Transcript
Speaker: Hey friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John, the host.
Speaker: Today, Nate and I are joined by Alexis DeWeese.
Speaker: Alexis is a senior marketing manager at Zondervan, and she has an M.L.I.T.
Speaker: in theology, imagination, and the arts from the University of St.
Speaker: Andrews.
Speaker: Alexis chats with us about what it means to be an artist and a Christian in the digital age.
Speaker: How do you navigate that space well?
Speaker: How do you engage with a medium that's constantly trying to pull you in a dehumanizing direction without losing your humanity?
Speaker: It's a really great conversation that Nate and I loved having.
Speaker: It's really wonderful.
Speaker: Can't wait to share it with you guys.
Speaker: First wanted to give a quick update on the podcast as well.
Speaker: We're going to move to monthly episodes just for the next couple of months.
Speaker: We're getting close to the arrival of my child, which I'm very excited about.
Speaker: But with that in mind and trying to keep a good balance for Nate and mine's plates, we're just going to shift to monthly episodes.
Speaker: Should be back to bi-weekly by the end of the summer for sure.
Speaker: Just try not to overload Nate and I in this busy season.
Speaker: Thank you guys so much for listening, for tuning in every episode.
Speaker: It's a blessing to get to have these conversations and then to have some people to share them with who enjoy them every time we put one out.
Speaker: I am so grateful that these are a benefit or a joy or something to you.
Speaker: There's some reason you keep coming back, but I'm incredibly blessed and grateful.
Speaker: And I am so appreciative of all of you.
Speaker: I thank you so much for listening.
Speaker: Yeah, I can't wait to share this episode with you.
Speaker: Just a lot of really rich, great thoughts, thoughts from Alexis in this episode.
Speaker: It was, it was great for me.
Speaker: I'm still chewing on a lot of the stuff that we talked about.
Speaker: So without any further ado, Alexis Deweese.
Speaker: Thank you for coming on.
Speaker: I've been wanting to have you on the podcast for a while actually, and it was just the right timing.
Speaker: So I'm really excited to chat with you.
Speaker: First, would you be willing to share with us and with our audience a little bit just of your background as an artist and as a believer?
Speaker: So I was trying to think through like a succinct way through this.
Speaker: So I've always been a storyteller.
Speaker: Like imaginative play was always like very melodramatic.
Speaker: twists and turns and like you know barbies and soap opera context kind of thing um and around the point that i was um 13 i kind of made the shift from like imaginative play to like suddenly paper where it was like suddenly my friends aren't like participating in this but like i just remember like laying awake at night like terrified that like my imagination would go away so like just like bargaining with god oh man um
Speaker: Very existential.
Speaker: And yes, God, God was gracious as he is want to be.
Speaker: Good job, God.
Speaker: You just have to sacrifice a goat every year.
Speaker: It's worth it.
Speaker: Yes, it's coming up.
Speaker: I'm due in June.
Speaker: And so, so paper became, you know, where that play would happen.
Speaker: I've always been a reader.
Speaker: And so suddenly like novels was kind of where I was playing.
Speaker: And they were terrible, but they were happening.
Speaker: And so that was what I would do with a lot of my time.
Speaker: But I was also very cognizant of kind of the quality gap between art and media that was created out of a Christian context.
Speaker: And that wasn't and still could be made by believing individuals, but it wasn't on this like proselytizing path that made it so...
Speaker: We will say the same thing together at the same time a lot.
Speaker: The chemistry is just the same thing.
Speaker: We just love deep, rich things that we agree with or that are intriguing.
Speaker: There you go.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So yeah, there's like that was kind of that's where like as an artist like I started just like embracing like, okay, this is this is something that I really love.
Speaker: This is something that I really, you know, I Howard Thurman talks about like, wait, like the calling that you're you're meant to have being like what makes you come alive.
Speaker: Yes, people that are alive.
Speaker: And so this was just kind of that thing that it was kind of like there's there's something here.
Speaker: that really just resonates deeply with my soul.
Speaker: And so like as an artist, that was a piece, but like as I've become an adult or am in the process of that, I don't think anyone arrives.
Speaker: But was like, you know, just navigated through some spiritual abuse experiences.
Speaker: And, you know, so that's kind of started me on this trajectory of
Speaker: um theological exploration yeah for myself so like if i was putting a label on it i would like put myself at the camp of like anglo-catholic mysticism is kind of where you know i i make my home these days um and you know started pursuing theological study in a long roundabout way i ended up in
Speaker: Scotland at the University of St.
Speaker: Andrews at the Institute for Theology, Imagination, and the Arts.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: That's a cool name.
Speaker: Oh, man.
Speaker: It's such a cool, it's such a cool, because there's not a lot of seminary programs that fully embrace the study of theology and art.
Speaker: Like, this is a whole wing for listeners that don't know.
Speaker: I don't know why I'm making eye contact with them.
Speaker: It needs to know.
Speaker: But for anybody who doesn't know, this is actually a formal theological arm.
Speaker: This is a whole branch of study.
Speaker: So there's a few divinity schools that have them.
Speaker: There's one at Duke.
Speaker: There's one in London.
Speaker: And then one in St.
Speaker: Andrews.
Speaker: And there's others cropping up.
Speaker: It's a growing...
Speaker: It's a growing thing where theologians just kind of have this as a pet project.
Speaker: And then we're like, oh, yeah, we should also train people to do this.
Speaker: So yeah, I found myself there kind of in tandem with my work in the publishing industry, kind of looking at that intersection of creative work and how
Speaker: public thinkers and creatives like engage the the digital world that they're kind of pressured to share work in or promote work in like how do you how do you navigate those tensions um and that was that was kind of the the like point of my um my research was just kind of leaning into that trying to think through like what is what is it to have um
Speaker: you know, an ethic as a creative person in the digital realm.
Speaker: So yeah, that's where a lot of my writing now kind of focuses.
Speaker: I mean, there's still definitely dabbling with like fiction and creative stuff, but like at this season of my life, that's been sort of more of the like the nonfiction ethics, essays, rants, what have you.
Speaker: Does that, this is a slightly off topic question, but do you feel like that
Speaker: fulfills a similar part of like that calling that you're talking about because it feels like sometimes there can be an interesting intersection between one's artistic side and intellectual side.
Speaker: Do you feel like in working in largely sort of a nonfiction essayist
Speaker: world that you get some like artistic fulfillment from that or literary fulfillment?
Speaker: I mean, that's a great, it's like, that's, it feels like it's an ever evolving answer.
Speaker: Like, I feel like it's a different sort of creative fulfillment.
Speaker: There's not going to be that moment.
Speaker: Like for anyone who does write fiction, there is just kind of this like really, I think,
Speaker: ultimately like kind of sacred moment where like you are writing something and you're like, oh, I need to solve this problem.
Speaker: Like what I thought was going to happen.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: They're doing their own thing.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And suddenly like as you just kind of like allow that to happen.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: you just kind of realize like, oh, wait, there has been like all these things that have like lined up to get us to that point.
Speaker: I feel like this is what so many fiction artists are chasing.
Speaker: And it's very different than that.
Speaker: But there is still this like,
Speaker: I think like there's a devotional artist that I don't know if you're familiar with Scott Erickson he has some really fantastic both kind of like Vizio Divina like work out there Scott the painter on Instagram do you know Vizio Divina
Speaker: No.
Speaker: You would love Vizio Divina.
Speaker: What's that word?
Speaker: Would you explain Vizio Divina?
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: We're just taking a left turn here.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So Vizio Divina, do you know about Lectio Divina?
Speaker: Let's start thinking.
Speaker: Do I know about Lectio Divina?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So to understand the one, we're going to understand the one.
