Transcript
Speaker: Hey friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John, the host, and today we're inviting back on my friend Nate Knobloch just for a special Thanksgiving episode.
Speaker: He had some thoughts about gratitude and such in the Christian life that we wanted to talk through.
Speaker: So we're going to talk about just that.
Speaker: What is that role in our life as Christians?
Speaker: What is the role of gratitude as artists?
Speaker: How can that help us with different things like our ego when we're
Speaker: We're feeling nervous about our art when we feel like we need to overwork ourselves.
Speaker: We have a really interesting discussion, just a lot of different things about how does that affect us as Christians and as artists.
Speaker: It's quite interesting.
Speaker: I really enjoyed the discussion.
Speaker: I'm excited to share it with you guys.
Speaker: So thanks for listening.
Speaker: I found out that the Minecraft movie is apparently going to be directed, going to be, it's been directed now, by the guy who directed Napoleon Dynamite and Nacho the Great.
Speaker: Really?
Speaker: So now I'm much more intrigued by that movie.
Speaker: Did you see the second trailer for that?
Speaker: I did.
Speaker: That looked more legit.
Speaker: It did look more legit.
Speaker: And I saw behind the scene things that was like, oh, this isn't all green screen.
Speaker: They actually built sets for this.
Speaker: I know, that was shocking.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I'm very like... It looked like green screen the movie.
Speaker: It did.
Speaker: That one I've actually, even since the first trailer, I was kind of like, I know this looks like it's the worst thing ever.
Speaker: I wonder if that's intentional.
Speaker: How would it be intentional?
Speaker: Well, it's called a Minecraft movie.
Speaker: So that to me feels like the people creating it are aware that it's kind of weird to do a live action Minecraft movie.
Speaker: I saw an explanation for that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Is that the director or whatever said that...
Speaker: They're not trying to make the definitive Minecraft movie.
Speaker: Because Minecraft is so huge and you can have so many adventures there.
Speaker: This is just...
Speaker: Like, you can do it so many ways.
Speaker: This is just one thing.
Speaker: A Minecraft movie.
Speaker: But yeah, I don't know.
Speaker: It feels like it has more artistic something underneath it than the How to Train Your Dragon live action movie.
Speaker: Which is weird, because if you were to tell me, like, on page, I'd probably be like, I feel like the How to Train Your Dragon one would have more...
Speaker: At least the Minecraft one's original then, right?
Speaker: I guess.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I just feel like the people behind it are trying to do something interesting and creative with it.
Speaker: Whereas just seeing the same How to Train Your Dragon shots in live action that were just in animated...
Speaker: then it feels to me like you're not taking it and trying to do something with it.
Speaker: You're just copying it so that you can have a live action version.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Which is maybe not what they're doing.
Speaker: Those are iconic shots.
Speaker: But people do do that though.
Speaker: Because that's what the Lion King was, right?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: It was.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I just, I don't know.
Speaker: I'm skeptical.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Anyways, maybe we'll jump into the middle of that.
Speaker: We're going to start by talking about how to train your dragon in Minecraft.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's the vibe.
Speaker: That's art.
Speaker: Well, they might be art.
Speaker: Could be bad art.
Speaker: Could be horrible art.
Speaker: Horrible commercial art, which a lot of the art that we revere now was horrible commercial art of its day.
Speaker: I don't know if it was horrible, but I don't know.
Speaker: Like there was just commercialism and art was like a big thing.
Speaker: Like the Sistine Chapel was just a big giant paycheck for Michelangelo.
Speaker: It is disillusioning when you like go there.
Speaker: I've heard that you like look up and there's like, on one of the goblets there's like a Coke logo and it's like, come on, Michelangelo.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Come on, Michelangelo.
Speaker: I totally believed you for like 0.5 seconds.
Speaker: I was like, somebody just went up there and slapped a Coke logo on there.
Speaker: What was the commercialism?
Speaker: Oh, I don't just like, well, I mean, religious art was like, that was what people would pay for was religious art.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: My mind was kind of like on sponsors.
