Transcript
Speaker: Hey, friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John, the host.
Speaker: And on this episode, we have a special guest that I'm super excited about.
Speaker: We are bringing on Spencer Milford, who is the lead actor in the Lord of the Rings musical playing Frodo Baggins.
Speaker: They just recently closed in Chicago.
Speaker: They're going to be doing a tour in New Zealand in October.
Speaker: Uh,
Speaker: I was told about the show through a friend of mine.
Speaker: I'd known about the musical in the past and never thought I'd get a chance to see it.
Speaker: And then they revived it in England and brought it to the States in Chicago.
Speaker: So I was super excited to see it.
Speaker: My wife and I hit it up on our vacation.
Speaker: It was a real blast.
Speaker: I managed to get ahold of Spencer and he was incredibly gracious and willing to come onto the podcast and chat a little bit.
Speaker: And I'm so grateful to him for that.
Speaker: We're going to chat about a bunch of things, talk about some of his experience as an actor and as a producer, the projects that he's proud of and enjoys doing, and then what his experience has been like in Lord of the Rings, what it's been like playing this remarkable role that means so much to people, how that role has impacted him, and also how his faith has impacted his approach to the show, how we can see that Christian faith that was, of course, in Tolkien's writing, his worldview,
Speaker: how that comes through in the story and in their adaptation.
Speaker: Had a really wonderful time chatting with Spencer.
Speaker: It was a wonderful discussion and I'm excited to share with you guys.
Speaker: Thanks for joining us.
Speaker: So how are you doing today?
Speaker: I'm doing well.
Speaker: I'm doing really well.
Speaker: Back at home in St.
Speaker: Louis and just enjoying some downtime before heading off to New Zealand.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: So you closed last weekend, correct?
Speaker: Was when you guys closed?
Speaker: Yeah, last Sunday.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: How long before you guys end up heading out to tour New Zealand?
Speaker: We have a little bit.
Speaker: I think my flight leaves Chicago on October 26th.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So I've got a little bit of downtime.
Speaker: It's a little bit too much downtime, but it's good.
Speaker: I love being at home, so it's been nice to get a break for sure.
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Have you been to New Zealand before?
Speaker: Cause that just sounds like the dream.
Speaker: No, I've, I've never been South of the equator.
Speaker: So it's going to be, yeah, it's going to be amazing.
Speaker: And I mean, just from watching the Lord of the Rings movies, I already know that it's a beautiful country.
Speaker: So, um, yeah.
Speaker: And I've, I've just heard great things about the food, the people, just the culture.
Speaker: I'm, I'm pumped.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Is your whole cast able to go down, or did you guys have to shuffle anything, or did you all kind of sign on with the idea of we're all committing to both this and a tour in New Zealand?
Speaker: We signed our contracts in Chicago just for Chicago.
Speaker: We didn't know.
Speaker: There were like rumblings when we were auditioning that they were planning on taking it to New Zealand, but there was nothing...
Speaker: nothing like firm.
Speaker: Um, but then we actually, we finished our first read through and sing through of the show after about a week of rehearsals.
Speaker: Cause we spent that first week.
Speaker: Um, there's so much music.
Speaker: So we spent the first week, like really focusing on the music and doing a little bit of scene work, um, as well.
Speaker: But we had our first like full read through, sing through with the cast a weekend.
Speaker: And after, um,
Speaker: the read through our director uh paul hart who's amazing and super um he's a very stoic man but he this was the first time we saw his like vulnerable side and he was kind of in tears saying how great the read through went and how he wants to take us all uh he wants us all to go to new zealand with the show next and that um he said we we want to take all of you so it was really cool to
Speaker: you know, finish our first read through together and everyone's a mess emotionally from the end of the show.
Speaker: And then, yeah, to get that good news was really, it was really sweet and special.
Speaker: So we've been, we've been looking forward to this since gosh, that rehearsal was in June.
Speaker: So, yeah, we've kind of been keeping it under wraps for a little bit, but yeah, that's going to be so cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Sweet.
Speaker: Well, I will jump into, I have a couple of questions I ask everybody.
Speaker: Um, so first I want to know how is God using art in your life right now?
Speaker: Either stuff you're making or stuff that you're, uh, engaging with as an audience member or, you know, listener or reader and so on.
Speaker: Um, I mean, is God using, uh, art in my life in a pretty big way with this, with this show?
Speaker: Number one, just, um,
Speaker: I mean, the fact that Tolkien was such a devout Christian and hearing stories of him sharing his faith with C.S.
Speaker: Lewis and all the great work that came through that friendship.
Speaker: It's just been really special with this show in particular because after the show is over, it takes so much time
Speaker: emotional, mental, physical stamina just to get through it.
Speaker: Uh, and at the end of the night, I'm just kind of, you know, my voice is shot.
Speaker: My body's tired.
Speaker: I'm just kind of like, I want to, yeah, not really talk to anyone, but then coming out, no, and being, being real and then coming out into the audience or coming out into the lobby and meeting with audience members who are just like so deeply moved by it.
Speaker: Um, it's,
Speaker: it's taught me to remember that like God gave me these gifts and so I'm just remembered to be constantly grateful for every opportunity to perform and just the impact that it's had on people's lives.
Speaker: I talked to this woman who she is a huge Lord of the Rings fan and she has a daughter who's five and she was telling me how she lost her son when he was only three years old and so she uses
Speaker: Lord of the Rings, whenever she's feeling discouraged or remembers how sad she is about her son not being with her anymore, and she reads little passages of either The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings to her daughter, and it really lifts her spirit.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, you just don't think about those things when you're performing, how what you're doing can impact other people.
Speaker: And so God has just really blessed me with this role.
