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Silence the Shame: A Conversation on Domestic Violence Awareness
119 Plays1 year ago
In this powerful episode, we shed light on the crucial issue of domestic violence and intimate partner violence. Join us for a heartfelt conversation as we sit down with expert and advocate, Chae Gardenhire, to discuss the impact of domestic violence on individuals and communities. Gain valuable insights into recognizing signs, offering support, and fostering a culture of empathy and empowerment. This episode aims to raise awareness, inspire change, and provide resources for those affected by domestic violence.
About today's guest:
Chae Gardenhire is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and therapist in the metro Atlanta area and owner of Balancing Thoughts Counseling Services. Chae is married to her husband Marvin and they are a blended family of 5 children (and one fur baby). Chae has a passion to assist individuals and couples in navigating life transitions, while working on their healing and improving their mental wellbeing.
Resources:
https://ywcaspokane.org/programs/help-with-domestic-violence/power-and-control-wheel/
https://ywcaspokane.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/2018-YWCA-Spokane-Power-and-Control-Wheel.pdf
Get in touch with Chae:
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Transcript
Introduction to New Season
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome back to season two of Outside of Session. I'm your host, licensed clinical social worker, and therapist BFF, Julie Hilton. This season, I'm interviewing some incredible guests who also happen to be experts in their fields. Mental health, motherhood, spirituality, and so much more, I can't wait for their stories to be told. These are all the conversations I'm having outside of session.
Focus on Domestic Violence
00:00:46
Speaker
Hey everyone and welcome back to outside of session. This week's episode, we're going to be talking about domestic violence, which obviously can be a pretty heavy topic, but it's one that I felt like really needs more attention and more awareness brought to it. With that being said, of course, I always like to give a bit of a heads up for anyone who might find this topic stressful or particularly triggering to take really good care of yourself as you listen today.
00:01:14
Speaker
I feel like the more conversations that we openly have about domestic violence and who it impacts, the more we help others to release the shame that they may be holding onto.
Guest Introduction: Shay Gardenhire
00:01:25
Speaker
And I'm eternally grateful for my guest today and my friend Shay Gardenhire for coming on to share with us today. Shay is a licensed clinical social worker and therapist in Metro Atlanta, and she is the owner of Balancing Thoughts Counseling Services.
00:01:41
Speaker
Shay is married to her husband, Marvin, and they have a blended family of five children, Gabe, Josh, Morgan, Caleb, and Michaela, and they also have a fur baby, Max. Shay has a passion to assist individuals and couples in navigating life transitions while working on healing their relationship and improving their mental wellbeing. Shalene, hello.
00:02:08
Speaker
Hey, thank you so much for being here on this Friday night that we're recording this. No worries. You know, we were talking, Shalene and I were talking earlier today about the fact that we have known each other for a decade now. Is that right?
00:02:26
Speaker
Yes. Ever since our hospice days, our hospice days. Yeah. Like I don't think I realized what a blessing that job was at the time. Cause I have ended up being friends with so many of the other social workers that I interacted with when I was there. So we've officially got a decade of friendship at this point. Absolutely. And I feel like our careers have overlapped a lot and now we're kind of in the same position of being in private practice. Yes. And
00:02:51
Speaker
It's interesting because like you said, and I don't know if you knew this, but you were very instrumental in me becoming a clinical social worker. I had no idea. You told me that the other day and I had no idea about that. You were one of the ones that gave me my first study material. Oh gosh, that was so long ago. I don't even remember that. I know why I would have encouraged you because I knew you were phenomenal at the time. So I was like, yeah, you need to do this.
00:03:19
Speaker
Yes. And so from that point, I was like, yeah, I got to let her know this because sometimes things happen and you don't realize that you didn't share that with those individuals. So yes. Yeah. Well, that means a lot to me. I appreciate that. Yeah, absolutely.
Domestic Violence Awareness Month Discussion
00:03:33
Speaker
So we're recording in October. So I know that this episode isn't going to be coming out in October, but we're recording in October. And we had, when I first asked you to come on the show, which thank you so much for being here and agreeing to it, I kind of cornered you a little bit.
00:03:47
Speaker
But when we were trying to think of a topic to discuss, you came up with the idea of, well, it's going to be October when we're recording. Why don't we talk about domestic violence awareness? Because that's what October is about, right? Yes, yes. So we're going to be talking all things about domestic violence. And this could be obviously a really hard topic. So I know that this is, I mean, it can be really heavy, right? But I think it's something that is, we've got to talk about this more. Yes, we've got to find these voices to get out there.
00:04:17
Speaker
Absolutely. I think so many women are suffering with this. And I say women because that's a high population, but also men in some aspects, but I definitely feel that this is something that should be discussed. And I'm glad to know that we are doing this in October, but it will air after us because it does
00:04:37
Speaker
doesn't happen in October,
Defining Domestic and Intimate Partner Violence
00:04:38
Speaker
right? That's right. Yeah. So for the sake of the show, I wanted to first of all to just throw out there that I actually looked this up a minute ago before we jumped on, because there's also another term called intimate partner violence. And I was looking up like what exactly is the difference between domestic violence and intimate partner violence?
