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How Abusive Men Hold Hostages Via Coercive Control + A Furfillion Red Flags
51 Plays4 years ago
We roast a scrote with a million furfillion red flags and then chat with Director Elle Kamihira about her developing film, Jennifer 42, an animated documentary that takes a close look at the role of coercive control (intimidation and abuse of domestic violence victims by their partners and outside instutions) in the murder of Jennifer Magnano by her husband, and the legislation "Jennifer's Law" passed in her honor.
https://www.jennifer42movie.com/
https://twitter.com/ellekamihira
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Transcript
Zita's Red Flags with Henry
00:00:00
Speaker
Today's roast to scrote is from Zita, who has kindly submitted her story.
00:00:06
Speaker
So let's see which scrote is on the barbecue today.
00:00:10
Speaker
The story begins.
00:00:12
Speaker
So when I was in college, I studied abroad in an Asian country.
00:00:16
Speaker
To learn the local language, I did what most students do and found a language exchange partner.
00:00:21
Speaker
I found that men had fewer options and were more reliable than women, so I chose a guy who was seemingly nice and normal.
00:00:28
Speaker
Let's call him Henry.
00:00:29
Speaker
He was about 15 years older than me.
00:00:33
Speaker
Red flag number one.
00:00:34
Speaker
And still lived at home.
00:00:36
Speaker
Red flag number two.
00:00:37
Speaker
Red flag number two.
00:00:39
Speaker
Still lived at home.
00:00:40
Speaker
I want that you potted there, Savannah, to let that second shoe drop.
00:00:43
Speaker
LAUGHTER
00:00:49
Speaker
Which is normal in that country if you're not married.
00:00:52
Speaker
He had a steady girlfriend.
00:00:55
Speaker
He was hoping to marry.
00:00:56
Speaker
So the first six months of our language exchange were great.
00:01:00
Speaker
Then she dumped him out of the blue, according to him.
00:01:03
Speaker
And boy, did he start getting weird.
00:01:05
Speaker
Yeah, it's never out of the blue.
00:01:06
Speaker
Nah, nah.
00:01:08
Speaker
I want to know what he did.
00:01:09
Speaker
Yeah, right.
00:01:10
Speaker
That's skirt translation usually for... I've now suddenly realized she was serious about all the things she's been talking about with me for months.
00:01:18
Speaker
And that seems out of the blue.
00:01:19
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:01:21
Speaker
I mean, this is only four lines in and it's already got more red flags than Lenin's funeral.
00:01:27
Speaker
Nice.
00:01:31
Speaker
Good one.
00:01:31
Speaker
Let's keep going.
00:01:32
Speaker
He got so drunk one time he missed a step in his own house and came to our meeting with a busted up face.
00:01:39
Speaker
That's when I started getting creepy vibes from him.
00:01:43
Speaker
He alluded to the fact that he had a white girl fetish and was looking for a passport and mixed race babies.
00:01:51
Speaker
I wish you could see my face right now.
00:01:53
Speaker
Wait, he said that out loud?
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:56
Speaker
He said the quiet part out loud?
00:01:58
Speaker
I mean, honestly, like, that is an actual thing.
00:02:00
Speaker
Like, it happens a lot in the UK where, you know, white people primarily will say, I want, like, mixed-race babies.
00:02:07
Speaker
It's actually quite common.
00:02:09
Speaker
It's very bizarre, but it's common.
00:02:12
Speaker
People accuse us of being weird eugenicists.
00:02:16
Speaker
No, it's definitely a thing.
00:02:17
Speaker
Definitely a thing.
00:02:19
Speaker
It's a little bit disturbing to be like, I don't really care about you as a person.
00:02:23
Speaker
I just have this racialized fetish and I'm going to pass that on to my children.
00:02:28
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:02:29
Speaker
And fill them with issues and self-loathing and confusion.
00:02:32
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
Henry's Unreliable Nature
00:02:33
Speaker
He had a decent job at a bank, but he started hinting he was rich, which was doubtful, and that his parents were prominent and well-connected.