Speaker: I didn't think at the beginning of this year, I didn't know that Lord of the, the Lord of the Rings musical was a thing.
Speaker: I didn't know about it at all.
Speaker: I had no, uh, intentions of auditioning for it until I heard about it in March.
Speaker: And, um, you know, it's such a hard business in general.
Speaker: And so I just constantly pray for opportunities and pray that like the right things will come your way.
Speaker: And, and when it comes to fruition, it's, I, I don't take it lightly.
Speaker: So, um,
Speaker: Yeah, I'm grateful for this role and grateful that God has blessed me with such a great company of people to work with and an amazing fan base to reach out to and connect with.
Speaker: Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker: You do have a really remarkable cast.
Speaker: It was some just breathtaking performances.
Speaker: Yeah, thanks.
Speaker: Is that like...
Speaker: When you're like going out there, is it kind of an every night thing where you're like, you have to like remind yourself, this is going to be a good thing to engage with these audience members.
Speaker: Or are there times where it's like, this is a little more rejuvenating or, um, or, or is it always that like, no, I should do this.
Speaker: This will be good.
Speaker: And then you go out there and it is.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think, uh, the only times where it feels like it, it feels like a work is on,
Speaker: after the first show on a two-show day because there's only like a certain amount of downtime I have before I have to like warm up again for the next one.
Speaker: So I'm like, oh, I got to get out there and like and get some food and like and drink some tea and then I got to stretch again and I only have a certain amount of time to do that and then depending on how many people like want to talk or take pictures or have me sign something.
Speaker: Yeah, that can be, I guess, yeah, just, I don't know, time consuming and energy consuming.
Speaker: But I mean, yeah, it doesn't, I don't take it lightly that like,
Speaker: There's so many people who would kill to play this part.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I'm never like, I'm never like, ah, these fans, like all this stupid stuff.
Speaker: But yeah, I mean, it's never, I think just on two show days is when I'm like, I wish this could go quicker, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Just do like 0.5 speed on everybody's talking.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But like after it, it is such a feat to get through it every night that like after the show and after I'm done, it's yeah, it is, it's kind of like a relief to go out and get to, you know, take pictures of people and, and yeah.
Speaker: And talk with people is awesome.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: Outside of Lord of the Rings, is there anything that you're working on right now that you can talk about or would want to share?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So I run a small production company with a couple friends of mine here in St.
Speaker: Louis.
Speaker: We're called River Rat Productions.
Speaker: And we've made a few short films and a couple music videos.
Speaker: And we had a play that we premiered at the St.
Speaker: Louis Fringe Festival that we're still working on actually turning it into a feature film, which is exciting.
Speaker: But right now we're about to shoot...
Speaker: um a couple of sizzle reels for a web series that a friend of mine sam rosier wrote called squires and it's about the squires of the knights of the round table so uh like lancelot king arthur galahad and the gang they all get taken by this dark
Speaker: force and they, they vanish from Camelot and, um, their squires are the ones that have to, that have to go and save them.
Speaker: And they're, they're, they're young and ill-equipped and, uh, kind of buffoons.
Speaker: So it's, uh, it's a bit of a coming of age, uh, an adventure story.
Speaker: So, um, I'm staying, staying in the fantasy realm, which is, which is fun.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: That sounds fun.
Speaker: I'll have to keep an eye out for that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Sweet.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: Let's wind it back.
Speaker: I'd love to know, how did you first get into theater and acting?
Speaker: What was it that first made you interested in it?
Speaker: And what was your first way, the first way you kind of broke in?
Speaker: Yeah, through God, actually, through church.
Speaker: So my family went to the first Church of God up in North County in St.
Speaker: Louis when I was growing up.
Speaker: And yeah, my parents were super active in the church.
Speaker: My mom's a kindergarten teacher, so she also...
Speaker: My parents ran the Sunday school for little kids back in the day.
Speaker: I spent a lot of time at church growing up.
Speaker: My brothers are four and six years older than me, so we would have to go to their rehearsals for the Christmas musical that they were putting on.
Speaker: And I was too young to be in it at the time.
Speaker: And I, but I was watching the rehearsals and I learned all the songs and learned all the little dance steps and like learned everybody's lines.
Speaker: I think it was like three or four years old.
Speaker: And, uh, our, the music director at church was like, I think it was like three or four.
Speaker: And she saw that I knew everything already just from watching it and having to be there every night.
Speaker: So, um, she invited me to be in the, in the Christmas musical and, um,
Speaker: Yeah, the rest was kind of history.
Speaker: The year after that, they did the same story of Jesus' birth.
Speaker: My brothers and I were the three wise men.
Speaker: When it came time for the performance, my brothers decided that they didn't want to say any other lines.
Speaker: They were just like, well, you're going to be all three of them then, and we're just going to stand there.
Speaker: And I was like, okay.
Speaker: Yeah, so I was frankincense, gold, and myrrh.
Speaker: That was my starring turn, and I think that's when I realized that I liked the attention.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's kind of how I got my start.
Speaker: And then there was a community theater in my town that did –
Speaker: uh musical or like youth productions of musicals so i did a production of my first uh musical outside of church was little shop of horrors when i was five or six yeah that was the big vibe yeah it was very wild uh i was the first customer who sees the plant in the window so that was uh yeah i'll i'll um
Speaker: grateful for that shrewsbury community theater for anyone who's uh knows st louis it's uh a lot of i i perform with a lot of people there who i still am in touch with now so it's yeah it's a big um big part of my career growing up and then yeah i just kept doing community theater and then eventually auditioned for the muni which is this massive 11 000 seat outdoor theater here in st louis it's the biggest and oldest um
Speaker: theater in North America.