Speaker: Oh, that's fair.
Speaker: Come to my booth where I sell thimbles.
Speaker: Well, there was that with gladiators.
Speaker: Gladiators were sponsored.
Speaker: oh i forgot yeah how did that work i they would do ad reads from the coliseum i guess the gladiator movie the first one was gonna have that in it and then they were like this seems too fake even though it was real this does not seem like it works in the time even though they did this so it'd be like for olive oil or something so really yeah well athletes were crazy about olive oil because it was olive oil and it's tasty but also they would like
Speaker: rub themselves down with oil and stuff beforehand.
Speaker: That'd be slippery.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That way you can worm out of the lion's mouth.
Speaker: And then they'll be satisfied with the taste of olive oil and it'll be great.
Speaker: And they're like, oh, wait a second, he's gone.
Speaker: He's gone.
Speaker: Oh, dang it.
Speaker: No Christians for me today.
Speaker: The church sponsored by what's a famous olive oil brand Bertoli I don't know The church sponsored by Bertoli The church sponsored by Kirkland Kirkland now in support of church unity Through martyrdom Let's go So we have Thanksgiving coming up And I bumped the table I need to stop calling attention I'm tapping the table Hell yeah
Speaker: But so Thanksgiving is coming up and you were talking about this Chesterton essay, which you read me a little bit of.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Prior to.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: Do you want to read just a little bit of that and then talk about what your thoughts were on that recently?
Speaker: When did you, when did you like read this?
Speaker: Was this super recent or was it like, I've kind of been like slowly working my way through his, um, orthodoxy book, which is like kind of his mere Christianity.
Speaker: Like this is what I think Christianity is.
Speaker: And this is how I got there sort of thing.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Which we know is Catholic, so it's heretic.
Speaker: No, it's not heretical.
Speaker: I think he wrote this before he was Catholic.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What did he start?
Speaker: Did he start out as something and then move Catholic?
Speaker: I think he was Anglican.
Speaker: Love it.
Speaker: As it should be.
Speaker: But then, yeah, so look out, though, because apparently moves Catholic.
Speaker: Oh, dang.
Speaker: To keep tapping, that was a problem.
Speaker: But one of them moved from Catholic to Anglican.
Speaker: I'm so confused.
Speaker: I don't really hear about that too much.
Speaker: From Catholic to Anglican?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Or do you?
Speaker: That was how the Anglican Church started.
Speaker: Everyone in the Anglican Church movement Catholic.
Speaker: King Henry VIII is it specifically?
Speaker: It was him.
Speaker: And then a bunch of people were like, since the king kind of just protected us from the Catholic Church, we could just reform and not be murdered.
Speaker: And then the next queen was like, no, I'm going to murder you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, there can be moves that way if you were like Catholic and then kind of reforming your theology, but still want to hold on to a lot of your Catholicism.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So I don't know a lot of personal people, but I know it happens.
Speaker: Frequently, but I also know it happens the other way where like yeah somebody raised like myself in a like Protestant church could get into that and then be like oh I actually like I'm even like a gateway drug is Anglicanism is a gateway drug either way
Speaker: Like, if you're Catholic, it's just ushering you onto Protestantism.
Speaker: If you're Protestant, it's just ushering you onto Catholicism.
Speaker: And some people stay there.
Speaker: They have to be very sticky to stay.
Speaker: It's very slippery right there.
Speaker: This is just such a horrible... Let's just... Every podcast, let's just do a reductive... Offend a different... Offend a different denomination.
Speaker: Let's just describe a denomination in a really reductive way.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I've enjoyed Anglicanism through you.
Speaker: Like when I've gone to your church.
Speaker: No, yeah.
Speaker: No, I like, I just thought the phrasing was like, I appreciate that from a distance by just you.
Speaker: That's not what I meant.
Speaker: I enjoy marijuana through you.
Speaker: I like hearing your stories about it.
Speaker: It's an Anglicanism contact buzz.
Speaker: The elevated time.
Speaker: Is that, what's that?