Speaker: So Lectio Divina.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: We're going to read a small passage of scripture.
Speaker: We're going to each read it.
Speaker: Like one of us is going to read it aloud and we're all just going to kind of sit and think on that for a minute.
Speaker: We're going to read it a second time for some familiarity.
Speaker: And, you know, and then we might read it silently together once again.
Speaker: And then we're going to start talking through what we're picking up from it.
Speaker: So what out of the word is.
Speaker: is being divined.
Speaker: So Lectio Divina.
Speaker: So similarly, Visio Divina is looking at- Visual.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And so you're not, the Bible isn't visual.
Speaker: And so really what you're doing with that- Very few pictures, a few maps.
Speaker: depending on your ambition.
Speaker: God ordained maps.
Speaker: God made those maps.
Speaker: Yes, yes.
Speaker: I work for a publishing company that does a lot of Bible resources, and we just released an atlas that I can promise you was not.
Speaker: God just gave us either, right?
Speaker: It was not divinely put together, but we're thankful for it nonetheless.
Speaker: Oh, yes.
Speaker: We're gonna pretend that there was like a creedal council for the maps in my office.
Speaker: Before any of this place.
Speaker: Yes, we think this is what the outer wall looked like in Jerusalem.
Speaker: We're gonna pray about it and make it so.
Speaker: So yeah, so Visio Divina is not that, though I guess you could do that.
Speaker: I just don't think it'd be the most fruitful.
Speaker: So what you're doing is like essentially it's mostly art that has either it's a visual...
Speaker: Figuring of an abstract theological concept.
Speaker: It could be looking at, you know, sacred artwork, stained glass paintings, sculpture, what have you.
Speaker: And kind of looking through, like looking at the passage that goes along with it, looking at the artwork itself and just kind of sitting with and dwelling with like what is being communicated.
Speaker: to me in this?
Speaker: What do I think is true of God in this?
Speaker: Or like what, where, where it's just, it's, I mean, both of these practices is in a sense to give, give one
Speaker: a chance to just sit with something that you might just like glance over in an oral reading.
Speaker: Right, right.
Speaker: And so with Visio Divina, what I think is really interesting about what Erickson is doing is he's taking a lot of it's like theological concepts more than stories.
Speaker: He has this one called the House of Belonging.
Speaker: That's one of my absolute favorites.
Speaker: And this is a depiction of
Speaker: the parable of the prodigal son.
Speaker: And what's interesting about it is like most of the parables, what's not divinely inspired are the names of the things, the headings in scripture.
Speaker: You know, these were just put arbitrarily to help, you know, guide the reader along.
Speaker: And so the parable of the parable of the prodigal is not only about the prodigal.
Speaker: There are two brothers in this narrative.
Speaker: And so, yes.
Speaker: And so in Scott Erickson's painting, which I can send you links that can be shared in show notes.
Speaker: But in this depiction, you have this house branching off to both sons.
Speaker: And it's really stunning what he's doing in that of looking at, I mean, what I find so meaningful.
Speaker: I think we harp on.
Speaker: the youngest son for running off and spending the money and doing it.
Speaker: But he came back.
Speaker: And then what I find so, what I have found so moving in my personal journey is that you have this older son who's doing the duty.
Speaker: He's doing the work.
Speaker: And like, so he comes in, this party's being had for his younger brother.
Speaker: And he's like, I've been here all along and you haven't,
Speaker: thrown a party for me once and the father's response and I think God's response to so many of us who are like as Robert Farmer Capon talks about in his commentary on the parable so much so many of us are trying to book keep in our faith like oh well like I don't have to earn it because grace but like I still like feel like I need to earn it instead of just being and so like as Capon says like the father and like in connection God to us
Speaker: is basically saying the party has been here all along for you.
Speaker: Right, right.
Speaker: Like, come on in.
Speaker: Like, if you want to stand out here and list off all the things you've done, that's fine.
Speaker: I'm going to go and enjoy this party.
Speaker: Sounds a little boring.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like, that's on you.
Speaker: But, like, the doing is done.
Speaker: And, like, you can...
Speaker: you can come in like yes the fields will still need to be cared for but like please come in and rest and enjoy and so this is just so beautifully depicted in this piece of art so I don't even know how we ended up on this tangent thank you for telling me so yes if you ever get an opportunity Visio Divina is a really wonderful you know that's done in a group as well it can be done in a group it can be done it can be done on your own but it's just that's a little bit like
Speaker: Look at that expression on the Madonna's face.
Speaker: You know.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Next time you're at the Vatican Museums, you can do a whole ton.
Speaker: I'll do one of the next times I'm there.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Just pop it over.
Speaker: Nate goes there frequently.
Speaker: Well, now that Leo's there, he's got more access.
Speaker: Because America.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And he apparently went to school, like, in West Michigan.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah, the Felt Mansion used to be... What do you do with the Felt Mansion?
Speaker: So that used to be a... I'm...
Speaker: This is alleged.
Speaker: This is not.
Speaker: I'm looking at them.
Speaker: I'm making eye contact with the microphone again.
Speaker: I have such a foggy memory of taking a tour of the Felt Mansion, so I don't know the exact deal.
Speaker: But it used to be, you know, owned and operated by the Catholic Church.
Speaker: Is that right?
Speaker: There were nuns that dwelt there.
Speaker: There was, like, there was some seminary connections, which I think was at the point that he was doing things.
Speaker: And then it was just kind of left abandoned for a while.
Speaker: So now, like, now it's...
Speaker: a very expensive wedding venue um the only time i've been there is me and my wife she showed me there because she's from the area and we just walked around outside of it when we were invited or anything if y'all sign up for their email list sometimes they have like writer or artist nights oh cool that's how i ended up there a friend and i went and we were like the oldest by a mile like everyone else were just like retired folks
Speaker: And we were joking of like, maybe there will be like, maybe there will be like Oscar level gift bags.
Speaker: And we showed up and there were gift bags.
Speaker: So I now have like a felt mansion ornament and wine.
Speaker: And this is not relevant to anything.
Speaker: But yes, there is.
Speaker: There is now a papal connection to this place in West Michigan.
Speaker: So go papists.
Speaker: I feel like we answered the second question that I usually ask, which is how's God using art in your life?
Speaker: We kind of just chatted about that a little bit.
Speaker: Is there more you want to elaborate?
Speaker: Honestly, I struggled with that question a little bit.
Speaker: It's a hard one.
Speaker: I mean, just with the question under the question being how the utility of art, you know, and just thinking, like, I don't know.
Speaker: I was just sitting with it, and I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker: Like the, like, how is it being used in my life?
Speaker: I just kind of struggled with, but thinking a lot about like Madeline L'Engle and Walking on Water.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Talks about how like art is kind of a reorienting, like we participate in it or we submit to it.
Speaker: And, you know, it's kind of this, this piece of like, okay,
Speaker: You can take from it what you will, like let it form how you're thinking about the world or like this art of like orientation or discernment, you know?
Speaker: So in like thinking, I was kind of like, okay, we're gonna, I'm reframing in that sense.
Speaker: but thinking through like i my partner and i finished watching the second season of severance i don't know i've heard of it sounds interesting i've not watched it but i haven't gotten there yet wild ride um but yeah just kind of thinking through like some different aspects of like the nature of spiritual abuse kind of in this different this context of like sure you know the workplace and
Speaker: So that was really interesting.
Speaker: Or I'm rereading Jane Austen's Emma, which used to be like my least favorite Jane Austen.
Speaker: Oh, really?
Speaker: One of.
Speaker: Really?
Speaker: And I'm loving it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So yeah, this kind of like just kind of thinking through like, you know, this is this is really...
