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Ep. 46: How teenage girls can stand up to Sexism
121 Plays3 years ago
In this episode of the podcast Helen Wills talks to author Toni Hargis, a mum of a teenage girl who still experiences the same sexism she did as a teenager.
Toni - along with Susanna Scott and Jennifer Howze of Britmums - has written How to Stand Up to Sexism, Words for When Enough is Enough.
We discuss the microaggressions that lead to bigger acts of sexism, both in the workplace, and in girls' personal lives, and what women and girls can do to stop them in their tracks.
Toni, Jen and Susanna offer practical advice to be used in a multitude of situations, as well as outlining what the law says in each case.
Who is Toni Hargis?
Toni Summers Hargis is an author and columnist. With a law degree and a Masters in Organisation Development under her belt, she spent years working in corporate HR, Training and Organisation Consulting.
Always ardent and vocal about women’s rights and equality, Toni was termed “difficult” in many a meeting and strives to continue in that vein, calling out sexist BS at every turn.
She has written about women’s rights issues for the past several years at Huffington Post, Medium and the BritMums website. She also blogged as Expat Mum during her years living in the USA.
You can find Toni here:
- Toni on Twitter
- Toni's website tonisummershargis.co.uk.
- How to Stand Up to Sexism book.
- Buy the book at Amazon (affiliate link).
More teenage parenting tips from Helen Wills:
Helen wills is a teen mental health podcaster and blogger at Actually Mummy a resource for midlife parents of teens.
Thank you for listening! Subscribe to the Teenage Kicks podcast to hear new episodes. If you have a suggestion for the podcast please email teenagekickspodcast@gmail.com.
There are already stories from fabulous guests about difficult things that happened to them as teenagers - including losing a parent, becoming a young carer, and being hospitalised with mental health problems - and how they overcame things to move on with their lives.
You can find more from Helen Wills on parenting teenagers on Instagram and Twitter @iamhelenwills.
For information on your data privacy please visit Podcast.co.
Please note that Helen Wills is not a medical expert, and nothing in the podcast should be taken as medical advice. If you're worried about a teenager, please seek support from a medical professional.
Podcast produced by James Ede at Be Heard production.
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Transcript
Introduction and Content Warning
00:00:00
Speaker
Before we get started on today's episode, I just need to add a warning that we do discuss very briefly rape and sexual assault. If that's something that you're likely to find distressing, you might want to scroll forward to a different episode. Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast, where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager.
Meet Tony Hargis: Writer and Advocate
00:00:32
Speaker
I'm Helen Wills and every week I talk to someone who's been through something difficult as a teenager but come out the other side in a good place and has insight to offer to others who might be going through similar.
00:00:52
Speaker
My guest this week has a thing or two to say about sexism and she's not mincing her words, nor does she think the rest of us should either. Tony Hargis is a writer who grew up in the northeast of England, which is possibly where she learned to call a spade a spade.
00:01:09
Speaker
After studying law in Bristol, Toni moved to America where she spent 27 years honing her craft as a writer, simultaneously providing insight for American audiences into expat life, British culture and even the nuances of Downton Abbey. She's previously authored two books about Britain and expat life and has now added a new book to her writing for women about how to stand up to sexism.
00:01:38
Speaker
Co-authored with Brit Mums founders Susanna Scott and Jennifer Howes, How to Stand Up to Sexism is like a self-help manual for any woman who's ever been lost for words in the face of a sexist comment or action, only to lie awake all night recreating the scene in her head, only this time knowing exactly what needs to be said. Words for when enough is enough.
The Motivation Behind the Book
00:02:02
Speaker
Tony, welcome to the podcast and thank you for writing a book about feminism that's both obviously needed and utterly practical. Oh, thank you very much. Yeah, you're right. I can't believe that it hasn't been done before actually. Well, I started reading it and it's, I have to say for anybody that's listening before buying a copy of the book, which you are obviously all going to do when you finish listening. I started reading it and just thought, well, yeah, I mean, yeah.
00:02:30
Speaker
yeah i know i mean before we launched it i mean i woke up every day for about two years thinking okay this is the day that somebody else is gonna have had the same idea and the books coming out you know nobody ever did every so often would see an article.
00:02:47
Speaker
and there'd be a couple of lines and we'd think, oh no, oh no, we've been beaten to it. But it's just unbelievable that so many women are looking at it and thinking, yep, that's what I used to do and that's what I need now. And it's just never been written.
00:03:02
Speaker
Yeah, isn't that amazing? And actually, as an aside, anybody that's listening and procrastinating about a really good idea that they've got, just crack on and get it done. Definitely, definitely. Because no one else is thinking about it or everyone else is thinking about it and waiting for you to do it. Yeah, definitely. Tony, you've written about sexist experiences that you've had that have left you feeling angry and upset. Is that what made you want to write this book?
00:03:29
Speaker
I think I've always been very vocal about women's rights. In my corporate existence, I was quite often called difficult or unprofessional when I raised points about the treatment of the men and women.