Speaker: That's when like, if somebody's like smoking marijuana, but you like are in the vicinity, then you might get a contact buzz because you're, you're inhaling it, but you're not like huffing it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So only contact buzz I get is when somebody brings my phone.
Speaker: That's a contact buzz.
Speaker: That is the right contact buzz to get in my opinion.
Speaker: So Thanksgiving and Chesterton.
Speaker: Chesterton is all about gratitude.
Speaker: I feel like he's someone that highly values
Speaker: Wonder and he really associates you get to wonder through gratitude because Because the world was made by someone and it's like amazing that it was that's a bit what he talks about here that I wanted to yeah to look at is that
Speaker: is that like the world basically, things didn't have to be how they are.
Speaker: He doesn't believe in just like natural fatalism, this led to this, led to this.
Speaker: He thinks that's just like ridiculous.
Speaker: And if something is happening, then it didn't have to have happened.
Speaker: If someone made it happen, it didn't have to have happened that way.
Speaker: So he much more, he believes in magic more than just things happening over the natural course.
Speaker: Like he'd sooner say that like a sun rising was magic that God just chooses to do like over and over.
Speaker: And an example of,
Speaker: An example of that is he's in the middle of a chapter talking about that kind of thing.
Speaker: And.
Speaker: He says, if the miller's third son, this is in the middle of a little talk, said to the fairy, explain why I must not stand on my head in the fairy palace.
Speaker: The other might fairly reply, well, if it comes to that, explain the fairy palace.
Speaker: If Cinderella says, how is it that I must leave the ball at 12?
Speaker: Her godmother might answer, well, how is it that you are going there till 12?
Speaker: Because we can so easily be like, why is it this way?
Speaker: Why does the world have these unfair rules?
Speaker: He talks close to that about like, people can be like upset that I only, I want to have like a whole bunch of women, you know?
Speaker: And he's like, you should, it's the most, should take it as the most amazing, wonderful thing that you can have one woman.
Speaker: And to just that perspective of when you like wish that you had something, it's like,
Speaker: You should be amazed that you have anything at all.
Speaker: I feel like that is very applicable.
Speaker: I think it's applicable everywhere, but in the arts to narrow in as I like to do on that thing.
Speaker: Mildly obsessive.
Speaker: I feel like that is very important because I think artists go through a lot of different seasons that they don't choose or necessarily want in their art.
Speaker: Like if you're a writer, you might just not be able to write and be like, what the heck?
Speaker: I want to write.
Speaker: I want to put something on the page.
Speaker: And for some reason I can't.
Speaker: Or as an actor, there might be a particular thing that you really want to do.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Or even as a director, you might be like, why is this the cast I'm stuck with?
Speaker: Like when I cast somebody as Jesus, I was like, what?
Speaker: But I have been, have I been, I think, well, okay.
Speaker: I've taught classes before.
Speaker: And when you teach classes, you have to cast everybody.
Speaker: So there are times when you cast everybody and you're just looking at a kid and you're like,
Speaker: You look like tree material.
Speaker: And sometimes it's like, well, they have to go here and it's not necessarily where I'd love to put them, but they just have to go here.
Speaker: And I think it can be, or like with an audience, I think every artist can relate to that where it's like you have an audience that watches your thing or reads your thing or looks at your thing and then just rips it to shreds or laughs where you don't want them to or reacts in a way that is not how my art should be perceived.
Speaker: Right, I deserve better.
Speaker: It deserves better.
Speaker: But then to quote Chesterton or not quote, play off of reference.
Speaker: How is it that you have an audience at all?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker: Yesterday at church, my pastor had a sermon about gratitude.
Speaker: And he had that really helpful perspective.
Speaker: He brought up, I think it's from Psalms, where it said, God withholds no good thing from the righteous.
Speaker: And I think we all know that.
Speaker: There's things that we'd like to have that we don't have, but if we don't have them and we're living for God, that means that it wouldn't be good for us to have them.
Speaker: Like it wouldn't be good for us to have that extra money or that house.
