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Bisexual Married Men: Rene
4.7k Plays11 months ago
It's the final interview (for real!) in this series on Bi+ married men. But first -- I'm starting a coaching practice! I specialize in helping LGBT+, queer, questioning, and non-monogamous people navigate their identity and relationships, but I can coach you in any area of your life in which you feel stuck. For the first 20 minutes of this episode, I give an overview of my new practice, what coaching is and isn't, how I can help you create awareness and meaningful change, and how to sign up for a free intro call if you're interested. (TLDR: visit my website)
After that, enjoy an interview with Rene (aka Nelson), another subject in my book, Bisexual Married Men: Stories of Relationships, Acceptance, and Authenticity (out now), back on Two Bi Guys for the second time. Rene's story is unique and layered, but it also features common threads that many Bi+ men have experienced – though we often feel like we’re alone.
There are 20 minutes of bonus content with Rene, plus full video of this interview and entire series, on Patreon.
Thanks for listening to this series on Bi+ married men and for the lovely feedback on my book. (If you're enjoying it, please leave a review on Amazon or wherever you bought it!) Stay tuned for the continuation of book season with a few more Bi+ authors. Thanks for listening and supporting my work!
Visit my website to learn more about the book, press, and events
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Book Connection
00:00:00
Speaker
🎵
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome back to two bye guys to the final episode in this series on bisexual married men connected to my book bisexual married men stories of relationships acceptance and authenticity it's been an amazing season a little different than usual i hope you've enjoyed these real stories from the real guys
00:00:34
Speaker
from my book. I'm so grateful to all of them for opening up both for the book anonymously and now not anonymously on the podcast. We'll get to the final interview in a few minutes. It's with Rene. His name is Nelson in the book. His story is so interesting. I love chatting with him. And then after this season, technically I still am in the middle of book season of interviewing other bi authors.
00:00:59
Speaker
I'm a stickler for 10 episode seasons and I want to get back to that because I'm a little OCD about that. So we have four more episodes left to round out that season.
Launching a Coaching Practice
00:01:10
Speaker
I already have most of those interviews scheduled with some awesome authors coming up. I'm excited for that. Some repeat guests who you've met before.
00:01:18
Speaker
But before we get to all of that, I wanted to take a few minutes today to tell you about what is coming up for me over the next couple of months. And basically, I am starting a coaching practice. I'm very excited to get started with this. I am just about finished with one of the most recognized life coach training programs in the country. It's called IPEC, stands for Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching.
00:01:42
Speaker
It's wonderful. I loved it so far. I am already a member of the International Coaching Federation and very very shortly in February I will be certified as a professional coach. I think this is important because life coaching is a growing industry. You've probably seen many people on social media talking about this
00:02:03
Speaker
But the industry is extremely unregulated. You don't actually need a certification to be a coach. You can just kind of say you're a coach. And many of those people may be helpful to you depending on what their experience is. But for me, going through this training was incredibly important because I learned about what coaching is and isn't and how to actually serve you
Coaching Philosophy and Queerness
00:02:27
Speaker
guys.
00:02:27
Speaker
and not just tell you what I think but find the answers that are already inside of you which fits with my ethos of what queerness is because it's about you deciding the world you want to live in and how you want to move through it. And so while I do believe there's a natural fit here and I'm naturally inclined toward this and I was kind of already doing a lot of coaching type things without fully realizing it like this podcast. More on that in a minute.
00:02:57
Speaker
I have learned so much by going through this training and everything I've learned will help me to support you, my clients, so that you can achieve your goals and live your best, most authentic life, whatever that looks like to you. And so maybe you've listened to this podcast and you like a lot of it, but not everything about what I think is authentic to what you think. And that's what coaching is about, is about you. So before I get more into what coaching is and isn't,
00:03:25
Speaker
Let me just talk about why I'm getting into this. And the main reason is I was kind of already doing it without realizing it. And I think that there's something in that of it is a natural thing for me to pursue. And I really enjoy it. I started this podcast because I enjoy it and wanted to have these conversations. And I feel similarly about this. I was doing these kinds of things informally already.
00:03:53
Speaker
And now with the training and the formal stuff, I think I can be even better and serve you guys
Podcast Origins and Purpose
00:04:00
Speaker
even more. So one of the things that coaches do to build an audience is they start a podcast. This is obviously not on my mind when I started this podcast five years ago. I basically just wanted to listen to something like this. It didn't exist. And so I created it. I wanted to have these conversations. I wanted to share them.
00:04:19
Speaker
Because I really do think that bisexuality and gender fluidity are much, much more natural and common than our society leads us to believe. And the best way to change things, in my opinion, from from where I stand is to talk about it, to be visible, to share these stories. And so that's why I started this. But over the last five years, this lovely community has been built around this. And I've heard from so many of you and I know you guys have connected with each other more and more as
00:04:49
Speaker
fluid sexuality becomes more accepted. And while the podcast, I hope, is a great resource of information and diverse experiences, it isn't necessarily tailored to you. And so I know that many of you are thriving. I love that. But I also know that many of you are still struggling with some of these issues. And that's what led you here in the first place.
