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Gratitude for Christians and the Artistic Life
61 Plays1 year ago
In this episode I invite my friend Nate Knobloch back on to the podcast to chat with me about what gratitude means to us as Christians and as artists.
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Transcript
Introduction to Gratitude and Creativity
00:00:01
Speaker
Hey friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
00:00:03
Speaker
I'm John, the host, and today we're inviting back on my friend Nate Knobloch just for a special Thanksgiving episode.
00:00:09
Speaker
He had some thoughts about gratitude and such in the Christian life that we wanted to talk through.
00:00:14
Speaker
So we're going to talk about just that.
00:00:17
Speaker
What is that role in our life as Christians?
00:00:20
Speaker
What is the role of gratitude as artists?
00:00:22
Speaker
How can that help us with different things like our ego when we're
00:00:26
Speaker
We're feeling nervous about our art when we feel like we need to overwork ourselves.
00:00:31
Speaker
We have a really interesting discussion, just a lot of different things about how does that affect us as Christians and as artists.
00:00:38
Speaker
It's quite interesting.
00:00:40
Speaker
I really enjoyed the discussion.
00:00:42
Speaker
I'm excited to share it with you guys.
00:00:44
Speaker
So thanks for listening.
Creative Adaptations and Artistic Choices
00:00:47
Speaker
I found out that the Minecraft movie is apparently going to be directed, going to be, it's been directed now, by the guy who directed Napoleon Dynamite and Nacho the Great.
00:00:56
Speaker
Really?
00:00:57
Speaker
So now I'm much more intrigued by that movie.
00:00:59
Speaker
Did you see the second trailer for that?
00:01:00
Speaker
I did.
00:01:01
Speaker
That looked more legit.
00:01:02
Speaker
It did look more legit.
00:01:04
Speaker
And I saw behind the scene things that was like, oh, this isn't all green screen.
00:01:08
Speaker
They actually built sets for this.
00:01:09
Speaker
I know, that was shocking.
00:01:11
Speaker
I know.
00:01:12
Speaker
I'm very like... It looked like green screen the movie.
00:01:14
Speaker
It did.
00:01:16
Speaker
That one I've actually, even since the first trailer, I was kind of like, I know this looks like it's the worst thing ever.
00:01:24
Speaker
I wonder if that's intentional.
00:01:27
Speaker
How would it be intentional?
00:01:29
Speaker
Well, it's called a Minecraft movie.
00:01:32
Speaker
So that to me feels like the people creating it are aware that it's kind of weird to do a live action Minecraft movie.
00:01:40
Speaker
I saw an explanation for that.
00:01:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:42
Speaker
Is that the director or whatever said that...
00:01:46
Speaker
They're not trying to make the definitive Minecraft movie.
00:01:49
Speaker
Because Minecraft is so huge and you can have so many adventures there.
00:01:52
Speaker
This is just...
00:01:55
Speaker
Like, you can do it so many ways.
00:01:56
Speaker
This is just one thing.
00:01:58
Speaker
A Minecraft movie.
00:01:59
Speaker
But yeah, I don't know.
00:02:00
Speaker
It feels like it has more artistic something underneath it than the How to Train Your Dragon live action movie.
00:02:09
Speaker
Which is weird, because if you were to tell me, like, on page, I'd probably be like, I feel like the How to Train Your Dragon one would have more...
00:02:17
Speaker
At least the Minecraft one's original then, right?
00:02:20
Speaker
I guess.
00:02:21
Speaker
I don't know.
00:02:21
Speaker
I just feel like the people behind it are trying to do something interesting and creative with it.
00:02:27
Speaker
Whereas just seeing the same How to Train Your Dragon shots in live action that were just in animated...
00:02:34
Speaker
then it feels to me like you're not taking it and trying to do something with it.
00:02:37
Speaker
You're just copying it so that you can have a live action version.
00:02:41
Speaker
Right.
00:02:41
Speaker
Which is maybe not what they're doing.
00:02:43
Speaker
Those are iconic shots.
00:02:44
Speaker
But people do do that though.
00:02:46
Speaker
Because that's what the Lion King was, right?
00:02:48
Speaker
Right.
00:02:48
Speaker
It was.
00:02:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:49
Speaker
I just, I don't know.
00:02:50
Speaker
I'm skeptical.
00:02:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:54
Speaker
Anyways, maybe we'll jump into the middle of that.
00:02:59
Speaker
We're going to start by talking about how to train your dragon in Minecraft.
00:03:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:03
Speaker
That's the vibe.
00:03:04
Speaker
That's art.
00:03:05
Speaker
Well, they might be art.
00:03:09
Speaker
Could be bad art.
00:03:10
Speaker
Could be horrible art.
00:03:12
Speaker
Horrible commercial art, which a lot of the art that we revere now was horrible commercial art of its day.
Art, Commercialism, and Historical Influence
00:03:20
Speaker
I don't know if it was horrible, but I don't know.
00:03:21
Speaker
Like there was just commercialism and art was like a big thing.
00:03:25
Speaker
Like the Sistine Chapel was just a big giant paycheck for Michelangelo.
00:03:29
Speaker
It is disillusioning when you like go there.
00:03:32
Speaker
I've heard that you like look up and there's like, on one of the goblets there's like a Coke logo and it's like, come on, Michelangelo.
00:03:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:40
Speaker
Come on, Michelangelo.