Speaker: And he even brought it into like hard things in our life.
Speaker: Like maybe it wouldn't be good for us to...
Speaker: To not have this struggle, to like not have like, like he even brought up like, like you wish that you could be more attracted to the opposite sex.
Speaker: And apparently God doesn't think that'd be good, at least right now, if you did, because...
Speaker: He works all things together for good.
Speaker: And so much the struggle is what brings to that ultimate good.
Speaker: And the things that we think are good can really bring our, be our downfall.
Speaker: Well, and I think of some of the most formative things for me as a person and artist have come from the struggles that God allowed to have happen.
Speaker: Um, and so I think a lot of times we jump the gun on like what we think we need.
Speaker: Um, um,
Speaker: In every stage of life as an artist or as a Christian or as a member of a family or a member of the church, you kind of jump the gun and are like, this is what I need.
Speaker: But really, that hard thing you're going through...
Speaker: might really be something that makes you a better person or maybe a person you will enjoy all the more.
Speaker: And like, I used to say this quite a lot.
Speaker: I don't now because now I have friends that I said this when I was introducing myself to the friends that I now have.
Speaker: But like, I would like this was not the first thing I said.
Speaker: This was not how I introduced myself to people.
Speaker: It was in my series of introductory conversations.
Speaker: But I would look back at my parents were divorced when I was quite young.
Speaker: And that was not my favorite thing.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: But give it a few years and I would look back and be like, you know, I don't know that I would change that because I wonder if without that, if I would be where I am now.
Speaker: I don't.
Speaker: I really am skeptical that I would be where I am artistically right now.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: If I...
Speaker: didn't end up having time alone at home because that was just what our family had to do.
Speaker: And then I shirked all my school responsibilities and watched the like behind the scenes of movies and that like lit the fire in me for art.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That now has us here.
Speaker: You know, I think we can all look back on things and be like,
Speaker: See that the path made sense and brought us there.
Speaker: It's a quote my priest loves.
Speaker: It's from J. Bird Crow by Wendell Berry, which I have not read, but I want to read.
Speaker: But it's just about a dude.
Speaker: He's a barber in a small town.
Speaker: I don't remember what time period.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: you get to it's all about like God's leading in life and near the end of the book.
Speaker: he has this line that I think I'm going to butcher the quote of, but he's like, as I look back over my life, I cannot escape the feeling that I have been led.
Speaker: Like he's been like through this whole time, I've never known where I've been going.
Speaker: But then when I look back through the entire life that has just been lived in this book, I cannot escape this feeling that I have been led by something to where I am.
Speaker: And I just think that's such a rich, true thing.
Speaker: That may be one of the reasons Horse and His Boy is, I think, my favorite.
Speaker: Oh, I love Horse and His Boy.
Speaker: Horse and His Boy is my favorite Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe book.
Speaker: There's Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and Horse and His Boy.
Speaker: And Horse and His Boy is the better.
Speaker: It's the better Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
Speaker: Get rid of Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
Speaker: They should call it the Horse and His Boy's wardrobe.
Speaker: Horse and His Boy and His Wardrobe.
Speaker: They just really need to slap a wardrobe in Horse and His Boy.
Speaker: They're missing that iconic image.
Speaker: The audience won't buy tickets if they're not seeing that wardrobe.
Speaker: Where's the good word carving in this book?
Speaker: I came to this children's story for some intricate craftsmanship that leads me to a magical world.
Speaker: And all I've got is the magical world.
Speaker: Where's the intricate craftsmanship?
Speaker: That's what Tolkien said.
Speaker: Tolkien never gave that guy a break.
Speaker: First he's Anglican, then he puts Santa Claus in his fantasy world.
Speaker: But that is like the message of the horse and his boy, how like Shasta's
Speaker: as this terrible life as a orphan and these things keep on happening.
Speaker: And he says like, and we keep running into these lions.
Speaker: Like most people don't even encounter one lion in their life.
Speaker: And we keep encountering them at like every corner.
Speaker: And then he's talking to Aslan and he's like, I was that lion.
