Conclave, Doubt, and Discernment in Art

Transcript

Speaker: Hello friends, welcome back to Artist of the Way.

Speaker: Should I catch you off guard?

Speaker: Okay, I just saw you in the corner of my house.

Speaker: What is Nate now prepared?

Speaker: There's a camera?

Speaker: There's a camera.

Speaker: Nate, I'm recording you.

Speaker: This is an interrogation.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: There's the lamp above us.

Speaker: It's very niquity.

Speaker: What did you think of the movie Conclave?

Speaker: There was a lot of heavy breathing in that movie.

Speaker: I think that's a good connection.

Speaker: We're starting right off the bat.

Speaker: Okay, spoilers for the, okay, hang on.

Speaker: This is Artist of the Way.

Speaker: I'm John, the host.

Speaker: This is my friend, Nate.

Speaker: I'm Nate.

Speaker: He's the co-host now.

Speaker: Hi.

Speaker: Hopefully you're used to that now because you've had one episode.

Speaker: Yeah, come on.

Speaker: It was just like a hi to like a child.

Speaker: Hi, buddy.

Speaker: How are you doing?

Speaker: I do have a one-year-old in the house.

Speaker: It's true.

Speaker: It's just seeping in your bones.

Speaker: Listen, we're done talking about parenting.

Speaker: We did that the last episode.

Speaker: Go back to the other episode.

Speaker: Yeah, come on, man.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: This is the second part of our episode.

Speaker: This is the adult episode.

Speaker: If you were a child, my brain really wanted to curse there really badly.

Speaker: I stopped myself.

Speaker: Nice.

Speaker: Thanks.

Speaker: I would get fired.

Speaker: Yeah, maybe.

Speaker: I could.

Speaker: I could get fired now.

Speaker: That's something.

Speaker: I feel like... Where would you go?

Speaker: Where would I go?

Speaker: I have no idea.

Speaker: What would be the new organization that you'd make?

Speaker: The new organization I'd make?

Speaker: Artists of the Christian path.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Artists who follow Jesus.

Speaker: It doesn't sound as catchy, but it has the same vibe.

Speaker: You just have to work that much harder.

Speaker: I do.

Speaker: To make it good.

Speaker: I do.

Speaker: Because the name already sucks.

Speaker: Overcome.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: Surmounted.

Speaker: Listen, we're not Pope John Paul II.

Speaker: We can't all write amazing plays.

Speaker: We don't know if he can either.

Speaker: We don't know, because maybe there hasn't been as much time as it would think that there would be in between these two episodes, so maybe I haven't had time to research that yet.

Speaker: He's joking.

Speaker: He spent the last hour pouring over.

Speaker: I did.

Speaker: And I'm going to do a dramatic reading for you of good old John Paul numero two.

Speaker: Electric boogaloo.

Speaker: No, I'm not going to do that.

Speaker: But we are going to talk about the Catholic faith.

Speaker: Is that like your movie trailer voice?

Speaker: I guess.

Speaker: Nice.

Speaker: So this is the second part of two episodes that we have discovered is Nate and I talking about our favorite movies of 2024.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Mine's a little bit more controversial, but I'm ready to dive in.

Speaker: I love controversial things.

Speaker: So this is right up my alley.

Speaker: Spoilers for the movie Conclave, which I highly recommend.

Speaker: It's intense, though.

Speaker: I liked it, too.

Speaker: Nate liked it, too.

Speaker: And we have slightly differing views.

Speaker: On what?

Speaker: On what?

Speaker: Lots of things.

Speaker: Lots of things.

Speaker: Not really the Christian faith.

Speaker: We like it.

Speaker: But other things.

Speaker: We do like it.

Speaker: That's our shared opinion on the Christian faith.

Speaker: We feel different about some other faiths.

Speaker: Maybe.

Speaker: Do we?

Speaker: Maybe you hate one slightly more than I do.

Speaker: While we both hate them a lot.

Speaker: Damn, we're the other faiths.

Speaker: Now we're sounding like a particular character in the movie Conclave.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: He may have had a beard.

Speaker: He might have had a beard.

Speaker: Maybe I share an ancestry with him.

Speaker: Ooh, Mr. Italian.

Speaker: Italian.

Speaker: Anyway, spoilers for the movie.

Speaker: Joe Italian, you're both related to him.

Speaker: I wanted Joe Italian to be pho.

Speaker: But yes, I highly recommend it, but it is intense.

Speaker: It's a political thriller about the Catholic Church, which is...

Speaker: Oh yeah, man.

Speaker: I thought it would.

Speaker: What a great topic for a movie.

Speaker: I know, just as a premise.

Speaker: What a great premise.

Speaker: That's the word.

Speaker: I mean, so if you don't know what happens in the real world.

Speaker: A conclave, which I'm only learning in the last couple years.

Speaker: I don't want people to think I'm going to know at all.

Speaker: I learned in the last couple years.

Speaker: Weeks.

Speaker: Days.

Speaker: I know so much more than you.

Speaker: It's amazing.

Speaker: No, it's when the Catholic Church, when a pope dies.

Speaker: As they do.

Speaker: The pope is the head of the Catholic Church.

Speaker: I'm just going to over explain this in case people are really not familiar with the Catholic Church.

Speaker: So the pope is sort of like, in the view of the Catholic Church, the ordained priest.

Speaker: priest over the entire Catholic Church who leads it.

Speaker: They would say that that traces back to Peter.

Speaker: He's the guy.

Speaker: He's the guy.

Speaker: He is the Pope.

Speaker: Pope the first.

Speaker: Do you know who the second Pope was?

Speaker: I don't know who the second Pope was.

Speaker: Do you know who the second Pope was?

Speaker: Linus.

Speaker: Linus?

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Oh, lovely, like in Peanuts.

Speaker: Yes, that's what they think.

Speaker: That's cool.

Speaker: He's like listed in like one of Paul's letters.

Speaker: It's like, say hi, hey to Linus or something like that.

Speaker: And he was like the Bishop of Rome, I think.

Speaker: Oh, that makes sense.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: According to the Catholics, that would have been the Pope.

Speaker: Because that's kind of the seat of the Western Church.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So, yes.

Speaker: So a Pope dies and you have to get a new Pope.

Speaker: Gotcha.

Speaker: Which means you need to figure out, ideally, what God's will is for who to have as the new Pope.

Speaker: So the way that the Catholic Church now does this is they will sequester their cardinals, which is...

Speaker: I think sort of like a bishop, but like higher up.

Speaker: And I think connected like directly to the Vatican, which is sort of the... Yeah, what is the difference between a bishop and a cardinal?

Speaker: Cardinal's higher.

Speaker: Now I have two Catholic things to research, which is, was Pope John Paul II's plays any good?

Speaker: Were they even Catholic?

Speaker: Were they even Catholic?

Speaker: Ooh.

Speaker: Probably.

Speaker: And how exactly does the Cardinals fit into the ecclesiology?

Speaker: They're basically a step above bishops, right?

Speaker: They wear red.

Speaker: They do wear red.

Speaker: That's what we know.

Speaker: We do, because they used red a lot in the visuals of this movie.

Speaker: But they'll literally lock themselves in the Vatican, and then they will vote.

Speaker: Which is not as nice of a place as you might think.

Speaker: Not in this movie, at least.

Speaker: No.

Speaker: It was a bit drab.

Speaker: A bit oppressive.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And then they will choose a new pope through voting and prayer and a lot of things.

Speaker: No lot casting.

Speaker: No.

Speaker: What was with that?

Speaker: Unbiblical.

Speaker: They should have cast some lots.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I wanted them to gamble about the pope.

Speaker: Let's, I'm all in on being the Pope.

Speaker: I think sometimes it's biblically justifiable.

Speaker: It's like they make sure they choose good candidates, and then out of the good candidates, cast some lots.

Speaker: I think it's biblically defensible.

Speaker: Why not?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I don't know if I'm brave enough to do it, but I think it's biblically defensible.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Although, isn't Eenie, Meenie, Miney, Moe just casting lots?

Speaker: Yeah, it's just as much chance in that.

Speaker: That's true.

Speaker: Although you do eventually know who you're going to land on.

Speaker: Yeah, I know.

Speaker: That's what I was kind of saying.

Speaker: But yeah, so that's what happens when a new pope is elected.

Speaker: And so this movie.

Speaker: And sometimes different people want to be pope.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: So.

Speaker: And they'll pretend like they don't.

Speaker: In a perfect world.

Speaker: In this movie.

Speaker: In a perfect world.

Speaker: This is all just led by the Holy Spirit and is decided upon through the will of God.

Speaker: Which, I mean, if you're extrapolating it up enough, it is.

Speaker: God is in control of everything.

Speaker: He's sovereign.

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

Speaker: But there's also a lot of politics to the Catholic Church in particular because it is still the largest church body.

Speaker: And it is so... There's a lot of people.

Speaker: It is groups.

Speaker: It is groups.

Speaker: Politics right there.

Speaker: And it's probably, I think it's probably the church body that engages with governments the most, I feel like, from what I know directly.

Speaker: Maybe.

