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Navigating the Dehumanizing Digital Age with Alexis De Weese
64 Plays7 months ago
In this episode Jon and Nate chat with Alexis De Weese about the relationship between artists and the digital world, and how we can pursue hospitality and health in an age that increasingly seeks to dehumanize us.
Alexis De Weese has created marketing strategies for million-book bestsellers and even NBA All-Star champions for the past decade within the publishing industry. Lex works as the senior marketing manager with Zondervan Reflective, an imprint of HarperCollins Publishers. She researches the intersection of algorithm ethics and digital hospitality as a continuation of her dissertation work at the Institute of Theology, Imagination, and the Arts at the University of St. Andrews. When she is not planning her next trip back to Scotland or drinking too much tea, she writes fiction and hosts dinner parties for her community in western Michigan. You can keep up with her latest essays on How to Be on the Internet on Substack at lexdeweese.substack.com or on her social media @LexDeWeese
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Artists of the Way' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
00:00:02
Speaker
I'm John, the host.
00:00:04
Speaker
Today, Nate and I are joined by Alexis DeWeese.
00:00:08
Speaker
Alexis is a senior marketing manager at Zondervan, and she has an M.L.I.T.
00:00:15
Speaker
in theology, imagination, and the arts from the University of St.
00:00:20
Speaker
Andrews.
Challenges in the Digital Age for Artists and Christians
00:00:21
Speaker
Alexis chats with us about what it means to be an artist and a Christian in the digital age.
00:00:28
Speaker
How do you navigate that space well?
00:00:30
Speaker
How do you engage with a medium that's constantly trying to pull you in a dehumanizing direction without losing your humanity?
00:00:39
Speaker
It's a really great conversation that Nate and I loved having.
00:00:42
Speaker
It's really wonderful.
00:00:44
Speaker
Can't wait to share it with you guys.
00:00:46
Speaker
First wanted to give a quick update on the podcast as well.
00:00:49
Speaker
We're going to move to monthly episodes just for the next couple of months.
00:00:54
Speaker
We're getting close to the arrival of my child, which I'm very excited about.
00:00:59
Speaker
But with that in mind and trying to keep a good balance for Nate and mine's plates, we're just going to shift to monthly episodes.
00:01:09
Speaker
Should be back to bi-weekly by the end of the summer for sure.
Alexis DeWeese's Creative and Spiritual Journey
00:01:13
Speaker
Just try not to overload Nate and I in this busy season.
00:01:17
Speaker
Thank you guys so much for listening, for tuning in every episode.
00:01:20
Speaker
It's a blessing to get to have these conversations and then to have some people to share them with who enjoy them every time we put one out.
00:01:30
Speaker
I am so grateful that these are a benefit or a joy or something to you.
00:01:37
Speaker
There's some reason you keep coming back, but I'm incredibly blessed and grateful.
00:01:43
Speaker
And I am so appreciative of all of you.
00:01:45
Speaker
I thank you so much for listening.
00:01:49
Speaker
Yeah, I can't wait to share this episode with you.
00:01:51
Speaker
Just a lot of really rich, great thoughts, thoughts from Alexis in this episode.
00:01:57
Speaker
It was, it was great for me.
00:01:59
Speaker
I'm still chewing on a lot of the stuff that we talked about.
00:02:02
Speaker
So without any further ado, Alexis Deweese.
00:02:09
Speaker
Thank you for coming on.
00:02:11
Speaker
I've been wanting to have you on the podcast for a while actually, and it was just the right timing.
00:02:16
Speaker
So I'm really excited to chat with you.
00:02:18
Speaker
First, would you be willing to share with us and with our audience a little bit just of your background as an artist and as a believer?
00:02:27
Speaker
So I was trying to think through like a succinct way through this.
00:02:31
Speaker
So I've always been a storyteller.
00:02:34
Speaker
Like imaginative play was always like very melodramatic.
00:02:37
Speaker
twists and turns and like you know barbies and soap opera context kind of thing um and around the point that i was um 13 i kind of made the shift from like imaginative play to like suddenly paper where it was like suddenly my friends aren't like participating in this but like i just remember like laying awake at night like terrified that like my imagination would go away so like just like bargaining with god oh man um
00:03:03
Speaker
Very existential.
00:03:05
Speaker
And yes, God, God was gracious as he is want to be.
00:03:09
Speaker
Good job, God.
00:03:10
Speaker
You just have to sacrifice a goat every year.
00:03:12
Speaker
It's worth it.
00:03:14
Speaker
Yes, it's coming up.
00:03:15
Speaker
I'm due in June.
00:03:18
Speaker
And so, so paper became, you know, where that play would happen.
00:03:22
Speaker
I've always been a reader.
00:03:23
Speaker
And so suddenly like novels was kind of where I was playing.
00:03:26
Speaker
And they were terrible, but they were happening.
00:03:29
Speaker
And so that was what I would do with a lot of my time.
Intersection of Creativity and Digital Media
00:03:33
Speaker
But I was also very cognizant of kind of the quality gap between art and media that was created out of a Christian context.
00:03:43
Speaker
And that wasn't and still could be made by believing individuals, but it wasn't on this like proselytizing path that made it so...
00:03:55
Speaker
We will say the same thing together at the same time a lot.
00:04:00
Speaker
The chemistry is just the same thing.
00:04:02
Speaker
We just love deep, rich things that we agree with or that are intriguing.
00:04:05
Speaker
There you go.
00:04:08
Speaker
Yes.
00:04:10
Speaker
So yeah, there's like that was kind of that's where like as an artist like I started just like embracing like, okay, this is this is something that I really love.
00:04:17
Speaker
This is something that I really, you know, I Howard Thurman talks about like, wait, like the calling that you're you're meant to have being like what makes you come alive.
00:04:27
Speaker
Yes, people that are alive.
00:04:28
Speaker
And so this was just kind of that thing that it was kind of like there's there's something here.
00:04:35
Speaker
that really just resonates deeply with my soul.
00:04:41
Speaker
And so like as an artist, that was a piece, but like as I've become an adult or am in the process of that, I don't think anyone arrives.
00:04:51
Speaker
But was like, you know, just navigated through some spiritual abuse experiences.
00:04:57
Speaker
And, you know, so that's kind of started me on this trajectory of
00:05:01
Speaker
um theological exploration yeah for myself so like if i was putting a label on it i would like put myself at the camp of like anglo-catholic mysticism is kind of where you know i i make my home these days um and you know started pursuing theological study in a long roundabout way i ended up in
00:05:22
Speaker
Scotland at the University of St.
00:05:24
Speaker
Andrews at the Institute for Theology, Imagination, and the Arts.
00:05:28
Speaker
Wow.
00:05:29
Speaker
That's a cool name.
00:05:30
Speaker
Oh, man.
00:05:30
Speaker
It's such a cool, it's such a cool, because there's not a lot of seminary programs that fully embrace the study of theology and art.
00:05:37
Speaker
Like, this is a whole wing for listeners that don't know.
00:05:40
Speaker
I don't know why I'm making eye contact with them.
00:05:43
Speaker
It needs to know.
00:05:46
Speaker
But for anybody who doesn't know, this is actually a formal theological arm.
00:05:50
Speaker
This is a whole branch of study.
00:05:53
Speaker
So there's a few divinity schools that have them.
00:05:56
Speaker
There's one at Duke.
00:05:58
Speaker
There's one in London.
00:05:59
Speaker
And then one in St.
00:06:00
Speaker
Andrews.
00:06:01
Speaker
And there's others cropping up.
00:06:03
Speaker
It's a growing...
00:06:04
Speaker
It's a growing thing where theologians just kind of have this as a pet project.
00:06:08
Speaker
And then we're like, oh, yeah, we should also train people to do this.
00:06:13
Speaker
So yeah, I found myself there kind of in tandem with my work in the publishing industry, kind of looking at that intersection of creative work and how
00:06:24
Speaker
public thinkers and creatives like engage the the digital world that they're kind of pressured to share work in or promote work in like how do you how do you navigate those tensions um and that was that was kind of the the like point of my um my research was just kind of leaning into that trying to think through like what is what is it to have um
00:06:48
Speaker
you know, an ethic as a creative person in the digital realm.
Artistic Fulfillment through Nonfiction Writing
00:06:53
Speaker
So yeah, that's where a lot of my writing now kind of focuses.
00:06:57
Speaker
I mean, there's still definitely dabbling with like fiction and creative stuff, but like at this season of my life, that's been sort of more of the like the nonfiction ethics, essays, rants, what have you.
00:07:11
Speaker
Does that, this is a slightly off topic question, but do you feel like that
00:07:18
Speaker
fulfills a similar part of like that calling that you're talking about because it feels like sometimes there can be an interesting intersection between one's artistic side and intellectual side.
00:07:30
Speaker
Do you feel like in working in largely sort of a nonfiction essayist
00:07:35
Speaker
world that you get some like artistic fulfillment from that or literary fulfillment?
00:07:41
Speaker
I mean, that's a great, it's like, that's, it feels like it's an ever evolving answer.
00:07:45
Speaker
Like, I feel like it's a different sort of creative fulfillment.
00:07:49
Speaker
There's not going to be that moment.
00:07:51
Speaker
Like for anyone who does write fiction, there is just kind of this like really, I think,
00:07:56
Speaker
ultimately like kind of sacred moment where like you are writing something and you're like, oh, I need to solve this problem.
00:08:02
Speaker
Like what I thought was going to happen.
00:08:03
Speaker
Yes.
00:08:04
Speaker
Yes.
00:08:04
Speaker
They're doing their own thing.
00:08:05
Speaker
Yes.
00:08:06
Speaker
And suddenly like as you just kind of like allow that to happen.
00:08:11
Speaker
Yeah.
Exploring Visio Divina and Theological Concepts
00:08:13
Speaker
you just kind of realize like, oh, wait, there has been like all these things that have like lined up to get us to that point.
00:08:18
Speaker
I feel like this is what so many fiction artists are chasing.
00:08:24
Speaker
And it's very different than that.