00:04:58
Speaker
And just for everybody out there listening, we're kind of talking about both today, like anything that falls under the umbrella of either one. So domestic violence is anything that happens in your home with people that live in your home. So it doesn't necessarily have to be between a couple, it can be between a parent and a child, or vice versa, right? Like a violent child towards a parent, like if you have a violent teenager,
00:05:24
Speaker
Yes. But it can also be roommates. It can be siblings. It can be if you have cousins or uncles or anybody that lives in your house. Like that's what domestic violence is. It's anybody in your home. But intimate partner violence is always with a person that you're in a relationship with. And it doesn't matter if you guys live together. So it might not be domestic if you're not living together. But it's between two people that are romantically involved. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the community needs to know that because
00:05:54
Speaker
We put, we pigeonhole that violence on domestic, but like you said, intimate partner violence is definitely something that needs to be brought out as well. Yeah. Because I know, um, I'm just thinking about how so many of my friends, even in my college, when they weren't living with their boyfriend, they were, they were definitely being abused, you know? And so if you're in that kind of scenario, just know that, that you were included in this.
00:06:24
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Sadly to say, but yeah. Yeah. So I'm just going to kind of give you the floor because I know that you have spoken on this in a lot of different places before, so you can start wherever you want to start today. Okay. One of the things that I've come to learn as a therapist, but then also just as a person and talking with different women and, um, you know, teenagers that everyone has a story.
Shay's Personal Journey
00:06:52
Speaker
So I want to show the story of this this young girl who became a lady at some point. But her story begins as she was born into a loving two parent household. She is the oldest of her siblings, graduated high school and attended the college of her choice. She fell in love at 19 years old and continued dating
00:07:18
Speaker
that same guy until marriage in 1996. Through those years, she had three sons and developed in her career. In 2005, she entered grad school and then the problems began. So the curve ball came. She experienced emotional degradation, name calling, insults about her progress. There were intentional barriers placed where
00:07:46
Speaker
He became unreliable and not available. There was infidelity and then physical intimidation. From that point, the paradigm shift. She developed low self-esteem, questioned her self-worth, developed self-doubt, made a difficult decision to end her 11 year marriage. And then she earned a new title as a divorcee. However, through the years,
00:08:16
Speaker
with some work. Um, she actually developed a new normal, became a single mom and empowered woman, a motivator, embarked upon a new career, learned to appreciate life, became respectful of death. And then she became me. And so this is my redesign. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So,
00:08:45
Speaker
You know, one of the things that we talked about is just looking at, um, silencing the shame because never ever, never ever, you know, wasn't raised in that type of household at all. And, um, went to college and actually this was my ex-husband that was referring to, um, the father of my three boys. And I actually knew him since we were in middle school. And then we went to different schools and then,
00:09:14
Speaker
saw each other again in college. And was that like an Alpha Phi Alpha house party? And, you know, it was like, oh, yeah, I remember him. And, you know, ended up starting to date and things were pretty good through college, then graduation, moved to Atlanta. And then there you go.
00:09:39
Speaker
Things start to happen. A lot of infidelity, a lot of just degrading comments. But the thing about that, that came probably the last three years of the relationship. Listen to that.
00:10:01
Speaker
Very interesting. So first I just have to pause and say thank you so much for sharing your story. Absolutely. I knew we would be speaking on it today as a therapist, but this is your story as well. So no wonder you're so passionate about helping other women. It's because you've been that woman. Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is something I actually spoke at church recently on this and I
00:10:29
Speaker
The topic of that particular presentation was silencing the shame, but it was dealing with life transitions to show how the transition of where I was and then, you know, how things progressed and how I coped and all that, and just to kind of share that with women. But one of the things that I shared with them and the audience was kind of taken aback, I told them, of course, besides my boys, when I made the decision to finally leave, separate one divorce,
00:11:00
Speaker
It's interesting because not only were my boys my inspiration because I was like, they need to have at least one same parent, right? The women that I did not know, the women that were sitting in that audience that day, the women that are listening now were my inspiration as well. I literally had the thought
00:11:22
Speaker
I knew I would be a therapist one day. I just didn't know how I would manifest. But I literally had the thought that I could not sit in front of a woman and help to guide her. And then I go home and face this. So. Wow. Yep. Yep. Wow. True story.
00:11:41
Speaker
Yeah. And that's a tough one too, because I think that as therapists, we hold a lot of that, right? When we sit with clients, I know I have this thought all the time of, how can I help somebody with anxiety if I can't get my anxiety under control? Or how can I help someone who is facing this problem if I feel like I'm facing it as well? And it's such a reminder that
00:12:05
Speaker
A, being a therapist, you're human. You are fully human with your own struggles and your own issues. You know what I mean? Like the stuff that we all go through in life. But for you to have walked through that journey, that hell on your own and you being on the other side of it now, I cannot imagine how that has affected the way that you help women now.
00:12:30
Speaker
Absolutely. And you know, the thing about it, Julie, is that when I think about it, this was not the whole relationship. Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. Because I think that there's a lot of people that assume that a violent person starts out violent, right? No. So let me just give you a little history about it. So we were 19 and 20 at the time. So we were freshmen in college when we started dating. We were babies. The age of our youngest son right now.
00:13:01
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. And we went through life, moved to Atlanta, got an apartment, got pregnant with the first son, got married, and trudged on from there. When it began, believe it or not, was not until 2005. Guess what happened in 2005? What was that? I entered grad school.
00:13:28
Speaker
When I entered grad school, I started progressing. That's when I started noticing things. That's when things, I mean, the cheating, there was some cheating before that. So that was some, a whole different bag of things, but the emotional degradation,
00:13:46
Speaker
The physical intimidation, none of that occurred until I entered grad school in 2005. So before 2005, like every relationship probably would have said, yeah, there's problems, but it never would have crossed your mind that it would have been physically abusive this way. Nope, not physical abusive at all. And it didn't start with the physical abuse. It started with emotional. It started with the emotional. And I recognize now that it was a breakdown. It was a breakdown.
00:14:16
Speaker
of my self-esteem, my self-value, my self-worth, those things. But there were so many other things that were there that just wasn't right anyway, like the cheating. And financially, I was the breadwinner, so to speak. It was just a whole lot of stuff. And even his own mother said to me, I believe he's jealous of your progress.
