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FDS Gets Entangled with Sex Work Twitter
44 Plays4 years ago
We brought the receipts on Sex Work Twitter. Lilith reveals the pitfalls of being a sugar baby. The house always wins.
Original Twitter Thread: https://twitter.com/FemDatStrat/status/1391083879319040001?s=20
Tweet #1:
Porn regularly depicts criminal sexual activity as heteronormative practice; displays high levels of sexual aggression which contributes to normalizing abuse
https://twitter.com/FemDatStrat/status/1391915595885469698?s=20
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6751001/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0391-2
Tweet #2:
Sex workers don't have an ethical code, often know their clients are married, provide fake ego strokes to invalidate wife's feelings, and will prioritize the feelings and wants of men over those of other women
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vid8TUMuwc
Tweet #3:
Sex Work Twitter claiming that the anti-porn "religous lobby" is trying to "destroy their livelihood" by pushing for regulations around PornHub
https://twitter.com/Salon/status/1344448807321432064
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-55551300
Tweet #4: Blue Check Sex Workers doxxing and harrassing trafficking and involuntary pornography victims.
https://twitter.com/femdatstrat/status/1392157656526196736?s=21
Tweet #5: Onlyfans is a pyramid scheme/ cut referral bonuses for sex workers (the house always wins)
https://unherd.com/thepost/onlyfans-is-an-experiment-in-mass-grooming/
https://www.vice.com/en/article/xg8qqq/onlyfans-cutting-creator-referral-program-bonuses-payout
Homelessness - Prostitution Link
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10926771.2016.1223246?journalCode=wamt20
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170620/
https://givingcompass.org/pdf/prostitution-and-homelessness/
The Mann Act AKA - "White Slave Traffic Act of 1910 " made a direct comparison to the sex trade and slavery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Act
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Transcript
FDS vs Sex Work Twitter: The Controversial Feud
00:00:04
Speaker
Just a little one.
00:00:21
Speaker
Yeah, just a teensy little one.
00:00:24
Speaker
FDS versus OnlyFans Twitter.
00:00:26
Speaker
With a slight sprinkling of BDSM Twitter as well.
00:00:29
Speaker
Yeah, sex work Twitter.
00:00:31
Speaker
We had a feud with sex work Twitter, basically.
00:00:33
Speaker
I don't know if you guys saw the drama, but we can read it out.
00:00:37
Speaker
I just wanted to say, I wanted to talk about this on the podcast because, first of all, I didn't write those tweets, so I can't take credit for it.
00:00:46
Speaker
But reading those definitely made me reflect on some of my own experiences as former Sugar Baby.
00:00:51
Speaker
And so I kind of wanted to talk about that in this podcast.
00:00:54
Speaker
But before we do that, let's go ahead and read what the actual tweets were for those who aren't in on the podcast.
00:01:00
Speaker
Yeah, it was like a massive blow up and by far our most singular tweet engagement that we've had so far.
00:01:07
Speaker
I don't know if we would have predicted this would be the one, but apparently we really... Ruffled some feathers there, yeah.
00:01:14
Speaker
We ruffled some feathers, jangled some corsets and kicked some dildos out of... Ruffled some dildos?
00:01:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:24
Speaker
But anyways, let's go ahead and read the tweets first and then use that as kind of a starting point to talk about it.
00:01:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
Critique of Sex Work Narratives and Feminism
00:01:31
Speaker
So the series of tweets that we made on our Twitter account was basically pointing out all the places in which sex work Twitter has started to creep into the mainstream, saying they're fighting stigmas, they're pro-feminist, they're pro-female, and that's not supporting them as anti-feminist and anti-female, and then pointing out the hypocrisy of that, considering all of the things that they continuously do that are attacking women, that are anti-female, and
00:01:57
Speaker
and that are contributing to the dehumanization and abuse of women, and especially women of color.
00:02:02
Speaker
So this is just basically a clapback to that ever loud and growing cohort who decided they need their work, quote unquote, validated at the expense of what would be civilian women, which we describe here.
00:02:16
Speaker
Civilian women was a colloquial term that sex workers use for women who are not sex workers.
00:02:21
Speaker
And this series of tweets was a clapback to that, was saying like,
00:02:25
Speaker
It's very hard for you to claim some kind of feminist superiority and then try to guilt trip people in supporting your content when a lot of your content is actually the problem.
00:02:33
Speaker
So this is what these series of tweets are about.
00:02:36
Speaker
So just brief history, the entanglements between sex work Twitter and FDS has come in the form of media critique from sources like Vice Media and other sources of women's media that have been pushing the pro-porn narrative.
00:02:50
Speaker
So if you notice in our tweet history, we've posted different articles and excerpts from Vice, from Mashable, from Allure, from different magazines that have had these like
00:03:00
Speaker
narratives where they're grooming or pushing girls into sex work or trying to obscure the reality of the profession to create an empowerment narrative.
00:03:10
Speaker
And so for a lot of our people that follow the subreddit, they know a lot of times we post tweets like this to be somewhat provocative on purpose to point out the hypocrisy.
00:03:20
Speaker
So we have actually a history of doing
Sex Work Twitter's Role in Harmful Stereotypes
00:03:22
Speaker
that.
00:03:22
Speaker
It's just that this set of tweets blew up in particular because a lot of sex workers started to jump in and respond to it versus the other ones where they didn't for whatever reason.
00:03:31
Speaker
Okay, so starting off with the first one, how sex workers can support civilian women.
00:03:36
Speaker
Number one, stop making content that sexualizes rape, pedophilia, incest, misogyny, or racism.
00:03:42
Speaker
This is normalizing and reinforcing harmful stereotypes which contribute to civilian women's abuse.
00:03:47
Speaker
Yeah, see, I don't see what's offensive about that.
00:03:49
Speaker
It's like, don't be racist and don't be misogynistic.
00:03:53
Speaker
Oh my god, that's so offensive.
00:03:54
Speaker
Like, what?
00:03:55
Speaker
I think a lot of the anger came from sex workers who were accusing FDS of blaming them for... Like men's depraved sexual desires.
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:04:07
Speaker
But the thing is, though, they create the demand as well.
00:04:11
Speaker
It's a cycle, you know, men demand it, they provide it.
00:04:15
Speaker
and the men demand it some more, they're happy to continue providing it.
00:04:20
Speaker
So, you know, they are complicit.
00:04:22
Speaker
You know, whilst we're not saying that they invented racism, paedophilia and incest, they are complicit in... Catering to those desires, yeah.
00:04:34
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:04:35
Speaker
And essentially normalizing it in sexual activity.
00:04:39
Speaker
So a couple of different angles of criticism that we got from sex workers were either like, oh, it's just fantasy and you can't compare fantasy to reality.
00:04:48
Speaker
And these types of things have no effect on real women.
00:04:51
Speaker
And we posted a lot of different studies that showed that, yes, in fact, that porn is regularly depicting sex.
00:04:58
Speaker
criminal sexual activity as heteronormative practice, meaning like they're normalizing what would be criminal sexual activity.
00:05:04
Speaker
That's stuff like creep shots, that's stuff like rape, that's stuff like pedophilic grooming, stuff like obviously misogyny and also racism.
00:05:13
Speaker
And we've seen stuff like, I think you mentioned this in a couple of podcasts ago about how there was during the Trump administration, this surge in the ICE detains migrant worker porn.
00:05:25
Speaker
which is particularly horrific because a lot of women in ICE custody did get raped, were raped by ICE agents.
00:05:33
Speaker
It's horrible.
00:05:33
Speaker
So this tweet is calling to task Sex Work Twitter saying, you are contributing to these dehumanizing stereotypes of women by entertaining these kinds of quote unquote fantasies.
00:05:45
Speaker
And that's actually part of the reason why sex work gets stigmatized is because content like this is actually quite offensive.
00:05:52
Speaker
You're making light of what is actually a horrific situation for people in ICE custody.
00:05:58
Speaker
And when they say it's fantasy, it's like, well, whose fantasy are you catering to, racist old white men?
00:06:03
Speaker
Like, it's actually quite disturbing that they're just so dismissive of the themes and the content of this.
00:06:11
Speaker
as just fantasy or saying like, well, men are demanding it.
00:06:15
Speaker
So that's where we're making it.
00:06:16
Speaker
And I'm like, well, then I don't feel like you're, you're actually supporting other women by making light of what is a crime.
Ethical Boundaries and Secrecy in Sex Work
00:06:23
Speaker
I mean, like to give an example, like I talked a few podcasts ago, how my first sexual experiences were literally, you know, porn was the classroom where I'd sit, you know, I was 14, I was dating a 16 year old guy.
00:06:36
Speaker
He'd been watching porn for years.
00:06:38
Speaker
He showed me some videos and yeah, they were pretty violent.
00:06:44
Speaker
And I remember seeing that and he said, this is sex.
00:06:46
Speaker
This is what I want to do.
00:06:48
Speaker
He didn't say this is heteronormative practice, but that was what he's implying, right?
00:06:53
Speaker
And so I just think it's dark.
00:06:58
Speaker
really, that a lot of young girls are getting these kinds of narratives and are thinking like that is what sex is supposed to be.
00:07:04
Speaker
And it's not healthy intimacy.
00:07:06
Speaker
I don't think we should be teaching people that.
00:07:08
Speaker
Right.
00:07:08
Speaker
And to be clear, we're not blaming desperation survival sex workers.
00:07:12
Speaker
We're blaming like OnlyFans, like a specific group of sex workers who choose this profession and want to normalize it and get like really aggy about people on Twitter that are critical of this and call everybody a swerf and a conservative Christian or whatever.
00:07:25
Speaker
That's essentially who are criticizing.
00:07:27
Speaker
A lot of the women who are the most more marginalized and don't have a choice aren't the ones that you're seeing in like the porn of this.
00:07:33
Speaker
It mostly seems like women who are, they're young women, sure, but a lot of them,
00:07:38
Speaker
they're choosing this because they think it's going to give them some kind of like fame or recognition or fortune.
00:07:43
Speaker
I have more to add to that, but I want to get through the tweets first because I don't think it's just that they're choosing it to be... A lot of that behavior is informed by trauma, but I'll get to that later once we get through the tweets.
00:07:57
Speaker
Tweet number two.
00:07:58
Speaker
Insist that your regular clients disclose to any women in their life that they use your services.
00:08:03
Speaker
The culture of silence from sex workers is unfair to other women as they are being robbed of their choice not to participate in a non-monogamous relationship.
00:08:11
Speaker
Yeah, so a lot of sex workers saw that and were like, oh my god, how preposterous.
00:08:15
Speaker
Like, why would I ever do that?
00:08:17
Speaker
Right?
00:08:18
Speaker
But that's the thing.