Speaker: But...

Speaker: So it's very political.

Speaker: And I mean... It's a fictional movie.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: So this movie... You're like, John, get on topic.

Speaker: I just want to say things.

Speaker: Yeah, so this movie...

Speaker: It's fictional.

Speaker: So this movie is like, what if that happened again?

Speaker: What if Pope Jeff died?

Speaker: What if Pope Jeff died?

Speaker: In this film, the fictional Pope, they never named the Pope, do they?

Speaker: It's Jeff.

Speaker: Did he have like a previous Pope name that they refer to?

Speaker: I don't think they even do.

Speaker: He's just the Pope.

Speaker: He's just the Holy Father.

Speaker: The Holy Father is what they call him.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Which is just a nice title.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: Not a bad title.

Speaker: It's not a bad title.

Speaker: I like it.

Speaker: Holy Father is just cozy.

Speaker: It sounds cozy, you know?

Speaker: It's pretty audacious.

Speaker: It is audacious.

Speaker: Both of those words.

Speaker: That is true.

Speaker: Which word do you think is more audacious?

Speaker: Holy.

Speaker: What about Jesus saying, no one shall call you father?

Speaker: Oh, that's fair.

Speaker: Oh, yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: No, I take it back.

Speaker: We're all holy because Jesus has made us holy.

Speaker: This is a surprise audacious answer.

Speaker: But Father has become sort of just this historic church term to refer to a priest.

Speaker: So they probably are not trying to equate it to like Father is in God the Father, but more just like he's like the priest of priests.

Speaker: And then Jesus is the priest of

Speaker: of priests and the priest of priests.

Speaker: Is that not what Jesus meant when you said don't say that though?

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: I haven't done a lot of... He w as a bit controversial at that stage.

Speaker: He was.

Speaker: And I don't know the like linguistic history of why we refer to priest's father yet.

Speaker: I should look into that.

Speaker: I would like to look into that sometime.

Speaker: I think that'd be an interesting academic study.

Speaker: Um, yeah.

Speaker: Let me know.

Speaker: So I'm not sure.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I'll look into it and then I'll tell you what to believe.

Speaker: He's going to be busy the next week.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: So the film Conclave stars Ralph Fiennes, who's great as he has a nose in this movie.

Speaker: He does.

Speaker: Pretty good.

Speaker: I like in Harry Potter.

Speaker: He has a good nose.

Speaker: He plays Cardinal Lawrence.

Speaker: What a good guy.

Speaker: Lovely guy.

Speaker: I like that guy.

Speaker: I liked him too.

Speaker: I liked a lot of the guys.

Speaker: You liked a lot of the guys.

Speaker: I liked.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: There's several guys that like there are several guys.

Speaker: I like especially this guy.

Speaker: I did.

Speaker: This guy was probably my favorite guy.

Speaker: So he is a dean.

Speaker: And that means I don't know what he's a dean of, but he is referred to as the dean.

Speaker: And so he is in charge of running the conclave to select the pope.

Speaker: And very early on in the film, he's referring back to a conversation he had with the pope because he was.

Speaker: his character is sort of struggling with doubt.

Speaker: I think this film has very interesting things to say about doubt and faith.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And so he's wrestling with doubt, and so he's like,

Speaker: Mr. Pope, sir, I think I'd like to just kind of back off from my duties and just go join a holy order and just kind of monk it up.

Speaker: Is that my monastery?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So like Benedictine monks is a holy order.

Speaker: So he's like, I kind of just want to do that.

Speaker: It's nice that he was having doubts, but he wasn't just going to totally go away.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: I'm not feeling good.

Speaker: So I don't know if I should be doing my stuff, but I still want to figure this out.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And then the Pope was like, nah, fam.

Speaker: But he gave him this like missional sentence that Cardinal Lawrence is clearly not happy about.

Speaker: But the Pope told him some people are shepherds and some people are called to manage.

Speaker: Manage the farm.

Speaker: Yeah, to manage the farm.

Speaker: And you're a manager.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And that's like what's implied.

Speaker: He felt a little bad about that.

Speaker: He did.

Speaker: He didn't like that.

Speaker: I'm a stupid manager.

Speaker: It sounds like I work at a McDonald's.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But it's the Catholic Church.

Speaker: It's a pretty good title actually, manager.

Speaker: Yeah, of the Catholic Church.

Speaker: Yeah, McDonald's even.

Speaker: That's true.

Speaker: So it follows him as he seeks to navigate all the political machinations that are happening within the Catholic church as they try and select a new Pope.

Speaker: And I think it's one of the most raw and honest depictions of the church and the conflicts and struggles within the church of our day that I have seen on a popular level.

Speaker: Could be.

Speaker: I would know.

Speaker: What's it like there?

Speaker: I've never been conclaved before.

Speaker: Well, that's true.

Speaker: I mean, I don't know about in a conclave, but just like general theologically.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Specifically because of in the bubble that we live in in America, I'm going to get in a rant about how the world views the church for a second.

Speaker: Wasn't me.

Speaker: Could be me.

Speaker: Wasn't you?

Speaker: What do you mean?

Speaker: Wasn't you like you didn't view the church that way?

Speaker: Whatever you're good at ranting.

Speaker: Oh, no, I don't think it's you.

Speaker: I don't think so.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: In America, we have conservatives and liberals.

Speaker: And it's like, this is the great battleground.

Speaker: And it's between white conservatives and multi-ethnic liberals is the narrative.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And...

Speaker: The conservatives are racist and oppressive and horrible and the liberals are progressive and want to move things forward and are completely altruistic.

Speaker: Okay, this is one narrative.

Speaker: Hang on.

Speaker: This is not being fair to both sides.

Speaker: This is a narrative.

Speaker: There's also the narrative.

Speaker: It is a popular narrative.

Speaker: There is also another narrative in which there's like, we are the conservative church.

Speaker: We're the only ones who care about biblical truth and and

Speaker: the heart of Christ.

Speaker: You're doing the positive side now.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Wait.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Now there's like the pro-conservative side and the anti-liberal side.

Speaker: But it's all like down to these two things.

Speaker: It's like, oh, and there's all these categories that you fit into.

Speaker: But the reality in the church is that the church does not fit into those categories like at all.

Speaker: Like maybe in America it does.

Speaker: And yes, that's a that's a tense dialogue in America.

Speaker: But it's

Speaker: The issues that the global church is actually facing that actually matter to the church as a whole is not this infighting in America.

Speaker: Not about taxes.

Speaker: It's not.

Speaker: Most of the church is looking at America and is like, what the heck?

Speaker: Get your crap together.

Speaker: We're being persecuted over here.

Speaker: What is happening over there?

Speaker: I guess we have to send missionaries over to you guys because you don't know what you're doing or how to navigate these things or how to solve these things biblically or how to find unity.

Speaker: So I guess we're going to send people over and try and not die over here.

Speaker: And it's just like, it is embarrassing and it's horrible.

Speaker: And we treat it like our American church is so important.

Speaker: And like it is, but in the landscape of the world, we are not the leaders in the church anymore at all.

Speaker: Sorry, I got really passionate.

Speaker: He believes this.

Speaker: I don't think I ran so much before on the podcast.

Speaker: But I think the film does a really good job of picking out these different.

Speaker: And I mean, it can't delve into all these issues that the church is wrestling with.

Speaker: But it does a really good job of painting these pictures of what's actually going on in the church and beliefs that are happening in the church.

Speaker: And I just my favorite microcosm of this, I think is the most obvious one that most people don't think about is

Speaker: The African church is incredibly theologically conservative, and most of the world does not know that.

Speaker: But the African church, which is growing tremendously and is, I think, probably within our lifetime, if it hasn't already, will overtake as...

Speaker: like the African and Middle Eastern area, I think will become the center for the church.

Speaker: Wow.

Speaker: Which I mean, it was before at one point.

Speaker: Coming back.

Speaker: Yes, coming back.

Speaker: It's like, I'm taking it back, guys.

Speaker: Woo!

Speaker: For Augustine!

Speaker: Yay, Africa!

Speaker: But they're incredibly theologically conservative.

Speaker: So you have all these different factions in conclave.

Speaker: So you have theological liberals who have been trying to push for more like tolerance and women in leadership.

Speaker: And they don't really specify what, but something about policies around like gay and lesbian people.

Speaker: They don't really specify what.

Speaker: It probably would be easy to assume that it's either blessing, same-sex unions, or...

Speaker: potentially just being fine with that at all, theologically.

Speaker: And there's a moment where they're like, dang, it looks like the African contender for the Pope might win.

Speaker: That sucks, because he's super theologically conservative.

Speaker: If he was white, we could talk about how bigoted he was.

Speaker: But we can't, because he's black.

Speaker: I'm just like, what a raw thing that I was shocked to see on a popular level.

Speaker: It's so just...

Speaker: It's just I think that showed the real depth of understanding of what's happening in the church that this movie had, even if people are not behind the movie are not Christian.

Speaker: I think it was made with a lot of love for the Christian faith.

Speaker: And I think it portrayed God amidst that film quite well and very subtly.