00:03:45
Speaker
Um, being different. So yes, I've always been like that, but it was more recently with the resurgence of me too. Um, and I looked at things, you know, about four or five years ago and I thought, good God, we're still dealing with the same things that I did decades ago. Um, I have a daughter in her twenties and she's still dealing with the same sort of stuff at work in the gym, you know, that sort of thing. So that was one of the, of my impetus and, um,
00:04:12
Speaker
The other one, as you sort of touched on was, then you go back to all the situations that you've ever been in, and you start saying, Oh, I should have done this, I should have said that, you know, with with your 2020 hindsight, which is always brilliant. And I just thought, well,
00:04:28
Speaker
So, why can't I put my 2020 hindsight to good use and help other women? So, that was when Jen and Susanna and I started talking, and then we contacted other women who have got the t-shirt, so to speak. So, we got some brilliant contributions from women like Victoria Derbyshire, who was one of the first to jump in.
00:04:54
Speaker
And she gave us some examples of when she was a fledgling journalist. So it's sort of a twofold impetus to write the book.
Sexism and Patriarchy in Modern Society
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah, I'm just on your website now, and you said things like criteria for women being interviewed for a position. Comments like, isn't she a bit too mousy? Or she needs to do something about her appearance?
00:05:20
Speaker
We all know has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's ability to do a job but you experienced that amongst other things like being told to help another woman make the coffee when no one, no men were told to help. Yeah.
00:05:37
Speaker
You've just given me a bit of a shiver saying that your daughter is still experiencing things like this, so it really, really hasn't changed. You know, it's changed in that you're never, well, hopefully you're not going to walk through a staff kitchen and see your topless poster. So the very, very, very obvious ones, yeah, that's
00:06:00
Speaker
as I say, hopefully gone by the wayside. But yeah, the sexism is still there. Women, during this pandemic, for example, they got hit worse. They were the ones to lose their jobs more because a lot of them were working part-time jobs, etc.
00:06:19
Speaker
They also had to take on more of a share of the childcare at home. That was a big complaint that even women that were working full time were still expected to be the ones to stop and take care of their children or to homeschool their kids and that sort of thing. So that is still going on. And then of course there's the whole physical side of it. And one of the things that my daughter tells me, she goes to the gym a lot and she boxes.
00:06:46
Speaker
and she's quite good. And whenever she's practicing in the gym, she'll get some dude that comes up to her and starts giving her tips and knows nothing about it. Still,
00:06:58
Speaker
Or the mansplaining. You talk about that in the book a lot, a mansplaining. It's a recent word, isn't it? But it is in the Oxford English Dictionary, isn't it? Yeah, well, as it should be. I mean, it goes on all the time. And I think a lot of the time, men don't realise they're doing it. And then they'll give you examples of womansplaining, which is a term that
00:07:19
Speaker
doesn't exist for a reason, because the balance of power has to be in the favour of the person who's doing the explaining, and that's what makes it so sexist. You know, it's done from a position of, you know, men are in charge, you know, they still are, that's the patriarchy. And so yeah, mansplaining all the time. Does that come then from, because talking about women losing their jobs more in the pandemic, do you think that all stems from the fact that
00:07:47
Speaker
There is a bigger majority of women in underpaid, undervalued jobs, as you've talked about, than there is of men, and that people have made... I'm playing devil's advocate, I guess, here a little bit, albeit that I absolutely agree with you, it's wrong.
00:08:04
Speaker
Did couples who both worked decide, right, well, if someone has to stay home and homeschool the kids, it ought to be the person who earns the least? And is that a principle, is that factor simply of the unfairness of the gender pay gap?