00:08:18
Speaker
That's the problem.
00:08:20
Speaker
That reaction itself is problematic, right?
00:08:23
Speaker
It's true that a lot of sex workers would never obviously tell their...
00:08:27
Speaker
clients' wives because that would put them in danger.
00:08:30
Speaker
So that's a good point.
00:08:31
Speaker
But at the same time, like by acknowledging, oh, if I do the right thing, I'm in danger.
00:08:35
Speaker
That's itself.
00:08:36
Speaker
It's like an emperor has no clothes moment where you're pointing out that this thing was not actually okay to begin with.
00:08:43
Speaker
And you can't say that you're pro-woman if you're willing to look the other way when, because a lot of sex workers say, oh, you know, men talk about their wives and, you know, girlfriends and relationships.
00:08:55
Speaker
A lot of them in the thread were making out like, you know, how am I supposed to know this?
00:09:00
Speaker
But in the same breath, they'll be saying, you know, we hear a lot about people's relationships.
00:09:05
Speaker
A lot of them liken themselves to therapists.
00:09:07
Speaker
They actually say like, I'm like a therapist.
00:09:09
Speaker
Exactly.
00:09:11
Speaker
Exactly.
00:09:11
Speaker
And they're putting other women's health at risk, like especially in terms of things like HPV.
00:09:18
Speaker
A lot of sex workers, they don't ask for STI or STD tests from their clients and you can't get tested for HPV.
00:09:26
Speaker
So they are literally putting other women at risk.
00:09:29
Speaker
And even in cases of where it's not even physical, like in real life sex work, where it's just online, you know, cam girls, OnlyFans, that kind of stuff.
00:09:37
Speaker
Even in that, like we see on subreddit, it's like porn-free relationships and stuff where women talk all the time about how porn and OnlyFans and how their boyfriend messaging girls on OnlyFans is taking away from their sex life or is making them feel bad about themselves.
00:09:51
Speaker
And so even in cases where STDs are not a risk,
00:09:55
Speaker
It's still harming women.
00:09:56
Speaker
100%.
00:09:56
Speaker
And it also begs the question, if, you know, sex work is work, like they say, then why is it so controversial to expect?
00:10:05
Speaker
Like ethical boundaries.
00:10:07
Speaker
I mean, all professions have like a code of honour or like a code of ethics.
00:10:11
Speaker
And so I don't see why...
00:10:13
Speaker
Like if in fact sex work is a legitimate profession, I don't see any reason why there can't be a code of ethics associated with it.
00:10:20
Speaker
The main point of this tweet to me was just pointing out the hypocrisy of their business model being based on them helping men to hide their discretionary activities from other women who they know in their life would not accept it and coddling their egos when they...
00:10:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:55
Speaker
I'm like, he'll lie to the sex worker and then she'll validate the lie.
00:10:58
Speaker
And then he'll go back to his wife and be like, you're a harpy bitch.
00:11:01
Speaker
Like other women are saying so.
00:11:03
Speaker
Exactly.
00:11:04
Speaker
So that's one of those things where let's just be transparent about what their business model
Sex Work During COVID-19: Essential or Risky?
00:11:09
Speaker
is.
00:11:09
Speaker
Their business model is to cater to the egos, wants, needs,
00:11:13
Speaker
of men, no matter how depraved and no matter how dehumanizing to the subject.
00:11:17
Speaker
You know, obviously they're up in arms over tweet one where we suggested, could you not make dehumanizing content?
00:11:21
Speaker
And they took a real issue with that.
00:11:23
Speaker
It's not like just a simple exchange of sex.
00:11:27
Speaker
It's a constant coddling of everything a man wants.
00:11:30
Speaker
And they don't want to have to draw boundaries as you can tell from their reaction to our tweet series.
00:11:38
Speaker
They don't want other women to have any boundaries about it.
00:11:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:41
Speaker
Or they don't think that the women in the relationships with these men deserve to have any boundaries.
00:11:45
Speaker
It's because, though, the entire sex work industry thrives off women just having a lack of boundaries.
00:11:52
Speaker
That's the reason why they reacted so badly to it.
00:11:54
Speaker
You know, having ethics and boundaries is incompatible with the sex industry.
00:12:01
Speaker
Yeah, that's exactly it, because the sex industry is unethical.
00:12:05
Speaker
So asking them to have any boundaries or ethics around it, in fact, seems ridiculous.
00:12:10
Speaker
Like, deep down, they know that it's impossible because it is inherently unethical.
00:12:15
Speaker
So having ethical boundaries sounds absurd.
00:12:18
Speaker
Yeah, because the product they're selling is the dehumination and disrespect.
00:12:21
Speaker
Yes.
00:12:22
Speaker
I think they don't want to admit that.
00:12:24
Speaker
So that's why they go into the narrative of I'm a therapist.
00:12:28
Speaker
But when you ask men why they visit a lot of these women, it's specifically because they don't have to respect them as people, right?
00:12:34
Speaker
Because they're an object to them.
00:12:36
Speaker
And a lot of times they know the stuff they're doing is fucked up.
00:12:39
Speaker
And they're like, well, I would never do this to my wife.
00:12:42
Speaker
Because they want the experience of being able to feel a certain way at the expense of women.
00:12:48
Speaker
And to not care about them.
00:12:50
Speaker
You know, they say like, you know, you pay a prostitute to leave.
00:12:54
Speaker
That's why you pay.
00:12:56
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's the business model.
00:12:57
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:12:59
Speaker
Three, stop lobbying against legal protections for women who are involuntarily coerced into participating in sex work because you may personally lose money.
00:13:07
Speaker
Please support and prioritize the safety of women and children first over the expansion of the industry.
00:13:12
Speaker
Ooh, there's a lot to
Pornhub, Non-consensual Content, and Feminist Reactions
00:13:13
Speaker
say here.
00:13:13
Speaker
This also has a history of entanglements with FDS versus sex work Twitter, which started actually during the lockdown where sex workers started lobbying the media.
00:13:23
Speaker
And there was a couple of media pieces that we critiqued where they were saying that they were essential workers.
00:13:28
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:13:29
Speaker
And that they should...
00:13:31
Speaker
Exactly my reaction where I'm like, your business model is actually very, very incompatible with the fact that we all have to stay home as to not spread disease.
00:13:42
Speaker
If your business model relies on customer contact, like physical customer contact, therefore you are not in compliance with COVID.
00:13:50
Speaker
And also you're not a necessary profession because literally nobody's going to die if they don't get their penis tug.
00:13:56
Speaker
And no one's entitled to sex as well.
00:13:58
Speaker
So you're not, it's not essential that you have sex.
00:14:01
Speaker
It reminds me of, like, Christians were being angry, like, oh, so you're saying church is an essential service, but abortion is?
00:14:10
Speaker
Yes.
00:14:11
Speaker
Exactly.
00:14:12
Speaker
That's exactly what I'm saying.
00:14:15
Speaker
So there was some clapback from people around that that was like...
00:14:20
Speaker
oh, you guys don't care about sex workers.
00:14:21
Speaker
Oh, you hate women.
00:14:22
Speaker
Oh, this is misogynist.
00:14:24
Speaker
And it's like, no, your profession is literally going to spread disease and there's nothing essential about your service, period.
00:14:29
Speaker
Like men will be okay if they don't get their penises wet for like a couple of months.
00:14:33
Speaker
Well, I guess a year it turned out.
00:14:35
Speaker
But at the time we didn't know how long it would be.
00:14:38
Speaker
I just want to say like, it's, it's ridiculous.
00:14:39
Speaker
I really am against this premise that
00:14:42
Speaker
that they're perpetuating that sex is a need just like oxygen or food.
00:14:47
Speaker
It's not.
00:14:48
Speaker
Like, people acting like, oh, sex is a basic need for all living things.
00:14:51
Speaker
No, it's not.
00:14:53
Speaker
A lot of animals in nature will go through their entire lives not mating.
00:14:58
Speaker
Like, a lot of male animals especially, they'll go through their entire lives not mating, and they're not, like, dropping dead, right?
00:15:04
Speaker
A lot of humans don't have sex, and they're fine.
00:15:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:09
Speaker
Like, are you really telling me that, like, all these monks in monasteries, all these, like, nuns in convents throughout history, they were just, like...
00:15:16
Speaker
Just like dropping dead here in front.
00:15:18
Speaker
They're on the verge of death their entire lives because they're not getting laid.
00:15:22
Speaker
Like, nah.
00:15:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:23
Speaker
So cis lawyer role.
00:15:25
Speaker
The second entanglement with FDS and sex work Twitter was obviously we've been very vocal in our disdain for the porn industry.
00:15:35
Speaker
And there's been a few people who have been really instrumental in putting the spotlight on tube sites like Xvideos and Pornhub.com.
00:15:44
Speaker
And one of them being Layla Micklewaite, which we hope to God we can get her on the podcast one day.
00:15:48
Speaker
But she was really instrumental.
00:15:50
Speaker
She went after Pornhub, started highlighting all the ways in which they were not responding to women who were being trafficked, how they had had child pornography on their site, how they had had rape on their site from women who had documented it was rape and how unresponsive and unsympathetic they were to women who were involuntarily posted on their site.
00:16:11
Speaker
And there was a New York Times article that came out that did a profile of a lot of these girls, some of which who are underage who were taking pictures for their boyfriend and some of them, they didn't take the pictures, their boyfriend might have snapped it of them when they were having sex with them and then uploaded it to the tube sites and how the entire process was.
00:16:31
Speaker
of trying to get it removed, you know, only replicated and now forever and ever, their lives have been affected by the fact that they have sexual imagery of them on the internet against their will.
00:16:41
Speaker
So Sex Work Twitter came out when Pornhub was trying to restructure their business model and get rid of all this rape and involuntary porn and created this conspiracy that this was some kind of Christian right-wing conspiracy against them.
00:17:00
Speaker
And they started doxing and harassing some of the women who came forward in the piece.
00:17:05
Speaker
They were explicitly going after them and saying that, oh, changing this is going to affect our revenue.
00:17:12
Speaker
This is just another way for them to criminalize sex workers and basically prioritizing their own pockets over the fact that
00:17:21
Speaker
a lot of people are feeling it's far past time for a Pornhub and the other tube sites to try and mitigate the type of content they put on their site.
00:17:31
Speaker
So that was a thing that did
Capitalist Motives in Sex Work
00:17:34
Speaker
happen.
00:17:34
Speaker
They were very, it was blue check sex work Twitter.
00:17:36
Speaker
So it wasn't just like random anonymous people.
00:17:38
Speaker
It was prominent sex workers on Twitter who were attacking Layla Micklewaite, who were tackling Nick Kristoff.
00:17:44
Speaker
And he was the author of the, he was attacking the author of the New York times article about the involuntary porn and Pornhub.