00:08:26
Speaker
But there is still this like,
00:08:29
Speaker
I think like there's a devotional artist that I don't know if you're familiar with Scott Erickson he has some really fantastic both kind of like Vizio Divina like work out there Scott the painter on Instagram do you know Vizio Divina
00:08:44
Speaker
No.
00:08:44
Speaker
You would love Vizio Divina.
00:08:45
Speaker
What's that word?
00:08:46
Speaker
Would you explain Vizio Divina?
00:08:47
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:08:48
Speaker
We're just taking a left turn here.
00:08:50
Speaker
Okay.
00:08:50
Speaker
Okay.
00:08:51
Speaker
So Vizio Divina, do you know about Lectio Divina?
00:08:54
Speaker
Let's start thinking.
00:08:55
Speaker
Do I know about Lectio Divina?
00:08:57
Speaker
Okay.
00:08:58
Speaker
So to understand the one, we're going to understand the one.
00:09:02
Speaker
So Lectio Divina.
00:09:03
Speaker
Okay.
00:09:04
Speaker
We're going to read a small passage of scripture.
00:09:06
Speaker
We're going to each read it.
00:09:08
Speaker
Like one of us is going to read it aloud and we're all just going to kind of sit and think on that for a minute.
00:09:12
Speaker
We're going to read it a second time for some familiarity.
00:09:16
Speaker
And, you know, and then we might read it silently together once again.
00:09:20
Speaker
And then we're going to start talking through what we're picking up from it.
00:09:23
Speaker
So what out of the word is.
00:09:25
Speaker
is being divined.
00:09:28
Speaker
So Lectio Divina.
00:09:31
Speaker
So similarly, Visio Divina is looking at- Visual.
00:09:35
Speaker
Yes.
00:09:36
Speaker
And so you're not, the Bible isn't visual.
00:09:39
Speaker
And so really what you're doing with that- Very few pictures, a few maps.
00:09:43
Speaker
depending on your ambition.
00:09:44
Speaker
God ordained maps.
00:09:46
Speaker
God made those maps.
00:09:47
Speaker
Yes, yes.
00:09:48
Speaker
I work for a publishing company that does a lot of Bible resources, and we just released an atlas that I can promise you was not.
00:09:54
Speaker
God just gave us either, right?
00:09:55
Speaker
It was not divinely put together, but we're thankful for it nonetheless.
00:10:02
Speaker
Oh, yes.
00:10:03
Speaker
We're gonna pretend that there was like a creedal council for the maps in my office.
00:10:08
Speaker
Before any of this place.
00:10:12
Speaker
Yes, we think this is what the outer wall looked like in Jerusalem.
00:10:16
Speaker
We're gonna pray about it and make it so.
00:10:19
Speaker
So yeah, so Visio Divina is not that, though I guess you could do that.
00:10:23
Speaker
I just don't think it'd be the most fruitful.
00:10:26
Speaker
So what you're doing is like essentially it's mostly art that has either it's a visual...
00:10:34
Speaker
Figuring of an abstract theological concept.
00:10:36
Speaker
It could be looking at, you know, sacred artwork, stained glass paintings, sculpture, what have you.
00:10:44
Speaker
And kind of looking through, like looking at the passage that goes along with it, looking at the artwork itself and just kind of sitting with and dwelling with like what is being communicated.
00:10:54
Speaker
to me in this?
00:10:55
Speaker
What do I think is true of God in this?
00:10:58
Speaker
Or like what, where, where it's just, it's, I mean, both of these practices is in a sense to give, give one
00:11:07
Speaker
a chance to just sit with something that you might just like glance over in an oral reading.
00:11:12
Speaker
Right, right.
00:11:13
Speaker
And so with Visio Divina, what I think is really interesting about what Erickson is doing is he's taking a lot of it's like theological concepts
Art's Role in Personal Growth and Perspective Shift
00:11:24
Speaker
more than stories.
00:11:24
Speaker
He has this one called the House of Belonging.
00:11:27
Speaker
That's one of my absolute favorites.
00:11:29
Speaker
And this is a depiction of
00:11:31
Speaker
the parable of the prodigal son.
00:11:33
Speaker
And what's interesting about it is like most of the parables, what's not divinely inspired are the names of the things, the headings in scripture.
00:11:42
Speaker
You know, these were just put arbitrarily to help, you know, guide the reader along.
00:11:47
Speaker
And so the parable of the parable of the prodigal is not only about the prodigal.
00:11:53
Speaker
There are two brothers in this narrative.
00:11:56
Speaker
And so, yes.
00:12:00
Speaker
And so in Scott Erickson's painting, which I can send you links that can be shared in show notes.
00:12:08
Speaker
But in this depiction, you have this house branching off to both sons.
00:12:13
Speaker
And it's really stunning what he's doing in that of looking at, I mean, what I find so meaningful.
00:12:20
Speaker
I think we harp on.
00:12:23
Speaker
the youngest son for running off and spending the money and doing it.
00:12:26
Speaker
But he came back.
00:12:27
Speaker
And then what I find so, what I have found so moving in my personal journey is that you have this older son who's doing the duty.
00:12:37
Speaker
He's doing the work.
00:12:38
Speaker
And like, so he comes in, this party's being had for his younger brother.
00:12:41
Speaker
And he's like, I've been here all along and you haven't,
00:12:44
Speaker
thrown a party for me once and the father's response and I think God's response to so many of us who are like as Robert Farmer Capon talks about in his commentary on the parable so much so many of us are trying to book keep in our faith like oh well like I don't have to earn it because grace but like I still like feel like I need to earn it instead of just being and so like as Capon says like the father and like in connection God to us
00:13:12
Speaker
is basically saying the party has been here all along for you.
00:13:15
Speaker
Right, right.
00:13:16
Speaker
Like, come on in.
00:13:18
Speaker
Like, if you want to stand out here and list off all the things you've done, that's fine.
00:13:23
Speaker
I'm going to go and enjoy this party.
00:13:25
Speaker
Sounds a little boring.
00:13:27
Speaker
Right.
00:13:27
Speaker
Like, that's on you.
00:13:28
Speaker
But, like, the doing is done.
00:13:30
Speaker
And, like, you can...
00:13:31
Speaker
you can come in like yes the fields will still need to be cared for but like please come in and rest and enjoy and so this is just so beautifully depicted in this piece of art so I don't even know how we ended up on this tangent thank you for telling me so yes if you ever get an opportunity Visio Divina is a really wonderful you know that's done in a group as well it can be done in a group it can be done it can be done on your own but it's just that's a little bit like
00:14:02
Speaker
Look at that expression on the Madonna's face.
00:14:05
Speaker
You know.
00:14:06
Speaker
So.
00:14:07
Speaker
Next time you're
Community Dynamics and Personal Growth Challenges
00:14:09
Speaker
at the Vatican Museums, you can do a whole ton.
00:14:13
Speaker
I'll do one of the next times I'm there.
00:14:14
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:14:15
Speaker
Just pop it over.
00:14:18
Speaker
Nate goes there frequently.
00:14:21
Speaker
Well, now that Leo's there, he's got more access.
00:14:25
Speaker
Because America.
00:14:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:28
Speaker
And he apparently went to school, like, in West Michigan.
00:14:31
Speaker
Yes.
00:14:32
Speaker
Yeah, the Felt Mansion used to be... What do you do with the Felt Mansion?
00:14:35
Speaker
So that used to be a... I'm...
00:14:38
Speaker
This is alleged.
00:14:39
Speaker
This is not.
00:14:40
Speaker
I'm looking at them.
00:14:41
Speaker
I'm making eye contact with the microphone again.
00:14:44
Speaker
I have such a foggy memory of taking a tour of the Felt Mansion, so I don't know the exact deal.
00:14:48
Speaker
But it used to be, you know, owned and operated by the Catholic Church.
00:14:52
Speaker
Is that right?
00:14:52
Speaker
There were nuns that dwelt there.
00:14:54
Speaker
There was, like, there was some seminary connections, which I think was at the point that he was doing things.
00:15:00
Speaker
And then it was just kind of left abandoned for a while.
00:15:02
Speaker
So now, like, now it's...
00:15:04
Speaker
a very expensive wedding venue um the only time i've been there is me and my wife she showed me there because she's from the area and we just walked around outside of it when we were invited or anything if y'all sign up for their email list sometimes they have like writer or artist nights oh cool that's how i ended up there a friend and i went and we were like the oldest by a mile like everyone else were just like retired folks
00:15:27
Speaker
And we were joking of like, maybe there will be like, maybe there will be like Oscar level gift bags.
00:15:32
Speaker
And we showed up and there were gift bags.
00:15:36
Speaker
So I now have like a felt mansion ornament and wine.
00:15:39
Speaker
And this is not relevant to anything.
00:15:41
Speaker
But yes, there is.
00:15:43
Speaker
There is now a papal connection to this place in West Michigan.
00:15:49
Speaker
So go papists.
00:15:52
Speaker
I feel like we answered the second question that I usually ask, which is how's God using art in your life?
00:15:57
Speaker
We kind of just chatted about that a little bit.
00:15:59
Speaker
Is there more you want to elaborate?
00:16:02
Speaker
Honestly, I struggled with that question a little bit.
00:16:05
Speaker
It's a hard one.
00:16:07
Speaker
I mean, just with the question under the question being how the utility of art, you know, and just thinking, like, I don't know.
00:16:16
Speaker
I was just sitting with it, and I'm like, I don't know.
00:16:19
Speaker
Like the, like, how is it being used in my life?
00:16:21
Speaker
I just kind of struggled with, but thinking a lot about like Madeline L'Engle and Walking on Water.
00:16:25
Speaker
Yes.
00:16:26
Speaker
Talks about how like art is kind of a reorienting, like we participate in it or we submit to it.
00:16:33
Speaker
And, you know, it's kind of this, this piece of like, okay,
00:16:36
Speaker
You can take from it what you will, like let it form how you're thinking about the world or like this art of like orientation or discernment, you know?
00:16:44
Speaker
So in like thinking, I was kind of like, okay, we're gonna, I'm reframing in that sense.
