Transcript
Speaker: Hello friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John, the host.
Speaker: Today, I'm very excited to have my good friend, Walt Williams, on the podcast.
Speaker: Walt is the artistic director over at Master Arts Theatre.
Speaker: He just returned there in 2023, no, 2024, excuse me, after a long time stint over in Florida.
Speaker: It's been really great to have him back, and so we just wanted to sit down and chat about what it's been like jumping back into the theatre after all these years.
Speaker: and just sort of what has he been learning, what's he been discovering in this new role over at Master Arts Theatre.
Speaker: This is going to be an audio-only episode just because I had to travel and bring the gear, so we weren't able to get a video recorded, but it is a wonderful discussion.
Speaker: I'm really excited to share it with you guys, so thanks for joining us.
Speaker: So how are you doing today?
Speaker: Besides the throat infection, I'm doing good.
Speaker: Which is a great thing to have for a podcast.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: Well, I'm really excited to talk to you because, well, A, it's just great that you're back now and doing things in this area and in this community again.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: But yeah, I just am excited to talk to you about what's going on in your life, artistically and spiritually.
Speaker: So I have a couple questions I'll ask everybody at the start.
Speaker: The first one is, how is God using art in your life right now?
Speaker: Either with you creating things or you as an audience or partaker of the art, just sort of receiving it.
Speaker: For me, art is a door.
Speaker: It's because art is something that can open up the door to so many things, so many people.
Speaker: It's a common ground that...
Speaker: that many people will come and watch or come and participate and come.
Speaker: And it gives me the opportunity to meet new people.
Speaker: It gives me the opportunity to worship with new people because that's definitely been a thing here at Master Arts.
Speaker: And to tell people,
Speaker: And to give people hope, give people confidence.
Speaker: And for me, it's a door to God.
Speaker: It really is.
Speaker: Because people come to see a play when they won't come to see a sermon.
Speaker: So you can bring them to a play and bring them to a spot where they'll actually...
Speaker: Be your friend because you're in theater.
Speaker: Do you find do you find it true for you, too, that when you're going and watching a play or something that that can reach you differently than a sermon maybe can, even if we I know we both love sermons, but.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, oh, definitely.
Speaker: Definitely.
Speaker: I remember Pris telling this story.
Speaker: One of our longtime supporters was vehemently against theater and church.
Speaker: And he, Pris took a traveling troupe to his church and he was not happy, not happy at all.
Speaker: But by the end of it, he told her, he said, look, you've changed my mind.
Speaker: You were able to reach people where most sermons couldn't by that piece.
Speaker: And I believe that's true.
Speaker: I believe people...
Speaker: they're more open to lessons when it comes in theater form than they are.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Jesus knew that.
Speaker: They're called parables.
Speaker: Well, and Lewis talks about that too.
Speaker: I don't remember if it's Narnia specifically he's talking about, or if maybe he's talking about his own experience coming to Christ, but he says...
Speaker: for him, stories seem like a way to steal past watchful dragons in people, like these dragons that are just on the lookout for these morals and these sermons.
Speaker: But in a story, when we relate to the characters or we find it fun or funny or something of it is true and resonates with us, then that kind of disarms us and can work on us in some sort of subtle, mysterious way.
Speaker: ways that i don't know that we always even register are are working on us in those ways but they do shape us without a doubt without a doubt i believe that's true i've seen it happen so much are there stories that like that you could point to for yourself that you feel like have really shaped you in that way
Speaker: I'm not sure I can give you just one.
Speaker: I know there's many times where in watching a story or watching a play or watching that I'll actually, whoa, that's true.
Speaker: I knew that's true, but to apply it in that way, I never put it that way.
Speaker: And all of a sudden it's like, okay, yeah, I can apply it that way in my life.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's interesting because it's kind of, I know I experienced this a lot, at least where a lot of times like I'll intellectually know something, especially about my faith.
Speaker: It's like I intellectually understand this about God or about his love or about his mercy or justice or mystery or whatever category, but it doesn't always travel down to the heart.
Speaker: And it's like, well, I keep acting in the same pattern or being insecure or this or that or the other thing.
Speaker: But yeah,
Speaker: And I don't, for me, at least I don't know that it always sticks in my heart, but at least for those moments, a lot of times it's like, and for a little bit after my heart can believe it because it's seen it lived out, even if it's in the context of a story, but it helps contextualize that on that heart level.
Speaker: Well, because a lot of times, and I mean, I was an assistant pastor for five years.
Speaker: So a lot of times sermons are full of, here are the... And I know this is not blanket, but it's the truth.
Speaker: A lot of sermons are, here are the rules.
Speaker: Here's what God says.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And sometimes there's not a lot of application.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Where theater is, here's the application.
Speaker: Guess what?
Speaker: You just learned a rule.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: There's a rule back there somewhere.