00:14:42
Speaker
really rang high with me because I'm like, you know what? That explains the reason why it occurred at this point. That does it. And I always wonder if there is a thing, right? A shift like you talk about, like, is there a thing? And that could be
00:15:02
Speaker
One of many things, but probably a really big one at that time is his own insecurities, maybe being emasculated, something like that, to the point that he wanted to bring you down and break you down. Because you were kind of outgrowing him.
00:15:18
Speaker
I was outgrowing him. And the thing about it is, is that he was never one to work a nine to five. I mean, he even made that statement. I'm just not, you know, the type to work a nine to five. He was actually, um, really trying to make it in the music industry, hence moving to Atlanta and had had a few different situations that for whatever reason, never hit the brink of success. It was like it got to that point and then it flopped.
00:15:46
Speaker
And so as I think about it now, that's probably the reason why when I did start to flourish and I had started to really find my footing with career and knowing what I wanted to do. I remember one comment that, um, it was an interest I just shared with a friend other day. I remember him saying to me, you're supposed to be a family therapist, but can't even keep your own family together. Wow. That's such gaslighting, right?
00:16:14
Speaker
Because at that moment, I was thinking like, why can't I keep my family together? Well, guess what? That was a partnership and I could not uphold the partnership as a sole proprietor.
00:16:25
Speaker
Absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah. So, but that does make sense because I can imagine like you, you moved to Atlanta in your early twenties and you have all of these dreams. And if it doesn't happen within the first couple of years, it's probably not going to happen, right? Like in the music industry, by the time you're 25, if you haven't made it, you're probably not going to, right?
00:16:46
Speaker
So as he started to see maybe his hopes and his dreams slip away and all of a sudden it's like everything he had put into this career and it just wasn't happening. I'm sure, and this is by no means justifying it all, but I'm sure that there was a lot of insecurities and there was probably stress and all these other things. And then you've got someone who is supposed to be your partner, but they are having success in their career and they're growing and they're happy and they're learning and they're like, you're flourishing into this woman and he couldn't stand it. Couldn't stand it. Couldn't stand it.
00:17:16
Speaker
And the interesting thing is, is that I never, as therapists, you know how it is. We may want to diagnose someone without really formally diagnosing them, right? At the time, I just knew there was a lot of chaos around our situation. We were always on the hamster wheel. I remember going to have a conversation, like a meeting with him.
00:17:41
Speaker
writing down bullet points because we would always get off topic, off task. Yes. And didn't know what the name was at that time. But as I look back, I really believe I can't say he was narcissistic. I do believe he had very many narcissistic traits. Yeah. Um, because I was heavily gas lighted. I was definitely the supply. Um,
00:18:09
Speaker
He used the children and hung that over my hand Gaslighted our children to get to me. It was just all kinds of craziness, you know, so You know, I'm actually glad that you said that because I think a lot of people are looking for like like when you're in that place you're you're grasping for some kind of
00:18:33
Speaker
something like definite that you can put your finger on. Like if you could go to a therapist and have a therapist say, yes, this person definitely has narcissistic personalities to order. They are dangerous. You need to leave. Then it's like, okay, now I've, I've, I've got something definite, but there are a lot of people, like you said, who have narcissistic traits.
00:18:52
Speaker
Which we, we all can, right? Like we can all be a little bit, right? But there are some people that may never meet the criteria for a diagnosis, but that doesn't mean that they're not showing plenty of those characteristics, like the gaslighting, like you're talking about, that still makes them an abuser. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's something I did not realize. I just knew, and this is something I use my clients sometimes, I just knew we were always on a hamster wheel and
00:19:20
Speaker
like there was never an end to the chaos. And I recognized when I looked back that the reason why there was never an end because he never owned up to anything and took responsibility for it. It was always the blame game. I was always the fault of something. I'll give you an example. We went to therapy. I used my EAP this particular year and he wasn't working. He was yet again wasn't working.
00:19:51
Speaker
And I was trying to uphold a family of five. I mean, just, it's amazing. Just thinking back to that. And, um, I remember when we went to the therapist, one of the things that I spoke on was the fact that he just would not seem to get a job, hold a job. And it was really putting a lot of strain. And then eventually after that, probably two weeks, he got a job and
00:20:15
Speaker
He worked for this pest control company and we didn't go back to therapy. Well, the reason being is because we couldn't find the time to go back to therapy that will meet my schedule, his schedule. But what did he do? He blamed us not going to therapy on me. What he said was, he said, I knew all you wanted was for me to get a job. You weren't really concerned about the marriage and our marriage progressing. Um, well,
00:20:42
Speaker
One of the reasons why we were having issues is because I financially was just strapped. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So it became where he wanted to make me feel bad about not really wanting the therapy to progress the marriage, but yet wanting the therapy so that he could get a job. That just really didn't make sense. So yet again, the manipulation was there. Yeah.
00:21:12
Speaker
I have some, I have questions because what I'm thinking about is I have heard so many women say, I wish he would have just hit me.
Understanding Emotional Abuse
00:21:28
Speaker
Because if it had just been something that I could say, I know for a fact this happened, I would know to leave. Which if that happens, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be as clear cut as you think it is going to be. But for so many people, the abuse is mind games. Yeah.
00:21:48
Speaker
And they have such, like when they say that they're almost saying like, I wish it was just something that I could call abuse. But so much of it is gaslighting, manipulation, playing games, twisting your words. And a lot of times there's a slight bit of truth in there or something will slightly make sense. And so it makes you feel like you're the crazy one. It makes you feel like
00:22:15
Speaker
Am I overreacting? Am I being dramatic? Am I not being supportive enough? And so it, I'm saying all that to say like so many other times you walk away from an argument or a fight or something, or even if you're trying to have a productive conversation, right? And you've got your bullet points and then you leave and all of a sudden you're like, what the hell just happened?