00:08:20
Speaker
Well, I was going to say, from practical purposes, as a household, it would make sense for the person earning the most to keep working if there has to be a choice. But yes, you're right. And a lot of times, the men are earning more because traditionally, jobs that suddenly become men's jobs and then jobs that suddenly become women's jobs, there is a marked difference in pay. When you look at nurses and teachers versus, I don't know,
00:08:50
Speaker
jobs that are typically men like firemen or bin men or something like that. So from a practical level, you sort of can't blame families for doing that, but I would hope that there was some kind of discussion. The feeling that I'm getting, and there's not enough data being gathered on it, is that when there were two working people who were able to continue to work and somehow manage it, the women are complaining that it was just sort of assumed that they would get up and
00:09:20
Speaker
do an hour of teaching and then an hour of work and an hour of teaching or something like that. And that was the anecdotal stuff that was coming through loud and clear. Yes, yes, that men were not expected by their employers or by themselves or perhaps even by their partners to take time away from their job in order to do that. It was just, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:09:47
Speaker
Yeah, and, you know, with some organizations, and I saw it a lot decades ago, and I think it's getting better now, but this idea that men, you know, it was always the woman that had to take time off to take the kids to the dentist, or, you know, the doctors or something like that, and the men never had to do it. But on the other side of that, the flip side is that the men were never allowed to take time off to go and see a piano recital or a school play. So that kind of
00:10:13
Speaker
work setup works against men and and I think they're slowly coming to realize that this Patriarchy doesn't always work for them as well as they think it does Yes, and I wanted to draw attention to that. You've said in the book quite early on that this is not a book Bad-mouthing men not at all and it's very clear as you're reading through it that it isn't and you make it clear at various points that
00:10:41
Speaker
whilst the not all men argument is problematic for lots of reasons. You make it clear why that is and you're at pains to make sure. You state many times that we don't, as a collective of women, women don't
00:10:59
Speaker
don't blame all men. We know that most men are decent human beings who do want to do absolutely the right thing, but do need some things explaining to them because very naturally they haven't had to think. It's a bit like racism. If you haven't had to think about it because it hasn't affected you personally,
00:11:23
Speaker
then you don't have the perspective and you need to sit and listen to the perspective of the people that are experiencing. Have I said that right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think also, if the system is working for you, if it's working in your favour, and whether that's sexism or racism, you're not that likely to want to change it anyway, even if that's sort of like a subconscious
00:11:47
Speaker
There's not a lot of incentive to change a system that's working for you. I think a lot of men would never say that, but really, they don't need to rise up. They don't need to form
00:12:03
Speaker
groups and, you know, write books on it because everything at the moment works in their favor. I mean, there are a few exceptions, but for the most part, it's a system, especially at work, that was set up by men for men. And it really, you know, it doesn't serve women. Yeah, well, it was originally back in the
00:12:27
Speaker
I'm thinking early 1900, I'm thinking about my mum because she was typical 50s housewife. That was the norm and that was what everybody seemed content with at the time, but we're 100 years on from there and things need to move with the times. I think you're right though that slowly but surely
00:12:49
Speaker
Men are beginning to realize that patriarchy is not something that they created, but it's not something that they need to protect or defend because it isn't serving them.
00:13:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think in theory they will agree, but then, and I'm saying this as the mother of two white sons, as soon as the rubber hits the road and you realize that your white son isn't going to be the preferential candidate,
00:13:24
Speaker
It's interesting when you talk to people in those situations and all of a sudden they're saying, he's never going to get a job now because he's white and he's a guy. You hear that all the time. What I try to say to people is that it's not that he's never going to get the job, it's just that he's now going to have more competition.
00:13:44
Speaker
And it's going to be competition that is just as good as him. And ironically, certain people also complain about affirmative action and, oh, she's just going to get the job now because she's a woman. Not realizing that men have been getting
Practical Tools Against Sexism
00:14:00
Speaker
jobs just because they're men for centuries. And then all of a sudden people don't like that because it's just that we're not choosing white men as often as we used to.
00:14:13
Speaker
That is such a good reframe and that is what you do throughout the book is just very, in a way that is just so, as I said, I used the word obvious when I introduced you because it is obvious, but it needs to be, you need the picture painted for you in a way that makes complete sense because there's so much
00:14:38
Speaker
ingrained stereotyping to be gotten past. To go back to your point, the book is not anti-men, it's for women. There's not a lot of talking about men as such in there. This is definitely women, this is what you could say, these are options, and there are no shoulds.
00:14:59
Speaker
There's no right way. But there is a chapter at the end about how to be an upstander instead of a bystander, which is for men. And even then, I hope that we talk to men because they're willing to read the book and they're willing to make an effort. So we come at it from that perspective.
00:15:19
Speaker
Well, yes, I mean, so I'm similar to you, I have a teenage boy and a teenage girl. So I see everything from both sides. And of course, they're teenagers. And so they're both quite impassioned and quite black and white. So I'd sort of navigate those conversations and try to help each of them see all of it. And, you know, it's not that difficult with my son because he's got a strong mum and a strong sister, he's always grown up assuming that everybody is equal.
00:15:48
Speaker
And yet...
00:15:51
Speaker
little things come into play. And I've read Laura Bates's book recently, Men Who Hate Women. That is a totally different kettle of finish. But again, I can see how little things can seep into young men's minds as being, well, yeah, that's how I feel. So that must be the case. And that is a bit scary.
00:16:18
Speaker
So just going back to the practical nature of your book,
00:16:25
Speaker
I was struck at the beginning, and yes, the chapter at the end, I think men should read because that's what I was going to say, actually. My son and my husband both have listened and I think they would read it because they are interested in understanding what it is that women find difficult and upsetting and making sure that that doesn't happen as far as they can.
00:16:51
Speaker
So I think they would do well to read that chapter and I think they'd be willing to. And I think there are a lot of men and boys like that. So they're the ones that you want to read that last chapter of your book, aren't they? In terms of the earlier chapters, you start off.
00:17:09
Speaker
with what you've termed and we all know as microaggressions, things that we think of as small. So you and I, perhaps not you, but I in previous decades might have just brushed off as something to be dealt with. But they create
00:17:28
Speaker
the foundation that allows for much bigger acts of sexism and misogyny and assault even. One of the things you mentioned, I hadn't thought about it at the time, but it's absolutely right. Things like in the pandemic after lockdown, the barbers and pubs being allowed to open before beauty salons and nail bars. None of us could get eyebrows or nails done, but you could get your beard trimmed.