00:17:52
Speaker
And to me, they're a part of the problem.
00:17:56
Speaker
They're basically saying that like, oh, this is going to affect the way that we make money.
00:17:59
Speaker
So you guys can't do this because haha, what about us?
00:18:02
Speaker
Right.
00:18:02
Speaker
And so this tweet was taking issue with the fact that they've gone from just like advocating from basic protection for sex workers to this entitlement from this idea that we have to expand this industry, no matter how many other people it hurts to expand the industry.
00:18:19
Speaker
Yeah, that reminds me a lot.
00:18:20
Speaker
Okay, so for those of you who don't know, in Canada, we have the oil industry.
00:18:23
Speaker
This is mainly in Alberta.
00:18:25
Speaker
And so Albertans have this weird, like, pro-oil culture because a lot of them work in the oil industry.
00:18:32
Speaker
And so whenever there's any kind of environmental protection, like, hey, maybe we shouldn't, like, make the world...
00:18:40
Speaker
maybe we should fight climate change.
00:18:42
Speaker
Every single one of them, like there's this whole culture of like hating environmentalism in Alberta because they personally might lose money.
00:18:50
Speaker
And so, yeah, I just want to tell these people, like, just because you personally might lose money does not mean that these, you know, you gotta, you gotta take a step back and look at the bigger picture, have a bird's eye view of the thing.
00:19:02
Speaker
It's not just you personally being affected.
00:19:04
Speaker
Like it's affecting other people as well.
00:19:06
Speaker
Yeah, they've become, they're basically capitalists.
00:19:08
Speaker
And some of these people I suspect are sock puppet accounts of pimps, basically, or men.
00:19:14
Speaker
But like for the ones that were legit, like blue check verified, it's been very clear that it stopped being about protecting women in the sex industry and started being about protecting the almighty dollar and the ability for these women to make money.
00:19:28
Speaker
And no industry has the right to make money at the expense of anybody else.
00:19:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:33
Speaker
Sex industry, oil industry, doesn't matter what industry you're in.
00:19:37
Speaker
If it's hurting other people, there deserves to be regulation.
00:19:40
Speaker
Even if the people working in that industry might lose money, that's life.
00:19:43
Speaker
But they don't want to accept that.
00:19:44
Speaker
And so they've now considered a lot of these things a crusade.
00:19:47
Speaker
And they'll even make fun of us for being like, oh, like, you only, you care about for the children.
00:19:53
Speaker
Like, they'll put it in air quotes.
00:19:54
Speaker
Like, they'll make fun of you.
00:19:55
Speaker
Like, oh, you're doing this, quote, for the children.
00:19:58
Speaker
But actually, you just hate sex workers.
00:20:00
Speaker
Like, why is the idea of child safeguarding become a thing that people think is okay to mock?
00:20:05
Speaker
Like, how can you make fun of that and not realize you're the baddie?
00:20:09
Speaker
They tie it to right-wing Christian conservatism, and so then they can just say anything that's associated with that is bad, rather than taking it as merit by merit, argument by argument.
00:20:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's such a lazy argument.
00:20:21
Speaker
I see this all the time.
00:20:22
Speaker
It's like, oh, you're saying something that reminds me of, like, right-wing Christian alt-right people, and therefore you're exactly like them.
00:20:29
Speaker
It's just they're, all they're doing is just othering
00:20:32
Speaker
anyone they disagree with.
00:20:33
Speaker
And it's just making it easy for them to reject any kind of criticism, even legitimate criticism.
00:20:38
Speaker
Anyways, next tweet.
00:20:40
Speaker
Tweet number four, please respect the anonymity of women who speak out against the sex industry, but don't want their identity to be publicly disclosed.
00:20:47
Speaker
Don't put them in danger by attempting to dox or silence them or smear their reputation as part of some conspiracy group, which just goes back to what we said before is that they were trying to dox some of these girls and women who were being anonymous as part of the Pornhut story.
00:21:02
Speaker
But for a profession that prides itself on discretion, and even in places where it's legal, like the UK, you'll find a lot of sex workers choose to be anonymous.
00:21:13
Speaker
It's absolutely abhorrent that they would be doxing these women.
00:21:18
Speaker
Doxing victims of child porn.
00:21:20
Speaker
Like, that's so fucked up.
00:21:22
Speaker
Especially when they are raging.
00:21:24
Speaker
They start raging and freaking out if clients dox them.
00:21:27
Speaker
That's what really opened my eyes to like, okay, this entire feminist argument is actually being pushed by big porn because they tip their hand by being too transparent in their capitalist interests over the interest of the most vulnerable people in society, which actually does include
00:21:42
Speaker
sex workers at the bottom portion of society, as well as like just regular everyday women, civilian women who get caught up in porn because of involuntary pornography and rape and things like that.
00:21:53
Speaker
So their masks started to come off during the pandemic.
00:21:57
Speaker
It started to dawn on a bunch of us at FDS who've tangled with sex workers even on Reddit or sex work Twitter.
00:22:03
Speaker
that a lot of the arguments that they're making that are supposed to be quote unquote pro-feminist are really just trying to groom new women into the porn industry to protect their own capitalist interest and to expand their client base.
00:22:17
Speaker
It's just an industry.
00:22:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:19
Speaker
We talk all the time on the subreddit about how people cloak misogyny with like woke people.
00:22:25
Speaker
appropriating social justice language to oppress women.
00:22:30
Speaker
And misogyny is woke now.
00:22:33
Speaker
Oppressing women is woke now or is progressive.
00:22:35
Speaker
And so this is just another example of that.
00:22:38
Speaker
Like big porn appropriating feminism to advance their own industrial interests.
Marginalization in Sex Work: Choice vs Victimhood
00:22:44
Speaker
And then a lot of these women on Twitter who are, you know, the blue check, whatever, Twitter, they're like, they're complicit in that.
00:22:51
Speaker
They're like the Serena Joys or the Aunt Lydia's, you know, for those of you who watch The Handmaid's Tale.
00:22:57
Speaker
They're the people within the system who are like a step up.
00:23:01
Speaker
above, you know, the handmaidens or the other women.
00:23:04
Speaker
And so they want to maintain their position of relative privilege, I guess, or whatever tiny crumbs that they get from the patriarchy, they want to hold on to that.
00:23:11
Speaker
And so they dunk on other women to make themselves to, I guess, elevate themselves.
00:23:17
Speaker
So there's nothing feminist about it.
00:23:19
Speaker
Like, don't be fooled.
00:23:20
Speaker
So moving on tweet five, if you want to talk about your profession publicly, please fully disclose the hazards of the job as well as acknowledging when your privilege affords you atypical opportunities.
00:23:30
Speaker
Help civilian women considering sex work make a fully informed choice.
00:23:34
Speaker
Yeah, this was the tweet.
00:23:35
Speaker
That was the tweet that made me kind of look at myself and realize that I've been guilty of that as well.
00:23:42
Speaker
Like on the BDSM polyamory episode, I said something along the lines of like, oh, like those six months of the sugar baby was the, some of the best times of my life referring to things like the luxury travel stuff.
00:23:55
Speaker
And in hindsight, I now realize it's pretty irresponsible of me to say that.
00:23:58
Speaker
And so I want to take the opportunity in this, in this episode of the podcast to sort of
00:24:02
Speaker
clarify some of those statements, talk about some of the other drawbacks that I didn't talk about in that episode to give a more complete picture of any like girls listening so that they know that it's not all sunshine and rainbows.
00:24:13
Speaker
So we'll, we'll wrap up a tweet six and then we can go into your story.
00:24:17
Speaker
Uh, so a tweet six, finally remember that supporting women is a two way street.
00:24:21
Speaker
The expansion of the sex industry harms many more women than it helps.
00:24:24
Speaker
So those of you who've managed to build a successful platform, be sure to center marginalized women in conversations with your clients.
00:24:31
Speaker
Um,
00:24:32
Speaker
This pushing back on the idea that all sex workers are marginalized.
00:24:35
Speaker
There's more like women who are in the porn industry who are household names and a lot of other industries at this point.
00:24:42
Speaker
And they don't use their platform to talk about marginalized actors.
00:24:46
Speaker
sexually marginalized sex workers, like women who would otherwise be homeless if it was not for, or who are homeless if it was not for sex work.
00:24:55
Speaker
And the reason I say that is it seems like this group has been co-opting the victim language of truly marginalized people in order to never take responsibility for their content.
00:25:07
Speaker
Like just kicking it back to tweet one where they act like they have no agency over the content they produce.
00:25:13
Speaker
And when it's clearly a choice for a lot of these women,
00:25:17
Speaker
Like there was this one dominatrix that went off on us.
00:25:20
Speaker
She had an article where she talks about being in grad school and then like losing her.
00:25:25
Speaker
A professor withdrew from recommending her because she found out that she was doing dominatrix work on the side.
00:25:31
Speaker
And she's like, well, I had to because I had to pay my bills, etc, etc, etc.
00:25:35
Speaker
And it came across to me like, do you know you're not the only person that's ever had bills?
00:25:38
Speaker
Like, or you're not the only person who's ever had to take, you know what I'm saying?
00:25:41
Speaker
Like take time off to work.
00:25:43
Speaker
There's a lot of people who didn't have the opportunity to go to school in the first place, but the way that they use the language as if like they were forced into sex work by economic circumstances, when for most of them, like they made a conscious choice to do that to me, like is a way for them to not take responsibility for the content they produce or the choices that they make.
00:26:03
Speaker
And they compare themselves to women who are on the streets, a lot of whom came from foster care.
00:26:09
Speaker
Women who are generally in sex work, especially street sex work, they're basically the working homeless.
00:26:15
Speaker
Men's rights activists subreddits and groups always make a big deal about the fact that 70, 80% of men on the street are homeless.
00:26:22
Speaker
The homeless are men.
00:26:23
Speaker
But that's because most of the women get into sex work, get into prostitution specifically, and end up...
00:26:30
Speaker
having places to sleep off the street because it's very dangerous to sleep on the street.
00:26:34
Speaker
So they'll sleep, you know, in John's houses or they'll make enough money to just have a place to put over the roof of their head.
00:26:41
Speaker
But essentially they have the same kind of social issues or personal issues that prohibit them from getting gainful employment like a lot of the homeless men do, which is primarily mental illness, a lot of emotional trauma.
00:26:51
Speaker
A lot of these kids came from the foster care system.
00:26:53
Speaker
A lot of them are addiction, yes, chronically ill.
00:26:57
Speaker
And so a lot of these people get into sex work because of issues that they have that prevent them from getting other types of gainful employment.
