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Exploiting The Cracks In Male Solidarity
24 Plays3 years ago
Lilith shares her chaos agent strategies to sow discord when working among men.
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Transcript
Introduction and Topic Origin
00:00:06
Speaker
What's up, queens?
00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome to the Female Dating Strategy Podcast, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet.
00:00:11
Speaker
I'm Ro.
00:00:12
Speaker
I'm Savannah.
00:00:13
Speaker
And I'm Lilith.
00:00:14
Speaker
So today we're going to tackle a topic that was much requested after Lilith sent out a tweet.
00:00:21
Speaker
Actually, where's the tweet?
00:00:23
Speaker
I can't remember what the tweet was, but the tweet was something like, I want to do an episode called Exploiting the Cracks of Male Solidarity.
00:00:30
Speaker
Hold on.
00:00:31
Speaker
Let's find the actual tweet because it's pretty funny.
00:00:34
Speaker
This is so true.
00:00:36
Speaker
Okay, okay, I found my tweet.
00:00:37
Speaker
On September 7th, I tweeted, I want to do an episode like Exploiting the Cracks in Male Solidarity because male solidarity is really not as strong as Rad Tweet makes it out to be.
00:00:47
Speaker
And I mean, I got a bunch of like private quote tweets that I can't read.
00:00:51
Speaker
Like there's seven quote tweets on that and none of which I can read.
00:00:54
Speaker
I have no idea what's there.
00:00:56
Speaker
Probably incels.
00:00:57
Speaker
They block you.
00:00:58
Speaker
Or femcels.
00:01:00
Speaker
Yeah, and femcels.
00:01:01
Speaker
Like, I kind of hate that feature of Twitter that people can have you blocked and still retweet you.
00:01:05
Speaker
Yeah, quote retweet you and stuff.
00:01:07
Speaker
Like, there's a certain segment of rad tweet or rad fem Twitter that they have me blocked, but they still quote tweet me whenever they see a tweet of mine that they don't like.
00:01:17
Speaker
And that invites all the other, like, rad tweet femcels to pile on.
00:01:21
Speaker
And then it's like a whole thing.
00:01:22
Speaker
And then I get like 40, 50 private quote tweets.
00:01:25
Speaker
And I'm like, what the fuck are you guys
Exploring Male Solidarity
00:01:27
Speaker
saying about me?
00:01:27
Speaker
And so...
00:01:28
Speaker
So basically, this episode is in response to that tweet, because there was a lot of people who requested us to talk about how do we exploit cracks in male solidarity.
00:01:38
Speaker
And I wanted to say the reason why I tweeted that is because I've just been really enjoying the past few months, this process of playing two of my male managers like off of each other, you know, because chaos is a ladder and I'm climbing that ladder.
00:01:50
Speaker
I want more women to understand that, like, yes, like, male supremacy is a problem.
00:01:55
Speaker
Yes, like, men do have solidarity with each other.
00:01:58
Speaker
And I'll define male solidarity in a moment.
00:02:00
Speaker
But it's not something that's insurmountable.
00:02:03
Speaker
And on an individual level or on an individual level.
00:02:04
Speaker
interpersonal level, it is actually very fucking easy to like, so chaos, create division and so on among men, because like, they have a sort of natural competitiveness with each other, they have competing interests.
00:02:16
Speaker
And once you identify those competing interests, it's very fucking easy to break that solidarity between them.
00:02:21
Speaker
On Twitter, all I ever see is doom and gloom shit like, women have no solidarity, we're never getting out of the patriarchy, men's solidarity is way too strong, we're never going to overpass that.
00:02:31
Speaker
And it's like, stop admitting defeat, sis, okay?
00:02:33
Speaker
We are winning.
00:02:34
Speaker
It may not seem like it, but we are on the way to winning, okay?
00:02:37
Speaker
And it's hard.
00:02:38
Speaker
We are facing so many obstacles when it comes to overthrowing male supremacy, but it is not impossible, and we're already in the process of winning.
00:02:45
Speaker
So stay tuned.
00:02:46
Speaker
Yeah, so pay attention.
00:02:47
Speaker
Pay attention.
00:02:48
Speaker
Listen up.
00:02:49
Speaker
Lilith is going to give us all the inside tea about how to be a chaos agent.
00:02:53
Speaker
Yeah, how to be an agent of chaos and patriarchy.
00:02:58
Speaker
And dismantle my all solidarity.
00:03:00
Speaker
Exactly.
00:03:01
Speaker
This is actually like a legit war strategy.
00:03:05
Speaker
I had a blog basically where I was talking about feminist realism and implying like principles of realism to feminism.
00:03:12
Speaker
And I kind of abandoned that for a while.
00:03:14
Speaker
I'm going to probably come back to that.
00:03:15
Speaker
But this is one thing that one area that I'm going to write a proper article about eventually when I get around to it.
00:03:21
Speaker
Anyways, so first let's define male solidarity.
00:03:25
Speaker
Male solidarity is a political strategy in which men work together to advance their shared interests.
00:03:31
Speaker
And generally that is male supremacy and the subjugation of women.
00:03:35
Speaker
And in feminist discourse, especially radical feminist discourse, male solidarity is taken as a given, as something that's just, it simply exists.
00:03:44
Speaker
It's always there.
00:03:45
Speaker
There's nothing we can do about it.
00:03:47
Speaker
You know, this is like a really, really big obstacle for women to overcome or that it's something that's not possible for women to overcome.
Strategies to Exploit Male Solidarity
00:03:53
Speaker
But in my personal opinion, as someone who spends a lot of time around men, I've noticed over the years that male solidarity is really not as strong as most people seem to think it is, or at least most women seem to think it is.
00:04:04
Speaker
So I just wanted to share some tips and tricks that I've learned over the years to exploit the cracks in male solidarity, let's just say.
00:04:10
Speaker
So what are some examples of male solidarity?
00:04:13
Speaker
Yeah, some classic examples of male
00:04:16
Speaker
Male solidarity would be locker room talk in which boys learn from a young age to degrade women for status.
00:04:22
Speaker
You know, we've all seen that, you know, men saying degrading things about women and especially boys saying degrading things about girls so that they can seem cool or whatever in the eyes of other boys.
00:04:32
Speaker
Another one is men defending other men accused of sexual misconduct.
00:04:36
Speaker
You know, a good example would be, you know, Harvey Weinstein for a long time, you know, because he was powerful.
00:04:41
Speaker
People around him protected him.
00:04:42
Speaker
It was a sort of open secret in Hollywood that nobody, everyone knew, but nobody really dared talk about because he was just that protected for so many years, right?
00:04:51
Speaker
And even after it came out, it seemed like every loser on Twitter or any social media had an opinion that was somehow...
00:04:59
Speaker
what he did wasn't that bad.
00:05:00
Speaker
That's just part of the industry, blah, blah, blah.
00:05:02
Speaker
These women are whores.
00:05:03
Speaker
They just wanted to be a star.
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:05:06
Speaker
A knee-jerk reaction defending men in these examples.
00:05:09
Speaker
So yeah, it's kind of interesting to watch men's knee-jerk reaction to defend, honestly, the most reprehensible behavior because I think on some level they know, they understand the Overton window, that if they just keep defending the indefensible, that they can drag the discourse towards their side and to be more favorable for them.
00:05:28
Speaker
Well, here's the thing is, even men who are not as powerful as Harvey Weinstein, and I'll talk about this later in the episode, one of the challenges is that lower status men tend to identify with higher status men and idealize them and be sickfantic to them.
00:05:42
Speaker
They aspire to be like them someday, right?
00:05:44
Speaker
And so...
00:05:45
Speaker
They have a vested interest in maintaining this power structure because even if it's a complete and total fantasy and these higher status men see these low status men as like scum on the bottom of their boot, you know, these lower status men want to be like them.
00:05:56
Speaker
So they'll defend that power structure in the hopes that they'll be as powerful and can have those same benefits, you know, even if they'll never be that powerful, right?
00:06:04
Speaker
My favorite thing is like when men act like they have rich men problems, right?
00:06:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:09
Speaker
Oh, she's just trying to baby trap me for my money and he's got $10 in his bank account.
00:06:13
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:06:14
Speaker
It's like, oh, I need to get a prenup when it's like you have no assets to protect apart from that your PS2 is not an asset that anybody would want anyway.
00:06:24
Speaker
It's always the guys with the least to lose with the most paranoia.
00:06:28
Speaker
Do you know what I mean?