00:05:13
Speaker
And I get a lot of DMs. A lot of you have told me your stories. And I know that even for those who have accepted and embraced your own queerness, there can still be struggles with partners, with family, with friends, at work, with society at large. And of course, this podcast can't necessarily address all of that individualized stuff. It can't address each individual person.
00:05:40
Speaker
But coaching can. Coaching is about you. And more on that in a minute. So then I started working on this oral history project connected to the podcast,
Impact of Coaching on Interviews
00:05:50
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which has turned into this book. And as I went along, I started hearing from the participants that talking to me was actually helpful. And they learned a lot. And I was shocked at first. I was like,
00:06:04
Speaker
Why was it helpful for you? They were helping me with this project that I was doing. I was collecting their stories. I didn't know what it was, but to me, they were helping me. And so I did not really think about how the process could be helping them.
00:06:22
Speaker
But then I got into this coach training program at IPEC and I realized why. Coaching is essentially about asking open-ended, empowering questions. It's about taking the time and space to reflect on our lives, to discuss your struggles honestly in a safe space where you can be completely open and non-judgmental.
00:06:44
Speaker
And it's about creating awareness of what is really going on in your life, especially things that are confusing or you feel stuck. It's very difficult to create that awareness by yourself. It's not impossible. It's just difficult because we don't often take the time to really go through this stuff.
00:07:04
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But when you talk to someone else, when you say these things out loud, it becomes real. I think Austin said something like that in the last episode. It becomes real and it clarifies your feelings when you hear yourself say it. It feels true and you can't exactly deny your feelings the way you can when it's all
00:07:25
Speaker
up here in your head. And it brings these deep-seated thoughts to the surface and forces you to reckon with them, which can be difficult, but is a great thing. So I realized that to a certain extent, that's what I was doing with these oral history interviews. I was asking open-ended, empowering questions that created more awareness in my interview subjects. And they were able to use that awareness to understand and in many cases improve their lives, even though
00:07:54
Speaker
in those interviews, we didn't necessarily get to the other aspect of coaching, which is about creating action plans for the future, thinking through how you can make changes to what's going on. But still, we did that first part, which is the foundation, which is creating awareness.
00:08:13
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And that is the most powerful aspect of coaching. So looking back, I totally understand now why these men found the interviews helpful for them. I thank them for doing it, but I'm glad they got something out of it. And if you've been listening to this podcast, you may know I am a genuinely curious person. I really like to learn about people, what makes them tick.
00:08:36
Speaker
So I asked questions that made them think. And that curiosity combined with my understanding of queer issues, my compassion for those going through this stuff, partially because I have been through it myself and I know to some extent what it's like, that created a safe container to be vulnerable and authentic.
00:08:57
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for these guys. And that can be hard to find in your daily life, that kind of container. It can be a lot to ask another person. But in coaching, that is exactly what we do. And I have found that I love to do it. I'm really fascinated by the clients I've had and the issues that come up and helping them work through it. I love seeing them make progress. I love learning about people.
00:09:20
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and finding out what's blocking them and how they can move forward. And so if you are looking for a space like that, coaching could be worth considering.
Coaching Approach: Non-Judgmental and Individualized
00:09:30
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And so that's why I'm doing this. It seemed like a natural fit. I was already doing a lot of it without realizing it. I sort of like to be curious and ask these kind of questions to my friends or family when they're going through stuff. But
00:09:44
Speaker
I'm still so glad I went through this training and that didn't just jump into coaching because I am so much more skilled now at actually helping clients for a few main reasons. I really had to learn what coaching is and isn't. So let's talk about that. I kind of mentioned it, but the biggest thing is that coaching is not about giving advice.
00:10:06
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That is what consulting is. And in a sense, that's what this podcast can do for people. I often have guests on with a lot of knowledge and experience, and we do give advice. I mean, we try to speak from our experience, but it comes off as information and advice, and hopefully you take what works for you and you leave behind what doesn't, and you get something out of the podcast.
00:10:30
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But that is not what happens in coaching. It will be very different from listening to the podcast because it's not about me or my guests. It's not about what I think. It is 100% about you. So I approach coaching from a completely non-judgmental place.
00:10:47
Speaker
If you're not in the same space that I was, if you don't have the same worldview I do, that does not matter at all. Your worldview is your worldview and I respect that and I've come at it completely non-judgmentally. I will not try to analyze your story and tell you what I would do if I were you.
00:11:06
Speaker
If that's what you're looking for, that's not what coaching is. You can hire a consultant. But ultimately, if I did that and told you what I'd do if I were you, that will not lead to meaningful change in your life. Trust me, I've been coached that way and it doesn't work. It has to come from within you to create meaningful lasting change.
00:11:27
Speaker
So rather than give advice, together we will explore you, your thoughts, your beliefs, your feelings, your desires, your goals. And I will simply ask you a series of empowering questions to create that awareness about what's really going on for you.