Speaker: And I was doing these things for you when it was seeming scary and dangerous.
Speaker: That was me doing these things to protect you.
Speaker: That's one of my favorite passages.
Speaker: It might be my favorite passage in all of Narnia.
Speaker: Maybe not in all of Lewis's stuff, but definitely in all of Narnia.
Speaker: I think that is at least top five.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It makes me think of Job, too, which Job is even more mysterious in its ending.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Where you don't even get an answer.
Speaker: Although I heard, I can't remember what this take was from, but I thought it was interesting because I at least have read Job often as
Speaker: god just saying you don't need to know the answer i think that is partly true but i think there was a i think i just saw it on instagram so i have no idea where it was but it was somebody on a podcast was like also the point that god is making is that he's there because god does show up to be with job and answer job his answer is just i am god but also the answer is god's present um
Speaker: But also there's no why.
Speaker: It's an answer that avoids the question.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Here's the more important.
Speaker: That kind of comes back to the Chesterton of, well, why should you have a God who's with you and paying attention to you instead of why are these bad things happening to me?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: A lot can be said about just what are we putting our attention on.
Speaker: One of the tools Shay had been given in therapy in dealing with like depression and mental health things is creating a gratitude list.
Speaker: And that's a frequent thing therapists will give people who are struggling with depression of
Speaker: Like, hey, yeah, maybe you have a chemical imbalance and you can't fix all these things.
Speaker: But in the moment, a tool you can use to fight that is just be like, OK, I'm just going to focus on what are things I'm thankful about right now and just help me get through this moment by just being like, this thing is good and this is good and this is good.
Speaker: So then when our perspective is on God, which is the ultimate good thing, that's dope.
Speaker: That gets us through a lot.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, not all.
Speaker: I mean, it's I don't think it's a cure all because obviously.
Speaker: you can be looking at God and then like the Psalmist be like, but where are you?
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And even Jesus had those moments himself and he wasn't sinning in those moments.
Speaker: But I've heard it said that there's like technically no difference between thinking about yourself and suffering.
Speaker: And isn't that true in your experience when you're like self-conscious about yourself and like evaluating how am I feeling?
Speaker: How are other people viewing me?
Speaker: How am I doing in this situation?
Speaker: It's not fun.
Speaker: And I sometimes think, well, if I'm not thinking about the moment, then I'm not enjoying the moment, but it's like...
Speaker: That's not true.
Speaker: I enjoy things all the time without having to think about it.
Speaker: And then the moment I start thinking about it, it's like, there goes the joy.
Speaker: Yeah, that was a weird.
Speaker: No, I think that that really resonates.
Speaker: I often struggle with that because I'm like, I feel like you have to be, which maybe is just, I don't know, the world talking or something.
Speaker: But I feel like we are often like we have to be looking at the negative thing.
Speaker: so that we can evaluate it, so we can be aware of it.
Speaker: For myself, this comes out in like, if I want to live a holy life, I should constantly be examining myself and my pitfalls.
Speaker: But recently, in like the last couple of years, I feel like God has led me more to be like, I'm actually perfectly capable, John, of taking care of your holiness.
Speaker: Man.
Speaker: I'm like, what?
Speaker: He's like, if you just kind of, it's, I don't know if I have time to get into like a big theological thing.
Speaker: It's Romans 6 through 9, but there's the whole talk of dying to sin and you are a new man.
Speaker: And when you're living and focusing on the flesh and thinking about the flesh and living as one in the world, then that's not good.
Speaker: But we're rather to live as those...
Speaker: redeemed by christ and just trust the mystery of that and focus on that and that doesn't mean just ignore your sin and go on sinning right as paul would say by no means exclamation point he loves paul would text in all caps and use a lot of emojis like steaming from the ears
Speaker: Either that or like the smiley face with the hearts around it.
Speaker: Like that's for Philippians.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh man, that's... I can so resonate with it.
Speaker: I feel like that's been kind of the struggle of my life.