00:22:33
Speaker
Exactly. And you walk away feeling like, am I in the wrong? Do I need to work on this? Am I not being a good enough partner? Am I somehow causing this change in him? You know what I mean? You walk away feeling like am I have a problem?
00:22:48
Speaker
And so that's what I'm saying is a lot of women would say if it had just been something physical, I could have said that I know that I'm not the problem with that. Now, again, I'm not saying that it gives you that clarity if it does progress to physical violence, but in that moment, it kind of feels like it, right? So can you speak a little bit on that about how
00:23:08
Speaker
Intimate partner violence is not just physical and sexual. So much of it is the breaking of the self-esteem, the causing a lot of chaos and confusions to where you doubt yourself because that's what they weren't, right? Absolutely. And so what happens is when you know that, okay, I'm not getting hit, it's not sexual manipulation, it's more so the words. If the words make you feel less than,
00:23:39
Speaker
It's emotional manipulation. If the words are degrading you, calling you out your name, making fun of your career, downplaying things, it's emotional manipulation. If the words are to the point where you're questioning your sanity, it's emotional manipulation. Yeah.
00:24:04
Speaker
And you would also define that as emotional abuse, right? Absolutely. Emotional abuse. Anytime any of those things are going on and you don't feel like yourself and you're questioning things and you are ashamed if it's done in front of other people, you're ashamed of what was just said to you by your partner or someone that's supposed to love you, right? Yes, it's definitely emotional abuse. It is.
00:24:35
Speaker
I'm just so glad for you to define that because I think so, so many people are in relationships where, I mean, I've even had clients ask me before, is that abuse? And I lean on the side of, if you have to ask, then some lines have already been crossed. Lines have been crossed. Because you don't typically ask that question in a healthy, non-abusive relationship.
00:25:03
Speaker
Yes, because the thing about it is you can feel, so this is what I've always leaned on since I've learned. You can feel when there's love.
00:25:14
Speaker
because love has a certain feeling, like it feels good. You get the butterflies, not the scary butterflies, like you're making a mistake, but the butterflies, like this feels really good. Those endorphins are lighting up in your brain, right? And so you really, you would know the difference. If it's something that's causing you to question things, something's wrong. I have a saying, when I turned 50,
00:25:44
Speaker
I'm telling my age, but that's okay. I'm blessed. When I turned 50, which was actually three years ago, I did 50 nuggets of wisdom or something like that. You remember I did that on social media? And so one of the things that I remember coming up with is a gut feeling is an instinct alarm. Don't snooze.
00:26:12
Speaker
And the reason being is that we all get that, right? We all get that spidey sense tingling in our gut. And how many times have we ignored something and we end up getting burned?
00:26:25
Speaker
People listening to this podcast have heard me say a dozen times that one of the first things or one of the main things that I see in trauma as a result of trauma is we stop trusting ourselves.
00:26:42
Speaker
We stop trusting our gut. We question our ability to read situations correctly. We question our ability to make good decisions for ourselves. We forget how to trust ourselves when we live through trauma. Absolutely. And you're just reaffirming that like
00:27:02
Speaker
your intuition, your gut, it is there for a reason. You gotta listen to it. You gotta listen to it. We were all born with an instinct and that's the thing about it. When we have that, that's that nudge to say, pay attention to me. We may not know what it is at the time, but just trust it. Just lean into it. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what you were saying a minute ago about feeling loved,
00:27:30
Speaker
I have, I have been in relationships before where, um, it is completely, like when I think back on it, it's so different than my relationship with my husband. When we argue, because arguing is not bad. Arguing is not abuse. Arguing can be like, there's such thing as healthy conflict, right? Absolutely.
00:27:52
Speaker
but I have never not felt loved. I have never felt the shame that you're talking about. I have never felt like I was put down, degraded, like you said, called out of my name. There was never an attack on my character. And those are the kind of things that I think people like, it can be hard to sort through the gray area because anger can bring out like not the best in us, right? But I like what you're saying about like,
00:28:22
Speaker
Even in the hardest times in a healthy relationship, you're not going to question some of these very basic things. Absolutely. Exactly. Um, one of the things I do when I, when I have my couples therapy sessions, I always talk about fighting fear. I always talk about never hit below the belt. Once you hit below the belt, those are things that are ingrained in that partner's mind and memory.
00:28:49
Speaker
that a lot of times are hard to forgive because there's such hurtful things that are said. There's such evil things that are said.
Empowerment and Legal Action
00:28:59
Speaker
For the point where if you do that, there's a whole lot of work, if it can be done, that has to be done to get back to a level of being able to trust, respect, all of those things. And that was one of the things that I recognized with my ex is that
00:29:17
Speaker
there was not a level of what the trust was already shaky because of the infidelity on his part. I'm happy to say didn't even happen on my part. I just wasn't, that just wasn't who I was. But what I can say that it did get to a point where I did have to file a temporary protective order because of some physical abuse that, yeah, that ended up happening.