00:11:44
Speaker
and to unlock the best path forward for you. Coaching is completely individualized to the client. I will not push any agenda. I won't try to convince you to do anything the way I did it because the most lasting change comes from within. So every session, I will ask you what you want to work on. What is your goal in today's session? Why is this goal important to you? Things like that. That's how we'll start every session. And so you will be driving what we talk about every time.
00:12:14
Speaker
Coaching is also about figuring out why you've been stuck. Maybe you're feeling stuck. Maybe you're feeling confused. You're not sure the path forward. You may already know your goals and have tried to get there, but maybe you just can't do it and you can't figure out why.
00:12:30
Speaker
Often, people make assumptions or interpretations about what's going on, or they have limiting beliefs that prevent them from seeing other possibilities. And I will simply help you explore those things. We'll talk through what it would be like or feel like to accomplish those goals, why they're important to you, which can help unlock new pathways.
00:12:51
Speaker
And though coaching is not therapy, and there's some crossover, but for many things, I recommend a therapist. I've always talked about the importance of therapy. These are adjacent fields, but they're not the same. And so even though coaching is not therapy, we will talk through some of your fears, which may be totally valid to protect yourself, but can also be rooted in past experiences that may not happen again.
00:13:18
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and we'll examine how those fears might be holding you back. So no matter where you want to be, I think that I can help you move forward and make change in your life.
00:13:28
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But because this is so individualized, there's only so much I can say without talking to you. It really depends on each person, what you'll get out of it, and if coaching is right for you.
Inviting Listeners for Intro Calls
00:13:40
Speaker
So with that in mind, I would love to talk to you. I've just finished, literally just finished my classroom learning at IPEC. I've had a ton of practice hours coaching already. My final exam is in February.
00:13:52
Speaker
But I am ready to talk to you. I'm ready to open this practice and tell you more about what I do and to hear your story and tell you how I might help you. So I'd love to do an intro call with you, a 25 minute free intro call, if you are potentially interested in being coached by me.
00:14:11
Speaker
As it happens, I need to conduct 10 of these interviews to pass my course, so you will be helping me out as well. I appreciate that. So on my website, robertbrookscohen.com, you will find a tab for coaching. I think it's robertbrookscohen.com slash coaching, but you can find it there. And there you will find a sign up box. I believe it will be an email sign up, and then I will send you a link to schedule the call as I have space for calls.
00:14:37
Speaker
So if you don't get the email right away, just be patient and I will I will be in touch with everyone who signs up in the email box. But obviously I can't do an unlimited number of these calls right away. I can't coach an unlimited number of clients. I'm going to start relatively small and I don't really know how much interest this will be. So if you are listening to this when it comes out and you're interested, head over to Robert Brooks Cohen dot com to sign up right away.
00:15:04
Speaker
So there is no obligation to sign up for coaching after this intro call. The call is designed to help you figure out if it's right for you. However, I would ask to please only sign up for the call if you are at least open to being coached by me. If you know you don't want to be coached right now, that's fine.
00:15:22
Speaker
You can always sign up later if you can't afford it right now. I know it's not cheap. I understand and there will be more group coaching opportunities later and maybe you'll be ready for individual coaching later.
00:15:35
Speaker
But at the moment, I would like to do these intro calls with people who are at least potentially ready to be coached. You don't have to be 100% sure, but at least open to the possibility. I will also mention that my pricing will not be going down. It could go up in the future. So get in now if you're interested. And I understand the price point may not be available for everyone.
00:15:58
Speaker
But as someone who has been coached myself now and who's been in therapy for many years, which is not the same but related, I just know that the value is there. This really can be transformational in your life if you're ready to dig in and if there are changes you've been wanting to make. And so I know that it will be valuable for you if you choose to do it and if the need is there.
00:16:21
Speaker
but stay tuned for some workshops I may offer and group coaching and other kinds of classes that I will offer in the future, which will be more affordable.
00:16:30
Speaker
So whatever you are struggling with, consider signing up for an intro call because I can coach about anything. Maybe it's something related to this podcast, maybe it's not, and that's okay. Whatever you're struggling with, I can help.
Exploring Coaching Topics: Sexuality to Lifestyle
00:16:44
Speaker
So if you are just starting to understand your sexual fluidity and want help figuring it out, this is for you. Maybe you've known about your sexuality for a while, but you haven't been able to come out and you want to work through that.
00:16:56
Speaker
Maybe you are married and you want to work on how this is affecting your relationship or how you're showing up with a partner or maybe you haven't come out to the partner and you want to navigate how to do that and work yourself up. Maybe you're thinking about non-monogamy and you're not sure how to approach that either solo or with a partner. Maybe you're afraid to even mention it to the partner.
00:17:19
Speaker
Maybe you are beginning to explore your gender. Or maybe you're struggling with something outside of this realm entirely, which I can help with. Obviously, sexual and gender fluidity and relationship styles are my specialty, my niche, because that's the world I have been in for many years. But I can coach you on anything. In my coach training and practice coaching, I've been tackling a wide variety of issues and the empowering, curious questions. They work the same way.