Speaker: an exploration of community and not community of like i have all of the people i absolutely want exactly but these are the people that i have around me and like how do we how do we relate with people that you know hurt us or you know might not be like our the the like person we want to spend the most time with or whatever but we're in proximity together and so how do we honor that and still maintain relationship even after you know
Speaker: hurt or awkwardness has ensued.
Speaker: So yeah, that's been delightful to sit with.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Have you read Chesterton talking about like community in a similar way?
Speaker: I haven't Chesterton, but it reminds me a lot of Bonhoeffer's life together a little bit.
Speaker: What about Chesterton?
Speaker: Well, he talks about how the real adventure of your life is right there in your house and then like your community too.
Speaker: But he talks about how people feel like they need to get out into the world to experience the world and become a bigger person.
Speaker: But really it's like, if you go out to a city, you're just gonna find a bunch of people like you.
Speaker: Whereas in a little community, like in Emma,
Speaker: You're going to come across people that are not like you and that you're going to have trouble with.
Speaker: And it's the really brave thing to talk to your neighbor.
Speaker: That's the brave thing to do.
Speaker: And so he's really all about...
Speaker: Not like big and branching out, but being small and like being within the area that you are and appreciating the beauty and the life, the vibrancy that's right there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's interesting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's rich.
Speaker: I, yeah.
Speaker: And I feel like, I don't know, almost counter cultural, I guess, in a, in a way of, I feel like there's a tendency to,
Speaker: We like curate everything I feel like in our lives in the modern day.
Speaker: And so I feel like we can easily curate our friendships as well.
Speaker: But I think it's really important to have those different challenging friendships, even though they come with pain.
Speaker: But I think for any rich friendship, you have to kind of just, that's going to happen at some point.
Speaker: And you have to be able to know how to take that and just move forward.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, that's great.
Speaker: Is there anything that you are working on artistically right now?
Speaker: You mentioned you're doing a lot of nonfiction and essay work.
Speaker: Is that the bulk of your time right now?
Speaker: At this point, yes.
Speaker: I am primarily right now, I've been getting a sub stack off the ground.
Speaker: So just trying to play with getting things out at a regular interval.
Speaker: So monthly essays, did I skip this month?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: We skipped last week with the podcast.
Speaker: This is, this is, this is.
Speaker: Did you notice?
Speaker: We didn't.
Speaker: You saved them up to binge them all.
Speaker: I think my mom noticed.
Speaker: Did she?
Speaker: Sweet.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: She's a faithful listener.
Speaker: That's sweet.
Speaker: It's not.
Speaker: Plus mothers.
Speaker: They are great.
Speaker: Yeah, you always have one person looking at your thing.
Speaker: I tell that to my actors.
Speaker: I'm like, you need the young actors that I work with.
Speaker: I'm like, you've got to be on your A game.
Speaker: Because I know that at least your mom is going to watch only you throughout this entire show.
Speaker: That's right.
Speaker: There's all this stuff going on.
Speaker: You're over in the corner.
Speaker: She's watching you.
Speaker: So I'm like, you better be in character.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I joke with authors when Amazon reviews start coming in.
Speaker: And so it's not uncommon for a new author just to be like, I got a one-star review and I'm like,
Speaker: That's amazing because actually if you have only five stars, that looks like your mom and her book club, you know, led the charge.
Speaker: And so this has legitimacy.
Speaker: It's good to have a couple, one, two, three stars.
Speaker: Yeah, it's like somebody is like, it wasn't someone's tea, but it was someone else's.
Speaker: You know, that makes it, it makes it a real book.
Speaker: It's not just the book your mom and her friends are like, oh my gosh.
Speaker: they're so precious and they did the things and he actually like reads it and you know yeah it's great not that moms don't and not that mom's mom's opinions are important they are in this saturday before mother's day when this is being that's true moms are important um but yeah
Speaker: Thanks mom.
Speaker: So yeah, not to say that like their moms can also have criticism, but you know, for the most part, like having a support base of like your key community, but also knowing that like not everyone in your community is going to jive with the same things.
Speaker: Like there are things that, you know, I'm not going to agree with a hundred percent.
Speaker: There are things like across this table that we are not going to agree with one another on.
Speaker: And, but still that like relationship comes out of that.
Speaker: And I think that we're so easy to just be like, oh, well, that was uncomfortable or whatever.
Speaker: And I don't need to be, I don't need to sit with what makes me uncomfortable, which I think is really artistically concerning, but also societally.
Speaker: Well, one of the compelling things, I'm very off topic now, but I love it.
Speaker: This is great.
Speaker: One of the things that I found most compelling about when we did Godspell and putting Jesus in a modern context was how different can I make the disciples?
Speaker: Oh, the shirt.
Speaker: Dressed accordingly.
Speaker: God's back.
Speaker: I did God's back.
Speaker: It was like, how different can you make these disciples?
Speaker: Because in his context, you've got, you have two ends of the spectrum with a zealot and a tax collector.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's like one would literally be killing the other.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And yet Jesus is like, I want you to follow me.
Speaker: You, the specific person that you are.
Speaker: And I also want you to not kill this person and love them because they're also great and valuable, you know, and people's brains can short circuit at that.
Speaker: But I am like,
Speaker: we need to not be so compartmentalized as the body of Christ.
Speaker: Let's let Jesus be this unifying force in our communities.
Speaker: And obviously there's truth and some disagreements are more important than others, right?
Speaker: But you need to, I think, be able to say we are still Christ's
Speaker: people and he can bring us together even though we do vary in how we do things and what we think about these things.
Speaker: That's powerful in that way.
Speaker: There's a curiosity that I think we lack in bringing to that.
Speaker: Because I may be a zealot, let's burn it all down.
Speaker: But at the end of the day, this tax collector is my brother.
Speaker: How can I be curious about where they're at?
Speaker: And this isn't to say in our modern context that it's not...
Speaker: you know, appropriate to, you know, ask questions where, like, concern may be.
Speaker: No, right.
Speaker: But, like, what is it for that to be a question rather than a condemnation and for letting curiosity be part of that?
Speaker: Because the other, the thing we miss out of that is...
Speaker: Joseph Ratzinger or Pope Benedict.
Speaker: You're close with him.
Speaker: Depending on what you want to go.
Speaker: No, like he wrote this.
Speaker: He wrote this when he was Carl Ratzinger.
Speaker: Pre-papal as opposed to papal or post-papal.
Speaker: One of the few people has a post-papal period.
Speaker: Post-papal is fun to say.
Speaker: Post-papal.
Speaker: It just rolls off the tongue.
Speaker: It's like sending a letter to the Pope.
Speaker: papal post this should be his newsletter it should okay we have a chance to do things forget encyclical papal post okay i'm so sorry i'm not fully catholic and so pardoned pardoned to any any dear catholic brothers and sisters um we're very excited about a new pope we are he seems very cool yes yes um i've seen many complaints about him being a white socks fan but that's that's between him and the lord
Speaker: So, anyways.
Speaker: Again, differences and unity in Christ.
Speaker: We can come together even with different sports teams.
Speaker: If Chicago can do it, so can the rest of us.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: But with, with, um, so in, um, Ratzinger's introduction to Christianity is, which is, if you haven't read it is, is a book in which he breaks down each line of the creed is a different chapter in this book.
Speaker: It's really lovely.
Speaker: Apostles creed.
Speaker: And so he has in the chapter about, you know, one holy apostolic and Catholic church, um, is talking about how we all,
Speaker: hold a different piece of who God is, both in our image-bearing nature, but also in our life experiences.