Speaker: We're not telling you what it is.
Speaker: It's all subtextual.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: That is really cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm having an abstract thought, but abstract thoughts don't pair well with podcasts because I need to keep talking.
Speaker: So that's interesting.
Speaker: Well, I feel like that's even great as an actor because it will surprise me a lot of times or as a director.
Speaker: I think a lot of times what's going on behind... Well, like, I'm going to talk about Hamlet again, which I feel like I've talked to death about on the podcast.
Speaker: But I think just by... When I was approaching that text, there's a lot of religious references in that text.
Speaker: Shakespeare is playing a lot with...
Speaker: things going on in the church at his time.
Speaker: And that is like near the Reformation.
Speaker: So that's all in the hearts and minds of everybody.
Speaker: Wittenberg is literally where Hamlet studies near the time of the Reformation.
Speaker: And none of that is...
Speaker: is said, and then Hamlet himself is dealing with a lot of questions about what's right or wrong, and specifically in the context of justice and eternity, and am I just and going to heaven, or am I evil, and is his uncle that he is trying to get revenge on, is he forgiven, or is he not forgiven, and he doesn't want him to be forgiven, so it's very complex, and just the more that I sort of delved into this, the more I...
Speaker: Just started to think about how much this is about God's grace and somebody else's perspective on Hamlet would be different This is my version of Hamlet that I played but I was just very sympathetic to him and by the end he has this beautiful speech that just surrenders to God's sovereignty and I think it's the core sort of pivotal speech for his character which I don't know that it quite redeems everything that he does because he does some not great things but
Speaker: I was just looking at the arc of that character and I was just like, holy crap, this is just a story of him learning to just surrender to God's sovereignty and mystery and trust that.
Speaker: And then I think receiving God's grace and finally not having to earn it and be the perfect man to get there.
Speaker: And especially because it's Shakespeare, it's so dense that all of that is very much subtextual.
Speaker: Like it's not coming out and saying this is what's happening.
Speaker: But it surprised me and is probably one of the most beautiful works of art I think I've gotten to do because of that.
Speaker: So on top of it being Hamlet, I also got to play this journey that surprised me of a man who was wrestling with
Speaker: Am I good enough?
Speaker: And then learning I don't have to be good enough because I'm not good enough.
Speaker: But God is good enough to still forgive me and give justice and to, I believe, give Hamlet grace.
Speaker: I know his last line is debated about what it means.
Speaker: But I just think it's crazy how we can just, we ourselves, even as the storytellers, are disarmed and then surprised by the art.
Speaker: And I think that's so cool.
Speaker: That's one of the things I like about acting in theater is you can actually step out of your own shell and step into somebody else's shell and see and feel their journey and be part of that journey that's written down on paper, but it's a whole story.
Speaker: It's a whole different person being in there.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And then that, at least I think for me, that shapes me as a person.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: There's subtle ways where I feel like when I'm playing a character, it affects me.
Speaker: Like if I can notice if I'm deep in rehearsals, I might be walking more like the character sometimes, which is funny.
Speaker: But just those deep journeys of those characters, because you rehearse those emotions every night, it affects you as if you've lived through that to a degree, which is crazy because you haven't lived through that, but also you kind of have.
Speaker: And yeah, that's just an insane...
Speaker: fascinating character growth thing.
Speaker: Especially if you do the show like we do.
Speaker: You do 12, 16 performances.
Speaker: By the end of it, you're wore out.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: Oh, it's so cool.
Speaker: So I'll jump to my next question here.
Speaker: You're obviously now the Artistic Director of Master Art, so you've got a lot on your plate.
Speaker: Artistically, what are the things you are working on right now?
Speaker: What are you creating?
Speaker: We just finished with a traveling troupe.
Speaker: We did eight performances of Christmas Simitie parts.
Speaker: And that is, we're looking at the next traveling troupe, which we're going to bring back seven last words of Christ.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: For anybody who doesn't know like the premises of those, would you mind sharing those?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: The thing about the Traveling Troop, this Traveling Troop is called the Emissary Group.
Speaker: Our goal is to put together a piece that could replace a sermon, which we did with Crystal's Many Parts.
Speaker: Crystal's Many Parts is a story of – the storyline is that four people show up at a church,
Speaker: And the other eight people are stuck in Atlanta.
Speaker: And so these four people tried to redo the Christmas story by pulling Usher out of the audience.
Speaker: And the five of them tried to take all the parts.
Speaker: And Jeanette Cliff George wrote that, and she's amazing at taking a scriptural story, giving you full of belly laughs, and never once looking bad at scripture.
Speaker: Scripture always shines as this is truth and this is important.
Speaker: And so that was a lot of fun to do.
Speaker: The seven last words of Christ are eight pieces.
Speaker: There are seven monologues in another piece.
Speaker: And they're based on seven people, and they tell their story based on one of the last words of Christ.