00:17:57
Speaker
Yes. Amazing. It's tempting to brush that off and go, well, it'll only be another few weeks, but it actually makes a big statement, doesn't it? Well, it does, and especially because you'd think it was little, but it's not because the government did that. The government said, so that was actually huge in that respect, that yes, it was sort of like a microaggression, but it was state sanctioned.
00:18:23
Speaker
Yes. So, actually, the more I think about it, the more outrageous it gets. Yes, and the reason being that those decisions were all being made by men.
00:18:34
Speaker
who were not considering that they wanted the things open that they wanted for themselves. Let's say everything's personally motivated, isn't it? Actually, what I want to get to about your book is that quite a lot of what you recommend and it is words for when enough is enough, that's your strap line to the book. Quite a lot of what you recommend is being is quite objective.
00:19:04
Speaker
So you talk a lot about taking anger and one-sidedness out of it. It's personal, but just...
00:19:16
Speaker
Making the person, the aggressor, if we want to call them that, making the person who's upset you realize why and stop it from happening again, most importantly. And I think sometimes you don't even have to get them to realize why. I mean, if you're being harassed or someone's just getting in your face, I think physical is different.
00:19:38
Speaker
When it's verbal, sometimes you just want to stop it. There are certain people, if you try and explain why, they will get around it. They'll gaslight you. They will get around it somehow. At that point, you just have to stop trying to reason with them. Women find that hard, I think. I know that's a generalization, but how many times have you said, I didn't know what to say because I didn't want to be rude?
00:20:01
Speaker
all the time and only recently. And that person's just been rude to you. That person is offending you. That person is making you feel uncomfortable. And we still worry about offending them or being rude or not making a fuss. I mean, we have, you know, I said before, there are no shoulds in this book. They're all options.
00:20:21
Speaker
There's no right way, but one of my only shoulds is that women should feel that they can stand up to this and that they can say something. We need to put ourselves first in these situations, definitely. Yeah, yeah. Yes, and you're right. I think women have for a long, long time and are still doing it, me included.
00:20:45
Speaker
not speaking up for fear of the reaction you might get, for fear of bad feeling, being viewed negatively. Yeah. And that is a massive leap of faith, isn't it? It is. And there's the qualifier. I mean, you always have to keep your personal safety for front and center as well as job security. I mean, there are a lot of women putting up with a lot of stuff at work. And, you know, I can't sit here and say, well, you need to say that and you need to say this because, you know,
00:21:13
Speaker
You know, job security is a big issue. And with a lot of people on these terrible contracts right now, you know, there is no job security. So you have to keep that in mind. And as I said, personal safety. But if someone's offending you, maybe this is an age thing. I don't care if they feel offended when I call them out on it. It's tough. You know, if they have that little respect for me,
00:21:39
Speaker
then I'm not going to worry about offending them. And I think that does come with age, actually. There's a saying that we give fewer Fs as we age. Well, it does, and also with experience. So, whatever age you are, if you've had enough experiences, there comes a point, I think, when you just say, as you've said, enough is enough.
00:22:03
Speaker
I'm dealing with this now. So moving on to some of the practical advice you've given the book and it is super, super practical. You've got on one side of the page, you've got quotes and words for
00:22:19
Speaker
how you might feel and situations that you might find yourself. And then on the other side, you've got words that you can pick and choose from. It's like a pick and mix. Today, I'm feeling quite feisty. I'll pick that one. Today, I'm feeling a little bit insecure. I'm going to go with this instead, but it still makes the point. I know I'm putting you on the spot now, but can you give us an example for listeners of
00:22:46
Speaker
a situation and some of the potential responses that you've written in the book. If not, I can go and find them, but I just... Well, I'm just trying to... I can't really see. Hang on. I'll get some light on the subject. You've said things like, oh, boys will be boys, and it's just banter stopping through sentences.
00:23:07
Speaker
The Banter one, there's a brilliant paper that was put out by the TUC, the Trade Union Congress, called It's Just Banter. And people will find it's not. It's actually been taken to be a form of sexual harassment. So if anyone at work, in particular,
00:23:24
Speaker
is being fobbed off with it's just banter, then my advice would be to say something like, let's go down to HR and define banter, shall we? Or I think you'll find it's not just banter, it's illegal. So that kind of thing. Yeah, I really like that. And you've used let's go say that in front of HR a number of times in the work settings, because those are some of the most
00:23:50
Speaker
uncomfortable places to stand up for yourself, especially when it's somebody who is perceived to be more senior to you, for example.
00:24:00
Speaker
And what I really like about those sections of the book is you've made it clear, because women need to educate themselves in order to have confidence about what they're doing actually is fact. So I think if you feel backed up by the law, then you feel more confident and able to say, well, actually, you're being a tosser.