00:16:50
Speaker
but thinking through like i my partner and i finished watching the second season of severance i don't know i've heard of it sounds interesting i've not watched it but i haven't gotten there yet wild ride um but yeah just kind of thinking through like some different aspects of like the nature of spiritual abuse kind of in this different this context of like sure you know the workplace and
00:17:13
Speaker
So that was really interesting.
00:17:14
Speaker
Or I'm rereading Jane Austen's Emma, which used to be like my least favorite Jane Austen.
00:17:19
Speaker
Oh, really?
00:17:19
Speaker
One of.
00:17:20
Speaker
Really?
00:17:21
Speaker
And I'm loving it.
00:17:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:24
Speaker
So yeah, this kind of like just kind of thinking through like, you know, this is this is really...
00:17:28
Speaker
an exploration of community and not community of like i have all of the people i absolutely want exactly but these are the people that i have around me and like how do we how do we relate with people that you know hurt us or you know might not be like our the the like person we want to spend the most time with or whatever but we're in proximity together and so how do we honor that and still maintain relationship even after you know
00:17:53
Speaker
hurt or awkwardness has ensued.
00:17:57
Speaker
So yeah, that's been delightful to sit with.
00:18:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:01
Speaker
Have you read Chesterton talking about like community in a similar way?
The Courage of Community Engagement
00:18:06
Speaker
I haven't Chesterton, but it reminds me a lot of Bonhoeffer's life together a little bit.
00:18:10
Speaker
What about Chesterton?
00:18:12
Speaker
Well, he talks about how the real adventure of your life is right there in your house and then like your community too.
00:18:21
Speaker
But he talks about how people feel like they need to get out into the world to experience the world and become a bigger person.
00:18:28
Speaker
But really it's like, if you go out to a city, you're just gonna find a bunch of people like you.
00:18:32
Speaker
Whereas in a little community, like in Emma,
00:18:36
Speaker
You're going to come across people that are not like you and that you're going to have trouble with.
00:18:39
Speaker
And it's the really brave thing to talk to your neighbor.
00:18:43
Speaker
That's the brave thing to do.
00:18:45
Speaker
And so he's really all about...
00:18:47
Speaker
Not like big and branching out, but being small and like being within the area that you are and appreciating the beauty and the life, the vibrancy that's right there.
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:58
Speaker
That's interesting.
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:00
Speaker
That's rich.
00:19:01
Speaker
I, yeah.
00:19:01
Speaker
And I feel like, I don't know, almost counter cultural, I guess, in a, in a way of, I feel like there's a tendency to,
00:19:12
Speaker
We like curate everything I feel like in our lives in the modern day.
00:19:16
Speaker
And so I feel like we can easily curate our friendships as well.
00:19:21
Speaker
But I think it's really important to have those different challenging friendships, even though they come with pain.
00:19:27
Speaker
But I think for any rich friendship, you have to kind of just, that's going to happen at some point.
00:19:33
Speaker
And you have to be able to know how to take that and just move forward.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:38
Speaker
Yeah, that's great.
00:19:40
Speaker
Is there anything
Consistency in Creative Nonfiction Writing
00:19:41
Speaker
that you are working on artistically right now?
00:19:43
Speaker
You mentioned you're doing a lot of nonfiction and essay work.
00:19:47
Speaker
Is that the bulk of your time right now?
00:19:50
Speaker
At this point, yes.
00:19:53
Speaker
I am primarily right now, I've been getting a sub stack off the ground.
00:19:58
Speaker
So just trying to play with getting things out at a regular interval.
00:20:02
Speaker
So monthly essays, did I skip this month?
00:20:05
Speaker
Yes.
00:20:06
Speaker
We skipped last week with the podcast.
00:20:08
Speaker
This is, this is, this is.
00:20:09
Speaker
Did you notice?
00:20:11
Speaker
We didn't.
00:20:13
Speaker
You saved them up to binge them all.
00:20:15
Speaker
I think my mom noticed.
00:20:17
Speaker
Did she?
00:20:17
Speaker
Sweet.
00:20:18
Speaker
That's great.
00:20:19
Speaker
She's a faithful listener.
00:20:20
Speaker
That's sweet.
00:20:21
Speaker
It's not.
00:20:22
Speaker
Plus mothers.
00:20:23
Speaker
They are great.
00:20:23
Speaker
Yeah, you always have one person looking at your thing.
00:20:27
Speaker
I tell that to my actors.
00:20:28
Speaker
I'm like, you need the young actors that I work with.
00:20:31
Speaker
I'm like, you've got to be on your A game.
00:20:33
Speaker
Because I know that at least your mom is going to watch only you throughout this entire show.
00:20:37
Speaker
That's right.
00:20:37
Speaker
There's all this stuff going on.
00:20:40
Speaker
You're over in the corner.
00:20:41
Speaker
She's watching you.
00:20:42
Speaker
So I'm like, you better be in character.
00:20:44
Speaker
Yes.
00:20:45
Speaker
I joke with authors when Amazon reviews start coming in.
00:20:50
Speaker
And so it's not uncommon for a new author just to be like, I got a one-star review and I'm like,
00:20:56
Speaker
That's amazing because actually if you have only five stars, that looks like your mom and her book club, you know, led the charge.
00:21:04
Speaker
And so this has legitimacy.
00:21:05
Speaker
It's good to have a couple, one, two, three stars.
00:21:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's like somebody is like, it wasn't someone's tea, but it was someone else's.
00:21:12
Speaker
You know, that makes it, it makes it a real book.
00:21:14
Speaker
It's not just the book your mom and her friends are like, oh my gosh.
00:21:18
Speaker
they're so precious and they did the things and he actually like reads it and you know yeah it's great not that moms don't and not that mom's mom's opinions are important they are in this saturday before mother's day when this is being that's true moms are important um but yeah
00:21:35
Speaker
Thanks mom.
00:21:38
Speaker
So yeah,
Community Critique in Artistic Development
00:21:39
Speaker
not to say that like their moms can also have criticism, but you know, for the most part, like having a support base of like your key community, but also knowing that like not everyone in your community is going to jive with the same things.
00:21:51
Speaker
Like there are things that, you know, I'm not going to agree with a hundred percent.
00:21:56
Speaker
There are things like across this table that we are not going to agree with one another on.
00:22:00
Speaker
And, but still that like relationship comes out of that.
00:22:05
Speaker
And I think that we're so easy to just be like, oh, well, that was uncomfortable or whatever.
00:22:11
Speaker
And I don't need to be, I don't need to sit with what makes me uncomfortable, which I think is really artistically concerning, but also societally.
00:22:22
Speaker
Well, one of the compelling things, I'm very off topic now, but I love it.
00:22:27
Speaker
This is great.
00:22:29
Speaker
One of the things that I found most compelling about when we did Godspell and putting Jesus in a modern context was how different can I make the disciples?
Unity and Diversity in the Digital Christian Community
00:22:40
Speaker
Oh, the shirt.
00:22:40
Speaker
Dressed accordingly.
00:22:41
Speaker
God's back.
00:22:42
Speaker
I did God's back.
00:22:44
Speaker
It was like, how different can you make these disciples?
00:22:46
Speaker
Because in his context, you've got, you have two ends of the spectrum with a zealot and a tax collector.
00:22:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:53
Speaker
It's like one would literally be killing the other.
00:22:57
Speaker
Yes.
00:22:58
Speaker
And yet Jesus is like, I want you to follow me.
00:23:02
Speaker
You, the specific person that you are.
00:23:04
Speaker
And I also want you to not kill this person and love them because they're also great and valuable, you know, and people's brains can short circuit at that.
00:23:14
Speaker
But I am like,
00:23:16
Speaker
we need to not be so compartmentalized as the body of Christ.
00:23:21
Speaker
Let's let Jesus be this unifying force in our communities.
00:23:26
Speaker
And obviously there's truth and some disagreements are more important than others, right?
00:23:32
Speaker
But you need to, I think, be able to say we are still Christ's
00:23:39
Speaker
people and he can bring us together even though we do vary in how we do things and what we think about these things.
00:23:48
Speaker
That's powerful in that way.
00:23:51
Speaker
There's a curiosity that I think we lack in bringing to that.
00:23:56
Speaker
Because I may be a zealot, let's burn it all down.
00:24:01
Speaker
But at the end of the day, this tax collector is my brother.
00:24:06
Speaker
How can I be curious about where they're at?
00:24:09
Speaker
And this isn't to say in our modern context that it's not...
00:24:13
Speaker
you know, appropriate to, you know, ask questions where, like, concern may be.
00:24:18
Speaker
No, right.
00:24:19
Speaker
But, like, what is it for that to be a question rather than a condemnation and for letting curiosity be part of that?
00:24:25
Speaker
Because the other, the thing we miss out of that is...
00:24:29
Speaker
Joseph Ratzinger or Pope Benedict.
00:24:33
Speaker
You're close with him.
00:24:33
Speaker
Depending on what you want to go.
00:24:35
Speaker
No, like he wrote this.
00:24:36
Speaker
He wrote this when he was Carl Ratzinger.
00:24:39
Speaker
Pre-papal as opposed to papal or post-papal.
00:24:43
Speaker
One of the few people has a post-papal period.
00:24:45
Speaker
Post-papal is fun to say.
00:24:46
Speaker
Post-papal.
00:24:47
Speaker
It just rolls off the tongue.
00:24:48
Speaker
It's like sending a letter to the Pope.
00:24:53
Speaker
papal post this should be his newsletter it should okay we have a chance to do things forget encyclical papal post okay i'm so sorry i'm not fully catholic and so pardoned pardoned to any any dear catholic brothers and sisters um we're very excited about a new pope we are he seems very cool yes yes um i've seen many complaints about him being a white socks fan but that's that's between him and the lord
00:25:21
Speaker
So, anyways.
00:25:22
Speaker
Again, differences and unity in Christ.
00:25:25
Speaker
We can come together even with different sports teams.
00:25:27
Speaker
If Chicago can do it, so can the rest of us.
00:25:29
Speaker
Yes.