Speaker: Like God is revealing himself to each of us uniquely and that it takes all of us to kind of grant one another a bigger vision of who God is.
Speaker: Like not one person can hold, you know, a vision of the almighty.
Speaker: And so like, this is where like I, with my, my Baptist roots kind of now in this Anglican
Speaker: Circle grew up with this kind of like, Catholics aren't real Christians.
Speaker: And where it's like, I think we all have grown up with some sort of like, you should be suspicious of this little sect of whatever.
Speaker: And it's one thing if there's something heretical going on, but that's not necessarily what's happening.
Speaker: We've had theological disagreements that have splintered off the bride.
Speaker: And so what is it instead to hold curiosity for what is the vision of God that you might bring
Speaker: to the table here we may not agree with like the outworkings of or or not even like agree with but there might be some discomfort in the way i you know express in a worship setting or or live feel that this is the proper conviction to live out something theological from what someone else is doing so what is it instead to be curious and i think with that we ultimately have a more compelling narrative than what we're seeing
Speaker: in the present context.
Speaker: And I can swing this back around to digital stuff.
Speaker: Oh yeah, I'm already thinking, I'm like, I'm like this, I think,
Speaker: This is a compelling sort of call on the Christian life, right?
Speaker: We all sort of have, we as the body of Christ as brothers and sisters have our bedrock, which is Christ and our belief in his death and resurrection and what he's done.
Speaker: And then we have little disagreements about the Eucharist and what we think is happening there.
Speaker: Church authority and how we think God set that up and all of that.
Speaker: But ultimately, if God wanted to rule through a pope or a bishop versus if he wanted to rule the church through an elder board, I don't think you're going to go to hell one way or the other.
Speaker: Unless you're like highly idolizing one over the other.
Speaker: But then I think your issue is beyond your belief in how the truth should be governed.
Speaker: But the digital world, in my experience, I feel like almost is quite counter to that call in my experience of it.
Speaker: And we can unpack that more.
Speaker: But I feel like just with the way that social media thrives off of
Speaker: reactions and getting you engaged with something which often means a negative engagement.
Speaker: Hot takes.
Speaker: Hot takes or only the ability to do short little tweets or responses or 30-second videos.
Speaker: Well, fine, they blow up my intellectual point.
Speaker: But it just runs so counter to that where we're sort of born into this cultural stream now that
Speaker: automatically tries to divide us into these segments and automatically tries to get us to plant our flag on this really tiny little hill that doesn't need to be a lot to get over, you know, and doesn't need to be a big issue.
Speaker: But we plant it and now all the comments are flying, you know?
Speaker: And I really like what I found so disquieting.
Speaker: So further context for anyone listening for y'all.
Speaker: So I was freelancing for a marketing firm that was focused specifically on working with Christian publishers, authors and nonprofits.
Speaker: And so to have a book published, I know this also happens in the theater sphere a lot of times with visual artists as well.
Speaker: You are supposed to be building a platform in order for people to find your work.
Speaker: And I do not think platform in and of itself is a terrible thing.
Speaker: I think there's plenty of people who are like, platform's awful, no one should have it.
Speaker: And like, fair, there's a lot of broken stuff connected to amassing
Speaker: you know, folks into oneself.
Speaker: And we can get into that if we'd like.
Speaker: But I mean, to stick, to hold myself to a linear thought, I just found myself so disquieted by some of the assumptions or some of the actions that were being taken for the sake of promoting one's
Speaker: creative work.
Speaker: And so really, like, as one does when one's bothered by something, I applied to grad school.
Speaker: And I don't recommend that being the first step, but that was mine.
Speaker: You should write an angry Facebook post instead.
Speaker: No, you shouldn't.
Speaker: No, it's cheaper.
Speaker: The damage is irreparable.
Speaker: But I just I found myself really bothered by kind of the binary that we sit in.
Speaker: I'd be there like it's good or it's bad.
Speaker: It's like two things can be true at once.
Speaker: Like people like people can show up in a digital space.
Speaker: in a way that is not helpful, in a way that is divisive.
Speaker: And also like some of the way that these, these, you know, websites and algorithms are formed is not for the sake of human flourishing.
Speaker: So it is, but also what is it to like back up and actually look at what is going on in that space?
Speaker: What is going on with me?
Speaker: Like, what do I think about the world and how does that then inform how I engage?
Speaker: in that digital space.
Speaker: Because like, I mean, John, as you've alluded to, there's limits to an internet space.
Speaker: So like, let's use Instagram as an example of, I can look at someone's profile, I can read through posts,
Speaker: and I can feel like I have an affinity for that person, but that is not that person.
Speaker: It is an avatar of that person.
Speaker: There are limits to the form of that.
Speaker: In art, we talk about form a lot.
Speaker: You're working with visual form, you're working with theater written form.
Speaker: the form of the internet has its limits just like any other piece of media um and in that i think that we we think about the limits of art a lot of times we don't think about the limits of media um in terms of like the media we engage because you know social media is interesting because you're both like a maker and a participant you know and so i i can only you know tweet
Speaker: 280 characters unless I pay more.
Speaker: I can only, you know, I can only, you know, share a link for and have the algorithm send it so far before it's like, you're taking people off of Facebook, you know, like there's, there are these limits to this thing, but also this is something that is ultimately like dehumanizing us as people, as limits of this form.
Speaker: Um, and so it's, it's interesting to think that like, if I read,
Speaker: a post that I don't agree with that gets my, if not my physical blood pressure, my metaphysical blood pressure real high.
Speaker: I am more quick to assume that the individual posting that is not coming to this complexly, as opposed to me who is coming to this complexly, because I live within myself and I know all the complex thoughts and feelings that I have, as opposed to believing that we're all dynamic,
Speaker: We all have a context that's feeding into this and that like, yes, I have blind spots and wrong assumptions, just like this individual has blind spots and wrong assumptions.
Speaker: And we're just living in a day and age.
Speaker: We're just blasting that out.
Speaker: And again, that posture of curiosity, but I think also that posture of recognizing that this is not a neutral space for
Speaker: So how am I thinking about how I'm engaging?
Speaker: How am I thinking about what's happening here?
Speaker: And the fact that like, we cannot bring our full complex selves.
Speaker: to a profile.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so what's the benefit of the doubt there?
Speaker: What's the charitable reading there?
Speaker: Yes, there are people posting terribly un-Christlike things all the time.
Speaker: And that's just part of living in a society.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: As the Joker would say.
Speaker: But also, like, how does, you know, my own ethic and my own convictions, like, how is that impacting how I'm showing up in that space?
Speaker: Whether sharing work as a creative or just as someone taking in
Speaker: work in that space.
Speaker: There's a really wonderful book.
Speaker: Well, first of all, if anybody, I don't know if you've seen the documentary on Netflix called The Social Dilemma.
Speaker: Not yet.
Speaker: I say years after it's come out.
Speaker: I was going to tonight, but I got booked.
Speaker: Let me spoil it.
Speaker: You don't have to know.
Speaker: It's really, it's worth the time.
Speaker: And I found it to be really helpful because it released just as I was starting my dissertation work.
Speaker: So it was really nice to just be like, oh, hello, Scottish academic who doesn't really know much about the internet.
Speaker: Have you seen this thing?
Speaker: This is what I'm talking about.
Speaker: So it was very handy for me in that regard.
Speaker: But it is, I believe it is very much worth the time.
Speaker: Even now, it is still relevant.
Speaker: It's become more relevant.
Speaker: But this whole piece that algorithms are not neutral, your attention is deeply valuable.
Speaker: And also, Jaron Lehner, who is a tech philosopher, talks about a lot of people walked away from this documentary with this thing of like, oh, well, if the product's free, you are actually the product.