00:27:05
Speaker
I do not like that this group of choosy choice sex workers who choose this as a profession are appropriating the language of marginalized people and then not platforming those marginalized people because it would probably cause them to lose work if they actually did because it's not sexy to think about like...
00:27:19
Speaker
drugged out former foster kids who are acting out their emotional trauma because they were so traumatized by their birth parents or being in the system.
00:27:29
Speaker
And so this tweet is basically pointing out that hypocrisy of just saying,
00:27:33
Speaker
Listen, there's a bunch of sex workers that have like 100K followers on Twitter, millions on OnlyFans, a bunch on Pornhub, on TikTok, and none of them talk about truly marginalized women.
00:27:47
Speaker
They don't because they fuck up their business model.
00:27:50
Speaker
It's actually worse than just not talking about marginalized women.
00:27:54
Speaker
They do talk about marginalized women, but they only do it in a way that is self-serving.
00:27:59
Speaker
And so I think it's very insulting to see a lot of these women who are making, you know, tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars on OnlyFans months on the month.
00:28:08
Speaker
On OnlyFans a month, you know, like the top 0.1% of OnlyFans, you know, comparing themselves to, you know, Thai women who were kidnapped off the side of the street to be sold as like a quote-unquote wife to like a Chinese billionaire or whatever, or comparing themselves to, say, like, you know, brothels in Bangladesh or whatever, like,
00:28:28
Speaker
These two things are not the same thing.
00:28:29
Speaker
So it's not only that they're not centering marginalized women, they're actually exploiting marginalized women by using their stories to escape criticism and escape accountability and as a way of perpetuating that industry that oppresses those marginalized women.
00:28:45
Speaker
So I actually think it's not...
00:28:47
Speaker
And so a lot of people will say on the subreddit, oh, like a lot of these even privileged sex workers are doing it because of trauma.
00:28:54
Speaker
Like maybe they were molested when they were a kid or like, you know, economic coercion, like that kind of stuff.
00:29:01
Speaker
Here's the thing.
00:29:01
Speaker
It's possible to be exploited and also to still be an asshole.
00:29:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:07
Speaker
I have this line on the subreddit that people seem to like a lot where it's possible for it to be someone who is exploited and also be an asshole.
00:29:15
Speaker
Being an asshole doesn't mean they're not exploited, but being exploited doesn't make you not an asshole, right?
00:29:21
Speaker
Like if you're exploited and you're doing harmful shit, you're still responsible for it.
00:29:27
Speaker
And the reason why this makes me so angry is because I've heard this line from people who have abused me in the past, where they will say, like, ex-boyfriends or whatever, being like, ooh, I had a hard childhood, or, you know, I've been through this, and oh, I had a bad day, that kind of stuff.
00:29:39
Speaker
Like, abusive people will literally say, like, I am doing this because I was traumatized too.
00:29:44
Speaker
And that doesn't make it okay, right?
00:29:46
Speaker
Like, it's when you're using your own abuse or your own trauma as a way of perpetuating abuse against other people, that needs to be called out.
00:29:53
Speaker
That is not an excuse.
00:29:54
Speaker
That is actually something that needs to be...
00:29:57
Speaker
that's actually even more of a reason to hold them accountable.
00:30:00
Speaker
You said it perfectly, Lela.
00:30:01
Speaker
Thank you.
00:30:02
Speaker
So these tweets, this series of tweets actually got me to think about myself and my own experience and thinking about how I've done some of those things as
Personal Experiences: Trauma and Misleading Narratives
00:30:10
Speaker
well.
00:30:10
Speaker
But before I go into that story, a quick message from our sponsor.
00:30:15
Speaker
Some of these things are so painful to think about.
00:30:18
Speaker
Like, it's actually crazy how the brain will block out certain negative memories just to sort of like help you get through the day, you know?
00:30:26
Speaker
And so when I look back on the sugar baby stuff, side note, like some people think that being a sugar baby isn't sex work.
00:30:34
Speaker
I think it is sex work.
00:30:36
Speaker
A lot of sugar babies will even say, like, I'm not a prostitute.
00:30:38
Speaker
Like, my sugar daddy pays for the privilege of my company.
00:30:42
Speaker
And if we have sex, it's because I want to and not because he's paying me to have sex with him.
00:30:48
Speaker
And that's a complete lie.
00:30:49
Speaker
Like, speaking from personal experience, like.
00:30:54
Speaker
You know, when you're with a sugar daddy, you don't have the option of saying no.
00:30:58
Speaker
And that's one of the first negative thing I wanted to talk about is it's very unsettling, actually, to be in a quote-unquote relationship with someone where you do not have the option of saying no.
00:31:10
Speaker
It would be like you see these marriages where the man wants...
00:31:13
Speaker
to have sex every day, but the woman for whatever reason doesn't want to, because she either isn't feeling emotional intimacy or whatever reason, right?
00:31:21
Speaker
She's, she's don't want to have sex.
00:31:22
Speaker
He wants to have sex.
00:31:23
Speaker
So he wants to compel her to have sex, a sugar baby relationship, a sugar baby, sugar daddy relationship is one of those relationships where she is compelled to have sex, whether she wants to or not.
00:31:33
Speaker
And so I actually get really annoyed when I see other sugar babies being like, Oh no, I can say no if I want, or, you know,
00:31:41
Speaker
this is my choice or I'm only having sex if I want to.
00:31:43
Speaker
I'm not a prostitute.
00:31:44
Speaker
That is a complete fucking lie.
00:31:45
Speaker
And it's actually dishonest to tell other girls that because young girls are going into that thinking that that's what the expectation is.
00:31:52
Speaker
And then they're confronted with the male clientele that they don't see it that way.
00:31:57
Speaker
Like they, they think that they're paying for sex and if you don't give them sex, they will fucking rape you.
00:32:02
Speaker
So I don't think that that is a responsible narrative to be spreading.
00:32:05
Speaker
So yeah, that's, that's the first thing I wanted to say is that
00:32:09
Speaker
Um, first of all, every single time I had to have, every single time I had to have sex with my sugar daddy, I had to be drunk because he was old and he was repulsive to me.
00:32:18
Speaker
And it was just impossible for me to, um,
00:32:23
Speaker
to, you know, I had to get the beer goggles on.
00:32:26
Speaker
Right.
00:32:27
Speaker
And of course, like 19 year old me was like, Oh, like free alcohol.
00:32:31
Speaker
Like I had to get sloppy drunk every single time we had to fuck.
00:32:34
Speaker
And the thing is, is he actually really loved that.
00:32:36
Speaker
Like he specifically enjoyed the me being sloppy drunk and having sex with me.
00:32:42
Speaker
And cause there were some days where like the next day I'd be like, Oh, I'm really sorry.
00:32:47
Speaker
Like I got like way too drunk last night.
00:32:49
Speaker
You know, that's was irresponsible of me.
00:32:51
Speaker
And he said, um,
00:32:55
Speaker
I'm actually like cringing and it's hard for me to say this out loud because he would quote unquote reassure me by saying that, Oh no, I actually love it when you get sloppy drunk like that.
00:33:06
Speaker
In fact, I have this fantasy, you know, every time I go out and I see all these like, you know, college age, like young, beautiful American girls getting, you know, super drunk.
00:33:16
Speaker
I always fantasize about being able to like pick one of them up and like date rape them.
00:33:20
Speaker
He didn't use the word date rape.
00:33:21
Speaker
Right.
00:33:22
Speaker
But that's what he's describing.
00:33:23
Speaker
He's describing, like, I would love to be able to pick up a drunk tourist and have sex with her when she's sloppy, drunk, and won't remember and take advantage of her.
00:33:32
Speaker
And so, like, the fact that he told me, like, that is his kink, that is his fantasy, and he liked the fact that he could act out that fantasy without any consequences with me.
00:33:41
Speaker
Side note, like, I'm not American.
00:33:42
Speaker
I'm Canadian.
00:33:43
Speaker
That's the most offensive thing in all of this is he called me American when I'm Canadian.
00:33:47
Speaker
LAUGHTER
00:33:49
Speaker
anyways but um hey i don't blame you it's pretty trash over here right now yeah not all the time but right now specifically yeah so he's like sorry if people think it's inappropriate that i'm laughing i don't know i use you i use humor to sort of get through the trauma um but yeah anyway so so i use humor to cope with trauma so when people say i'm funny i'm like that's because i'm dying inside i'm kidding anyways um
00:34:16
Speaker
Anyway, so yeah, he told me, like, oh no, I actually love when you get sloppy drunk because it's my fantasy to, like, pick up drunk tourist women and, like, date rape them.
00:34:25
Speaker
And so I'm glad that I can do that and pay for your silence.
00:34:28
Speaker
Like, you know, so... And the fact... It's very fucking predatory.
00:34:34
Speaker
And that's what I mean about, like...
00:34:37
Speaker
You know, in the tweet that said, stop making content that, you know, normalizes things like rape or abuse or misogyny and that kind of stuff.
00:34:46
Speaker
Like, it's really embarrassing for me to look back.
00:34:50
Speaker
And when he told me that, I thought that was a compliment.
00:34:53
Speaker
Like...
00:34:54
Speaker
That's what I'm referring to when I'm saying your porn type.
00:34:57
Speaker
Like, when a guy says that you are his porn type, that is not a compliment to you personally.
00:35:03
Speaker
That's, like, a statement of his own depravity, and it is fucked up to participate in that and to be complicit in that.
00:35:11
Speaker
And I'm sure a lot of sex workers, if they hear this, they'll think like, oh, like you're actually doing a service because by having sex with you when you quote unquote consented and, you know, then he's not going to be out there doing that to like women in real life.
00:35:24
Speaker
I mean, first of all, there's no guarantee that he wasn't actually doing this to women in real life.
00:35:28
Speaker
He probably was.
00:35:30
Speaker
You know, it happens all the time.
00:35:31
Speaker
Like drunk tourists getting picked up by men and being...
00:35:34
Speaker
In some cases, there was that woman in Australia who got strangled because she was a tourist and she got picked up and she died.
00:35:46
Speaker
These sorts of things do happen and it doesn't always end well.
00:35:49
Speaker
In fact, a lot of times it does end very badly for women, right?
00:35:53
Speaker
I'm embarrassed to look back on that and realize that I was complicit in that.
00:35:58
Speaker
Um, so what are some, yeah.
00:35:59
Speaker
So what are, there's other things that happen like sexually that that's like too hard to think about, but that I won't get into, but that was the main one that I wanted to draw attention to.
00:36:09
Speaker
Um, but anyways, I have some notes here.
00:36:13
Speaker
Um, I wanted to talk about like coping and how so much of, um,
00:36:21
Speaker
the lies that we sort of tell ourselves about these things and how the brain sort of tricks you into being okay and adapting to unpleasant situations.