Speaker: But I've been... Being married and having a wife has helped me focus on the falsehood of...
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: That's great to have an outside view.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Which the church can serve as well, I think, if you're like, yeah, like, I don't think that exclusively has to come from the marriage.
Speaker: No, but no.
Speaker: But the idea of you don't need to be concentrating on yourself and what you do in order to be good.
Speaker: And that takes faith in God to do the work.
Speaker: Because I was like, it makes no sense to me.
Speaker: How can I be good without me trying to be good?
Speaker: And when I'm trying, I'm being self-conscious.
Speaker: And when I'm... It's like acting.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: We've come full circle back to art.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I talk about that a lot that time in Godspell because it fed right into this and probably haven't talked about it on the podcast, though, because we had that moment in rehearsal for Godspell where it was Jesus in the agony in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I remember I really like put myself into it.
Speaker: I was like, ah, this is good acting here.
Speaker: And I was a little disappointed when you wanted to keep me after class and try it again.
Speaker: You could all go.
Speaker: I'll see you up at my desk.
Speaker: John, you can compliment me in front of everyone.
Speaker: It's fine.
Speaker: I know I did great.
Speaker: But it was very humbling and good because what you had me do is just say the lines like I was talking, like me.
Speaker: Just like you had me like, say what I had for breakfast and then say the lines like I was saying what I had for breakfast.
Speaker: Which is something I stole.
Speaker: Unashamedly.
Speaker: That's okay.
Speaker: And it was one of those disappointing and relieving things that
Speaker: In that, oh, I'm better when I'm not trying because I want my trying and my acting to be really good because I put myself into it in my effort.
Speaker: I want it to be good.
Speaker: But you were teaching me that it's better if you just act natural and be yourself.
Speaker: And that's like, that doesn't seem like it could be true.
Speaker: There's no way that me, myself, am good enough.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: But, you know, God, this just teaches how like God made us to be the us that he made us.
Speaker: And we're not perfect.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But the usness that he put into us that he loves, he put that there for a reason.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, I love that.
Speaker: I love the phrase, the disappointing relief.
Speaker: That's a relief.
Speaker: I feel like that resonates with many, many things where it's like, this is disappointing and it's not what I want, but actually there's some weird piece that I find in this.
Speaker: Switchfoot called it the beautiful letdown.
Speaker: Cause like I vibe with that as an actor, there's definitely been times where it's like, John, you're not, you're just not acting enough.
Speaker: And I'm like, Oh shit, you're right.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: But I've definitely had times where it's just like, John, you just need, I think for me, probably in singing most often, I've frequently gotten the, John, you're just singing too hard.
Speaker: You know, you just need to let it be.
Speaker: And John, your voice sounds nice, which I don't think is true, but some people do for some reason.
Speaker: But then it's like that is terrifying for me.
Speaker: I'm very self-conscious about my voice.
Speaker: So when somebody is like, John, just your voice, just letting it be and just kind of trusting it, that's just good enough.
Speaker: It's like, oh, but man, I have all this like technique and cool things that I want to do to make it actually sound good.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But then also, so it's like, oh, man, I don't get to do that.
Speaker: But also then it's somebody just being like, that's enough.
Speaker: which for a Christian is God is enough, you know, and God in us is enough.
Speaker: So we don't have to.
Speaker: Him valuing you.
Speaker: And him sanctifying you.
Speaker: Like he'll get you there.
Speaker: And I think that's part of our role as the church, which maps to artists as well, right?
Speaker: Like if you're doing a collaborative art, you want to keep each other accountable.
Speaker: You want to make it better.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So as the church, um,
Speaker: Like if I'm going through life and like mostly trying to focus on God, but then this giant sin issue comes up that for some reason I'm not noticing.
Speaker: Hopefully the rest of the church can be like, hey, John, you've got this giant sin wart on your back and you need to take care of that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Which is scary to do.
Speaker: But again, there's like a disappointing relief in that.
Speaker: Isn't it interesting...
Speaker: that we would rather our efforts be good than our essentialness be good.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We want to earn it.