00:29:45
Speaker
Oh my gosh, I can remember the date. October, let me see. October 6th is when this happened and went to church on, that was a Saturday, went to church on that Sunday, October 7th, played the part because in my mind I knew I was going to the sheriff's department that Monday morning and filing a temporary protective order, TPO. But I played the part because for one thing,
00:30:13
Speaker
my children never knew that any of that had happened because when it happened, I went back upstairs, I cleaned myself up and I was like, I was not going to allow them to see that because I did not want them to experience that. That's, that's another reason why I didn't call 911 because that would have been emotionally traumatizing for them. So I was thinking that all the time. And then, um, that Monday morning I got up,
00:30:40
Speaker
The only person who knew where I was going was my sister at the time. I told my sister where I was going to be heading. And so she knew, but yeah, she had taken some pictures of the back of my neck because he had put his hands around my neck and all this stuff and scratched me up. And I filed that TPO. So that was October 8th, 2007. That was the last time we had lived together. But let me tell you how the narcissistic traits that I believe he had and has,
00:31:10
Speaker
Um, worked two weeks later, we had a hearing in court and a domestic violence advocate was with me and what have you because of what I had filed. And do you know that he thought that he was shocked that I was not dropping those? Yeah.
00:31:29
Speaker
those allegations and everything. And I was like, are you serious? So just totally in the dark about, and once again, not accepting accountability and responsibility for that. But this is when I started to regain some power and things of that nature because I started doing the work.
00:31:49
Speaker
Yeah. But you know, even as you were saying that I was thinking how, just how unfair that is that you needed to be able to call 911. But the burden that you as a mom carry to say, I will put myself second so that my kids don't, so that they're not traumatized by this, you know, that in all of this, that your main concern was still them.
00:32:17
Speaker
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it's still and that remained the same because even before I did this conversation with you, I shared with them to let them know that I was going to do this because I'm now just starting to be able to speak this truth and not be shamed by it. But I wanted to let them know so that I can make sure they were OK with it, even though they may not ever hear it, you know.
00:32:46
Speaker
But at the same time, I just wanted to make sure that they knew. And they're going 27, 24 and 19 now. Oh yeah. Hey everyone, I just wanted to pause for a quick moment to say thank you so much for all the love and support that you're showing outside of session.
00:33:08
Speaker
If you haven't already, do me a huge favor and hit the subscribe button. Give me a five star review and share this podcast with all of your friends. Help me take this show to another level. Now back to today's episode. So one of the questions that I'm thinking is that for your story, and I think that this happens a lot, it was such a slow progression. I know 2005 was kind of that turning point.
00:33:36
Speaker
But I think that that happens a lot where it just builds over time.
00:33:43
Speaker
And I think that that makes it harder almost to recognize when it's happening because something may happen one time and then it doesn't happen again for a few months. You know what I mean? And so there, there's a lot of a feeling of it's an isolated incident. Um, it was just a really bad day or we got some really bad news or, you know, something like that where people
00:34:09
Speaker
It's like the frog that's in the pot of water. Have you ever heard that? And they don't realize it's getting hotter because they got in it when it was cold, right? So it's getting hotter and harder and they don't even recognize it. And I think that that happens a lot in relationships where like you've been together for a decade in the beginning, it was fine. And it wasn't in your until your seven or eight, like you said, before it gets to that point. Um, and by that,
00:34:31
Speaker
by that point, you do, you have children together, you've got mortgage, you've got like your entire lives are connected with each other. So what I'm getting at, my point of this is how do you go about untangling from that? And what was your process when you decided, like, what was that point for you when you said, I've got to get out of this. This is, this is just going to get worse. I've got to get out of this. How, what was that moment like for you? And how did you get there?
00:34:59
Speaker
I think the biggest thing for me, what really helped me was the knowing that I was leaving something that was dangerous for me. Now, I didn't know it at first, of course, but then as things started to progress from the emotional manipulation to the physical, I knew that something wasn't right. Then there was also this look in his eyes when he would
00:35:26
Speaker
say certain things that just didn't seem like it was him. So I just, in my mind, I'm like, he's not well, right? And I knew that I could not keep my children in that. So, and then I told you, like I said, one day I was going to do therapy and I couldn't be on the other side of a woman telling me these same types of things. And then I'm providing guidance, but then going home and being hypocritical. So those were all the things for me.
00:35:56
Speaker
And then my, just my spiritual life. I mean, I prayed and I asked God to show me signs and things like that. And when these things started to come about, I paid attention. I didn't ignore it. Yeah. Yeah. And I did do therapy. I did do therapy and I recognized when I was in therapy, I think I was in therapy with her a couple of months and she didn't say a whole lot. I did all the talking. And then when I looked back,
00:36:26
Speaker
I recognize, wait a minute. I'm thinking it was my job. I'm thinking that it was school. I'm thinking that it was this, this, this, and I recognized that every session I was talking about him and I realized it was my problem.
00:36:44
Speaker
So, um, this morning I posted on my Instagram, a little poll to say that this is what we're going to be talking about today to get some Q and a, or we're going to get to all of them in just a little bit, but that actually ties into one of the questions now, which is what are some red flags to look for? Yes. So what I mentioned earlier, when someone makes you feel less than when someone, of course you would know if someone hits you, that's not appropriate at all.
00:37:13
Speaker
Like, no, we are not supposed to be hit by anyone, right? When you feel like there's never any resolve to a problem because that other person is not holding themselves accountable, when you have things thrown at you, when you have, you know, I remember some financial manipulation where I woke up one day and my
00:37:41
Speaker
my debit card was gone because he took my debit card when I was asleep to go buy him some cigarettes. What? This is my meaning. So any of those things that you know that doesn't sit well with your gut and you're having to question it, red flags. And I say this to my clients all the time, burnt orange are also a version of red.
00:38:06
Speaker
No, I love that because we, I talk about that in a lot, a lot of therapy too is like, what are the yellow flags? Right. And those are the ones to keep an eye on. It may not be red right now, but it has the potential to escalate. Right. So that's a really, really good point is pay attention to when is yellow turning to burnt orange?