00:03:44
Speaker
I totally believed you for like 0.5 seconds.
00:03:47
Speaker
I was like, somebody just went up there and slapped a Coke logo on there.
00:03:52
Speaker
What was the commercialism?
00:03:54
Speaker
Oh, I don't just like, well, I mean, religious art was like, that was what people would pay for was religious art.
00:04:00
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Okay.
00:04:01
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Okay.
00:04:01
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My mind was kind of like on sponsors.
00:04:04
Speaker
Oh, that's fair.
00:04:05
Speaker
Come to my booth where I sell thimbles.
00:04:09
Speaker
Well, there was that with gladiators.
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Speaker
Gladiators were sponsored.
00:04:12
Speaker
oh i forgot yeah how did that work i they would do ad reads from the coliseum i guess the gladiator movie the first one was gonna have that in it and then they were like this seems too fake even though it was real this does not seem like it works in the time even though they did this so it'd be like for olive oil or something so really yeah well athletes were crazy about olive oil because it was olive oil and it's tasty but also they would like
00:04:40
Speaker
rub themselves down with oil and stuff beforehand.
00:04:43
Speaker
That'd be slippery.
00:04:44
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Yeah.
00:04:46
Speaker
That way you can worm out of the lion's mouth.
Gratitude in Literature and Life's Wonder
00:04:50
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And then they'll be satisfied with the taste of olive oil and it'll be great.
00:04:53
Speaker
And they're like, oh, wait a second, he's gone.
00:04:55
Speaker
He's gone.
00:04:56
Speaker
Oh, dang it.
00:04:58
Speaker
No Christians for me today.
00:05:02
Speaker
The church sponsored by what's a famous olive oil brand Bertoli I don't know The church sponsored by Bertoli The church sponsored by Kirkland Kirkland now in support of church unity Through martyrdom Let's go So we have Thanksgiving coming up And I bumped the table I need to stop calling attention I'm tapping the table Hell yeah
00:05:31
Speaker
But so Thanksgiving is coming up and you were talking about this Chesterton essay, which you read me a little bit of.
00:05:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:37
Speaker
Prior to.
00:05:38
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So...
00:05:40
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Do you want to read just a little bit of that and then talk about what your thoughts were on that recently?
00:05:44
Speaker
When did you, when did you like read this?
00:05:46
Speaker
Was this super recent or was it like, I've kind of been like slowly working my way through his, um, orthodoxy book, which is like kind of his mere Christianity.
00:05:56
Speaker
Like this is what I think Christianity is.
00:06:00
Speaker
And this is how I got there sort of thing.
00:06:03
Speaker
Um,
00:06:03
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Which we know is Catholic, so it's heretic.
00:06:07
Speaker
No, it's not heretical.
00:06:08
Speaker
I think he wrote this before he was Catholic.
00:06:10
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:06:11
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Yeah.
00:06:11
Speaker
What did he start?
00:06:12
Speaker
Did he start out as something and then move Catholic?
00:06:14
Speaker
I think he was Anglican.
00:06:16
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Love it.
00:06:19
Speaker
As it should be.
00:06:25
Speaker
But then, yeah, so
Religious Transitions and Historical Context
00:06:27
Speaker
look out, though, because apparently moves Catholic.
00:06:29
Speaker
Oh, dang.
00:06:30
Speaker
To keep tapping, that was a problem.
00:06:33
Speaker
But one of them moved from Catholic to Anglican.
00:06:34
Speaker
I'm so confused.
00:06:37
Speaker
I don't really hear about that too much.
00:06:40
Speaker
From Catholic to Anglican?
00:06:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:43
Speaker
Or do you?
00:06:43
Speaker
That was how the Anglican Church started.
00:06:49
Speaker
Everyone in the Anglican Church movement Catholic.
00:06:55
Speaker
King Henry VIII is it specifically?
00:06:59
Speaker
It was him.
00:06:59
Speaker
And then a bunch of people were like, since the king kind of just protected us from the Catholic Church, we could just reform and not be murdered.
00:07:08
Speaker
And then the next queen was like, no, I'm going to murder you.
00:07:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:11
Speaker
No, there can be moves that way if you were like Catholic and then kind of reforming your theology, but still want to hold on to a lot of your Catholicism.
00:07:20
Speaker
Right.
00:07:20
Speaker
So I don't know a lot of personal people, but I know it happens.
00:07:23
Speaker
Frequently, but I also know it happens the other way where like yeah somebody raised like myself in a like Protestant church could get into that and then be like oh I actually like I'm even like a gateway drug is Anglicanism is a gateway drug either way
00:07:39
Speaker
Like, if you're Catholic, it's just ushering you onto Protestantism.
00:07:42
Speaker
If you're Protestant, it's just ushering you onto Catholicism.
00:07:45
Speaker
And some people stay there.
00:07:48
Speaker
They have to be very sticky to stay.
00:07:50
Speaker
It's very slippery right there.
00:07:52
Speaker
This is just such a horrible... Let's just... Every podcast, let's just do a reductive... Offend a different... Offend a different denomination.
00:07:58
Speaker
Let's just describe a denomination in a really reductive way.
00:08:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:02
Speaker
I've enjoyed Anglicanism through you.
00:08:07
Speaker
Like when I've gone to your church.
00:08:08
Speaker
No, yeah.