00:17:48
Speaker
So if you're struggling in your job, if you're figuring out your life purpose, if you want to eat healthier or exercise more or work on body image issues, if you want to boost your creativity or be more productive or go to sleep earlier or change your living environment or you're having difficulty as a parent or dealing with other family members,
00:18:09
Speaker
if you're questioning your religion or spirituality, and I could go on and on and on and name a bunch of things, but whatever it is you want to work on, I can help. So that's all for me about this. For now, I am really excited to begin this coaching practice. If you are interested, head over to RobberBrooksCohen.com, click the coaching tab,
00:18:30
Speaker
sign up for the email list and then a free intro call. And I will keep you posted on this on the podcast throughout as my coaching practice develops. So if now is not the right time, stay tuned and I will be ready for you when you are ready.
00:18:44
Speaker
And now, the final interview in this series on By Married Men. He is the eighth of the 13 interview subjects in the book, so we got a majority of them on here. I was really happy to talk to Rene again. We had a really interesting chat, and there is more on Patreon. There's some fun stuff in there. I highly recommend it. But without further ado, here is my interview with Rene. Enjoy.
00:19:18
Speaker
you
00:19:23
Speaker
Hello, everybody. Welcome back.
Renee on Marriage and Sexuality
00:19:25
Speaker
I am here with the final interview in this series on bisexual married men re-interviewing men from my book. And I'm very excited to see and get to chat with Renee, aka Nelson, in the book. One of my early, early interviews. He is back now years later. Welcome to Two Bye Guys, Renee. Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be back.
00:19:48
Speaker
Yeah. So you've actually been on Two Bye Guys before, is that right? Some years ago, yes. Yeah. So this is our third or fourth or something interview overall.
00:20:00
Speaker
Welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for being part of this book. I know a lot of people are getting lots of stuff out of your story. And so you were one of the first people I interviewed actually way back in that summer of 2020. It feels like forever ago and it also feels like yesterday. So the first thing I want to ask you is just like thinking back
00:20:28
Speaker
What was it like for you at the time to be interviewed about all this stuff? What did it do for you, if anything? I guess it made me rethink a lot of my growing up, being married, then going through the separation of divorce, maybe realize a lot of things about myself, not just my sexuality, but the growing up I had to do, rethinking a lot about life, especially
00:20:59
Speaker
being single. I was like, yeah, I was technically never single from high school after high school to, I would say maybe 42, 43. I was in a long-term relationship. I had a little bit of time here as a single person that started dating, then not dating, then dating, then not dating.
00:21:23
Speaker
A lot of mental growth, even still to this day, is a lot of growth, a lot of understanding how relationships work from what I was used to. Yeah, so it's been, I don't wanna say, not a roller coaster, but yeah, ups and downs.
00:21:42
Speaker
Yeah, I get that. I hear you. And I'm glad you've been on that journey of growth. It makes sense. When we examine this stuff, then you have more awareness of yourself and then you reflect and grow.
00:21:57
Speaker
I mostly today want to talk about you and like where you are today. But for those who either, maybe for those who haven't read the book yet, can you tell us sort of the brief story of your marriage? Because the book is about bi men married to women. I know you're not married anymore. But can you tell us sort of the brief version and how your bisexuality played a role in that relationship? Yeah, I was married for
00:22:25
Speaker
I want to say about 13 years, possibly 14, I don't recall the exact timeframe, but we were days right out of high school. So we were pretty much together for, let's say almost 20 years, lived the straight life to everybody else outside of my wife, outside of my close friends, I was straight.
00:22:49
Speaker
I didn't experiment anything after high school with a guy. Internet came along. I started exploring a little bit more just visuals from reading stories to pornography. Really never meeting with the guy. All my fantasies were again on the computer or if I had a dream. That's how I live.
00:23:18
Speaker
curiosity, their dreams, their books, their porn. It wasn't until some years, I guess, closer to the once the marriage started going down that I met a guy, experimented. But at the end, even as I joined my relationship, I knew that I was curious to know what it was like to be with a man. Did it affect my marriage?
00:23:51
Speaker
I want to say there were nights that after a while I was not wanting to be sexually with my back then wife. Having kids, marriage became still, became a routine. I think that added as well to my curiosity more and more being with a man, especially again with the internet, the chats, the availability through apps. But again, not taking that step to be with a man until I actually met with somebody.
00:24:21
Speaker
Yeah, we became close and I did have an affair with the man. And what happened after that? Separation. Then I met my current boyfriend back in 2019, my first real same-sex relationship, having to grow, having to understand
Renee on Evolving Identity
00:24:44
Speaker
the
00:24:47
Speaker
a different type of relationship, not because we were the same sex, but a new person. I was used to same routine, same process, same day to day with my ex versus dating somebody else. Also understanding the gay community, where we read what's online. I would say I did a lot of my research at a very young age, right after high school.