00:06:29
Speaker
It's so wild.
00:06:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:31
Speaker
So that mentality, that is another example of male solidarity as well.
00:06:35
Speaker
Like, you know, poor men assuming that they are like rich men or, you know, seeing themselves as rich men.
00:06:40
Speaker
But we'll get to that later in the episode.
00:06:42
Speaker
Another example of male solidarity is basically every religion.
00:06:46
Speaker
You know, like every religion teaches women like that you have to be chaste.
00:06:49
Speaker
You have to get a husband.
00:06:50
Speaker
You have to pop out as many babies as possible.
00:06:52
Speaker
You got to serve your husband.
00:06:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:55
Speaker
And how the most prominent figures and most quoted voices in all the religions are all men.
00:07:01
Speaker
Even in the Bible, there were females who said and did very, very good things, but you don't hear anything about them or they are incorrectly portrayed as being a prostitute.
00:07:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:12
Speaker
As was the case is what happened to Mary Magdalene, who was actually one of Jesus's really, really good friends.
00:07:18
Speaker
And throughout history, she's just been portrayed as a prostitute, which is historically inaccurate.
Institutional Male Solidarity Examples
00:07:23
Speaker
The final example I wrote down here was the way that police officers have a sort of blue wall of silence in which they don't report on other officers' errors or police brutality or anything like that.
00:07:33
Speaker
And often women who try to join the force, they'll find themselves like getting sexually harassed and other men, even if they're not sexual harassers themselves, they'll just not say anything and won't be a witness for her on her behalf, for example.
00:07:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:47
Speaker
I've worked with the police a lot and people like male and female officers, they do actually speak up about bad behavior and try to whistleblow.
00:07:55
Speaker
But the problem is like the fallout for them.
00:07:58
Speaker
Oftentimes the bad behavior, the bullying, the harassment is then directed like towards them.
00:08:04
Speaker
And it's just a really, really toxic culture.
00:08:06
Speaker
And I see I've come across really young officers who genuinely came in to the police force with really good intentions.
00:08:12
Speaker
But you just see how that culture has basically just worn them down because it's just so toxic.
00:08:18
Speaker
It's basically so masculine.
00:08:20
Speaker
And even the female officers that they can actually end up even worse than the men.
00:08:24
Speaker
Like I've, I've trained police officers in rooms where the female officers are more misogynistic than the male officers.
00:08:31
Speaker
And you're just like, what the fuck?
00:08:32
Speaker
That's another crazy thing, actually, about, I wouldn't say it's male, I don't know.
00:08:37
Speaker
I think it's male supremacy.
00:08:38
Speaker
I think it's male supremacy, not really solidarity, really, because.
00:08:41
Speaker
Well, some women will try to increase their own status by participating in a sort of male solidarity, like they try to, like, virtue signal about, like, you know, I care about male suicide rates or whatever.
00:08:52
Speaker
whatever, you know, to try to seem like, you know, I'm not like other girls.
00:08:55
Speaker
I'm not like those bad feminists.
00:08:57
Speaker
I'm one of the good girls.
00:08:58
Speaker
Like, I believe men, right?
00:08:59
Speaker
And then other men will be like, oh my god, you're so amazing and give her lots of positive attention and stuff.
00:09:04
Speaker
And so in that scenario, though, it's like the men were actually like, disagreeing with them.
00:09:09
Speaker
So it was about victim blaming, for example, and the women were victim blaming more and the men were saying that they were wrong.
00:09:15
Speaker
And that was what was really baffling is that
00:09:16
Speaker
It's almost like they were cheerleading for men, but even the men were saying that what they were saying was inappropriate.
00:09:22
Speaker
And I was a bit like, what are you getting out of this?
00:09:24
Speaker
Do you know what I mean?
00:09:24
Speaker
I mean, if the men were agreeing, I'd be like, fair enough.
00:09:27
Speaker
But even the men thought they were chatting shit.
00:09:29
Speaker
I think it's a lot of it has to do with the pre-screening tactics to find those types of women in the first place.
00:09:36
Speaker
I don't know how they do it in the UK, but I know that a lot of police forces have like psychological tests and they're like questionnaires, et cetera.
00:09:42
Speaker
And some of the things, it's almost like they're trying to get you to reveal certain biases before they hire you, right?
00:09:48
Speaker
And like, ideally it's being used to like screen out psychopaths or whatever, but it doesn't really.
00:09:52
Speaker
It actually just a lot of times confirms that the candidate has certain biases that would make them fit in on the police force.
00:09:59
Speaker
And I also feel like the type of women who are sometimes attracted to police work specifically are women who have other police officers and their family and or like are a bit male identified to begin with.
00:10:10
Speaker
So then like they're almost pre-indoctrinated before they join the force.
00:10:15
Speaker
At least that's been my experience about the people that I know who are police officers and then how some of the women got involved and then why sometimes the women are the most vitriolic.
00:10:24
Speaker
And also I feel like it's somewhat like naivety, you know, like some women just feel, what's the word I'm looking for?
00:10:29
Speaker
Like sometimes you see women that they have like a hero worship mentality for men.
00:10:34
Speaker
So then like they denigrate women because they feel like men are more likely to be the heroes in the story versus like if they defend women, then if women are like... Women are more likely to be villains.
00:10:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:47
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:10:48
Speaker
I mean, I am a villain and I just embrace it completely.
00:10:51
Speaker
And I encourage all women to do so.
00:10:53
Speaker
Embrace your villain side.
00:10:54
Speaker
I feel like any type of patriarchal institution that you try to adopt in, they brainwash you to only see the heroic things about men and not all the like totally horrific shit, if that makes sense.
00:11:06
Speaker
Well, the horrific shit, they'll be like, oh, those are just a few bad apples.
00:11:09
Speaker
They refuse to acknowledge that it's like normalized and it's part of the system and everything.
Cracks in Male Solidarity
00:11:13
Speaker
But anyways, so on to the cracks, because we all know that male solidarity is a thing and it is a problem.
00:11:19
Speaker
But let's talk about some of the cracks.
00:11:21
Speaker
The first crack that I noticed was when I was reading Lennon Bancroft's
00:11:26
Speaker
Why does he do that?
00:11:27
Speaker
There's a section there where he's talking about how he's working with abusive men and men who tend to be emotionally abusive, for example, they'll look down on the guys who are physically abusive and be like, oh, I wouldn't like kick the shit on my wife.
00:11:39
Speaker
Like, you know, I'm so much better than you because I only emotionally abuse my wife.
00:11:42
Speaker
I don't like, or I only financially abuse her.
00:11:44
Speaker
I don't like physically hit her, that kind of thing.
00:11:46
Speaker
Right.
00:11:47
Speaker
So that's one thing to pay attention to is that men tend to identify more closely with men who abuse similarly to them.
00:11:55
Speaker
And they'll not identify with men who abuse differently.
00:12:00
Speaker
So the solution is to basically just like pay attention to who are the men in this situation?
00:12:07
Speaker
Who are they defending and why?
00:12:08
Speaker
If they're disagreeing with the men and being like, oh, you know, you did something wrong or something, like ask yourself why kind of thing.
00:12:14
Speaker
Don't necessarily act on it right away, but just like notice these kinds of alliances and discrepancies.
00:12:20
Speaker
And, you know, in the moment, you might not be able to do anything about it.
00:12:24
Speaker
But as time goes on, you can observe some of their weaknesses.
00:12:27
Speaker
You know, you have to wait for the right time to act.
00:12:29
Speaker
Right.
00:12:29
Speaker
Do you guys have anything else to add?
00:12:31
Speaker
So what would be the right time to act?
00:12:33
Speaker
How do we know when to pounce?
00:12:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:35
Speaker
Yeah, when to pounce.
00:12:36
Speaker
So, I would say one thing that I've done is putting men on the defensive.
00:12:41
Speaker
So, if a man starts defending another man for say like sexual assault or sexual harassment, I would immediately say something that puts him on the defensive.
00:12:49
Speaker
You need to make these kinds of alliances costly to men.
00:12:53
Speaker
And if a man is defending another man of say like, you know, done sexual harassment, you need to sort of like taint his reputation, so to speak.
00:13:00
Speaker
Like the fact that he's defending that guy, you need to find a way to make him look bad.
00:13:04
Speaker
And you might not be able to do it again in the situation when he starts defending him.
00:13:09
Speaker
You could say something like, oh, he's been accused of sexual harassment.