Speaker: Yeah, straight.

Speaker: It was kind of it wasn't offensive.

Speaker: Mm hmm.

Speaker: To me, I didn't find it offensive.

Speaker: It was to other people.

Speaker: It was.

Speaker: Not us.

Speaker: So the interesting struggle for this character, it's this and Rings of Power.

Speaker: That's where we can have the unpopular artistic opinions and stick together.

Speaker: Liking things.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: So Cardinal Lawrence is trying to navigate this and frequently is coming into contact, contact conflict with these different parties within the church.

Speaker: He's liberal.

Speaker: He is liberal.

Speaker: But he's a very fair guy.

Speaker: He is.

Speaker: And he's he's honest.

Speaker: He is.

Speaker: And my my favorite line of his, he's he's speaking with there's there's sort of these like I think it's five front runners

Speaker: for the the papacy with the pope for being elected pope-pacy the pope-pacy that like um are sort of rising to the top um there's john lithgow who is uh cardinal trembling illegal for the whole world to dance now he is he's on the warpath but he's you never really know what he believes he's just sort of there to like game the system

Speaker: He's a liberal too.

Speaker: He is, but he seems a little, he's not as... Dogmatic?

Speaker: Yeah, like he doesn't, he's not doing as much of the rhetoric as everybody else.

Speaker: Like you can see he's trying to... He's one of the guys.

Speaker: He just wants the papacy, like for himself, I think, more than the agenda.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And then you have...

Speaker: Aldo Bellini, who's played by Stanley Tucci, who's always amazing.

Speaker: I love Stanley Tucci.

Speaker: I didn't realize that he was the Hunger Games guy.

Speaker: He is.

Speaker: And he's in Captain America The First Avenger.

Speaker: I knew those guys were the same.

Speaker: He's great.

Speaker: I love Stanley Tucci.

Speaker: He's in a great episode of Monk, too.

Speaker: He is?

Speaker: Nice.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: He's in Transformers Age of Extinction, which is a horrible Transformers movie.

Speaker: How is he?

Speaker: About as good as everything else in that movie.

Speaker: Bad.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Stanley.

Speaker: He does.

Speaker: He holds...

Speaker: I don't need to get into it.

Speaker: He does some stupid product placement.

Speaker: It's hilarious.

Speaker: He was good.

Speaker: He was good.

Speaker: I liked him at first.

Speaker: Didn't like him later.

Speaker: But then I came around to him in the end.

Speaker: I think he's reflected on some of the errors of his ways.

Speaker: Yeah, that was nice.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But he's the liberal front runner.

Speaker: He's American.

Speaker: John Lithgow's character is also American.

Speaker: That is.

Speaker: Americans don't have accents.

Speaker: That's how it be.

Speaker: That's how it is.

Speaker: That's our blessing and curse.

Speaker: When people hear us, they're like, wow, I didn't know that people could sound like nothing.

Speaker: And then we just don't sound cool.

Speaker: Yeah, because we sound like nothing.

Speaker: There was something on Instagram.

Speaker: I wish I could find this person again, but it's like a dialect coach or something who's like, I love American accents and nobody gives American accents the credit that they deserve.

Speaker: But here's the things that I love about the American accent.

Speaker: And I can't find their account again, but they were just like,

Speaker: They were like picking different American accents and being like, these are the little things.

Speaker: Was this person British or something?

Speaker: I think they were, or maybe Irish.

Speaker: It was sweet.

Speaker: Cute Irish person loving us.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I like that.

Speaker: It was nice.

Speaker: So you have those two.

Speaker: You have...

Speaker: adiami man you remember this well i just watched it today it's a refresh it's been like a whole day since i watched it so it's harder eight seven hours six six seven eight hours somewhere like that adiami who is the uh african uh front runner um who's also very conservative but he's not really with a conservative party um and then you have

Speaker: Oh, I'm going to forget his name.

Speaker: This is the one I'm not going to remember.

Speaker: But you have an Italian man.

Speaker: Big beard.

Speaker: Big beard Italian man.

Speaker: Got a big red coat.

Speaker: Got as the people knows, he's a racist.

Speaker: That's true.

Speaker: He's like...

Speaker: ultra conservative to the point of like... It's a little cartoonish.

Speaker: It's a little cartoonish.

Speaker: I want to know if there's people... I'm sure some of the viewpoints he's representing are out there.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But I want to know if there's people out there that encapsulate all of those viewpoints in one.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It could be unfair.

Speaker: It could be, yes.

Speaker: But he's like... But he's like... Straw man?

Speaker: It could be.

Speaker: Big fat straw man?

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: I think it could be a straw man, but I also think because Adeyami is theologically conservative and is also such an empathetic character, I think it maybe gets away with it.

Speaker: Because we had a better conservative.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So then you kind of have two where you have like a really bad version of like the liberal side with John Lithgow and a really bad conservative with Mr. Italian Man.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And then two better versions of those who are actually more spiritually grounded when push comes to shove when they get down to it by the end of the film.

Speaker: Right, right.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But Mr. Italian Man is like, it would be better if the mass...

Speaker: No, Bellini was the... That's an actual guy.

Speaker: We already said him.

Speaker: Oh, we did.

Speaker: He's Stanley Tucci.

Speaker: All these names are confusing.

Speaker: People are going to be like, John, stop telling me.

Speaker: Fettuccine.

Speaker: We'll call him Fettuccine.

Speaker: So Fettuccine is like, I think the mash should be spoken in Latin again because that was better.

Speaker: I think the Pope should be Italian because why not?

Speaker: Italians are amazing.

Speaker: Why not Italians?

Speaker: Which I mean, they are.

Speaker: And then he's like, also, I think it'd be great if there was a holy war again.

Speaker: Let's do some wars.

Speaker: Let's do some warring.

Speaker: Let's persecute because we're being persecuted.

Speaker: Yeah, man.

Speaker: So the correct Christian response is to persecute back.

Speaker: Which he doesn't reveal until like right before the climax, which is an intense scene.

Speaker: They didn't like it when he said that.

Speaker: No, they didn't.

Speaker: And then Cardinal Lawrence is voted for a couple of times.

Speaker: But so these are the main sort of players.

Speaker: And he's like, there's all these political people vying for power.

Speaker: And for their agenda.

Speaker: And there's controversy.

Speaker: And there's controversy.

Speaker: There's secrets.

Speaker: There's secrets.

Speaker: He's like finding out about these people.

Speaker: He's a little detective boy.

Speaker: And he's just like, I'm trying to just, A, out of love and respect for the Pope who I knew well and who I think entrusted me with this and B, out of service to God.

Speaker: I am trying my best to run this in such a way that the person that God wants to be Pope is Pope.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And my gosh, I related to his struggle.

Speaker: It was great.

Speaker: Did you?

Speaker: I did.

Speaker: We'll talk about that in a little bit.

Speaker: I can see that.

Speaker: I can see him.

Speaker: He's like your spirit animal.

Speaker: I think Ralph Fiennes is my spirit animal.

Speaker: What?

Speaker: We found him.

Speaker: We found him.

Speaker: But it's just so fascinating.

Speaker: But the line that I love that I think encapsulates the conflict of the movie is he's talking with Stanley Tucci, who's sort of his...

Speaker: They're like- That's Stanley, he was all like, guys, I don't wanna be Pope.

Speaker: Don't even vote for me, I don't wanna be Pope.

Speaker: And then later he's like, of course I wanna be Pope.

Speaker: Everybody wants to be Pope.

Speaker: Everyone wants to be Pope.

Speaker: But then he has this really nice moment, I'm jumping ahead in the plot.

Speaker: But there's this line between the two of them because Stanley Tucci sees himself as the best possible victor to preserve like a liberal theology in the church and not go backwards as he would see it.

Speaker: And some of the liberal stuff was surprisingly.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: So the Vatican II stuff.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Which I'm not a liberal guy, but some of this means liberal.

Speaker: Some of his stuff was more liberal than me, but some of the like, we don't have to talk in Latin.

Speaker: I'm like, I'm good with that.

Speaker: I like that.

Speaker: I like being able to read.

Speaker: I think part of Vatican II was like increased biblical literacy.

Speaker: I think so.

Speaker: That sounds good.

Speaker: I think there was a lot of good in Vatican II.

Speaker: But he's like...

Speaker: Oh, I remember what it is.

Speaker: So there's this big controversy that's possibly going to come out.

Speaker: And Stanley Tucci's like, this cannot come out.

Speaker: It's going to jeopardize our cause.

Speaker: It's going to tarnish the curate, which I think is like the order of the cardinals.

Speaker: And we don't need that right now because we need to be united and we need to be able to push this agenda forward in the church because it's what the church needs.

Speaker: And Ralph Fiennes goes, I thought we were here to serve God, not the curate.

Speaker: And I'm like, that's a great line.

Speaker: That was good.

Speaker: And then Stanley Tucci comes back and is like, don't be naive.

Speaker: Don't be naive.

Speaker: Like, that is a naive idea to just try and serve God amidst all of this.

Speaker: But then Stanley Tucci sort of backs back up on him.