Speaker: And, uh, I, I spent my childhood and my teenage years performing there.
Speaker: And that's where I kind of fell in love with it and realized that it was kind of what I wanted to do as a, as a profession.
Speaker: Um, yeah.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: What are the things that continue to inspire you as an artist?
Speaker: Like, are there major, like, I don't know if there's like themes or things you're passionate about, or is it kind of a new thing in, in different seasons?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, the things that really inspire me are, I guess, things that, well, there's two different sides.
Speaker: So, like, I like to produce stuff, too.
Speaker: So, I like, yeah, stories about hope and stories about just human connection and friendship, but things that, like, push the boundaries of that.
Speaker: Uh, so things that, that challenge us as a society and things that kind of hold up a mirror to society and show our flaws, but also like the beauty that humanity can bring.
Speaker: So, um, yeah, I guess that's, that's kind of, uh, a vague answer, but I'm, I just, any, anything that there, there's no like one genre or one thing that I'm interested in.
Speaker: So it's really, it comes down to like,
Speaker: the script and the storytelling and the writing.
Speaker: I just, I like to be a part of things that push me in different directions.
Speaker: I'm always playing English roles and like British roles.
Speaker: So I used a lot of, I do a lot of accents.
Speaker: So I do, I like things that use accent work.
Speaker: So that stuff excites me.
Speaker: But yeah, I mean, there's a variety of things that,
Speaker: that inspire me.
Speaker: I also like working with new writers.
Speaker: So anyone who's like just starting out like playwriting or writing musicals, I like developing stuff from the ground floor with people, which is what me and my group of friends here do that we really like to develop things from the ground up and work with artists and really collaborate.
Speaker: And yeah, it's great.
Speaker: I love working on all kinds of things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Do you have a project, I don't know, recently or one that just like sticks out where it was like, that was like a really exciting boundary pushing one that like confirmed that, like, uh, I don't know that passion for trying to like stretch the, what's the word I'm trying to think of the audience in.
Speaker: And like engage them in unique ways or like a ground up one where it was like, oh, this was, this was so exciting and cool to see come to fruition that it kind of lit that and ignited that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: There's, um,
Speaker: There's this play I did actually, the world premiere of this play called Buzz by Susan Ferrara.
Speaker: She's an amazing playwright out of New York.
Speaker: And she, well, she's a multi-hyphenate.
Speaker: She acts, directs, writes, produces all sorts of stuff.
Speaker: And she wrote this play called Buzz about the first woman to direct at the Royal Shakespeare Company.
Speaker: And this woman named Marianne.
Speaker: good buddy, but they called her Buzz because I guess she probably, nowadays she probably would have been like diagnosed with ADHD because apparently her mind wouldn't stop and she buzzed around like a bee and so they called her Buzz.
Speaker: She, for the time, I think this was like 1970 or 1971 at Stratford at the Royal Shakespeare Company and
Speaker: She was the only female director, and they wouldn't let her direct shows on the main stage.
Speaker: And so she said, well, if you're not going to let me direct on the main stage, I'm going to use whatever space I can.
Speaker: So she turned their scene shop and their costume shop into a performance space.
Speaker: And this was before people were really doing a lot of avant-garde theater, especially in England.
Speaker: At the Royal Shakespeare Company, it was very rigid, old-school Shakespeare.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So she was kind of trying to push the boundaries there and she had the audience sitting on sofas and she was using like sheets from people's bedspreads as curtains.
Speaker: And she did a production of Hamlet with Ben Kingsley as Hamlet.
Speaker: And again, this was Ben Kingsley was one of the only like people of color in the Royal Shakespeare Company at the time.
Speaker: And he was playing Hamlet.
Speaker: spear carrier number three in the back of every production and didn't get a chance to play the lead.
Speaker: And she gave him the chance to play Hamlet.
Speaker: And this production was groundbreaking and it got rave reviews.
Speaker: And it looked like her career was really about to pop off.
Speaker: And actually four days after their opening night, she was found dead in her apartment.
Speaker: And, yeah, so this play is about her life and her life up until that point and her production of Hamlet and then her death and how it's very obscure as to what really happened to her and if there was foul play involved and they're not really sure.
Speaker: And the Royal Shakespeare Company attempted to kind of cover it up.
Speaker: And, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, it's really, yeah, talk about challenging because it's what should be a really light or bright spot in their history has turned into this really sour thing.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I got to tell, I got to be a part of the world premiere of that at Alabama Shakespeare Festival a few years ago, and we performed it in their scene shop.
Speaker: So we were using, like, we were driving trucks into the space and using, like, machinery and using, like, big great lifts and,
Speaker: uh, yeah, it was just, it was really cool to be a part of something, a story about a woman who should be very well known in theater spaces, but she is not well known at all.
Speaker: Like no one, no one really knows her story.
Speaker: So, um, yeah, I, I hope that that gets another iteration.
Speaker: I, I really liked that play and I, I hope, um, you know, another theater produces it soon in the future.
Speaker: I would love to be a part of it.
Speaker: Yeah, that's really amazing.
Speaker: So did you say she's the first female director of the Royal Shakespeare Company you ever had?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Marianne Goodbody.
Speaker: Yeah, it was the 70s.
Speaker: I'm not quite sure what exact year, but I know it was, yeah, early 70s.
Speaker: That just blows my mind for how long Shakespeare's been around.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: That's crazy.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Well, let's jump to Lord of the Rings a little bit again.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: And let's chat about Frodo.
Speaker: So first, I'm just curious, what was the experience of getting the role?
Speaker: So you said you didn't know the musical beforehand or that it was out there.
Speaker: No, I didn't know the musical.
Speaker: I had heard Now and for Always.
Speaker: I can't remember who played it.