00:25:12
Speaker
with internet. I did my own research from the cruise into the STDs to sexual practices and stuff, but it wasn't to actually put it to use where everything came along. Like I tell people, the gay community is big, but yet we're still very
00:25:39
Speaker
divided, you know, which to me is a sad part where, you know, even for myself, when I look for a partner or even just a random person, it's, you know, you have your expectations of what you want that person to look like. You know, we talk about division in our own community, the gay community, but yet,
00:25:56
Speaker
we do it ourselves you know so that's a lot of lot of that i've had to learn as well um another thing in learning that i'm older and it's harder to make friends as well um recently um going to the same club my partner that my partner works at uh we met another couple where you know you when you're used to meeting guys at the club it's usually they want to have sex with you and there's actually some people that want to have a friendship with you
00:26:24
Speaker
you know, which is something different, something that I guess for me is kind of weird as well because the only way that I meet guys is through the app and the only reason why we meet on the app or majority of the app is to have sex. So of course, it's the shifting a lot. Again, understanding where, as I've mentioned to you, is how do I define my sexuality nowadays? You know, it's
00:26:49
Speaker
You're told when you're gay, you're gay, you're gay, and bisexuality doesn't exist, and it's always just tug, you know, even with them myself, like, when we check the boxes off with the actual orientation, there's usually just straight, a gay, bisexual, lesbian, or now is not sure sometimes. I guess that's where I stand at now, where I prefer, just don't label me, but,
00:27:17
Speaker
I'm shifting kind of towards that queer side again, where yes, I'm bisexual. Yes, I have sex with men. I enjoy it. But how do I define myself? It's a little bit different. Interesting, interesting. I want to come back to that in a minute about the identity stuff, but but I also want to hear about your relationship. So is this you've been with this partner now? Is that the same partner you're still with the one you mentioned? Yes, yes. So we've been.
00:27:46
Speaker
you know just like in your relationship understanding each other a lot of work um as I know it's a lot of work um but we've made the decision to move in together I I do have kids which the kids are aware when moving together um it's been a great relationship um like like any other relationship I think what I really enjoy
00:28:07
Speaker
The most is the guy to guy interaction, the guy to guy from going to the gym to the workouts to hanging out. We do a lot of outdoor stuff when the weather's nice, of course, been in Chicago. I really enjoy that. That's something that even in high school or just through life, I lack the male to male interaction. So.
00:28:32
Speaker
being with the same sex partner, that's the one thing we can wrestle. At the same time, we're cooking, we're cleaning.
00:28:42
Speaker
It feels nice, but yes, we've had ourselves to do some growing. I know I've had to do some growing. I'm still growing a lot, learning, understanding how a relationship works, understanding how a relationship works with somebody different or somebody else, aside from my long-term relationship, how that works. Right. What is different about that with the new person?
00:29:07
Speaker
We're just different people. Like I told them, and I told all the people, it's with my long-term relationship with my ex-wife, we were right out of high school. So we molded ourselves to each other, molded our lifestyles around each other. So we, I guess, complimented a lot each other. From the music to the food, just to relax it to the family thing.
00:29:36
Speaker
We already know what to do next. And what my new partner is, we're both different people. I'm a little bit younger than I am. That doesn't really affect me because music from food to the hangout, we're very similar, but at the same time, we're very different.
00:29:56
Speaker
Interesting, cool. And I know before we got on this, you mentioned therapy and stuff like that. What do you think is different about you and how you're showing up for this relationship versus the other one?
00:30:12
Speaker
Be more vocal. That was my main thing. Be more vocal, less passive-aggressive. But yeah, I've learned to be vocal with what I want. I'm still in work in progress a lot, very often, or I just tend to stay quiet and not say, this is what I want, this is what I need, or I get stuck in my head a lot. And it's not good, it's not good.
00:30:41
Speaker
That's a lot that I've had to learn with therapy and talking, being vocal about my wants and needs. Right. That makes a lot of sense. It's not easy to talk about that kind of stuff authentically and we're scared a lot of what we want and what we need. But if you don't say it, then the other person doesn't know and they have to guess. Correct. Yeah. And what's your relationship like these days with your kids?
00:31:09
Speaker
It's getting better. It's a little by little of another work. My daughter's 17, my little one's eight. It's been work, especially living with my parents, where my parents tend to, I don't want to say pull them, but being living with your parents, you know, I guess I'm an adult, but yes, they treat me as a child. So, um,
00:31:36
Speaker
And my kids are two teenagers, so they don't want to hang out with the father. They want to do their own thing. My daughter has a boyfriend. My middle one is going to become an eighth grader. It's going to be an eighth grader very soon. So he's starting to be himself as an individual too. So it's getting better. They've known my partner since
00:32:01
Speaker
It'll be five years or maybe about four, especially the two other ones. I knew them a little bit later than my little one, but they know we're dating. I've asked them how they feel. They're comfortable with that. If you see us hanging out, we're like two fronts. We're not all over each other. There's not much PDA, especially around the kids. My little one has seen it a lot more than my two other ones, but I think it's just
00:32:30
Speaker
them getting used to us as well. But no, there's no questions at all from my kids about my sexuality. And I've asked them, some years ago, if they were ever ashamed of my sexuality, they both said no, which felt good, which feels good. Yeah, that's awesome. I'm glad we're out to them and they're accepting. That's beautiful.