Speaker: He does.

Speaker: He is good.

Speaker: I love Rafe.

Speaker: But...

Speaker: Yeah, so, okay, I've given, like, a 30,000-foot view.

Speaker: I've rambled a whole lot.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: What were your thoughts on it?

Speaker: Tell me your thoughts so I stop rambling.

Speaker: I thought it was cinematically interesting.

Speaker: Oh, yes.

Speaker: The cinematic language was great.

Speaker: I have a lot of thoughts on it.

Speaker: Like, the sound design made it very, like... My wife Ellie pointed out how, like, they're really showing the dichotomy between, like...

Speaker: The holy, mysterious high things and the grungy everyday things.

Speaker: Right from the get-go.

Speaker: Right from the start.

Speaker: When the Pope dies, they're like... Cracking knuckles.

Speaker: Yeah, they're trying to get the papal ring off of his finger.

Speaker: And it's just so... It's one of the most uncomfortable shots I've seen in a while of this...

Speaker: just trying to get this ring off of this dead man's finger that has swollen and will not get off.

Speaker: And then they get it off and then it goes right into the ritual.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: That's just crazy.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And you have like the Pope's like smoking and stuff.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: Not the Pope's.

Speaker: There's many Pope's.

Speaker: This was a very controversial movie.

Speaker: They were like, let's have what if all the apostles were Pope's?

Speaker: Something.

Speaker: But yeah, just but like very much like

Speaker: this like high church mysterious thing mixed with just like a lot of like grunge of the environment.

Speaker: And they really played up in the sound design, grungy sound effects, like little big hits on the microphone of like doors closing and different things.

Speaker: And one of my favorite visual motifs too was the, the way they used light and darkness and black and white in the movie.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: which a video essay I had watched had pointed it out initially that it's very claustrophobic once they cloister.

Speaker: And then there's a moment where light breaks through in a very big way, which we can talk about in a second.

Speaker: That was interesting.

Speaker: And from then on, it's like this breath of fresh air and like the presence of God is a lot more visible in there.

Speaker: And I feel like that's shown visually a lot through white and light, which is also interesting because every time that they vote, if they haven't reached the decision for a pope yet, they'll put up black smoke.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Once they have reached the decision for the pope, they put up white smoke.

Speaker: So there's an interesting visual motif throughout of darkness and light, black and white.

Speaker: And I think you can see when it's more oppressive and you either can feel less of God in your situation or the characters are not doing as well at connecting with God or seeking God's will based on

Speaker: How is that?

Speaker: And like right before they make their final decision on who the Pope should be, they're all walking down in white umbrellas and the screen is just kind of covered in white.

Speaker: And it's like, oh, they've all found their purity and their holiness again.

Speaker: They've all gotten back.

Speaker: Oh, good point.

Speaker: Yeah, it has a lot of interesting things to say about man's will versus God's will and like our ambition versus God's design.

Speaker: But I think the thing that struck me most was like the aspect of mystery in it.

Speaker: There's right at the start of the conclave.

Speaker: Hang on.

Speaker: If I start on this, I'm going to go for like a thousand hours because I'm going to talk about this whole thing and it's going to go long.

Speaker: So I want to ask you if you have any other thoughts and then I'll come back.

Speaker: Oh, I'm not going to leave it, but I'm like, I'm monopolizing the conversation.

Speaker: I want to hear more from you of what you thought.

Speaker: If you have more thoughts.

Speaker: Maybe as we go through.

Speaker: Interject, interrupt me.

Speaker: Throw water in my face and say, shut up, John.

Speaker: John.

Speaker: Come on, man.

Speaker: I wanted to say that.

Speaker: Okay, I'll talk about this part, and then I'll talk about how I relate to Lawrence, because that will pick up on that thread that we were talking about last episode.

Speaker: We're going to pick up the thread.

Speaker: We're going to pick up the thread.

Speaker: I wrote it down.

Speaker: I think you have more thoughts about this one.

Speaker: I just loved it so much.

Speaker: Is it something?

Speaker: It's...

Speaker: So also side note, before I jump into this, one of the reasons I loved it so much is I think it is a movie that treated the Christian faith in our day to day life and a relationship with God with the weight that I feel it with.

Speaker: And I have, I don't think I have ever, especially not in Christian movies, ever seen it accurately depicted with that amount of weight.

Speaker: Like it felt like these decisions that were spiritual decisions were life and death.

Speaker: And the artistry behind it was just so, so behind and supporting that, that I was like, wow, this is how it feels to me to navigate these spiritual situations, to navigate.

Speaker: We talked last episode about difficult situations in people's lives and figuring out how to navigate those as a Christian.

Speaker: And like, this is how it feels to me, this heavy, this weighty, sometimes this oppressive.

Speaker: It's like, I don't think that,

Speaker: the decisions we make in the Christian faith and the way we walk out that faith has ever, to my knowledge on film, been treated with so much weight and such high stakes as in this film.

Speaker: And obviously there are very high stakes in this film.

Speaker: So mystery.

Speaker: Near the start of the film, there is a random cardinal who rolls up.

Speaker: and chuck his name's chuck um oh darn what is his name i don't remember but he's mexican and was uh

Speaker: ordained as a cardinal in pectorum, I think is the word that they used, which basically means in secret by the Pope, because his ministry is to be in Afghanistan, one of the highest persecuted areas of the church.

Speaker: But the previous Pope that died is like, well, I think Afghanistan deserves a cardinal because the ministry going on there is that important.

Speaker: So this is the man I'm choosing.

Speaker: I'm doing it in secret so that it's not public, so that he's safe and protected.

Speaker: And so he just rolls up and they're just like,

Speaker: A random cardinal appeared.

Speaker: We don't know who he is.

Speaker: But he has all the documents to, like, certify that he is one.

Speaker: Guess he's a cardinal.

Speaker: I guess he's a cardinal.

Speaker: And so they're, like, going to lunch.

Speaker: And Lawrence is like, hey, all you other cardinals, I'm introducing this new cardinal.

Speaker: Please pray for us.

Speaker: And immediately he has this lovely prayer.

Speaker: He has a nice prayer.

Speaker: He does the, like...

Speaker: the classic Catholic prayer for a meal.

Speaker: And then they all start to sit down.

Speaker: And he's like, no, I've got more.

Speaker: I just got a few more sweet things to say.

Speaker: And he doesn't make a big deal out of it.

Speaker: He just keeps going.

Speaker: No, because he's just like, I'm a real believer that cares about people.

Speaker: And so he prays.

Speaker: It's just a beautiful prayer.

Speaker: Simple.

Speaker: And he's just sort of in the background for this.

Speaker: He's an important character, but he's in the background for most of it.

Speaker: And he thinks that our main guy should be Pope.

Speaker: Yes, he thinks Lawrence should be Pope.

Speaker: He votes for him several times.

Speaker: And Lawrence is like, stop voting for him!

Speaker: Stop it!

Speaker: No!

Speaker: He's like, no.

Speaker: I'm going to vote for you.

Speaker: You're the guy.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: So... I guess maybe I am.

Speaker: Maybe I am.

Speaker: Dang it.

Speaker: Um...

Speaker: And then Lawrence gives a beautiful homily about faith and doubt.

Speaker: And he is wrestling with doubts in his own life about prayer.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: There's an interesting discussion about- It didn't get much specific other than that.

Speaker: It didn't.

Speaker: But I thought it was nice that it wasn't like a doubting God's existence.

Speaker: It's just, oh, he's struggling just with prayer.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: There was a lot of questions about doubt, but it was never about God.

Speaker: And that was another line that I really loved.

Speaker: was from Stanley Tucci talking about the Pope and his doubt.

Speaker: And he's talking to Ralph Fiennes and it's like, the Pope doubted too, because they're talking about their doubts.

Speaker: Yeah, I guess even the Pope, if the Pope can doubt in God then, and then Stanley said.

Speaker: It was never in God, but he doubted the church.

Speaker: Yep.

Speaker: And I'm like, oof, that hit hard right now.

Speaker: You know, because there's a lot of churches that I'm like, they're not doing church very well.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: They don't seem to be in the body of Christ very well.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: But I think a lot of times that was, again, just a nice, beautiful thing that you're not seeing culture this day.

Speaker: Yeah, these filmmakers didn't go for like, let's have some, let's have some atheist popes up here.

Speaker: Right, it's like, instead it was like, no, God is important.

Speaker: We humans are flawed.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And the church is gonna screw up and has and will, and that's awful and should not be minimized.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But it doesn't mean that God is not as, still as, as, as,

Speaker: real and powerful and gracious.

Speaker: You don't have to doubt God.

Speaker: You can doubt the church.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Absolutely.

Speaker: Even if, you know, I'm Anglican.

Speaker: I think the church has an important role.

Speaker: We're pretty high church.

Speaker: We think the church traditions are not like ordained from God, but that they matter.

Speaker: You know, I like the church, but it's fine to doubt the church.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: The church messes up, but you don't have to, that doesn't mean you have to doubt God.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: That was beautiful to see.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So Lawrence is wrestling with his doubts throughout, and it's all very subtextual.

