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Conclave, Doubt, and Discernment in Art
60 Plays10 months ago
In this episode Jon and Nate discuss Jon's favorite film of 2024, Conclave, and how it depicts the church, approaches faith, doubt, and mystery, and how we can be discerning in the art we intake.
Recommended
Transcript
Interrogation Scene Surprise
00:00:03
Speaker
Hello friends, welcome back to Artist of the Way.
00:00:05
Speaker
Should I catch you off guard?
00:00:07
Speaker
Okay, I just saw you in the corner of my house.
00:00:10
Speaker
What is Nate now prepared?
00:00:11
Speaker
There's a camera?
00:00:12
Speaker
There's a camera.
00:00:13
Speaker
Nate, I'm recording you.
00:00:14
Speaker
This is an interrogation.
00:00:15
Speaker
Okay.
00:00:16
Speaker
There's the lamp above us.
00:00:17
Speaker
It's
Discussion on 'Conclave'
00:00:18
Speaker
very niquity.
00:00:18
Speaker
What did you think of the movie Conclave?
00:00:24
Speaker
There was a lot of heavy breathing in that movie.
00:00:26
Speaker
I think that's a good connection.
00:00:28
Speaker
We're starting right off the bat.
00:00:30
Speaker
Okay, spoilers for the, okay, hang on.
00:00:32
Speaker
This is Artist of the Way.
00:00:33
Speaker
I'm John, the host.
00:00:34
Speaker
This is my friend, Nate.
00:00:34
Speaker
I'm Nate.
00:00:35
Speaker
He's the co-host now.
00:00:36
Speaker
Hi.
00:00:37
Speaker
Hopefully you're used to that now because you've had one episode.
00:00:40
Speaker
Yeah, come on.
00:00:41
Speaker
It was just like a hi to like a child.
00:00:43
Speaker
Hi, buddy.
00:00:45
Speaker
How are you doing?
00:00:47
Speaker
I do have a one-year-old in the house.
00:00:48
Speaker
It's true.
00:00:48
Speaker
It's just seeping in your bones.
00:00:50
Speaker
Listen, we're done talking about parenting.
Shift to Adult Content
00:00:52
Speaker
We did that the last episode.
00:00:53
Speaker
Go back to the other episode.
00:00:55
Speaker
Yeah, come on, man.
00:00:56
Speaker
Yes.
00:00:59
Speaker
This is the second part of our episode.
00:01:01
Speaker
This is the adult episode.
00:01:03
Speaker
If you were a child, my brain really wanted to curse there really badly.
00:01:11
Speaker
I stopped myself.
00:01:12
Speaker
Nice.
00:01:13
Speaker
Thanks.
Creative Organization Concepts
00:01:14
Speaker
I would get fired.
00:01:15
Speaker
Yeah, maybe.
00:01:17
Speaker
I could.
00:01:17
Speaker
I could get fired now.
00:01:19
Speaker
That's something.
00:01:19
Speaker
I feel like... Where would you go?
00:01:21
Speaker
Where would I go?
00:01:21
Speaker
I have no idea.
00:01:24
Speaker
What would be the new organization that you'd make?
00:01:27
Speaker
The new organization I'd make?
00:01:30
Speaker
Artists of the Christian path.
00:01:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:33
Speaker
Artists who follow Jesus.
00:01:35
Speaker
It doesn't sound as catchy, but it has the same vibe.
00:01:37
Speaker
You just have to work that much harder.
00:01:39
Speaker
I do.
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Speaker
To make it good.
00:01:40
Speaker
I do.
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Speaker
Because the name already sucks.
00:01:43
Speaker
Overcome.
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Speaker
I know.
00:01:45
Speaker
Surmounted.
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Speaker
Listen, we're not Pope John Paul II.
00:01:49
Speaker
We can't all write amazing plays.
00:01:52
Speaker
We don't know if he can
Pope John Paul II's Playwriting
00:01:53
Speaker
either.
00:01:53
Speaker
We don't know, because maybe there hasn't been as much time as it would think that there would be in between these two episodes, so maybe I haven't had time to research that yet.
00:02:02
Speaker
He's joking.
00:02:02
Speaker
He spent the last hour pouring over.
00:02:05
Speaker
I did.
00:02:06
Speaker
And I'm going to do a dramatic reading for you of good old John Paul numero two.
00:02:11
Speaker
Electric boogaloo.
00:02:14
Speaker
No, I'm not going to do that.
00:02:15
Speaker
But we are going to talk about the Catholic faith.
00:02:21
Speaker
Is that like your movie trailer voice?
00:02:23
Speaker
I guess.
00:02:25
Speaker
Nice.
00:02:25
Speaker
So
Favorite 2024 Movies
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Speaker
this is the second part of two episodes that we have discovered is Nate and I talking about our favorite movies of 2024.
00:02:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:33
Speaker
Mine's a little bit more controversial, but I'm ready to dive in.
00:02:36
Speaker
I love controversial things.
00:02:38
Speaker
So this is right up my alley.
00:02:40
Speaker
Spoilers for the movie Conclave, which I highly recommend.
00:02:44
Speaker
It's intense, though.
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Speaker
I liked it, too.
00:02:46
Speaker
Nate liked it, too.
00:02:47
Speaker
And we have slightly differing views.
00:02:49
Speaker
On what?
00:02:50
Speaker
On what?
00:02:51
Speaker
Lots of things.
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Speaker
Lots of things.
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Speaker
Not really the Christian faith.
00:02:54
Speaker
We like it.
00:02:55
Speaker
But other things.
00:02:55
Speaker
We do like it.
00:02:56
Speaker
That's our shared opinion on the Christian
Faith and 'Conclave' Discussion
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Speaker
faith.
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Speaker
We feel different about some other faiths.
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Speaker
Maybe.
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Speaker
Do we?
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Speaker
Maybe you hate one slightly more than I do.
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Speaker
While we both hate them a lot.
00:03:08
Speaker
Damn, we're the other faiths.
00:03:09
Speaker
Now we're sounding like a particular character in the movie Conclave.
00:03:13
Speaker
Yes.
00:03:14
Speaker
He may have had a beard.
00:03:16
Speaker
He might have had a beard.
00:03:17
Speaker
Maybe I share an ancestry with him.
00:03:20
Speaker
Ooh, Mr. Italian.
00:03:22
Speaker
Italian.
00:03:23
Speaker
Anyway, spoilers for the movie.
00:03:25
Speaker
Joe Italian, you're both related to him.
00:03:27
Speaker
I wanted Joe Italian to be pho.
00:03:32
Speaker
But yes, I highly recommend it, but it is
Papal Conclave Process
00:03:34
Speaker
intense.
00:03:34
Speaker
It's a political thriller about the Catholic Church, which is...
00:03:39
Speaker
Oh yeah, man.
00:03:41
Speaker
I thought it would.
00:03:42
Speaker
What a great topic for a movie.
00:03:45
Speaker
I know, just as a premise.
00:03:46
Speaker
What a great premise.
00:03:47
Speaker
That's the word.
00:03:48
Speaker
I mean, so if you don't know what happens in the real world.
00:03:54
Speaker
A conclave, which I'm only learning in the last couple years.
00:03:58
Speaker
I don't want people to think I'm going to know at all.
00:03:59
Speaker
I learned in the last couple years.
00:04:01
Speaker
Weeks.
00:04:02
Speaker
Days.
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Speaker
I know so much more than you.
00:04:04
Speaker
It's amazing.
00:04:07
Speaker
No, it's when the Catholic Church, when a pope dies.
00:04:13
Speaker
As they do.
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Speaker
The pope is the head of the Catholic Church.
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Speaker
I'm just going to over explain this in case people are really not familiar with the Catholic Church.
00:04:20
Speaker
So the pope is sort of like, in the view of the Catholic Church, the ordained priest.
00:04:25
Speaker
priest over the entire Catholic Church who leads it.
00:04:28
Speaker
They would say that that traces back to Peter.
00:04:31
Speaker
He's the guy.
00:04:32
Speaker
He's the guy.
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Speaker
He is the Pope.
00:04:34
Speaker
Pope the first.
00:04:38
Speaker
Do you know who the second Pope was?
00:04:40
Speaker
I don't know who the second Pope was.
00:04:41
Speaker
Do you know who the second Pope was?
00:04:42
Speaker
Linus.
00:04:43
Speaker
Linus?
00:04:44
Speaker
Yes.
00:04:44
Speaker
Oh, lovely, like in Peanuts.
00:04:47
Speaker
Yes, that's what they think.
00:04:49
Speaker
That's cool.
00:04:50
Speaker
He's like listed in like one of Paul's letters.
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Speaker
It's like, say hi, hey to Linus or something like that.
00:04:55
Speaker
And he was like the Bishop of Rome, I think.
00:04:59
Speaker
Oh, that makes sense.
00:05:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:00
Speaker
According to the Catholics, that would have been the Pope.
00:05:02
Speaker
Because that's kind of the seat of the Western Church.
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:05
Speaker
So, yes.
00:05:06
Speaker
So a Pope dies and you have to get a new Pope.
00:05:09
Speaker
Gotcha.
00:05:10
Speaker
Which means you need to figure out, ideally, what God's will is for who to have as the new Pope.
00:05:16
Speaker
So the way that the Catholic Church now does this is they will sequester their cardinals, which is...
00:05:23
Speaker
I think sort of like a bishop, but like higher up.
00:05:26
Speaker
And I think connected like directly to the Vatican, which is sort of the... Yeah, what is the difference between a bishop and a cardinal?
00:05:33
Speaker
Cardinal's higher.
00:05:34
Speaker
Now I have two Catholic things to research, which is, was Pope John Paul II's plays any good?
00:05:40
Speaker
Were they even Catholic?
00:05:41
Speaker
Were they even Catholic?
00:05:42
Speaker
Ooh.
00:05:43
Speaker
Probably.
00:05:45
Speaker
And how exactly does the Cardinals fit into the ecclesiology?
00:05:48
Speaker
They're basically a step above bishops, right?
00:05:50
Speaker
They wear red.
00:05:51
Speaker
They do wear red.
00:05:52
Speaker
That's what we know.
00:05:53
Speaker
We do, because they used red a lot in the visuals of this movie.
00:05:56
Speaker
But they'll literally lock themselves in the Vatican, and then they will vote.
00:06:00
Speaker
Which is not as nice of a place as you might think.
00:06:03
Speaker
Not in this movie, at least.
00:06:05
Speaker
No.
00:06:06
Speaker
It was a bit drab.
00:06:07
Speaker
A bit oppressive.
00:06:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:10
Speaker
And then they will choose a new pope through voting and prayer and a lot of things.
00:06:18
Speaker
No lot casting.
Humorous Pope Election Ideas
00:06:20
Speaker
No.
00:06:20
Speaker
What was with that?
00:06:21
Speaker
Unbiblical.
00:06:22
Speaker
They should have cast some lots.
00:06:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:24
Speaker
I wanted them to gamble about the pope.
00:06:28
Speaker
Let's, I'm all in on being the Pope.
00:06:32
Speaker
I think sometimes it's biblically justifiable.
00:06:34
Speaker
It's like they make sure they choose good candidates, and then out of the good candidates, cast some lots.
00:06:40
Speaker
I think it's biblically defensible.
00:06:42
Speaker
Why not?
00:06:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:43
Speaker
I don't know if I'm brave enough to do it, but I think it's biblically defensible.
00:06:46
Speaker
Right.
00:06:46
Speaker
Although, isn't Eenie, Meenie, Miney, Moe just casting lots?
00:06:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's just as much chance in that.
00:06:53
Speaker
That's true.
00:06:54
Speaker
Although you do eventually know who you're going to land on.
00:06:58
Speaker
Yeah, I know.
00:06:58
Speaker
That's what I was kind of saying.
00:07:02
Speaker
But yeah, so that's what happens when a new pope is elected.
00:07:06
Speaker
And so this movie.
00:07:08
Speaker
And sometimes different people want to be pope.
00:07:11
Speaker
Yes.
00:07:11
Speaker
So.
00:07:12
Speaker
And they'll pretend like they don't.
00:07:14
Speaker
In a perfect world.
00:07:15
Speaker
In this movie.
00:07:16
Speaker
In a perfect world.