00:24:22
Speaker
But not in those words and making that person realise that they're being a tosser. No. Yeah. Well, and the other thing is, you know, Victoria, sorry. No, you go ahead, Victoria. It interests me a lot, actually. Yeah. And one of the contributions that she gave us for the book was very typical in that she said when she was a lot younger and she wasn't being paid what she should have been. And she
00:24:48
Speaker
She didn't beat herself up, but she looks back and thinks she should have known that was illegal. Well, she was quite young. Not everyone's an employment lawyer. If you can back up those types of situations with what it should be by the law, then obviously you've got far more likelihood of getting the situation redressed.
Knowing and Using Your Rights
00:25:10
Speaker
So I always advise people in workplace situations, if you've got a union, go and talk to the union, but find out what your rights are first. And then you can quite clinically say, well, actually under the Equality Act 2010,
00:25:26
Speaker
you have to do this or you can't do that. And that always has more sway. It's not just you whining. Yeah, it's amazing how quickly that stops a situation in its tracks or brings people around to your way of thinking.
00:25:41
Speaker
Yeah, it shouldn't be, should it? Because it just should be decency, but it's a good backup. And you make that clear in the book throughout that, for example, this situation is illegal because of
00:25:57
Speaker
X. So it's a nice education in knowing what you need to know in order to say what you need to say. Yeah. And the other thing that you touched on about sticking to facts, if you call someone names,
00:26:13
Speaker
Instead of saying, I think I say this in the book, instead of saying to someone you're a filthy pervert, talk about what they've done and why it's wrong. Don't call them names because that's first of all, it doesn't get you very far, but it immediately puts people on the defensive. But I'm not saying also, you don't have to get all touchy feely, you don't have to do the old, when you say this, I feel this. That's not going to work either. You just have to tell them why it's offensive to you.
00:26:40
Speaker
And don't ask them to stop, just say just say it in a way that the expectation is they will stop. Because I think that goes a long way as well. One of the things you said actually, which I really liked was when somebody if somebody listens to you and apologizes, you don't say, Oh, that's okay, which is so
00:27:01
Speaker
common for people just to want to then, oh, brilliant. That's over. Let's just be nice again. You say, thank you. And then you move on. I really like that. And don't say, don't worry about it. Because I want them to go off and think about what they've done. You know, I do want them to repeat it.
00:27:17
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I say that a number of times in the book. You say, I want you to stop that, thank you. Don't say please, because you shouldn't be having to ask for decency. You shouldn't be having to ask for the basics. You just say thank you and it gives the expectation that they will comply.
00:27:39
Speaker
Yeah, Tony, I'm going to give you a situation. Let's say that it's hypothetical. So in a family situation with wider extended family, because work is work is one thing and you've got the law on your side and you can be succinct.
00:27:56
Speaker
You're with extended family, and let's say that an older man talks about how the Me Too thing has gone too far. And you talk about this in the book. Men can't say anything these days. Flirting's all gone, and what a shame it is. And you do advise, is it worth engaging that elderly person? Because will you ever get him to change his mind or alter his behavior? Quite possibly not.
00:28:26
Speaker
But then, because it's an extended family, multi-generational, a man your age joins in and agrees, and then a woman your age supports him. What would you say in that situation?
00:28:43
Speaker
Well, to this thing, you know, has me two gone too far? I would first of all say, well, define too far. And I would just put it all back on them. Because what in that situation, what people tend to do is just sit back and wait for you to do all the talking. And then they just pick at it. And it's very easy to do that. So, you know, I would say, well, define too far. And
00:29:05
Speaker
You usually don't get a straight answer. It's all yes, but, or then they go into what I call what aboutery. So what about this, what about that? So that's one thing. Just back the question straight back to the person. But then if you really wanted to get into it, you could name all the things that we still have a long way to go on, which one of them is the gender pay gap, which according to some experts is going to take up to 50 years to redress.
00:29:32
Speaker
No, me too hasn't gone too far. You look at rape prosecutions. The CPS, the Crown Prosecution Services, have just come out with new numbers recently as to the awful low percentage of rapes that ever get to court, never mind convicted.
00:29:52
Speaker
of them. So, you know, that's another area where we have a lot of work to do. There's a movement now by some young girls who have the Our Streets Now campaign, and they're working with the home office to make catcalling public street harassment a crime. You know, No Me Too hasn't gone that far. When we're still fighting for basics like that, then no, it hasn't gone too far.
00:30:19
Speaker
But you're right, there's only so much that you can do with the elderly. The reason I would say anything at all is because of the younger people around. It's the same with when you're on social media, which is full of trolls.