00:08:09
Speaker
No, I like, I just thought the phrasing was like, I appreciate that from a distance by just you.
00:08:16
Speaker
That's not what I meant.
00:08:17
Speaker
I enjoy marijuana through you.
00:08:22
Speaker
I like hearing your stories about it.
00:08:24
Speaker
It's an Anglicanism contact buzz.
00:08:26
Speaker
The elevated time.
00:08:28
Speaker
Is that, what's that?
00:08:29
Speaker
That's when like, if somebody's like smoking marijuana, but you like are in the vicinity, then you might get a contact buzz because you're, you're inhaling it, but you're not like huffing it.
00:08:42
Speaker
Okay.
00:08:42
Speaker
So only contact buzz I get is when somebody brings my phone.
00:08:47
Speaker
That's a contact buzz.
00:08:51
Speaker
That is the right contact buzz to get in my opinion.
Gratitude in Navigating Life's Struggles
00:08:55
Speaker
So Thanksgiving and Chesterton.
00:08:57
Speaker
Chesterton is all about gratitude.
00:09:01
Speaker
I feel like he's someone that highly values
00:09:09
Speaker
Wonder and he really associates you get to wonder through gratitude because Because the world was made by someone and it's like amazing that it was that's a bit what he talks about here that I wanted to yeah to look at is that
00:09:32
Speaker
is that like the world basically, things didn't have to be how they are.
00:09:37
Speaker
He doesn't believe in just like natural fatalism, this led to this, led to this.
00:09:41
Speaker
He thinks that's just like ridiculous.
00:09:45
Speaker
And if something is happening, then it didn't have to have happened.
00:09:50
Speaker
If someone made it happen, it didn't have to have happened that way.
00:09:54
Speaker
So he much more, he believes in magic more than just things happening over the natural course.
00:10:02
Speaker
Like he'd sooner say that like a sun rising was magic that God just chooses to do like over and over.
00:10:10
Speaker
And an example of,
00:10:13
Speaker
An example of that is he's in the middle of a chapter talking about that kind of thing.
00:10:18
Speaker
And.
00:10:20
Speaker
He says, if the miller's third son, this is in the middle of a little talk, said to the fairy, explain why I must not stand on my head in the fairy palace.
00:10:31
Speaker
The other might fairly reply, well, if it comes to that, explain the fairy palace.
00:10:38
Speaker
If Cinderella says, how is it that I must leave the ball at 12?
00:10:42
Speaker
Her godmother might answer, well, how is it that you are going there till 12?
00:10:49
Speaker
Because we can so easily be like, why is it this way?
00:10:52
Speaker
Why does the world have these unfair rules?
00:10:55
Speaker
He talks close to that about like, people can be like upset that I only, I want to have like a whole bunch of women, you know?
00:11:05
Speaker
And he's like, you should, it's the most, should take it as the most amazing, wonderful thing that you can have one woman.
00:11:13
Speaker
And to just that perspective of when you like wish that you had something, it's like,
00:11:18
Speaker
You should be amazed that you have anything at all.
00:11:22
Speaker
I feel like that is very applicable.
00:11:26
Speaker
I think it's applicable everywhere, but in the arts to narrow in as I like to do on that thing.
00:11:32
Speaker
Mildly obsessive.
00:11:35
Speaker
I feel like that is very important because I think artists go through a lot of different seasons that they don't choose or necessarily want in their art.
00:11:43
Speaker
Like if you're a writer, you might just not be able to write and be like, what the heck?
00:11:47
Speaker
I want to write.
00:11:48
Speaker
I want to put something on the page.
00:11:49
Speaker
And for some reason I can't.
00:11:50
Speaker
Or as an actor, there might be a particular thing that you really want to do.
00:11:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:56
Speaker
Or even as a director, you might be like, why is this the cast I'm stuck with?
00:12:00
Speaker
Like when I cast somebody as Jesus, I was like, what?
00:12:05
Speaker
But I have been, have I been, I think, well, okay.
00:12:13
Speaker
I've taught classes before.
00:12:14
Speaker
And when you teach classes, you have to cast everybody.
00:12:17
Speaker
So there are times when you cast everybody and you're just looking at a kid and you're like,
00:12:25
Speaker
You look like tree material.
00:12:29
Speaker
And sometimes it's like, well, they have to go here and it's not necessarily where I'd love to put them, but they just have to go here.
00:12:36
Speaker
And I think it can be, or like with an audience, I think every artist can relate to that where it's like you have an audience that watches your thing or reads your thing or looks at your thing and then just rips it to shreds or laughs where you don't want them to or reacts in a way that is not how my art should be perceived.
00:12:54
Speaker
Right, I deserve better.
00:12:56
Speaker
It deserves better.
00:12:57
Speaker
But then to quote Chesterton or not quote, play off of reference.
00:13:03
Speaker
How is it that you have an audience at all?
00:13:05
Speaker
Right.
00:13:05
Speaker
Right.
00:13:06
Speaker
Right.
00:13:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's interesting.
00:13:10
Speaker
Yesterday at church, my pastor had a sermon about gratitude.
00:13:16
Speaker
And he had that really helpful perspective.
00:13:19
Speaker
He brought up, I think it's from Psalms, where it said, God withholds no good thing from the righteous.
00:13:32
Speaker
And I think we all know that.
00:13:34
Speaker
There's things that we'd like to have that we don't have, but if we don't have them and we're living for God, that means that it wouldn't be good for us to have them.