00:07:17
Speaker
This is all just led by the Holy Spirit and is decided upon through the will of God.
00:07:22
Speaker
Which, I mean, if you're extrapolating it up enough, it is.
00:07:26
Speaker
God is in control of everything.
00:07:27
Speaker
He's sovereign.
00:07:27
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:07:29
Speaker
But there's also a lot of politics to the Catholic Church in particular because it is still the largest church body.
00:07:36
Speaker
And it is so... There's a lot of people.
00:07:39
Speaker
It is groups.
00:07:40
Speaker
It is groups.
00:07:40
Speaker
Politics right there.
00:07:42
Speaker
And it's probably, I think it's probably the church body that engages with governments the most, I feel like, from what I know directly.
00:07:50
Speaker
Maybe.
00:07:51
Speaker
But...
00:07:54
Speaker
So it's very political.
00:07:56
Speaker
And I mean... It's a fictional movie.
00:07:58
Speaker
Yes.
00:07:58
Speaker
So this movie... You're like, John, get on topic.
00:08:01
Speaker
I just want to say things.
00:08:04
Speaker
Yeah, so this movie...
00:08:08
Speaker
It's fictional.
00:08:10
Speaker
So this movie is like, what if that happened again?
00:08:13
Speaker
What if Pope Jeff died?
00:08:15
Speaker
What if Pope Jeff died?
00:08:16
Speaker
In this film, the fictional Pope, they never named the Pope, do they?
00:08:19
Speaker
It's Jeff.
00:08:20
Speaker
Did he have like a previous Pope name that they refer to?
00:08:22
Speaker
I don't think they even do.
00:08:23
Speaker
He's just the Pope.
00:08:24
Speaker
He's just the Holy Father.
00:08:25
Speaker
The Holy Father is what they call him.
00:08:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:28
Speaker
Which is just a nice title.
00:08:29
Speaker
I don't know.
00:08:30
Speaker
Not a bad title.
00:08:31
Speaker
It's not a bad title.
00:08:32
Speaker
I like it.
00:08:33
Speaker
Holy Father is just cozy.
00:08:35
Speaker
It sounds cozy, you know?
00:08:36
Speaker
It's pretty audacious.
00:08:38
Speaker
It is audacious.
00:08:39
Speaker
Both of those words.
00:08:40
Speaker
That is true.
00:08:41
Speaker
Which word do you think is more audacious?
00:08:44
Speaker
Holy.
00:08:47
Speaker
What about Jesus saying, no one shall call you father?
00:08:50
Speaker
Oh, that's fair.
00:08:52
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:08:52
Speaker
Okay.
00:08:53
Speaker
No, I take it back.
00:08:53
Speaker
We're all holy because Jesus has made us holy.
00:08:56
Speaker
This is a surprise audacious answer.
00:09:00
Speaker
But Father has become sort of just this historic church term to refer to a priest.
00:09:06
Speaker
So they probably are not trying to equate it to like Father is in God the Father, but more just like he's like the priest of priests.
00:09:16
Speaker
And then Jesus is the priest of
00:09:18
Speaker
of priests and the priest of priests.
00:09:20
Speaker
Is that not what Jesus meant when you said don't say that though?
00:09:23
Speaker
I don't know.
00:09:24
Speaker
I haven't done a lot of... He was a bit controversial at that stage.
00:09:27
Speaker
He was.
00:09:27
Speaker
And I don't know the like linguistic history of why we refer to priest's father yet.
00:09:34
Speaker
I should look into that.
00:09:35
Speaker
I would like to look into that sometime.
00:09:36
Speaker
I think that'd be an interesting academic study.
00:09:38
Speaker
Um, yeah.
00:09:41
Speaker
Let me know.
00:09:41
Speaker
So I'm not sure.
00:09:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:42
Speaker
I'll look into it and then I'll tell you what to believe.
00:09:44
Speaker
He's going to be busy the next week.
00:09:49
Speaker
I know.
00:09:50
Speaker
Um,
00:09:51
Speaker
Yes.
00:09:51
Speaker
So the film Conclave stars Ralph Fiennes, who's great as he has a nose in this movie.
00:09:56
Speaker
He does.
00:09:57
Speaker
Pretty good.
00:09:58
Speaker
I like in Harry Potter.
00:09:59
Speaker
He has a good nose.
00:10:00
Speaker
He plays Cardinal Lawrence.
00:10:02
Speaker
What a good guy.
00:10:03
Speaker
Lovely guy.
00:10:04
Speaker
I like that guy.
00:10:06
Speaker
I liked him too.
00:10:06
Speaker
I liked a lot of the guys.
00:10:08
Speaker
You liked a lot of the guys.
00:10:10
Speaker
I liked.
00:10:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:11
Speaker
There's several guys that like there are several guys.
00:10:13
Speaker
I like especially this guy.
00:10:15
Speaker
I did.
00:10:15
Speaker
This guy was probably my favorite guy.
00:10:19
Speaker
So he is a dean.
00:10:23
Speaker
And that means I don't know what he's a dean of, but he is referred to as the dean.
00:10:28
Speaker
And so he is in charge of running the conclave to select the pope.
00:10:33
Speaker
And very early on in the film, he's referring back to a conversation he had with the pope because he was.
00:10:44
Speaker
his character is sort of struggling with doubt.
00:10:46
Speaker
I think this film has very interesting things to say about doubt and faith.
00:10:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:50
Speaker
And so he's wrestling with doubt, and so he's like,
00:10:53
Speaker
Mr. Pope, sir, I think I'd like to just kind of back off from my duties and just go join a holy order and just kind of monk it up.
00:11:02
Speaker
Is that my monastery?
00:11:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:04
Speaker
So like Benedictine monks is a holy order.
00:11:07
Speaker
So he's like, I kind of just want to do that.
00:11:09
Speaker
It's nice that he was having doubts, but he wasn't just going to totally go away.
00:11:13
Speaker
Right.
00:11:14
Speaker
I'm not feeling good.
00:11:15
Speaker
So I don't know if I should be doing my stuff, but I still want to figure this out.
00:11:18
Speaker
Right.
00:11:18
Speaker
And then the Pope was like, nah, fam.
00:11:20
Speaker
But he gave him this like missional sentence that Cardinal Lawrence is clearly not happy about.
00:11:27
Speaker
But the Pope told him some people are shepherds and some people are called to manage.
00:11:33
Speaker
Manage the farm.
00:11:34
Speaker
Yeah, to manage the farm.
00:11:35
Speaker
And you're a manager.
00:11:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:37
Speaker
And that's like what's implied.
00:11:39
Speaker
He felt a little bad about that.
00:11:41
Speaker
He did.
00:11:41
Speaker
He didn't like that.
00:11:42
Speaker
I'm a stupid manager.
00:11:43
Speaker
It sounds like I work at a McDonald's.
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:45
Speaker
But it's the Catholic Church.
00:11:47
Speaker
It's a pretty good title actually, manager.
00:11:49
Speaker
Yeah, of the Catholic Church.
00:11:51
Speaker
Yeah, McDonald's even.
00:11:52
Speaker
That's true.
00:11:55
Speaker
So it follows him as he seeks to navigate all the political machinations that are happening within the Catholic church as they try and select a new Pope.
00:12:06
Speaker
And I think it's one of the most raw and honest depictions of the church and the conflicts and struggles within the church of our day that I have seen on a popular level.
American Church Narratives
00:12:20
Speaker
Could be.
00:12:20
Speaker
I would know.
00:12:23
Speaker
What's it like there?
00:12:24
Speaker
I've never been conclaved before.
00:12:26
Speaker
Well, that's true.
00:12:27
Speaker
I mean, I don't know about in a conclave, but just like general theologically.
00:12:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:33
Speaker
Specifically because of in the bubble that we live in in America, I'm going to get in a rant about how the world views the church for a second.
00:12:40
Speaker
Wasn't me.
00:12:41
Speaker
Could be me.
00:12:42
Speaker
Wasn't you?
00:12:42
Speaker
What do you mean?
00:12:43
Speaker
Wasn't you like you didn't view the church that way?
00:12:46
Speaker
Whatever you're good at ranting.
00:12:47
Speaker
Oh, no, I don't think it's you.
00:12:49
Speaker
I don't think so.
00:12:50
Speaker
Okay.
00:12:53
Speaker
In America, we have conservatives and liberals.
00:12:55
Speaker
And it's like, this is the great battleground.
00:12:57
Speaker
And it's between white conservatives and multi-ethnic liberals is the narrative.
African Church's Future
00:13:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:05
Speaker
And...
00:13:08
Speaker
The conservatives are racist and oppressive and horrible and the liberals are progressive and want to move things forward and are completely altruistic.
00:13:16
Speaker
Okay, this is one narrative.
00:13:17
Speaker
Hang on.
00:13:18
Speaker
This is not being fair to both sides.
00:13:19
Speaker
This is a narrative.
00:13:21
Speaker
There's also the narrative.
00:13:22
Speaker
It is a popular narrative.
00:13:24
Speaker
There is also another narrative in which there's like, we are the conservative church.
00:13:27
Speaker
We're the only ones who care about biblical truth and and
00:13:31
Speaker
the heart of Christ.
00:13:33
Speaker
You're doing the positive side now.
00:13:34
Speaker
Yes.
00:13:35
Speaker
Wait.
00:13:36
Speaker
Yes.
00:13:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:37
Speaker
Now there's like the pro-conservative side and the anti-liberal side.
00:13:40
Speaker
But it's all like down to these two things.
00:13:41
Speaker
It's like, oh, and there's all these categories that you fit into.
00:13:44
Speaker
But the reality in the church is that the church does not fit into those categories like at all.
00:13:51
Speaker
Like maybe in America it does.
00:13:53
Speaker
And yes, that's a that's a tense dialogue in America.
00:13:56
Speaker
But it's
00:13:58
Speaker
The issues that the global church is actually facing that actually matter to the church as a whole is not this infighting in America.
00:14:06
Speaker
Not about taxes.
00:14:07
Speaker
It's not.
00:14:07
Speaker
Most of the church is looking at America and is like, what the heck?
00:14:11
Speaker
Get your crap together.
00:14:12
Speaker
We're being persecuted over here.
00:14:14
Speaker
What is happening over there?
00:14:16
Speaker
I guess we have to send missionaries over to you guys because you don't know what you're doing or how to navigate these things or how to solve these things biblically or how to find unity.
00:14:24
Speaker
So I guess we're going to send people over and try and not die over here.
00:14:27
Speaker
And it's just like, it is embarrassing and it's horrible.
00:14:29
Speaker
And we treat it like our American church is so important.
00:14:32
Speaker
And like it is, but in the landscape of the world, we are not the leaders in the church anymore at all.
00:14:41
Speaker
Sorry, I got really passionate.
00:14:43
Speaker
He believes this.
00:14:45
Speaker
I don't think I ran so much before on the podcast.
00:14:49
Speaker
But I think the film does a really good job of picking out these different.
00:14:55
Speaker
And I mean, it can't delve into all these issues that the church is wrestling with.
00:14:59
Speaker
But it does a really good job of painting these pictures of what's actually going on in the church and beliefs that are happening in the church.
00:15:08
Speaker
And I just my favorite microcosm of this, I think is the most obvious one that most people don't think about is
00:15:16
Speaker
The African church is incredibly theologically conservative, and most of the world does not know that.
00:15:23
Speaker
But the African church, which is growing tremendously and is, I think, probably within our lifetime, if it hasn't already, will overtake as...
00:15:36
Speaker
like the African and Middle Eastern area, I think will become the center for the church.
00:15:41
Speaker
Wow.
00:15:42
Speaker
Which I mean, it was before at one point.
00:15:44
Speaker
Coming back.
00:15:45
Speaker
Yes, coming back.
00:15:46
Speaker
It's like, I'm taking it back, guys.
00:15:47
Speaker
Woo!
00:15:48
Speaker
For Augustine!
00:15:51
Speaker
Yay, Africa!
00:15:55
Speaker
But they're incredibly theologically conservative.
00:15:58
Speaker
So you have all these different factions in conclave.
00:16:00
Speaker
So you have theological liberals who have been trying to push for more like tolerance and women in leadership.
00:16:07
Speaker
And they don't really specify what, but something about policies around like gay and lesbian people.