00:02:41
Speaker
Basically trying to pretend he was a catcher.
00:02:45
Speaker
in the wild.
00:02:46
Speaker
Cap, cap, cap.
00:02:47
Speaker
Cap in.
00:02:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:50
Speaker
That's all men have is the audacity.
00:02:53
Speaker
When they have nothing else, they have audacity.
00:02:55
Speaker
Cap.
00:02:56
Speaker
The cap is too much.
00:02:57
Speaker
More cap in than crunch.
00:02:59
Speaker
He was basically trying to pretend he was a cat, whilst in the same breath...
00:03:08
Speaker
Basically trying to pretend he was a catch whilst in the same breath admitting that his mum still made his lunch and did his lunch.
00:03:16
Speaker
Fuck me.
00:03:17
Speaker
Fuck me.
00:03:18
Speaker
This man.
00:03:21
Speaker
My mommy makes my lunch and my laundry.
00:03:24
Speaker
Oh gosh, okay.
00:03:25
Speaker
And he's what, like almost 40?
00:03:26
Speaker
Ew.
00:03:26
Speaker
But I'm a catch.
00:03:29
Speaker
Scroat logic.
00:03:30
Speaker
I mean, if she was in college, let's say 20, he must be about 35.
00:03:34
Speaker
But since he was a reliable language exchange partner, I basically just overlooked these red flags since I wasn't interested in dating him and we always met in public.
00:03:44
Speaker
And then I went to a spa with my roommate at a local hotel.
00:03:47
Speaker
I brought the hotel's free water bottle to my meeting with Henry, and he absolutely flipped and accused me of going there with a man.
00:03:54
Speaker
Wait, he's not even your man though yet, right?
00:03:55
Speaker
He's just a language exchange partner.
00:03:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:03:58
Speaker
Where's he?
00:03:59
Speaker
Where's he going out telling you anything?
00:04:00
Speaker
Like, that ain't your man.
00:04:01
Speaker
That's not, he's not your man.
00:04:03
Speaker
I'm confused right now.
00:04:04
Speaker
It's also kind of weird that he's flipping out over a water bottle.
00:04:08
Speaker
I think we're starting to see why Henry was dumped, quote unquote, suddenly out of the blue.
00:04:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:04:14
Speaker
It becomes clearer, definitely.
Henry's Absurd Behavior
00:04:16
Speaker
But we'll continue with Azita's tale of woe because it gets a lot worse.
00:04:21
Speaker
The next time we were at a coffee shop and he covered his nose with one hand and picked both nostrils for a full minute.
00:04:27
Speaker
What?
00:04:28
Speaker
What?
00:04:30
Speaker
She timed it as well.
00:04:32
Speaker
She timed it.
00:04:34
Speaker
I mean, that's one more minute.
00:04:37
Speaker
That's one minute wasted of your life and one minute that should have been such a red flag you got up and left.
00:04:42
Speaker
Oh my god.
00:04:42
Speaker
He then reached across the table, used the same fingers he'd been picking his nose with, to take a piece of my dessert without asking, and then winked at me.
00:04:51
Speaker
Oh, hell no.
00:04:54
Speaker
Ew.
00:04:54
Speaker
So bad table manners.
00:04:55
Speaker
What flag are we on now?
00:04:57
Speaker
I can't remember what flag we're on.
00:04:59
Speaker
I think there's like 10 at least so far.
00:05:01
Speaker
But yeah.
00:05:02
Speaker
This is a communist rally of red flags, literally communist rally.
00:05:05
Speaker
I'm just like, hey, that's offensive to communists.
00:05:09
Speaker
I mean, no disrespect to listeners who are communists, but I mean, they use red flags, so it is what it is.
00:05:17
Speaker
I almost threw up and just pushed the whole dessert across the table to him.
00:05:22
Speaker
Then he went on a business trip.
00:05:23
Speaker
He came back and bragged about being entertained by a different woman every night, trying to make me jealous of prostitutes.