00:13:43
Speaker
Like it wouldn't be good for us to have that extra money or that house.
00:13:47
Speaker
And he even brought it into like hard things in our life.
00:13:52
Speaker
Like maybe it wouldn't be good for us to...
00:13:56
Speaker
To not have this struggle, to like not have like, like he even brought up like, like you wish that you could be more attracted to the opposite sex.
00:14:06
Speaker
And apparently God doesn't think that'd be good, at least right now, if you did, because...
00:14:12
Speaker
He works all things together for good.
00:14:14
Speaker
And so much the struggle is what brings to that ultimate good.
00:14:19
Speaker
And the things that we think are good can really bring our, be our downfall.
00:14:22
Speaker
Well, and I think of some of the most formative things for me as a person and artist have come from the struggles that God allowed to have happen.
00:14:31
Speaker
Um, and so I think a lot of times
Struggles as Guidance and Growth
00:14:36
Speaker
we jump the gun on like what we think we need.
00:14:41
Speaker
Um, um,
00:14:42
Speaker
In every stage of life as an artist or as a Christian or as a member of a family or a member of the church, you kind of jump the gun and are like, this is what I need.
00:14:54
Speaker
But really, that hard thing you're going through...
00:14:57
Speaker
might really be something that makes you a better person or maybe a person you will enjoy all the more.
00:15:03
Speaker
And like, I used to say this quite a lot.
00:15:06
Speaker
I don't now because now I have friends that I said this when I was introducing myself to the friends that I now have.
00:15:12
Speaker
But like, I would like this was not the first thing I said.
00:15:16
Speaker
This was not how I introduced myself to people.
00:15:20
Speaker
It was in my series of introductory conversations.
00:15:23
Speaker
But I would look back at my parents were divorced when I was quite young.
00:15:28
Speaker
And that was not my favorite thing.
00:15:30
Speaker
Sure.
00:15:32
Speaker
But give it a few years and I would look back and be like, you know, I don't know that I would change that because I wonder if without that, if I would be where I am now.
00:15:43
Speaker
I don't.
00:15:45
Speaker
I really am skeptical that I would be where I am artistically right now.
00:15:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:53
Speaker
If I...
00:15:54
Speaker
didn't end up having time alone at home because that was just what our family had to do.
00:15:59
Speaker
And then I shirked all my school responsibilities and watched the like behind the scenes of movies and that like lit the fire in me for art.
00:16:06
Speaker
Right.
00:16:06
Speaker
That now has us here.
00:16:08
Speaker
You know, I think we can all look back on things and be like,
00:16:12
Speaker
See that the path made sense and brought us there.
00:16:16
Speaker
It's a quote my priest loves.
00:16:18
Speaker
It's from J. Bird Crow by Wendell Berry, which I have not read, but I want to read.
00:16:25
Speaker
But it's just about a dude.
00:16:27
Speaker
He's a barber in a small town.
00:16:29
Speaker
I don't remember what time period.
00:16:30
Speaker
But...
00:16:34
Speaker
you get to it's all about like God's leading in life and near the end of the book.
00:16:42
Speaker
he has this line that I think I'm going to butcher the quote of, but he's like, as I look back over my life, I cannot escape the feeling that I have been led.
00:16:53
Speaker
Like he's been like through this whole time, I've never known where I've been going.
00:16:57
Speaker
But then when I look back through the entire life that has just been lived in this book, I cannot escape this feeling that I have been led by something to where I am.
00:17:06
Speaker
And I just think that's such a rich, true thing.
00:17:10
Speaker
That may be one of the reasons Horse and His Boy is, I think, my favorite.
00:17:13
Speaker
Oh, I love Horse and His Boy.
00:17:16
Speaker
Horse and His Boy is my favorite Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe book.
00:17:20
Speaker
There's Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and Horse and His Boy.
00:17:22
Speaker
And Horse and His Boy is the better.
00:17:25
Speaker
It's the better Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
00:17:27
Speaker
Get rid of Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
00:17:28
Speaker
They should call it the Horse and His Boy's wardrobe.
00:17:32
Speaker
Horse and His Boy and His Wardrobe.
00:17:35
Speaker
They just really need to slap a wardrobe in Horse and His Boy.
00:17:38
Speaker
They're missing that iconic image.
00:17:41
Speaker
The audience won't buy tickets if they're not seeing that wardrobe.
00:17:43
Speaker
Where's the good word carving in this book?
00:17:45
Speaker
I came to this children's story for some intricate craftsmanship that leads me to a magical world.
00:17:51
Speaker
And all I've got is the magical world.
00:17:53
Speaker
Where's the intricate craftsmanship?
00:17:55
Speaker
That's what Tolkien said.
00:17:57
Speaker
Tolkien never gave that guy a break.
00:18:01
Speaker
First he's Anglican, then he puts Santa Claus in his fantasy world.
00:18:06
Speaker
But that is like the message of the horse and his boy, how like Shasta's
00:18:10
Speaker
as this terrible life as a orphan and these things keep on happening.
00:18:15
Speaker
And he says like, and we keep running into these lions.
00:18:18
Speaker
Like most people don't even encounter one lion in their life.
00:18:21
Speaker
And we keep encountering them at like every corner.
00:18:24
Speaker
And then he's talking to Aslan and he's like, I was that lion.