00:33:08
Speaker
Okay, let's go back to what you talked about, about identity and the label you use. And like you said, you're kind of moving a little bit away from the term bisexual or even any of those terms, gay, straight, anything, and gravitating more toward you're just you with no label or maybe queer. What does that mean to you to move toward that?
00:33:35
Speaker
I guess with all the divisions now, with the sexualities now, it seems like every year there's more and more, what's the word? We're breaking little things more into more subcategories. There we go, subcategories. I don't identify with a lot of them. I just feel that, again, if someone asks me, well, I still identify as being a bisexual man. But again, that term, for me, it's,
00:34:07
Speaker
I don't know what the right word is, I just, my thing is, even when I came out to people, my thing is, I'm just me. I'm just me, though. Why? Why? Oh, this is Renee, this is my sexual guy. Even at work, or even at functions, where, oh, he's gay, he's, I'm like, ah, no, I'm not gay. Yes, I still.
00:34:27
Speaker
would, if I was interested in you female wise, I would want to sleep with you or have a relationship with your own guest. I am physically attracted to you because you're a woman. But again, it's always either you're straight or you're gay to the community out there. It means the straight community, the gay community, we're gay, we're gay, we're gay. I think it's like, well, no, we're not gay. So I guess a lot of that too. And again, it's just how I feel, I guess.
00:34:54
Speaker
If I had to put a checkmark, it's bisexual, even though I may see it someplace here and there, the queer, but I don't technically, wouldn't say I'm queer either. And maybe it's just environment as well, where my partner and I have found other venues, other clubs where it's not technically
00:35:19
Speaker
a gay club it's a bar and you're comfortable with majority art straight but yeah you are there you do see um some uh gays a little bit of lesbians uh in those clubs and you're comfortable they everybody makes you feel comfortable uh i know we went a couple months ago to see the Janelle Monae who um i think she considers herself uh pansexual or back then um and it was just
00:35:45
Speaker
the fluidity of the people that were there, that just how they dress, they don't dress as your norm or your typical person. They're just comfortable in whatever they wear. So to me, it's like, okay, yes, I might dress my polo or t-shirt, but it's being comfortable in a different environment where it's not labeled as a LGBT friendly environment, but yet you know it is. I guess that's what has gravitated me to the queer side.
00:36:15
Speaker
You see all realms of different, from attires to people from different areas of the communities.
00:36:24
Speaker
Yeah, that answer makes total sense to me and I love that those kind of spaces also where like it does sometimes feel like any label is gonna box people in and to me like bisexual should be this expansive thing and queer
Experiencing Queer Spaces
00:36:41
Speaker
is more even more like an expansive anything goes diverse thing but in the perfect world
00:36:49
Speaker
It doesn't need a label because anything is possible. And so I agree. I love spaces like that, whatever they're called. I'm curious, though, because it's awesome you found those spaces. The Janelle Monáe concert sounds like the perfect sort of
00:37:07
Speaker
pansexual fluid queer space. But you also mentioned the gay community a lot. Do you feel yourself now with a male partner sort of more in the gay community sometimes and or do you have to actively search for these more quote queer spaces or what's what's that like?
00:37:29
Speaker
we even honestly women's church a little bit more of a queer area a little bit i would say uh the fetish style as well uh from leather to um just the kinky stuff where we're trying to explore again it is limited even in a big city like chicago we have a few clothes but um i think as well as how
00:37:54
Speaker
the crowd, the crowd of nights. We have, I wanna say Chicago, we have, let's see, about four to five big nightclubs in general, and they all have their own type of, from the music to the type of people that go there. And we may fit here, we may not fit there, or even I guess maybe that we're getting older and we're kind of tired of the same type of music. I don't know, like for me, when I see my partner the other night, it's,
00:38:22
Speaker
I know in Chicago we have, as far as I know, one Latino based gay club. I've never been in it. The one time I went it was like a $20, $30 comfort charge and I thought there was alcohol included like no so I didn't go.
00:38:40
Speaker
Technically, the majority of Latino clubs are going to play a particular type of music, which I'm not too fond of it. So my thing is, where can I find a club where they'll play all variety of music? Mainly, even if it's just all Spanish music, I want a variety, not just a particular style, same thing with English.
00:39:00
Speaker
up to date with the top 40 hits, so I don't know the music. I'm an okay dancer, but again, it's just where I feel I fit in. Again, there's clothes where our gear tours, let's just say example, there's clothes that are just gear tour jocks, or just bears, or just
00:39:21
Speaker
So again, just to all other community, so I don't fit into all of them. So to me is finding and we found some places where they play.
00:39:31
Speaker
new wave music or it's 90s night. There is a particular club in Chicago which is not in the gay community and that's one of the places where I would say it's queer friendly or a lot of queers go there. Sounds bad to say that but a lot of queer people do go there because you see from your straight people you do see a little bit of
00:39:55
Speaker
You'll see a couple of same-sex partners, and everybody's just comfortable, everybody's accepting, everybody's respectful.