00:38:27
Speaker
Yes, which then turns to which Yeah, that's a really really good point Yeah So for you when you made that decision To get out For a lot of a lot of women. I think there is a feeling of like, yeah, I know I need to but I feel like I can't and that and that's terrifying right because there's
00:38:53
Speaker
there's so many things to consider. And so I know a lot of people can be really just like judgmental and completely removed. And they say, well, why doesn't she just leave? And that's so ignorant, right? Because if it were that easy, a lot more women would, but when you've got children and there's all different kinds of abuse, um, dependent on him, things like that.
00:39:18
Speaker
The threat of taking the children, the threat of getting you fired from your job, the threat of cutting you off and being isolated, the threat of increased abuse, right? So when there's that fear there of, I want to be able to leave, but I feel like I can't, how do you guide women through that?
Support Systems and Resources
00:39:41
Speaker
I think one of the biggest things, it's not easy. I always acknowledge that. I know that it's not easy.
00:39:49
Speaker
If you don't have a support system, there are agencies out there for that. There are, oh, I forgot the name of the organization, but they can put women in hiding. There are all types. If someone who's listening is a woman that's dealing with something of this sort and you're working, most employers have employee assistance programs to where they have legal aid.
00:40:18
Speaker
they have therapists that you're able to speak with and this is all covered by the employer or there may be a small fee if it's like legal aid or something. But those are the things that you can do is find a trusted organization or a trusted friend, family member that you could possibly flee if you have to or have that support from.
00:40:43
Speaker
Yeah, so that's another question that someone asked. Actually, I think this was actually my question. How can you support a friend who you recognize their relationship is
00:41:01
Speaker
abusive or maybe you're just concerned. Maybe your friend has an awareness of how bad it is or maybe not. Maybe they haven't even gotten to that realization on their own. Um, but I think for me, what I've, when I've actually had a friend in this situation before there was that fear of, if I push too hard, she'll stop telling me what's going on. That's very true. Yeah.
00:41:24
Speaker
And I didn't want her to think that I was judging, but I also didn't want her to think, um, if she was in that place of feeling like I can't, I didn't want her to think that I was going to like push her and cause problems in their relationship and make it worse on her. Right. So how do you support a friend that maybe you even see how bad it is and they don't, um,
00:41:51
Speaker
The biggest thing is letting that person know off the bat that you love them and that you want to see them happy, whole, and healthy, and you want the best for them, right? And then from that point forward, asking for permission to provide your input.
00:42:12
Speaker
That's very important because- Oh, I love that. Asking for permission, do you mind if I share this with you? Do you mind if I share my concerns with you? Let me know if you feel that I'm getting too opinionated or too pushy or whatever words you want to use, because I don't want to sabotage the friendship over what I'm feeling very strongly about. Yeah.
00:42:40
Speaker
And then even be honest with that person and letting them know that you're having some challenges with even maintaining some of your opinions because you care so much about them. But you also want to respect their decisions because you're right. I remember this. I remember not sharing any of these things with anyone except for my mother-in-law at the time.
00:43:10
Speaker
because I felt I was going to be judged or people were going to tell me I need to leave it. I didn't need that. I didn't need that extra stuff in my head. I needed to make the decision. And when I did make it, I shared. And so that's the thing about it is that if that person is not ready and even letting them know you may not be ready just yet to do what's best for you according to what I'm seeing. But when you are, I'm here.
00:43:42
Speaker
And so it's just open honesty. I mean, we are all biased when it comes to people that we love, right? But I like what you're saying too, because maybe that's a good thought to have is when you go in to share your concerns,
00:43:59
Speaker
maybe not saying, I think you should leave because that puts a pressure on the person that they have to either let you know why they're not or why they're not ready, or they might feel a pressure from you that the only way that they can make you happy is if you agree to leave, right? So maybe that's not even what you put on the table is in an opinion about them leaving the relationship. Maybe it's just, Hey, I want to
00:44:25
Speaker
see some things that I'm seeing that it looks like a red or a burnt orange flag for me. Yeah. Without any advice at that point of what should be done about it, but just speaking to what you're seeing and saying how I think, I think this is something to be concerned about. Absolutely. And I think too, something I've learned about myself, especially as a therapist and when it comes to being a friend or a sister or what have you,
00:44:54
Speaker
I'm a problem solver. You give me a problem, let's try to talk about the steps to get to a resolution, right? But I've come to learn that everybody is not ready to solve the problem. And that's difficult for me. So what I've had to share even recently with the situation is that I can't attach to this right now. I'm going to have to take some space from it because
00:45:21
Speaker
You're coming to me with the same thing consistently. And I hear you, we're talking about it, but at some point in my rational brain, I think so that I'm rational. I'm trying to help find the resolution to this problem. And when we're not, we're on a hamster wheel. I have a heart. I get dizzy on a hamster wheel.
00:45:49
Speaker
I have a hard time being there. So I want to jump off of the hamster. So, um, so just, you know, just trying to be as open and honest. And sometimes you may have to separate yourself from that friend enough to take care of you because when we are emotionally attached to someone, it's very difficult for us to not feel what they feel.
00:46:13
Speaker
or even stronger. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let me look at some of the other questions we got. Um, okay. So the first one I got was, do you believe people can change? I do. I do believe people can change. If you're, if we're talking about the, the perpetrator. Yes. Yeah. I assume that's what they meant. Yeah. Yeah. So I do believe that they can change. It's just a matter of you deciding if you
00:46:42
Speaker
are wanting to be in the space with them, however you need to be, or if you can accept their change from afar. So. I feel like your answer to that is so much kinder than mine. Because that's the thing is, because I've actually had a client ask me that before. And my answer is, yes, of course I believe people can change or I wouldn't be in this profession, right? So yes, people can change, but it is not your duty to be there.