Speaker: There's Matthew.
Speaker: There's an adulteress that was caught.
Speaker: There's a rich young man.
Speaker: Some others, I forget when they were on my head.
Speaker: And those will be fun to redo because we did that.
Speaker: You and I did that just before COVID.
Speaker: We had it all set up where we could do it.
Speaker: We did like three performances, I think.
Speaker: And, yep.
Speaker: So I got, well, I'll get permission to do again.
Speaker: So I'm excited about it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So that's happening.
Speaker: I'm acting.
Speaker: I'm in Shadowlands.
Speaker: I play Joy's doctor.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: And so I have a fun role there.
Speaker: So I'm acting again, which I thoroughly love.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm directing again because I'm going to be directing In His Steps.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: And for those who don't know the story of In His Steps, it is the original novel that WWJD came from.
Speaker: The storyline is that a tramp comes to a church,
Speaker: And literally steps up to the pulpit and says, he says, you say that you're Christians, but you don't act it.
Speaker: And so four people in the church decide they're going to start their new life by starting everything with every decision with what would Jesus do.
Speaker: And the struggles, the persecution they get, not only from the outside, but even from the inside of the church for what they're doing.
Speaker: It's a very powerful script.
Speaker: I'm directing that.
Speaker: That goes up in April, May, somewhere in there.
Speaker: I just, well, I've been writing a piece called, we just call them the parables.
Speaker: And there's about 15 pieces in there that all deal with different parables.
Speaker: The play selection committee has already agreed to do it.
Speaker: And I've been working on it since.
Speaker: So the copy they have is different from the copy that's going to be done.
Speaker: But that's okay.
Speaker: We'll get there.
Speaker: You're always writing until the last moment, I feel like.
Speaker: Always.
Speaker: Let's see.
Speaker: I'm getting ready to do two You Summer Stocks again this summer.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: We did two last summer.
Speaker: So I'm directing, teaching, acting, writing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm...
Speaker: I did props for, I was one of the people who did props for White Christmas.
Speaker: I helped do lights for White Christmas.
Speaker: I helped me with costumes for Shadowlands.
Speaker: I'm doing quite a bit.
Speaker: Living a very artistic life.
Speaker: And loving every minute.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: How do you approach it differently when you're in a different role?
Speaker: If you're approaching, like, directing a traveling troupe versus...
Speaker: like working with the kids in summer stock are there different ways that you prepare for that ahead of time or how do you navigate those environments differently when you're working on those that's an interesting question or do you or do you just kind of handle it the same way well i there's
Speaker: There's different aspects of each of them.
Speaker: For instance, when you do a traveling troupe, you direct and you block and you train the actors to be versatile because you never know where you're going to get into.
Speaker: Right, yeah.
Speaker: You don't know if your space is going to be 10 feet wide or 20 feet wide or, you know, what thing you're saying.
Speaker: So you direct with that concept of, you know, and I tell them, I say, okay, everything is directed around this piece, a prop that you're going to put on stage.
Speaker: It's how far you are from that distance and how you're left and right in that distance.
Speaker: The kids, different.
Speaker: I love the kids.
Speaker: I love working with them.
Speaker: They're different than for them directing adults.
Speaker: And I'm going to be blunt here.
Speaker: Kids will listen to you.
Speaker: They want to learn.
Speaker: They're eager to try things new.
Speaker: They don't come up to you and say, no, I don't think so.
Speaker: My character should do this.
Speaker: Which actually have people who have told me that.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: That I've directed.
Speaker: And so I love working with the kids.
Speaker: I did it for 20 years straight and then went away for a couple years and I got to do it this summer.
Speaker: So I'm excited.
Speaker: So that's a different approach because it's...
Speaker: As much play time as it is work time, I have to admit that.
Speaker: Directing adults is different.
Speaker: It's a whole concept of when you're directing adults, you really have to be focused on the entire play at once.
Speaker: You've got to know every aspect of it at all times.
Speaker: And you'll get some great ideas, but that person hasn't read the rest of the play, so they'll understand it.
Speaker: So you've got to say no to people like that.
Speaker: So it is, yeah, everywhere you go.
Speaker: And acting, I love acting is different.
Speaker: Acting is different in a way where I don't have anything to worry about but my character.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That's it.
Speaker: And so it's a relief.
Speaker: And I love directing.
Speaker: I really do.
Speaker: But there's a lot to hold in your head when you're directing.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: We're acting.
Speaker: You just focus on your own little thing and that's it.
Speaker: And I love that.
Speaker: So, yeah, there's different approaches and different thoughts going into each aspect like that.
Speaker: That's fun.
Speaker: So it's been, when's the last time you were in a show?
Speaker: I was trying to think about this and I can't remember.
Speaker: I literally, I think it was Lying the Witch of a Mordrobe.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: So it's.