00:16:16
Speaker
They don't really specify what.
00:16:17
Speaker
It probably would be easy to assume that it's either blessing, same-sex unions, or...
00:16:22
Speaker
potentially just being fine with that at all, theologically.
00:16:27
Speaker
And there's a moment where they're like, dang, it looks like the African contender for the Pope might win.
00:16:34
Speaker
That sucks, because he's super theologically conservative.
00:16:37
Speaker
If he was white, we could talk about how bigoted he was.
00:16:40
Speaker
But we can't, because he's black.
00:16:43
Speaker
I'm just like, what a raw thing that I was shocked to see on a popular
Film's Portrayal of Faith
00:16:49
Speaker
level.
00:16:49
Speaker
It's so just...
00:16:52
Speaker
It's just I think that showed the real depth of understanding of what's happening in the church that this movie had, even if people are not behind the movie are not Christian.
00:17:02
Speaker
I think it was made with a lot of love for the Christian faith.
00:17:06
Speaker
And I think it portrayed God amidst that film quite well and very subtly.
00:17:11
Speaker
Yeah, straight.
00:17:12
Speaker
It was kind of it wasn't offensive.
00:17:14
Speaker
Mm hmm.
00:17:15
Speaker
To me, I didn't find it offensive.
00:17:17
Speaker
It was to other people.
00:17:18
Speaker
It was.
00:17:20
Speaker
Not us.
00:17:21
Speaker
So the interesting struggle for this character, it's this and Rings of Power.
00:17:25
Speaker
That's where we can have the unpopular artistic opinions and stick together.
00:17:29
Speaker
Liking things.
00:17:30
Speaker
Yes.
00:17:32
Speaker
So Cardinal Lawrence is trying to navigate this and frequently is coming into contact, contact conflict with these different parties within the church.
00:17:42
Speaker
He's liberal.
00:17:43
Speaker
He is liberal.
00:17:43
Speaker
But he's a very fair guy.
00:17:45
Speaker
He is.
00:17:45
Speaker
And he's he's honest.
00:17:47
Speaker
He is.
00:17:47
Speaker
And my my favorite line of his, he's he's speaking with there's there's sort of these like I think it's five front runners
00:17:56
Speaker
for the the papacy with the pope for being elected pope-pacy the pope-pacy that like um are sort of rising to the top um there's john lithgow who is uh cardinal trembling illegal for the whole world to dance now he is he's on the warpath but he's you never really know what he believes he's just sort of there to like game the system
00:18:22
Speaker
He's a liberal too.
00:18:24
Speaker
He is, but he seems a little, he's not as... Dogmatic?
00:18:28
Speaker
Yeah, like he doesn't, he's not doing as much of the rhetoric as everybody else.
00:18:33
Speaker
Like you can see he's trying to... He's one of the guys.
00:18:35
Speaker
He just wants the papacy, like for himself, I think, more than the agenda.
00:18:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:39
Speaker
And then you have...
00:18:42
Speaker
Aldo Bellini, who's played by Stanley Tucci, who's always amazing.
00:18:45
Speaker
I love Stanley Tucci.
00:18:46
Speaker
I didn't realize that he was the Hunger Games guy.
00:18:49
Speaker
He is.
00:18:50
Speaker
And he's in Captain America The First Avenger.
00:18:51
Speaker
I knew those guys were the same.
00:18:52
Speaker
He's great.
00:18:53
Speaker
I love Stanley Tucci.
00:18:54
Speaker
He's in a great episode of Monk, too.
00:18:55
Speaker
He is?
00:18:56
Speaker
Nice.
00:18:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:57
Speaker
He's in Transformers Age of Extinction, which is a horrible Transformers movie.
00:19:01
Speaker
How is he?
00:19:02
Speaker
About as good as everything else in that movie.
00:19:05
Speaker
Bad.
00:19:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:06
Speaker
Stanley.
00:19:07
Speaker
He does.
00:19:07
Speaker
He holds...
00:19:09
Speaker
I don't need to get into it.
00:19:10
Speaker
He does some stupid product placement.
00:19:12
Speaker
It's hilarious.
00:19:13
Speaker
He was good.
00:19:14
Speaker
He was good.
00:19:15
Speaker
I liked him at first.
00:19:16
Speaker
Didn't like him later.
00:19:17
Speaker
But then I came around to him in the end.
00:19:19
Speaker
I think he's reflected on some of the errors of his ways.
00:19:23
Speaker
Yeah, that was nice.
00:19:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:24
Speaker
But he's the liberal front runner.
00:19:26
Speaker
He's American.
00:19:28
Speaker
John Lithgow's character is also American.
00:19:30
Speaker
That is.
00:19:31
Speaker
Americans don't have accents.
00:19:32
Speaker
That's how it be.
00:19:33
Speaker
That's how it is.
00:19:34
Speaker
That's our blessing and curse.
00:19:37
Speaker
When people hear us, they're like, wow, I didn't know that people could sound like nothing.
00:19:42
Speaker
And then we just don't sound cool.
00:19:44
Speaker
Yeah, because we sound like nothing.
00:19:47
Speaker
There was something on Instagram.
00:19:48
Speaker
I wish I could find this person again, but it's like a dialect coach or something who's like, I love American accents and nobody gives American accents the credit that they deserve.
00:19:56
Speaker
But here's the things that I love about the American accent.
00:19:59
Speaker
And I can't find their account again, but they were just like,
00:20:02
Speaker
They were like picking different American accents and being like, these are the little things.
00:20:05
Speaker
Was this person British or something?
00:20:06
Speaker
I think they were, or maybe Irish.
00:20:08
Speaker
It was sweet.
00:20:09
Speaker
Cute Irish person loving us.
00:20:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:11
Speaker
I like that.
00:20:12
Speaker
It was nice.
00:20:13
Speaker
So you have those two.
00:20:14
Speaker
You have...
00:20:18
Speaker
adiami man you remember this well i just watched it today it's a refresh it's been like a whole day since i watched it so it's harder eight seven hours six six seven eight hours somewhere like that adiami who is the uh african uh front runner um who's also very conservative but he's not really with a conservative party um and then you have
00:20:39
Speaker
Oh, I'm going to forget his name.
00:20:40
Speaker
This is the one I'm not going to remember.
00:20:41
Speaker
But you have an Italian man.
00:20:43
Speaker
Big beard.
00:20:44
Speaker
Big beard Italian man.
00:20:46
Speaker
Got a big red coat.
00:20:47
Speaker
Got as the people knows, he's a racist.
00:20:49
Speaker
That's true.
00:20:51
Speaker
He's like...
00:20:52
Speaker
ultra conservative to the point of like... It's a little cartoonish.
00:20:56
Speaker
It's a little cartoonish.
00:20:58
Speaker
I want to know if there's people... I'm sure some of the viewpoints he's representing are out there.
00:21:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:03
Speaker
But I want to know if there's people out there that encapsulate all of those viewpoints in one.
00:21:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:07
Speaker
It could be unfair.
00:21:08
Speaker
It could be, yes.
00:21:10
Speaker
But he's like... But he's like... Straw man?
00:21:12
Speaker
It could be.
00:21:12
Speaker
Big fat straw man?
00:21:13
Speaker
Yes.
00:21:15
Speaker
I think it could be a straw man, but I also think because Adeyami is theologically conservative and is also such an empathetic character, I think it maybe gets away with it.
00:21:25
Speaker
Because we had a better conservative.
00:21:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:28
Speaker
So then you kind of have two where you have like a really bad version of like the liberal side with John Lithgow and a really bad conservative with Mr. Italian Man.
00:21:36
Speaker
Right.
00:21:37
Speaker
And then two better versions of those who are actually more spiritually grounded when push comes to shove when they get down to it by the end of the film.
00:21:45
Speaker
Right, right.
00:21:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:47
Speaker
But Mr. Italian Man is like, it would be better if the mass...
00:21:52
Speaker
No, Bellini was the... That's an actual guy.
00:21:55
Speaker
We already said him.
00:21:56
Speaker
Oh, we did.
00:21:57
Speaker
He's Stanley Tucci.
00:22:00
Speaker
All these names are confusing.
00:22:01
Speaker
People are going to be like, John, stop telling me.
00:22:03
Speaker
Fettuccine.
00:22:03
Speaker
We'll call him Fettuccine.
00:22:05
Speaker
So Fettuccine is like, I think the mash should be spoken in Latin again because that was better.
00:22:11
Speaker
I think the Pope should be Italian because why not?
00:22:14
Speaker
Italians are amazing.
00:22:14
Speaker
Why not Italians?
00:22:15
Speaker
Which I mean, they are.
00:22:18
Speaker
And then he's like, also, I think it'd be great if there was a holy war again.
00:22:23
Speaker
Let's do some wars.
00:22:23
Speaker
Let's do some warring.
00:22:25
Speaker
Let's persecute because we're being persecuted.
00:22:27
Speaker
Yeah, man.
00:22:28
Speaker
So the correct Christian response is to persecute back.
00:22:33
Speaker
Which he doesn't reveal until like right before the climax, which is an intense scene.
00:22:38
Speaker
They didn't like it when he said that.
00:22:40
Speaker
No, they didn't.
00:22:44
Speaker
And then Cardinal Lawrence is voted for a couple of times.
00:22:46
Speaker
But so these are the main sort of players.
00:22:48
Speaker
And he's like, there's all these political people vying for power.
00:22:53
Speaker
And for their agenda.
00:22:54
Speaker
And there's controversy.
00:22:55
Speaker
And there's controversy.
00:22:56
Speaker
There's secrets.
00:22:57
Speaker
There's secrets.
00:22:57
Speaker
He's like finding out about these people.
00:22:59
Speaker
He's a little detective boy.
00:23:00
Speaker
And he's just like, I'm trying to just, A, out of love and respect for the Pope who I knew well and who I think entrusted me with this and B, out of service to God.
00:23:09
Speaker
I am trying my best to run this in such a way that the person that God wants to be Pope is Pope.
00:23:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:18
Speaker
And my gosh, I related to his struggle.
00:23:20
Speaker
It was great.
00:23:22
Speaker
Did you?
00:23:22
Speaker
I did.
00:23:23
Speaker
We'll talk about that in a little bit.
00:23:25
Speaker
I can see that.
00:23:26
Speaker
I can see him.
00:23:26
Speaker
He's like your spirit animal.
00:23:27
Speaker
I think Ralph Fiennes is my spirit animal.
00:23:30
Speaker
What?
00:23:31
Speaker
We found him.
00:23:32
Speaker
We found him.
00:23:33
Speaker
But it's just so fascinating.
00:23:34
Speaker
But the line that I love that I think encapsulates the conflict of the movie is he's talking with Stanley Tucci, who's sort of his...
Liberal vs. Traditional Theology
00:23:42
Speaker
They're like- That's Stanley, he was all like, guys, I don't wanna be Pope.
00:23:47
Speaker
Don't even vote for me, I don't wanna be Pope.
00:23:51
Speaker
And then later he's like, of course I wanna be Pope.
00:23:54
Speaker
Everybody wants to be Pope.
00:23:55
Speaker
Everyone wants to be Pope.
00:23:57
Speaker
But then he has this really nice moment, I'm jumping ahead in the plot.
00:24:01
Speaker
But there's this line between the two of them because Stanley Tucci sees himself as the best possible victor to preserve like a liberal theology in the church and not go backwards as he would see it.
00:24:14
Speaker
And some of the liberal stuff was surprisingly.
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:18
Speaker
Okay.
00:24:18
Speaker
So the Vatican II stuff.
00:24:19
Speaker
Right.
00:24:20
Speaker
Which I'm not a liberal guy, but some of this means liberal.
00:24:25
Speaker
Some of his stuff was more liberal than me, but some of the like, we don't have to talk in Latin.
00:24:30
Speaker
I'm like, I'm good with that.
00:24:31
Speaker
I like that.
00:24:32
Speaker
I like being able to read.
00:24:33
Speaker
I think part of Vatican II was like increased biblical literacy.
00:24:37
Speaker
I think so.
00:24:37
Speaker
That sounds good.
00:24:38
Speaker
I think there was a lot of good in Vatican II.
00:24:43
Speaker
But he's like...
00:24:47
Speaker
Oh, I remember what it is.