Speaker: And that would be your attention.
Speaker: And he makes a statement in the documentary
Speaker: that um it's actually not your attention that it's not you that's the product it's that one degree of change that can be made in you as as a consumer of something there's there's that formational element
Speaker: And I mean, coming out of, you know, an Augustinian bent, like, where is my orientation?
Speaker: Where's the orientation of my loves?
Speaker: Am I letting that?
Speaker: Am I letting this digital space orient my loves?
Speaker: Or am I cognizant of how this is trying to orient me and able to step in?
Speaker: already knowing how I want my loves to be oriented.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So, yes, he has a wonderful book called You Are Not a Gadget.
Speaker: It has like the first chapter is absolutely fantastic.
Speaker: Just about like technology is trying to dehumanize you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Social media is trying to reduce.
Speaker: your humanity by, because like, if you're, if you're coming, if you're building up this platform, that's not complex, then you're, you're going to engage not complexly.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I think that being cognizant of that being the push allows us the freedom to push back because we know, we see how the game is being played and we can do something very different.
Speaker: in that space both in the way we engage and then also the way like as creatives we get to enter into that space so i'd like to hear more about your thoughts about your perspective of like authors and having a platform um my my wife has written a children's book that i'm working on illustrating and would like to do something with it eventually and but we know there's that part of you know you have to
Speaker: a mass following and it seems like frustrating because those are like different skills right being an author and being a social media person yeah and so what are your thoughts about that and any like guidelines or pitfalls in that yes
Speaker: So for anyone who is not familiar with like the way publishing works, I'm a marketer in the publishing industry with one of the big five publishers.
Speaker: And so like I am looking at people's platforms all the time and like having to sit there and be like, OK, is this is this a valid platform or is this something that we can do something with?
Speaker: And like the what's.
Speaker: What's under that is a little bit of publishing history.
Speaker: Back in the day before authors were expected to also be marketers or influencers for their own work, which is a different skill set, as you point out.
Speaker: So it was kind of like you would write the book, someone would edit the book, and then a sales guy would go out physically,
Speaker: to bookstores with a print catalog and be like what do you want to buy to sell to your customers yeah but i ask you when is the last time you ordered something from a catalog a physical catalog and also i looked at a catalog when i was a child well i remember going to the the jc penny catalog store there wasn't any material you just like placed your catalog order um yeah no more those don't exist um does jc penny still exist i don't
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: The fact that we're sitting here questioning this tells us something.
Speaker: We're right here.
Speaker: Right, right, right.
Speaker: Because Sears doesn't.
Speaker: When did that happen?
Speaker: The fact that there's ambiguity and this like speaks something about like the reality of where we're at.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Also, like when is the last time you walked into, you know, a shop to, you need some random thing for the house.
Speaker: When is the last time you walk into a shop and go, hey, what do I need for this?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, I've always done all my research beforehand.
Speaker: And then I put in my earbuds and I'm like, time to listen to a podcast.
Speaker: I wonder if somebody is doing this right now.
Speaker: And I'm like, time to go get what I need.
Speaker: Are you looking at a ruler?
Speaker: If you're walking through right now, if you're walking through clothes, we're grateful for you listening.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: But maybe just ask somebody because you might have been in there for half an hour and they might be able to give it to you.
Speaker: You'll have a good human experience.
Speaker: No, I'm the big proponent of going on the website.
Speaker: And sometimes if you put in the location, they'll tell you exactly what aisle it's on.
Speaker: But also, I mean, you think about these are default habits when we're looking for material.
Speaker: And because societal behavior has changed, the way that marketing happens
Speaker: has had to change.
Speaker: And so suddenly like the marketing person just used to put together like, this is what the catalog says and this is what the cover looks like.
Speaker: Whereas like now that role is kind of shifted in the publishing industry where now like marketers are really driving
Speaker: the sales piece and the salesperson is just taking the call from various larger retailers or organizations for like, oh yeah, you want that many?
Speaker: We'll do that.
Speaker: And so with that, how that has shifted for the author then is the author has to be hands on because people want to know about the material before they jump in.
Speaker: They don't have just the trust of
Speaker: their local book retailer, which if you have a local bookseller that you love, like buy from them, buy local.
Speaker: I did that yesterday.
Speaker: Oh my gosh.
Speaker: Good work.
Speaker: And like, I think it's absolutely beautiful to have relationships with the booksellers at your local bookstores and just getting to know like what's coming out.
Speaker: What do you recommend?
Speaker: Is this actually worth my time?
Speaker: These are great conversations to have.
Speaker: They're just rarer to have.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But also for the,
Speaker: for individuals looking for materials, like we're looking for like the endorsements of our friends or public figures we trust or what have you.
Speaker: And as a marketer for every book I work on, I don't have those relational connections to get that for.
Speaker: every writer on every topic.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Um, and so that's kind of where like the platform need has emerged is understanding that that artist has a relationship with us.
Speaker: They have a sphere of influence, um, that their publisher does not have access to.
Speaker: Um, and so the publisher also has a sphere of influence that they can share with
Speaker: a writer and together like those things hopefully both worked together well to just be like hey this is a book it exists you can buy it um and so like in and of itself it makes sense it's not a bad thing but there's all of these thorny little things that can go along with it so there's this book that was quite i believe is still quite popular called platform by michael hyatt um
Speaker: I have big problems with this book.
Speaker: Don't write that down.
Speaker: Don't make it mad.
Speaker: I just put the writing down.
Speaker: Never mind.
Speaker: But no, he has this statement of like, you know, I can agree with him on...
Speaker: the point of like you know we used to have to stand on stages for people to you know get information um but he has the statement where he's like and stages used to be built of wood or stone now these stages are built of people and i find this so utterly i've never grown on top of a person before
Speaker: I've done a lot of theater.
Speaker: You maybe shouldn't try.
Speaker: I find it disturbing.
Speaker: Like the visual that was in my mind instantly was in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.
Speaker: There's the statue when the Death Eaters have taken over the Ministry of Magic.
Speaker: where it's like these two wizards on top of the corpses of all of these muggles.
Speaker: Like it feels like this utilizing, like this exploitation of people in a way that like, if we believe in the human dignity of our fellow man, like maybe I shouldn't exploit them just to fulfill my creative ambitions.
Speaker: Yeah, like I thought you were going to say like, now this stage is social media.
Speaker: He could have said that.
Speaker: That makes sense.
Speaker: Oh, that's not what he said.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, then there's also something I feel like dehumanizing to you about that.
Speaker: If your goal is just, I'd like to get my book out of in front of people, which anybody who's written wants to do, is desperate to do, then there's like this Faustian bargain of like, okay, I'm going to sell my soul to climb up all these people I'm taking advantage of.
Speaker: Completely.
Speaker: And it forms you into something else.
Speaker: Exactly, exactly.
Speaker: And so like you understand why I had to apply for a graduate program to solve the problem.
Speaker: We've been talking about this for 20 minutes.
Speaker: That would be too long for a Facebook post.
Speaker: So yes, so with this in mind, like this, I found this so like troublesome that like we're asking people to do that, especially artists of faith who are trying to like, you know, kind of reconcile with things of the divine.
Speaker: And we're asking you to like deny the divine nature in your fellow man in order to put something out.
Speaker: Like it just, it does not, it doesn't work.
Speaker: And also like it does not work.
Speaker: And also people need to be able to find things.
Speaker: what you're doing in order to partake of it.
Speaker: You know, it's, and so this is the thing, two things can be true at the same time.
Speaker: And so how do we move forward?
Speaker: And so, so many authors that I work with are just like, I don't want to be, I don't want to be self-promotional.