00:18:30
Speaker
And I was doing these things for you when it was seeming scary and dangerous.
00:18:35
Speaker
That was me doing these things to protect you.
00:18:39
Speaker
That's one of my favorite passages.
00:18:41
Speaker
It might be my favorite passage in all of Narnia.
00:18:44
Speaker
Maybe not in all of Lewis's stuff, but definitely in all of Narnia.
00:18:49
Speaker
I think that is at least top five.
00:18:51
Speaker
I love that.
00:18:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:52
Speaker
It makes me think of Job, too, which Job is even more mysterious in its ending.
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:58
Speaker
Where you don't even get an answer.
00:19:00
Speaker
Although I heard, I can't remember what this take was from, but I thought it was interesting because I at least have read Job often as
00:19:07
Speaker
god just saying you don't need to know the answer i think that is partly true but i think there was a i think i just saw it on instagram so i have no idea where it was but it was somebody on a podcast was like also the point that god is making is that he's there because god does show up to be with job and answer job his answer is just i am god but also the answer is god's present um
00:19:35
Speaker
But also there's no why.
00:19:37
Speaker
It's an answer that avoids the question.
00:19:40
Speaker
Right.
00:19:41
Speaker
Here's the more important.
00:19:43
Speaker
That kind of comes back to the Chesterton of, well, why should you have a God who's with you and paying attention to you instead of why are these bad things happening to me?
00:19:55
Speaker
Right.
00:19:57
Speaker
A lot can be said about just what are we putting our attention on.
Therapeutic Effects of Gratitude
00:20:02
Speaker
One of the tools Shay had been given in therapy in dealing with like depression and mental health things is creating a gratitude list.
00:20:11
Speaker
And that's a frequent thing therapists will give people who are struggling with depression of
00:20:16
Speaker
Like, hey, yeah, maybe you have a chemical imbalance and you can't fix all these things.
00:20:20
Speaker
But in the moment, a tool you can use to fight that is just be like, OK, I'm just going to focus on what are things I'm thankful about right now and just help me get through this moment by just being like, this thing is good and this is good and this is good.
00:20:33
Speaker
So then when our perspective is on God, which is the ultimate good thing, that's dope.
00:20:38
Speaker
That gets us through a lot.
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:40
Speaker
You know, not all.
00:20:41
Speaker
I mean, it's I don't think it's a cure all because obviously.
00:20:45
Speaker
you can be looking at God and then like the Psalmist be like, but where are you?
00:20:48
Speaker
You know?
00:20:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:49
Speaker
And even Jesus had those moments himself and he wasn't sinning in those moments.
00:20:56
Speaker
But I've heard it said that there's like technically no difference between thinking about yourself and suffering.
00:21:12
Speaker
And isn't that true in your experience when you're like self-conscious about yourself and like evaluating how am I feeling?
00:21:18
Speaker
How are other people viewing me?
00:21:20
Speaker
How am I doing in this situation?
00:21:23
Speaker
It's not fun.
00:21:25
Speaker
And I sometimes think, well, if I'm not thinking about the moment, then I'm not enjoying the moment, but it's like...
00:21:32
Speaker
That's not true.
00:21:33
Speaker
I enjoy things all the time without having to think about it.
00:21:36
Speaker
And then the moment I start thinking about it, it's like, there goes the joy.
00:21:40
Speaker
Yeah, that was a weird.
00:21:44
Speaker
No, I think that that really resonates.
00:21:50
Speaker
I often struggle with that because I'm like, I feel like you have to be, which maybe is just, I don't know, the world talking or something.
00:21:56
Speaker
But I feel like we are often like we have to be looking at the negative thing.
00:22:01
Speaker
so that we can evaluate it, so we can be aware of it.
00:22:05
Speaker
For myself, this comes out in like, if I want to live a holy life, I should constantly be examining myself and my pitfalls.
00:22:12
Speaker
But recently, in like the last couple of years, I feel like God has led me more to be like, I'm actually perfectly capable, John, of taking care of your holiness.
00:22:22
Speaker
Man.
00:22:23
Speaker
I'm like, what?
00:22:24
Speaker
He's like, if you just kind of, it's, I don't know if I have time to get into like a big theological thing.
00:22:31
Speaker
It's Romans 6 through 9, but there's the whole talk of dying to sin and you are a new man.
00:22:41
Speaker
And when you're living and focusing on the flesh and thinking about the flesh and living as one in the world, then that's not good.
00:22:49
Speaker
But we're rather to live as those...
00:22:52
Speaker
redeemed by christ and just trust the mystery of that and focus on that and that doesn't mean just ignore your sin and go on sinning right as paul would say by no means exclamation point he loves paul would text in all caps and use a lot of emojis like steaming from the ears
00:23:18
Speaker
Either that or like the smiley face with the hearts around it.
00:23:20
Speaker
Like that's for Philippians.
00:23:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:24
Speaker
Oh man, that's... I can so resonate with it.
00:23:26
Speaker
I feel like that's been kind of the struggle of my life.
00:23:30
Speaker
But I've been... Being married and having a wife has helped me focus on the falsehood of...
00:23:37
Speaker
That's great.
00:23:38
Speaker
That's great to have an outside view.
00:23:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:40
Speaker
Which the church can serve as well, I think, if you're like, yeah, like, I don't think that exclusively has to come from the marriage.