00:36:31
Speaker
Like, for example, when we had our Disney episode, there were a lot of people commenting how Beauty and the Beast originally was a story from, like, the 17th century that was told to
00:36:43
Speaker
you know, aristocratic girls who are about to be married off to old men as a way of helping them, you know, they see themselves as some heroine who's putting up with a beast for the sake of her dad.
00:36:54
Speaker
And so it's, we tell ourselves these fantasies or these stories as a way of sort of
00:37:00
Speaker
making ourselves okay with the fact that we're in a fucked up situation or the fact that the world is fucked up, right?
00:37:07
Speaker
And so that's what, when we're talking, when we at FDS are calling out these narratives, what we call narratives, media narratives, propaganda, that's what we're talking about.
00:37:14
Speaker
We're talking about these sort of stories that we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel good about something bad.
00:37:20
Speaker
Like, just because we tell ourselves a story about something bad to make ourselves feel good about it doesn't mean that it's good.
00:37:26
Speaker
It's like, it's actually very Orwellian.
00:37:28
Speaker
Like, you know, it's not the bad thing that's bad, it's the way we think about the bad thing that's bad.
00:37:33
Speaker
So if we change the way that we think about the bad thing, that will make the bad thing good.
00:37:38
Speaker
Which is not how reality works, right?
00:37:41
Speaker
And what's disappointing about it is how much of it is coming from so-called feminist media.
00:37:46
Speaker
I would expect that from media that was run by men or fairly neutral.
00:37:50
Speaker
But I've seen prominent feminists push these narratives.
00:37:53
Speaker
And you have to wonder where their motivations are.
00:37:56
Speaker
I mean, we're at the point now where we have to argue against feminists who are focused on the idea that the sex offender registry isn't fair to men who are on it.
00:38:03
Speaker
And I'm like...
00:38:04
Speaker
why is this a feminist concern, right?
00:38:07
Speaker
Like who, who dropped in and create all these boundaries and rules about what feminism should be that so often seems to be cope or not actually beneficial to women.
00:38:18
Speaker
And you can't help but feel that there's like either male mouthpieces behind this, or they're just pick me's that basically take everything that men say at face value and then rationalize it similar to like the beauty and the beast story.
00:38:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:30
Speaker
And so a good example of this for any listeners here, I really recommend going on YouTube and looking up Dr. Romani.
00:38:36
Speaker
The title of this video is, How Does Being With a Narcissist Affect Your Body, Mind, and Soul?
00:38:42
Speaker
And even though it's about narcissism, I think what she describes in this video is very apt at describing how your body and your mind responds to any kind of abuse or...
00:38:52
Speaker
unpleasant situation.
00:38:54
Speaker
And so in this video, she talks about how the mind is very flexible.
00:38:57
Speaker
It will rationalize and make excuses and go through all these crazy mental gymnastics when you're going through something traumatic as a way of making yourself feel okay about it.
00:39:06
Speaker
But the thing is, the body is more honest.
00:39:09
Speaker
And so your trauma will manifest itself as physical illness.
00:39:13
Speaker
And then the soul, she talks about the soul, the idea of the soul, the psyche, you know, some people are critical about the idea of a soul to begin with, but
00:39:20
Speaker
what she refers to the soul is your sort of essential self.
00:39:24
Speaker
And she talks about how the soul will respond.
00:39:27
Speaker
It's also honest in some ways like the body, but it's also dishonest in some ways like the mind and how the soul, when you're enduring a traumatic experience, you will lose authenticity.
00:39:36
Speaker
You will lose your essential self to force yourself to adapt to a bad situation.
00:39:41
Speaker
And so that's
00:39:42
Speaker
Really what I see a lot in sex work Twitter is that they're so fucking phony.
00:39:49
Speaker
That's really what it is, is they are, they lose authenticity.
00:39:53
Speaker
Someone pointedly wrote on the subreddit about how a lot of it is just because they're trying to get money.
00:40:00
Speaker
So they have to present the image of the fantasy so that men will want to be with them.
00:40:05
Speaker
And I even saw a sex worker on Twitter who didn't like our big dick episode.
00:40:11
Speaker
It was like, she basically made an all dicks matter argument.
00:40:15
Speaker
And it was like, it's not okay to body shame men and that like little dicks are just can be just as good as medium sized dicks or curved dicks or whatever.
00:40:23
Speaker
And I was like, I know you have to say that you like all types of dicks so that men will purchase your services.
00:40:28
Speaker
But I find it hard to believe you have zero penis preferences.
00:40:33
Speaker
If you've been fucking a lot of guys, you have got to have some preferences there.
00:40:38
Speaker
But, you know, it messes up their business model to admit that.
00:40:41
Speaker
So they have to pretend that, like...
00:40:43
Speaker
I can take any dick anywhere.
00:40:45
Speaker
They're in denial, right?
00:40:46
Speaker
Like that's exactly it.
00:40:47
Speaker
They're in denial about their situation because they're in a business where you're not allowed to have any choice.
00:40:53
Speaker
You're not allowed to say no because you're getting money for it.
00:40:55
Speaker
So you have to be okay with whatever.
00:40:58
Speaker
And so you tell yourself like, oh, I actually love all of this.
00:41:01
Speaker
I don't have any preferences.
00:41:03
Speaker
you almost like compensate for the fact that you don't have any choices by saying this is my choice.
00:41:08
Speaker
It's very, like I said, it's very Orwellian.
00:41:10
Speaker
But anyways, so, but back to the mind, body, soul comparison.
00:41:14
Speaker
And so, yeah, like the fucked up thing is like in the moment, you don't even realize that you're being traumatized.
00:41:20
Speaker
Like, like I said, 19 year old me was like, Oh, like free alcohol.
00:41:23
Speaker
Like, you know, I don't even realize that I'm,
00:41:26
Speaker
I'm doing things that I'm going to be paying for emotionally later.
00:41:30
Speaker
And so what happened after that is like after the sugar baby experience, I just, I fell into a really deep depression and was very, I had a lot of like anxiety and was having panic attacks.
00:41:42
Speaker
I started binge eating.
00:41:43
Speaker
And so I gained a lot of weight.
00:41:45
Speaker
You know, I talked about weight.
00:41:46
Speaker
I talk about weight loss, weight gain and stuff on the subreddit a lot.
00:41:49
Speaker
And I'm not saying that to shame other women.
00:41:51
Speaker
It's, it's informed by my own experiences, my own trauma in that like,
00:41:56
Speaker
a lot of disordered eating that women have is caused by trauma.
00:42:01
Speaker
And it's something that, you know, it doesn't mean that we should be celebrating disordered eating.
00:42:06
Speaker
We should be acknowledging the trauma and, you know, addressing the root cause.
00:42:13
Speaker
But anyway, so yeah, I gained a ton of weight.
00:42:15
Speaker
You know, I was feeling like shit for like years after the fact.
00:42:18
Speaker
And so looking back on that, I'm asking myself, like,
00:42:21
Speaker
Was those six months of luxury travel and having a nice apartment and designer purses and all that shit, was that worth the years of therapy and subsequent abuse that I tolerated from men for years after the fact?
00:42:36
Speaker
Was it worth it?
00:42:37
Speaker
No, absolutely not.
00:42:39
Speaker
In the moment, it was fun.
00:42:40
Speaker
But then after the fact, you know, your body keeps score.
00:42:43
Speaker
There's Gavin, that was it Gavin DeBecker who wrote the body keeps score?
00:42:46
Speaker
Or is that a different one?
00:42:48
Speaker
I think that's a different author.
00:42:49
Speaker
Hold on a sec.
00:42:49
Speaker
Let me Google this.
00:42:51
Speaker
Gavin DeBecker wrote a different one, I think.
00:42:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:53
Speaker
So the body keeps score.
00:42:56
Speaker
Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk.
00:43:00
Speaker
So even if your mind is in denial about something, the body keeps score, right?
00:43:05
Speaker
Like you end up internalizing that trauma, whether you are aware of it or not.
00:43:10
Speaker
And so everything I quote unquote got out of that experience, what I thought was glamorous or, you know, I thought I was like so much better and like owning my ex-boyfriend who wanted to do poly by doing this stuff.
00:43:23
Speaker
But, um,
00:43:25
Speaker
Anything I got out of it, I paid back tenfold and, you know, therapy bills and putting up.
00:43:29
Speaker
And here's the thing, like, in all of my subsequent relationships, I put up with so much shit for men because I thought I didn't deserve better.
00:43:38
Speaker
And here's the thing.
00:43:39
Speaker
I was one of the privileged ones.
00:43:40
Speaker
The fact that I am even able to afford therapy is itself privilege.
00:43:44
Speaker
There's so many former sex workers walking around out there with unresolved trauma who don't even know that they're walking around with unresolved trauma.
00:43:51
Speaker
And that pain is manifesting itself in other ways.
00:43:55
Speaker
Could be worse.
00:43:56
Speaker
You could be American and like not have any health care.
00:43:58
Speaker
Yeah, true.
00:43:59
Speaker
Like, so.
00:44:00
Speaker
So, yeah, it definitely could be worse.
00:44:04
Speaker
We're so horrible.
00:44:06
Speaker
But no, even in Canada, therapy is not free.
00:44:08
Speaker
Like you mentioned in another episode how like dentists are luxury bones.
00:44:12
Speaker
Luxury bones.
00:44:13
Speaker
Luxury bones.
00:44:14
Speaker
Teeth.
00:44:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:15
Speaker
No, we have the same thing in Canada.
00:44:16
Speaker
Like dental care is not included and drugs like pharmaceuticals are not included in our health plan.
00:44:21
Speaker
Right.
00:44:21
Speaker
So all of those.
00:44:22
Speaker
Oh, we get free.
00:44:23
Speaker
Oh, we get free therapy in the UK.
00:44:26
Speaker
That's the one thing that we've won against Canada and the US.
00:44:28
Speaker
Yes.
00:44:29
Speaker
I hate you.
00:44:29
Speaker
No, I'm kidding.
00:44:30
Speaker
No, I'm kidding.
00:44:30
Speaker
I don't know.
00:44:31
Speaker
I want what you have.
00:44:33
Speaker
I want anything at all.
00:44:38
Speaker
Yeah, so I ended up having to pay out of pocket to just sort of get my shit together mentally, emotionally.
00:44:45
Speaker
And I was lucky that... Maybe not lucky, I don't know, because I had a good paying job at the time.
00:44:52
Speaker
But yeah, that's a privilege that a lot of people are not afforded.
00:44:55
Speaker
And so a lot of them don't go to therapy, and they just walk around in this unresolved trauma and find all these ways of coping.
00:45:01
Speaker
And a lot of times their coping mechanisms end up harming other women.
00:45:04
Speaker
That's what I mean about these fantasies and these...