Speaker: That was a long time.
Speaker: Six years then since you've acted.
Speaker: That's a long time.
Speaker: How is it?
Speaker: Oh, you go.
Speaker: I was just going to say, when I moved away to Florida, I moved three times while I was there.
Speaker: I mean, I lived in three different places while I was in Florida.
Speaker: So there was never a time to establish myself anywhere.
Speaker: And I didn't have a car, so that made it harder.
Speaker: So for two years, there was just zip.
Speaker: I mean, it was absolutely nothing.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I did work on parables while I was there, but not a lot.
Speaker: There was just nothing to do.
Speaker: And writing scratches a different itch than acting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so when I came back, I was like, let me in.
Speaker: Let me do it.
Speaker: And so I've had a chance to be in smaller pieces.
Speaker: I was in the mosaic, so I had a couple small pieces.
Speaker: The Christmas traveling troupe that I just did, I had to step in for a role.
Speaker: Excuse me.
Speaker: So I actually took a role in there.
Speaker: So now I'm kind of excited to be in a full-length play.
Speaker: This is the first one since I think, literally I think Lion, then which world was my last.
Speaker: That's crazy.
Speaker: It's been a long time.
Speaker: How has it been, I guess, stretching those acting muscles again?
Speaker: Has it felt like riding a bike or has it felt like kind of have to, I don't know, readjust or kind of work to get some stuff back?
Speaker: Seriously?
Speaker: And I know this is weird, but...
Speaker: It's like the years between didn't happen.
Speaker: I really feel like in all of my theater experience, even coming back to Master Arts Theater, it's like I know those years happen, and I know they're in my head, but they don't feel it.
Speaker: Getting involved in theater, doing the lights, doing all the things, it's just like I've been doing it ever since.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I fit back into that shoe so quickly and so easily that it was like, I know those years exist.
Speaker: I remember them.
Speaker: I remember Haiti not being in theater.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: But it was like stepping in, you know, stepping into a warm, comfortable pair of pajamas and keep going.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: And it really feels great.
Speaker: That is exciting.
Speaker: Has your role in Shadowlands been fun?
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: Yeah, I actually have two roles.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I'm one of C.S.
Speaker: Lewis's friends when they have – they eat together and drink together a lot.
Speaker: And I made that sound bad with saying to drink together a lot.
Speaker: That's what I meant.
Speaker: I mean, they went to pubs.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's a small role that I start with and end with.
Speaker: But the main role is actually the doctor in between with all the stuff they do.
Speaker: So it's been fun.
Speaker: I'm horrible at accents.
Speaker: That's been the hard part.
Speaker: They say I'm doing pretty good, but it's still, it's a struggle, struggle for me.
Speaker: But I'm enjoying it.
Speaker: I'm loving it.
Speaker: It's been interesting trying to memorize it because in the middle of that, I had to memorize the piece from the Christmas thing, which is a totally comedic character compared to this very non-comedic character.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I'm still struggling with it.
Speaker: But I'm getting there.
Speaker: And the British do not talk like Americans at all.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: It's very different.
Speaker: Because just even phrasing things, you know, like I would never say it in that order.
Speaker: Ever say it in that order unless I'm on stage being somebody else, being the doctor.
Speaker: So it's been a struggle.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: A good struggle has been fun.
Speaker: It's one of those struggles you're like, okay, I'm ready to stretch this one.
Speaker: So that's been a lot of fun.
Speaker: How often is the doctor on?
Speaker: Because Joey's not sick for all of it.
Speaker: How many scenes are there?
Speaker: I have three scenes with her.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: With her and him.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Mostly with him.
Speaker: Yeah, mostly with him.
Speaker: I have more scenes with him than I do with her.
Speaker: Oh, and I guess I should give a summary, too, for anybody who doesn't know.
Speaker: Shadowlands, if you don't know, I just kind of assumed people would know, is the story of Louis and his wife, Joy, who were only married a short time before she fell ill and then passed away.
Speaker: And so it's kind of their love story, but then also the story of his grief and wrestling with that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But playing the doctor in that situation has got to be an interesting, meaty role.
Speaker: Well, it's interesting because in the part, the doctor himself never says the word death or dying, even though that's obviously what's happening.
Speaker: And Lewis even says at one point, he says,
Speaker: Doctor, use words that I understand, like dying, getting better, getting healthy.
Speaker: And my line back to him is, those words don't meet the case.
Speaker: So it's been interesting because the doctor...
Speaker: avoiding those harsh words, playing that, feeling coming from that perspective.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, because I'm the kind of person who want to hear, I want to hear death.
Speaker: I want to hear dates.
Speaker: I want to hear this.
Speaker: I want to hear those words.
Speaker: Cause that's what I understand.
Speaker: And that's what CS Lewis keeps telling my character.