00:13:13
Speaker
Why would you defend someone who's done that?
00:13:14
Speaker
Then that puts him on the back foot and he has to defend himself.
00:13:16
Speaker
You might have to wait until a bit later.
00:13:18
Speaker
You've got to read the room, right?
00:13:19
Speaker
And so sometimes that would be a time to maybe start asking around, asking the other women, like, oh, has this guy done this kind of thing?
00:13:27
Speaker
Basically, like...
00:13:28
Speaker
When a man defends another man who stumps something heinous, that should reflect badly on him.
00:13:32
Speaker
And you should use that as an opportunity to taint his reputation, like, preemptively.
00:13:36
Speaker
So that if in the future he does something like that, he already has a reputation of being a creep or something.
00:13:42
Speaker
Basically, use that as an opportunity to poison the well against him, is what I'm saying.
00:13:46
Speaker
Does that make sense?
00:13:48
Speaker
Say something so cutting that it makes them shut the fuck up, right?
00:13:51
Speaker
Unless they're like the type that's really, really belligerent and going to sit around and argue with you because those are those guys too that are really explosive.
00:13:57
Speaker
And this actually happened at a job I had after the whole Aziz Ansari situation where like some guys were trying to defend that as a bad date.
00:14:04
Speaker
And I basically called him a creepy little Muppet
00:14:08
Speaker
I thought that was a British term Muppet.
00:14:10
Speaker
A Muppet?
00:14:11
Speaker
Yeah, you're Muppet.
00:14:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:13
Speaker
That's like a British insult.
00:14:16
Speaker
But yeah, I basically like somewhat made the conversation uncomfortable because I started like saying how completely repulsive and gross a C-Sansari was.
00:14:27
Speaker
And so then I think in some respects, like if you make the man seem sexually repulsive too, then men don't want to be associated with also being sexually repulsive.
00:14:37
Speaker
So that's a way to do it.
00:14:38
Speaker
The times I've tried to make a more complex argument about sexual assault always seems to backfire because then men get really invested in arguing with me.
00:14:47
Speaker
I can hold my own, don't get me wrong, but it ends up just fucking up my mood, if that makes sense.
00:14:52
Speaker
And so it ends up not being worth it because I think I don't change their mind that much.
00:14:57
Speaker
Some of the women get uncomfortable and then it just kind of fucks up my mood for the rest of the day.
00:15:01
Speaker
So my particular strategy when something like that's happened is legitimately...
00:15:06
Speaker
make them seem so sexually undesirable or like whatever's happening, make it seem so sexually undesirable that a man would feel embarrassed to be associated with that kind of inceldom.
00:15:17
Speaker
And or just completely remove yourself from the situation.
00:15:20
Speaker
And like, I mean, literally walk off in a huff, like express your displeasure, but don't necessarily engage in long-term arguments.
00:15:27
Speaker
At least that's been my strategy.
00:15:28
Speaker
I would agree with that.
00:15:29
Speaker
And I would say like, and I totally understand like the freeze response because honestly, yeah, in the moment it is really hard to, you know, not everyone can come up with like something witty and even I, you know, draw a blank sometimes.
00:15:40
Speaker
And even if you come up with something, a witty, like cutting remark, sometimes like you're in a group setting and, you know, if it's mostly men, they're more likely to side with the guy.
00:15:50
Speaker
again, you got to read the room.
00:15:51
Speaker
Like sometimes if you're in a social setting where like, say it's mostly women, you know, and I know these women and I know they're based and I know they're the type of woman, there are certain situations where I'm with women and I know that they're the type of women who would defend me if I was like arguing with a man, then, you know, just be like, yeah, you know, I have the same thing with what Lilith is saying kind of thing, you know, and like, I'll say the audacity thing first and then they all kind of join in.
00:16:14
Speaker
Right.
00:16:15
Speaker
So if you got to like evaluate the situation, like it's
00:16:16
Speaker
Is it safe for me to call him out?
00:16:18
Speaker
First of all, like physically safe.
00:16:19
Speaker
Secondly, is it like politically safe to call him out?
00:16:22
Speaker
You know, so you kind of have to weigh those things.
00:16:24
Speaker
I feel like roasting the guy sexually signals that like this behavior is undesirable and that them defending it makes them undesirable by.
00:16:32
Speaker
And humor is a great strategy.
00:16:35
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:16:35
Speaker
Makes them undesirable by association.
00:16:37
Speaker
So if they start saying like, oh, Harvey Weinstein didn't do anything for those, you know, like those girls wanted to be with Harvey Weinstein.
00:16:44
Speaker
And I'm like, yeah, I guess the guy shaped like a sack of potatoes with a rotting dick.
00:16:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:47
Speaker
Who wouldn't want to have to fuck some guy like that to get a job?
00:16:51
Speaker
Right.
00:16:51
Speaker
Or something like that, that makes it seem like it's actually ridiculous and repulsive for you to be defending someone so sexually repulsive to women.
00:16:58
Speaker
Right.
00:16:58
Speaker
And that's actually like using humor, like cutting humor like that is a great strategy because, you know, if you were to just like be totally aggro without any humor, like it could make other people uncomfortable kind of thing.
00:17:08
Speaker
Right.
00:17:08
Speaker
But if you say something mean, but in a funny way and the people around you laugh and it kind of puts everyone at ease, it makes it like the tension, like it makes it easier to win people over and get buy in like for you kind of thing.
00:17:20
Speaker
Right.
00:17:21
Speaker
That's why I think learning how to physically roast men is actually a skill you need to be a feminist.
00:17:25
Speaker
Yeah, like knowing how to mock men is a very valuable skill.
00:17:29
Speaker
It's highly effective in shutting down conversations.
00:17:32
Speaker
And men do it with each other all the time.
00:17:34
Speaker
That's another crack I'm going to get to later.
00:17:35
Speaker
But like men are so fucking mean to each other and they bully each other all the time.
00:17:39
Speaker
You know, you can participate in that.
00:17:41
Speaker
You got to be careful.
00:17:42
Speaker
It's risky, but it can be done if you know the dynamic.
00:17:45
Speaker
Right.
00:17:45
Speaker
But
Exploiting Status Differences
00:17:46
Speaker
we'll get there.
00:17:46
Speaker
So my next crack that I've noticed is the dynamic between high productivity or high status males and lower status males.
00:17:54
Speaker
Now this is a complicated one because highly productive men or like higher status men, they tend to like look down on like, I'll tell you an example actually.
00:18:04
Speaker
So
00:18:04
Speaker
I was talking with my boss.
00:18:05
Speaker
My immediate supervisor is like a total girl dad.
00:18:09
Speaker
He's like, he's a good dude, actually.
00:18:11
Speaker
Like he's got two daughters.
00:18:12
Speaker
You know, he is like against misogyny.
00:18:15
Speaker
He doesn't always like get it.
00:18:16
Speaker
Like he doesn't always like know what's going on, but he's like supportive of me.
00:18:20
Speaker
Right.
00:18:21
Speaker
Which I do appreciate.
00:18:22
Speaker
And so, you know, he talks all the time about like, oh, the fucking morons that we work with and all of the fucking morons are men, right?
00:18:28
Speaker
And he has this sort of thing where, you know, in his career, he's been very like hardworking, you know, highly productive.
00:18:35
Speaker
And he just like, the men that are not on his level, he just sort of looks down on them and feels okay with exploiting them, you know, financially.
00:18:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:43
Speaker
in like a workplace environment, you know?
00:18:46
Speaker
Like there've been times where like, oh, I'll complain about a guy I'm working with and he'll be like, yeah, but have you ever thought that maybe he's just too fucking stupid or that you're like, he's just not as smart as you?
00:18:56
Speaker
Like, did you think about that?
00:18:57
Speaker
You know, like maybe he's just not smart enough to have a better job than this and that's why he's still here, guys.
00:19:03
Speaker
You know, I have noticed high value men are very disdainful of low productivity, like low status men.
00:19:11
Speaker
That is very true.
00:19:12
Speaker
So sometimes if you find a guy who's like a hardworking guy, especially if he's like definitely like a pull himself up by a bootstraps guy, they're often the most disdainful of scrotie men because they realize like they could be better, but choose not to.
00:19:25
Speaker
And or they are so fucking stupid that it's beneath their dignity to entertain any of their ideas.
00:19:30
Speaker
Well, they all know the feeling of like being on a team where they're putting in a lot of work and getting the good results.