00:47:12
Speaker
for that change because I think about how like if there is something about me that I want to change, it is such hard work to change. You have to really want it and you have to work at it and you have to want it for yourself. And if that perpetrator is not wanting it for themselves, if they're doing it to smooth things over for a little bit, it's not going to be lasting change. It's not actually going to happen. And so when you think about like how much work it would actually take on their end,
00:47:41
Speaker
If they recognize it. If they have to recognize that they have to want it and they have to be willing to work for it. And of course I think that can happen that I do not think it is your duty to sit around and wait for that to happen.
Can Abusers Change?
00:47:54
Speaker
Not at all. Take care of yourself. You can even forgive from afar. I've forgiven my ex for what he's not. I don't like him, but I've forgiven him, right? Because at the end of the day, he is the father of my sons.
00:48:10
Speaker
if anything happens to him, they would be hurt. And when they're hurt, mom's hurt. So I don't want to see anything bad happen to him because it will affect our children. So they're that bond in between us, right? So yes, people can change. However, you don't have to be there, like you said, to witness the change or even to accept the change. Do you?
00:48:39
Speaker
your life moving. Yeah. Your focus has to be on your healing, not on their change. Absolutely. Okay. Another question was, how do you know? And I got this question a couple of different times, kind of worded in different ways, but how do you know when enough is enough? And I think they're looking at like, how, how bad does it have to get? That's different for every person, right? Okay. Um, meaning.
00:49:09
Speaker
There are some people who like when I was in my situation, I do feel like my self-esteem was shot with that. I don't know why it was shot, probably just because of the different years of cheating and me comparing myself to these women that he cheated with. So I just diminished myself. Right. However, some women would already have that self-esteem and know the first sign of any emotional manipulation. They couldn't take it. Some women may take them.
00:49:39
Speaker
that emotional stuff that turns into physical. Some women may have the emotion that turns into physical that they have to get themselves together financially before they can leave. So I really can't say that this is when you should know enough is enough. What I can say is if you feel that this relationship is no longer serving you, you're not benefiting from it.
00:50:03
Speaker
you find yourself being unhappy, dissatisfied, consistently having to question things. That's science moving towards enough. I'm going to tell you case in point, watch the movie with Jennifer Lopez enough. I remember that movie and all the things that she had to deal with and go through and, you know, I mean, she took it to the,
00:50:31
Speaker
She learned all this stuff and hid in his house. I'm not saying do that, but you as a woman or man should know when you have reached your brink. Okay. If it's causing you to act in a chaotic way, like I can remember a couple of situations where I, um,
00:50:57
Speaker
you know, would throw something across the room or something. That's not who I am. That took me out of my character. Those are things that I recognized that no, I was turning into someone else and that's not who I wanted to be.
00:51:14
Speaker
Yeah, I like that. I always like it when we make it individual. And I think a lot of times when people are asking that question, what they're really asking is, is this enough for me to leave? And again, like if you're asking that question, then you probably already know what the answer is. Because if the if the answer is like a
00:51:39
Speaker
If it's a blanket answer for everyone of when it gets this bad, you have permission to leave, then you're just waiting for it to escalate. That's true. Yeah. And if you, if that gut instinct that we were talking about earlier, if your gut is already telling you that it's enough, don't wait for it to get to that point. Absolutely not. You can go ahead and give yourself permission to say this is enough where it is now. Yeah, absolutely. It's an individualized thing.
00:52:06
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. The last question was, um, what do you wish you had known when you were in the thick of it? I think the biggest thing is, um, really knowing more of me, like I lost myself. I lost myself in the midst of everything because I allowed myself to be lost. So this is one of the things I always say.
00:52:35
Speaker
The breakdown of the relationship was not totally his fault. I also contributed to it. And the way I contributed to it is I was trying to be the cool wife. I was trying to be this person. I was trying to, you know, just go with the flow. I didn't stand my ground. I didn't put any boundaries up. I didn't have any standards for myself, right? Didn't even know that I should have.
00:53:03
Speaker
And so those are the things that I really wish I would have known because this could have been a whole different situation. Not seeing that I was still with him. We'll talk to you later. Bye. Because his personality was what it was and is what it is. But I think I would have come out of this stronger initially. My strength was delayed. It happened like it should happen. As we know, things happen as they should.
00:53:32
Speaker
But I feel that if I had have known those things in the thick of it, I could have come out of it with more strength sooner than later. So, that's what it is.
00:53:51
Speaker
One other thing that I wanted to throw out there is, so I'm gonna put any resources that you have for women, whether it's like crisis lines, anything like
Forms of Abuse: Power and Control Wheel
00:54:02
Speaker
that. But one thing that I'm gonna put in the show notes too is this, is this resource called the power and control wheel. Okay.
00:54:13
Speaker
So a lot of people when they think about domestic violence and intimate partner violence, they think about physical and sexual violence. And so this wheel on the outside, it's got what some of those look like.
00:54:29
Speaker
things like hitting biting kicking things like that but on the inside it's got these different categories which are different types of abuse and I want to read those off because I think a lot of times again like I'll have clients that they're actually really confused about like is this abusive or is it not right so this will has a
00:54:48
Speaker
one of them being dominance. Um, and so that's when you're like, um, the abuser is treating you almost like a servant. Um, they make all the big, the dis big decisions that act like they're the master of the house. They're the only one that gets you to find the roles in the relationship. Um, then there's economic abuse, which is, um, financial abuse, like we talked about before. So they either prevent you from getting a job. Um, they,
00:55:16
Speaker
Let's see. They blame you if there's any kind of financial trouble in the house. They take all the money or they limit or remove your access to the family income, which is a huge one. Like I know so many women, they don't even have access to the bank accounts. And so when they are thinking about trying to leave, they don't have any money to be able to physically leave, right? Right.