Speaker: Like, I don't know exactly what he's doubting.

Speaker: I just know he's struggling with prayer.

Speaker: And so he gives this homily to all these cardinals to sort of set the tone.

Speaker: And he talks about...

Speaker: He says, I hope that we have a Pope who doubts because if we didn't have doubt, there would be no need for faith.

Speaker: And if we didn't have the tension between faith and doubt, there would be no mystery.

Speaker: What did you think of that?

Speaker: I loved it.

Speaker: You liked it.

Speaker: I did like it.

Speaker: I wasn't sure what to think of it.

Speaker: I, because I don't think that doubt, I think he's right in that doubt is in some sense,

Speaker: part of faith.

Speaker: It's part of the wrestling?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Because we who wrestle with God.

Speaker: Faith is leaping over the chasm of doubt.

Speaker: Not to say that doubt isn't there, not to not recognize it.

Speaker: If you're jumping over it, you still have to recognize it and do the jump, right?

Speaker: But

Speaker: But if you don't have doubt.

Speaker: Well, if you don't have doubt, then I don't know.

Speaker: Is that nice?

Speaker: I mean, yeah.

Speaker: Well, okay.

Speaker: Sometimes I don't doubt.

Speaker: This is going to be a weird conversation because I'm going to talk about ways in which I'm relating to Lawrence and some of his doubt.

Speaker: And I'm also going to talk now about how sometimes I don't doubt.

Speaker: It's fine.

Speaker: I'm a complex individual.

Speaker: Yeah, man.

Speaker: Like...

Speaker: Sometimes I wish I doubted a little bit more than I do because, and I don't know, maybe this is unhealthy of me.

Speaker: Maybe I've just had a tragic life, but, but a lot of times I'm like, everything could blow up and you know, would I be grumpy?

Speaker: Yeah, but I'd probably be fine with God.

Speaker: He kind of knows what's best.

Speaker: Like, I'm not going to doubt that, you know?

Speaker: And I'm like, that seems inhuman of me.

Speaker: Oh, I see.

Speaker: And so, and in some, in some sense, I think if you had a bigger love for people, you would doubt the pain that comes from God.

Speaker: I don't even know if it's that, like, it makes me feel like my relationship with God in some sense is just robotic where I'm just like, yeah, I'm just always doing this.

Speaker: I see.

Speaker: I think there's some dynamism that you get from doubt.

Speaker: I think there's some things you learn from doubt in that wrestling.

Speaker: And I think

Speaker: And I- With the goal of- Of greater faith.

Speaker: Overcoming, greater faith, yeah.

Speaker: And I think there's some sense where maybe we'll wrestle with our doubts our entire walk.

Speaker: But if we cling to the faith- Yeah.

Speaker: Like there's something there are solid things about God to hang on to whilst we have.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And so you want to be hanging on with that one hand.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Well, and like I liken it to my theology of the Eucharist, which is that God is more Jesus specifically is really present in this bread and wine.

Speaker: that it is in some sense really his body and blood, even if that doesn't I don't believe in transubstantiation, which is that it is physically turned into that.

Speaker: But I believe that he said that I believe he said, if you eat my body and drink of my blood or unless you do this, then you have no part in me.

Speaker: And I don't understand how that can happen.

Speaker: But what I can cling on to is Jesus's words that he's present in that.

Speaker: This is this is a specific theological example to me where I've seen that.

Speaker: You can extrapolate that out further.

Speaker: So do that work yourselves, guys, and make it more general.

Speaker: Work out your own self.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You.

Speaker: Good quote.

Speaker: I like that.

Speaker: But it's like, okay, I maybe don't get this.

Speaker: Or some Sundays I'll roll up and I'll eat it and I'll drink some wine.

Speaker: And I'm like, well, it feels like all I've done right now is eat some bread and drink some wine.

Speaker: Was it even good bread?

Speaker: I like communion bread.

Speaker: Yeah, right.

Speaker: I don't know why, but I do.

Speaker: But then I'm like, okay, maybe I didn't feel it or whatever, but God said he's there.

Speaker: So I believe he's there.

Speaker: Yeah, man.

Speaker: I think there's a great value in that.

Speaker: Sometimes I wish I did that.

Speaker: I think the people who doubt can be some of the strongest believers and the most empathetic and the best at sort of reaching people and navigating things with them.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Because they're not just Pollyannas.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Because it can be, I have to do a lot of work to empathize with somebody who's doubting God's nature.

Speaker: And I don't like that I have to do that.

Speaker: somebody who's doubting God's goodness, because I just don't.

Speaker: And I don't know why I try and count it as a gift because it's nice.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But I just don't.

Speaker: And I don't like that because then if I'm missionally trying to reach somebody, they're like, man, do I how do I even know that God's good?

Speaker: And I'm just like, because he is.

Speaker: That's a stupid question.

Speaker: I'm like, that's not a very kind mission.

Speaker: I think that is a gift, though, especially if you recognize it.

Speaker: But it is like this two-edged sword where, in some sense, that's great that I've never doubted God's goodness of character and goodness towards me.

Speaker: But on the flip side, those people who have doubted that and have had to wrestle with that and go through that have...

Speaker: Some other areas of their faith deepened that I may not.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And I've had this sort of...

Speaker: Does that make sense?

Speaker: Yeah, it does.

Speaker: It's like, oh, I wish I had a more interesting testimony kind of thing.

Speaker: But then it's like, I have to just remember that God is the author of all of our stories, including the struggle we have with not having an interesting story.

Speaker: And that there are struggles with that.

Speaker: And those are...

Speaker: don't sound interesting, but those are struggles because we don't get maybe that as clear of the night and day difference that someone who was brought out of a life of drugs and stuff like my dad or whatever.

Speaker: But God writes our stories and he's in charge of it and he knows what we need to work through towards glory, towards sanctification, even if it's this inner...

Speaker: weird thing like you're talking about yeah yeah yeah it's cool so this i think there's this thread of mystery with god that weaves throughout and i think i just think the film wonderfully portrays god's presence because i don't know there is one scene where i think you can pinpoint and be like right there that's god um but most of the time it's just sort of there's just sort of this air that

Speaker: He's there somewhere.

Speaker: He's doing something.

Speaker: It's mysterious.

Speaker: He's taking us somewhere, but we don't really know where it is.

Speaker: So eventually it gets to the point where our candidates for Pope have been eliminated one by one because of scandals or this or that.

Speaker: And it's basically down to Cardinal Lawrence is the only liberal option.

Speaker: So it's Cardinal Lawrence or it's Mr. Fettuccine.

Speaker: Mr. Fettuccine.

Speaker: Who is like...

Speaker: Pretty racist and not great.

Speaker: He's like, can you imagine if we had an African as a pope?

Speaker: Like, well, screw you, mister.

Speaker: Have you read the theology of Augustine?

Speaker: Then you'll like Africans.

Speaker: Sex to be you.

Speaker: Probably didn't.

Speaker: Wow, he's missing out.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: He's like the foundation of the Western church.

Speaker: Church?

Speaker: Church.

Speaker: Church is the foundation of the Western church.

Speaker: Well, other than Jesus.

Speaker: Theological interpretation.

Speaker: Anyways.

Speaker: And Lawrence is like, maybe I should be Pope.

Speaker: Yeah?

Speaker: And I was kinda like, yeah.

Speaker: I was too!

Speaker: You go be Pope, buddy.

Speaker: I was like, yeah, you're the right choice.

Speaker: And write your name in.

Speaker: Mr. Mexican man who's been supporting you.

Speaker: Don't be false humility.

Speaker: Write your name in.

Speaker: Yeah, write it in.

Speaker: Own it.

Speaker: Did you notice he wrote it with worse handwriting than the other times he wrote it?

Speaker: Oh, that's cool.

Speaker: The other names were just very, like, I think Nate Script or something like that, but his name was just kind of uneven, blocky letters.

Speaker: Oh, that's cool.

Speaker: That's neat.

Speaker: Yeah, so it's one of, I think, the most exquisitely directed sequences in the film, which is saying something because it's full of exquisitely directed sequences.

Speaker: When he breaks the seal, that's a great, he breaks the seal into the Pope's room at one point, and that just has so much weight to it.

Speaker: He's getting sneaky.

Speaker: So great, he's getting sneaky.

Speaker: But he's like, okay, I'm going to vote for myself because I think it's what's right.

Speaker: I think I should be Pope.

Speaker: And I think as an audience, you're kind of behind him.

Speaker: Yeah, you, man.

Speaker: You didn't want to be Pope.

Speaker: So he writes it.

Speaker: And he, like, screws his courage to the sticking post.

Speaker: Stuck right there.

Speaker: And he brings it up to where he's supposed to turn in his vote.

Speaker: And he says the thing that they say right before they cast their vote in the film.

Speaker: It's a cool thing they say.

Speaker: They do.

Speaker: It's like, I swear before...

Speaker: I think it's like before you and before God that this is this is truly who I believe should be pope.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It's something to that effect.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It's more elegant and cool and Italian or something.