00:23:45
Speaker
No, but no.
00:23:47
Speaker
But the idea of you don't need to be concentrating on yourself and what you do in order to be good.
00:23:58
Speaker
And that takes faith in God to do the work.
00:24:01
Speaker
Because I was like, it makes no sense to me.
00:24:04
Speaker
How can I be good without me trying to be good?
00:24:07
Speaker
And when I'm trying, I'm being self-conscious.
00:24:09
Speaker
And when I'm... It's like acting.
00:24:12
Speaker
I know.
00:24:16
Speaker
We've come full circle back to art.
00:24:19
Speaker
Yeah, no, I talk about that a lot that time in Godspell because it fed right into this and probably haven't talked about it on the podcast, though, because we had that moment in rehearsal for Godspell where it was Jesus in the agony in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Authenticity in Art and Faith
00:24:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:49
Speaker
And I remember I really like put myself into it.
00:24:53
Speaker
I was like, ah, this is good acting here.
00:24:57
Speaker
And I was a little disappointed when you wanted to keep me after class and try it again.
00:25:02
Speaker
You could all go.
00:25:05
Speaker
I'll see you up at my desk.
00:25:07
Speaker
John, you can compliment me in front of everyone.
00:25:09
Speaker
It's fine.
00:25:11
Speaker
I know I did great.
00:25:13
Speaker
But it was very humbling and good because what you had me do is just say the lines like I was talking, like me.
00:25:22
Speaker
Just like you had me like, say what I had for breakfast and then say the lines like I was saying what I had for breakfast.
00:25:27
Speaker
Which is something I stole.
00:25:30
Speaker
Unashamedly.
00:25:31
Speaker
That's okay.
00:25:33
Speaker
And it was one of those disappointing and relieving things that
00:25:39
Speaker
In that, oh, I'm better when I'm not trying because I want my trying and my acting to be really good because I put myself into it in my effort.
00:25:48
Speaker
I want it to be good.
00:25:50
Speaker
But you were teaching me that it's better if you just act natural and be yourself.
00:25:55
Speaker
And that's like, that doesn't seem like it could be true.
00:25:58
Speaker
There's no way that me, myself, am good enough.
00:26:02
Speaker
But...
00:26:04
Speaker
But, you know, God, this just teaches how like God made us to be the us that he made us.
00:26:11
Speaker
And we're not perfect.
00:26:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:13
Speaker
But the usness that he put into us that he loves, he put that there for a reason.
00:26:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:19
Speaker
No, I love that.
00:26:20
Speaker
I love the phrase, the disappointing relief.
00:26:24
Speaker
That's a relief.
00:26:26
Speaker
I feel like that resonates with many, many things where it's like, this is disappointing and it's not what I want, but actually there's some weird piece that I find in this.
00:26:38
Speaker
Switchfoot called it the beautiful letdown.
00:26:42
Speaker
Cause like I vibe with that as an actor, there's definitely been times where it's like, John, you're not, you're just not acting enough.
00:26:47
Speaker
And I'm like, Oh shit, you're right.
00:26:49
Speaker
Um,
00:26:50
Speaker
But I've definitely had times where it's just like, John, you just need, I think for me, probably in singing most often, I've frequently gotten the, John, you're just singing too hard.
00:27:03
Speaker
You know, you just need to let it be.
00:27:05
Speaker
And John, your voice sounds nice, which I don't think is true, but some people do for some reason.
00:27:11
Speaker
But then it's like that is terrifying for me.
00:27:14
Speaker
I'm very self-conscious about my voice.
00:27:16
Speaker
So when somebody is like, John, just your voice, just letting it be and just kind of trusting it, that's just good enough.
00:27:23
Speaker
It's like, oh, but man, I have all this like technique and cool things that I want to do to make it actually sound good.
00:27:29
Speaker
Right.
00:27:30
Speaker
But then also, so it's like, oh, man, I don't get to do that.
00:27:34
Speaker
But also then it's somebody just being like, that's enough.
00:27:40
Speaker
which for a Christian is God is enough, you know, and God in us is enough.
00:27:48
Speaker
So we don't have to.
00:27:49
Speaker
Him valuing you.
00:27:52
Speaker
And him sanctifying you.
00:27:53
Speaker
Like he'll get you there.
00:27:55
Speaker
And I think that's part of our role as the church, which maps to artists as well, right?
00:27:59
Speaker
Like if you're doing a collaborative art, you want to keep each other accountable.
00:28:03
Speaker
You want to make it better.
00:28:05
Speaker
Right.
00:28:05
Speaker
So as the church, um,
00:28:08
Speaker
Like if I'm going through life and like mostly trying to focus on God, but then this giant sin issue comes up that for some reason I'm not noticing.
00:28:19
Speaker
Hopefully the rest of the church can be like, hey, John, you've got this giant sin wart on your back and you need to take care of that.
00:28:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:28
Speaker
Which is scary to do.
00:28:31
Speaker
But again, there's like a disappointing relief in that.
00:28:34
Speaker
Isn't it interesting...
00:28:37
Speaker
that we would rather our efforts be good than our essentialness be good.
00:28:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:44
Speaker
We want to earn it.
00:28:46
Speaker
Well, we want to be God.
00:28:47
Speaker
It's like that same essential fall.
00:28:51
Speaker
We want to be like able to achieve the thing and we just can't, but just the way we are is pretty nice.