00:19:35
Speaker
And then the other guys on the team are just coasting.
00:19:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:38
Speaker
Right.
00:19:38
Speaker
Like guys, you know, it's complicated and like male friendship or male group dynamics are complicated.
00:19:44
Speaker
Even I don't fully understand them yet, but like, you know, we all know the pain of like being on a team and you're the highest performer and you're doing a good job and you're just surrounded by mediocrity and, you know,
00:19:53
Speaker
You're like, damn, like, you know, before he became a manager and he was just like salesperson and stuff.
00:19:58
Speaker
Like they're dumb out here, son.
00:20:01
Speaker
Yeah, he just has this feeling of like, I'm so much better than all these other guys.
00:20:04
Speaker
These other guys are fucking stupid.
00:20:05
Speaker
And that's why I'm their boss.
00:20:06
Speaker
And they're my employee now kind of thing.
00:20:09
Speaker
You know, so if you can find a way to, like, you know, get on the good side of men like that, and like, kind of feed them ideas, sort of like, learn to manage up in a way, get a receptive ear for men like that.
00:20:21
Speaker
That's really, really advantageous.
00:20:22
Speaker
And that's one way that you can like, you know, access some, you know, benefits of that power structure, so to speak.
00:20:28
Speaker
I have to say all of the extremely high value men I know are men who came from really terrible backgrounds and legitimately like were self-made and their disdain for the people that they grew up around in some respects is like they understand from a larger social dynamic that sometimes like people are influenced certain ways.
00:20:47
Speaker
But on the other hand, they don't make a lot of excuses for men who don't also take the available opportunities and pass available to them.
00:20:56
Speaker
Yeah, like I did.
00:20:56
Speaker
Why can't you kind of thing?
00:20:58
Speaker
They tend to believe in meritocracies a lot more, meaning like they don't have bleeding hearts.
00:21:02
Speaker
It doesn't mean like they're necessarily politically conservative, but they're not like the type of guys that are necessarily overly empathetic, which can be a double-edged sword.
00:21:09
Speaker
But at the same time, like they're definitely your best allies when it comes to like shitting on like terrible men in society because they don't have any sympathy for them either.
00:21:18
Speaker
And therefore, like if you complain about them, they're like, yeah, they don't feel solidarity with losers and creeps.
00:21:23
Speaker
Exactly.
00:21:23
Speaker
They don't feel solidarity with losers and creeps.
00:21:25
Speaker
They might not like out the gates, like fire the guy or something like that.
00:21:29
Speaker
Right.
00:21:29
Speaker
So don't expect like to walk into your boss's office, be like, this guy was sexually harassing me.
00:21:33
Speaker
Like he's not gonna, you know, immediately fire him without like maybe, you know, asking some questions or whatever.
00:21:38
Speaker
Right.
00:21:39
Speaker
But if you can like be like, oh, you know, I'm going through this thing.
00:21:41
Speaker
And like you show that you're the sort of person to rise above, they'll respect you more.
00:21:46
Speaker
And then they'll see that guy, they'll trust him a little bit less than
00:21:49
Speaker
Again, it's about poisoning the well and damaging the shitty guy's reputation, right?
00:21:53
Speaker
You know, the benefits of that are innumerable, right?
00:21:57
Speaker
He can get passed up for promotions.
00:21:58
Speaker
You know, he might just get like fewer opportunities.
00:22:01
Speaker
He might end up like just getting fired.
00:22:03
Speaker
Because no business owner who's not a moron wants a creepy man in charge of a team such that it makes it so uncomfortable that the women can't be productive.
00:22:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:13
Speaker
Right.
00:22:13
Speaker
Like that's just bad management 101.
00:22:16
Speaker
Anybody who's like somewhat worth their salt should have some kind of understanding that hiring creeps on your workforce and making women uncomfortable in the workforce only hurts your bottom line.
00:22:27
Speaker
So like you basically have to be a raging misogynist and not care about making profit to allow that to go on.
00:22:33
Speaker
Any man who's in management who's worth his salt is going to have some kind of clue about that and try to nip that in the bud.
00:22:39
Speaker
The other thing I noticed, if a guy who's sexually harassing me, but he's like the best salesperson on the team, the chances of him getting fired or getting punished at all are much lower, right?
00:22:48
Speaker
But if a guy, let's say like he has a reputation for being a guy who sexually harasses women, but he's a lower performer, it makes it much, much easier to fire him if he's got both things working against him in terms of his reputation and his performance.
00:23:03
Speaker
If it's just one, but not the other, it's a lot harder to actually do anything.
00:23:06
Speaker
But if you can set that stage that like, oh, he's a creep,
00:23:10
Speaker
you know, he harasses the other women, he makes other women uncomfortable, and he has that kind of reputation.
00:23:14
Speaker
If he has a low month, one month, boom, gone.
00:23:16
Speaker
Like, oh, he's the bottom 20% of our team.
00:23:18
Speaker
Okay, it's much easier to get rid of him at that point.
00:23:21
Speaker
That's what I mean about you got to do like the work before doing the work.
00:23:24
Speaker
And a lot of women, maybe you're listening to this and you're like,
00:23:26
Speaker
That sounds fucking exhausting.
00:23:28
Speaker
I don't want to do any of that shit.
00:23:29
Speaker
That's a lot of emotional labor.
00:23:30
Speaker
Honestly, fair.
00:23:31
Speaker
I hear you.
00:23:32
Speaker
And if this sounds like too much work for you, then don't work in a male dominated industry.
00:23:37
Speaker
I'm just saying like, these are the survival strategies that I've learned over the years.
00:23:40
Speaker
And if you want to learn them, you know, I'm happy to help kind of thing.
00:23:43
Speaker
Right.
00:23:44
Speaker
Anyways, what's the next one?
00:23:45
Speaker
Okay, so lower status men can resent higher status men, but they're generally too weak and sycophantic and they take out their anger on women instead.
00:23:54
Speaker
And that's the problem.
00:23:55
Speaker
Like, I find like appealing to like lower status men who lose out from patriarchy is a losing strategy.
00:24:01
Speaker
Like the whole like patriarchy hurts men too, blah, blah, blah.
00:24:04
Speaker
It's like, I don't give a fuck.
00:24:05
Speaker
Let it hurt them.
00:24:06
Speaker
I don't care.
00:24:06
Speaker
Yeah, they like it that way.
00:24:08
Speaker
That's the thing.
00:24:09
Speaker
Like, you know, a lot of people might get mad at me for saying like, no, you got to get in with like the higher status men.
00:24:14
Speaker
You got to like manipulate that power structure to your advantage kind of thing.
00:24:18
Speaker
Like, for example, a lot of lower status men who are misogynistic often become communists.
00:24:23
Speaker
I will dunk on communist men until the day I die because like a lot of communist men, they're just the same shitty guy as the rich men, but they're too lazy and stupid to like earn money.
00:24:34
Speaker
Basically, like...
00:24:35
Speaker
The thing I've noticed about, like, left-wing men is that they're just not smart enough to succeed under capitalism a lot of the time, but that doesn't make them, like, a friend to the poor or a friend to women.
00:24:46
Speaker
Like, as soon as they get a bit of money, they'll become conservative kind of thing, right?
00:24:50
Speaker
They're just mad losers.
00:24:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:53
Speaker
They're just bad losers, right?
00:24:54
Speaker
And so that's why I think, like, for women, I would strongly advise against organizing politically with communist men.
00:25:02
Speaker
I just think that a lot of communist men have this, like, whole fantasy, like, oh, once we overthrow, like, capitalism, and it's going to be a free fuckfest, like, I don't know, spend money on a woman to stick my dick in her kind of thing, right?
00:25:12
Speaker
Men's politics are a function of like their sexual interests, right?
00:25:16
Speaker
So like higher status men and men who have money, they become conservatives because they can actually afford to like have women as private property.
00:25:23
Speaker
Whereas men who are like poor and low status, they want like the...
00:25:28
Speaker
They want women to be like, you know, communal property, right?
00:25:31
Speaker
And more easy to access.
00:25:32
Speaker
But also there's poor conservative men that want, they'll attack feminists or whatever, because they're losers in the economy too.
00:25:38
Speaker
And saying that like feminists have taken over the man's role.
00:25:40
Speaker
And what they mean by that is like, I can't get a job because I'm too stupid and lazy.
00:25:44
Speaker
And like women are taking it from me.
00:25:46
Speaker
I feel like your statement before is correct.