Speaker: but playing it from his, I don't know if he's trying to, I think he's trying to be compassionate in what he says.
Speaker: So it's been interesting trying to play that compassionate being asked not to.
Speaker: So it's been a, it's been actually, it's been a fun role to play because it's not just a doctor saying, okay, here's the numbers, here's the stats, I'm going to walk out.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's been somebody who has... He has a real depth of a character.
Speaker: He's a real character.
Speaker: He's more than just one-dimensional.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And he's been fun.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker: That's a fun dynamic.
Speaker: That's neat.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: Not long after you came here, you were asked to step into the artistic director position at Master Arts.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: That was a surprise.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Coming back to Master Arts thinking I'm going to get my old job back, which I did.
Speaker: For a little bit.
Speaker: For a little bit.
Speaker: Literally, you're talking from January 8th to January 27th.
Speaker: 19 beautiful days.
Speaker: 19 beautiful days.
Speaker: And, I mean, they gave me a call on a Saturday.
Speaker: I was literally at Wally's Treasures looking through an antique store.
Speaker: And I get this phone call.
Speaker: And they're like, where are you?
Speaker: I told them we're at.
Speaker: And they're like, you have to be at this meeting now.
Speaker: I'm like,
Speaker: excuse me, we're going to come pick you up.
Speaker: That's how I found out things were going, that Tim was going to resign and how that was going to happen.
Speaker: So major changes.
Speaker: And then they asked me to be, they said, we want you to be the intern for now.
Speaker: And I said, as a totally honest, I do not want this job, but it's obvious how God has set this up.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, that I came in the time I did and that it was me and just it's obvious that God set this up.
Speaker: So I'll do whatever has to get done.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The best thing that happened was literally every single person on the board stepped up and helped.
Speaker: That's amazing.
Speaker: You know, seriously, every single one of them were doing something and that started to help with something.
Speaker: So that made that transition a little easier.
Speaker: And then once, because Luke was on the board and once they asked Luke to be the executive and they voted on that, that separated the job.
Speaker: Luke is now the executive and I'm the artistic director.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that made things easier because I am the artistic person.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I have zero business sense at all.
Speaker: I mean, just none.
Speaker: And Luke is perfect for that because he has no artistic sense at all.
Speaker: He'll admit it.
Speaker: You know, he'll totally admit it.
Speaker: He doesn't.
Speaker: But he is a business person.
Speaker: And so he and I worked well together.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What's it...
Speaker: What's it been like, I guess, leading in this time of transition for the theater?
Speaker: Obviously, we've talked about how much God is blessing and leading as well.
Speaker: But what's it been like for you being in that position during this transition time for Master Arts?
Speaker: I have seen God bless and do some amazing things this year.
Speaker: If I was to write down 10 stories of my life at Master Arts, five of them at least would be this year.
Speaker: Because God has changed and done so many things to the Master Arts this year.
Speaker: It's just...
Speaker: It's shocking and it shouldn't be.
Speaker: So it's been wonderful.
Speaker: It's been, and I tell people that I look at things and decision-making and I shake my head and go, but this has never been done this way before.
Speaker: Then I grab some of his coattails and just ride through the door with them because so much has changed and so much has been fixed and taken care of.
Speaker: I mean, just all the things that have happened this year, the donations have just been out of this world helping.
Speaker: And I think, I think we're seeing finally, master artists finally seen after COVID effects.
Speaker: For instance, I,
Speaker: The touring team.
Speaker: We did not know if it would even be feasible.
Speaker: People would want touring teams back to their churches.
Speaker: Well, and we'd even tried a little bit.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it hadn't really picked up.
Speaker: Uh-uh.
Speaker: But we had eight, and the team said, that's it.
Speaker: We can't do more than eight.
Speaker: I had to turn away people.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: For Christmas, which is... Well, not good.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: But it's cool that there's that much demand.
Speaker: So it surprised us.
Speaker: This summer, when the Youth Summer Stock was happening...
Speaker: Luke comes to me and says, we need to put a cap.
Speaker: And I was like, you know, we never get more than 30.
Speaker: We can do 30.
Speaker: He's like, let's at least put a cap on 30.
Speaker: I'm like, okay.
Speaker: So then we put a cap on 30, and we get a bunch of people that said, I was in it the last two years.
Speaker: How can I not be in it this year?
Speaker: So we opened another.
Speaker: So we ended up with 20 in the second one.
Speaker: So we ended up with 50 kids this summer.
Speaker: Gosh.
Speaker: And so I think we're really seeing it and what audiences we're seeing it.
Speaker: We literally have heard multiple stories of people said, this is the first show I've seen since COVID.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so I think Mass Arts has finally seen the release of the COVID curse, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that they're finally coming back.
Speaker: And not just patrons, but even actors.
Speaker: Cheaper by the Dozen, we've got three adult actors who haven't been in our theaters for literally 10, 15 years in acting.