Speaker: And he's like, I 100 percent believe that this is God's will.

Speaker: Sets the ballot down.

Speaker: As soon as his ballot slides in, the Sistine Chapel explodes.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And light pours in.

Speaker: Yeah, because they boarded up the window so that these droppers couldn't listen to the glass.

Speaker: Yes, that's a very important detail.

Speaker: So this room has just been oppressive and dark this whole time.

Speaker: And then he's like, I think I know what God's will is, and it's for me to be Pope.

Speaker: Puts it in, boom, light shining through.

Speaker: And it's like...

Speaker: Did you know right away what that meant?

Speaker: Because I was like, does that mean yes or does that mean no?

Speaker: I don't know if I knew right away.

Speaker: I'm trying to think back.

Speaker: I think I thought no because something about it didn't feel good to me.

Speaker: Oh.

Speaker: Something about the filmmaking I was like, this feels more dreadful than inspiring.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And there was just this silence that hung over it.

Speaker: And light streams in for the first time.

Speaker: And you find out- It was because of a bomb.

Speaker: That it was a suicide bomber.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Blew it up.

Speaker: And then Mr. Fettuccine is like, see, this is why we need a holy war.

Speaker: We gotta get those guys who blow us up.

Speaker: And people are like, maybe not that far.

Speaker: And then our fun surprise cardinal stands up and gives, I think, just such a beautiful speech about the church.

Speaker: He's very unpolitical either way, right?

Speaker: He's very unpolitical, but he is like, you're calling for a war, but I've actually seen war.

Speaker: And what you're talking about is not going after this suicide bomber or this car bomber, but these women and children and men.

Speaker: That's what you're talking about.

Speaker: And we're talking about everything that the church has been, but what we do now and how we move forward.

Speaker: is what the church is.

Speaker: And it, and it, I, maybe this was subtextual.

Speaker: Maybe this was just how it, how I took it, but it felt like we're fighting over all of these things in the church, but what if we just did what Jesus told the church to do and move forward?

Speaker: And we sought to make disciples of nations.

Speaker: We sought to care for the poor, the widow, the oppressed, the foreigner, the orphan, all of these.

Speaker: and just do that and look forward and do that.

Speaker: And he just says that and sits down and it's stunned silence.

Speaker: They're stunned.

Speaker: They're stunned.

Speaker: We're so silent.

Speaker: We are very, why are we so silent?

Speaker: Because it was a good speech.

Speaker: Nice speech, dude.

Speaker: And so then they all come with their white umbrellas and it's like, oh, it seems like, and you're like, oh, I wonder, I wonder if this is going to be, oh.

Speaker: And then they vote for Pope again, and you hear Lawrence a few times, and it's like, oh, I wonder if it's Lawrence.

Speaker: We like Lawrence.

Speaker: We finally get Lawrence in, and then you just get this montage of people clapping, and then you see Lawrence clapping.

Speaker: He's not clapping for himself.

Speaker: He's not clapping for himself, and you see that this surprise cardinal was named Pope.

Speaker: Pope Phil.

Speaker: Pope Phil.

Speaker: And he chooses the name Innocent, which I think is lovely.

Speaker: That is sweet.

Speaker: That is sweet.

Speaker: And then controversy happens once again.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: This is the most controversial thing.

Speaker: Maybe not even necessary, but it was interesting.

Speaker: It was interesting.

Speaker: I liked it.

Speaker: We can talk about why in a second.

Speaker: And then we can talk about how I relate to Lawrence.

Speaker: This is getting to be a long episode, but I think it's great.

Speaker: I just have so much to say about this movie.

Speaker: I love it.

Speaker: Lawrence, Cardinal Lawrence, good old Rafe, has had this like assistant that's been like going out into the world.

Speaker: Chad.

Speaker: Chad is his name?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Good old Chad.

Speaker: Chad's been going out because he's sequestered.

Speaker: He cannot go out.

Speaker: So he's like, I need you to research this.

Speaker: You're my Watson.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Because he's like, there's all these like...

Speaker: things that are maybe happening and I need to find out because if these people are unqualified to be Pope, they should not be Pope.

Speaker: I like when there was something that came up, he always went to the individual.

Speaker: He did.

Speaker: My favorite scene still was

Speaker: As far as going to the individual was still probably the one with that, the army, though.

Speaker: But I thought it was so beautiful.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: The African.

Speaker: Yeah, that was because it was there was a mistake 30 years ago in his past.

Speaker: And he was like, yes, I made a mistake, but I was a different man.

Speaker: And there's grace.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And I believe that God's calling me to the papacy.

Speaker: And he's like, you're you you won't be pope.

Speaker: It was a sexual scandal.

Speaker: And he's like, not the worst sexual scandal there could be.

Speaker: No sexual scandal.

Speaker: And he's like, the church will not elect somebody who's had a sexual scandal in their past.

Speaker: We are trying to get away from that.

Speaker: And it's just this raw scene as this man's hopes are just breaking down.

Speaker: I wanted to be Pope.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: And at that point, I was like, he'd be a great Pope.

Speaker: I love an African Pope.

Speaker: I'd be so behind an African Pope, my dude.

Speaker: That would be cool.

Speaker: Right?

Speaker: I've never seen that.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: It'd be so cool.

Speaker: Have we?

Speaker: No, I don't think so.

Speaker: I haven't.

Speaker: I have not.

Speaker: You neither?

Speaker: Oh, no.

Speaker: Oh.

Speaker: But he's like sobbing and breaking down and Lawrence is about to go and then he asks him to pray with him.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And Lawrence is like, of course, insists down and prayers with him, even though he's having doubts about prayer.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Huh.

Speaker: Anyways.

Speaker: Where were we?

Speaker: Scandal.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: So he has his Watson, Chad, who's going out to like do all this investigating and stuff.

Speaker: And there has been a question about what's the background of this cardinal.

Speaker: They've been finding things out about him.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: He had like a...

Speaker: He had like some health issues.

Speaker: He had a ministry toward women.

Speaker: But no, not health issues?

Speaker: Yeah, there was a health issue.

Speaker: He was sent to a clinic in Switzerland by the Pope to take care of a health issue that they didn't know about.

Speaker: And then he decided not to... He never ended up actually going through to the clinic.

Speaker: And the guy finally finds out what it is.

Speaker: And Ralph Fiennes goes to confront him.

Speaker: We haven't found out yet.

Speaker: We don't know.

Speaker: And speaks to him.

Speaker: And...

Speaker: is clearly very disturbed and is like, we just elected the Pope, but he's got something wrong with them.

Speaker: He's got something wrong with them that the church maybe is not okay with.

Speaker: And he is like, you are about to be the most famous man in the world and one of the most important men in the world.

Speaker: You need to tell me what your situation is.

Speaker: And immediately this guy knows what it's about.

Speaker: So he asks for privacy and shares that

Speaker: the medical procedure that he was going to get would be a hysterectomy.

Speaker: What?

Speaker: To remove his uterus.

Speaker: I thought this was a guy.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It's crazy.

Speaker: It is a guy.

Speaker: It is a guy.

Speaker: I'm okay with it because it's a guy.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Not that I would, I think you could also, I think you could have a theology discussion.

Speaker: It's not just because he's a guy as opposed to being a girl.

Speaker: That's it.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Hang on.

Speaker: Now I'm muddling my thing.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: Because what it's adjacent to is the discussion about the transgender community, right?

Speaker: And so I don't know what the filmmakers were intending.

Speaker: But immediately, he has an intersex disorder.

Speaker: He was born with an intersex disorder.

Speaker: He thought he was a guy his whole life.

Speaker: He is a guy.

Speaker: He is a guy, but he has a uterus.

Speaker: He's got these extra parts.

Speaker: He's like a super.

Speaker: And a chromosome is messed up in there because that's what causes an intersex disorder is there's some weird chromosomal thing and then there's which intersex disorders can be anything.

Speaker: Balding can be an intersex disorder.

Speaker: Whoa.

Speaker: So yeah, I know I could, I could have an intersex disorder.

Speaker: Dude.

Speaker: I don't think I do.

Speaker: I think I just have male pattern baldness.

Speaker: Thanks.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: You think I could be the Pope if I turned Catholic?

Speaker: You might.

Speaker: You might like that.

Speaker: I don't want to be the Pope.

Speaker: Not me.

Speaker: You'd make a great Pope then.

Speaker: You didn't even want to be the Pope.

Speaker: Oh, stop.

Speaker: Who's making the Pope?

Speaker: But...

Speaker: It is this weird, uncomfortable place because it's really close to this current modern sort of theological squabble.

Speaker: But it's not there.

Speaker: I'm okay with it.

Speaker: But what I do like is that the person that in the story God chose as Pope is unexpected, is messy, is...

Speaker: is not able to be like... Picture perfect.

Speaker: Picture perfect and like pinned down to a box.

Speaker: And he has a very beautiful speech too because he's like, I thought about going and getting my uterus removed so that I would match my sex, what I essentially am.

Speaker: But...

Speaker: I felt weird modifying my body.