Speaker: You know, I lived in New York for six years and hung out with a lot of theater people, and everyone was always like, oh, listen to this obscure song from this random musical no one ever knows.
Speaker: And so I think someone played Now and for Always from the Lord of the Rings musical, and I remember hearing it for the first time and being like, wait, this song is amazing, and why isn't this music – how did this musical never make it to Broadway and all that stuff?
Speaker: Yeah, but besides that, I didn't know anything about it.
Speaker: And –
Speaker: Wait, what was the original question?
Speaker: I'm already... Yeah, I think I added two.
Speaker: What was the experience then of you finding out and auditioning and getting that part and pursuing that and deciding to go out for it?
Speaker: Yeah, well, it was very hush-hush at the beginning.
Speaker: They were like, people are auditioning for this unnamed project that's going to be making its premiere at Chicago Shakes.
Speaker: And so usually when things don't... When they're like, we can't tell you the name of it...
Speaker: It's because it's like a massive thing with either like a big director attached or a big, you know, IP like, you know, Tolkien.
Speaker: And yeah, so no one really knew what it was.
Speaker: And I was like, yeah, I mean, I want to audition for this.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Any, any like big project that, and Chicago Shakespeare is one of the biggest, you know, theaters in Chicago.
Speaker: So I, and I haven't worked there yet and I've only lived in Chicago and,
Speaker: for like two and a half years.
Speaker: So I was, yeah, I was amped to be able to audition for them.
Speaker: Um, and then I got the sides and it was like Lord of the Rings, Frodo, like very like confidential.
Speaker: Don't read it.
Speaker: Um, well actually I'll go back.
Speaker: I actually was, uh, originally synthesized for Sam.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: And I was like, oh, I was like, I don't really.
Speaker: And they wanted him to be a great guitar player.
Speaker: And I was like, I don't really.
Speaker: I play like four chords on the guitar.
Speaker: And it's not my, I'm more of a actor, singer, dancer, and not so much a, you know, I don't play instruments for real.
Speaker: I play a little bit of guitar.
Speaker: I'm getting better, actually.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: just from being inspired by my castmates who all play like all of them play like seven different.
Speaker: That was incredible.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, but yeah, so I talked to my agents back and forth about Sam and I was like, I, I just don't think, I think Frodo's my part.
Speaker: I think I, I just resonate more with his, uh, his determination and I liked the arc a little bit better.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: His journey from being someone that everyone admired in Hobbiton and his friends looked up to him and looked up to him to be a leader and to see him fall and get taken over from this really pure person to being totally overcome by evil is just a really...
Speaker: I mean, you can't ask for a better character arc.
Speaker: And he has to rely on the help of his friends to get him through it.
Speaker: So I just, yeah, it's a part that I desperately wanted to play.
Speaker: So they ended up having me read for Frodo instead of Sam, which thank goodness, because I thought I made like a 10-minute long first audition tape where they said they didn't want to hear anyone sing, but they wanted to see somebody play an instrument.
Speaker: And so I was like, well, I don't really – I play – I'm a really good tap dancer, so I'm good with percussion.
Speaker: And I was like, I can play a cajon.
Speaker: I can fake my way around a cajon.
Speaker: So I like, you know, did a couple little beats on a cajon, and that was like, this is me playing an instrument.
Speaker: But I really – I wanted to nail the scene, so I worked with –
Speaker: I worked with my, my friend and mentor, uh, Patrick Mulvey, who's a Chicago actor and, um, is amazing.
Speaker: He's been in a ton of different things, TV and film and Broadway.
Speaker: And, uh, we did work on the audition together and, um, I just felt really good about it.
Speaker: I had a really good feeling about it.
Speaker: Didn't hear anything for like a month and then, uh, got a call back in person.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: where it was at Chicago shakes.
Speaker: And I went in and, um, I sat down and when I got into the waiting room, there was, uh, only two other actors in there.
Speaker: One, one was reading for, for Legolas and actually right when I got there and sent my stuff down, they brought him into the room.
Speaker: And so then it was just me and one other guy.
Speaker: And it was, uh, Michael Kurowski who ended up being our Sam.
Speaker: Um, and so I'm sitting there and I'm like really nervous.
Speaker: Cause I'm like, this is,
Speaker: the biggest audition I've had this year and the biggest audition I've had in quite a while.
Speaker: So I really want to, I was really nervous and I just, I wanted to go over the lines just to, just to say them and not sit there with my thoughts.
Speaker: And so I asked Michael, I'd never met him before when I was like, Hey man, what, like, what do you happen to be reading for?
Speaker: And he said, Oh, I'm in for Sam.
Speaker: And I said, well, that's perfect.
Speaker: I'm in for Frodo.
Speaker: Can we like read this?
Speaker: They had this,
Speaker: the Sam Frodo scene at the top of the second act where they first get attacked by Gollum.
Speaker: So we started reading the scene together and I was like, wait, this guy's pretty good.
Speaker: Like, I hope I would love for them to ask us to read together in the room.
Speaker: That would be amazing.
Speaker: They didn't ask us to read together, but I went in the room and I thought the audition went really well.
Speaker: It was on zoom.
Speaker: So it was weird because I was in the room with the artistic director of,
Speaker: Chicago Shakes and the casting director.
Speaker: And then Paul Hart, our director, was in England.
Speaker: So he was on Zoom on a TV screen.
Speaker: And then Mark Aspinall, who's the music supervisor, was also on Zoom.
Speaker: So it was my first time doing like a hybrid audition where like I'm auditioning for people in the room, but I'm actually auditioning like the people who make more of the call as the director.
Speaker: So he's on this show.