00:24:48
Speaker
So there's this big controversy that's possibly going to come out.
00:24:51
Speaker
And Stanley Tucci's like, this cannot come out.
00:24:54
Speaker
It's going to jeopardize our cause.
00:24:55
Speaker
It's going to tarnish the curate, which I think is like the order of the cardinals.
00:25:01
Speaker
And we don't need that right now because we need to be united and we need to be able to push this agenda forward in the church because it's what the church needs.
00:25:08
Speaker
And Ralph Fiennes goes, I thought we were here to serve God, not the curate.
Serving God vs. Church Politics
00:25:14
Speaker
And I'm like, that's a great line.
00:25:15
Speaker
That was good.
00:25:16
Speaker
And then Stanley Tucci comes back and is like, don't be naive.
00:25:18
Speaker
Don't be naive.
00:25:18
Speaker
Like, that is a naive idea to just try and serve God amidst all of this.
00:25:23
Speaker
But then Stanley Tucci sort of backs back up on him.
00:25:26
Speaker
He does.
00:25:27
Speaker
He is good.
00:25:28
Speaker
I love Rafe.
00:25:29
Speaker
But...
00:25:30
Speaker
Yeah, so, okay, I've given, like, a 30,000-foot view.
00:25:33
Speaker
I've rambled a whole lot.
00:25:33
Speaker
I don't know.
00:25:34
Speaker
What were your thoughts on it?
00:25:35
Speaker
Tell me your thoughts so I stop rambling.
00:25:36
Speaker
I thought it was cinematically interesting.
00:25:38
Speaker
Oh, yes.
00:25:38
Speaker
The cinematic language was great.
00:25:40
Speaker
I have a lot of thoughts on it.
00:25:41
Speaker
Like, the sound design made it very, like... My wife Ellie pointed out how, like, they're really showing the dichotomy between, like...
00:25:52
Speaker
The holy, mysterious high things and the grungy everyday things.
00:25:58
Speaker
Right from the get-go.
00:25:59
Speaker
Right from the start.
00:25:59
Speaker
When the Pope dies, they're like... Cracking knuckles.
00:26:02
Speaker
Yeah, they're trying to get the papal ring off of his finger.
00:26:06
Speaker
And it's just so... It's one of the most uncomfortable shots I've seen in a while of this...
00:26:11
Speaker
just trying to get this ring off of this dead man's finger that has swollen and will not get off.
00:26:15
Speaker
And then they get it off and then it goes right into the ritual.
00:26:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:19
Speaker
That's just crazy.
00:26:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:20
Speaker
And you have like the Pope's like smoking and stuff.
00:26:22
Speaker
I know.
00:26:23
Speaker
Not the Pope's.
00:26:25
Speaker
There's many Pope's.
00:26:26
Speaker
This was a very controversial movie.
00:26:28
Speaker
They were like, let's have what if all the apostles were Pope's?
00:26:33
Speaker
Something.
00:26:35
Speaker
But yeah, just but like very much like
00:26:38
Speaker
this like high church mysterious thing mixed with just like a lot of like grunge of the environment.
00:26:45
Speaker
And they really played up in the sound design, grungy sound effects, like little big hits on the microphone of like doors closing and different things.
00:26:56
Speaker
And one of my favorite visual motifs too was the, the way they used light and darkness and black and white in the movie.
00:27:04
Speaker
Um,
00:27:06
Speaker
which a video essay I had watched had pointed it out initially that it's very claustrophobic once they cloister.
00:27:15
Speaker
And then there's a moment where light breaks through in a very big way, which we can talk about in a second.
00:27:19
Speaker
That was interesting.
00:27:22
Speaker
And from then on, it's like this breath of fresh air and like the presence of God is a lot more visible in there.
00:27:27
Speaker
And I feel like that's shown visually a lot through white and light, which is also interesting because every time that they vote, if they haven't reached the decision for a pope yet, they'll put up black smoke.
00:27:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:39
Speaker
Once they have reached the decision for the pope, they put up white smoke.
00:27:42
Speaker
So there's an interesting visual motif throughout of darkness and light, black and white.
00:27:47
Speaker
And I think you can see when it's more oppressive and you either can feel less of God in your situation or the characters are not doing as well at connecting with God or seeking God's will based on
00:28:00
Speaker
How is that?
00:28:00
Speaker
And like right before they make their final decision on who the Pope should be, they're all walking down in white umbrellas and the screen is just kind of covered in white.
00:28:10
Speaker
And it's like, oh, they've all found their purity and their holiness again.
00:28:12
Speaker
They've all gotten back.
00:28:14
Speaker
Oh, good point.
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah, it has a lot of interesting things to say about man's will versus God's will and like our ambition versus God's design.
00:28:27
Speaker
But I think the thing that struck me most was like the aspect of mystery in it.
00:28:36
Speaker
There's right at the start of the conclave.
00:28:40
Speaker
Hang on.
00:28:40
Speaker
If I start on this, I'm going to go for like a thousand hours because I'm going to talk about this whole thing and it's going to go long.
00:28:45
Speaker
So I want to ask you if you have any other thoughts and then I'll come back.
00:28:48
Speaker
Oh, I'm not going to leave it, but I'm like, I'm monopolizing the conversation.
00:28:54
Speaker
I want to hear more from you of what you thought.
00:28:57
Speaker
If you have more thoughts.
00:28:59
Speaker
Maybe as we go through.
00:29:01
Speaker
Interject, interrupt me.
00:29:03
Speaker
Throw water in my face and say, shut up, John.
00:29:06
Speaker
John.
00:29:07
Speaker
Come on, man.
00:29:08
Speaker
I wanted to say that.
00:29:09
Speaker
Okay, I'll talk about this part, and then I'll talk about how I relate to Lawrence, because that will pick up on that thread that we were talking about last episode.
00:29:17
Speaker
We're going to pick up the thread.
00:29:18
Speaker
We're going to pick up the thread.
00:29:20
Speaker
I wrote it down.
00:29:20
Speaker
I think you have more thoughts about this one.
00:29:23
Speaker
I just loved it so much.
00:29:24
Speaker
Is it something?
00:29:25
Speaker
It's...
00:29:27
Speaker
So also side note, before I jump into this, one of the reasons I loved it so much is I think it is a movie that treated the Christian faith in our day to day life and a relationship with God with the weight that I feel it with.
00:29:40
Speaker
And I have, I don't think I have ever, especially not in Christian movies, ever seen it accurately depicted with that amount of weight.
00:29:50
Speaker
Like it felt like these decisions that were spiritual decisions were life and death.
00:29:57
Speaker
And the artistry behind it was just so, so behind and supporting that, that I was like, wow, this is how it feels to me to navigate these spiritual situations, to navigate.
00:30:10
Speaker
We talked last episode about difficult situations in people's lives and figuring out how to navigate those as a Christian.
00:30:16
Speaker
And like, this is how it feels to me, this heavy, this weighty, sometimes this oppressive.
00:30:22
Speaker
It's like, I don't think that,
00:30:25
Speaker
the decisions we make in the Christian faith and the way we walk out that faith has ever, to my knowledge on film, been treated with so much weight and such high stakes as in this film.
00:30:38
Speaker
And obviously there are very high stakes in this film.
00:30:42
Speaker
So mystery.
00:30:46
Speaker
Near the start of the film, there is a random cardinal who rolls up.
00:30:51
Speaker
and chuck his name's chuck um oh darn what is his name i don't remember but he's mexican and was uh
00:31:00
Speaker
ordained as a cardinal in pectorum, I think is the word that they used, which basically means in secret by the Pope, because his ministry is to be in Afghanistan, one of the highest persecuted areas of the church.
00:31:12
Speaker
But the previous Pope that died is like, well, I think Afghanistan deserves a cardinal because the ministry going on there is that important.
00:31:19
Speaker
So this is the man I'm choosing.
00:31:20
Speaker
I'm doing it in secret so that it's not public, so that he's safe and protected.
00:31:24
Speaker
And so he just rolls up and they're just like,
00:31:27
Speaker
A random cardinal appeared.
00:31:29
Speaker
We don't know who he is.
00:31:31
Speaker
But he has all the documents to, like, certify that he is one.
00:31:35
Speaker
Guess he's a cardinal.
00:31:36
Speaker
I guess he's a cardinal.
00:31:37
Speaker
And so they're, like, going to lunch.
00:31:39
Speaker
And Lawrence is like, hey, all you other cardinals, I'm introducing this new cardinal.
00:31:43
Speaker
Please pray for us.
00:31:44
Speaker
And immediately he has this lovely prayer.
00:31:46
Speaker
He has a nice prayer.
00:31:47
Speaker
He does the, like...
00:31:49
Speaker
the classic Catholic prayer for a meal.
00:31:52
Speaker
And then they all start to sit down.
00:31:54
Speaker
And he's like, no, I've got more.
00:31:55
Speaker
I just got a few more sweet things to say.
00:31:57
Speaker
And he doesn't make a big deal out of it.
00:31:58
Speaker
He just keeps going.
00:31:59
Speaker
No, because he's just like, I'm a real believer that cares about people.
00:32:04
Speaker
And so he prays.
00:32:05
Speaker
It's just a beautiful prayer.
00:32:08
Speaker
Simple.
00:32:09
Speaker
And he's just sort of in the background for this.
00:32:11
Speaker
He's an important character, but he's in the background for most of it.
00:32:14
Speaker
And he thinks that our main guy should be Pope.
00:32:17
Speaker
Yes, he thinks Lawrence should be Pope.
00:32:18
Speaker
He votes for him several times.
00:32:20
Speaker
And Lawrence is like, stop voting for him!
00:32:21
Speaker
Stop it!
00:32:22
Speaker
No!
00:32:22
Speaker
He's like, no.
00:32:24
Speaker
I'm going to vote for you.
00:32:26
Speaker
You're the guy.
00:32:27
Speaker
Yes.
00:32:29
Speaker
So... I guess maybe I am.
00:32:31
Speaker
Maybe I am.
00:32:32
Speaker
Dang it.
00:32:33
Speaker
Um...
00:32:36
Speaker
And then Lawrence gives a beautiful homily about faith and doubt.
00:32:42
Speaker
And he is wrestling with doubts in his own life about prayer.
00:32:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:50
Speaker
There's an interesting discussion about- It didn't get much specific other than that.
00:32:53
Speaker
It didn't.
00:32:55
Speaker
But I thought it was nice that it wasn't like a doubting God's existence.
00:32:59
Speaker
It's just, oh, he's struggling just with prayer.
00:33:01
Speaker
Okay.
00:33:01
Speaker
There was a lot of questions about doubt, but it was never about God.
00:33:04
Speaker
And that was another line that I really loved.
00:33:07
Speaker
was from Stanley Tucci talking about the Pope and his doubt.
00:33:11
Speaker
And he's talking to Ralph Fiennes and it's like, the Pope doubted too, because they're talking about their doubts.
00:33:16
Speaker
Yeah, I guess even the Pope, if the Pope can doubt in God then, and then Stanley said.
00:33:21
Speaker
It was never in God, but he doubted the church.
00:33:24
Speaker
Yep.
00:33:25
Speaker
And I'm like, oof, that hit hard right now.
00:33:28
Speaker
You know, because there's a lot of churches that I'm like, they're not doing church very well.
00:33:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:31
Speaker
They don't seem to be in the body of Christ very well.
00:33:35
Speaker
Um,
00:33:36
Speaker
But I think a lot of times that was, again, just a nice, beautiful thing that you're not seeing culture this day.
00:33:42
Speaker
Yeah, these filmmakers didn't go for like, let's have some, let's have some atheist popes up here.
00:33:47
Speaker
Right, it's like, instead it was like, no, God is important.
00:33:52
Speaker
We humans are flawed.
00:33:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:54
Speaker
And the church is gonna screw up and has and will, and that's awful and should not be minimized.
00:34:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:01
Speaker
But it doesn't mean that God is not as, still as, as, as,
00:34:06
Speaker
real and powerful and gracious.
00:34:10
Speaker
You don't have to doubt God.
00:34:11
Speaker
You can doubt the church.
00:34:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:13
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:34:14
Speaker
Even if, you know, I'm Anglican.
00:34:16
Speaker
I think the church has an important role.