Speaker: I felt like that it might be a greater sin to tarnish God's handiwork than to change to map myself and all of my parts to being completely just male parts.

Speaker: I'm assuming he's got the male parts.

Speaker: Well, yes.

Speaker: Because he didn't know until he was like into his priesthood that this w as a thing.

Speaker: And so, but I... Because he had such great guilt when he was like, I'm a priest?

Speaker: And...

Speaker: Am I a girl?

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Which I mean is fair if you discover you have a uterus.

Speaker: You're like, what is that?

Speaker: But it's just, it's messy.

Speaker: It's interesting.

Speaker: And it's not something that we know what to do with.

Speaker: But God knows what to do with it.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It made me think.

Speaker: I was like, am I okay with this?

Speaker: I'm not really sure what the movie's saying.

Speaker: And I am.

Speaker: What I was trying to say was if they were...

Speaker: like if this if the genders were swapped and it was like a woman who was born with an intersex disorder, I would also arguably be OK with it.

Speaker: There's more question around theology and like women in leadership.

Speaker: But it was I was what I was trying to say earlier was like, I'm not OK with it because he's specifically a man, but because of where it's like landing on the

Speaker: on the theology there where I feel more comfortable with it.

Speaker: Because I had a muddled statement earlier.

Speaker: So it was less about like, what sex is he and more that he's embracing how God created him.

Speaker: I like that.

Speaker: And it did it in a messy way, which I think is appropriate for the time that we're in, because it's a tricky it's a tricky time to be living and navigating as a Christian.

Speaker: But I feel like that just puts the cap on the mystery thing of God is like, I'm so mysterious that even the person that I chose to be Pope is also mysterious and weird.

Speaker: And you can't quite pin him down, but he is the person I made for this.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Love him and ordained him for this.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: In the, in the, in the world of the movie, obviously, depending on your theology of the Pope.

Speaker: Fake world, real God.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: So I just thought that thread of mystery throughout was really nice.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay, I'm going to jump to one other discussion, and then we can put the pin in the point from earlier, because I wanted to touch on discernment.

Speaker: Oh, yeah.

Speaker: With watching something, and I think this more naturally flows into it.

Speaker: So, did you have any thoughts on any of that?

Speaker: Because I just talked a lot.

Speaker: Oh.

Speaker: I feel like I'm just, like, rambling on this episode.

Speaker: I think I said mostly, like... I felt like they were trying to...

Speaker: be quite weird and controversial.

Speaker: And for a second I thought that, but then like, it's not really controversial.

Speaker: So I don't know if the filmmakers know that it's not that controversial.

Speaker: But I think other people maybe think it is controversial.

Speaker: I liked that it made me think.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, it did to me too.

Speaker: And here's where I'm going to talk about discernment.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Because there's been people online who have just been like, boycott this movie.

Speaker: Don't watch this movie.

Speaker: What?

Speaker: Who said that?

Speaker: Ben Shapiro.

Speaker: Well, he didn't say it.

Speaker: He said watch it and then be angry about it.

Speaker: Why did he not like?

Speaker: That.

Speaker: He is so politically charged.

Speaker: He's a political animal.

Speaker: No, he thinks that they were saying that he was transgender is, I think what he says.

Speaker: Yeah, that's not what they're saying.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: I don't think so either.

Speaker: But there's a lot of Catholics who have also been like, this is not an accurate representation of the Catholic faith.

Speaker: Don't watch it.

Speaker: Granted, I'm Anglican.

Speaker: I'm not Catholic.

Speaker: So I'm Catholic adjacent.

Speaker: I could feel like you're messing with our thing.

Speaker: This is not how we do it.

Speaker: So I can see that.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But I think a lot of times that that sort of, that idea of just don't watch this thing.

Speaker: This is bad and shouldn't have been made.

Speaker: Boycott it, don't watch it, but talk about how it's bad.

Speaker: And then that's labeled as discernment.

Speaker: I'm being discerning as somebody who's taking in art.

Speaker: I think it's more compelling and more growing as a Christian person

Speaker: Granted, caveat, this is a matter of conscience.

Speaker: So your conscience and the Holy Spirit will lead you to, like, I'm never going to watch Game of Thrones.

Speaker: Maybe a Christian can watch Game of Thrones and be totally fine and then wrestle with some interesting things.

Speaker: I can't.

Speaker: That's just, it's got too much in it that I'm like, I don't want to fill my brain with this.

Speaker: It's going to be bad for me.

Speaker: It's the thrones.

Speaker: Right?

Speaker: I can't deal with thrones.

Speaker: They're pokey.

Speaker: But some other people are fine with thrones.

Speaker: They're fine.

Speaker: They're like, I don't care about pokey thrones.

Speaker: I don't want them.

Speaker: I can deal.

Speaker: I can deal with it and watch and be like, hmm, what if pokey thrones and God?

Speaker: But for me, I'm like, no.

Speaker: Pass.

Speaker: Pass.

Speaker: But I think it's a lot more compelling to be like, and it's kind of like the argument against banned books, right?

Speaker: Like, immediately I'm like,

Speaker: to a degree, banned books, I think there's a lot of banned books that are like, well, that was just badly written, like smug, you know?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: The Apostles buried some books.

Speaker: That's true.

Speaker: Magic books.

Speaker: That's true.

Speaker: But immediately when there's a work of art that somebody's like, boycott this, I'm like, it would be a lot more compelling to watch it and then discern.

Speaker: Don't discern before you've watched it and say, this is automatically bad.

Speaker: maybe conclave is not as beautiful a representation of the christian faith and a relationship with god and the mystery of god and and and the state of the church as i think it is but i think it's a lot more compelling and interesting because we've talked about this movie i've ranted about this movie at least for like 58 minutes pretty good that's a lot of conversation topics yeah i think it's a lot more compelling to watch

Speaker: take in a piece of art that will make you think, even if it's uncomfortable, even if it's trumpeting a worldview that you don't like, to think about it and wrestle with that and come to a place.

Speaker: I love that that ending was just offbeat enough with that cardinal that I was like, oh, am I okay with that theologically?

Speaker: Has all of this journey been worth it for me?

Speaker: Now I have to wrestle with this and do a thought experiment about this situation and try and see what this film is saying about that and what are the themes there.

Speaker: And obviously other people are going to read that scene differently than I do.

Speaker: Ben Shapiro and I read it very differently.

Speaker: But I love that it made me think.

Speaker: And then I am being discerning by taking in the art

Speaker: and then discerning afterwards.

Speaker: And then if I'm like, that's bad for me, I'm not gonna watch it again.

Speaker: And again, there's still some like- You can know ahead of time that it's gonna be not a good thing to consume at all.

Speaker: Like Nosferatu just came out recently.

Speaker: And even though I know the director's great,

Speaker: I'm like, I'm not going to watch that.

Speaker: I know there's junk in there.

Speaker: I want to watch another one of his movies, The Northman, I want to see very badly.

Speaker: But I'm not going to watch Nosferatu because I know what's in it.

Speaker: And I know that's not going to be good.

Speaker: I'm not saying no Christian can watch that and not get something out of it.

Speaker: But me, no, certainly not.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But if it's just because it's trumpeting a worldview, I don't like.

Speaker: Just a worldview thing.

Speaker: Then I'm like, yeah, I think maybe you should dive in.

Speaker: I think maybe you should dive in.

Speaker: No, I don't think that we're necessarily captive by the art of the world and that, oh, just because somebody makes a thing, ah.

Speaker: Now I have to give two hours of my time to have to watch it.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: But I think what you're saying is true that there can be a lot of growth through the wrestle.

Speaker: And I know for me, that's often like, oh, that's uncomfortable.

Speaker: I don't want to have to deal with that wrestling.

Speaker: But I think that's probably good.

Speaker: Camera.

Speaker: Ad break.

Speaker: I'm going to switch up.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Entertain the audience, Nate.

Speaker: Oh, oh, are you still... Yes, this will be just for audio.

Speaker: They just get this fun a little bit, I guess.

Speaker: Oh.

Speaker: Hi, guys.

Speaker: What you doing?

Speaker: Driving down the road?

Speaker: A little snowy out there?

Speaker: You be careful now.

Speaker: We're coming back.

Speaker: We're back.

Speaker: We're back.

Speaker: You were saying about discernment.

Speaker: Oh, just that I don't think we're forced to watch everything that is put out, but that, to your point, it can be...

Speaker: it can be a growing thing to wrestle with it rather than just throw out something.

Speaker: And because even if there's people you trust, like, I like Ben Shapiro, but I don't agree with everything he says.

Speaker: And like, in this case, I like this movie where he hated it.

Speaker: And so, yeah.

Speaker: I think it's valuable.

Speaker: Do we want to talk about that unfinished point from earlier?

Speaker: What was it?

Speaker: Oh, that's right, because it was about mystery.

Speaker: What I wrote was God's mystery.

Speaker: Huh?

Speaker: Maybe we did talk about it.

Speaker: God's mystery enables us to love and carry out his will.

Speaker: Yes, because Lawrence, this is what I was thinking, Lawrence doesn't really quite know what God's will is.