Speaker: tv screen and uh-huh it was weird so i didn't really i thought i did a good job but i was like well i have no idea i can't read it's hard to read someone through a through a zoom screen especially when i'm trying to focus on my acting and not really what they're doing um right so yeah and then again it took like another month and i didn't hear anything and uh
Speaker: I was kind of upset because I was like, man, I really I thought I was great for this role.
Speaker: And, you know, when you don't you try not to get your hopes up, but sometimes there's a part that comes along and you really get your hopes up.
Speaker: And so I actually I was in Scotland for a friend's wedding and I went to Scotland for a week and I was hiking in the Highlands.
Speaker: with a friend of mine and I was like really feeling, I was, you know, thinking about Lord of the Rings and Frodo and Sam's journey and as I'm hiking up this mountain and I just remember praying like, oh Lord, like if it's meant to be, God just please like let this happen.
Speaker: Like I, you know, thank you for the opportunity to even audition for it and everything that I've been so blessed in my life.
Speaker: And, but I just, I really,
Speaker: Like this role is just calling to me, God, like, please.
Speaker: And sure enough, when I got back from Scotland, the day after I got back, I got an email from my agent being like, you have a final callback for Lord of the Rings on Zoom.
Speaker: And it's tomorrow morning.
Speaker: And this was like, it was like five o'clock on a Wednesday night.
Speaker: And they were like, your final callback is on Zoom at 10 a.m.
Speaker: tomorrow.
Speaker: And I was like, oh, gosh, man.
Speaker: Which was crazy.
Speaker: I never, it's such a quick turnaround.
Speaker: So yeah, I got to Zoom at the house I was living in in Chicago.
Speaker: And I remember I finished the audition and my roommates were in their rooms.
Speaker: And as soon as I like signed off the Zoom link, they like opened up their doors and they were like, dude, you so got that.
Speaker: Like you definitely got it.
Speaker: There's no way.
Speaker: They were like, you crushed that.
Speaker: There's no way they don't take you.
Speaker: And so then I got my hopes up again and I was like, oh no, but if it doesn't happen, you know, it's just not meant to be.
Speaker: But, um, yeah, it was a great feeling when I, I got the call, uh, I guess like a few days after that, but it was only two weeks before we started rehearsals.
Speaker: So they, they were cast.
Speaker: It took them a very long time to, to cast the show.
Speaker: And I, apparently there was like guys reading for it in New York and guys up for it in London.
Speaker: And they, they said it was, it was like an international search for, for Frodo.
Speaker: So I, you know, I had to get approved by Middle Earth Enterprises and yeah, there was, it's just, but now I'm a part of this massive thing and just so grateful.
Speaker: Like it's, it's the role of a lifetime.
Speaker: It pushes me in all the right ways and yeah,
Speaker: To be able to do it with this cast and to perform with Michael and Tony and Tom Amanda, Gandalf, and just literally everyone in the company.
Speaker: It's just a beautiful cast and I'm super lucky.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What has been the most challenging thing about it as you've dived into the role?
Speaker: Yeah, I think the most challenging thing for me is the vocal performance.
Speaker: the vocal toll that it takes.
Speaker: Uh, it's a lot of screaming and a lot of, uh, a lot of dying.
Speaker: Um, yeah, I mean, it's a long show.
Speaker: It's three hours, three hours.
Speaker: And, um, Frodo's the main character.
Speaker: So I talk, I talk quite a bit and I do a lot of, a lot of yelling, a lot of, you know, once I get stabbed, there's a lot of screaming and a lot of being tense and, um,
Speaker: And I really tried to, in the second act, as the ring is kind of taking over more and more, and he's in such a depressed and just fragile state, and he has that speech where he says, I feel stretched somehow, rolled out so thinly, like you can see right through me.
Speaker: And that one, that's probably the hardest speech I think to do every night, because it comes from such a vulnerable and just...
Speaker: someone who's just torn apart physically and emotionally and everything in him is telling him that he's a failure and he's not going to be able to do it and you can't do it and your friends don't love you and don't trust anybody and you need it for yourself and all these things and going to that like
Speaker: dark, just, I mean, frankly, evil place every night was, is, is just, it was taxing.
Speaker: Um, but, uh,
Speaker: Yeah, I, that was probably the hardest part.
Speaker: It was just like vocally getting there.
Speaker: It just, I, every, um, every Sunday night and Monday, it was, it was kind of like limping across the finish line, but yeah.
Speaker: Uh, do you mind if I ask, was there like any, cause I've done roles before where it's like, I'm delving into things in me that I know are like some of my deepest struggles or the darkest parts of me that I know I really struggle with.
Speaker: So in going to those places, was there anything, um,
Speaker: that you felt like that carried over that impacted you in your own life as you were walking through that as the character or that maybe hit you in a new way with your relationship with God as you kind of dangled over into that dark edge with the character.
Speaker: Yeah, totally.
Speaker: I mean, I think, um, well, at the end of the show, when he, when, uh,
Speaker: Sam and Rosie get married and Frodo, at least in our staging of it, Frodo's not even looking at them when they get married.
Speaker: And the very next line is, Frodo Baggins, though, is too often ill.
Speaker: And there was something about, I was actually supposed to be the best man in one of my best friend's weddings down in Georgia.
Speaker: And unfortunately, I wasn't able to go because it conflicted with the opening weekend of our show.
Speaker: And it was one of those tough things where it's like work or life and work and friendships and something I've struggled with my whole life as an actor is missing things because of being in a show.
Speaker: And so...
Speaker: Uh, yeah, I, it just gutted me that I couldn't be the best man, my best friend's wedding.
Speaker: And here I was doing the show and I remember the week of the wedding and the night of the wedding when I was missing it.
Speaker: And that line happened.