00:25:31
Speaker
But with, with, um, so in, um, Ratzinger's introduction to Christianity is, which is, if you haven't read it is, is a book in which he breaks down each line of the creed is a different chapter in this book.
00:25:44
Speaker
It's really lovely.
00:25:45
Speaker
Apostles creed.
00:25:47
Speaker
And so he has in the chapter about, you know, one holy apostolic and Catholic church, um, is talking about how we all,
00:25:58
Speaker
hold a different piece of who God is, both in our image-bearing nature, but also in our life experiences.
00:26:05
Speaker
Like God is revealing himself to each of us uniquely and that it takes all of us to kind of grant one another a bigger vision of who God is.
00:26:15
Speaker
Like not one person can hold, you know, a vision of the almighty.
00:26:20
Speaker
And so like, this is where like I, with my, my Baptist roots kind of now in this Anglican
00:26:26
Speaker
Circle grew up with this kind of like, Catholics aren't real Christians.
00:26:31
Speaker
And where it's like, I think we all have grown up with some sort of like, you should be suspicious of this little sect of whatever.
00:26:36
Speaker
And it's one thing if there's something heretical going on, but that's not necessarily what's happening.
00:26:43
Speaker
We've had theological disagreements that have splintered off the bride.
00:26:47
Speaker
And so what is it instead to hold curiosity for what is the vision of God that you might bring
00:26:54
Speaker
to the table here we may not agree with like the outworkings of or or not even like agree with but there might be some discomfort in the way i you know express in a worship setting or or live feel that this is the proper conviction to live out something theological from what someone else is doing so what is it instead to be curious and i think with that we ultimately have a more compelling narrative than what we're seeing
00:27:21
Speaker
in the present context.
00:27:23
Speaker
And I can swing this back around to digital stuff.
00:27:26
Speaker
Oh yeah, I'm already thinking, I'm like, I'm like this, I think,
00:27:31
Speaker
This is a compelling sort of call on the Christian life, right?
00:27:35
Speaker
We all sort of have, we as the body of Christ as brothers and sisters have our bedrock, which is Christ and our belief in his death and resurrection and what he's done.
00:27:47
Speaker
And then we have little disagreements about the Eucharist and what we think is happening there.
00:27:53
Speaker
Church authority and how we think God set that up and all of that.
00:27:57
Speaker
But ultimately, if God wanted to rule through a pope or a bishop versus if he wanted to rule the church through an elder board, I don't think you're going to go to hell one way or the other.
00:28:12
Speaker
Unless you're like highly idolizing one over the other.
00:28:15
Speaker
But then I think your issue is beyond your belief in how the truth should be governed.
00:28:20
Speaker
But the digital world, in my experience, I feel like almost is quite counter to that call in my experience of it.
Digital Platforms' Impact on Personal Formation
00:28:32
Speaker
And we can unpack that more.
00:28:34
Speaker
But I feel like just with the way that social media thrives off of
00:28:40
Speaker
reactions and getting you engaged with something which often means a negative engagement.
00:28:47
Speaker
Hot takes.
00:28:48
Speaker
Hot takes or only the ability to do short little tweets or responses or 30-second videos.
00:28:57
Speaker
Well, fine, they blow up my intellectual point.
00:29:02
Speaker
But it just runs so counter to that where we're sort of born into this cultural stream now that
00:29:10
Speaker
automatically tries to divide us into these segments and automatically tries to get us to plant our flag on this really tiny little hill that doesn't need to be a lot to get over, you know, and doesn't need to be a big issue.
00:29:29
Speaker
But we plant it and now all the comments are flying, you know?
00:29:34
Speaker
And I really like what I found so disquieting.
00:29:37
Speaker
So further context for anyone listening for y'all.
00:29:42
Speaker
So I was freelancing for a marketing firm that was focused specifically on working with Christian publishers, authors and nonprofits.
00:29:51
Speaker
And so to have a book published, I know this also happens in the theater sphere a lot of times with visual artists as well.
00:29:59
Speaker
You are supposed to be building a platform in order for people to find your work.
00:30:04
Speaker
And I do not think platform in and of itself is a terrible thing.
00:30:09
Speaker
I think there's plenty of people who are like, platform's awful, no one should have it.
00:30:13
Speaker
And like, fair, there's a lot of broken stuff connected to amassing
00:30:20
Speaker
you know, folks into oneself.
00:30:22
Speaker
And we can get into that if we'd like.
00:30:25
Speaker
But I mean, to stick, to hold myself to a linear thought, I just found myself so disquieted by some of the assumptions or some of the actions that were being taken for the sake of promoting one's
00:30:39
Speaker
creative work.
00:30:41
Speaker
And so really, like, as one does when one's bothered by something, I applied to grad school.
00:30:47
Speaker
And I don't recommend that being the first step, but that was mine.
00:30:55
Speaker
You should write an angry Facebook post instead.
00:30:58
Speaker
No, you shouldn't.
00:31:01
Speaker
No, it's cheaper.
00:31:03
Speaker
The damage is irreparable.
00:31:07
Speaker
But I just I found myself really bothered by kind of the binary that we sit in.
00:31:14
Speaker
I'd be there like it's good or it's bad.
00:31:16
Speaker
It's like two things can be true at once.
00:31:17
Speaker
Like people like people can show up in a digital space.
00:31:22
Speaker
in a way that is not helpful, in a way that is divisive.
00:31:25
Speaker
And also like some of the way that these, these, you know, websites and algorithms are formed is not for the sake of human flourishing.
00:31:35
Speaker
So it is, but also what is it to like back up and actually look at what is going on in that space?
00:31:42
Speaker
What is going on with me?
00:31:44
Speaker
Like, what do I think about the world and how does that then inform how I engage?
00:31:48
Speaker
in that digital space.
00:31:50
Speaker
Because like, I mean, John, as you've alluded to, there's limits to an internet space.
00:31:54
Speaker
So like, let's use Instagram as an example of, I can look at someone's profile, I can read through posts,
00:32:10
Speaker
and I can feel like I have an affinity for that person, but that is not that person.
00:32:15
Speaker
It is an avatar of that person.
00:32:19
Speaker
There are limits to the form of that.
00:32:21
Speaker
In art, we talk about form a lot.
00:32:25
Speaker
You're working with visual form, you're working with theater written form.
00:32:30
Speaker
the form of the internet has its limits just like any other piece of media um and in that i think that we we think about the limits of art a lot of times we don't think about the limits of media um in terms of like the media we engage because you know social media is interesting because you're both like a maker and a participant you know and so i i can only you know tweet
00:32:57
Speaker
280 characters unless I pay more.
00:33:00
Speaker
I can only, you know, I can only, you know, share a link for and have the algorithm send it so far before it's like, you're taking people off of Facebook, you know, like there's, there are these limits to this thing, but also this is something that is ultimately like dehumanizing us as people, as limits of this form.
00:33:18
Speaker
Um, and so it's, it's interesting to think that like, if I read,
00:33:23
Speaker
a post that I don't agree with that gets my, if not my physical blood pressure, my metaphysical blood pressure real high.
00:33:32
Speaker
I am more quick to assume that the individual posting that is not coming to this complexly, as opposed to me who is coming to this complexly, because I live within myself and I know all the complex thoughts and feelings that I have, as opposed to believing that we're all dynamic,
00:33:53
Speaker
We all have a context that's feeding into this and that like, yes, I have blind spots and wrong assumptions, just like this individual has blind spots and wrong assumptions.
00:34:03
Speaker
And we're just living in a day and age.
00:34:05
Speaker
We're just blasting that out.
00:34:07
Speaker
And again, that posture of curiosity, but I think also that posture of recognizing that this is not a neutral space for
00:34:15
Speaker
So how am I thinking about how I'm engaging?
00:34:17
Speaker
How am I thinking about what's happening here?
00:34:19
Speaker
And the fact that like, we cannot bring our full complex selves.
00:34:23
Speaker
to a profile.
00:34:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:27
Speaker
And so what's the benefit of the doubt there?
00:34:29
Speaker
What's the charitable reading there?
00:34:32
Speaker
Yes, there are people posting terribly un-Christlike things all the time.
00:34:38
Speaker
And that's just part of living in a society.
00:34:40
Speaker
Yes.
00:34:41
Speaker
As the Joker would say.
00:34:45
Speaker
But also, like, how does, you know, my own ethic and my own convictions, like, how is that impacting how I'm showing up in that space?
00:34:58
Speaker
Whether sharing work as a creative or just as someone taking in
00:35:03
Speaker
work in that space.
Dehumanization by Digital Technology
00:35:05
Speaker
There's a really wonderful book.
00:35:08
Speaker
Well, first of all, if anybody, I don't know if you've seen the documentary on Netflix called The Social Dilemma.
00:35:13
Speaker
Not yet.
00:35:14
Speaker
I say years after it's come out.
00:35:17
Speaker
I was going to tonight, but I got booked.
00:35:20
Speaker
Let me spoil it.
00:35:21
Speaker
You don't have to know.
00:35:22
Speaker
It's really, it's worth the time.
00:35:25
Speaker
And I found it to be really helpful because it released just as I was starting my dissertation work.
00:35:30
Speaker
So it was really nice to just be like, oh, hello, Scottish academic who doesn't really know much about the internet.
00:35:35
Speaker
Have you seen this thing?
00:35:36
Speaker
This is what I'm talking about.
00:35:38
Speaker
So it was very handy for me in that regard.
00:35:41
Speaker
But it is, I believe it is very much worth the time.
00:35:46
Speaker
Even now, it is still relevant.
00:35:47
Speaker
It's become more relevant.
00:35:50
Speaker
But this whole piece that algorithms are not neutral, your attention is deeply valuable.
00:35:58
Speaker
And also, Jaron Lehner, who is a tech philosopher, talks about a lot of people walked away from this documentary with this thing of like, oh, well, if the product's free, you are actually the product.
00:36:11
Speaker
And that would be your attention.