00:34:18
Speaker
We're pretty high church.
00:34:19
Speaker
We think the church traditions are not like ordained from God, but that they matter.
00:34:24
Speaker
You know, I like the church, but it's fine to doubt the church.
00:34:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:29
Speaker
The church messes up, but you don't have to, that doesn't mean you have to doubt God.
00:34:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:34
Speaker
That was beautiful to see.
00:34:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:37
Speaker
So Lawrence is wrestling with his doubts throughout, and it's all very subtextual.
00:34:40
Speaker
Like, I don't know exactly what he's doubting.
00:34:42
Speaker
I just know he's struggling with prayer.
00:34:45
Speaker
And so he gives this homily to all these cardinals to sort of set the tone.
00:34:52
Speaker
And he talks about...
00:34:55
Speaker
He says, I hope that we have a Pope who doubts because if we didn't have doubt, there would be no need for faith.
00:35:03
Speaker
And if we didn't have the tension between faith and doubt, there would be no mystery.
00:35:08
Speaker
What did you think of that?
00:35:09
Speaker
I loved it.
00:35:10
Speaker
You liked it.
00:35:10
Speaker
I
Faith and Doubt Discussion
00:35:11
Speaker
did like it.
00:35:11
Speaker
I wasn't sure what to think of it.
00:35:15
Speaker
I, because I don't think that doubt, I think he's right in that doubt is in some sense,
00:35:25
Speaker
part of faith.
00:35:26
Speaker
It's part of the wrestling?
00:35:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:28
Speaker
Because we who wrestle with God.
00:35:29
Speaker
Faith is leaping over the chasm of doubt.
00:35:34
Speaker
Not to say that doubt isn't there, not to not recognize it.
00:35:37
Speaker
If you're jumping over it, you still have to recognize it and do the jump, right?
00:35:40
Speaker
But
00:35:42
Speaker
But if you don't have doubt.
00:35:43
Speaker
Well, if you don't have doubt, then I don't know.
00:35:45
Speaker
Is that nice?
00:35:47
Speaker
I mean, yeah.
00:35:47
Speaker
Well, okay.
00:35:49
Speaker
Sometimes I don't doubt.
00:35:51
Speaker
This is going to be a weird conversation because I'm going to talk about ways in which I'm relating to Lawrence and some of his doubt.
00:35:56
Speaker
And I'm also going to talk now about how sometimes I don't doubt.
00:36:00
Speaker
It's fine.
00:36:02
Speaker
I'm a complex individual.
00:36:03
Speaker
Yeah, man.
00:36:06
Speaker
Like...
00:36:11
Speaker
Sometimes I wish I doubted a little bit more than I do because, and I don't know, maybe this is unhealthy of me.
00:36:22
Speaker
Maybe I've just had a tragic life, but, but a lot of times I'm like, everything could blow up and you know, would I be grumpy?
00:36:32
Speaker
Yeah, but I'd probably be fine with God.
00:36:34
Speaker
He kind of knows what's best.
00:36:35
Speaker
Like, I'm not going to doubt that, you know?
00:36:38
Speaker
And I'm like, that seems inhuman of me.
00:36:41
Speaker
Oh, I see.
00:36:42
Speaker
And so, and in some, in some sense, I think if you had a bigger love for people, you would doubt the pain that comes from God.
00:36:52
Speaker
I don't even know if it's that, like, it makes me feel like my relationship with God in some sense is just robotic where I'm just like, yeah, I'm just always doing this.
00:37:01
Speaker
I see.
00:37:01
Speaker
I think there's some dynamism that you get from doubt.
00:37:04
Speaker
I think there's some things you learn from doubt in that wrestling.
00:37:09
Speaker
And I think
00:37:11
Speaker
And I- With the goal of- Of greater faith.
00:37:15
Speaker
Overcoming, greater faith, yeah.
00:37:17
Speaker
And I think there's some sense where maybe we'll wrestle with our doubts our entire walk.
00:37:22
Speaker
But if we cling to the faith- Yeah.
00:37:27
Speaker
Like there's something there are solid things about God to hang on to whilst we have.
00:37:33
Speaker
Right.
00:37:34
Speaker
Right.
00:37:34
Speaker
And so you want to be hanging on with that one hand.
00:37:37
Speaker
Right.
00:37:38
Speaker
Well, and like I liken it to my theology of the Eucharist, which is that God is more Jesus specifically is really present in this bread and wine.
00:37:47
Speaker
that it is in some sense really his body and blood, even if that doesn't I don't believe in transubstantiation, which is that it is physically turned into that.
00:37:55
Speaker
But I believe that he said that I believe he said, if you eat my body and drink of my blood or unless you do this, then you have no part in me.
00:38:03
Speaker
And I don't understand how that can happen.
00:38:06
Speaker
But what I can cling on to is Jesus's words that he's present in that.
00:38:10
Speaker
This is this is a specific theological example to me where I've seen that.
00:38:13
Speaker
You can extrapolate that out further.
00:38:15
Speaker
So do that work yourselves, guys, and make it more general.
00:38:17
Speaker
Work out your own self.
00:38:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:20
Speaker
You.
00:38:21
Speaker
Good quote.
00:38:22
Speaker
I like that.
00:38:26
Speaker
But it's like, okay, I maybe don't get this.
00:38:28
Speaker
Or some Sundays I'll roll up and I'll eat it and I'll drink some wine.
00:38:31
Speaker
And I'm like, well, it feels like all I've done right now is eat some bread and drink some wine.
00:38:35
Speaker
Was it even good bread?
00:38:37
Speaker
I like communion bread.
00:38:39
Speaker
Yeah, right.
00:38:39
Speaker
I don't know why, but I do.
00:38:42
Speaker
But then I'm like, okay, maybe I didn't feel it or whatever, but God said he's there.
00:38:48
Speaker
So I believe he's there.
00:38:50
Speaker
Yeah, man.
00:38:52
Speaker
I think there's a great value in that.
00:38:55
Speaker
Sometimes I wish I did that.
00:38:56
Speaker
I think the people who doubt can be some of the strongest believers and the most empathetic and the best at sort of reaching people and navigating things with
Empathy and Faith Struggles
00:39:04
Speaker
them.
00:39:04
Speaker
Right.
00:39:04
Speaker
Because they're not just Pollyannas.
00:39:07
Speaker
Right.
00:39:07
Speaker
Because it can be, I have to do a lot of work to empathize with somebody who's doubting God's nature.
00:39:17
Speaker
And I don't like that I have to do that.
00:39:20
Speaker
somebody who's doubting God's goodness, because I just don't.
00:39:24
Speaker
And I don't know why I try and count it as a gift because it's nice.
00:39:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:29
Speaker
But I just don't.
00:39:31
Speaker
And I don't like that because then if I'm missionally trying to reach somebody, they're like, man, do I how do I even know that God's good?
00:39:37
Speaker
And I'm just like, because he is.
00:39:38
Speaker
That's a stupid question.
00:39:40
Speaker
I'm like, that's not a very kind mission.
00:39:42
Speaker
I think that is a gift, though, especially if you recognize it.
00:39:46
Speaker
But it is like this two-edged sword where, in some sense, that's great that I've never doubted God's goodness of character and goodness towards me.
00:39:56
Speaker
But on the flip side, those people who have doubted that and have had to wrestle with that and go through that have...
00:40:04
Speaker
Some other areas of their faith deepened that I may not.
00:40:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:09
Speaker
And I've had this sort of...
00:40:11
Speaker
Does that make sense?
00:40:13
Speaker
Yeah, it does.
00:40:14
Speaker
It's like, oh, I wish I had a more interesting testimony kind of thing.
00:40:19
Speaker
But then it's like, I have to just remember that God is the author of all of our stories, including the struggle we have with not having an interesting story.
00:40:31
Speaker
And that there are struggles with that.
00:40:34
Speaker
And those are...
00:40:36
Speaker
don't sound interesting, but those are struggles because we don't get maybe that as clear of the night and day difference that someone who was brought out of a life of drugs and stuff like my dad or whatever.
00:40:51
Speaker
But God writes our stories and he's in charge of it and he knows what we need to work through towards glory, towards sanctification, even if it's this inner...
00:41:06
Speaker
weird thing like you're talking about yeah yeah yeah it's cool so this i think there's this thread of mystery with god that weaves throughout and i think i just think the film wonderfully portrays god's presence because i don't know there is one scene where i think you can pinpoint and be like right there that's god um but most of the time it's just sort of there's just sort of this air that
00:41:32
Speaker
He's there somewhere.
00:41:33
Speaker
He's doing something.
00:41:35
Speaker
It's mysterious.
00:41:36
Speaker
He's taking us somewhere, but we don't really know where it is.
Surprising Papal Choice
00:41:41
Speaker
So eventually it gets to the point where our candidates for Pope have been eliminated one by one because of scandals or this or that.
00:41:48
Speaker
And it's basically down to Cardinal Lawrence is the only liberal option.
00:41:56
Speaker
So it's Cardinal Lawrence or it's Mr. Fettuccine.
00:41:59
Speaker
Mr. Fettuccine.
00:42:00
Speaker
Who is like...
00:42:01
Speaker
Pretty racist and not great.
00:42:03
Speaker
He's like, can you imagine if we had an African as a pope?
00:42:06
Speaker
Like, well, screw you, mister.
00:42:08
Speaker
Have you read the theology of Augustine?
00:42:10
Speaker
Then you'll like Africans.
00:42:11
Speaker
Sex to be you.
00:42:12
Speaker
Probably didn't.
00:42:15
Speaker
Wow, he's missing out.
00:42:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:17
Speaker
He's like the foundation of the Western church.
00:42:19
Speaker
Church?
00:42:20
Speaker
Church.
00:42:21
Speaker
Church is the foundation of the Western church.
00:42:26
Speaker
Well, other than Jesus.
00:42:27
Speaker
Theological interpretation.
00:42:30
Speaker
Anyways.
00:42:33
Speaker
And Lawrence is like, maybe I should be Pope.
00:42:39
Speaker
Yeah?
00:42:39
Speaker
And I was kinda like, yeah.
00:42:41
Speaker
I was too!
00:42:42
Speaker
You go be Pope, buddy.
00:42:43
Speaker
I was like, yeah, you're the right choice.
00:42:45
Speaker
And write your name in.
00:42:46
Speaker
Mr. Mexican man who's been supporting you.
00:42:47
Speaker
Don't be false humility.
00:42:48
Speaker
Write your name in.
00:42:49
Speaker
Yeah, write it in.
00:42:50
Speaker
Own it.
00:42:50
Speaker
Did you notice he wrote it with worse handwriting than the other times he wrote it?
00:42:54
Speaker
Oh, that's cool.
00:42:55
Speaker
The other names were just very, like, I think Nate Script or something like that, but his name was just kind of uneven, blocky letters.
00:43:04
Speaker
Oh, that's cool.
00:43:05
Speaker
That's neat.
00:43:07
Speaker
Yeah, so it's one of, I think, the most exquisitely directed sequences in the film, which is saying something because it's full of exquisitely directed sequences.
00:43:14
Speaker
When he breaks the seal, that's a great, he breaks the seal into the Pope's room at one point, and that just has so much weight to it.
00:43:20
Speaker
He's getting sneaky.
00:43:20
Speaker
So great, he's getting sneaky.
00:43:21
Speaker
But he's like, okay, I'm going to vote for myself because I think it's what's right.
00:43:25
Speaker
I think I should be Pope.
00:43:27
Speaker
And I think as an audience, you're kind of behind him.
00:43:29
Speaker
Yeah, you, man.
00:43:31
Speaker
You didn't want to be Pope.
00:43:32
Speaker
So he writes it.
00:43:33
Speaker
And he, like, screws his courage to the sticking post.
00:43:36
Speaker
Stuck right there.
00:43:37
Speaker
And he brings it up to where he's supposed to turn in his vote.
00:43:41
Speaker
And he says the thing that they say right before they cast their vote in the film.
00:43:44
Speaker
It's a cool thing they say.
00:43:45
Speaker
They do.
00:43:45
Speaker
It's like, I swear before...
00:43:48
Speaker
I think it's like before you and before God that this is this is truly who I believe should be pope.
00:43:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:55
Speaker
It's something to that effect.