00:55:39
Speaker
There's also spiritual abuse, and I actually see this one a lot. They manipulate religious texts to demand obedience, to justify physical abuse, or even to coerce a partner into having sex by citing that it's a God-given right. And that one is even in the Christian community, I see that happening all the time, right?
00:56:02
Speaker
Um, and you know, there's a lot of people that don't believe in spousal rape because it's, it's, again, that's the, the God given, right. Um, let's see. Yeah, absolutely. Yes.
00:56:17
Speaker
Then there's also isolation Where of course they isolate you from your friends and family they control what you do and who you can see That's when you're usually saying like a lot of jealousy to justify those actions There's minimizing denying and blaming Where like you were saying like they're denying that the abuse even happened they're making light of it They're gaslighting it they they shift the responsibility for their abuse They say you caused it
00:56:46
Speaker
Yes. Then there's a category that is children and reproduction. Um, so they, they try to make you feel guilty about the kids or they use the kids to relay messages. They use visitations, even if you guys have already separated, they're using visitation to harass you. They threaten to take the kids away. Um, even, I thought this was interesting. Sabotaging birth control is a form of abuse, um, forced pregnancies. Um,
00:57:15
Speaker
force you to get pregnant so that it impacts your work or limits your freedom. And then there's, they've even got categories of like cultural abuse where it's saying that it's culturally like normal to have the woman not work outside of the home or things like that to prevent them from being able to be able to support themselves. Support themselves, my goodness.
00:57:40
Speaker
It is interesting how they get into depth about like the different types that it's harder to name it I won't go through the rest of them as much detail, but there's using immigration status like they're Not willing to do the paperwork you need to be able to stay in the country. There's coercion and threats There's intimidation and then there's emotional abuse. So I'm gonna put this wheel on
00:58:01
Speaker
Um, the website that I was looking at is YWCA spoke gain.org. So I'll put that in the show notes too. So people can look at that because I think it's really important to put some language into just because, you know, if you're waiting for that threshold to be, Oh, if he, if he actually hits me or if there's an actual physical abuse, that's how I'll know that I'm leaving. But there are lots of abusive relationships that never turn physically abusive. And it doesn't mean it's not one that you need to get yourself out of.
00:58:30
Speaker
Absolutely. I think it's so important for the audience to recognize that abuse can come in many shapes, sizes, and packages. Really. Yeah. Yeah. And I like what you said in the beginning too, that we're using a lot of language as if it's a heterosexual couple with the man being the abuser. And you're absolutely right. Women are statistically higher.
00:58:59
Speaker
It is to be abused, but this could be in homosexual relationships. This can also be reversed where the woman is the abuser too. So I don't want to leave anybody out of this. Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I know you're just getting to a place of being able to share this more openly and I hope that this is
00:59:26
Speaker
I think that, I think that God has probably put on you recently to be sharing so that you can be a voice and help other women know that they are not alone in this. And I think that, you know, I've seen you in the past few years happily remarried, um, in a very awesome relationship. So just knowing that there's a lot of healing on the other side. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I, you know, what I've learned from my, from my current husband, um,
00:59:55
Speaker
is that relationships don't have to be hard. Amen. Oh my gosh. I mean, they should be fun. Yes. Now do we agree on everything? Absolutely not. But we agree, disagree in a loving way. Yeah. So that's the important thing. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for being open.
01:00:19
Speaker
to have in this discussion, because this was a great platform for me to do so. Absolutely. Yeah. So glad you're here. OK, before we go, I'm going to ask you the question that I've been asking all of my guests. And I guess you kind of answered it a little bit earlier. But if you could go back to your younger self, probably at even a younger age, maybe even a kid, and tell her one thing, what would you want her to know? Ooh. To know that she is loved.
01:00:50
Speaker
First of all, by God, then by her children, by her husband, family and friends. And by herself now. Oh yeah, that's right. I am loved by myself. See how we easily do that? But I think that that's been such like a huge piece of your story is that in all of your healing from this, I think you've learned to love yourself.
01:01:18
Speaker
Yeah, I really have. I mean, to be honest, and I know I didn't say that initially, but at the, at the brink of it, um, loving myself is actually behind God loving me for me. So I'm going to say that again and going more about editing this out, but God, myself, my children, my husband, my family, and my friends, I actually might need to put God
01:01:46
Speaker
than Max, my dog, then me. He loves his mama. I did not know you were a dog person, too. Yes, yes. And he's right here laying down like he does when I'm doing dog in the office. Right by your side. I know it. So I definitely say that. That's one of the things that I do share with the women that I work with is we end up talking about, no matter what it is, self-love.
01:02:16
Speaker
and I have a self-love challenge that I always provide them that I encourage them to do over and over again. So yeah, love it. It's nothing like loving yourself. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here today. I think that's all we have. So I hope everybody enjoyed listening to this episode and just the gratitude I have with you for sharing your story and just being so vulnerable here. I just appreciate that so much.
01:02:41
Speaker
But if anybody wants to connect with Shalene, I know that she is on social media So I'll post all her contact information in the show notes so that you guys can connect with her And we'll put some of those resources there as well. But that's all we have for you guys today I hope everyone has a good week and we'll talk to you next time. Bye
01:03:06
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Outside of Session. Remember, while I am a licensed therapist, this podcast is not a substitute for individual therapy. The contents of this episode are for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you are having a mental health emergency, please dial 911 for immediate assistance or dial 988 for the suicide and crisis lifeline.