00:36:12
Speaker
And he makes a statement in the documentary
00:36:14
Speaker
that um it's actually not your attention that it's not you that's the product it's that one degree of change that can be made in you as as a consumer of something there's there's that formational element
00:36:30
Speaker
And I mean, coming out of, you know, an Augustinian bent, like, where is my orientation?
00:36:36
Speaker
Where's the orientation of my loves?
00:36:38
Speaker
Am I letting that?
00:36:39
Speaker
Am I letting this digital space orient my loves?
00:36:44
Speaker
Or am I cognizant of how this is trying to orient me and able to step in?
00:36:50
Speaker
already knowing how I want my loves to be oriented.
00:36:54
Speaker
Right.
00:36:55
Speaker
So, yes, he has a wonderful book called You Are Not a Gadget.
00:36:59
Speaker
It has like the first chapter is absolutely fantastic.
00:37:03
Speaker
Just about like technology is trying to dehumanize you.
00:37:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:06
Speaker
Social media is trying to reduce.
00:37:08
Speaker
your humanity by, because like, if you're, if you're coming, if you're building up this platform, that's not complex, then you're, you're going to engage not complexly.
00:37:19
Speaker
Right.
00:37:19
Speaker
And I think that being cognizant of that being the push allows us the freedom to push back because we know, we see how the game is being played and we can do something very different.
00:37:35
Speaker
in that space both in the way we engage and then also the way like as creatives we get to enter into that space so i'd like to hear more about your thoughts about your perspective of like authors and having a platform um my my wife has written a children's book that i'm working on illustrating and would like to do something with it eventually and but we know there's that part of you know you have to
00:38:03
Speaker
a mass following and it seems like frustrating because those are like different skills right being an author and being a social media person yeah and so what are your thoughts about that and any like guidelines or pitfalls in that yes
00:38:21
Speaker
So for anyone who is not familiar with like the way publishing works, I'm a marketer in the publishing industry with one of the big five publishers.
00:38:32
Speaker
And
Art vs. Marketing in Publishing
00:38:34
Speaker
so like I am looking at people's platforms all the time and like having to sit there and be like, OK, is this is this a valid platform or is this something that we can do something with?
00:38:44
Speaker
And like the what's.
00:38:46
Speaker
What's under that is a little bit of publishing history.
00:38:51
Speaker
Back in the day before authors were expected to also be marketers or influencers for their own work, which is a different skill set, as you point out.
00:39:04
Speaker
So it was kind of like you would write the book, someone would edit the book, and then a sales guy would go out physically,
00:39:10
Speaker
to bookstores with a print catalog and be like what do you want to buy to sell to your customers yeah but i ask you when is the last time you ordered something from a catalog a physical catalog and also i looked at a catalog when i was a child well i remember going to the the jc penny catalog store there wasn't any material you just like placed your catalog order um yeah no more those don't exist um does jc penny still exist i don't
00:39:39
Speaker
I don't know.
00:39:41
Speaker
The fact that we're sitting here questioning this tells us something.
00:39:44
Speaker
We're right here.
00:39:45
Speaker
Right, right, right.
00:39:46
Speaker
Because Sears doesn't.
00:39:48
Speaker
When did that happen?
00:39:49
Speaker
The fact that there's ambiguity and this like speaks something about like the reality of where we're at.
00:39:55
Speaker
Okay.
00:39:56
Speaker
Also, like when is the last time you walked into, you know, a shop to, you need some random thing for the house.
00:40:04
Speaker
When is the last time you walk into a shop and go, hey, what do I need for this?
00:40:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:09
Speaker
You know, I've always done all my research beforehand.
00:40:11
Speaker
And then I put in my earbuds and I'm like, time to listen to a podcast.
00:40:15
Speaker
I wonder if somebody is doing this right now.
00:40:17
Speaker
And I'm like, time to go get what I need.
00:40:19
Speaker
Are you looking at a ruler?
00:40:21
Speaker
If you're walking through right now, if you're walking through clothes, we're grateful for you listening.
00:40:26
Speaker
Um,
00:40:27
Speaker
But maybe just ask somebody because you might have been in there for half an hour and they might be able to give it to you.
00:40:32
Speaker
You'll have a good human experience.
00:40:33
Speaker
No, I'm the big proponent of going on the website.
00:40:36
Speaker
And sometimes if you put in the location, they'll tell you exactly what aisle it's on.
00:40:40
Speaker
But also, I mean, you think about these are default habits when we're looking for material.
00:40:47
Speaker
And because societal behavior has changed, the way that marketing happens
00:40:53
Speaker
has had to change.
00:40:54
Speaker
And so suddenly like the marketing person just used to put together like, this is what the catalog says and this is what the cover looks like.
00:41:00
Speaker
Whereas like now that role is kind of shifted in the publishing industry where now like marketers are really driving
00:41:07
Speaker
the sales piece and the salesperson is just taking the call from various larger retailers or organizations for like, oh yeah, you want that many?
00:41:15
Speaker
We'll do that.
00:41:17
Speaker
And so with that, how that has shifted for the author then is the author has to be hands on because people want to know about the material before they jump in.
00:41:26
Speaker
They don't have just the trust of
00:41:28
Speaker
their local book retailer, which if you have a local bookseller that you love, like buy from them, buy local.
00:41:37
Speaker
I did that yesterday.
00:41:38
Speaker
Oh my gosh.
00:41:39
Speaker
Good work.
00:41:40
Speaker
And like, I think it's absolutely beautiful to have relationships with the booksellers at your local bookstores and just getting to know like what's coming out.
00:41:47
Speaker
What do you recommend?
00:41:48
Speaker
Is this actually worth my time?
00:41:50
Speaker
These are great conversations to have.
00:41:51
Speaker
They're just rarer to have.
00:41:53
Speaker
Right.
00:41:53
Speaker
But also for the,
00:41:56
Speaker
for individuals looking for materials, like we're looking for like the endorsements of our friends or public figures we trust or what have you.
00:42:07
Speaker
And as a marketer for every book I work on, I don't have those relational connections to get that for.
00:42:13
Speaker
every writer on every topic.
00:42:15
Speaker
Right.
00:42:15
Speaker
Um, and so that's kind of where like the platform need has emerged is understanding that that artist has a relationship with us.
00:42:27
Speaker
They have a sphere of influence, um, that their publisher does not have access to.
00:42:32
Speaker
Um, and so the publisher also has a sphere of influence that they can share with
00:42:37
Speaker
a writer and together like those things hopefully both worked together well to just be like hey this is a book it exists you can buy it um and so like in and of itself it makes sense it's not a bad thing but there's all of these thorny little things that can go along with it so there's this book that was quite i believe is still quite popular called platform by michael hyatt um
00:43:03
Speaker
I have big problems with this book.
00:43:06
Speaker
Don't write that down.
00:43:07
Speaker
Don't make it mad.
00:43:07
Speaker
I just put the writing down.
00:43:10
Speaker
Never mind.
00:43:11
Speaker
But no, he has this statement of like, you know, I can agree with him on...
00:43:17
Speaker
the point of like you know we used to have to stand on stages for people to you know get information um but he has the statement where he's like and stages used to be built of wood or stone now these stages are built of people and i find this so utterly i've never grown on top of a person before
00:43:38
Speaker
I've done a lot of theater.
00:43:39
Speaker
You maybe shouldn't try.
00:43:41
Speaker
I find it disturbing.
00:43:43
Speaker
Like the visual that was in my mind instantly was in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.
00:43:48
Speaker
There's the statue when the Death Eaters have taken over the Ministry of Magic.
00:43:52
Speaker
where it's like these two wizards on top of the corpses of all of these muggles.
00:43:57
Speaker
Like it feels like this utilizing, like this exploitation of people in a way that like, if we believe in the human dignity of our fellow man, like maybe I shouldn't exploit them just to fulfill my creative ambitions.
00:44:14
Speaker
Yeah, like I thought you were going to say like, now this stage is social media.
00:44:19
Speaker
He could have said that.
00:44:21
Speaker
That makes sense.
00:44:22
Speaker
Oh, that's not what he said.
00:44:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:24
Speaker
Well, then there's also something I feel like dehumanizing to you about that.
00:44:28
Speaker
If your goal is just, I'd like to get my book out of in front of people, which anybody who's written wants to do, is desperate to do, then there's like this Faustian bargain of like, okay, I'm going to sell my soul to climb up all these people I'm taking advantage of.
00:44:47
Speaker
Completely.
00:44:48
Speaker
And it forms you into something else.
00:44:51
Speaker
Exactly, exactly.
00:44:52
Speaker
And so like you understand why I had to apply for a graduate program to solve the problem.
00:44:58
Speaker
We've been talking about this for 20 minutes.
00:45:00
Speaker
That would be too long for a Facebook post.
00:45:02
Speaker
So yes, so with this in mind, like this, I found this so like troublesome that like we're asking people to do that, especially artists of faith who are trying to like, you know, kind of reconcile with things of the divine.
00:45:20
Speaker
And we're asking you to like deny the divine nature in your fellow man in order to put something out.
00:45:27
Speaker
Like it just, it does not, it doesn't work.
00:45:30
Speaker
And also like it does not work.
00:45:33
Speaker
And also people need to be able to find things.
00:45:36
Speaker
what you're doing in order to partake of it.
00:45:41
Speaker
You know, it's, and so this is the thing, two things can be true at the same time.
00:45:45
Speaker
And so how do we move forward?
00:45:48
Speaker
And so, so many authors that I work with are just like, I don't want to be, I don't want to be self-promotional.
00:45:54
Speaker
And you think that there's, there's a difference.
00:45:56
Speaker
And I, if we want to go down the rabbit hole, I'm happy to go down the rabbit hole on all of that.
00:46:04
Speaker
But to complete the circle here, see if I can do it.
00:46:08
Speaker
I believe it.
00:46:08
Speaker
It's still there.
00:46:11
Speaker
OK, so I have a friend who is a ghostwriter and a freelance editor.
00:46:17
Speaker
Andy Rogers, if you need a ghost writer, he's good at what he does.
00:46:21
Speaker
Not really into ghost stories, but okay.
00:46:23
Speaker
Great.