00:43:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:56
Speaker
It's more elegant and cool and Italian or something.
00:44:00
Speaker
And he's like, I 100 percent believe that this is God's will.
00:44:04
Speaker
Sets the ballot down.
00:44:05
Speaker
As soon as his ballot slides in, the Sistine Chapel explodes.
00:44:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:12
Speaker
And light pours in.
00:44:14
Speaker
Yeah, because they boarded up the window so that these droppers couldn't listen to the glass.
00:44:19
Speaker
Yes, that's a very important detail.
00:44:20
Speaker
So this room has just been oppressive and dark this whole time.
00:44:24
Speaker
And then he's like, I think I know what God's will is, and it's for me to be Pope.
00:44:29
Speaker
Puts it in, boom, light shining through.
00:44:32
Speaker
And it's like...
00:44:33
Speaker
Did you know right away what that meant?
00:44:35
Speaker
Because I was like, does that mean yes or does that mean no?
00:44:40
Speaker
I don't know if I knew right away.
00:44:42
Speaker
I'm trying to think back.
00:44:45
Speaker
I think I thought no because something about it didn't feel good to me.
00:44:49
Speaker
Oh.
00:44:49
Speaker
Something about the filmmaking I was like, this feels more dreadful than inspiring.
00:44:56
Speaker
Right.
00:44:58
Speaker
And there was just this silence that hung over it.
00:45:02
Speaker
And light streams in for the first time.
00:45:04
Speaker
And you find out- It was because of a bomb.
00:45:06
Speaker
That it was a suicide bomber.
00:45:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:08
Speaker
Blew it up.
00:45:10
Speaker
And then Mr. Fettuccine is like, see, this is why we need a holy war.
00:45:13
Speaker
We gotta get those guys who blow us up.
00:45:16
Speaker
And people are like, maybe not that far.
00:45:20
Speaker
And then our fun surprise cardinal stands up and gives, I think, just such a beautiful speech about the church.
00:45:28
Speaker
He's very unpolitical either way, right?
00:45:30
Speaker
He's very unpolitical, but he is like, you're calling for a war, but I've actually seen war.
00:45:34
Speaker
And what you're talking about is not going after this suicide bomber or this car bomber, but these women and children and men.
00:45:42
Speaker
That's what you're talking about.
00:45:44
Speaker
And we're talking about everything that the church has been, but what we do now and how we move forward.
00:45:52
Speaker
is what the church is.
00:45:54
Speaker
And it, and it, I, maybe this was subtextual.
00:45:57
Speaker
Maybe this was just how it, how I took it, but it felt like we're fighting over all of these things in the church, but what if we just did what Jesus told the church to do and move forward?
00:46:12
Speaker
And we sought to make disciples of nations.
00:46:14
Speaker
We sought to care for the poor, the widow, the oppressed, the foreigner, the orphan, all of these.
00:46:19
Speaker
and just do that and look forward and do that.
00:46:22
Speaker
And he just says that and sits down and it's stunned silence.
00:46:26
Speaker
They're stunned.
00:46:27
Speaker
They're stunned.
00:46:28
Speaker
We're so silent.
00:46:29
Speaker
We are very, why are we so silent?
00:46:31
Speaker
Because it was a good speech.
00:46:32
Speaker
Nice speech, dude.
00:46:33
Speaker
And so then they all come with their white umbrellas and it's like, oh, it seems like, and you're like, oh, I wonder, I wonder if this is going to be, oh.
00:46:40
Speaker
And then they vote for Pope again, and you hear Lawrence a few times, and it's like, oh, I wonder if it's Lawrence.
00:46:45
Speaker
We like Lawrence.
00:46:46
Speaker
We finally get Lawrence in, and then you just get this montage of people clapping, and then you see Lawrence clapping.
00:46:51
Speaker
He's not clapping for himself.
00:46:52
Speaker
He's not clapping for himself, and you see that this surprise cardinal was named Pope.
00:46:58
Speaker
Pope Phil.
00:46:59
Speaker
Pope Phil.
00:47:01
Speaker
And he chooses the name Innocent, which I think is lovely.
00:47:03
Speaker
That is sweet.
00:47:04
Speaker
That is sweet.
00:47:06
Speaker
And then controversy happens once again.
00:47:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:09
Speaker
This is the most controversial thing.
00:47:10
Speaker
Maybe not even necessary, but it was interesting.
00:47:12
Speaker
It was interesting.
00:47:14
Speaker
I liked it.
00:47:15
Speaker
We can talk about why in a second.
00:47:17
Speaker
And then we can talk about how I relate to Lawrence.
00:47:19
Speaker
This is getting to be a long episode, but I think it's great.
00:47:22
Speaker
I just have so much to say about this movie.
00:47:24
Speaker
I love it.
00:47:28
Speaker
Lawrence, Cardinal Lawrence, good old Rafe, has had this like assistant that's been like going out into the world.
00:47:34
Speaker
Chad.
00:47:35
Speaker
Chad is his name?
00:47:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:36
Speaker
Good old Chad.
00:47:37
Speaker
Chad's been going out because he's sequestered.
00:47:39
Speaker
He cannot go out.
00:47:40
Speaker
So he's like, I need you to research this.
00:47:42
Speaker
You're my Watson.
00:47:43
Speaker
Yes.
00:47:44
Speaker
Because he's like, there's all these like...
00:47:47
Speaker
things that are maybe happening and I need to find out because if these people are unqualified to be Pope, they should not be Pope.
00:47:53
Speaker
I like when there was something that came up, he always went to the individual.
00:47:57
Speaker
He did.
00:47:57
Speaker
My favorite scene still was
00:48:00
Speaker
As far as going to the individual was still probably the one with that, the army, though.
00:48:04
Speaker
But I thought it was so beautiful.
00:48:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:06
Speaker
The African.
00:48:07
Speaker
Yeah, that was because it was there was a mistake 30 years ago in his past.
00:48:11
Speaker
And he was like, yes, I made a mistake, but I was a different man.
00:48:13
Speaker
And there's grace.
00:48:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:15
Speaker
And I believe that God's calling me to the papacy.
00:48:19
Speaker
And he's like, you're you you won't be pope.
00:48:22
Speaker
It was a sexual scandal.
00:48:23
Speaker
And he's like, not the worst sexual scandal there could be.
00:48:26
Speaker
No sexual scandal.
00:48:29
Speaker
And he's like, the church will not elect somebody who's had a sexual scandal in their past.
00:48:33
Speaker
We are trying to get away from that.
00:48:36
Speaker
And it's just this raw scene as this man's hopes are just breaking down.
00:48:41
Speaker
I wanted to be Pope.
00:48:42
Speaker
I know.
00:48:42
Speaker
And at that point, I was like, he'd be a great Pope.
00:48:45
Speaker
I love an African Pope.
00:48:46
Speaker
I'd be so behind an African Pope, my dude.
00:48:48
Speaker
That would be cool.
00:48:49
Speaker
Right?
00:48:49
Speaker
I've never seen that.
00:48:50
Speaker
I know.
00:48:50
Speaker
It'd be so cool.
00:48:51
Speaker
Have we?
00:48:52
Speaker
No, I don't think so.
00:48:53
Speaker
I haven't.
00:48:54
Speaker
I have not.
00:48:55
Speaker
You neither?
00:48:56
Speaker
Oh, no.
00:48:56
Speaker
Oh.
00:49:00
Speaker
But he's like sobbing and breaking down and Lawrence is about to go and then he asks him to pray with him.
00:49:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:07
Speaker
And Lawrence is like, of course, insists down and prayers with him, even though he's having doubts about prayer.
00:49:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:12
Speaker
Huh.
00:49:12
Speaker
Anyways.
00:49:13
Speaker
Where were we?
00:49:14
Speaker
Scandal.
00:49:14
Speaker
Yes.
00:49:14
Speaker
So he has his Watson, Chad, who's going out to like do all this investigating and stuff.
00:49:21
Speaker
And there has been a question about what's the background of this cardinal.
00:49:24
Speaker
They've been finding things out about him.
00:49:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:27
Speaker
He had like a...
00:49:28
Speaker
He had like some health issues.
00:49:30
Speaker
He had a ministry toward women.
00:49:31
Speaker
But no, not health issues?
00:49:32
Speaker
Yeah, there was a health issue.
00:49:33
Speaker
He was sent to a clinic in Switzerland by the Pope to take care of a health issue that they didn't know about.
00:49:39
Speaker
And then he decided not to... He never ended up actually going through to the clinic.
00:49:48
Speaker
And the guy finally finds out what it is.
00:49:51
Speaker
And Ralph Fiennes goes to confront him.
00:49:53
Speaker
We haven't found
Intersex Pope Twist
00:49:54
Speaker
out yet.
00:49:54
Speaker
We don't know.
00:49:55
Speaker
And speaks to him.
00:49:55
Speaker
And...
00:49:57
Speaker
is clearly very disturbed and is like, we just elected the Pope, but he's got something wrong with them.
00:50:02
Speaker
He's got something wrong with them that the church maybe is not okay with.
00:50:05
Speaker
And he is like, you are about to be the most famous man in the world and one of the most important men in the world.
00:50:10
Speaker
You need to tell me what your situation is.
00:50:12
Speaker
And immediately this guy knows what it's about.
00:50:14
Speaker
So he asks for privacy and shares that
00:50:20
Speaker
the medical procedure that he was going to get would be a hysterectomy.
00:50:24
Speaker
What?
00:50:24
Speaker
To remove his uterus.
00:50:25
Speaker
I thought this was a guy.
00:50:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:28
Speaker
It's crazy.
00:50:29
Speaker
It is a guy.
00:50:29
Speaker
It is a guy.
00:50:30
Speaker
I'm okay with it because it's a guy.
00:50:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:35
Speaker
Not that I would, I think you could also, I think you could have a theology discussion.
00:50:39
Speaker
It's not just because he's a guy as opposed to being a girl.
00:50:43
Speaker
That's it.
00:50:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:45
Speaker
Hang on.
00:50:45
Speaker
Now I'm muddling my thing.
00:50:48
Speaker
Um,
00:50:50
Speaker
Because what it's adjacent to is the discussion about the transgender community, right?
00:50:58
Speaker
And so I don't know what the filmmakers were intending.
00:51:02
Speaker
But immediately, he has an intersex disorder.
00:51:05
Speaker
He was born with an intersex disorder.
00:51:07
Speaker
He thought he was a guy his whole life.
00:51:09
Speaker
He is a guy.
00:51:09
Speaker
He is a guy, but he has a uterus.
00:51:10
Speaker
He's got these extra parts.
00:51:12
Speaker
He's like a super.
00:51:12
Speaker
And a chromosome is messed up in there because that's what causes an intersex disorder is there's some weird chromosomal thing and then there's which intersex disorders can be anything.
00:51:21
Speaker
Balding can be an intersex disorder.
00:51:23
Speaker
Whoa.
00:51:23
Speaker
So yeah, I know I could, I could have an intersex disorder.
00:51:26
Speaker
Dude.
00:51:26
Speaker
I don't think I do.
00:51:27
Speaker
I think I just have male pattern baldness.
00:51:28
Speaker
Thanks.
00:51:29
Speaker
Okay.
00:51:30
Speaker
You think I could be the Pope if I turned Catholic?
00:51:32
Speaker
You might.
00:51:32
Speaker
You might like that.
00:51:34
Speaker
I don't want to be the Pope.
00:51:36
Speaker
Not me.
00:51:37
Speaker
You'd make a great Pope then.
00:51:38
Speaker
You didn't even want to be the Pope.
00:51:40
Speaker
Oh, stop.
00:51:42
Speaker
Who's making the Pope?
00:51:43
Speaker
But...
00:51:49
Speaker
It is this weird, uncomfortable place because it's really close to this current modern sort of theological squabble.
00:51:57
Speaker
But it's not there.
00:51:58
Speaker
I'm okay with it.
00:51:59
Speaker
But what I do like is that the person that in the story God chose as Pope is unexpected, is messy, is...
00:52:12
Speaker
is not able to be like... Picture perfect.
00:52:16
Speaker
Picture perfect and like pinned down to a box.
00:52:20
Speaker
And he has a very beautiful speech too because he's like, I thought about going and getting my uterus removed so that I would match my sex, what I essentially am.