00:45:07
Speaker
fairy tales that we tell ourselves to cope with our trauma when we go on social media and say, Oh, like being a sugar baby is great.
00:45:15
Speaker
And like, look at my amazing luxury apartment and look at all my traveling experience.
00:45:18
Speaker
Oh my gosh, I love this.
00:45:19
Speaker
Like, but not mentioning that you're letting like gross men, like fuck you in the ass and you have to be drunk every single time.
00:45:25
Speaker
Like that's, that's like a dark reality that most people don't want to acknowledge on social media.
00:45:32
Speaker
And I don't blame them for not wanting to share it because it's hard to think about.
00:45:34
Speaker
A lot of people have a hard time even thinking about it in the first place.
00:45:37
Speaker
Like, even me, I had to think long and hard if I even wanted to talk about this.
Challenges of Former Sex Workers
00:45:42
Speaker
But I decided it was worth it in the end.
00:45:44
Speaker
Oh, and the other, another privilege I want to point is I only had one John.
00:45:47
Speaker
Like...
00:45:48
Speaker
All of this trauma that happened in the years after that was after one man.
00:45:53
Speaker
One man caused that trauma.
00:45:55
Speaker
So I can't even fathom how much worse it would be for some women out there who are seeing more than one John a day for, like, months or years even, right?
00:46:02
Speaker
And how much worse it must be for women who have it worse off than me.
00:46:06
Speaker
My advice for teenage girls out there who are...
00:46:10
Speaker
you know, on YouTube or TikTok and are seeing these girls flaunt their sugar baby lifestyle is that that's only half of the narrative.
00:46:18
Speaker
There's the other half, which is the reality that they're not saying, don't do it.
00:46:23
Speaker
It's not fucking worth it.
00:46:24
Speaker
In the moment, you think it's awesome, but you don't even know that you're going to be paying for it later.
00:46:30
Speaker
And the house always wins.
00:46:31
Speaker
That's the other part of this narrative.
00:46:33
Speaker
And you've kind of seen that happen the last 10 to 15 years is there's been a bunch of these prominent porn stars or sex workers who have gone on like, for lack of a better term, like a whole redemption tour.
00:46:44
Speaker
We're like after they're done with their quote unquote career, they come out and then admit about how much horrific shit they were putting up with behind.
00:46:51
Speaker
closed doors and then sort of repaint the narrative to show where they were exploited and how they were victimized.
00:46:56
Speaker
And that's been people like Holly Madison and Mia Khalifa and Jenna Jameson, people who were really big porn stars in the nineties or at least two thousands.
00:47:04
Speaker
And then they start to go to therapy and unpack how they ended up in the sex industry.
00:47:09
Speaker
And then you find out from people like Holly Madison that like half was docking their pay.
00:47:13
Speaker
So they wouldn't save money, like all the control he had over their lives.
00:47:16
Speaker
And
00:47:17
Speaker
And you have to understand that this entire industry is run by men.
00:47:21
Speaker
So you can't win in an industry that is made for and by men because the house always wins.
00:47:27
Speaker
So as much as like a lot of these women feel like the money they're making now is going to be okay, like patriarchy finds a way to reinforce itself.
00:47:35
Speaker
Whether that means that later...
00:47:37
Speaker
Later, you can't find a job because you did this porn or you're never able to save money because someone like Hef takes most of your savings.
00:47:47
Speaker
By the time you leave, you're still as penniless as you were when you came into the Playboy Mansion.
00:47:52
Speaker
Nia Khalifa has been complaining about the fact that these other companies own her images.
00:47:56
Speaker
She has no control.
00:47:57
Speaker
over all of her images that she did porn
Control and Misogyny in the Sex Work Industry
00:48:00
Speaker
in.
00:48:00
Speaker
And specifically, she wore a hijab during some of it, which caused a couple of different countries to ban her, a couple of Muslim countries to outright ban her.
00:48:07
Speaker
So she can't even go to visit family and friends in Muslim countries anymore.
00:48:11
Speaker
So it's one of those things where...
00:48:14
Speaker
The lure of the money and the temporary glamour is just bait.
00:48:19
Speaker
It's a bait to get you on a hook that's going to eat you up and chew you out.
00:48:24
Speaker
And I don't know that that's capable of changing as long as men are the primary customer base, which they likely always will because of how much more motivated they are by this stuff, and as long as men control the industry, which so far they always have.
00:48:38
Speaker
When Layla Micklewaite published all the executives behind Pornhub, every single one of them, some like middle-aged, gross-looking scrote.
00:48:45
Speaker
They're all men.
00:48:47
Speaker
OnlyFans, the same.
00:48:49
Speaker
Yeah, the owners are the biggest porn sites.
00:48:52
Speaker
Yeah, the money trail always goes back to men.
00:48:55
Speaker
Always.
00:48:56
Speaker
And even, I think, do you remember when Pornhub had an account that was like Pornhub Katie and everyone assumed it was a woman?
00:49:03
Speaker
Apparently it was run by a man.
00:49:05
Speaker
I'm sure.
00:49:06
Speaker
Oh, I'm sure.
00:49:06
Speaker
They just put a woman so it wouldn't seem as horrific.
00:49:09
Speaker
Because some of the stuff that I can't would come out with, it was very, very, very, very anti-woman.
00:49:15
Speaker
And I think it came out a few years ago that it was actually a man.
00:49:18
Speaker
Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all.
00:49:19
Speaker
They were going on Reddit specifically and discrediting people who were talking about the traffic on the site prior to Layla Micklewaite really getting involved in the fight against Boring Hadle.
00:49:29
Speaker
Reddit literally had like Pornhub crawlers that would go there and then try to call all the people who were talking about the involuntary porn liars.
00:49:36
Speaker
Again, it was it was pretty transparent.
00:49:38
Speaker
It's fucked up to me that people managed to like Pornhub had for a while there had a reputation as like a wholesome company.
00:49:45
Speaker
Right.
00:49:46
Speaker
And so this narrative of like the, the porn site with the heart of gold is, uh, it's just marketing.
00:49:54
Speaker
It's just lies.
00:49:55
Speaker
It's just brainwashing.
00:49:57
Speaker
And so that's what I think about whenever I see these women talking about like the, Oh, I'm like the only fancy girl, the sugar baby with the heart of gold and everything's so wholesome and fun and amazing.
00:50:05
Speaker
And, and knowing that that's part of the manipulation.
00:50:08
Speaker
And just, and even like with sex work, I think, you know, what you,
00:50:11
Speaker
For example, what you were saying about the house always winning, it's also the narrative that sex workers work for themselves.
00:50:19
Speaker
You know, I can make X amount of money in, you know, I can make, you know, what was it?
00:50:25
Speaker
What did one of them say?
00:50:25
Speaker
Like, I can make in a week what you make in four years.
00:50:28
Speaker
All sorts of...
00:50:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:31
Speaker
One of our mods did the math on that and was like, the median US income is like 30,000 a year.
00:50:36
Speaker
And so you're really saying you make $120,000 a week?
00:50:40
Speaker
Like that's 6 million, 6 million a year.
00:50:42
Speaker
Like that's not, nobody makes that much money from sex work except for porn site owners.
00:50:47
Speaker
Exactly, exactly.
00:50:49
Speaker
And it's almost like an MLM, you know, recruitment propaganda because, because it's like, again, but you're not really working for yourself though, are they?
00:50:56
Speaker
You're working for men.
00:50:58
Speaker
The MLM is a great comparison, actually.
00:51:00
Speaker
OnlyFans is literally an MLM.
00:51:02
Speaker
And so you have to understand a lot of these women who are going there.
00:51:04
Speaker
It's a pyramid scheme.
00:51:05
Speaker
It literally is a pyramid scheme.
00:51:07
Speaker
So all these women going on saying, oh my gosh, like, look, all this money I made from OnlyFans.
00:51:12
Speaker
It's exactly the same as all those people being like, oh my gosh, look at this mansion I bought because I work for Amway.
00:51:17
Speaker
you know, like sign up for my code.
00:51:19
Speaker
Like all these OnlyFans chicks will say like, Oh, make sure to sign up for my, with using my code or something like that.
00:51:25
Speaker
And they make money from anyone who signs up with that code.
00:51:29
Speaker
Right.
00:51:29
Speaker
So it's important to understand these financial incentives.
00:51:32
Speaker
You know, when you're financially incentivized to do something like that, it's not always, uh, it's not always, uh, it's not always a good thing, but yeah.
00:51:41
Speaker
Anyways, but, but I want to go back a bit to
00:51:44
Speaker
some of the responses, because what the, what I was shocked to see is how many women were saying like, Oh, you just hate sex workers.
00:51:51
Speaker
Like, Oh, you're just othering sex workers.
00:51:53
Speaker
You just think that you're better than us.
00:51:55
Speaker
Like you're whore phobic.
00:51:56
Speaker
I, what the fuck is whore phobic by the way, this just seems like another made up woke word that I have no idea what they're talking about.
00:52:04
Speaker
Like what is whore?
00:52:05
Speaker
What they're talking about when they say whore phobia is like, they're talking about something that exists, but I think that their analysis of it is wrong, but we'll get into that later.
Empowerment Narratives: Misguided or Patriarchal?
00:52:14
Speaker
But they're saying, oh, you just hate sex workers.
00:52:16
Speaker
That's why you're criticizing the porn industry.
00:52:18
Speaker
And it's the opposite.
00:52:21
Speaker
I'm not othering them.
00:52:23
Speaker
I don't actually think that we're better than sex workers.
00:52:27
Speaker
It's the opposite, actually.
00:52:29
Speaker
When I see a sex worker, I think, she's not all that different from me.
00:52:33
Speaker
Right?
00:52:33
Speaker
Like, she's one of my sisters.
00:52:36
Speaker
And so when FDS criticizes the sex industry, it's not because we think sex workers are subhuman, it's because we recognize their humanity.
00:52:43
Speaker
And so things like OnlyFans, the normalization of porn and sex work and all that, it's traumatizing and it's weakening an entire generation of women.
00:52:51
Speaker
And as feminists, we need to fight this.
00:52:53
Speaker
This is not something that is in women's best interests.
00:52:57
Speaker
It seemed like they turned it around on us.
00:52:58
Speaker
Like we're dehumanizing them by having a problem with the dehumanizing porn.
00:53:03
Speaker
And to be fair, generally we attack men on this.
00:53:05
Speaker
And generally, like if you see our subreddit, it's pretty much entirely us dragging the fuck out of men.
00:53:11
Speaker
This is one of the rare tweets that we had addressed
00:53:13
Speaker
directly to sex workers.
00:53:14
Speaker
Like generally we critique men or we critique the way the media spins the narrative, but we have critiqued sex workers in the past.