00:25:48
Speaker
Like whenever every man's politics is a reflection of his relationship with women on some level and how he views women as a resource.
00:25:56
Speaker
So yeah, the very like communist guys feel like people, things should be handed to them and that they're not able to compete effectively in the market and that women are some kind of distributable resource.
00:26:05
Speaker
And then like the very conservative guys are just as big as losers, but they feel like it's because of like the feminists and that the feminists are denying them their rightful place as the headship of their home as a man.
00:26:16
Speaker
Exactly.
00:26:16
Speaker
Right.
00:26:17
Speaker
My point being like, if you're looking to exploit cracks in male solidarity, especially the crack of like high status men versus low status men, I think attempting to mobilize low status men is generally a losing strategy.
00:26:28
Speaker
There's some women who do it well, like if they're like, I don't know, like shoe on head, for example, like
00:26:33
Speaker
There's some women online who make money from basically like financially exploiting incels.
00:26:38
Speaker
Like women of OnlyFans, for example, same thing, right?
00:26:41
Speaker
There's a small number of women who can do it somewhat successfully for her on like an individual level.
00:26:46
Speaker
But like for me personally, like, you know, when I was younger and more left wing, I mean, I'm still like a democratic socialist, but
00:26:52
Speaker
When I was younger and more, you know, going through my communist phase or whatever, like trying to like find solidarity with working class men and all that stuff.
00:26:59
Speaker
Like those men, like the second they get a chance, they will for sure fucking try to rape you.
00:27:03
Speaker
I'm not kidding.
00:27:04
Speaker
And not to say that the high status men won't, but like, you know, don't think that just because they're disenfranchised by patriarchy, franchised by capitalism, that they're on your side because they're not.
00:27:13
Speaker
They're ultimately self-interested.
00:27:14
Speaker
And I think that's the thing women have to be aware of whenever they're fighting for any type of political interest.
00:27:19
Speaker
You'll end up with egg on your face, very similar to a lot of the women that joined a lot of these like reclaimed masculinity groups.
00:27:26
Speaker
And then turns out they're like massively misogynist.
00:27:28
Speaker
You remember when there was like all of these leopards ate my face memes about women who joined right ring groups or like were supporting like the proud boys or whatever and then found out they were crazy misogynist once they achieved like certain ends and that essentially that they were fighting for their own personal rights at the expense of women.
00:27:44
Speaker
To be honest, I feel like that's pretty much true across the board in various levels of degrees that men are ultimately self-interested.
00:27:51
Speaker
So even if they're like left wing and they say, you know, this is all about like the common man, like finally having more influence on society and like unionization, etc.,
00:28:03
Speaker
don't think that they won't be also trying to figure out ways to prioritize themselves within that type of hierarchy.
00:28:08
Speaker
So I think you just always have to be aware of that.
00:28:10
Speaker
Like, look at it, look at the angle and then try to figure out to what extent is there an intersectional mutual benefit to being aligned with these kinds of men?
00:28:19
Speaker
And like, where are they going to try to take the advantage?
00:28:22
Speaker
Because they always, always, always will try to find a place to personally take the advantage or the advantage for men in general.
Toxicity in Male-Dominated Spaces
00:28:29
Speaker
Exactly.
00:28:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:30
Speaker
And so my next sort of crack that I've noticed is that men who spend a lot of time in macho male dominated environments, like sales is one, I guess there's like construction and probably other male dominated environments where the men sort of like abuse each other for status.
00:28:47
Speaker
And so that becomes sort of normal to them.
00:28:49
Speaker
And they're still starved for female attention, right?
00:28:52
Speaker
They don't know how to talk to women in a way that won't alienate the women.
00:28:55
Speaker
And that makes them even more lonely.
00:28:58
Speaker
And so, you know, again, like the whole patriarchy hurts men too, blah, blah, blah.
00:29:01
Speaker
It's like, again, let it hurt them.
00:29:04
Speaker
Like, I don't know why there's so many liberal feminists who are like, oh my God, patriarchy hurts men too.
00:29:09
Speaker
We need to save men from the consequences of their own actions kind of thing.
00:29:12
Speaker
No, it's not that.
00:29:13
Speaker
Like, you know, male solidarity, like when men are together,
00:29:16
Speaker
Do you have examples of these, Ro, where they come up with nicknames for guys based on some flaw?
00:29:22
Speaker
He has a, I don't know, limp and they call him, oh, he's the cripple or something, right?
00:29:26
Speaker
They're so mean to each other, right?
00:29:28
Speaker
So, okay.
00:29:29
Speaker
So, men tend to build group solidarity by...
00:29:34
Speaker
going to call it like disarming their opponent.
00:29:36
Speaker
Sort of pecking order?
00:29:38
Speaker
I don't necessarily know that it's like always strictly hierarchical, but men tend to be able to be more directly aggressive with men when they have a disagreement.
00:29:47
Speaker
Like infamously, like women are a little bit more passive aggressive in our friendships when we have like issues with each other or when we're trying to kind of figure out if there is going to be a pecking order, like how it works or like in what circumstances.
00:29:58
Speaker
Men are a little bit more directly aggressive.
00:30:00
Speaker
And I've seen this, especially like if they're in the moment and one of them's feeling a little embarrassed, sometimes the other one will just straight up like undercut the other one.
00:30:08
Speaker
But it's not unusual to see men like spar with each other publicly.
00:30:13
Speaker
Usually the things that they will say about a guy is something they know that man is insecure about.
00:30:17
Speaker
Unless they're just like all dogpiling on a guy because they're bullying him.
00:30:20
Speaker
But in some respects, I wonder if it's just like a way for them to toughen each other up.
00:30:25
Speaker
I don't think that that's what happens most of the time.
00:30:27
Speaker
A lot of these guys, like a lot of my male co-workers, just straight up have like, they're alcoholics.
00:30:32
Speaker
They're just...
00:30:34
Speaker
Like the macho environment definitely takes a toll on them.
00:30:38
Speaker
And I can definitely see it.
00:30:39
Speaker
You know, they go home, drink themselves to sleep every night, yell at their wife, you know, just generally are not living their best life.
00:30:45
Speaker
And they don't think to like take themselves out of the environment that's causing them stress.
00:30:50
Speaker
They just sort of like come up with unhealthy coping mechanisms, but that ends up being their own downfall.
00:30:55
Speaker
So my point here is like,
00:30:56
Speaker
You know, male-dominated macho environments often are toxic to the men who participate in it.
00:31:02
Speaker
Even the guys that are on top, right?
00:31:05
Speaker
It's just, like, stressful to constantly feel, like, you know, on your guard.
00:31:08
Speaker
Like, even the guy who's, you know, at the top of the hierarchy knows he could, like, lose that at any time.
00:31:12
Speaker
You know, he's having to constantly, like, defend his position in the male hierarchy.
00:31:15
Speaker
hierarchy or whatever, they may not admit it, but it does stress them out.
00:31:19
Speaker
And I definitely see it.
00:31:20
Speaker
And they just, you know, and they end up divorced, miserable, you know, by the time they're middle-aged and again, just let them suffer.
00:31:27
Speaker
I think, yeah, as they get older, I feel like sometimes that stuff gets more vicious because it gets more personal.
00:31:33
Speaker
And then also, however that man personally feels about his achievements in life, it can start to trigger them a lot more.
00:31:38
Speaker
For some reason, I was thinking of like much younger men, but like if they're over, honestly, like they're out of college at all.
00:31:44
Speaker
And they're doing this kind of macho behavior, it becomes a little bit more personal because then like a man, this is where you start to see men start to withdraw if they have not achieved a position in the group that is somewhat respectable, right?
00:31:58
Speaker
Or if they don't feel like they're achieving respect of their fellow men, it can start to be less funny and like more personal.
00:32:04
Speaker
Or a lot of them just end up becoming extremely unhappy by the time they're middle-aged.
00:32:08
Speaker
Like, they're just jaded.
00:32:09
Speaker
They're just bitter, angry all the time.
00:32:11
Speaker
And they just think, oh, that's just being a man or whatever, right?
00:32:14
Speaker
But they're suffering, you know?
00:32:15
Speaker
And it's like, again, just let them suffer.
00:32:18
Speaker
Like, my point being is, ladies, like, you don't have to do anything at this point.
00:32:23
Speaker
Like there are some situations where you actually don't have to do anything or take action at all because their own macho-ness will be their own downfall, right?
