Speaker
I'm feeling my tear ducts open.
00:45:28
Speaker
No, that's good.
00:45:29
Speaker
I like that.
00:45:30
Speaker
And it was a badly written scene.
00:45:31
Speaker
But I think it's a good example of like, that is something that does not make sense.
00:45:35
Speaker
That's not how you would probably go about that situation.
00:45:38
Speaker
Just like an elf wouldn't really be able to fight Satan and wound him bad enough that Satan would be like, I don't actually want to come out and fight anybody again.
00:45:47
Speaker
Or like a little shepherd boy wouldn't be able to knock down a giant.
00:45:52
Speaker
A giant.
00:45:53
Speaker
If, listen, if a shepherd boy could knock down a giant, then Superman could save Martha.
00:45:59
Speaker
That is way more likely, right?
00:46:01
Speaker
Way more likely.
00:46:02
Speaker
We say Martha all the time.
00:46:04
Speaker
Way more often.
00:46:05
Speaker
So much more often than we kill giants.
00:46:09
Speaker
And I don't think we have, I don't think that that then means that we have to say, I wholeheartedly love this piece of art.
00:46:16
Speaker
Right.
00:46:16
Speaker
But I think it's valuable as an artist and as a audience member to have the humility, to be willing to go with something that's fantastical or doesn't make sense and just say, I'm just going to meet this where it's at and see what is human and true at the core of this.
00:46:33
Speaker
And can I resonate with that?
00:46:35
Speaker
It does take humility because it's so much, it can be more,
00:46:40
Speaker
In one way, it can be more fun to be the critic.
00:46:42
Speaker
I'm smarter than this.
00:46:43
Speaker
Right.
00:46:44
Speaker
Like, why are they remaking How to Train Your Dragon?
00:46:46
Speaker
Shot for Shot.
00:46:47
Speaker
Maybe if I approached it with a little bit of humility.
00:46:50
Speaker
Maybe there is something really beautiful in that movie that I need to give a shot to.
00:46:56
Speaker
But it's a balance, right?
00:46:57
Speaker
Because you don't just want to take all art as good.
00:47:00
Speaker
Like a Shot for Shot remake of How to Train Your Dragon?
00:47:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:04
Speaker
But more what you want to have it be in tune to as like, is this art telling me a lie?
00:47:10
Speaker
Right?
00:47:10
Speaker
Like, is there something true in this or is this just cynical or trying to force something down my throat?
00:47:18
Speaker
Versus is it like earnest?
00:47:19
Speaker
You know, I think we live in a day and age where we're lacking earnesty in a lot of things, but art especially.
00:47:28
Speaker
And I think being able to recognize, is this earnestly trying to share something true with me?
00:47:34
Speaker
And if so, am I willing to meet it and see what it's saying?
00:47:37
Speaker
Even if I don't end up loving it at the end, am I willing to kind of just go with it a minute and appreciate what is earnest and true about it?
00:47:46
Speaker
Which I think is something we can learn from myths and fairy tales, right?
00:47:51
Speaker
Because I think a lot of times we'll think of fairy tales as like these crazy wacky kids stories where all these crazy things don't happen.
00:47:56
Speaker
But really beautiful things happen in fairy tales.
00:47:59
Speaker
If we're willing to not critique that
00:48:02
Speaker
you know, pearls falling from somebody's ears.
00:48:05
Speaker
Right, like, pearls falling, crying, like, pearls crying from somebody's tears is stupid.
00:48:10
Speaker
If we are willing to just be like, no, let's just go with it.
00:48:13
Speaker
Right.
00:48:14
Speaker
Let's go with a weird emerald-built book.
00:48:16
Speaker
That is not how a book would be made, but let's just go with it.
00:48:19
Speaker
You know?
00:48:21
Speaker
What is there to learn there?
00:48:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think they can do really rich.
00:48:27
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:48:29
Speaker
Do you have any other thoughts on myth or fairy tales along this vein?
00:48:34
Speaker
We'll probably come back to myths and fairy tales a lot because you and I love that kind of storytelling.
00:48:39
Speaker
So anytime I'll have you back on, we could easily go ahead.
00:48:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that'd be good.
00:48:43
Speaker
I think this was lovely.
00:48:45
Speaker
Well, thank you for coming on again.
00:48:47
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for having me.
00:48:49
Speaker
This is so fun.