00:53:22
Speaker
We think are basically engaging in dishonest practices that are contributing to these specific types of abuse.
00:53:29
Speaker
So that's essentially their issue is that like the ones that can be held accountable and the ones that are choosing to do this, they have a problem with that.
00:53:37
Speaker
Again, like you said, it could be denial.
00:53:38
Speaker
It could be them acting out trauma.
00:53:41
Speaker
But I also think some of it, and actually we can verify that definitely some of it, has been from media grooming them to think like they're doing some kind of noble feminist fight by doing all this fucked up porn.
00:53:51
Speaker
And that is a really, really dangerous place for people.
00:53:54
Speaker
quote unquote feminism to be or the focus on female empowerment because you're never going to find empowerment
00:54:02
Speaker
at the end of man's penis, it's just not going to happen.
00:54:05
Speaker
Like, and the way that they keep trying to frame everything, like if we just become as sexual, or if we use the male model of sexual, uh, use the male model of how sexual expression should be, then we're making progress and not understanding that we are betraying ourselves every time we try to fit into a patriarchal idea of what women should be as sex objects.
00:54:27
Speaker
Right.
00:54:28
Speaker
Instead of focusing on what we want as women, how to focus, how to focus our sexual wants and needs, they're focusing, uh, making every type of depravity that men like, okay.
00:54:39
Speaker
And mainstream and saying that, like, if you criticize any of this, then you hate sex workers.
00:54:44
Speaker
That's what they're hiding behind.
00:54:46
Speaker
Because obviously if we say like, like we've said multiple times,
00:54:50
Speaker
Look at the type of men who like to choke women out as sex and look at the type of men who are attracted to these abuse kinks.
00:54:56
Speaker
It's like they're almost acting like pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
00:54:59
Speaker
Like, look at the pretty lady in the front who's telling you that you're like discriminating against her by like criticizing this type of porn rather than understanding that the reason why that we're criticizing this stuff is because we know the creeps that are behind it and why they are sexually attracted to this thing and what the long term damage is of feeding women into this kind of machine for male depravity.
00:55:18
Speaker
Exactly.
00:55:19
Speaker
It's not dehumanizing to sex workers to be against the way that men are dehumanizing them.
00:55:26
Speaker
And they say all the time, like, oh, you're just hating on sex workers.
00:55:28
Speaker
You're never actually criticizing men.
00:55:30
Speaker
Bullshit.
00:55:30
Speaker
Like, if you know anything about us and what we do, we drag men all the fucking time.
00:55:36
Speaker
You know who we are, right?
00:55:37
Speaker
What are you talking about?
00:55:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:39
Speaker
You better look us up.
00:55:40
Speaker
You better do your research.
00:55:42
Speaker
But at the same time, women are complicit in this.
00:55:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:46
Speaker
And I also think, like, it's so funny because there's different people who say, like, they're unhappy with the amount that we criticize women.
00:55:54
Speaker
Like, some will say that we should criticize women more.
00:55:57
Speaker
Or some people will say we don't criticize women enough.
00:56:00
Speaker
And so, yeah, like, we don't believe in blaming women for everything.
00:56:03
Speaker
And we acknowledge that, you know, patriarchy will often, like...
00:56:07
Speaker
often turn things around and like blame women for things that men do.
00:56:11
Speaker
But at the same time, we're kidding ourselves if we're pretending like there's no such thing as women who are complicit in patriarchy.
00:56:17
Speaker
It's like the female equivalent of like an Uncle Tom, right?
00:56:20
Speaker
You know, women like Ghislaine Maxwell, for example, who are complicit.
00:56:24
Speaker
And a lot of sex traffickers are women.
00:56:28
Speaker
Like a lot of madams, like a lot of people who own these brothels in third world countries or whatever are
00:56:33
Speaker
are women even first world countries as well they're women even first world countries yeah so like we're kidding ourselves if we're pretending like women are always innocent victims and are always above reproach and have no agency and have no agency and that's the thing i find so fucked up about this whole conversation is so many will be oh i'm
00:56:53
Speaker
this is my choice.
00:56:54
Speaker
I'm doing this.
00:56:54
Speaker
This is empowering.
Nuanced Conversations on Sex Work and Feminism
00:56:56
Speaker
And then the moment you try to hold them accountable for those quote unquote choices, they go, Oh, I have no agency.
00:57:00
Speaker
I'm a victim.
00:57:01
Speaker
I'm marginalized and so on.
00:57:02
Speaker
So which is it?
00:57:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:04
Speaker
I mean, both of those groups exist.
00:57:06
Speaker
It's just that the, the, the former group is co-opting the narrative of the latter group to avoid accountability rather than like, and they're not even having the courtesy.
00:57:13
Speaker
A lot of them to actually listen to the actual women or platform women who are actually marginalized.
00:57:19
Speaker
Yeah, because it doesn't fit their narrative, right?
00:57:21
Speaker
So it's so... There's so many layers to this, and it's so insidious, and it's hard to have these conversations on the internet.
00:57:28
Speaker
Like, it's impossible to have nuanced conversations on the internet.
00:57:30
Speaker
I don't know.
00:57:31
Speaker
Like, with the... What is it?
00:57:32
Speaker
280 character limit on Twitter, you know?
00:57:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:36
Speaker
Our Twitter manager hung in there, but like, yeah, it's very hard to have this conversation in like a massive pile on like it is on the Twitter and also explore the nuances like we are right now.
00:57:48
Speaker
Right.
00:57:48
Speaker
And that's why sometimes I think when we write stuff, it comes across like very blunt.
00:57:52
Speaker
Right.
00:57:52
Speaker
And very cutting to people because you only have so many characters and we got to make a point.
00:57:58
Speaker
It annoys me when I write, I take the time, take a few hours to write a multi-paragraph analysis of multiple angles and talk about different perspectives and all that and take the time to really try to make it as nuanced as possible and to take different people's perspectives in your account.
00:58:16
Speaker
And then it gets cross-posted to some of the FDS hate subs, oh, you just hate sex workers.
00:58:22
Speaker
It's so fucking frustrating to see these being turned around on us.
00:58:25
Speaker
I don't know.
00:58:26
Speaker
The sub-righteds that are run by men, they obviously have a vested interest in misunderstanding this, misunderstanding what we're saying here.
00:58:32
Speaker
Yeah, they're committed to misunderstanding us, yeah.
00:58:35
Speaker
Right, it's deliberate.
00:58:36
Speaker
The other ones, I think it's just because...
00:58:39
Speaker
So it's hard to have someone like us just like straight up put a torpedo through their entire worldview that's been carefully crafted by media.
00:58:46
Speaker
Right.
00:58:47
Speaker
So it's easy to just be like, oh, well, they're swurfs, you know, or they're like just put a label on it and not like actually understand the argument that we're making.
00:58:54
Speaker
But it actually is very, very concerning.
00:58:56
Speaker
The slow creeping, quote unquote, normalization of sex work that's happening.
00:59:00
Speaker
I've even seen narratives that said that like we have to support sex work to support like people of color.
00:59:05
Speaker
Like this is the other thing that's been driving me kind of nuts about like the woke left in general.
00:59:10
Speaker
But a lot of times they put these like convoluted justifications for stuff.
00:59:13
Speaker
And then rather than having like an actual argument, they'll just like have it said by a person of color or have it said by an LGBTQ member.
00:59:21
Speaker
And then somehow that justifies itself.
00:59:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:23
Speaker
But a lot of times they're pushing things that actually might significantly hurt people of color, LGBTQ people, but they just like have, you know,
00:59:32
Speaker
people like that who may not know any better, pair it with the ideas that they're saying, and then say like, well, obviously this is going to help people of color, but it's never explained how or why.
00:59:42
Speaker
And this is when you hear, when you hear, especially like women of color feminists go off on quote unquote white feminism or liberal, like more often liberal feminism, but sometimes radical feminine gets caught up in that too, but just quote unquote white feminism is because so often the narratives that are started by women of color think ideas like intersectionality,
01:00:01
Speaker
White feminists kind of take it and then like, I don't know, chop, screw, flip it and reverse it to something that benefits primarily them and then say they're doing it for people of color.
01:00:11
Speaker
But when you look at the tangible results, it often doesn't.
01:00:14
Speaker
And that's where that's where that rift comes in.
01:00:17
Speaker
This could be an episode on its own.
01:00:20
Speaker
Oh, man.
01:00:20
Speaker
Yeah, I could talk for hours about, like, you know, using women of colour as, like, puppets to advance their own fucking non... Their own white interests, right?
Exploitation Under Empowerment Narratives
01:00:31
Speaker
So another example of this phenomenon you're talking about is, like, I've seen some takes on Twitter, on sex work Twitter, like...
01:00:38
Speaker
It was like being opposed to the sex industry is ableist because there are some disabled women out there who use sex work to earn an income.
01:00:48
Speaker
Oh my gosh.
01:00:49
Speaker
Yeah.
01:00:50
Speaker
And I think that is horrifying to imply that like the only thing that disabled women are good for is sucking dick.
01:00:57
Speaker
So sad.
01:00:58
Speaker
Oh, this reminds me.
01:01:00
Speaker
This reminds me.
01:01:01
Speaker
I wanted to talk about this in the beginning.
01:01:03
Speaker
There used to be this website called bumfights.com.
01:01:06
Speaker
Have you ever heard of that?
01:01:08
Speaker
Vaguely, yeah.
01:01:09
Speaker
So from the early 2000s, there was like this website and a DVD series called bumfights.com.
01:01:14
Speaker
It was like a prank series.
01:01:16
Speaker
But what they would do is they would pay homeless men to do bumfights.
01:01:21
Speaker
dangerous and dehumanizing things.
01:01:23
Speaker
They would pay them to drink glass cleaner.
01:01:25
Speaker
They would pay them to, they put each other in a shopping cart and like wheel them out in the middle of traffic.
01:01:30
Speaker
They'd pay them to stab themselves.
01:01:32
Speaker
They pay them into getting a bare knuckle bloody fights with other people.
01:01:36
Speaker
It was really, really, really brutal and dehumanizing to these, obviously a lot of times drug addicted, mentally ill homeless men.
01:01:43
Speaker
And there was like an uproar around this because people were like, this is clearly inhumane.
01:01:48
Speaker
It's not okay, even though these men, these homeless men are willing and they are getting paid for it.
01:01:54
Speaker
Paid labor.
01:01:55
Speaker
It's paid labor.
01:01:57
Speaker
No different than working at McDonald's, yeah.
01:01:59
Speaker
That was kind of the justification that the guys that were filming them make them.
01:02:03
Speaker
They're just like some, I don't know, 20-year-old douchebags.
01:02:08
Speaker
And...