00:32:29
Speaker
We often talk about male solidarity as something that strengthens men, but over time, I find for the most part, actually it causes them on the individual level, a lot more harm than good.
00:32:40
Speaker
You know, the men who are the happiest tend to be like married and have a wife and kids and stuff.
00:32:45
Speaker
You know, you have to have like good communication skills to keep a woman happy so that she wants to continue to be your wife or to even get a ring on her finger.
00:32:53
Speaker
You know, there's some men who like abuse their wives and so on, right?
00:32:56
Speaker
You know, a lot of the times those women leave.
00:32:58
Speaker
I hope they leave.
00:32:59
Speaker
You know, that's what we need to really focus on is supporting women leaving abusive husbands and so on, right?
00:33:04
Speaker
But for the most part, men who are like happily married, but the ones who, you know, benefit the most...
00:33:09
Speaker
Again, these men who focus on achieving status within the male hierarchy become emotionally stunted a lot of the time.
00:33:15
Speaker
And they just live their whole lives, you know, trying to make money, trying to do this and this, trying to be the man that other men look up to, not really thinking about the fact that even if they achieve that, they become the sort of man that other, you know...
00:33:28
Speaker
most women, you know, non gold diggers anyways, right?
00:33:31
Speaker
Don't find attractive.
00:33:32
Speaker
You know, most women don't find that attractive.
00:33:34
Speaker
And then they're losing in the end because they can't make a woman happy.
00:33:37
Speaker
They can't get a wife who would make him happy kind of thing, right?
00:33:39
Speaker
It's hard to tell on this, like, what's the issue or like, what's the catalyst for the rest of that?
00:33:44
Speaker
Because are they just undesirable for women?
00:33:47
Speaker
So like, if they're undesirable to women in general, then they will have no influence in the male hierarchy.
00:33:53
Speaker
Like no man respects a man who can't get pussy.
00:33:56
Speaker
That is like a consistent way that men evaluate each other and their position in the hierarchy.
00:34:02
Speaker
Oh, he can't get bitches.
00:34:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:04
Speaker
If you can't get women, then and if you creep out women, they don't want to hang out with you.
00:34:08
Speaker
they'll roast you.
00:34:09
Speaker
You're basically kind of a social outcast because no guy wants to take his friend out.
00:34:12
Speaker
And his friend is so creepy to women that he can't be a good wingman.
00:34:16
Speaker
Yeah, right.
00:34:16
Speaker
They can't even be a woman.
00:34:17
Speaker
Like that can be extended to like, they can't get a wife because they're so basically losers.
00:34:22
Speaker
Right.
00:34:22
Speaker
So like,
00:34:23
Speaker
I feel like a lot of men will have like a charity case friend like that, who they like sometimes try to help out, but like who they ultimately don't respect and then eventually will jettison if they become too much of a liability, right?
00:34:35
Speaker
Especially to their own family.
00:34:36
Speaker
If they're getting women and like the women are like, if you bring your creepy ass friend here, I'm not hanging out.
00:34:41
Speaker
Like if they have a girlfriend or a wife and they don't want that man around, then...
00:34:44
Speaker
A lot of times these men start to get pushed out.
00:34:46
Speaker
I want to point out that all of the men at my company who are like CEOs, you know, high level managers, directors, and so on, pretty much every single one of them are married with kids, like almost universally.
00:34:58
Speaker
They're not always necessarily good husbands.
00:35:00
Speaker
They're not always necessarily good fathers, but they have a wife and kids, right?
00:35:04
Speaker
They had to do something to like get a woman to be attracted to him, marry him,
00:35:08
Speaker
and stay with him for 20 years, right?
00:35:11
Speaker
He has to have that sort of like mental capacity to make a woman happy, at least somewhat, at least in the beginning, right?
00:35:16
Speaker
The men who are the most miserable, the most made fun of, and passed up for promotions tend to be the men who...
00:35:24
Speaker
who, you know, are middle-aged and have never been married or they're divorced.
00:35:27
Speaker
You know, marriage increases a man's status.
00:35:30
Speaker
Inability to get any women decreases a man's status.
00:35:33
Speaker
And so, leveraging that, like, the fact that men's status in the male hierarchy is based on, like, their proximity to women.
00:35:39
Speaker
As women, we need to leverage that.
00:35:41
Speaker
So, like, don't give these shitty men access to you at all.
00:35:44
Speaker
Like, that's actually the number one thing.
00:35:46
Speaker
It's like, if you want to really, like, damage a guy or hurt a guy, like, just...
00:35:50
Speaker
ignore him completely, especially if he's like hitting on you or whatever, just kind of like turn away.
00:35:55
Speaker
And then like other men will see that and like make fun of him.
00:35:57
Speaker
Like, aha, like, you know, you can't get any bitches kind of thing.
00:35:59
Speaker
Right.
00:35:59
Speaker
Does that make sense?
00:36:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:01
Speaker
That like that can't get any bitches energy.
00:36:03
Speaker
You can tell both personally and professionally because yes, guys who are also like that, unless they have like a buddy or they're just like kind of workhorses that are underpaid, they tend not to be put into management positions because they don't have people skills.
00:36:15
Speaker
Cause like being able to get women is a people skill.
00:36:17
Speaker
Right.
00:36:17
Speaker
right?
00:36:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:18
Speaker
So you have to have that kind of people skill.
00:36:20
Speaker
You know, marriage, I think helps men because you end up with long-term people skills or long-term interpersonal skills.
00:36:26
Speaker
Someone to interact with.
00:36:28
Speaker
Exactly.
00:36:29
Speaker
So like if you have a wife, more than likely your interpersonal skills are going to be constantly tested and challenged.
00:36:35
Speaker
And if she's doing her job anyways, like tested and challenged.
00:36:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:41
Speaker
If she's doing her job, she should challenge you.
00:36:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:43
Speaker
If she's doing her job,
00:36:45
Speaker
The man's interpersonal skills should be constantly tested, challenged, and like... Improved, hopefully.
00:36:50
Speaker
Yeah, improved because of the fact that you're teaching him how to interact with people in a positive way and also how to influence people, right?
00:36:58
Speaker
So I feel like at the very least, if you can't get one woman to buy into you, like how can you get a whole company to buy into you?
00:37:05
Speaker
Right.
00:37:05
Speaker
So like, that's the mentality of why like marriage just in general helps men and the perception of men.
00:37:11
Speaker
Like, first of all, women are already more likely to trust men who have other women that vouch for them.
00:37:17
Speaker
Right.
00:37:17
Speaker
Instead of like a lone male, but also men are because like, quite frankly, it shows that you can at least on the very small level, like lead a little family, right?
00:37:25
Speaker
Like lead people to want to listen to you.
00:37:27
Speaker
So then it makes it look like, okay, if you can't influence one woman to believe in you, like how can you get an entire department to believe in you?
00:37:33
Speaker
right?
00:37:33
Speaker
That's really what it comes down to is like the ability to influence people in such a way that they want to follow you and trust you and the decisions that you make.
00:37:41
Speaker
If you can't get a wife to do that, then there's no way you can get a whole company to do that, right?
00:37:45
Speaker
And so like, I think marriage is one step in men creating relationships
00:37:49
Speaker
a sphere of influence in order to get other people to understand and want to buy into them.
00:37:56
Speaker
Now, not totally... Sometimes you have these maverick entrepreneurs who get by on prestige, etc.
00:38:01
Speaker
But even then, interpersonal skills are so important.
00:38:05
Speaker
If you can't pitch to investors, if you can't talk to other people on your team and get them to buy into your vision, etc.
00:38:11
Speaker
It gets really, really difficult.
00:38:12
Speaker
But then again, most of the guys, even if they don't start out married, they usually eventually get married.
00:38:15
Speaker
Because it's like those kinds of things become really, really important as far as like optics.
00:38:20
Speaker
There's one exception I wanted to say.
00:38:23
Speaker
There's this one guy at my work.
00:38:24
Speaker
He's always been a salesperson.
00:38:25
Speaker
He's never had a management role to my knowledge.
00:38:28
Speaker
He's never been married, never had kids.
00:38:30
Speaker
He's one of these guys.
00:38:31
Speaker
He's like very grouchy with the other guys, but everyone kind of likes him anyways.
00:38:34
Speaker
I don't know.
00:38:34
Speaker
I'm going to call him Joe.
00:38:35
Speaker
That's not his real name, but let's call him Joe.
00:38:37
Speaker
But all of the women in the office actually love him.