Speaker: No.

Speaker: We were talking last episode about how messy it can be.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Trying to live that out.

Speaker: It's about the heart of it, right?

Speaker: Lawrence, I think, is a great example of that.

Speaker: He doesn't know who should be Pope.

Speaker: No.

Speaker: Until the end.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And...

Speaker: He's being messy, and he's like, oh, I really don't want to pry into these people's lives.

Speaker: Oh, but I guess I really have to.

Speaker: And that's messy.

Speaker: He does do a lot of prying.

Speaker: He breaks a seal on the Pope's room, which he's not supposed to do.

Speaker: That poor seal died.

Speaker: He murdered a seal in cold blood.

Speaker: No more bouncing balls.

Speaker: No more.

Speaker: But, like, he does, like, all these things, and...

Speaker: is like snooping around and like ruining people's lives.

Speaker: Like at least one guy's life.

Speaker: But in all of that, I think within the fiction of the film, I think he ran that conclave exactly how God wanted it to be run.

Speaker: I think arguably the only mistake he made was when he was like, I should be Pope.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: Maybe.

Speaker: And I'm not even convinced then.

Speaker: I just think that that's sort of the darkest point where it's the hardest for him to kind of see what God's will is.

Speaker: And then God breaks through in a really powerful way of like, nah, buddy.

Speaker: But I think that that's interesting.

Speaker: And I love it, especially because he says he's struggling with his prayer.

Speaker: He says he's having doubt in prayer, which is, of course, our primary sort of relational interaction with God.

Speaker: And you think if you're discerning his will, it's primarily through prayer.

Speaker: It should be right.

Speaker: And like scripture and things, but like prayer should be surrounding all of that.

Speaker: No, I've definitely been in like time or times in my life where it's like, I really want to know the answer of the thing to do.

Speaker: But then God like taught me probably still learning but that like that faith, it's not faith if you know everything of what it's going to be, how things are going to turn out in the end.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It does.

Speaker: And that's the part that I feel like I've been relating to a lot with that character.

Speaker: I think I was talking to Shay earlier today, and I think I maybe go through this every winter and haven't realized it.

Speaker: But, like, right now I feel...

Speaker: fairly distant from God in my prayer life, which is sucky, because I'm praying almost every day, because I'm Anglican, so we have morning and evening prayer.

Speaker: So I have my scheduled times of prayer, and I'm trying to talk to him throughout the day and trying to find moments of silence.

Speaker: But it kind of just feels like I'm throwing it out there.

Speaker: I'm like, well,

Speaker: I guess I know you're listening.

Speaker: And it's not like I'm never getting anything back.

Speaker: But then there's also a lot of life changes happening, some of which I can talk about and some of which I can't.

Speaker: And you go beyond words.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And there's a lot of like heavy situations that I'm navigating.

Speaker: Yeah, man.

Speaker: And I'm like, man, I just Lord, I'd love to.

Speaker: feel a little bit more sure that you were like hearing my prayers and were with me.

Speaker: And like, I know you are, but like, I don't get that deep sense of your presence.

Speaker: Like it feels murky.

Speaker: It feels oppressive.

Speaker: It feels like that sort of situation Lawrence is going in.

Speaker: But then it's, it's, it, watching it again today, I think.

Speaker: The shadow of death.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And just remembering, okay, okay.

Speaker: God is with me.

Speaker: God has a plan.

Speaker: God is leading me through this.

Speaker: Even if,

Speaker: It feels like my relationship with God is like survival mode is the word that's coming to mind, which is not to say it's in an unhealthy place, but it's just like for some reason that feels like it's like a long distance relationship right now.

Speaker: And we're still touching base a lot, you know, but it's not like we're hanging out at the pub every night.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So what's God's purpose in that phase of a relationship?

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: But it's been encouraging to me to remember that he's still there and working.

Speaker: I think this movie was a reminder of that, that even though there's really hard situations that I'm navigating and I'm praying about them, but a lot of times it feels like

Speaker: Like, I just have to trust that God's spirit is with me and I just have to try and do my best in the moment, which sometimes is good and sometimes it's not good.

Speaker: I had a time this weekend that was maybe not my best moment in navigating a situation.

Speaker: And I've had some other times where it has been a better, you know, navigation of a thing.

Speaker: But it's kind of stretching a different aspect of your relationship.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Faith that no matter what your feelings are and what comes, that he's there and he's leading you.

Speaker: And the faith that no matter if I know what to do or not, that he's there.

Speaker: Because to an extent...

Speaker: probably partially because of so many life changes, but also there's just a lot of crazy situations.

Speaker: And I connect to God a lot through nature.

Speaker: So when it's wintertime, I'm not out of nature as much because it's cold.

Speaker: But it's like, wow, there's all these things that normally I would go off and spend half an hour in the woods to like pray about and hear from God and be like, sure, that that's what God's got me doing.

Speaker: Whereas now it feels like, okay, I'm praying, I'm touching base.

Speaker: I think I'm making space to try and hear him and trying to submit it to him.

Speaker: But it feels like I just kind of have to do my best to try and honor him as I go.

Speaker: But I have to trust that even in that, as long as I'm being faithful, probably even if I'm not always being perfectly faithful, that he's still working and he is still faithful.

Speaker: For sure.

Speaker: And there's times where...

Speaker: We had a sermon at church the other day about patience over pride out of Ecclesiastes.

Speaker: And the idea was, one of the ideas is that if something is God's will, part of his plan, it's always going to include patience.

Speaker: And just how there's so much more blessing that God gives us when we go the route of patience versus the pride of making things happen ourself.

Speaker: And he used like David as an example of like so often...

Speaker: throughout his story he's just looking to God looking to God and then the one time that his says that David thought in his own head was when he was going to go live with the Philistines and like fight for them and stuff like that which could have had really and it did have bad consequences to it um

Speaker: that that was him rescuing himself from the situation versus the time where he's escaping from Absalom and dude B, this guy is hurling insults and curses on him and David's men are like, should we just go kill that guy?

Speaker: And God's like, no, if God wants him to curse me, let him and he'll take care of it kind of thing.

Speaker: And that's just an example of like trusting God with that patience.

Speaker: So just being okay sometimes with like not knowing what the answer is right away.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And knowing that you're not going to damn yourself if you don't know the right answer, you know?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, and my pastor said like, of course, there's things like sometimes we have to do things.

Speaker: But like the overriding principle is who's driving the car?

Speaker: Is it us or is it God?

Speaker: Is it him directing us to do something?

Speaker: Or is it him doing something?

Speaker: Or is it us making something happen?

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: That's where things get dangerous.

Speaker: And I think we can trust that he is driving the car, even if it doesn't always feel like he's driving the car.

Speaker: Like if we're overwhelmed or we're just kind of like, I feel like it's just like day by day right now, you know, and like, well, I'm just taking each moment as it comes.

Speaker: I don't have a lot of time for forward thinking and deep discernment on topics.

Speaker: And I'm trying to take time when I can and stuff, but I can still trust that.

Speaker: I'm telling Jesus to take the wheel, to take it from my hands.

Speaker: Which is a song that has surprisingly deep, rich truth to it.

Speaker: No, because I think day by day living is a beautiful way to live.

Speaker: Because that's the only place you can live in a way, because you can't live in the future, because you're not there, and God's with you right here.

Speaker: And God is big enough

Speaker: If you're really seeking his will, he's big enough to redirect you if you're not making the right choice.

Speaker: Yep.

Speaker: Yep.

Speaker: You just keep that open heart.

Speaker: Or to convict you if you do.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Like, it's kind of like doing a play.

Speaker: Sometimes I'll do a performance and I'll be like, well, that time it wasn't quite as good.

Speaker: I'll make a note of that and I'll do it better next time.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Pray God make use of it despite my weakness.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: which sometimes those are our best nights in place.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: People are like, wow, I was moved.

Speaker: And I was like, why?

Speaker: I sucked.

Speaker: Right, right.

Speaker: It's like, why couldn't you have been moved when I did good?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Moved by my awesomeness.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: That should have been really impactful to you.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But God gets his glory.

Speaker: Amen.

Speaker: Well, this was lovely.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Really long episodes of the last two episodes.

Speaker: There's two of us now.

Speaker: We like movies and there's two of us.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Ah, cool.

Speaker: Well, thank you for being here for the thing you've committed to.

Speaker: This is my home.

Speaker: I live in this corner now.

Speaker: You do?

Speaker: Ha!

Speaker: Now the turntables, now I've kidnapped you.

Speaker: It's okay.

Speaker: Nice corner.

Speaker: Great corner.

Speaker: And I can pay my mortgage so my house can stay put together.

Speaker: I'm paying to be in this corner.

Speaker: You are?

Speaker: It's great.

Speaker: I can quit my job now.

Speaker: Cool.

Speaker: Well, have a good week, guys.

Speaker: God bless.

Speaker: Thanks for tuning in.

Speaker: Tuning in?

Speaker: We're not radio, we're a podcast.

Speaker: Tune that dial.

Speaker: Tune that dial to Apple CarPlay.

Speaker: Yeah.