Speaker: And they're back.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: And I know there are others.
Speaker: Because one of my old friends...
Speaker: came and um auditioned he didn't get a part but he auditioned and he hasn't been involved in master arts for almost 20 years wow and so we're seeing we're seeing a resurgence of of wanting people wanting to see shows and that and we're blessed at that we've we've hit that wave this year that's awesome you know so that's been exciting
Speaker: What lessons do you feel like you've been learning or just what have you kind of been learning and discovering in this new role and in this new season for yourself and at the theater?
Speaker: It's a lesson that I've taught.
Speaker: You know how you teach a lesson all your life and all of a sudden God has to teach it to you?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: You know, and stop putting God in a box.
Speaker: Stop saying God can't do this.
Speaker: Just the finances that my brain said, it's never been done.
Speaker: There's no way we're going to do it.
Speaker: And we've done it.
Speaker: You know, and just multiple things like that.
Speaker: How God has just blessed every day.
Speaker: And the thing about all these blessings is...
Speaker: God has been wonderful at doing it in such a way as we have to just look at amazement and say, there's no other way but God who could have done these things.
Speaker: Period.
Speaker: He's given us a blessing in such a way we can't give credit to anybody but him.
Speaker: And that's been exciting.
Speaker: And that's been a good lesson for me to stop putting God in a box and stop saying, it can't happen because it never happened before.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And like I said, I've taught it, but I've had to learn it this year.
Speaker: Big time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's so cool.
Speaker: I definitely, I think something cool about seeing God act in that way too.
Speaker: For me, when I see that, I think it reminds me that these things are really his.
Speaker: I've had that with Artists of the Way and with Godspell as well, where as I was leading up to Godspell, I was like, okay, if this happens at all, it's because God provided for this to happen.
Speaker: Because there's no way that I as a 20-something can raise the...
Speaker: large amounts of money that Godspell ended up costing relative to like me and what I earned income.
Speaker: And I think relative to community theater show production, like it was expensive.
Speaker: I was like, if this goes forward at all, it's God.
Speaker: And then seeing him come through
Speaker: you don't feel an ounce, maybe an ounce, but that's the ego talking.
Speaker: But outside of that ounce of your ego that you have to shut off, you look at that and you're like, okay, I didn't get us here.
Speaker: God got us here.
Speaker: This is God's thing.
Speaker: And whatever he's doing with that next is God's thing.
Speaker: And I'm so blessed to be in the position God's put me in with it and to be a steward of it in some ways and his servant in that way.
Speaker: But,
Speaker: It's always ultimately his.
Speaker: And so I just, even beyond seeing him do amazing, incredible things that are wild and successful and cool, then just the reminder of he is God and we are humans.
Speaker: And everything we accomplish, we actually don't accomplish, we receive from God, which is crazy.
Speaker: It's a good way of saying it.
Speaker: It's true.
Speaker: And we're still active participants, but we still...
Speaker: just receive it.
Speaker: And I just think, and I've seen that a lot at Master Arts this year in the places I've been involved with Godspell, with my own personal life.
Speaker: Just the way God provides and the reminder that he's really the one that sustains it and provides everything.
Speaker: And I love that.
Speaker: I love the fact that it's God doing it.
Speaker: You know, I really...
Speaker: Am I in the right space where I'm supposed to be?
Speaker: Oh, yes.
Speaker: You know, and I have it so good.
Speaker: And I have it so good only because God is their blessing constantly.
Speaker: You know, he's constantly blessing.
Speaker: And not just theater life.
Speaker: I mean, in my own personal life, he's been blessing like crazy.
Speaker: And that's been, it's the best place to be.
Speaker: You know, it really is.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: So I wanted to ask as well, you are one of the people with the most seniority in the Christian theater community here in Grand Rapids.
Speaker: I feel like of the people heavily involved right now, there's probably only a couple others I can point to.
Speaker: Maybe Brad Garnott is one who has a similar amount of like...
Speaker: experience and consistency of having been in it for so long over the years.
Speaker: What do you think is important about having Christian theater and a Christian community theater?
Speaker: Um...
Speaker: The thing about Christian theater is I think we work both directions.
Speaker: We let Christians know that there's a safe place to come and practice your arts.
Speaker: And we let non-Christians know that they are safe to come into a position here.
Speaker: So we're kind of a...
Speaker: a meeting place between the two without giving up God at all.
Speaker: Because I know there's a lot of places that pretend to be Christian and draw you in and they're really not.
Speaker: And I know it's vice versa.
Speaker: I know it goes both directions.
Speaker: Where as Christian theater, we give...
Speaker: We give people, I don't know how to say this word.
Speaker: I don't know what word to use.
Speaker: But we give people a focus, a place to look at and say, okay, this feels like some place I can go.
Speaker: And I can feel wanted.