00:30:36
Speaker
But every so often, it's worth responding because other people are reading. So in a family situation, you would have younger people listening. And sometimes you can give an answer that they can say, ah, it's a bit like the book, ah, I can use that the next time this comes up. So that's why it would be worth saying it for me. Yes, or even
00:30:59
Speaker
Oh, I hadn't thought about it like that because I do genuinely think that that was what was going on in this hypothetical situation. And with family, I think it's, and friends, it's quite difficult sometimes to be outspoken and to use the advice because you've got to think, and you do mention this, you've got to think about
00:31:24
Speaker
your ongoing relationship with those people and how much do you want to protect it versus how much do you want to educate them. But you're right that being objective and saying, well, here's the reasons why I think Me Too hasn't gone far enough yet. And you give lots of those reasons that just seeds in minds that hadn't previously thought too hard about it might just be worth that statement.
00:31:51
Speaker
Yeah. And the other thing that people do, which is sort of, you know, I'm in two minds about it, but when you hear men phrasing it in terms of their wives, their daughters. Yes. And sometimes that works. I mean, if you said to an older man, you know, how would you feel if your daughter was doing exactly the same job as the guy who lived next door and was working really hard at it and was really good at her job? What if you knew that she was earning 80% of what he was earning? And
00:32:18
Speaker
I think if you can put it in real terms, but it's just a shame that men have to, in occasions like that, have to have it framed as to how it would impact their family. And we need to get to a point where they are thinking just in the wider sense of it's not fair for all women, not just the ones that they're related to.
00:32:40
Speaker
Yes, you're right. Actually, my daughter can't stand any pussyfooting around it. You've just got to call it, as I said at the beginning, call a spade a spade. I think I mentioned that at one point in the book. Don't
00:32:56
Speaker
Don't use euphemisms. If something's upsetting you, then just say it. Again, don't call people names, but don't pretend that it's not as bad as it was. Whatever was done to you or said to you, point it out and use the words that you need to use. Otherwise, if we dilute what was going on, we also dilute the message.
00:33:17
Speaker
So, we would only have ourselves to blame in that respect if we just sent half of a message or we were half as angry as we really were.
00:33:31
Speaker
Give a flavour of the order of play in the book, so some of the things that you talk about, some of the things you cover. We start off with an introduction as to why we wrote the book. The first chapter or section, as we call them, is entitled Give Yourself a Talking To.
00:33:53
Speaker
Because even before you get to the words, my other only should really is we need a mindset change. Women need a mindset change so that that chapter looks at why sexism is not your fault.
00:34:08
Speaker
And no one forces people to be sexist. You do not set up that situation. You do not provoke people to harass you or catcall you in the street. So that to me, that's a crucial section and it's a crucial mindset change that women need to have before we can even start coming up with words and phrases. So read that chapter.
00:34:32
Speaker
And then we've got general tips that someone says, oh, I was only joking. The phrases that can be put into any category that can answer any situation. So we've got one chapter on that. And then we go through sexists, what they say.
00:34:49
Speaker
We're just talking about words. As you said before, we've got mansplaining, we've got hitting on you in bars, what to do. That's a classic when a guy comes up to you in a bar and just won't go away. It's clear from your behavior that you're not interested.
00:35:06
Speaker
And then they keep going as if they're going to try and persuade you, you know, so we've got situations like that. We've got the situations where men are trying to put you in your place by calling you sweetheart and love and all that sort of thing. Then we go on to sexist what they do.
00:35:24
Speaker
And that's the more physical stuff. Well, I have to say, we don't deal with rape because that is a completely different area. So we give resources for that because there's nothing you can say in those situations. But we talk about the physical things like just standing too close to you, which men use as a power play. So what you can say to that kind of thing, what you can say to the hugging, not that anyone's doing that at the moment, but people who want to hug,
00:35:52
Speaker
And that's not just men, that can be women. But the reason why we included it is because as a woman, if you say, don't touch me, we're not supposed to say that. We're still supposed to accommodate the hugger.
00:36:07
Speaker
So we included it in that because we're brought up to accommodate that other person. Yes. I finished reading that section last night and I can feel it physically in my body now and this is not a sexist situation. This was another woman when I was six months pregnant wanting to put her hands on my belly. And I was so shocked and I hated it so much.
00:36:36
Speaker
But she was so lovely and was a friend that I allowed it. And it gives me the creeps even now. And there was nothing sexual about it. So actually, one of the things that I was going to say about the book anyway is that it's a good read for anyone who's ever experienced something uncomfortable with another person. Because the words you give
00:37:02
Speaker
And the tools you give are for, they're useful. I was thinking, okay, that would have been really useful. I could have said this without upsetting her or offending her. And it wouldn't have happened again. And that actually is one of the best points of the book, I think, is that the majority of the situations you describe and the majority of the things that you use as potential responses should, in most cases,
00:37:28
Speaker
deal with the behavior once and for all, and it shouldn't happen to you again. That's the vibe I was getting. I mean, clearly, we're not in an ideal world yet. And that isn't going to happen in every case. But in most cases, it's practical solutions to end something once and for all.