01:02:09
Speaker
They were exploiting these homeless people.
01:02:11
Speaker
And eventually there was like an uproar because obviously it was inhumane and it got shut down and these guys went to prison for a bunch of other stuff.
01:02:19
Speaker
Like they ended up like, I think I read one of them like mailed baby parts to somebody else.
01:02:23
Speaker
Like it was actually like these guys were just straight up sociopaths in addition to them doing this quote unquote entertainment series of homeless men doing really crazy.
01:02:32
Speaker
horrible things.
01:02:33
Speaker
Now this population of people includes women.
01:02:36
Speaker
And a lot of times these are the women who end up in sex work.
01:02:39
Speaker
It's not okay to make an industry of sexually exploiting people like this.
01:02:43
Speaker
Yeah.
01:02:44
Speaker
That's what I, that's what I need them to understand.
01:02:46
Speaker
Like, yeah, like sex work is not a fucking bandaid for the failures of capitalism.
01:02:53
Speaker
Yeah.
01:02:53
Speaker
Oh, oh, preach God testify.
01:02:58
Speaker
It actually makes me fucking angry to see... Angry, doesn't it, right?
01:03:01
Speaker
They don't understand why we're mad, right?
01:03:03
Speaker
Because they're like, why are you guys so mad?
01:03:04
Speaker
But it is.
Morality and Historical Comparisons in Sex Work
01:03:05
Speaker
Yeah, and they interpret that anger as hatred, but we're not angry, or we're not hating the individual sex worker.
01:03:12
Speaker
We're hating the whole system.
01:03:13
Speaker
And we have a right to be angry.
01:03:15
Speaker
It's a fucked up system.
01:03:17
Speaker
Okay.
01:03:18
Speaker
The solution is not to, okay, let's make it totally okay for people to sexually exploit disabled, mentally ill, drug addicted women out on the street.
01:03:28
Speaker
Basically because these like choosy choice sex workers don't want to go to jail and they don't want their Johns to be like discouraged from giving them money.
01:03:35
Speaker
So they like lobby for these ideas with the idea that, oh, well, it's just sex.
01:03:39
Speaker
Why am I going to be in trouble for something I could give away for free and get money?
01:03:43
Speaker
And you bitches out here sucking dick for free.
01:03:45
Speaker
And I'm out here getting money for this dick I suck.
01:03:47
Speaker
And they have this whole attitude like everybody's jealous of them.
01:03:51
Speaker
And I'm like, loser.
01:03:53
Speaker
The anti-sex laws are not for you.
01:03:56
Speaker
They're for the bottom portion of society for whom this will be an absolute goddamn nightmare.
01:04:01
Speaker
Shut the fuck up.
01:04:03
Speaker
Yeah, the solution to, you know, disabled people not being able to earn an income or like homeless women, the solution to that is to have a proper welfare state.
01:04:14
Speaker
Yeah, proper welfare.
01:04:15
Speaker
People are going to be like, oh my God, you're a radical Marxist.
01:04:17
Speaker
Yeah, I'm a fucking radical Marxist.
01:04:19
Speaker
Okay.
01:04:20
Speaker
I think that we should have social programs to protect the most vulnerable members of society, including disabled people.
01:04:26
Speaker
And the thing that makes me so angry is when they talk about these policies in terms of social programs is just the way they talk about disabled members of disabled women.
01:04:35
Speaker
Right.
01:04:35
Speaker
So they'll say I'm pro sex work because disabled men can't get sex easily.
01:04:40
Speaker
And so they should be able to hire a woman to have sex with them.
01:04:43
Speaker
What kind of women are going to do that?
01:04:44
Speaker
The women who are very desperate.
01:04:46
Speaker
Stop it, right?
01:04:47
Speaker
It's such a double standard because they never say, oh, like disabled women should have the government pay to have male sex workers to go sexually service them.
01:04:56
Speaker
No, their solution for female disabled people is to say that they should suck dick for money and that they should be the ones going into and earning an income by being a sex worker because apparently a lot of guys out there have like a disability kink or whatever.
01:05:09
Speaker
But again, that's another fucked up thing.
01:05:10
Speaker
Like my sugar ba...
01:05:11
Speaker
like my sugar daddy saying he wants to date rape a woman.
01:05:15
Speaker
We shouldn't be caring.
01:05:17
Speaker
And these women are, you know, just, um, they're so much more vulnerable, especially if you have a mental illness, if you've got a physical disability, you really want to put them in a situation with a man who's essentially paid to rape them.
01:05:33
Speaker
And you think that's going to have a good outcome.
01:05:35
Speaker
Yeah.
01:05:36
Speaker
Like, disabled women are already more likely to face abuse.
01:05:40
Speaker
Yes.
01:05:41
Speaker
Even in, like, not sex, even outside of sex work.
01:05:44
Speaker
Exactly.
01:05:45
Speaker
Disabled women already disproportionately face so much sexual abuse.
01:05:47
Speaker
Did you hear that case of the woman who was in a coma who got pregnant?
01:05:51
Speaker
Yes.
01:05:52
Speaker
And they only found out when she was, like, moaning in bed, like, giving birth.
01:05:56
Speaker
That's when they found out.
01:05:57
Speaker
Because she was raped by, like, I think it was one of the male nurses.
01:06:01
Speaker
He raped her for, and he raped her for a long time as well.
01:06:04
Speaker
For years.
01:06:05
Speaker
Like, so, yeah, like, it is so, I'm actually getting like, the hairs on the back of my neck are standing up because this feels wrong.
01:06:13
Speaker
If you are a ethically, morally, well-adjusted person, you will look at that sort of statement and be like, that is fucked up.
01:06:21
Speaker
We should not be suggesting that disabled women put themselves in these dangerous situations.
01:06:27
Speaker
To earn a living, like, the solution would be for the government to tax the uber-rich, the fucking billionaires, and, you know, pay to have these... And to give them proper support.
01:06:36
Speaker
And to give them proper support, occupational therapy, pay for an apartment so they're not, like, one paycheck away from being on the streets.
01:06:44
Speaker
Like...
01:06:45
Speaker
Oh my God.
01:06:45
Speaker
Like, it just makes you wonder who's behind this because it's like, why wouldn't anybody in their right mind suggest that we make an industry out of sexually exploiting these people?
01:06:53
Speaker
Like, and then call this feminist because I mean, it's actually just point blank offensive on its face.
01:06:58
Speaker
It is offensive.
01:06:59
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:59
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:00
Speaker
And for the record, we support the Nordic model, which is decriminalizing women who sell sex and criminalizing buyers.
01:07:08
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:08
Speaker
I don't think sex workers should be going to jail unless they're pimps.
01:07:12
Speaker
Like, I don't think women who are trafficked shouldn't be going to jail.
01:07:16
Speaker
But we also cannot make an industry of men sexually exploiting vulnerable women, period.
01:07:20
Speaker
That cannot happen.
01:07:21
Speaker
That would be the worst thing to happen to women.
01:07:23
Speaker
I don't know why...
01:07:24
Speaker
I don't know why this is really picking up the kind of steam it is, but it shouldn't.
01:07:27
Speaker
I mean, they like to argue that sex work is one of the oldest professions to which I respond well.
01:07:32
Speaker
Like, slavery has existed since the beginning of time.
01:07:35
Speaker
Most people, the same crowd who argue that sex work is work were also the ones marching for BLM and the liberation of people of colour from, I guess, the residual effects of slavery.
01:07:49
Speaker
But they don't seem to connect the dots that...
01:07:53
Speaker
you know the amount of time something's been around is it doesn't it doesn't really speak to its moral standing and do you really think these women in the times of the bible were collecting the coins when they were sucking dick absolutely not they were under the thumb of men i mean pimps have existed since the beginning of time sexual exploitation has existed since the beginning of time not sex work
01:08:15
Speaker
Yeah, and there's been societies that have had it be legal or at least not criminalized, and it hasn't made it safer or better necessarily for sex workers.
01:08:25
Speaker
So again, I don't understand where this narrative comes from because it's not like we're the only society in history.
01:08:30
Speaker
There's other societies in history where brothels and whatever were normal part of business, and it hasn't made everything magically better for them.
01:08:38
Speaker
So I don't know.
01:08:39
Speaker
Yeah, like sex work has been...
01:08:41
Speaker
legal, or at least not criminalized for most of human history.
01:08:46
Speaker
And Savannah, I think the comparison of prostitution to slavery is, I think we talked about this in the Mod Chat, where it's such a good comparison because both started to exist at the dawn of civilization.
01:09:02
Speaker
Slavery, for example, started to exist because agriculture is back-breaking work that people don't want to do.
01:09:08
Speaker
And so one of the ways that people would
01:09:11
Speaker
get agricultural work to be done is to enslave them and compel them and use violence to compel them to do work that they don't want to do.
01:09:18
Speaker
And prostitution is exactly the same way.
01:09:20
Speaker
It's about using violence to compel women to do sexual labor that they don't want to do.
01:09:25
Speaker
And so I don't think that that's like, they're both very similar, actually, as an institution.
01:09:29
Speaker
And if you're against slavery, you should also be against prostitution.
01:09:33
Speaker
Facts.
01:09:34
Speaker
Exactly.
01:09:34
Speaker
Yeah.
01:09:36
Speaker
I almost feel spent.
01:09:37
Speaker
I feel like I have so much more in the tank, but also like.
Conclusion: Implications of Supporting the Sex Industry
01:09:40
Speaker
Yeah, this is exhausting.
01:09:41
Speaker
This has been an exhausting week.
01:09:44
Speaker
Oh my God.
01:09:45
Speaker
It has.
01:09:47
Speaker
I just hope for the people who saw the thread and like, you know, a little bit of the LibFem narrative started to crack just a little bit.
01:09:55
Speaker
And they started to kind of understand why prostitution in its current form has been not legalized and made like a normal part of business for this long.
01:10:04
Speaker
It's because of the exploitative nature.
01:10:06
Speaker
And also like...
01:10:07
Speaker
Just stop lying that this is an industry that's going to overall either empower women or that we have the kind of power in this industry overall when it is controlled by men.
01:10:16
Speaker
The house always wins here.
01:10:17
Speaker
The house always wins.
01:10:19
Speaker
And I don't know, I probably missed some points.
01:10:21
Speaker
But yeah, so long as you support prostitution, men will always win.
01:10:24
Speaker
It's that simple.
01:10:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's that simple.
01:10:28
Speaker
And that's our show.
01:10:29
Speaker
Please check out our Twitter at femdatstrat, as well as our Patreon, patreon.com forward slash the female dating strategy and our website, the female dating strategy.com.
01:10:38
Speaker
Thanks for listening, Queens.
01:10:39
Speaker
And for all you only fans having monkey spanking ass groats, die mad.