Speaker: I, you know, I, I let myself like Spencer kind of, uh, it was one of the scarier moments I've had on stage where I kind of lost control a little bit and it was like Spencer getting emotional and not Frodo getting emotional.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: I got it back in time, but there was like a scary moment where I was like, I was like crying a little uncontrollably just from, you know, feeling sad and feeling alone and feeling like I'm letting down my friends and, um,
Speaker: Like, how can I call myself someone's best friend if I'm not even going to show up for his wedding and stuff like that?
Speaker: And of course, my friend is amazing.
Speaker: And he was like, he was like, dude, I'm so proud of you.
Speaker: You're living your dream.
Speaker: And like, we will, we'll have many more chances to like, spend time with each other.
Speaker: And you know, I always love you.
Speaker: And I'm proud of you.
Speaker: And
Speaker: like he was great.
Speaker: And I, um, he eventually was able to come and see the show.
Speaker: And so I got to connect with him and his wife and, um, just, I was super encouraged by just, you know, them understanding that they're also artists as well.
Speaker: So they kind of get the struggle, but, uh, yeah, that one, that one was tough that night of, of feeling, um, you know, like I'm, I'm truly letting my friends down.
Speaker: Like I'm really, you know, I, uh,
Speaker: I wish I could be a better friend.
Speaker: And that was kind of tough to work through.
Speaker: But yeah, I kind of love when shows do that though, when they challenge you to really look at your own life.
Speaker: You have to constantly take stock of everything in your life because everything happens so quickly and you got to be grateful for every moment.
Speaker: So that was the reminder to, yeah, just to love your friends,
Speaker: Always.
Speaker: Yeah, that is lovely.
Speaker: I do feel like, I don't know if this is just because when you're working on something, that's where your brain is at and you're meditating on that.
Speaker: But I know for myself, if I look back through roles I've played or projects I've worked on, it very often feels like they've been arranged to match whatever season of life I'm in, in some strange random way.
Speaker: And it's just like, I do this and then there's this completely different thing happening in life.
Speaker: And it's like, oh,
Speaker: look at how that worked out.
Speaker: God just set that up perfectly for me to work it through there or learn there.
Speaker: So that's awesome.
Speaker: That's so cool.
Speaker: What is it about the story of Lord of the Rings that like most resonates with you, either like the books or the ad, this adaptation you guys have done or in the movies?
Speaker: Yeah, I think, I think for me, it's just at the core of it, it's,
Speaker: that you have to rely on others and you can't do it alone.
Speaker: You physically cannot.
Speaker: And Tolkien has written such a gorgeous friendship between Sam and Frodo that
Speaker: they just never give up on each other.
Speaker: And even when they want to give up separately, they don't.
Speaker: I guess when Frodo literally can't go on anymore, his friend literally picks him up and carries him.
Speaker: It's just such a beautiful story of the truest form of love and sacrifice.
Speaker: Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker: That's probably the
Speaker: the biggest, yeah, the biggest draw to it is just their friendship at the core of the story.
Speaker: And yeah, it's inspiring.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I definitely think that came through in your production.
Speaker: My wife and I have remarked several times about how we loved the way you guys played that, the dynamic that was set up between them and the history that you could feel between them.
Speaker: And like one of the moments just visually that I remember loving is right after...
Speaker: I think it's right after the Shelob encounter when you're getting up and the rest of the cast comes out and you have like this shadow, like grabbing their hand and them helping you up.
Speaker: And just the idea of all the people in our lives and the people God has blessed us with that we rely on and that are like contribute to parts of ourselves, carrying us through those difficult times.
Speaker: I just thought was painted so beautifully there.
Speaker: Yeah, I love that scene too.
Speaker: And it also, it just reminds me that, you know, even though Sam, all of those people weren't actually there with Sam and Frodo on Mount Doom, obviously.
Speaker: But they were all, you know, back home, they were all thinking of them and, you know, worrying about them.
Speaker: And it just reminds me, like, we're so
Speaker: As Christians, it's so amazing to know that, you know, even though if I'm not actually with someone like that person's praying for me and that person's thinking of me.
Speaker: And there's there's so many things that God has at work and people in.
Speaker: like him working through people that you don't even know.
Speaker: And like, he's working through you and, and, and, uh, you know, affecting you in ways you don't even know.
Speaker: So, um, yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker: That scene, that scene's great.
Speaker: It was lovely.
Speaker: It like made me think of the idea of like the cloud of saints in Hebrews when it's like, we're surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses.
Speaker: Yeah, oh, that's nice.
Speaker: It was so good.
Speaker: And like what you said of people we don't even know, and thinking about for Tolkien as a Catholic, the importance of the saints in his faith, and all these people that came before us too.
Speaker: Yeah, anyways, I could geek out about that for a while.
Speaker: No, totally.
Speaker: I love it.
Speaker: I love it.
Speaker: I love it.
Speaker: It's so good.
Speaker: How do you think your faith influenced the way you approached the role, or the things that...
Speaker: maybe you felt were important or wanted to draw out or just small moments that connected for you?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Uh, I think I always, I can't help but not like not think of, I always think about heaven in the last scene when he's, um, you know, when they're at the gray heavens and he's, he's about to get on the board, the ship to go to the West and, uh, find some peace.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: yeah, it just always reminds me about how, uh, there's so many, there's so much evil and bad things in this world.
Speaker: And this, this isn't it.
Speaker: It's like, it gives me so much hope that like, you know, no matter what struggles I'm going through or what struggles the world's going through, that there is, there is a perfect place, um, waiting for us.
Speaker: It's just, uh,
Speaker: Yeah, it gives me a lot of hope, and it also, I think it just deepens my faith every night.