00:52:31
Speaker
But...
00:52:33
Speaker
I felt weird modifying my body.
00:52:36
Speaker
I felt like that it might be a greater sin to tarnish God's handiwork than to change to map myself and all of my parts to being completely just male parts.
00:52:49
Speaker
I'm assuming he's got the male parts.
00:52:50
Speaker
Well, yes.
00:52:51
Speaker
Because he didn't know until he was like into his priesthood that this was a thing.
00:52:55
Speaker
And so, but I... Because he had such great guilt when he was like, I'm a priest?
00:53:00
Speaker
And...
00:53:02
Speaker
Am I a girl?
00:53:03
Speaker
Right.
00:53:04
Speaker
Which I mean is fair if you discover you have a uterus.
00:53:07
Speaker
You're like, what is that?
00:53:09
Speaker
But it's just, it's messy.
00:53:10
Speaker
It's interesting.
00:53:12
Speaker
And it's not something that we know what to do with.
00:53:16
Speaker
But God knows what to do with it.
00:53:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:53:19
Speaker
It made me think.
00:53:20
Speaker
I was like, am I okay with this?
00:53:22
Speaker
I'm not really sure what the movie's saying.
00:53:24
Speaker
And I am.
00:53:26
Speaker
What I was trying to say was if they were...
00:53:31
Speaker
like if this if the genders were swapped and it was like a woman who was born with an intersex disorder, I would also arguably be OK with it.
00:53:37
Speaker
There's more question around theology and like women in leadership.
00:53:40
Speaker
But it was I was what I was trying to say earlier was like, I'm not OK with it because he's specifically a man, but because of where it's like landing on the
00:53:48
Speaker
on the theology there where I feel more comfortable with it.
00:53:51
Speaker
Because I had a muddled statement earlier.
00:53:54
Speaker
So it was less about like, what sex is he and more that he's embracing how God created him.
00:54:00
Speaker
I like that.
00:54:03
Speaker
And it did it in a messy way, which I think is appropriate for the time that we're in, because it's a tricky it's a tricky time to be living and navigating as a Christian.
God's Mystery and Papal Choice
00:54:13
Speaker
But I feel like that just puts the cap on the mystery thing of God is like, I'm so mysterious that even the person that I chose to be Pope is also mysterious and weird.
00:54:22
Speaker
And you can't quite pin him down, but he is the person I made for this.
00:54:26
Speaker
Right.
00:54:27
Speaker
Love him and ordained him for this.
00:54:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:29
Speaker
In the, in the, in the world of the movie, obviously, depending on your theology of the Pope.
00:54:33
Speaker
Fake world, real God.
00:54:34
Speaker
I know.
00:54:36
Speaker
So I just thought that thread of mystery throughout was really nice.
00:54:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:43
Speaker
Okay, I'm going to jump to one other discussion, and then we can put the pin in the point from earlier, because I wanted to touch on discernment.
00:54:50
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:54:51
Speaker
With watching something, and I think this more naturally flows into it.
00:54:54
Speaker
So, did you have any thoughts on any of that?
00:54:57
Speaker
Because I just talked a lot.
00:54:59
Speaker
Oh.
00:55:00
Speaker
I feel like I'm just, like, rambling on this episode.
00:55:03
Speaker
I think I said mostly, like... I felt like they were trying to...
00:55:10
Speaker
be quite weird and controversial.
00:55:13
Speaker
And for a second I thought that, but then like, it's not really controversial.
00:55:19
Speaker
So I don't know if the filmmakers know that it's not that controversial.
00:55:24
Speaker
But I think other people maybe think it is controversial.
00:55:27
Speaker
I liked that it made me think.
00:55:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it did to me too.
00:55:32
Speaker
And here's where I'm going to talk about discernment.
00:55:34
Speaker
Okay.
00:55:35
Speaker
Because there's been people online who have just been like, boycott this movie.
00:55:39
Speaker
Don't watch this movie.
00:55:41
Speaker
What?
00:55:42
Speaker
Who said that?
00:55:43
Speaker
Ben Shapiro.
00:55:44
Speaker
Well, he didn't say it.
00:55:44
Speaker
He said watch it and then be angry about it.
00:55:48
Speaker
Why did he not like?
00:55:49
Speaker
That.
00:55:50
Speaker
He is so politically charged.
00:55:52
Speaker
He's a political animal.
00:55:53
Speaker
No, he thinks that they were saying that he was transgender is, I think what he says.
00:55:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's not what they're saying.
00:55:59
Speaker
I know.
00:56:00
Speaker
I don't think so either.
00:56:02
Speaker
But there's a lot of Catholics who have also been like, this is not an accurate representation of the Catholic faith.
00:56:07
Speaker
Don't watch it.
00:56:09
Speaker
Granted, I'm Anglican.
00:56:10
Speaker
I'm not Catholic.
00:56:12
Speaker
So I'm Catholic adjacent.
00:56:13
Speaker
I could feel like you're messing with our thing.
00:56:16
Speaker
This is not how we do it.
00:56:17
Speaker
So I can see that.
00:56:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:20
Speaker
But I think a lot of times that that sort of, that idea of just don't watch this thing.
00:56:29
Speaker
This is bad and shouldn't have been made.
00:56:32
Speaker
Boycott it, don't watch it, but talk about how it's bad.
00:56:36
Speaker
And then that's labeled as discernment.
00:56:38
Speaker
I'm being discerning as somebody who's taking in art.
00:56:44
Speaker
I think it's more compelling and more growing as a Christian person
00:56:50
Speaker
Granted, caveat, this is a matter of conscience.
Engaged Media Consumption
00:56:54
Speaker
So your conscience and the Holy Spirit will lead you to, like, I'm never going to watch Game of Thrones.
00:57:00
Speaker
Maybe a Christian can watch Game of Thrones and be totally fine and then wrestle with some interesting things.
00:57:05
Speaker
I can't.
00:57:06
Speaker
That's just, it's got too much in it that I'm like, I don't want to fill my brain with this.
00:57:11
Speaker
It's going to be bad for me.
00:57:11
Speaker
It's the thrones.
00:57:12
Speaker
Right?
00:57:12
Speaker
I can't deal with thrones.
00:57:14
Speaker
They're pokey.
00:57:14
Speaker
But some other people are fine with thrones.
00:57:16
Speaker
They're fine.
00:57:16
Speaker
They're like, I don't care about pokey thrones.
00:57:18
Speaker
I don't want them.
00:57:19
Speaker
I can deal.
00:57:20
Speaker
I can deal with it and watch and be like, hmm, what if pokey thrones and God?
00:57:25
Speaker
But for me, I'm like, no.
00:57:27
Speaker
Pass.
00:57:28
Speaker
Pass.
00:57:30
Speaker
But I think it's a lot more compelling to be like, and it's kind of like the argument against banned books, right?
00:57:35
Speaker
Like, immediately I'm like,
00:57:39
Speaker
to a degree, banned books, I think there's a lot of banned books that are like, well, that was just badly written, like smug, you know?
00:57:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:46
Speaker
The Apostles buried some books.
00:57:48
Speaker
That's true.
00:57:49
Speaker
Magic books.
00:57:50
Speaker
That's true.
00:57:51
Speaker
But immediately when there's a work of art that somebody's like, boycott this, I'm like, it would be a lot more compelling to watch it and then discern.
00:58:02
Speaker
Don't discern before you've watched it and say, this is automatically bad.
00:58:07
Speaker
maybe conclave is not as beautiful a representation of the christian faith and a relationship with god and the mystery of god and and and the state of the church as i think it is but i think it's a lot more compelling and interesting because we've talked about this movie i've ranted about this movie at least for like 58 minutes pretty good that's a lot of conversation topics yeah i think it's a lot more compelling to watch
00:58:34
Speaker
take in a piece of art that will make you think, even if it's uncomfortable, even if it's trumpeting a worldview that you don't like, to think about it and wrestle with that and come to a place.
00:58:44
Speaker
I love that that ending was just offbeat enough with that cardinal that I was like, oh, am I okay with that theologically?
00:58:53
Speaker
Has all of this journey been worth it for me?
00:58:56
Speaker
Now I have to wrestle with this and do a thought experiment about this situation and try and see what this film is saying about that and what are the themes there.
00:59:05
Speaker
And obviously other people are going to read that scene differently than I do.
00:59:09
Speaker
Ben Shapiro and I read it very differently.
00:59:13
Speaker
But I love that it made me think.
00:59:15
Speaker
And then I am being discerning by taking in the art
00:59:23
Speaker
and then discerning afterwards.
00:59:24
Speaker
And then if I'm like, that's bad for me, I'm not gonna watch it again.
00:59:28
Speaker
And again, there's still some like- You can know ahead of time that it's gonna be not a good thing to consume at all.
00:59:34
Speaker
Like Nosferatu just came out recently.
00:59:36
Speaker
And even though I know the director's great,
00:59:38
Speaker
I'm like, I'm not going to watch that.
00:59:40
Speaker
I know there's junk in there.
00:59:41
Speaker
I want to watch another one of his movies, The Northman, I want to see very badly.
00:59:45
Speaker
But I'm not going to watch Nosferatu because I know what's in it.
00:59:49
Speaker
And I know that's not going to be good.
00:59:50
Speaker
I'm not saying no Christian can watch that and not get something out of it.
00:59:56
Speaker
But me, no, certainly not.
00:59:58
Speaker
Yeah.
01:00:00
Speaker
But if it's just because it's trumpeting a worldview, I don't like.
01:00:04
Speaker
Just a worldview thing.
01:00:06
Speaker
Then I'm like, yeah, I think maybe you should dive in.
01:00:09
Speaker
I think maybe you should dive in.
01:00:10
Speaker
No, I don't think that we're necessarily captive by the art of the world and that, oh, just because somebody makes a thing, ah.
01:00:20
Speaker
Now I have to give two hours of my time to have to watch it.
01:00:24
Speaker
Right.
01:00:24
Speaker
But I think what you're saying is true that there can be a lot of growth through the wrestle.
01:00:30
Speaker
And I know for me, that's often like, oh, that's uncomfortable.
01:00:33
Speaker
I don't want to have to deal with that wrestling.
01:00:35
Speaker
But I think that's probably good.
01:00:38
Speaker
Camera.
01:00:41
Speaker
Ad break.
01:00:42
Speaker
I'm going to switch up.
01:00:43
Speaker
All right.
01:00:46
Speaker
Yeah.
01:00:46
Speaker
Entertain the audience, Nate.
01:00:50
Speaker
Oh, oh, are you still... Yes, this will be just for audio.
01:00:54
Speaker
They just get this fun a little bit, I guess.
01:00:57
Speaker
Oh.
01:00:59
Speaker
Hi, guys.
01:01:01
Speaker
What you doing?
01:01:03
Speaker
Driving down the road?
01:01:05
Speaker
A little snowy out there?
01:01:07
Speaker
You be careful now.
01:01:12
Speaker
We're coming back.
01:01:13
Speaker
We're back.
01:01:14
Speaker
We're back.
01:01:15
Speaker
You were saying about discernment.
01:01:18
Speaker
Oh, just that I don't think we're forced to watch everything that is put out, but that, to your point, it can be...
01:01:29
Speaker
it can be a growing thing to wrestle with it rather than just throw out something.
01:01:35
Speaker
And because even if there's people you trust, like, I like Ben Shapiro, but I don't agree with everything he says.
01:01:42
Speaker
And like, in this case, I like this movie where he hated it.
01:01:45
Speaker
And so, yeah.
01:01:47
Speaker
I think it's valuable.
01:01:49
Speaker
Do we want to talk about that unfinished point from earlier?
01:01:53
Speaker
What was it?
01:01:56
Speaker
Oh, that's right, because it was about mystery.
01:02:01
Speaker
What I wrote was God's mystery.
01:02:03
Speaker
Huh?
01:02:03
Speaker
Maybe we did talk about it.
01:02:05
Speaker
God's mystery enables us to love and carry out his will.
01:02:10
Speaker
Yes, because Lawrence, this is what I was thinking, Lawrence doesn't really quite know what God's will is.
01:02:19
Speaker
No.
01:02:19
Speaker
We were talking last episode about how messy it can be.
01:02:22
Speaker
Yeah.