Speaker: I can feel...
Speaker: Needed.
Speaker: Because that's something we've learned this year, too, is people need to feel needed.
Speaker: They need a place where they can come and not be criticized because...
Speaker: Their character is too loud or whatever.
Speaker: They feel like they want to work here.
Speaker: They want to be part of the MassDarce Theater because we treat them like they're people.
Speaker: There's no bullies here.
Speaker: We make sure that.
Speaker: There has been, yeah, there has been, but God is blessing, and we make sure that gets taken care of right away.
Speaker: We are a place where people can...
Speaker: where we can reach out to the non-Christian world and say, hey, just, you know, we're not going to proselytize you, but come and find out how Christians really act, not how somebody tells you they're acting.
Speaker: You know, the media has this image of Christians, and most of those are serial killers.
Speaker: You know, I mean, I'm sorry, but that's what happens in movies.
Speaker: And we're not.
Speaker: Come find out.
Speaker: We're not, you know.
Speaker: And then also Christians that are afraid to get out there to actually find out, to actually practice their talents.
Speaker: Here's a safe place for you to come and practice your talent.
Speaker: Here's a place where there's other people who are talented like you, and we'll talk.
Speaker: talk like you and talk about plays and talk about acting and talk about that kind of stuff.
Speaker: So we have both as a Christian theater.
Speaker: We have both.
Speaker: We have giving Christians a place to practice and have fun and giving non-Christians a place where they can come and have fun as well.
Speaker: You know, and find out that some of us aren't as bad as what you saw are, you know, that kind of stuff.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: I feel like that is just a microcosm of the church in some ways.
Speaker: Like when it's functioning as well as it should be, but in this sort of niche artistic focus.
Speaker: Like...
Speaker: And I think that that's true for most Christian arts groups, but that we are the church and we are living as the church in this artistic way.
Speaker: But we're also trying to serve the world and be available to the world and create a place where people from the world can come and be safe and be loved and be accepted as people.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But then we're still able to still operate in a very distinctly Christian way.
Speaker: And those two don't have to go against each other.
Speaker: And I think theater especially is uniquely equipped to be sort of that middle ground between the church, I guess, like institution and the world.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: In a ways that like if the church were trying to do this outreach, it wouldn't.
Speaker: Like we had conversations with,
Speaker: When we were doing Godspell, because at one point it looked like we might lose our performance venue.
Speaker: And so we were talking about, well, where else could we do it?
Speaker: And we talked about maybe trying to see if we could do it in the church we were renting for rehearsal spaces.
Speaker: And my assistant director was like, I really think if we do that, we're going to lose some of what we're trying to, some of the opportunity we have for ministry.
Speaker: Because
Speaker: As soon as we're connected to a church or doing it in a church, a lot of the people we want to come see this show are not going to come see this show.
Speaker: It's true.
Speaker: But by it being sort of its own standalone artistic thing, even as it's Christian, I think...
Speaker: there is some more level of comfortability or approachability there, which is interesting.
Speaker: But then it can still be just as distinctly the church, the people of God doing what the people of God do.
Speaker: And I think that's just such a cool, unique opportunity for ministry for everybody involved.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: It's a great place to be.
Speaker: For me, it's the best place to be.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: Well, we're getting near our time here.
Speaker: One of the questions I forgot to send you, but I always ask at the end, so I don't know why I forgot to send it to you.
Speaker: But I always ask, what are some resources you'd recommend for people who want to either grow as artists or grow as Christians?
Speaker: Because I've really relied on some self-study and things that I've sort of gleaned by being in shows and from people, but I don't have any resources.
Speaker: super formal artistic training.
Speaker: So I try and create a catalog of those resources for people.
Speaker: So what are things for you as a writer or director or actor or as a Christian that you're like, these are core things, core influential things?
Speaker: Well, when I research any kind of thing that I'm going to teach here, I go to the internet because it's so full of stuff.
Speaker: So I don't have any, like, one specific person to look to.
Speaker: There are a few people that you hear names over and over, Udhagen, Stanislavski.
Speaker: Yeah, I can't say that word.
Speaker: Stanislavski.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: People like that who have some great...
Speaker: insight to acting in the theater.
Speaker: Somebody to say like how to run a Christian theater, I don't think there's a good book out there yet.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because I don't, I mean, I've been involved, I've been involved since 1994.
Speaker: So I've been involved a while.
Speaker: 30 years now.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: It's been 30 years.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm going to make you feel old live on radio.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: It has been 30 years, hasn't it?
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: That just broke my brain.
Speaker: I didn't think of it like that.
Speaker: But I don't think I could even write a book right now.
Speaker: Because there's so much to it, and it's so much of a God thing that it's hard to put.
Speaker: There's no path.
Speaker: You just follow God.
Speaker: And he's clearing a path through all of this.
Speaker: Well, I think that's true even just for a theater in general.