Speaker: It's just such a nice, yeah, it's a nice little reminder that, like, that heaven is there and God is there.
Speaker: And I use, at least for me, and...
Speaker: There's a song called Yarendil where Arwen and the elves are singing before, like, as the fellowship has just formed and they're about to leave Rivendell.
Speaker: And there's a moment where I'm kind of, like, in the front of the stage, kind of, like, kneeling at a pew.
Speaker: And it's almost like kneeling at an altar.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I use that moment as, like, a little moment of...
Speaker: It's a moment of Frodo getting prepared to go on this journey, but it's also, for me, it's like Spencer.
Speaker: I just use it as a moment of prayer to be like, help me get through this show, help me get through this week, and thank you.
Speaker: Just a moment of, I just use it as a moment of gratitude.
Speaker: It's just amazing that I get to be on the stage doing this thing.
Speaker: It's just the coolest thing in the world.
Speaker: I use that as a little...
Speaker: a little moment of a check in each day.
Speaker: And it's like, it's like right halfway through act one feels like a little, it's a nice little, yeah.
Speaker: Nice little check in with God during the show.
Speaker: It's really good.
Speaker: That is awesome.
Speaker: That was, that was another scene that really stuck out to me.
Speaker: Cause it felt like that felt like maybe one of the most distinct ways I think I've ever seen Tolkien's faith in
Speaker: integrated into an adaptation of Lord of the Rings.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: It was like, we're going to heavy handed or anything, but it just felt like, cause my wife and I go to an Anglican church.
Speaker: My wife grew up Catholic.
Speaker: So just that, that part of the faith I've become fairly familiar with over the last couple of years.
Speaker: And so seeing that scene for a moment, I was just like, Oh, I do kind of feel like I'm at church, but not in a like bad way of like, now we're going to preach at you, but just in a like,
Speaker: we're all just entering into God's presence together, which, you know, I'm sure everybody on stage has varying interpretations of what's going on there and such.
Speaker: But I felt that that was very just lovely.
Speaker: And I was just happy as a Tolkien fan to like see some of that in there.
Speaker: Oh, good.
Speaker: Yeah, that was lovely.
Speaker: And I, yeah, we talked about this a little bit, I think when we chatted after the show as well, but the way Tolkien writes about heaven when he's writing about the Grey Havens,
Speaker: Like going and I think I was like, that's just one of my favorite lines when Ian McKellen says it in the movies and whenever I read it in the books.
Speaker: And I was like, I hope this line is in there somewhere about the curtain of the world peeling back and everything turning to silver glass and all of that.
Speaker: And I'm just like bawling.
Speaker: Yeah, same.
Speaker: It just...
Speaker: It has like this resonant clarity, I think to what we were made for more than like the stereotype of like the clouds in the sky and harps and things that I think we often think of.
Speaker: Ooh.
Speaker: Um, yeah, gosh.
Speaker: Anyways, that's another thing I could go off and geek about, but for sure.
Speaker: Beautiful.
Speaker: As you've.
Speaker: tackled the role are there things about him that you feel like has stuck with you because I know for me It feels like characters always work their way into my life somehow in some small ways Are there things about Frodo that you feel like?
Speaker: Either in small ways or in big ways have stuck with you and impacted you in your life Yeah His his willingness to Say yes and his willingness to do anything like
Speaker: to protect his friends, you know?
Speaker: I think in his family, like I, yeah, he, he, at least in our adaptation, it's like, oh, you know, Gandalf is telling Frodo about how Sauron is going to be searching for the ring and how his search is going to lead him to the Shire and Frodo's immediately like, well,
Speaker: you know, here, take it away.
Speaker: Like you have to take it away.
Speaker: And I was like, I can't.
Speaker: And he said, well, if you can't, I guess I will.
Speaker: And I have to, it's something I have to do.
Speaker: And he doesn't, he's not like, well, what if I die or what if, I mean, I'm sure he thinks about that, but he's never, he's always like, well, I just have to save those people.
Speaker: It's just, it has to be done.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Just his willingness to, to drop anything to help other people.
Speaker: I'm just trying to be
Speaker: More like that, you know, just love harder, you know, love fiercely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, I hope I don't have to like, you know, get attacked by spiders and all that stuff.
Speaker: Jump into a volcano.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: It's just, you know, really like truthfully showing up for your friends.
Speaker: And I feel like the more that I...
Speaker: give myself to other people.
Speaker: And the more I can help other people, the more that God makes my own life easier without even me trying.
Speaker: But the more when I focus on myself and it's like, well, these are the problems that I have and I really have to solve this.
Speaker: And I don't have time for that because I got my own stuff going on over here is usually when I get more stressed and start to spiral a little bit more.
Speaker: But, um,
Speaker: When I take a deep breath and slow down and really spend time with other people and help them in any way I can is when life just seems to be more grateful and more God-filled and love-filled.
Speaker: So I'm just trying to spend more time doing that.
Speaker: And Frodo, I mean, he reminds me of that every single night when the journey starts.
Speaker: Yeah, it's...
Speaker: He's, I always go back to, in the books, when at the beginning, they're describing like why Frodo is the one that has to take the ring.
Speaker: And Gandalf and Bilbo both agree that he, they say he's the best of hobbits.
Speaker: Which just, he encompasses everything, all the good qualities of a hobbit.
Speaker: I just, I try to remind, I mean, it's a lot more,
Speaker: to put on a person, but I, I try to strive to, you know, do all the things that hobbits do, which is community hobbits do community better than, than any other race in middle earth.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: Um, yeah.
Speaker: Try to do, be more like that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I feel like when you do that, cause I have that tension to a lot of times, but when you are just operating and I'm going to focus on God and others and love them well and show up in those moments, even when it feels like I can't God, like just without fail, we'll give you what you need in that.