01:02:24
Speaker
Trying to live that out.
01:02:25
Speaker
It's about the heart of it, right?
01:02:27
Speaker
Lawrence, I think, is a great example of that.
01:02:29
Speaker
He doesn't know who should be Pope.
01:02:32
Speaker
No.
01:02:32
Speaker
Until the end.
01:02:34
Speaker
Right.
01:02:35
Speaker
And...
01:02:37
Speaker
He's being messy, and he's like, oh, I really don't want to pry into these people's lives.
01:02:42
Speaker
Oh, but I guess I really have to.
01:02:43
Speaker
And that's messy.
01:02:44
Speaker
He does do a lot of prying.
01:02:45
Speaker
He breaks a seal on the Pope's room, which he's not supposed to do.
01:02:51
Speaker
That poor seal died.
01:02:53
Speaker
He murdered a seal in cold blood.
01:02:56
Speaker
No more bouncing balls.
01:02:57
Speaker
No more.
01:02:59
Speaker
But, like, he does, like, all these things, and...
01:03:03
Speaker
is like snooping around and like ruining people's lives.
01:03:07
Speaker
Like at least one guy's life.
01:03:10
Speaker
But in all of that, I think within the fiction of the film, I think he ran that conclave exactly how God wanted it to be run.
01:03:22
Speaker
I think arguably the only mistake he made was when he was like, I should be Pope.
01:03:27
Speaker
Um,
01:03:29
Speaker
Maybe.
01:03:30
Speaker
And I'm not even convinced then.
01:03:35
Speaker
I just think that that's sort of the darkest point where it's the hardest for him to kind of see what God's will is.
01:03:41
Speaker
And then God breaks through in a really powerful way of like, nah, buddy.
01:03:50
Speaker
But I think that that's interesting.
01:03:51
Speaker
And I love it, especially because he says he's struggling with his prayer.
01:03:59
Speaker
He says he's having doubt in prayer, which is, of course, our primary sort of relational interaction with God.
01:04:09
Speaker
And you think if you're discerning his will, it's primarily through prayer.
01:04:12
Speaker
It should be right.
01:04:15
Speaker
And like scripture and things, but like prayer should be surrounding all of that.
01:04:19
Speaker
No, I've definitely been in like time or times in my life where it's like, I really want to know the answer of the thing to do.
01:04:29
Speaker
But then God like taught me probably still learning but that like that faith, it's not faith if you know everything of what it's going to be, how things are going to turn out in the end.
Distance from God and Faith
01:04:46
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:47
Speaker
It does.
01:04:48
Speaker
And that's the part that I feel like I've been relating to a lot with that character.
01:04:53
Speaker
I think I was talking to Shay earlier today, and I think I maybe go through this every winter and haven't realized it.
01:04:59
Speaker
But, like, right now I feel...
01:05:02
Speaker
fairly distant from God in my prayer life, which is sucky, because I'm praying almost every day, because I'm Anglican, so we have morning and evening prayer.
01:05:11
Speaker
So I have my scheduled times of prayer, and I'm trying to talk to him throughout the day and trying to find moments of silence.
01:05:16
Speaker
But it kind of just feels like I'm throwing it out there.
01:05:19
Speaker
I'm like, well,
01:05:21
Speaker
I guess I know you're listening.
01:05:24
Speaker
And it's not like I'm never getting anything back.
01:05:26
Speaker
But then there's also a lot of life changes happening, some of which I can talk about and some of which I can't.
01:05:34
Speaker
And you go beyond words.
01:05:37
Speaker
Yeah.
01:05:37
Speaker
And there's a lot of like heavy situations that I'm navigating.
01:05:41
Speaker
Yeah, man.
01:05:41
Speaker
And I'm like, man, I just Lord, I'd love to.
01:05:46
Speaker
feel a little bit more sure that you were like hearing my prayers and were with me.
01:05:49
Speaker
And like, I know you are, but like, I don't get that deep sense of your presence.
01:05:54
Speaker
Like it feels murky.
01:05:56
Speaker
It feels oppressive.
01:05:57
Speaker
It feels like that sort of situation Lawrence is going in.
01:06:00
Speaker
But then it's, it's, it, watching it again today, I think.
01:06:05
Speaker
The shadow of death.
01:06:06
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:07
Speaker
And just remembering, okay, okay.
01:06:10
Speaker
God is with me.
01:06:11
Speaker
God has a plan.
01:06:12
Speaker
God is leading me through this.
01:06:13
Speaker
Even if,
01:06:16
Speaker
It feels like my relationship with God is like survival mode is the word that's coming to mind, which is not to say it's in an unhealthy place, but it's just like for some reason that feels like it's like a long distance relationship right now.
01:06:31
Speaker
And we're still touching base a lot, you know, but it's not like we're hanging out at the pub every night.
01:06:37
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:38
Speaker
So what's God's purpose in that phase of a relationship?
01:06:42
Speaker
I don't know.
01:06:44
Speaker
I don't know.
01:06:44
Speaker
But it's been encouraging to me to remember that he's still there and working.
01:06:48
Speaker
I think this movie was a reminder of that, that even though there's really hard situations that I'm navigating and I'm praying about them, but a lot of times it feels like
01:06:58
Speaker
Like, I just have to trust that God's spirit is with me and I just have to try and do my best in the moment, which sometimes is good and sometimes it's not good.
01:07:04
Speaker
I had a time this weekend that was maybe not my best moment in navigating a situation.
01:07:10
Speaker
And I've had some other times where it has been a better, you know, navigation of a thing.
01:07:17
Speaker
But it's kind of stretching a different aspect of your relationship.
01:07:21
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:22
Speaker
Faith that no matter what your feelings are and what comes, that he's there and he's leading you.
01:07:30
Speaker
And the faith that no matter if I know what to do or not, that he's there.
01:07:37
Speaker
Because to an extent...
01:07:41
Speaker
probably partially because of so many life changes, but also there's just a lot of crazy situations.
Connecting Through Nature
01:07:45
Speaker
And I connect to God a lot through nature.
01:07:47
Speaker
So when it's wintertime, I'm not out of nature as much because it's cold.
01:07:53
Speaker
But it's like, wow, there's all these things that normally I would go off and spend half an hour in the woods to like pray about and hear from God and be like, sure, that that's what God's got me doing.
01:08:02
Speaker
Whereas now it feels like, okay, I'm praying, I'm touching base.
01:08:06
Speaker
I think I'm making space to try and hear him and trying to submit it to him.
01:08:11
Speaker
But it feels like I just kind of have to do my best to try and honor him as I go.
01:08:16
Speaker
But I have to trust that even in that, as long as I'm being faithful, probably even if I'm not always being perfectly faithful, that he's still working and he is still faithful.
01:08:29
Speaker
For sure.
Patience and Trust in God
01:08:30
Speaker
And there's times where...
01:08:36
Speaker
We had a sermon at church the other day about patience over pride out of Ecclesiastes.
01:08:44
Speaker
And the idea was, one of the ideas is that if something is God's will, part of his plan, it's always going to include patience.
01:08:57
Speaker
And just how there's so much more blessing that God gives us when we go the route of patience versus the pride of making things happen ourself.
01:09:10
Speaker
And he used like David as an example of like so often...
01:09:15
Speaker
throughout his story he's just looking to God looking to God and then the one time that his says that David thought in his own head was when he was going to go live with the Philistines and like fight for them and stuff like that which could have had really and it did have bad consequences to it um
01:09:34
Speaker
that that was him rescuing himself from the situation versus the time where he's escaping from Absalom and dude B, this guy is hurling insults and curses on him and David's men are like, should we just go kill that guy?
01:09:51
Speaker
And God's like, no, if God wants him to curse me, let him and he'll take care of it kind of thing.
01:09:59
Speaker
And that's just an example of like trusting God with that patience.
01:10:04
Speaker
So just being okay sometimes with like not knowing what the answer is right away.
01:10:11
Speaker
Yeah.
01:10:13
Speaker
And knowing that you're not going to damn yourself if you don't know the right answer, you know?
01:10:17
Speaker
Yeah.
01:10:18
Speaker
Yeah.
01:10:19
Speaker
Yeah, and my pastor said like, of course, there's things like sometimes we have to do things.
01:10:26
Speaker
But like the overriding principle is who's driving the car?
01:10:31
Speaker
Is it us or is it God?
01:10:34
Speaker
Is it him directing us to do something?
01:10:38
Speaker
Or is it him doing something?
01:10:39
Speaker
Or is it us making something happen?
01:10:42
Speaker
Right.
01:10:42
Speaker
That's where things get dangerous.
01:10:45
Speaker
And I think
Day-by-Day Faith
01:10:47
Speaker
we can trust that he is driving the car, even if it doesn't always feel like he's driving the car.
01:10:53
Speaker
Like if we're overwhelmed or we're just kind of like, I feel like it's just like day by day right now, you know, and like, well, I'm just taking each moment as it comes.
01:11:04
Speaker
I don't have a lot of time for forward thinking and deep discernment on topics.
01:11:09
Speaker
And I'm trying to take time when I can and stuff, but I can still trust that.
01:11:13
Speaker
I'm telling Jesus to take the wheel, to take it from my hands.
01:11:18
Speaker
Which is a song that has surprisingly deep, rich truth to it.
01:11:22
Speaker
No, because I think day by day living is a beautiful way to live.
01:11:28
Speaker
Because that's the only place you can live in a way, because you can't live in the future, because you're not there, and God's with you right here.
01:11:40
Speaker
And God is big enough
01:11:43
Speaker
If you're really seeking his will, he's big enough to redirect you if you're not making the right choice.
01:11:49
Speaker
Yep.
01:11:49
Speaker
Yep.
01:11:49
Speaker
You
Theatrical Faith Metaphor
01:11:50
Speaker
just keep that open heart.
01:11:51
Speaker
Or to convict you if you do.
01:11:52
Speaker
Yeah.
01:11:53
Speaker
Like, it's kind of like doing a play.
01:11:55
Speaker
Sometimes I'll do a performance and I'll be like, well, that time it wasn't quite as good.
01:12:00
Speaker
I'll make a note of that and I'll do it better next time.
01:12:02
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:03
Speaker
Pray God make use of it despite my weakness.
01:12:06
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:06
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:07
Speaker
which sometimes those are our best nights in place.
01:12:09
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:10
Speaker
People are like, wow, I was moved.
01:12:11
Speaker
And I was like, why?
01:12:12
Speaker
I sucked.
01:12:12
Speaker
Right, right.
01:12:13
Speaker
It's like, why couldn't you have been moved when I did good?
01:12:15
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:17
Speaker
Moved by my awesomeness.
01:12:18
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:19
Speaker
That should have been really impactful to you.
01:12:21
Speaker
Yeah.
Podcast Closure and Banter
01:12:23
Speaker
But God gets his glory.
01:12:24
Speaker
Amen.
01:12:26
Speaker
Well, this was lovely.
01:12:27
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:27
Speaker
Really long episodes of the last two episodes.
01:12:30
Speaker
There's two of us now.
01:12:31
Speaker
We like movies and there's two of us.
01:12:32
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:34
Speaker
Ah, cool.
01:12:35
Speaker
Well, thank you for being here for the thing you've committed to.
01:12:38
Speaker
This is my home.
01:12:39
Speaker
I live in this corner now.
01:12:40
Speaker
You do?
01:12:41
Speaker
Ha!
01:12:41
Speaker
Now the turntables, now I've kidnapped you.
01:12:43
Speaker
It's okay.
01:12:45
Speaker
Nice corner.
01:12:47
Speaker
Great corner.
01:12:48
Speaker
And I can pay my mortgage so my house can stay put together.
01:12:51
Speaker
I'm paying to be in this corner.
01:12:52
Speaker
You are?
01:12:53
Speaker
It's great.
01:12:54
Speaker
I can quit my job now.
01:13:00
Speaker
Cool.
01:13:00
Speaker
Well, have a good week, guys.
01:13:02
Speaker
God bless.
01:13:03
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in.
01:13:04
Speaker
Tuning in?
01:13:05
Speaker
We're not radio, we're a podcast.
01:13:07
Speaker
Tune that dial.
01:13:08
Speaker
Tune that dial to Apple CarPlay.
01:13:10
Speaker
Yeah.