00:38:39
Speaker
At first, I thought, like, that I wouldn't like him because he seems really grouchy.
00:38:43
Speaker
But the more I, like, interact with him, the more I realize that he's one of these guys where, like, he's so grouchy with the other men just to, like, as a survival mechanism, as a coping mechanism or whatever.
00:38:53
Speaker
But he treats the women like royalty.
00:38:55
Speaker
Oh, is he like a male pick-me?
00:38:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:57
Speaker
no not like a male pick me but like the kind of guy where like if you need help with something like he might be a little bit like gruff kind of thing but like he'll actually take the time out of the day to like help you right he's a little bit like rough around the edges kind of guy but like his actions show that he has good intentions you know when i first got there i was like why does he have this like harem of women and all the women here like love him when he's so grouchy and like the more i work with him the more i realize like oh okay okay he
00:39:22
Speaker
He has like a mask that he has with men.
00:39:24
Speaker
And then he can sort of like, I don't know, he shows his like more vulnerable side or more like, I feel like if he were to be like nice and helpful to other men, they'd call him a simp or like they'd like shit on him, right?
00:39:33
Speaker
He only reserves the good treatment for women because only the women like appreciate that and don't abuse him for it.
00:39:39
Speaker
Interesting.
00:39:39
Speaker
So like, is he able to still exert power?
00:39:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:43
Speaker
He's one of these guys where like, he's been there like 20, 30 years and he's close to retirement.
00:39:47
Speaker
Again, he doesn't have like an official title, but he has like a sort of quiet power that like, if people need help, like he's the subject matter expert on like a lot of things.
00:39:55
Speaker
Right.
00:39:55
Speaker
So you want to be on his good side.
00:39:57
Speaker
That's another tip actually is like, take your time when you're entering a new workplace or new social situation, like sort of keep your mouth shut as long as you can.
00:40:05
Speaker
Don't alienate people, just sort of observe and like learn the dynamics and stuff.
00:40:09
Speaker
you know, ask questions, talk to other people, like, other opinion about things, and then they'll usually blab, right?
00:40:15
Speaker
But, like, this guy Joe, yeah, he does have a sort of, like, quiet power, but he has a sort of soft power.
00:40:20
Speaker
I don't know how to say it.
00:40:22
Speaker
It's not, like, a hard power.
00:40:23
Speaker
It's not, like, a violence or even, like, a title.
00:40:26
Speaker
But he is someone that, you know, people tend to trust.
00:40:28
Speaker
But he's not as nice with the men.
00:40:29
Speaker
Like, he's... The way that he treats men, like, I don't know, but they're all kind of scared of him.
00:40:33
Speaker
So he's a very confusing person altogether.
00:40:35
Speaker
I'm still in the process of getting to know him, actually.
00:40:39
Speaker
dissect this like anomaly in the matrix like he's just he's a bit weird right that's the thing I'm like he's never been married never had kids like but why do all the women like him like so he's the one exception to my role that I'm kind of like
00:40:53
Speaker
I'm trying to figure him out.
00:40:54
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:40:55
Speaker
Like, why does everyone respect him even though he's like kind of an asshole, but only to the men, right?
00:41:00
Speaker
Again, that's like maybe a word of advice is like only be nice to women, but be on your guard around men.
00:41:05
Speaker
That's the advice I'd give to everybody actually is like...
00:41:09
Speaker
Just in general, like both personally and politically is advantageous.
00:41:12
Speaker
You know, put men on the defensive.
00:41:14
Speaker
Don't be quick to trust them.
00:41:15
Speaker
Doubt what they say.
00:41:17
Speaker
If they say something, be like, are you sure about that?
00:41:19
Speaker
You know, try to taint their word basically.
00:41:22
Speaker
But with women, I find it pays off a lot more to
Social Dynamics and Influence
00:41:25
Speaker
get on their good side and stay on their good side.
00:41:26
Speaker
But that's just me.
00:41:27
Speaker
The other thing is when you're observing interpersonal dynamics, don't assume that just because a man is friendly to another man, that that means they're friends.
00:41:34
Speaker
Like men can also be two-faced.
00:41:36
Speaker
I know it's a stereotype, like women are like two-faced, they'll be nice to your face and like me behind your back.
00:41:40
Speaker
But men do this too.
00:41:41
Speaker
I've noticed this a lot where like guys will be friendly, you know, shake hands, bro it out.
00:41:45
Speaker
But then when you're talking to them in private, it's like they've been holding it in and they're just like dying to tell someone like that this other guy's a piece of shit.
00:41:52
Speaker
So if you just keep your mouth shut and ask questions, you know, the control of information is another very important form of power.
00:41:58
Speaker
I want to do another episode on controlling information.
00:42:00
Speaker
Like if you learn some, for example, an embarrassing piece of information about someone, you know, you might not want to share it right away.
00:42:06
Speaker
You have to wait for the right time.
00:42:08
Speaker
You know, the ability to like...
00:42:10
Speaker
get information, withhold information in certain situations, release certain information in other situations when it's beneficial to you.
00:42:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:18
Speaker
So like when you're talking to men in private, pay close attention to the snide comments and make a mental note for later.
00:42:23
Speaker
Don't participate in it.
00:42:24
Speaker
That's another thing.
00:42:25
Speaker
Do not make the mistake.
00:42:26
Speaker
If a guy's talking shit about another guy, do not make the mistake of like participating.
00:42:30
Speaker
Just be like, make a sort of like,
00:42:31
Speaker
oh, that sounds hard.
00:42:32
Speaker
Like, oh, you know, that's terrible.
00:42:33
Speaker
Or like, oh, tell me more.
00:42:34
Speaker
Like, you know, say something kind of sympathetic, maybe like you're listening to him, get him to lower his guard and trust you more, but don't like, oh yeah, I had this problem with him too.
00:42:44
Speaker
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:42:44
Speaker
Like don't share your personal experience with that guy because that guy, he's being two-faced to the other guy.
00:42:49
Speaker
He could be two-faced to you.
00:42:50
Speaker
He could go and say that to the other guy.
00:42:52
Speaker
Right.
00:42:53
Speaker
So don't trust men is what I'm saying, but listen to what they say.
00:42:55
Speaker
Make a mental note for later.
00:42:57
Speaker
Oh, and the other thing is only give men positive attention when they do your bidding.
00:43:01
Speaker
Like, ignore them the rest of the time because anger is still attention to them.
00:43:06
Speaker
But, like, if you only positively reward them when they do what you want, it makes them more, like, eager to please.
00:43:12
Speaker
But again, like, if you get a reputation for, like,
00:43:14
Speaker
for being like easily triggered or like oh you know getting pissed off easily or whatever they'll just try to like get under your skin and try to provoke you even more so like learn to control your emotions learn to control your knee-jerk emotional reactions and it can be hard and it takes a lot of time and practice but like just because a guy says a shitty sexist comment in the moment like it doesn't make you a bad feminist if you don't immediately call him out for it is what i'm saying
00:43:36
Speaker
So some of it is like if you remain calm in the face of their needling, then they end up looking a dick, first of all.
00:43:43
Speaker
And then secondly, if they can't get a reaction out of you, then a lot of times they'll get bored and move on.
00:43:49
Speaker
Men feed on attention currency, I think is what you're trying to say.
00:43:52
Speaker
Like
00:43:52
Speaker
If there's nothing else that women learn from this podcast, attention is currency for men, positive or negative.
00:43:59
Speaker
Female attention, the ability to get attention from women, positive or negative, is currency for a lot of men.
00:44:06
Speaker
So when you're dealing with men, anything...
00:44:10
Speaker
Any type of like emotional reaction they're having towards you, if they're gossiping because they're upset about something, if they're just being a dick, trying to needle people, trying to needle you, the best thing you do is like reserve and conserve your attention for when it benefits you, like to give it to them, right?
00:44:26
Speaker
Like you have to basically make them work for it.
00:44:28
Speaker
You have to make them value your attention by only bestowing it on them when it's important for you, like when it's going to be advantageous to you.
00:44:36
Speaker
And I feel like the more you practice that, it can only benefit you in general, like in work, in life and in relationships that your attention is only given when it's either mutually beneficial for you to engage with them or they're doing something that you like.
00:44:51
Speaker
right?
00:44:52
Speaker
So I think, yeah, being able to control your emotions is a big part of that.
00:44:55
Speaker
It's very difficult, especially if someone's being an asshole.