00:29:00
Speaker
Right.
00:29:00
Speaker
And so what's that part of us that wants to achieve it?
00:29:04
Speaker
What's behind that?
00:29:05
Speaker
Oh, there's probably a lot of different things for different people.
00:29:08
Speaker
What is it for you?
00:29:10
Speaker
Well, I think it comes down to pride, right?
00:29:13
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:29:14
Speaker
I think it could be pride.
00:29:15
Speaker
I think it could also be fear or anxiety.
00:29:19
Speaker
For sure.
00:29:19
Speaker
For sure.
00:29:20
Speaker
Because you don't believe that the eunice by itself is enough.
00:29:26
Speaker
Right.
00:29:26
Speaker
And there comes a not trusting in God to do the work and that he made something good.
00:29:34
Speaker
Right.
00:29:35
Speaker
Or like trusting in others.
00:29:36
Speaker
So it's like, well, I have to because I'm the one who can.
00:29:41
Speaker
It's probably...
00:29:44
Speaker
different for everybody depending on like upbringing and temperament for me definitely i think pride is part of that like anytime i'm playing a role i'm like
00:29:52
Speaker
don't need it to be better than anybody else, but I want it to be super unique.
00:29:56
Speaker
And I want to make it unique.
00:29:58
Speaker
Whereas it will just be unique by me playing the role in a very simple way.
00:30:03
Speaker
But I'm always like, oh, I got it.
00:30:04
Speaker
What's the John spin on this?
00:30:06
Speaker
And the John spin on it is that it's John.
00:30:09
Speaker
But I want to be remembered as having done something cool and unique.
00:30:14
Speaker
Whereas for other people, which I have some of this too, it could be like, I'm terrified that I'm not good enough for this.
00:30:22
Speaker
right and so I have to I have to prove and earn it which again I think could be connected to pride in some sense kind of in Lewis's description of like it's it's like self-focus yep I was just thinking of when Lewis talked about how a lot of our good attributes are just because of our good digestion it's what he calls it is basically it's just something inbuilt in you that maybe you're not tempted in a certain way but you didn't
00:30:50
Speaker
that's not because of you.
00:30:51
Speaker
You just weren't built to be tempted in this way.
00:30:54
Speaker
And so it's kind of like not so fun if that we can't take credit for our digestion.
00:31:00
Speaker
Yep.
00:31:02
Speaker
And so it just brings it back to not taking credit.
Balancing Self-Worth and Humility
00:31:08
Speaker
Which sucks as people.
00:31:10
Speaker
I feel like we will.
00:31:11
Speaker
And as artists, because I feel like the ego for an artist is such a tricky, tricky thing to master.
00:31:21
Speaker
To some extent, I think the things that can be that can lead to an ego are not necessarily bad advocating for your art, knowing the worth of your art, you know, being able to create something and be like, this was good, or this was great.
00:31:36
Speaker
Like, I know this can stand up to here, especially because a lot of times you might be the person who has to fight for your art, you know?
00:31:43
Speaker
A lot of those things can be good, but then that can turn into this terrible egotistical monster or inferiority complex monster, the other side of that coin, which I feel like comes from that same thing.
00:31:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:58
Speaker
but then the lie is that we'll be happier if we get what we want, we get the credit.
00:32:04
Speaker
But we were just talking about how Hollywood actors are the happiest people on earth because they have.
00:32:09
Speaker
Right.
00:32:10
Speaker
But that the focus on the self, have you had it when you have like achieved something good and people have lauded you for it.
00:32:18
Speaker
And it's like, that's what I wanted.
00:32:21
Speaker
And it feels pretty empty.
00:32:24
Speaker
I have, I'm trying to think about when I have, well,
00:32:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:29
Speaker
It doesn't satisfy.
00:32:31
Speaker
You just need another hit in another minute.
00:32:33
Speaker
I know.
00:32:33
Speaker
Like, well, I've played, I've done kind of a lot of my artistic dream projects, you know?
00:32:40
Speaker
I've now played Quasimodo and Hamlet, which are two pretty dope things to have on a resume.
00:32:44
Speaker
For sure.
00:32:46
Speaker
And were two of my dream roles, like probably my top two.
00:32:49
Speaker
Wow.
00:32:50
Speaker
I know.
00:32:51
Speaker
I'm so blessed in that.
00:32:53
Speaker
I'm so blessed.
00:32:54
Speaker
And at your young age, too.
00:32:56
Speaker
I know.
00:32:56
Speaker
It's crazy.
00:32:57
Speaker
I don't.
00:32:58
Speaker
Yeah, it floors me.
00:32:59
Speaker
It honestly does.
00:33:00
Speaker
And then getting to do God's belt.
00:33:02
Speaker
Like, those are three things that like, wow, amazing.
00:33:05
Speaker
Now it's like, well, we're in all the things now.
00:33:08
Speaker
I better hear some things I want you to do, John.
00:33:11
Speaker
But it was like, God's like, now that we got those out of the way.
00:33:16
Speaker
Fine, John, I'll let you get it out of your system.
00:33:19
Speaker
Now go do missions in Ruana.
00:33:20
Speaker
I don't know.
Facing Self-Doubt and Personal Growth
00:33:23
Speaker
But like I don't feel all the better as an artist for that like really no like I still I'm
00:33:36
Speaker
trying to talk about a thing that I don't know if I can talk about yet.