Speaker: Well, we want to be God.
Speaker: It's like that same essential fall.
Speaker: We want to be like able to achieve the thing and we just can't, but just the way we are is pretty nice.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so what's that part of us that wants to achieve it?
Speaker: What's behind that?
Speaker: Oh, there's probably a lot of different things for different people.
Speaker: What is it for you?
Speaker: Well, I think it comes down to pride, right?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I think it could be pride.
Speaker: I think it could also be fear or anxiety.
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: Because you don't believe that the eunice by itself is enough.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And there comes a not trusting in God to do the work and that he made something good.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Or like trusting in others.
Speaker: So it's like, well, I have to because I'm the one who can.
Speaker: It's probably...
Speaker: different for everybody depending on like upbringing and temperament for me definitely i think pride is part of that like anytime i'm playing a role i'm like
Speaker: don't need it to be better than anybody else, but I want it to be super unique.
Speaker: And I want to make it unique.
Speaker: Whereas it will just be unique by me playing the role in a very simple way.
Speaker: But I'm always like, oh, I got it.
Speaker: What's the John spin on this?
Speaker: And the John spin on it is that it's John.
Speaker: But I want to be remembered as having done something cool and unique.
Speaker: Whereas for other people, which I have some of this too, it could be like, I'm terrified that I'm not good enough for this.
Speaker: right and so I have to I have to prove and earn it which again I think could be connected to pride in some sense kind of in Lewis's description of like it's it's like self-focus yep I was just thinking of when Lewis talked about how a lot of our good attributes are just because of our good digestion it's what he calls it is basically it's just something inbuilt in you that maybe you're not tempted in a certain way but you didn't
Speaker: that's not because of you.
Speaker: You just weren't built to be tempted in this way.
Speaker: And so it's kind of like not so fun if that we can't take credit for our digestion.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: And so it just brings it back to not taking credit.
Speaker: Which sucks as people.
Speaker: I feel like we will.
Speaker: And as artists, because I feel like the ego for an artist is such a tricky, tricky thing to master.
Speaker: To some extent, I think the things that can be that can lead to an ego are not necessarily bad advocating for your art, knowing the worth of your art, you know, being able to create something and be like, this was good, or this was great.
Speaker: Like, I know this can stand up to here, especially because a lot of times you might be the person who has to fight for your art, you know?
Speaker: A lot of those things can be good, but then that can turn into this terrible egotistical monster or inferiority complex monster, the other side of that coin, which I feel like comes from that same thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: but then the lie is that we'll be happier if we get what we want, we get the credit.
Speaker: But we were just talking about how Hollywood actors are the happiest people on earth because they have.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But that the focus on the self, have you had it when you have like achieved something good and people have lauded you for it.
Speaker: And it's like, that's what I wanted.
Speaker: And it feels pretty empty.
Speaker: I have, I'm trying to think about when I have, well,
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It doesn't satisfy.
Speaker: You just need another hit in another minute.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: Like, well, I've played, I've done kind of a lot of my artistic dream projects, you know?
Speaker: I've now played Quasimodo and Hamlet, which are two pretty dope things to have on a resume.
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: And were two of my dream roles, like probably my top two.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I'm so blessed in that.
Speaker: I'm so blessed.
Speaker: And at your young age, too.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: It's crazy.
Speaker: I don't.
Speaker: Yeah, it floors me.
Speaker: It honestly does.
Speaker: And then getting to do God's belt.
Speaker: Like, those are three things that like, wow, amazing.
Speaker: Now it's like, well, we're in all the things now.
Speaker: I better hear some things I want you to do, John.
Speaker: But it was like, God's like, now that we got those out of the way.
Speaker: Fine, John, I'll let you get it out of your system.
Speaker: Now go do missions in Ruana.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: But like I don't feel all the better as an artist for that like really no like I still I'm
Speaker: trying to talk about a thing that I don't know if I can talk about yet.
Speaker: And meeting with some artists that I respect quite regularly about a thing.
Speaker: That is my passion project.