00:05:32
Speaker
Cap, cap, capping again.
00:05:33
Speaker
Just capping.
00:05:34
Speaker
Oh, but at least he bought me a gift.
00:05:37
Speaker
A pen and calendar from his bank's branch office in that country.
00:05:41
Speaker
How thoughtful.
00:05:42
Speaker
Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
00:05:44
Speaker
That reminds me of, like, you remember that TikTok a while back of a sugar baby being like, look at all the stuff that my sugar daddy got for me, and it's like a hat and, like, some leggings and some small... I'm just imagining, like, imagining your sugar daddy going to, like, a college campus getting you a bunch of free pens and, like, free hats...
00:06:02
Speaker
Bring you the hotel shampoos.
00:06:04
Speaker
Like, look at me.
00:06:04
Speaker
Yes, I am such a sugar daddy.
00:06:06
Speaker
And like, no, bitch, you're a splendid daddy.
00:06:08
Speaker
Bring you the hotel shampoos.
00:06:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:10
Speaker
Legit.
00:06:11
Speaker
Look at my bountiful wealth of accumulated hand towels.
00:06:15
Speaker
All this can be yours.
Control and Manipulation
00:06:21
Speaker
The final straw, though, is during our last meeting.
00:06:24
Speaker
We were at a coffee shop.
00:06:25
Speaker
They seem to really favor coffee dates, which is a massive red flag in itself.
00:06:29
Speaker
But I digress.
00:06:31
Speaker
Yeah, too many freaking coffee dates.
00:06:33
Speaker
Oh, right.
00:06:34
Speaker
You didn't even get to that part.
00:06:38
Speaker
You should have never been here.
00:06:39
Speaker
Sounds like they literally lived in a coffee shop.
00:06:41
Speaker
Anyway, I digress.
00:06:44
Speaker
So we were at a coffee shop and he says he wants to practice conditional grammar.
00:06:48
Speaker
So, you know, like, for example, what if is conditional grammar.
00:06:53
Speaker
And so he asked me, so what if your boyfriend got you pregnant and you didn't want the baby?
00:06:57
Speaker
What?
00:06:58
Speaker
Abortion.
00:06:59
Speaker
That's my answer.
00:07:02
Speaker
Well, yeah, it's your decision, right?
00:07:03
Speaker
But she said I wouldn't be stupid enough to get pregnant by my boyfriend, which, okay, fair response.
00:07:09
Speaker
Okay, so he says, okay, fine, but what if it were your husband?
00:07:14
Speaker
And I told him, if it were my husband, hopefully we planned it, and if not, we could discuss it.
00:07:19
Speaker
And he says, but what if you didn't want it and your husband did?
00:07:23
Speaker
I told him that at the end of the day, it's my body and I'll do what I want.
00:07:26
Speaker
And right there in the middle of the coffee shop, he slammed his palm on the table and nailed, you are not getting an abortion!
00:07:33
Speaker
What?
00:07:34
Speaker
Yeah, somehow I feel like this is not about her.
00:07:36
Speaker
He's trying to baby trap her.
00:07:38
Speaker
He is poking holes in the condoms.
00:07:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:40
Speaker
Or this is what happened with his ex-girlfriend.
00:07:42
Speaker
This might have been why she left because she was probably like, this guy's a psychopath.
00:07:47
Speaker
I'm aborting your baby and peace out.
00:07:49
Speaker
Which quaint.
00:07:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:51
Speaker
Like, it sounds like he's projecting his issues.
00:07:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:54
Speaker
He's trying to start an argument.
00:07:55
Speaker
He wanted to have his ex-girlfriend with her.
00:07:58
Speaker
That's what it sounds like to me.
00:07:59
Speaker
That this is a continuation of an argument he didn't win last time.
00:08:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:03
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:08:07
Speaker
And of course, after his outburst, everyone turned to look.
00:08:09
Speaker
I mean, I was so embarrassed and scared, I got out of there as soon as I could.