00:33:39
Speaker
And meeting with some artists that I respect quite regularly about a thing.
00:33:45
Speaker
That is my passion project.
00:33:46
Speaker
Well, maybe not my passion project.
00:33:47
Speaker
It was kind of my idea.
00:33:50
Speaker
And I'm very happy to turn it, kind of involve these group of people and kind of let them take it.
00:33:57
Speaker
But even in that, I often...
00:34:01
Speaker
even though I've done a whole successful show and I've directed several shows and taught a class and played several roles.
00:34:08
Speaker
So it's like, wow, I'm just not good enough.
00:34:10
Speaker
I'm not as good as these people.
00:34:11
Speaker
I probably seem stupid here.
00:34:13
Speaker
You know, like it hasn't been fixed.
00:34:15
Speaker
Hasn't been fixed.
00:34:16
Speaker
And probably won't ever be fixed until eternity.
00:34:21
Speaker
But maybe, maybe I'll fix it.
00:34:23
Speaker
Where God's going to keep sanctifying you throughout life.
00:34:26
Speaker
So it's going to get better.
00:34:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:28
Speaker
That's why I don't quite buy into complete sanctification.
00:34:35
Speaker
Because I'm like, we just keep getting sanctified.
00:34:38
Speaker
Maybe you get like ultra sanctified, but not completely sanctified.
00:34:44
Speaker
So, well, that's lovely.
00:34:47
Speaker
And I, I feel like,
00:34:51
Speaker
Again, with all of this, I think it just comes back to like focusing in on God and being grateful for what has he given you.
00:34:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:59
Speaker
Even grateful for what has he given you in yourself, which that's an interesting thought because I feel like that could be, at least for young John growing up in the church, I feel like the idea of being like, what are things...
00:35:15
Speaker
Of my personality or myself that I'm thankful for.
00:35:19
Speaker
But even that's a good thing to be thankful for because God built you with that.
00:35:24
Speaker
If we're not thankful for him, we'll just be proud of it for our own self.
00:35:28
Speaker
Right.
00:35:29
Speaker
Oh, that's so interesting.
00:35:32
Speaker
I'm having like a revelation here.
00:35:34
Speaker
I think.
00:35:36
Speaker
Because that would be a very healthy way for one to look at and be like, this is...
00:35:41
Speaker
something I do well and not to be like, wow, I'm such a great this and that, you know?
00:35:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:48
Speaker
But just to be like, I am not of my own doing by God or by the circumstances he's led me into or, um,
00:36:00
Speaker
The contribution of other people or even just the ability to be in the place and time and to learn that he gave me because we couldn't even learn if God didn't build us with that capability.
00:36:13
Speaker
Yeah, so you're not like the Pharisee, like, I thank the O God that I'm not like this man and that, but...
00:36:21
Speaker
He did give you things and being truly thankful in the sense that it came outside of me.
00:36:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:29
Speaker
And it's like, I'm just a vessel.
00:36:32
Speaker
That's so neat.
00:36:33
Speaker
So artists, thank God for whatever, whatever he gave you.
00:36:39
Speaker
Because artists are great.
00:36:41
Speaker
Artists are skilled.
00:36:42
Speaker
Artists are amazingly talented.
00:36:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:45
Speaker
And we don't need to downplay that.
00:36:47
Speaker
But we received it from God and we can own it that it's that it is in us and it is like
00:36:54
Speaker
ours not in a possession sense, but in the sense of like, this is part of who we are.
00:36:58
Speaker
And you have responsibility to do something with it.
00:37:01
Speaker
It's like in Exodus when God gave a special skill and artistry to those dudes to make the stuff for the tabernacle.
00:37:10
Speaker
I love that because it's like, ah, talking about the artist.
00:37:12
Speaker
The artist.
00:37:13
Speaker
You know, but it's like God gave it to him for a purpose.
00:37:16
Speaker
And so we should.
00:37:17
Speaker
And then they created something so beautiful that they wrote down the exact...
00:37:21
Speaker
like details of it to the point where you could probably recreate it because it was such a great work.
00:37:27
Speaker
Weren't those written down before they made it?
00:37:29
Speaker
Weren't those like the plans?
00:37:31
Speaker
Oh, wait, maybe I'm thinking about the temple.
00:37:32
Speaker
No, I'm getting my, I'm getting my God dwellings mixed up.
00:37:36
Speaker
The ones in Exodus are plans, but I think there's ones in either Samuel or Kings that is a description of what was made.
00:37:45
Speaker
I think it's Kings because I think it's after Solomon builds the temple.
00:37:48
Speaker
But there's a chapter or two that's just a description of the temple that was built.
00:37:52
Speaker
The pomegranates.
00:37:54
Speaker
And there's some wood from Lebanon.
00:37:58
Speaker
That's where all the good wood comes from, according to the Bible.
00:38:03
Speaker
The Lorax is standing on all these stumps in Lebanon.
00:38:08
Speaker
God took these from me.
00:38:11
Speaker
I speak for the trees.
00:38:14
Speaker
What kind of peeve did you got for telling everybody our wood was so great?
00:38:23
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:38:23
Speaker
You can tell he's really mad because that didn't even rhyme.
00:38:27
Speaker
This is why I'm not the poet of the family.
00:38:30
Speaker
No, I didn't rhyme either.
00:38:33
Speaker
That's fine.