00:37:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's not, and I say this, for the most part, you're not trying to get into a debate with people, and especially if you're uncomfortable. It's excruciating having to say some of these things, not because they're rude, but because we're just stepping outside of our comfort zone. So you do not want to extend a situation any longer than it needs to go on. So the aim in a lot of these is just stop the situation. And that's another point is, as women, we need to,
00:38:13
Speaker
be comfortable with feeling uncomfortable for a while. For most of us, it does not come easy in that situation. For example, to say to that really nice person, I'm very uncomfortable with this, or I don't like this, please stop. It's not offensive to say that, but it's really hard. Especially if the other person doesn't realize what they're doing.
00:38:37
Speaker
The same one that I think in the book, it's like we call it, or somebody else actually calls it a gateway move, is the shoulder massage. Oh God, yes. Oh, I was cringing when you wrote that.
00:38:51
Speaker
That can be done by a well-meaning friend, you know, these people who insist you need a massage. And I'm one of those people who I cannot stand any kind of massages. So I'd be slapping the hand off. I have no problem with doing that. But that shoulder massage is a gateway to other physical contact.
00:39:11
Speaker
It can be very uncomfortable, but you need to trust your gut in that one, and if you know it's maybe they're testing you out to see how much physical contact they can get away with, you have to, in that case, step outside of your comfort zone and say, I'm not comfortable with this, or please stop. Just say, please stop.
00:39:36
Speaker
Even if you don't think it is something that might lead to something else, if you don't like it, you have a right to say, we are all owners of our own bodies and physical space, and we all have a right to say, that doesn't work for me, please don't do it.
00:39:53
Speaker
Yeah. And I say that, I just say, oh, did nobody tell you I hate massages? I mean, that's all I have. And I laugh, but it stops it because everyone, you know, they go, some people get slightly offended, but tough, you know, I'm just not touching my shoulders. Yeah. I know someone who, you know, when hugging was a thing before the pandemic, you'd hug people that you hadn't met before, but you'd only met them online. If you meet them, you'll hug them. It's a standard greeting, a bit like the French two kisses. Yeah.
00:40:20
Speaker
I'm not comfortable with those either, actually. Having read your book, I feel like, do you know what? Going forward, and when people do this, I'm only going to hug people I really want to hug, if they look like they want me to hug them. This person, it just reminded me of this person who a few years ago had said, she'd been hugged and she said, I'm not a hugger.
00:40:41
Speaker
And all of us in the room went, okay, noted, and never tried again. And that's the objective, isn't it? That's all you want to achieve. And then you can make it really funny, but you get the message across, you know, you just, and if someone's hugging you, just keep your arms by your sides.
00:41:00
Speaker
Sometimes my daughter will hug me if it's a hugging kind of day. But if she's not in the mood for it, I know instantly. And in fact, I've got to the point now where I'll say to her, can I have a hug? Yeah.
00:41:13
Speaker
Or do you fancy a hug today? And sometimes she'll say, yeah, all right then. And sometimes she'll go, nope, not today. And that's fine. Yeah. And it doesn't mean they don't like you. No. You know, just sometimes, you know, there's a lot of, I mean, I'm not a big physical contact person. And I mean, I've learned to, you know, living in the US, and especially in the Midwest, people hug all the time. So you just get used to it. But, you know, sometimes, and now I don't know who to hug. I have no idea.
00:41:42
Speaker
confusing. Oh, the British. It's a very British problem. Tony, thank you. And I think I interrupted you, I think just before you got to the point where your final chapter, your final chapter, which we've discussed already, which is aimed at the men in your life who might want to understand it
Intersectionality and Education
00:42:05
Speaker
a bit better.
00:42:05
Speaker
Well, also, not just the men. The one thing I have to say is that it's also aimed at white women and older women, even though an older woman wrote this book, because what I found is a lot of older women think they put up with it. Why shouldn't you? And I think that's just an awful approach. Well, first of all, if you put up with anything, then you're acknowledging that there was a problem.
00:42:30
Speaker
But also, these younger women need our support. They don't need sarcasm and they don't need to be told to get a spine or just to put up with it. I think there's great strength in standing up to sexism and you only have to see the backlash.
00:42:47
Speaker
to know that there's a reason why some women put up with it. It's because it's difficult, and I'm not criticizing people who do put up with it because, as I said, there's job security, there's personal security, all sorts of things. But women who stand up to sexism are not snowflakes. So that's for older women. And then white women,
00:43:07
Speaker
tend to gain more from any benefits and improvements at work. So the intersectional women who are the women who fall under other protected categories like race, physical and mental ability, that sort of thing.
00:43:24
Speaker
They fare far worse than white women with no other protections. So if we ask men to be our allies, then we have to do the same for all women. We have to step up and make sure that when we make gains, we bring everyone with us. Yes. Yes, that's a really good point. And all three of you are mothers of daughters and me too.
00:43:52
Speaker
It's so painfully obvious that they're not standing for this anymore and that it's with us to not undermine that need, that desire, that push, if you like, by trying to talk them out of it. Well, and also what I've found is with a lot of the younger women that I was working with to get input for the book and just to get feedback, a lot of younger women don't actually realize what's being done to them and said to them.