Speaker: Well, maybe not my passion project.
Speaker: It was kind of my idea.
Speaker: And I'm very happy to turn it, kind of involve these group of people and kind of let them take it.
Speaker: But even in that, I often...
Speaker: even though I've done a whole successful show and I've directed several shows and taught a class and played several roles.
Speaker: So it's like, wow, I'm just not good enough.
Speaker: I'm not as good as these people.
Speaker: I probably seem stupid here.
Speaker: You know, like it hasn't been fixed.
Speaker: Hasn't been fixed.
Speaker: And probably won't ever be fixed until eternity.
Speaker: But maybe, maybe I'll fix it.
Speaker: Where God's going to keep sanctifying you throughout life.
Speaker: So it's going to get better.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's why I don't quite buy into complete sanctification.
Speaker: Because I'm like, we just keep getting sanctified.
Speaker: Maybe you get like ultra sanctified, but not completely sanctified.
Speaker: So, well, that's lovely.
Speaker: And I, I feel like,
Speaker: Again, with all of this, I think it just comes back to like focusing in on God and being grateful for what has he given you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Even grateful for what has he given you in yourself, which that's an interesting thought because I feel like that could be, at least for young John growing up in the church, I feel like the idea of being like, what are things...
Speaker: Of my personality or myself that I'm thankful for.
Speaker: But even that's a good thing to be thankful for because God built you with that.
Speaker: If we're not thankful for him, we'll just be proud of it for our own self.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Oh, that's so interesting.
Speaker: I'm having like a revelation here.
Speaker: I think.
Speaker: Because that would be a very healthy way for one to look at and be like, this is...
Speaker: something I do well and not to be like, wow, I'm such a great this and that, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But just to be like, I am not of my own doing by God or by the circumstances he's led me into or, um,
Speaker: The contribution of other people or even just the ability to be in the place and time and to learn that he gave me because we couldn't even learn if God didn't build us with that capability.
Speaker: Yeah, so you're not like the Pharisee, like, I thank the O God that I'm not like this man and that, but...
Speaker: He did give you things and being truly thankful in the sense that it came outside of me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's like, I'm just a vessel.
Speaker: That's so neat.
Speaker: So artists, thank God for whatever, whatever he gave you.
Speaker: Because artists are great.
Speaker: Artists are skilled.
Speaker: Artists are amazingly talented.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And we don't need to downplay that.
Speaker: But we received it from God and we can own it that it's that it is in us and it is like
Speaker: ours not in a possession sense, but in the sense of like, this is part of who we are.
Speaker: And you have responsibility to do something with it.
Speaker: It's like in Exodus when God gave a special skill and artistry to those dudes to make the stuff for the tabernacle.
Speaker: I love that because it's like, ah, talking about the artist.
Speaker: The artist.
Speaker: You know, but it's like God gave it to him for a purpose.
Speaker: And so we should.
Speaker: And then they created something so beautiful that they wrote down the exact...
Speaker: like details of it to the point where you could probably recreate it because it was such a great work.
Speaker: Weren't those written down before they made it?
Speaker: Weren't those like the plans?
Speaker: Oh, wait, maybe I'm thinking about the temple.
Speaker: No, I'm getting my, I'm getting my God dwellings mixed up.
Speaker: The ones in Exodus are plans, but I think there's ones in either Samuel or Kings that is a description of what was made.
Speaker: I think it's Kings because I think it's after Solomon builds the temple.
Speaker: But there's a chapter or two that's just a description of the temple that was built.
Speaker: The pomegranates.
Speaker: And there's some wood from Lebanon.
Speaker: That's where all the good wood comes from, according to the Bible.
Speaker: The Lorax is standing on all these stumps in Lebanon.
Speaker: God took these from me.
Speaker: I speak for the trees.
Speaker: What kind of peeve did you got for telling everybody our wood was so great?
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: You can tell he's really mad because that didn't even rhyme.
Speaker: This is why I'm not the poet of the family.
Speaker: No, I didn't rhyme either.
Speaker: That's fine.