Speaker: And you think that there's, there's a difference.
Speaker: And I, if we want to go down the rabbit hole, I'm happy to go down the rabbit hole on all of that.
Speaker: But to complete the circle here, see if I can do it.
Speaker: I believe it.
Speaker: It's still there.
Speaker: OK, so I have a friend who is a ghostwriter and a freelance editor.
Speaker: Andy Rogers, if you need a ghost writer, he's good at what he does.
Speaker: Not really into ghost stories, but okay.
Speaker: Great.
Speaker: Yeah, that's totally what's going on.
Speaker: So he's excellent at what he does, but he had said back in his, he in a previous life was also a book marketer and had talked about like that Paul was a tent maker.
Speaker: And how did people know that Paul was a tent maker?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: He had to tell people that.
Speaker: he was a tent maker and this is how he you know got around this is how he funded you know the mission this is how he traveled from place to place like a lot of the church was built because people needed tents from paul and like if they didn't know that he was doing this he wouldn't have gotten anywhere right you know and so there's there's that piece of it but also like that's a different skill set
Speaker: than, you know, shepherding a church.
Speaker: Right, right.
Speaker: You know, marketing your book is a different skill set than writing the book.
Speaker: It's probably Barnabas doing that stuff, right?
Speaker: The pastoring side or the tent side?
Speaker: No, no, the marketing.
Speaker: Oh, the marketing.
Speaker: I understand.
Speaker: I missed it completely.
Speaker: I was like, are you saying Paul didn't make tents?
Speaker: No, he made them.
Speaker: But then Barnabas.
Speaker: And then Barnabas.
Speaker: He sold him.
Speaker: Sold him.
Speaker: We needed him.
Speaker: Come get your tents here.
Speaker: And the gospel will save your soul and keep you warm at night.
Speaker: Pretty good.
Speaker: Thanks.
Speaker: The Aramaic was spot on.
Speaker: I have a bachelor's in ministry.
Speaker: Did that help you develop the transatlantic accent for Barnabas?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: It's great.
Speaker: That was what most of my focus was.
Speaker: Transatlantic ministry.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: No, that's fascinating, though.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: How do you... This is a huge question.
Speaker: How do you do that?
Speaker: How do you do that help me?
Speaker: Because I feel that tension a lot, I think, especially with Artists of the Way stuff.
Speaker: You know, it's a podcast.
Speaker: You'd like people to listen to the podcast.
Speaker: You'd like people to come see Godspell.
Speaker: And I think that's just the era we're in with artists, as we've been saying.
Speaker: It's sort of this... The digital platform is the platform where it feels like we have to...
Speaker: put out the work, but I can see it always trying to pull me in.
Speaker: How do you engage with that without letting it form you into something not human?
Speaker: And how do you
Speaker: How do you fight back against that and maybe make something that is better for those who are engaging with it?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: We're going to go on a little journey here.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Let's get that tent that you bought from Paul.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: That Pauline tent.
Speaker: Everybody talks about the Pauline theology.
Speaker: That just sounds like a good brand of tent, Pauline.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: Pauline of Tents.
Speaker: Okay, hang on.
Speaker: Before we jump on this little journey, you could just make this little camping gear business, and you could put most of the funds to charity.
Speaker: How has someone not done this?
Speaker: Pauline Tents.
Speaker: Pauline Tents.
Speaker: Pauline Lanterns.
Speaker: You know, just all this campground.
Speaker: Ladies and gentlemen, free ideas.
Speaker: Free ideas.
Speaker: Take it across.
Speaker: I haven't copyrighted this.
Speaker: Anybody who loves camping gear, Mom, I know you like camping gear.
Speaker: Imagine Pauline camping gear.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Lied with truth.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Good joke.
Speaker: Nice work.
Speaker: Nice work.
Speaker: Anyway, yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Marshall McLuhan.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Not Paul.
Speaker: Marshall McLuhan is a Canadian media philosopher converted to Catholicism.
Speaker: Faith really intersected a lot of what he was doing, but probably what he's most famous for is the phrase, the medium is the message.
Speaker: Ah, yes.
Speaker: I've heard that message.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: People have gotten that.
Speaker: And so with that, in the book that he is talking about this, which I have in my bag over there, it has a title.
Speaker: One more minute.
Speaker: Grab it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: So yes, Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan.
Speaker: He drops this.
Speaker: She didn't want us to see it.
Speaker: I'm not Phantom White.
Speaker: I'm hand modeled only casually.
Speaker: So, Marshall McLuhan, he has this phrase, medium is the message.
Speaker: But with that, he talks about when we're taking in media, a lot of times it's an extension of the human body.
Speaker: So right now, like this podcast for the three of us is an extension of our voice.
Speaker: For the listener taking it in, like they're extending their ears in a Roman and countrymen kind of way.
Speaker: You know, like when we're taking in something, like if I'm posting something, I'm also lending my voice that way.
Speaker: We're extending our human sensory faculties.
Speaker: It's like a weapon, but not as violent, where that's like an extension of your arm or a tool.
Speaker: It's a zero violence media weapon.
Speaker: Or like a tool.
Speaker: Like a plunger.
Speaker: Like a hoe.
Speaker: Yeah, or a plunger.
Speaker: I don't know why ho's the tool that I picked.
Speaker: Let's move on.
Speaker: It's extending another.
Speaker: So, yes.
Speaker: So, in hopes that this is not an extension of human excrement, but instead of human discourse.
Speaker: Don't be a savage review.
Speaker: If you hate this podcast, please leave a review that says this is just an extension of human excrement.
Speaker: Because that would be amazing.
Speaker: That would be pretty good.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I did.
Speaker: I did write.
Speaker: This is a complete footnote.
Speaker: But in one of my grad papers, I was writing a theological exploration.
Speaker: We had to choose a piece of art to do a theological critique of.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I was reading Daniel Nairi's Everything Sad is Untrue.
Speaker: Oh, well, my wife read that recently.
Speaker: It's on my list.
Speaker: I haven't read it yet.
Speaker: It's so good.
Speaker: He has, I don't know if she talked about this, but there are these like interspersing poop narratives at like key emotional low points in the story.
Speaker: Like the story is like it's a 12 year old boy who's telling his life story as a refugee who has come from Iran.
Speaker: to Oklahoma in the 90s.
Speaker: And so he's telling the story like a middle school boy.
Speaker: There's lots of tangents.
Speaker: It's very circular in nature.
Speaker: So it also kind of mirrors Persian story structure, which is fascinating.
Speaker: But he has these poop stories that I think are doing something very significant.
Speaker: And I wrote this in a paper and I wrote it for the professor is like a leading eschatologist.
Speaker: And so like I like to think that since I wrote her a theological treatise on poop that this makes me the world's first theological scatologist.
Speaker: So take with that what you will.
Speaker: End footnote, Marshall McLuhan, extensions of the human through media.
Speaker: We don't exist in, without a context as humans.
Speaker: And so this is, this is where I was taking his thought and trying to extend this.
Speaker: Like my
Speaker: Dear lovely supervisor was like, this is original thought really park right here.
Speaker: So this is my original thought.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Um, so we, we exist in a context, like, yes, in this podcast, we are, you know, trying to extend our voices.
Speaker: for the conversation for people who want to participate in that pair socially, but we're doing it in a room.
Speaker: We're sitting at a table.
Speaker: This is the setting in which we're doing this.
Speaker: When we're taking in media, we're doing it within a context of our locality and our daily lives.
Speaker: And so what I think to echo, this is a journey, so we're coming back around.
Speaker: So you asked me, how do we do this well as believers?
Speaker: I think really it comes from the posture of what
Speaker: location.
Speaker: are we extending when we are extending our media?