00:44:22
Speaker
You know, and I'm not sure why, but we quite often got women, as we were talking to them, who would think, oh, well, you know, I haven't really had much sexism in my life. And then they go, oh, hang on a minute. And then they start looking at situations. We have one woman in the book, Kate, who was a 22-year-old teacher.
00:44:41
Speaker
was followed and hounded by an older teacher. And reading it, it's heartbreaking because she didn't realize how inappropriate that was. And she was questioning what she was wearing, was she leading him on? And he was behaving, he should have been fired.
00:45:03
Speaker
But she, at 22, didn't really realise that it was not her fault. None of it was her fault. So sometimes we have to open their eyes that you didn't bring this on, you didn't provoke anybody, and you have a right to do something about it. Yes, and you're making me think, actually. My daughter often says this, nothing about the way I look, as long as I'm presentable, should
00:45:26
Speaker
A, attract unwanted attention or B, tell anybody anything about my ability to do the things that I'm charged with doing might so my job and it's quite hard for me to watch her because she's just got her first job and it's hard for me to watch her.
00:45:47
Speaker
I don't think she's changing her opinion, but she is having to come to terms with the need to conform because she wants bright pink hair for the summer before she goes back to school. And actually, let's face it, these things start in school with rules at school, don't they? She's not allowed pink hair at school, she knows that, so she wanted it for the summer, but the job she's got won't allow it.
00:46:09
Speaker
Or they haven't actually categorically said no, they've just made it clear that they wouldn't be too pleased. And that's all part and parcel. I can see why women then get confused about what should be expected of them. Should is a bad word to use here. What is expected of them or what they think is expected of them by men in a work situation. It's all very messy, isn't it? It's quite hard to decode when you're young.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, and I think young girls don't realise that, for example, if you were told to wear heels, they can't tell you to do that. I mean, uniforms are one thing, so if everyone's wearing a uniform, that's fine. And actually, if no one was allowed to have pink hair, that's actually fine. That is true, yes, yes.
00:47:00
Speaker
And there is a corporate image to think about as well, depending on who she's working for. But yeah, I mean, a lot of girls, young women and girls, again, it's not a fault of theirs, it's just knowledge. It's just knowledge of what is their right and what's their legal right as well. And so I hope younger women do read this because I guarantee they'll go through the book
00:47:26
Speaker
and think, oh, my God, somebody said that to me the other day, you know, I could have said this. But I don't want people to feel like you have to react. You have to say this, you have to say that, because I can't stress if you freeze. I read something on Twitter yesterday by a woman who had been accosted in a field, you know, walking a dog, which, you know, and it was she and she was just shocked by it, but also annoyed with herself because she froze.
00:47:53
Speaker
Yes. That's a very typical reaction and perfectly, perfectly normal. If that happens, that's fine. You certainly, in a situation where you're alone in a field with someone who thinks it's okay to harass you, you do not want to aggravate that person. No. No. I think that's a really good point to finish on is that none of this book
00:48:18
Speaker
tells you what you should do other than not accept things that make you unhappy. And so it feels very approachable and very, like I said at the beginning, very much like a self-help manual. So it's all optional. There are no rules. There is nothing that you're being told to change as a result of this other than not accepting something you don't want to accept.
00:48:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's my message. Yeah, thank you, Tony. It's been brilliant chatting to you. I hope the book sales do really well. I hope, in fact, I've just got a PDF copy as a preview, but I'm going to get the book and give it to my daughter. She will read it, and I think she'll find it useful. Good. Yeah. Tony, tell people where they can connect with you.
00:49:08
Speaker
Well, my personal website is tonysummershargus.co.uk and I'm on Twitter at tonyhargus and you can find details about the book at the Brit Mums website and it's basically howtostanduptosexism.com will take you through to the page with all the buying links and information and the great reviews that we've had so far.
00:49:33
Speaker
Yes, some brilliant reviews. Really good. Yeah, it's really resonated with people and I'm sure it's going to resonate with anyone that chooses to read it. Thank you again for chatting to me today. All right, thank you.
00:49:54
Speaker
If you've enjoyed the Teenage Kicks podcast, I would love it if you consider subscribing or giving me a rating and review wherever you listen to your podcasts. It really helps other people to find these important conversations about teenage life. And if you know someone else who might get inspiration from this episode, please do share it with them.
00:50:17
Speaker
There are lots more episodes, so have a browse and see if anything else strikes a chord for your family. And if you have feedback or a suggestion for a future episode, please do email me on Teenage Kicks Podcast at gmail.com. I love to hear from my listeners, and I'm always looking for more stories. There are more parenting teens tips on my blog, Actually Mummy, and you'll also find me talking about the teenage years on Instagram at I am Helen Wills.
00:50:47
Speaker
I'll put all the links in the episode notes. Thank you so much for listening. Come back next week when I'll be chatting to another brilliant guest about the highs and lows of Raising Team.