Speaker: I feel like that's present for Frodo too.
Speaker: Like subtextually, it seems like he always gets what he needs in support from others or, um,
Speaker: From the circumstances around or on Mount Doom, like a god just seems to have set up, Middle Earth god seems to have set up everything just right.
Speaker: So even though Frodo maybe doesn't have the strength to get that final step.
Speaker: He was faithful in everything that God needed him to do to get there.
Speaker: And then God's like, okay, and now I can get it in there from here.
Speaker: I mean, I could have done that.
Speaker: Anyways, but he delighted to use the character.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And isn't it one of the Valar who end up pushing Gollum into the... Oh, I don't know.
Speaker: Yeah, there's like... I forget which... Like one of the old...
Speaker: Ancient gods like intervenes and is the one that pushes Gollum into Mount Doom.
Speaker: I need to look it up.
Speaker: I need to look that up too.
Speaker: Someone was telling me in the show.
Speaker: Somebody who read The Cimmerillion was telling me that.
Speaker: I haven't read all of it.
Speaker: I haven't read The Cimmerillion.
Speaker: I haven't read all of it.
Speaker: I've read the first quarter and then I keep fizzling out and then I start over and then I fizzle out again.
Speaker: So I could look into that.
Speaker: I don't know if I'll get to it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, that's like my, I don't know, maybe when I'm retired and I have very little time.
Speaker: Right, yeah.
Speaker: I have a whole day, I can read this.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Sweet.
Speaker: Well, we have a few minutes left, so I'm going to ask two more questions quick.
Speaker: One, do you have just a fun favorite memory from doing the show, or a couple, where it was just like, this was a fun thing?
Speaker: Oh my gosh, so many memories.
Speaker: I think...
Speaker: One of my favorite memories was when we were in tech rehearsal and that show is such a, it's so tech heavy and anyone who's been in a musical or play knows that tech week, some people call it hell week.
Speaker: Like it's, it's like, yeah, it can be, it tests everyone's patience.
Speaker: Everyone's, everyone's tired.
Speaker: Everyone's hungry.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: You know, so people are very... People can get, you know, testy and people can, you know... Yeah, not everyone is like...
Speaker: super easy going during tech week to say the least.
Speaker: So, uh, we were all kind of feeling that and we were, you know, not nearly as far along as, as we wanted to be.
Speaker: And we were at the scene in the second act, uh, actually the right after now and for always.
Speaker: And we had just finished now and for always.
Speaker: And, um, the not cool like projector dragon flies over, um,
Speaker: And we're supposed to put our like elven hoods up.
Speaker: And it was the first time, tech rehearsal, it was the first time we'd had the elven cloaks.
Speaker: And Michael Kurowski, we made this...
Speaker: Oh, to go back even further, we made this, like, short series called Gamgee in the Garden.
Speaker: And he... It's... Sam decides to, like, grow potatoes in the garden at Chicago Shakes.
Speaker: And so we made... There's a couple of episodes on YouTube you can watch.
Speaker: We never finished the series, but we made two episodes.
Speaker: Bernadette, who's in the show, she was the producer, and she's amazing.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: In the series he had the thing where he like flipped his elven cloak and he's like elven cloak go and I was like, okay It was it's gonna be hilarious when the dragon flies over we're both gonna say open cloak go Which is and make a big like swoosh with our clothes and everyone's gonna lose their mind and like Everyone was like kind of tense and on edge and so we did it we went up and cloak go and like
Speaker: The cast members on stage started dying laughing, but then there was a big silence in the audience after that, and the director gets on the god mic and goes, you're both fired.
Speaker: And we all just kind of lost it.
Speaker: And it was nice.
Speaker: Everyone was in such a tense mood that it was just kind of nice to be like, okay, we're doing this ridiculous story about elves and dwarves and hobbits.
Speaker: And we have to remind ourselves that we're playing.
Speaker: We're playing.
Speaker: So, yeah, it was a nice moment of liberty in a tense situation.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's lovely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So one of the things I like to do for the podcast and on our website, for me growing up in a smaller city, wanting to pursue acting and just art in general, I've relied a lot on internet and books and these different things.
Speaker: So I like to build out resources for people.
Speaker: So are there some resources you would recommend for anybody who's interested in either growing in their art
Speaker: probably particularly theater or performance art or who want to grow and deepen their faith in Christ?
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, it's funny.
Speaker: You have The Artist's Way right there.
Speaker: That's such a great book.
Speaker: In college, that was a big help for me, at least.
Speaker: Just like Daily Pages, which I've sort of gotten away from and I should probably get back on it.
Speaker: It's just...
Speaker: It's a, that's a really good encourager for any struggling artists, I think is like reading the artist way and doing your daily pages is a really good way to, to just grow and push yourself as an artist.
Speaker: Um, yeah, that's, uh, that's about it.
Speaker: When I was in New York, I, I, um,
Speaker: I was in this really great group of faith-based artists who we would meet up and sing and worship together once a week.
Speaker: So I'm missing them.
Speaker: I said the Big Apple Church in New York, so anyone who is in the city should go check them out.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Sorry.
Speaker: I wish I had more.
Speaker: I'm drawing a blank.
Speaker: That's chill.
Speaker: That's all right.
Speaker: That helps.
Speaker: Sweet.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much.
Speaker: This has been lovely.
Speaker: Like probably the biggest interview I've done.
Speaker: I'm very excited about it.
Speaker: So thank you so much for being willing to come chat.
Speaker: Of course.
Speaker: This was great.
Speaker: I'm really grateful that you asked me to do this.
Speaker: This has been great.