Speaker: Am I doing this?
Speaker: If I have a book, am I actually extending a used car lot of like, hey, buy my book.
Speaker: It's gonna do X, Y, Z for you.
Speaker: I'm gonna try and like strong arm you into purchasing this thing.
Speaker: Or am I doing it from a stage of like, hello, look at what I've done.
Speaker: This is why you need to be part of this.
Speaker: Let me try and persuade you into this.
Speaker: Or what I think is the most healthy
Speaker: context to extend is my living room.
Speaker: I was wondering if you'd say that.
Speaker: That's nice.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so like, am I inviting you in to come sit with me?
Speaker: Not as, not as an expert, not as someone trying to schlep something, but someone that's just here as a peer who has created something for us.
Speaker: Story time.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Like I love to, I love to host dinner parties.
Speaker: I love to have people around my table.
Speaker: And so with that, it takes time to prepare the meal, like creating a piece of art, be that, you know, you're writing a draft, you're in rehearsals, you're working on an underpainting to then, you know, bring forth something visual.
Speaker: This is all preparing something for someone else to partake of.
Speaker: in some way right and so it is it's the preparing of an artistic meal for people to enjoy and have discourse around and for you also as the creative individual to hold discourse that's something we haven't been able really to do up until the advent of social media for someone to like actually correspond
Speaker: with the artist in that kind of dialogical way, which I think is really interesting.
Speaker: I don't think that's something to spurn just because there's so many other tensions within the context.
Speaker: But instead, if I come to it with this posture of hospitality, of this digital hospitality, I'm extending my table, I'm extending my living room, I'm inviting you in, come and partake.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so there's that piece of it where that becomes challenging then is with this platform piece of growth.
Speaker: And so what I really urge creatives, which may not be the most encouraging if they've been told, and this is not always true, but if they've been told you need to have 10,000 followers on any given platform, it's way more complicated than that.
Speaker: And it is not only digital.
Speaker: Like also let me say like your platform is not only digital.
Speaker: It can be very many things.
Speaker: You know, it's just it's a platform.
Speaker: Essentially, it's just kind of like where are people able to find you and have they gain trust in what you're doing?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's really what we're asking about, at least in publishing.
Speaker: If you have a platform, like, is that... Like, are you bringing some of that to the table in a way that we can help amplify that?
Speaker: But I know many people who want to share work who are just like, my platform is really small.
Speaker: I don't... My engagement rates aren't great.
Speaker: My follower count hasn't grown a whole lot.
Speaker: But really, like...
Speaker: I think this is that dehumanizing internet piece of that.
Speaker: Those, that number are individual souls that have decided, I would like to continue to see what is happening here.
Speaker: And is the artwork any less valid because there's three people who are participating in that or 30,000?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And so really, it's not necessarily three is not going to get you a book deal if that's how many people are subscribed to your email newsletter.
Speaker: But that's three individuals that care about what you're doing.
Speaker: And one of them is probably your mom.
Speaker: And you owe it to her to give her good things, too.
Speaker: You can't phone it in just because it's your mom.
Speaker: She loves you.
Speaker: You love her through making this thing.
Speaker: And this is very thematic.
Speaker: It's really sad.
Speaker: This isn't going to be live before Mother's Day.
Speaker: But, you know, can you be safe?
Speaker: Save this episode till next Mother's Day.
Speaker: How is it in May 2026?
Speaker: Don't tell us.
Speaker: I don't want to know.
Speaker: Could be great.
Speaker: A lot is writing on Leo over here.
Speaker: So, yeah, yeah, that's that's my that's thus concludes that journey.
Speaker: No, that's good.
Speaker: I think, and I think that particularly that piece about remembering to see, this isn't a number, this is people.
Speaker: I've heard around before, but like...
Speaker: I still, I'm like, you know, I grew up in the internet age, so I hear YouTubers who like got burnt out and then they left and then they came back and they're like, okay, and now I'm remembering that like you few thousand are still subscribed.
Speaker: Like, oh, you're people.
Speaker: I'm like, okay, cool.
Speaker: This is a fact that I know.
Speaker: But I catch myself doing it.
Speaker: Like just our last two episodes, one was like 80 people and then the last one was 40.
Speaker: And I was like, oh, but I really liked that last episode we did and only 40.
Speaker: Which one was it?
Speaker: The Eternity one.
Speaker: But no, I was, I like caught myself being like disappointed that it was only like, it was like half the numbers of the last one.
Speaker: But then I was like, but that's still 40 people.
Speaker: You probably don't know all of them personally.
Speaker: No, and I'm like, they still,
Speaker: hopefully, God willing, benefited from something we were able to give and just that gift as an artist to be able to serve people
Speaker: Whatever audience, however big or small, whoever God brings to you, I think is, it's making me think of the last episode now again with the Leaf by Niggle.
Speaker: Have you ever read Leaf by Niggle by Tolkien?
Speaker: Like ages ago.
Speaker: He has this, when that tree that he's been painting and he sees it in heaven and he says it's a gift.
Speaker: Just I think that posture of the art we have, the people that come to it, all of that is a gift.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And like approaching it with gratitude is important to keep you grounded.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because it's really it's really easy to compare.
Speaker: that's out there.
Speaker: And a lot of the times the people that we're comparing ourselves to are people who have been doing this for multiple decades.
Speaker: Like they got in when something was like really new.
Speaker: They were doing something really revolutionary.
Speaker: Why don't I have 1.85 million followers like Markiplier?
Speaker: Right, right, right.
Speaker: And like, let's ignore that like he's one of the OG YouTubers and it's just like he's kind of forged a genre all his own.
Speaker: You know, like that's- What about the genre of two guys in a room talking?
Speaker: We're doing that.
Speaker: But there's so many.
Speaker: There's so many.
Speaker: And this is the thing is like, and that's not to,
Speaker: I think really like the myth of scarcity becomes overwhelming where it's like it's not even worth trying.
Speaker: Where it's like, but is it worth doing this thing that you love even if it's not going to be like this massive numerical success?
Speaker: Like is it enough for...
Speaker: for the process of the making of the thing.
Speaker: And because here's the other thing as well, is you can have thousands of followers, you can get the book deal.
Speaker: That also doesn't mean it's going to be a commercial success.
Speaker: You can put on an entire show and that doesn't necessarily mean that people are going to come or that people are going to resonate with it in the way that you hoped they would.
Speaker: But was there something still valuable in the making of
Speaker: the thing if it's not you know going gangbusters and when we're talking living in the context of eternity it's things are completely different than we may think they are right because of how something could affect one person or even us when we produce something in eternity how much difference does it make than this netflix show that million people watch but then just switch to the next netflix show the next day
Speaker: Yeah, where it's like if there's like if one of those people is going to like thoughtfully take that in.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like that's so much more valuable than just skipping on to the next whatever.
Speaker: And so can we honor, you know, that person who has decided to enter into the living room to sit down at the dining room table or the extension of the dining room table with us.
Speaker: and see what we're doing.
Speaker: Can we honor that instead of just being like, ah, well, more y'all need to get around my table.
Speaker: I'm not serving.
Speaker: This is ridiculous.
Speaker: Where are you?
Speaker: That would be a terrible party to show up at.
Speaker: I'm like, oh, there's just you.
Speaker: So I see you coming to my table today.
Speaker: It's last week.
Speaker: It's almost like
Speaker: when Jesus is rebuking, like the Pharisees are saying, like, you don't sit at, or maybe this is James, this might be James, when it's don't go to the table and look for the rich person to sit with and put the poor person in the poor spot, but the rich person in this hypothetical person's mind isn't there and they're trying to sit with this person that isn't even at the table.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: When there's this person who needs what they're offering that...