00:44:58
Speaker
I think it takes a certain level of maturity over time to like build.
00:45:02
Speaker
You basically have to build willpower and resistance about how to maintain your composure and maintain your mental space among like when it's being attacked, right?
00:45:11
Speaker
And that's kind of the unfortunate reality of being a woman in any type of environment that has men in it is that like you have to build your will and resistance against their stupidity.
00:45:19
Speaker
And it's harder and harder like
00:45:21
Speaker
And a lot of times because women tend to internalize things, it's like, you know, you end up like being put in a position where sometimes it feels like you're silently suffering.
00:45:29
Speaker
But if you kind of devalue men in your mind, you start to learn how to maintain your composure and your dignity and like not let any other bullshit affect you and then make moves to strategically benefit yourself.
00:45:43
Speaker
Exactly.
00:45:43
Speaker
And then the other thing is like controlling your emotions is...
00:45:47
Speaker
Like your verbal like reactions is important, but also learn to control even just your facial expressions, right?
00:45:54
Speaker
Like men are very, very sensitive to women's facial expressions.
00:45:58
Speaker
I find men, I don't know if other women can relate, but I find often when I'm working with men, they are sort of like, they want my approval.
00:46:05
Speaker
Like understand that most men are starved of positive female attention and are desperate for female validation.
00:46:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:12
Speaker
And if you can like withhold that and essentially put like a valve on that and work that to your benefit, you're golden.
00:46:18
Speaker
And so there are some times where it's good to have a poker face.
00:46:21
Speaker
Like you don't want to reveal how you're feeling about a certain situation because, you know, if people know how you feel about something, they could use that against you or something.
00:46:29
Speaker
So sometimes poker face is important.
00:46:31
Speaker
Other times, like this is another reason why I like to like the friend, all the women in my office is that the following scenario has happened so many times where I'm like,
00:46:38
Speaker
Sitting in my lunch break, talking to another woman in my office, and then a guy that we work with comes over to ask this question or talk to us.
00:46:46
Speaker
He says something stupid or that I don't like, and I won't even say anything at all.
00:46:50
Speaker
I just do this sort of face that's like... I don't know how to describe the face.
00:46:53
Speaker
I'm sad that I don't have video right now because I wouldn't dox myself, but I want people to know this face that I do sometimes where I sort of almost hide my lips.
00:47:01
Speaker
You know that face where... You know that face when you greet someone, you just kind of hide your lips?
00:47:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:07
Speaker
I don't know how to describe that facial expression.
00:47:11
Speaker
You wrap your, you suck your teeth, like you like put your lips around your teeth.
00:47:14
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:47:15
Speaker
Like it's not a smile or a frown or anything like that.
00:47:17
Speaker
You just like, it's like a neutral expression, but you just hide your lips.
00:47:20
Speaker
And then I'll like, look at the woman next to me and I won't even say anything at all.
00:47:24
Speaker
But like, we kind of exchanged like these knowing glances.
00:47:27
Speaker
And then the guy just kind of, I don't even have to say anything at all, but the guy just acts totally deflated.
00:47:31
Speaker
Like he just immediately is like, Oh fuck, I fucked up.
00:47:34
Speaker
Like,
00:47:34
Speaker
I don't even have to say anything.
00:47:35
Speaker
And that's the other thing, actually.
00:47:36
Speaker
It's like, if you want guys to, I don't know, be desperate for your approval, it's like getting them to sort of like doubt themselves a little bit with those sorts of moments where, you know, if they're being stupid in front of you and there's another woman sitting next to you and you can both kind of look at each other like, look at this guy kind of thing, right?
00:47:51
Speaker
They'll immediately be like, oh, fuck, did I say something wrong?
00:47:54
Speaker
And kind of like doubt themselves and go on the defensive a little bit.
00:47:56
Speaker
It's kind of mean.
00:47:57
Speaker
But I mean, it works.
00:47:59
Speaker
And then puts him in a sort of defensive position where he's trying to like backpedal and trying to like, you know, win your approval back, so to speak.
00:48:05
Speaker
Right.
00:48:06
Speaker
It sounds really fucked up when I say it out loud.
00:48:08
Speaker
I feel like working with men has turned me into a very like manipulative person, honestly.
00:48:11
Speaker
But I mean, learning how to navigate these sorts of situations, I don't think is a bad thing.
00:48:16
Speaker
I think it's just another skill.
00:48:18
Speaker
Right.
00:48:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:18
Speaker
It's hard because honestly, like, I feel like the older I get, the less energy I have to just directly confront men in a lot of bullshit and like
00:48:26
Speaker
There's just times where I feel like it would just be so much easier if I could just punch you in the face and be done with it.
00:48:30
Speaker
But since we don't have their physical strength advantage, we have to come up with other strategies to basically deal with their bullshit while maintaining our composure because we can't fight them.
00:48:43
Speaker
There's times where it would just be easier to fight them.
00:48:45
Speaker
You're trying to navigate a world in which you are trying to cohabitate with someone who's bigger and stronger than you.
00:48:50
Speaker
It's like being next to a tiger, right?
00:48:53
Speaker
Like a well-trained tiger, but it's still a tiger, right?
00:48:56
Speaker
Like you kind of have to like, you can't like come at it in an aggressive way.
00:48:59
Speaker
Like you kind of have to constantly like manipulate it to do the thing you want.
00:49:03
Speaker
because it's bigger and stronger than you and can snap at any time.
00:49:06
Speaker
So I just more like look at it like when you're interacting with men, you more or less have to find a way to interact with them that benefits you, incentivizes them to do the things that you want.
00:49:16
Speaker
And that sometimes involves manipulation.
00:49:18
Speaker
So it's just sort of a neutral survival strategy to me.
00:49:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:22
Speaker
I mean, I don't think I'm a bad person for coming up with these strategies.
00:49:25
Speaker
Like, this is just what I've learned over the years to survive, like, working with men, okay?
00:49:30
Speaker
And, like, any manipulation that I do against them, they deserve.
00:49:33
Speaker
Because, again, like, oh, I'm supposed to just, like, be direct with them?
00:49:37
Speaker
Like, lay all my cards out on the table?
00:49:39
Speaker
Immediately put myself in an even more disadvantageous position?
00:49:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:43
Speaker
I mean, you won't get very far.
00:49:45
Speaker
I think it's completely ethical, again, because men are physically stronger, they have more institutional power.
00:49:50
Speaker
So for me, like just one of the easiest things is just kind of get them to self destruct.
00:49:54
Speaker
And it's so easy to do because men are already like pretty self destructive for the most part.
00:49:59
Speaker
And so yeah, like getting guys to like, you know, just those like little like looks that I do to other women across the room kind of thing, you know, men sort of like notice that and it gets them to doubt themselves, you know, sort of self destruct a
Building Female Solidarity and Engagement
00:50:11
Speaker
little bit.
00:50:11
Speaker
You know, my message to women, like what I want women to take away from this episode is that, yes, like male solidarity is a political structure that is really challenging for us.
00:50:21
Speaker
But on an individual level or on an interpersonal level, don't assume that a man is going to side with another man in every situation.
00:50:28
Speaker
Men have competing interests.
00:50:29
Speaker
pay attention to those competing interests.
00:50:31
Speaker
And when you notice a conflict between two men, throw gasoline on that shit, play both sides.
00:50:35
Speaker
Okay.
00:50:36
Speaker
Learn to observe social situations and leverage them to your benefit.
00:50:41
Speaker
It's one of the many ways that we as women can actually like build solidarity with each other and usurp patriarchy.
00:50:48
Speaker
Okay, so that's our show.
00:50:50
Speaker
Check us out on our website, thefemaledatingstrategy.com.
00:50:53
Speaker
We can discuss this on our forum.
00:50:55
Speaker
Also, check out our Patreon for weekly bonus content.
00:50:58
Speaker
You can also chat with us about this episode on the Discord and send your own story for a Rose to Scroach episode, which I'm
00:51:04
Speaker
I want to get some Roastest Groats built up so we can do another Thanksgiving roast this year.
00:51:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:51:09
Speaker
Maybe we should do a Halloween roast.
00:51:11
Speaker
Someone like send us your Roastest Groats or your Narcissus or Queen shits.
00:51:15
Speaker
Like and just let us know a story.
00:51:16
Speaker
So you can send that to us on the Patreon.
00:51:19
Speaker
Thanks for listening, Queens.
00:51:20
Speaker
And for all you mad losers out there, die mad.