Speaker: I feel like any theater and how it's run, unlike...
Speaker: probably regional or below level.
Speaker: It's just like, well, this is the way we did it.
Speaker: And that somehow worked for us.
Speaker: And as Christians, that's the way God provided and made it work for us.
Speaker: But it's just, and it's the landscape's constantly changing too.
Speaker: Yeah, it is.
Speaker: It's great.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Re-ask your question.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So as far as for people who want to grow as artists or people who want to deepen their Christian faith, are there resources you'd recommend?
Speaker: For me, that's two separate issues, but not kept separate.
Speaker: I wouldn't go to the theater to...
Speaker: Enhance my faith to learn more about God specifically.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That you need to find a good church.
Speaker: And good churches are hard and few.
Speaker: Between.
Speaker: You need to find a good church.
Speaker: Theater, to grow in theater, you need to just get involved.
Speaker: Because you can read all the books you want.
Speaker: You can say all the words you want.
Speaker: But until you actually step on that stage in front of an audience, you won't learn it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Well, then everything that you are going to read in a book, you have to apply to actually figure out how it works.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: There's an application.
Speaker: And until you get the application, we used to say that, like, I worked at summer camps for like four summers when I was going to college.
Speaker: And I used to tell people that I spent nine months learning knowledge and three months at camp learning wisdom.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: And that's what it is.
Speaker: You can learn the knowledge from both sides, but you have to come together and be on stage for the wisdom.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Now, keep those two separate things, learn you from two different directions, and bring them together.
Speaker: That's where Master Arts is open for you.
Speaker: Because you can come here and you can pray with us.
Speaker: And you can come here and you can be on stage and be C.S.
Speaker: Lewis's Joy Davison.
Speaker: I can't remember how to pronounce his name.
Speaker: Davison's?
Speaker: Yeah, I can't remember.
Speaker: I don't think that's right.
Speaker: It's like Dave said.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Anyway, you could be her doctor.
Speaker: So there's two separate things we have to learn, but then come back to Master Arts and be through the wisdom of those two separate things that you've learned.
Speaker: Let's see it in application.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And they're not separate.
Speaker: I say the word, but that ain't what I mean.
Speaker: They're two important things, but this is where you get to come and bring them together.
Speaker: Especially as an artist, a lot of times I think learning about both would be separate.
Speaker: But if you are a Christian, that should be the core thing about you.
Speaker: And if you are an artist in any capacity...
Speaker: God has built you that way, which I think everybody has certain capacities of that, but then God has built you that way.
Speaker: So for you to be a Christian is also to be an artist.
Speaker: Like it's just unavoidable.
Speaker: I've always, I've probably talked to you about this before, but in navigating my calling and where I'm going vocationally, I've always felt like, oh, well, I'm called to ministry.
Speaker: But every time I focus too much on the ministry thing, God's always like, hang on, John, remember I made you to be an artist.
Speaker: You need to create things.
Speaker: And then anytime I over-focus on that, God's like, well, hang on, John, I'm calling you into ministry.
Speaker: And I'm like, wah!
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What do you want me to do?
Speaker: You're pulling me between two.
Speaker: And he's like, yep, they're both important.
Speaker: They're both important.
Speaker: You have to find something in the middle and he'll help.
Speaker: And not very many people understand that.
Speaker: They don't.
Speaker: The church that I'm involved in, they have three pastors and there's a long thing about that.
Speaker: So I actually took each pastor individually out to dinner and let them know who I was because they didn't know who I was.
Speaker: Right, because you've been out of town.
Speaker: Right, I've been out of town for a while.
Speaker: and and then explain my connection to master arts theater and they they need to understand that um i i love the church and i'll i'll do everything i can with them but master arts is my ministry right start is my home master arts is where i worship master arts is where i have my friends master arts is my job yeah it's my job too that's right
Speaker: And that's me.
Speaker: I have an advantage.
Speaker: I'm not married.
Speaker: I have kids.
Speaker: So I don't have a wife that I have to take care of.
Speaker: Kids that have to be taken care of.
Speaker: So I work here 40 to 60 to whenever things get done.
Speaker: But I don't complain.
Speaker: I love it.
Speaker: This is my play as well as my work.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I understand that.
Speaker: For me, people don't understand that sometimes.
Speaker: My father is always like, you could do much better working someplace else.
Speaker: I'm like...
Speaker: No, I can't.
Speaker: But I don't want to.
Speaker: I can probably make more money, but I couldn't do better.
Speaker: You know, because this is where I... This is every ounce of me.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker: Okay, well, there's other things I would love to say, but I'll cut our time here and we'll keep talking after the next hour.
Speaker: But thank you.
Speaker: Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker: It was great to finally have you on the podcast.
Speaker: Thank you for asking.
Speaker: Get to chat with you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's been fun.