Speaker: deserves that care and time yeah that's interesting i mean similarly to what we're talking about with chesterton of like i mean you can try and go out and find those people but like there's people already with you right like right what are you doing for them and like how are they like being honored within you know like what is the hospitable action yeah being extended
Speaker: to it's hard just to take care of a couple people totally yeah well and so this is the other thing as well of like i mean we're not relationship isn't scalable you know i mean how many times have we have we seen very public ministers fail out of ministry in these gigantic things where they were not held accountable three times
Speaker: Only three?
Speaker: That's what we've seen.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: It's only happened to three guys.
Speaker: But that was significant times.
Speaker: There's a lot.
Speaker: There's a lot of this happening in small and big ways across different organizations.
Speaker: And, like, I mean, we're kind of looking at because, I mean, I also think on some level, I mean, specifically, like, with the publishing company I'm working with, like, I'm working with a lot of, like, pastors and scholars.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And with that, it kind of becomes an extension of the pulpit, especially nonfiction.
Speaker: It kind of becomes an extension of the pulpit.
Speaker: And yet, we need to think a lot more about, is this also James?
Speaker: Like, warning against being teachers?
Speaker: This could be this is Paulish somewhere.
Speaker: Someone's being warned in the New Testament.
Speaker: That is Paul.
Speaker: Not all of you should seek to be teachers because of the level of responsibility.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And we don't I just I don't think a lot of people think that of that same Timothy.
Speaker: Someone.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Sorry.
Speaker: It's a good word.
Speaker: In the word.
Speaker: The Holy Spirit wrote this.
Speaker: It's in there.
Speaker: Trust me, it's there.
Speaker: It's in there with all those maps.
Speaker: Somewhere between Genesis and the maps.
Speaker: Yes, that's right.
Speaker: There's this word from Paul.
Speaker: Oh, gosh, who is that?
Speaker: There's a Christian comedian, and that was her.
Speaker: Her whole shtick was she read the Bible from Genesis to maps.
Speaker: She has a name, but it's escaping me right now.
Speaker: But if you were an evangelical in the 80s or early 90s, you probably know who it was.
Speaker: So shout out in the comments.
Speaker: Do it.
Speaker: So yes.
Speaker: But that like, I mean, if it's an extension of the pulpit or an extension of the like the pastor's office,
Speaker: then like do we bear that same responsibility of teaching?
Speaker: I think on some level, yes.
Speaker: I think that there should be some fear and trembling that we can.
Speaker: That's something that I've thought about a lot with artists that,
Speaker: is there, especially as like we've been talking in artists of the way we're kind of growing the organization, we're talking about if we're going to do another show, thinking specifically in the context of a director, especially in a Christian context, you are forming these people's lives in some way.
Speaker: And if you are a creator who is...
Speaker: like one of the main people that like, if, if like, I have like two or three podcasts that I listened to on the regular, these people are influential in my lives and my lives in my multiple lives.
Speaker: You're so feline.
Speaker: I am.
Speaker: I actually believe in reincarnation.
Speaker: Wild twist.
Speaker: Um, um,
Speaker: They do.
Speaker: And some of them I can trust more than others.
Speaker: Your lives?
Speaker: Oh, no, the podcast people.
Speaker: Maybe of my lives, too.
Speaker: No, but of these people that I listen to on the regular that are intelligent or maybe just silly and fun, and sometimes I have to guard against it, and sometimes...
Speaker: You know, I'm but there's still an influence there.
Speaker: And so some thought must be given to how does this shape people?
Speaker: And what's my responsibility as some sort of spiritual leader?
Speaker: Even if I'm not a pastor, there's a responsibility and a weight there that I think.
Speaker: We don't need to overthink because God can help us through that.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So if you're making a Facebook post, as an artist of like, I'm going to be at this event on Wednesday and I'm going to share this thing, you don't need to overthink.
Speaker: Is this going to lead somebody into heresy necessarily?
Speaker: Does God want me to capitalize 2pm or lowercase the pm?
Speaker: He wants it lowercase with two periods between the pm.
Speaker: Is that how you recommend it?
Speaker: I mean, the style guide of the first place I worked for.
Speaker: Oh, I see.
Speaker: And I worked for a college admissions, like, deal.
Speaker: There was a lot of dates and times.
Speaker: But I do think, like, in this sort of, like, oh, like, the weight of that.
Speaker: Like, I think there is, like, I mean, St.
Speaker: Augustine talks about, like, love God and do what one will.
Speaker: You know, of that, like, there is grace for the fact that we are human.
Speaker: God is not surprised by this.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: What?
Speaker: You're a person?
Speaker: You made a mistake?
Speaker: Yes, yes.
Speaker: Why do you keep doing that?
Speaker: Every single one of you.
Speaker: He is not shocked in the least.
Speaker: And so with that, it's again, two things can be true.
Speaker: understand like the responsibility that is here and yet also everything you're doing is not this extension you're also not that big as you know i'm just kind of like yes this is important and i want to do this well and also there is grace for just who i am as a person and i will move forward i'm not going to let myself be paralyzed thinking there's only one
Speaker: Right, correct way to do something, but instead trust of like, I love the Lord.
Speaker: I, you know, I feel called to this or I am leaning into, you know, this, this gift that he's given.
Speaker: And, you know, I'm going, I'm going to tread.
Speaker: as faithfully as I am able and, you know, make grace cover where I am not, you know, gives you that freedom to keep moving ahead without, you know, without this like, oh my gosh, I made a typo.
Speaker: Now everybody's going to think that that's how you spell that word.
Speaker: They're not going to think that, but they might just be a typo.
Speaker: They might be like, I don't know if this is quality.
Speaker: And that's fair.
Speaker: They can question that.
Speaker: But it does not take away your value as a human being to have a typo.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: That's good.
Speaker: This has been lovely.
Speaker: There's more we want to talk to you about, but I think that we're at time, so we'll just have to invite you on again.
Speaker: That's fair.
Speaker: last question what i ask everybody and part of what i hope to build out with this platform is several resources that people can go to if they are trying to grow as artists or as christians so do you have give us give us a couple resources here for those living in the digital age trying to be good artists and physical books okay so what i referenced we have marshall mccluan's understanding media is like if you want to get like
Speaker: really nerdy about like media theory that's that but for um for more people who are just like on the artist deal i'm sure people talk about this but dorothy sayers mind of the maker i love this book yeah it's so it's so lovely just like this is this is a theology of making okay and so that's really excellent i reference this one that you are not a gadget yes by jaron laner
Speaker: um and then something else that i think is just handy for um folks who are creating and kind of are in that struggle of like it has to be like i need to be making money or it needs to be productive or it needs to be doing something phenomenal instead of letting yourself just be in creating making time by maria balder
Speaker: is so great.
Speaker: So the subtitle for this is a new vision for crafting a life beyond productivity.
Speaker: And so she's going through kind of like, what is it to like make and unmake a creative life?
Speaker: And like, that's a constant process as life as life seasons change.
Speaker: And there's different demands on time and attention.
Speaker: And yet you can still be creative.
Speaker: And it does not have to be this like, Oh, well, I'm I'm further along than I was
Speaker: So like my making needs to be this top notch and it needs to always be bigger and better.
Speaker: Like what is it to just let yourself be and make and you know, explore that creative side of your soul.
Speaker: So really, really lovely.
Speaker: I feel like half of those, at least maybe all of those are going to go on my Christmas list.
Speaker: I'm like, those are exciting.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker: This was just a really great discussion.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker: It's been absolutely delightful.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I appreciate your questions and your input.
Speaker: Yeah.