00:40:06
Speaker
Love it, beautiful. Yeah, I look for those kind of spaces too where I feel more comfortable and I found them, but it's not always easy. Sometimes they end up being sort of one thing or another and not as expansive as what I really enjoy. Or even just sometimes your body, if you're not fit,
00:40:31
Speaker
It's you know, it's not for you or you and I mean usually the Bears they're a Variety, but again, it's just how you go. I've walked in it's a couple clubs. I'm like, yeah, this is not for me. Let me walk out I know one time I was in for is it not for Lauderdale? No further north if somewhere Florida walked in and they were paying Pink Floyd and Rolling Stones and there were a lot of older a lot of older men and I'm like
00:41:01
Speaker
Yeah, this is music my parents hear. These are not the type of men I wanna hang around with. So I walked out, I walked in, we walked out. There's been clubs that we walked in and it's just either the type of music or the people that are there, you don't feel comfortable or you don't feel it's, that's not the night for you. And we walked in and walked out. Yeah, yeah. Makes sense, good for you and knowing what works for you and what doesn't rather than just like trying to make it work. Yeah.
00:41:37
Speaker
Is there anything you're still struggling with these days related to your sexuality or masculinity? That's a very good question. Thank you. I would say sometimes maybe just fitting in, finding the right. Yeah, I would say fitting in or finding your friends.
00:42:06
Speaker
My new friends, they have a similar interest in you. Again, majority of the time I've met guys just to hang out. It's just sex. I call it unofficial days where I'm trying to make a friend. We go out to eat and they're expecting something more. I'm like, yeah, no. I just wanted to hang out. I just wanted to have dinner and drink and that's it.
00:42:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think to finding the friendship, friendship. It's the hardest thing. My partner and I, we're both very, honestly, we're not athletic, but we're active. From the gym to the hiking, a lot of the people that we met, they work overnights. So it's hard for them in the mornings, they're tired. But we're getting there. So we met a couple that are,
00:43:03
Speaker
Again, they just want to hang out. They want to hang out. They want to play cards. They invited us to dinner. And to me, I'm like, oh, wow, they don't want to have sex. It's just kind of odd. But I'm cool. This is what we both have been wanting. Somebody to hang out with. Even in the summertime, we've tried to do the meet with friends. And we did a couple of times, but it's always hard.
00:43:26
Speaker
People work schedules and stuff like that or their interests their lack of interest. Oh, I don't like this I don't like that and it's it's common I guess is as well if I had if with my straight friends, they're always busy but Yeah, I would say and then finding events Finding events mainly for Latinos or just
00:43:53
Speaker
people of color, especially like in the leather community, I've tried to get in contact with a couple of people and they start and then they finish or they don't continue the conversation. I've actually reached out to somebody in DC. How did they get into the leather community? He's like, well, I just kind of did it on my own. I just did it on my own. He's exploring. With the COVID, I think that changed a lot because I know before COVID, there were a lot of
00:44:16
Speaker
Um, like one-on-one leather, one-on-one spondage and stuff like that. I have not found any of that stuff to explore fetish wise. Um, you find other things that are very common, very, a lot of one-on-ones out there, but I'm like, what about the other type of fetishes? Um, I would say that's pretty much all maybe, I don't see a struggle, but it's hard to find stuff that caters to stuff that I want to stuff, newer stuff that I would love to explore. Yeah.
00:44:43
Speaker
That makes sense. Even though that stuff is out there, it is kind of hard to connect with the right thing for you sometimes and the right people to go with or to explore it with. It also makes sense what you said about friendships. And I think that in the LGBT community, a lot of these lines get blurred of sex and friendships and romance and emotional connections. And in many ways, that can be great. But it also creates this thing of like, well, what
00:45:13
Speaker
Where are we? What is this for? Like, maybe sometimes you don't want it to move from one to the other. And so it can be a little bit difficult to navigate sometimes depending on what you are looking for. Yeah. How does your partner identify if you're comfortable answering for him in terms of sexual? Yeah, bisexual as well. Yeah. Cool. And what has that been like to be with a fellow bisexual?
00:45:46
Speaker
I've recently recently read on Twitter that bisexual I I think yes you and I've discussed it about this before that Bisexual and actually we're we have great sex and I think that's the No Again we don't You know, you always hear who's the man in a relationship who does this and to us it's
00:46:13
Speaker
We don't know just because oh you're a little bit more masculine this way and you're living now I don't think for either of us. It's never Who's the man who's who's the top who's the bottom? Who's doing the cooking who's doing it clean? I think we all share the roles equally I think just just as any straight relationship for example of my parents of course a straight couple sis couple my mom
00:46:38
Speaker
My mom knows how to paint, my mom knows how to repair things in a home whenever it was the summertime with my mom.
00:46:46
Speaker
But my mind, we always painted. We always change some some fixtures here and there. So even with them, it was never over. You're the woman. You cook and clean. Yes, she does that. But she also does some of the typical man job. And my dad, yeah, my dad's the man. My dad, you know, he would do the cars and he was the man of the house, paying the mortgage and all that. But even like some of my partner and I, we don't say, well, OK, we're
00:47:15
Speaker
You're a little bit more masculine, you gotta do this more than I do know. I think we don't have roles like that. I think for us, we're both masculine in our own ways. I usually paint my nails. I don't think he does much of anything like that, but I paint my nails, I wear pink.