00:46:23
Speaker
Yeah, that's totally what's going on.
00:46:27
Speaker
So he's excellent at what he does, but he had said back in his, he in a previous life was also a book marketer and had talked about like that Paul was a tent maker.
00:46:36
Speaker
And how did people know that Paul was a tent maker?
00:46:39
Speaker
Right.
00:46:39
Speaker
He had to tell people that.
00:46:41
Speaker
he was a tent maker and this is how he you know got around this is how he funded you know the mission this is how he traveled from place to place like a lot of the church was built because people needed tents from paul and like if they didn't know that he was doing this he wouldn't have gotten anywhere right you know and so there's there's that piece of it but also like that's a different skill set
00:47:08
Speaker
than, you know, shepherding
Authenticity in Digital Engagement
00:47:11
Speaker
a church.
00:47:11
Speaker
Right, right.
00:47:12
Speaker
You know, marketing your book is a different skill set than writing the book.
00:47:16
Speaker
It's probably Barnabas doing that stuff, right?
00:47:18
Speaker
The pastoring side or the tent side?
00:47:20
Speaker
No, no, the marketing.
00:47:21
Speaker
Oh, the marketing.
00:47:22
Speaker
I understand.
00:47:23
Speaker
I missed it completely.
00:47:24
Speaker
I was like, are you saying Paul didn't make tents?
00:47:27
Speaker
No, he made them.
00:47:28
Speaker
But then Barnabas.
00:47:29
Speaker
And then Barnabas.
00:47:31
Speaker
He sold him.
00:47:32
Speaker
Sold him.
00:47:32
Speaker
We needed him.
00:47:33
Speaker
Come get your tents here.
00:47:34
Speaker
And the gospel will save your soul and keep you warm at night.
00:47:39
Speaker
Pretty good.
00:47:41
Speaker
Thanks.
00:47:43
Speaker
The Aramaic was spot on.
00:47:45
Speaker
I have a bachelor's in ministry.
00:47:50
Speaker
Did that help you develop the transatlantic accent for Barnabas?
00:47:54
Speaker
Yes.
00:47:55
Speaker
It's great.
00:47:56
Speaker
That was what most of my focus was.
00:47:58
Speaker
Transatlantic ministry.
00:48:00
Speaker
Yes.
00:48:04
Speaker
No, that's fascinating, though.
00:48:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:08
Speaker
How do you... This is a huge question.
00:48:11
Speaker
How do you do that?
00:48:13
Speaker
How do you do that help me?
00:48:14
Speaker
Because I feel that tension a lot, I think, especially with Artists of the Way stuff.
00:48:21
Speaker
You know, it's a podcast.
00:48:22
Speaker
You'd like people to listen to the podcast.
00:48:23
Speaker
You'd like people to come see Godspell.
00:48:26
Speaker
And I think that's just the era we're in with artists, as we've been saying.
00:48:29
Speaker
It's sort of this... The digital platform is the platform where it feels like we have to...
00:48:35
Speaker
put out the work, but I can see it always trying to pull me in.
00:48:42
Speaker
How do you engage with that without letting it form you into something not human?
00:48:50
Speaker
And how do you
00:48:52
Speaker
How do you fight back against that and maybe make something that is better for those who are engaging with it?
00:48:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:00
Speaker
Okay.
00:49:01
Speaker
We're going to go on a little journey here.
00:49:02
Speaker
Okay.
00:49:03
Speaker
Let's get that tent that you bought from Paul.
00:49:05
Speaker
Yes.
00:49:07
Speaker
That Pauline tent.
00:49:08
Speaker
Everybody talks about the Pauline theology.
00:49:12
Speaker
That just sounds like a good brand of tent, Pauline.
00:49:14
Speaker
That's true.
00:49:15
Speaker
Pauline of Tents.
00:49:17
Speaker
Okay, hang on.
00:49:17
Speaker
Before we jump on this little journey, you could just make this little camping gear business, and you could put most of the funds to charity.
00:49:28
Speaker
How has someone not done this?
00:49:30
Speaker
Pauline Tents.
00:49:31
Speaker
Pauline Tents.
00:49:32
Speaker
Pauline Lanterns.
00:49:33
Speaker
You know, just all this campground.
00:49:35
Speaker
Ladies and gentlemen, free ideas.
00:49:37
Speaker
Free ideas.
00:49:37
Speaker
Take it across.
00:49:38
Speaker
I haven't copyrighted this.
00:49:39
Speaker
Anybody who loves camping gear, Mom, I know you like camping gear.
00:49:43
Speaker
Imagine Pauline camping gear.
00:49:47
Speaker
So.
00:49:47
Speaker
Yes.
00:49:48
Speaker
Okay.
00:49:49
Speaker
So.
00:49:49
Speaker
Lied with truth.
00:49:50
Speaker
Yes.
00:49:57
Speaker
Okay.
00:49:59
Speaker
Good joke.
00:50:00
Speaker
Nice work.
00:50:00
Speaker
Nice work.
00:50:02
Speaker
Anyway, yes.
00:50:02
Speaker
Yes.
00:50:03
Speaker
Yes.
00:50:03
Speaker
Okay.
00:50:06
Speaker
Marshall McLuhan.
00:50:07
Speaker
Okay.
00:50:08
Speaker
Not Paul.
00:50:08
Speaker
Marshall McLuhan is a Canadian media philosopher converted to Catholicism.
00:50:14
Speaker
Faith really intersected a lot of what he was doing, but probably what he's most famous for is the phrase, the medium is the message.
00:50:21
Speaker
Ah, yes.
00:50:22
Speaker
I've heard that message.
00:50:23
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:50:24
Speaker
People have gotten that.
00:50:26
Speaker
And so with that, in the book that he is talking about this, which I have in my bag over there, it has a title.
00:50:34
Speaker
One more minute.
00:50:35
Speaker
Grab it.
00:50:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:37
Speaker
All right.
00:50:39
Speaker
So yes, Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan.
00:50:44
Speaker
He drops this.
00:50:45
Speaker
She didn't want us to see it.
00:50:49
Speaker
I'm not Phantom White.
00:50:53
Speaker
I'm hand modeled only casually.
00:50:57
Speaker
So, Marshall McLuhan, he has this phrase, medium is the message.
00:51:01
Speaker
But with that, he talks about when we're taking in media, a lot of times it's an extension of the human body.
00:51:09
Speaker
So right now, like this podcast for the three of us is an extension of our voice.
00:51:15
Speaker
For the listener taking it in, like they're extending their ears in a Roman and countrymen kind of way.
00:51:23
Speaker
You know, like when we're taking in something, like if I'm posting something, I'm also lending my voice that way.
00:51:30
Speaker
We're extending our human sensory faculties.
00:51:34
Speaker
It's like a weapon, but not as violent, where that's like an extension of your arm or a tool.
00:51:40
Speaker
It's a zero violence media weapon.
00:51:42
Speaker
Or like a tool.
00:51:43
Speaker
Like a plunger.
00:51:43
Speaker
Like a hoe.
00:51:44
Speaker
Yeah, or a plunger.
00:51:47
Speaker
I don't know why ho's the tool that I picked.
00:51:49
Speaker
Let's move on.
00:51:50
Speaker
It's extending another.
00:51:53
Speaker
So, yes.
Media's Role in Extending Human Identity
00:51:54
Speaker
So, in hopes that this is not an extension of human excrement, but instead of human discourse.
00:52:02
Speaker
Don't be a savage review.
00:52:04
Speaker
If you hate this podcast, please leave a review that says this is just an extension of human excrement.
00:52:09
Speaker
Because that would be amazing.
00:52:10
Speaker
That would be pretty good.
00:52:11
Speaker
Right?
00:52:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:52:13
Speaker
I did.
00:52:14
Speaker
I did write.
00:52:14
Speaker
This is a complete footnote.
00:52:16
Speaker
But in one of my grad papers, I was writing a theological exploration.
00:52:21
Speaker
We had to choose a piece of art to do a theological critique of.
00:52:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:52:26
Speaker
So I was reading Daniel Nairi's Everything Sad is Untrue.
00:52:29
Speaker
Oh, well, my wife read that recently.
00:52:31
Speaker
It's on my list.
00:52:31
Speaker
I haven't read it yet.
00:52:32
Speaker
It's so good.
00:52:34
Speaker
He has, I don't know if she talked about this, but there are these like interspersing poop narratives at like key emotional low points in the story.
00:52:43
Speaker
Like the story is like it's a 12 year old boy who's telling his life story as a refugee who has come from Iran.
00:52:50
Speaker
to Oklahoma in the 90s.
00:52:52
Speaker
And so he's telling the story like a middle school boy.
00:52:57
Speaker
There's lots of tangents.
00:52:59
Speaker
It's very circular in nature.
00:53:02
Speaker
So it also kind of mirrors Persian story structure, which is fascinating.
00:53:07
Speaker
But he has these poop stories that I think are doing something very significant.
00:53:11
Speaker
And I wrote this in a paper and I wrote it for the professor is like a leading eschatologist.
00:53:17
Speaker
And so like I like to think that since I wrote her a theological treatise on poop that this makes me the world's first theological scatologist.
00:53:27
Speaker
So take with that what you will.
00:53:29
Speaker
End footnote, Marshall McLuhan, extensions of the human through media.
00:53:37
Speaker
We don't exist in, without a context as humans.
00:53:41
Speaker
And so this is, this is where I was taking his thought and trying to extend this.
00:53:45
Speaker
Like my
00:53:46
Speaker
Dear lovely supervisor was like, this is original thought really park right here.
00:53:51
Speaker
So this is my original thought.
00:53:52
Speaker
Okay.
00:53:54
Speaker
Um, so we, we exist in a context, like, yes, in this podcast, we are, you know, trying to extend our voices.
00:54:01
Speaker
for the conversation for people who want to participate in that pair socially, but we're doing it in a room.
00:54:06
Speaker
We're sitting at a table.
00:54:07
Speaker
This is the setting in which we're doing this.
00:54:10
Speaker
When we're taking in media, we're doing it within a context of our locality and our daily lives.
00:54:16
Speaker
And so what I think to echo, this is a journey, so we're coming back around.
00:54:21
Speaker
So you asked me, how do we do this well as believers?
00:54:24
Speaker
I think really it comes from the posture of what
00:54:30
Speaker
location.
00:54:31
Speaker
are we extending when we are extending our media?
00:54:35
Speaker
Am I doing this?
00:54:36
Speaker
If I have a book, am I actually extending a used car lot of like, hey, buy my book.
00:54:42
Speaker
It's gonna do X, Y, Z for you.
00:54:44
Speaker
I'm gonna try and like strong arm you into purchasing this thing.
00:54:48
Speaker
Or am I doing it from a stage of like, hello, look at what I've done.
00:54:53
Speaker
This is why you need to be part of this.
00:54:55
Speaker
Let me try and persuade you into this.
00:54:57
Speaker
Or what I think is the most healthy
00:55:00
Speaker
context to extend is my living room.
00:55:03
Speaker
I was wondering if you'd say that.
00:55:05
Speaker
That's nice.
00:55:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:06
Speaker
And so like, am I inviting you in to come sit with me?
00:55:10
Speaker
Not as, not as an expert, not as someone trying to schlep something, but someone that's just here as a peer who has created something for us.
00:55:18
Speaker
Story time.
00:55:19
Speaker
Yes.
00:55:20
Speaker
Like I love to, I love to host dinner parties.
00:55:24
Speaker
I love to have people around my table.
00:55:26
Speaker
And so with that, it takes time to prepare the meal, like creating a piece of art, be that, you know, you're writing a draft, you're in rehearsals, you're working on an underpainting to then, you know, bring forth something visual.
00:55:40
Speaker
This is all preparing something for someone else to partake of.
00:55:45
Speaker
in some way right and so it is it's the preparing of an artistic meal for people to enjoy and have discourse around and for you also as the creative individual to hold discourse that's something we haven't been able really to do up until the advent of social media for someone to like actually correspond
00:56:06
Speaker
with the artist in that kind of dialogical way, which I think is really interesting.
00:56:14
Speaker
I don't think that's something to spurn just because there's so many other tensions within the context.
00:56:21
Speaker
But instead, if I come to it with this posture of hospitality, of this digital hospitality, I'm extending my table, I'm extending my living room, I'm inviting you in, come and partake.
00:56:35
Speaker
Right.
00:56:36
Speaker
And so there's that piece of it where that becomes challenging then is with this platform piece of growth.
00:56:44
Speaker
And so what I really urge creatives, which may not be the most encouraging if they've been told, and this is not always true, but if they've been told you need to have 10,000 followers on any given platform, it's way more complicated than that.
00:57:00
Speaker
And it is not only digital.
00:57:02
Speaker
Like also let me say like your platform is not only digital.
00:57:04
Speaker
It can be very many things.
00:57:08
Speaker
You know, it's just it's a platform.
00:57:10
Speaker
Essentially, it's just kind of like where are people able to find you and have they gain trust in what you're doing?
00:57:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:18
Speaker
It's really what we're asking about, at least in publishing.
00:57:20
Speaker
If you have a platform, like, is that... Like, are you bringing some of that to the table in a way that we can help amplify that?
00:57:29
Speaker
But I know many people who want to share work who are just like, my platform is really small.
00:57:35
Speaker
I don't... My engagement rates aren't great.
00:57:37
Speaker
My follower count hasn't grown a whole lot.
00:57:40
Speaker
But really, like...
00:57:43
Speaker
I think this is that dehumanizing internet piece of that.
00:57:47
Speaker
Those, that number are individual souls that have decided, I would like to continue to see what is happening here.
00:57:55
Speaker
And is the artwork any less valid because there's three people who are participating in that or 30,000?
00:58:02
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:58:04
Speaker
And so really, it's not necessarily three is not going to get you a book deal if that's how many people are subscribed to your email newsletter.
00:58:12
Speaker
But that's three individuals that care about what you're doing.
00:58:15
Speaker
And one of them is probably your mom.
00:58:17
Speaker
And you owe it to her to give her good things, too.
00:58:20
Speaker
You can't phone it in just because it's your mom.
00:58:23
Speaker
She loves you.
00:58:24
Speaker
You love her through making this thing.
00:58:26
Speaker
And this is very thematic.
00:58:28
Speaker
It's really sad.
00:58:28
Speaker
This isn't going to be live before Mother's Day.
00:58:32
Speaker
But, you know, can you be safe?
00:58:34
Speaker
Save this episode till next Mother's Day.
00:58:38
Speaker
How is it in May 2026?
00:58:41
Speaker
Don't tell us.
00:58:42
Speaker
I don't want to know.
00:58:43
Speaker
Could be great.
00:58:45
Speaker
A lot is writing on Leo over here.
00:58:52
Speaker
So, yeah, yeah, that's that's my that's thus concludes that journey.
00:58:58
Speaker
No, that's good.
00:58:59
Speaker
I think, and I think that particularly that piece about remembering to see, this isn't a number, this is people.
00:59:07
Speaker
I've heard around before, but like...
00:59:10
Speaker
I still, I'm like, you know, I grew up in the internet age, so I hear YouTubers who like got burnt out and then they left and then they came back and they're like, okay, and now I'm remembering that like you few thousand are still subscribed.
00:59:22
Speaker
Like, oh, you're people.
00:59:24
Speaker
I'm like, okay, cool.
00:59:24
Speaker
This is a fact that I know.
00:59:26
Speaker
But I catch myself doing it.
00:59:28
Speaker
Like just our last two episodes, one was like 80 people and then the last one was 40.
00:59:33
Speaker
And I was like, oh, but I really liked that last episode we did and only 40.
00:59:36
Speaker
Which one was it?
00:59:37
Speaker
The Eternity one.
00:59:40
Speaker
But no, I was, I like caught myself being like disappointed that it was only like, it was like half the numbers of the last one.
00:59:50
Speaker
But then I was like, but that's still 40 people.
00:59:54
Speaker
You probably don't know all of them personally.
00:59:56
Speaker
No, and I'm like, they still,
00:59:59
Speaker
hopefully, God willing, benefited from something we were able to give and just that gift as an artist to be able to serve people
01:00:12
Speaker
Whatever audience, however big or small, whoever God brings to you, I think is, it's making me think of the last episode now again with the Leaf by Niggle.
01:00:22
Speaker
Have you ever read Leaf by Niggle by Tolkien?
01:00:25
Speaker
Like ages ago.
01:00:27
Speaker
He has this, when that tree that he's been painting and he sees it in heaven and he says it's a gift.
01:00:34
Speaker
Just I think that posture of the art we have, the people that come to it, all of that is a gift.
01:00:42
Speaker
Yeah.
01:00:42
Speaker
And like approaching it with gratitude is important to keep you grounded.
01:00:48
Speaker
Yeah.
01:00:49
Speaker
Yeah.
Valuing Small Audiences and Personal Impact
01:00:50
Speaker
Because it's really it's really easy to compare.
01:00:52
Speaker
that's out there.
01:00:53
Speaker
And a lot of the times the people that we're comparing ourselves to are people who have been doing this for multiple decades.
01:01:00
Speaker
Like they got in when something was like really new.
01:01:02
Speaker
They were doing something really revolutionary.
01:01:03
Speaker
Why don't I have 1.85 million followers like Markiplier?
01:01:08
Speaker
Right, right, right.
01:01:09
Speaker
And like, let's ignore that like he's one of the OG YouTubers and it's just like he's kind of forged a genre all his own.
01:01:17
Speaker
You know, like that's- What about the genre of two guys in a room talking?
01:01:20
Speaker
We're doing that.
01:01:22
Speaker
But there's so many.
01:01:25
Speaker
There's so many.
01:01:26
Speaker
And this is the thing is like, and that's not to,
01:01:30
Speaker
I think really like the myth of scarcity becomes overwhelming where it's like it's not even worth trying.
01:01:39
Speaker
Where it's like, but is it worth doing this thing that you love even if it's not going to be like this massive numerical success?
01:01:51
Speaker
Like is it enough for...
01:01:53
Speaker
for the process of the making of the thing.
01:01:58
Speaker
And because here's the other thing as well, is you can have thousands of followers, you can get the book deal.
01:02:05
Speaker
That also doesn't mean it's going to be a commercial success.
01:02:09
Speaker
You can put on an entire show and that doesn't necessarily mean that people are going to come or that people are going to resonate with it in the way that you hoped they would.
01:02:19
Speaker
But was there something still valuable in the making of
01:02:23
Speaker
the thing if it's not you know going gangbusters and when we're talking living in the context of eternity it's things are completely different than we may think they are right because of how something could affect one person or even us when we produce something in eternity how much difference does it make than this netflix show that million people watch but then just switch to the next netflix show the next day
01:02:51
Speaker
Yeah, where it's like if there's like if one of those people is going to like thoughtfully take that in.
01:02:57
Speaker
Yeah.
01:02:57
Speaker
Like that's so much more valuable than just skipping on to the next whatever.
01:03:02
Speaker
And so can we honor, you know, that person who has decided to enter into the living room to sit down at the dining room table or the extension of the dining room table with us.
01:03:12
Speaker
and see what we're doing.
01:03:13
Speaker
Can we honor that instead of just being like, ah, well, more y'all need to get around my table.
01:03:23
Speaker
I'm not serving.
01:03:23
Speaker
This is ridiculous.
01:03:25
Speaker
Where are you?
01:03:26
Speaker
That would be a terrible party to show up at.
01:03:31
Speaker
I'm like, oh, there's just you.
01:03:32
Speaker
So I see you coming to my table today.
01:03:35
Speaker
It's last week.
01:03:36
Speaker
It's almost like
01:03:38
Speaker
when Jesus is rebuking, like the Pharisees are saying, like, you don't sit at, or maybe this is James, this might be James, when it's don't go to the table and look for the rich person to sit with and put the poor person in the poor spot, but the rich person in this hypothetical person's mind isn't there and they're trying to sit with this person that isn't even at the table.