00:47:44
Speaker
That's about it, I would say. Well, I think we're just two typical guys. I mean, if you saw us in the street, you would just say, hey, there's two typical guys. That's it.
00:47:59
Speaker
Love it. I love it. And I did an episode last season about dividing stuff in the home. And it is true, according to this book, that bisexual people are more likely to divide things evenly and to not be set in certain scripts of this, the man does this, the woman does this. But when you look at gender differently, you actually just talk through things and start to divide things more evenly.
00:48:27
Speaker
And yeah, bi people are better at sex. That's the bisexual advantage. How do you guys approach monogamy or non-monogamy if you're open to sharing? Yeah, I mean, we have an open relationship. I know my end, I struggle a little bit more. I think
00:48:52
Speaker
As much as we were sexually active, our libido is high. We have some friends that come over here with a threesome and they're good, but could we be in a monogamous relationship between him and I, maybe temporary?
00:49:17
Speaker
Maybe, I know you've tried it in the past. I know there's times that, hey, it's been two weeks, three weeks. I told them I'm gonna get to the point where I feel comfortable where we actually share stories or share current stories. I mean, hey, last week I was with this person. And we do talk about past experience. I don't know how recent they are when we do talk about them. But again, that's something that,
00:49:44
Speaker
getting comfortable with or trying to get comfortable with. But again, lately we've been talking about trying to find a woman to share with or have her experience to bisexual guys, which I feel a lot of women should, you know, because I think they're missing out on that, you know. But again, it's finding a woman that's okay with it.
00:50:10
Speaker
Cool. Any women out there, if you're listening, you can DM her today. You'll be very lucky if you do. We've tried a couple of times and it was no because of the reason, not because she wasn't interested. It was not the right time, not the right place pretty much, but you're missing out on something very good.
00:50:34
Speaker
I know, I know. I love women who love bi guys because they know what they're talking about. They know what's out there.
00:50:52
Speaker
Thanks for listening to this episode with Renee. There are a few more minutes coming up right here, but there is a lot more on Patreon. I'm not exactly sure how many because I haven't edited it yet, but it's at least 15 minutes. I think it actually might be closer to 20 minutes or more. We talked about OnlyFans and alt Twitter, and we've opened up about that kind of stuff.
00:51:15
Speaker
You should listen to that if you're interested. I think it was fun. There's also full video of this entire interview and this entire series on Patreon, plus that bonus content. So head over to patreon.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen. It's only $5 for all that content and you get early access to everything in the future too. And now here are a few more minutes with Renee. Thanks for listening.
00:51:49
Speaker
What are you looking forward to in the future in any area of your life? All right. Now our plan, we don't have a set date, but again, we're supposed to be moving in together, the kids as well. I think within the next month or two. So that would be the thing.
00:52:08
Speaker
Moving moving in possibly marriage. Hopefully marriage. I don't know Just growing growing and learning that's my thing growing and learning and keep moving forward, you know, we're not Excuse me. We're not getting any younger
00:52:27
Speaker
Well, yeah, no, we're not. That's unfortunate. But that's awesome that you're moving forward and thinking that way. Okay, last question. It's been my final question for everyone. How does your sexuality, your fluidity, your queerness bring you joy? Well, I can be myself.
00:52:53
Speaker
100% I can explore. I said nail polish if I do that Wow, that's actually yeah, I mean I would say maybe exploring different worlds from the straight world to the gay world to Finding people from different areas. I mean maybe it's not much of a difference but Just being more comfortable with myself Being able to be myself
00:53:20
Speaker
without having to hide this or having to hide that. I think that's the main thing where if I was in a straight, if I was still living a straight life, I would have to hide my sexuality, have to hide painting my nail polish. Every now and then I do eyeliner. You know, if you see that, if a straight man is seen like that, either you're a rock star or you're a question. You know, but I think it's,
00:53:52
Speaker
just be myself and comfortable with myself. Yeah. I love that. And it's like it opens up these possibilities, right? That didn't maybe didn't used to be there.
00:54:04
Speaker
Beautiful, beautiful. Well, thank you so much, Renee. It was really nice to see you again. I enjoyed our chat as always. And this may be our final interview for a while. So I just want to thank you again for being part of this project that now spans almost four years and for being part of this book that I think people are really going to learn a lot from your story. Congratulations on getting the book.
00:54:33
Speaker
Yeah, thank you, thank you. Couldn't have done it without you and everyone else who participated. Thank you all so much to those who were vulnerable and shared their stories. And I think Renee, you and the others are, I mean, it's really an inspiration to what it can be like to be vulnerable and share this stuff. And as you say over and over, to really just be yourself. Yep. That's what it is.
00:55:02
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Thanks for today and take care. Thank you everyone. Two Bye Guys is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Mincer. We are supported by the Gotham and we are part of the Zencaster Creator Network. Visit patreon.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen for bonus content, early access, and exclusive video episodes. Thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys.
00:55:32
Speaker
Mm hmm.