01:04:02
Speaker
Exactly.
01:04:03
Speaker
When there's this person who needs what they're offering that...
01:04:08
Speaker
deserves that care and time yeah that's interesting i mean similarly to what we're talking about with chesterton of like i mean you can try and go out and find those people but like there's people already with you right like right what are you doing for them and like how are they like being honored within you know like what is the hospitable action yeah being extended
01:04:29
Speaker
to it's hard just to take care of a couple people totally yeah well and so this is the other thing as well of like i mean we're not relationship isn't scalable you know i mean how many times have we have we seen very public ministers fail out of ministry in these gigantic things where they were not held accountable three times
01:04:53
Speaker
Only three?
01:04:53
Speaker
That's what we've seen.
01:04:56
Speaker
Okay.
01:04:57
Speaker
It's only happened to three guys.
01:04:58
Speaker
But that was significant times.
01:05:01
Speaker
There's a lot.
01:05:01
Speaker
There's a lot of this happening in small and big ways across different organizations.
01:05:05
Speaker
And, like, I mean, we're kind of looking at because, I mean, I also think on some level, I mean, specifically, like, with the publishing company I'm working with, like, I'm working with a lot of, like, pastors and scholars.
01:05:15
Speaker
Yeah.
01:05:16
Speaker
And with that, it kind of becomes an extension of the pulpit, especially nonfiction.
01:05:20
Speaker
It kind of becomes an extension of the pulpit.
01:05:23
Speaker
And yet, we need to think a lot more about, is this also James?
01:05:29
Speaker
Like, warning against being teachers?
01:05:31
Speaker
This could be this is Paulish somewhere.
01:05:34
Speaker
Someone's being warned in the New Testament.
01:05:36
Speaker
That is Paul.
01:05:37
Speaker
Not all of you should seek to be teachers because of the level of responsibility.
01:05:42
Speaker
Yes.
01:05:42
Speaker
Yes.
01:05:43
Speaker
And we don't I just I don't think a lot of people think that of that same Timothy.
01:05:47
Speaker
Someone.
01:05:48
Speaker
Yeah.
01:05:49
Speaker
Sorry.
01:05:50
Speaker
It's a good word.
01:05:51
Speaker
In the word.
01:05:52
Speaker
The Holy Spirit wrote this.
01:05:54
Speaker
It's in there.
01:05:55
Speaker
Trust me, it's there.
01:05:56
Speaker
It's in there with all those maps.
01:05:59
Speaker
Somewhere between Genesis and the maps.
01:06:01
Speaker
Yes, that's right.
01:06:02
Speaker
There's this word from Paul.
01:06:04
Speaker
Oh, gosh, who is that?
01:06:05
Speaker
There's a Christian comedian, and that was her.
01:06:07
Speaker
Her whole shtick was she read the Bible from Genesis to maps.
01:06:12
Speaker
She has a name, but it's escaping me right now.
01:06:14
Speaker
But if you were an evangelical in the 80s or early 90s, you probably know who it was.
01:06:20
Speaker
So shout out in the comments.
01:06:22
Speaker
Do it.
01:06:24
Speaker
So yes.
01:06:26
Speaker
But that like, I mean, if it's an extension of the pulpit or an extension of the like the pastor's office,
01:06:33
Speaker
then like do we bear that same responsibility of teaching?
01:06:37
Speaker
I think on
Artists' Responsibility in Audience Influence
01:06:38
Speaker
some level, yes.
01:06:39
Speaker
I think that there should be some fear and trembling that we can.
01:06:43
Speaker
That's something that I've thought about a lot with artists that,
01:06:50
Speaker
is there, especially as like we've been talking in artists of the way we're kind of growing the organization, we're talking about if we're going to do another show, thinking specifically in the context of a director, especially in a Christian context, you are forming these people's lives in some way.
01:07:08
Speaker
And if you are a creator who is...
01:07:12
Speaker
like one of the main people that like, if, if like, I have like two or three podcasts that I listened to on the regular, these people are influential in my lives and my lives in my multiple lives.
01:07:28
Speaker
You're so feline.
01:07:29
Speaker
I am.
01:07:30
Speaker
I actually believe in reincarnation.
01:07:32
Speaker
Wild twist.
01:07:33
Speaker
Um, um,
01:07:37
Speaker
They do.
01:07:38
Speaker
And some of them I can trust more than others.
01:07:40
Speaker
Your lives?
01:07:41
Speaker
Oh, no, the podcast people.
01:07:44
Speaker
Maybe of my lives, too.
01:07:47
Speaker
No, but of these people that I listen to on the regular that are intelligent or maybe just silly and fun, and sometimes I have to guard against it, and sometimes...
01:07:56
Speaker
You know, I'm but there's still an influence there.
01:07:59
Speaker
And so some thought must be given to how does this shape people?
01:08:05
Speaker
And what's my responsibility as some sort of spiritual leader?
01:08:10
Speaker
Even if I'm not a pastor, there's a responsibility and a weight there that I think.
01:08:16
Speaker
We don't need to overthink because God can help us through that.
01:08:19
Speaker
Right.
01:08:20
Speaker
So if you're making a Facebook post, as an artist of like, I'm going to be at this event on Wednesday and I'm going to share this thing, you don't need to overthink.
01:08:32
Speaker
Is this going to lead somebody into heresy necessarily?
01:08:35
Speaker
Does God want me to capitalize 2pm or lowercase the pm?
01:08:39
Speaker
He wants it lowercase with two periods between the pm.
01:08:42
Speaker
Is that how you recommend it?
01:08:45
Speaker
I mean, the style guide of the first place I worked for.
01:08:49
Speaker
Oh, I see.
01:08:49
Speaker
And I worked for a college admissions, like, deal.
01:08:53
Speaker
There was a lot of dates and times.
01:08:55
Speaker
But I do think, like, in this sort of, like, oh, like, the weight of that.
01:09:00
Speaker
Like, I think there is, like, I mean, St.
01:09:02
Speaker
Augustine talks about, like, love God and do what one will.
01:09:05
Speaker
You know, of that, like, there is grace for the fact that we are human.
01:09:10
Speaker
God is not surprised by this.
01:09:11
Speaker
Yes.
01:09:13
Speaker
What?
01:09:14
Speaker
You're a person?
01:09:14
Speaker
You made a mistake?
01:09:15
Speaker
Yes, yes.
01:09:16
Speaker
Why do you keep doing that?
01:09:17
Speaker
Every single one of you.
01:09:19
Speaker
He is not shocked in the least.
01:09:20
Speaker
And so with that, it's again, two things can be true.
01:09:29
Speaker
understand like the responsibility that is here and yet also everything you're doing is not this extension you're also not that big as you know i'm just kind of like yes this is important and i want to do this well and also there is grace for just who i am as a person and i will move forward i'm not going to let myself be paralyzed thinking there's only one
01:09:52
Speaker
Right, correct way to do something, but instead trust of like, I love the Lord.
01:09:58
Speaker
I, you know, I feel called to this or I am leaning into, you know, this, this gift that he's given.
01:10:05
Speaker
And, you know, I'm going, I'm going to tread.
01:10:08
Speaker
as faithfully as I am able and, you know, make grace cover where I am not, you know, gives you that freedom to keep moving ahead without, you know, without this like, oh my gosh, I made a typo.
01:10:26
Speaker
Now everybody's going to think that that's how you spell that word.
01:10:30
Speaker
They're not going to think that, but they might just be a typo.
01:10:34
Speaker
They might be like, I don't know if this is quality.
01:10:38
Speaker
And that's fair.
01:10:39
Speaker
They can question that.
01:10:40
Speaker
But it does not take away your value as a human being to have a typo.
01:10:43
Speaker
Absolutely.
01:10:44
Speaker
That's good.
01:10:45
Speaker
This has been lovely.
01:10:46
Speaker
There's more we want to talk to you about, but I think that we're at time, so we'll just have to invite you on again.
01:10:51
Speaker
That's fair.
01:10:53
Speaker
last question what i ask everybody and part of what i hope to build out with this platform is several resources that people can go to if they are trying to grow as artists or as christians so do you have give us give us a couple resources here for those living in the digital age trying to be good artists and physical books okay so what i referenced we have marshall mccluan's understanding media is like if you want to get like
01:11:19
Speaker
really nerdy about like media theory that's that but for um for more people who are just like on the artist deal i'm sure people talk about this but dorothy sayers mind of the maker i love this book yeah it's so it's so lovely just like this is this is a theology of making okay and so that's really excellent i reference this one that you are not a gadget yes by jaron laner
01:11:42
Speaker
um and then something else that i think is just handy for um folks who are creating and kind of are in that struggle of like it has to be like i need to be making money or it needs to be productive or it needs to be doing something phenomenal instead of letting yourself just be in creating making time by maria balder
01:12:03
Speaker
is so great.
01:12:04
Speaker
So the subtitle for this is a new vision for crafting a life beyond productivity.
01:12:09
Speaker
And so she's going through kind of like, what is it to like make and unmake a creative life?
01:12:14
Speaker
And like, that's a constant process as life as life seasons change.
01:12:19
Speaker
And there's different demands on time and attention.
01:12:22
Speaker
And yet you can still be creative.
01:12:24
Speaker
And it does not have to be this like, Oh, well, I'm I'm further along than I was
01:12:28
Speaker
So like my making needs to be this top notch and it needs to always be bigger and better.
01:12:33
Speaker
Like what is it to just let yourself be and make and you know, explore that creative side of your soul.
01:12:40
Speaker
So really, really lovely.
01:12:41
Speaker
I feel like half of those, at least maybe all of those are going to go on my Christmas list.
01:12:45
Speaker
I'm like, those are exciting.
01:12:47
Speaker
Awesome.
01:12:48
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for coming on.
01:12:50
Speaker
This was just a really great discussion.
01:12:52
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:52
Speaker
No, thank you so much for having me.
01:12:53
Speaker
It's been absolutely delightful.
01:12:55
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:56
Speaker
I appreciate your questions and your input.
01:12:58
Speaker
Yeah.