00:08:15
Speaker
I went home and Googled him, and his username popped up on all these BDSM websites.
00:08:20
Speaker
Okay!
00:08:21
Speaker
I couldn't read it, so I put it in Google Translate, and...
00:08:25
Speaker
It was bad.
00:08:26
Speaker
What is this?
00:08:27
Speaker
100,000 million for Philly and red flag?
00:08:29
Speaker
I don't... I never met with him again.
00:08:34
Speaker
But seven years later, I was selling a sofa online and she was using only her first name.
00:08:40
Speaker
And probably based on her location, he guessed it was me and sent an email.
00:08:45
Speaker
I never responded, but was really shook.
00:08:48
Speaker
I hope he never got married or procreated.
00:08:50
Speaker
You and me both, sis.
00:08:51
Speaker
Fucking hell.
00:08:52
Speaker
What was that?
00:08:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:53
Speaker
Yeah, we're all over here holding our breath.
00:08:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:55
Speaker
We're over here holding our breath and our breasts close to our chest.
00:09:00
Speaker
Rocking back and forth.
00:09:01
Speaker
Cupping my boobs and my hands in shock.
00:09:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:04
Speaker
That's what I do to comfort myself.
00:09:06
Speaker
Hoping this man never procreates.
Panel's Concerns on Abuse
00:09:10
Speaker
Gosh.
00:09:11
Speaker
How do you even begin a roast?
00:09:14
Speaker
Like, oh my gosh.
00:09:16
Speaker
Yeah, the whole time with the whole like abortion thing, I was like, he's trying to baby trap her.
00:09:22
Speaker
No, the moment he said, I want a biracial child, that was like, he's trying to baby trap her.
00:09:26
Speaker
Yes.
00:09:28
Speaker
And he was looking for a passport as well.
00:09:30
Speaker
So clearly trying to baby trap her.
00:09:32
Speaker
He's trying to make her pregnant with his child.
00:09:34
Speaker
It's going to be difficult for her to leave.
00:09:36
Speaker
Therefore, he can, I don't know, weasel his way to a more desirable passport.
00:09:41
Speaker
What a scrote!
00:09:42
Speaker
Oh my god!
00:09:43
Speaker
Gosh!
00:09:44
Speaker
It's almost hard to roast this guy because he sounds like crazy abusive.
00:09:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:49
Speaker
Like, it feels too serious to make light of.
00:09:52
Speaker
Wait, wait, back up.
00:09:52
Speaker
So she said it's been seven years since I dated him.
00:09:56
Speaker
So he's 42 at least now, right?
00:09:58
Speaker
In his 40s, yeah.
00:09:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:00
Speaker
Okay.
00:10:01
Speaker
So we can roast him for being 40.
00:10:02
Speaker
He's a post-waltz scrote, probably chasing young women still.
00:10:07
Speaker
His mom still does his laundry and they're all just looking at him repulsed.
00:10:12
Speaker
Probably still got skid marks in his boxes as well.
00:10:15
Speaker
Yeah, he hasn't had to do his own laundry.
00:10:16
Speaker
He hasn't learned.
00:10:17
Speaker
He hasn't learned.
00:10:18
Speaker
That's the thing.
00:10:19
Speaker
If they're not forced to clean up after themselves, they don't learn how dirty they're being because you start to notice how dirty you are when you're forced to clean it.
00:10:27
Speaker
So you just know this man is filthy.
00:10:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:30
Speaker
I feel bad for his poor mom.
00:10:32
Speaker
Like, you know, but also at the same time, a little bit.
00:10:34
Speaker
It's partially her fault, though.
00:10:36
Speaker
She got that crazy ass man in her house.
00:10:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:38
Speaker
A little bit suspicious of the mom for enabling the scrotery.
00:10:42
Speaker
But yeah.
00:10:43
Speaker
The coterie of scrotes.
00:10:44
Speaker
A scrotery.
00:10:45
Speaker
The coterie of scrotes.
00:10:48
Speaker
A coterie of scrotes.
00:10:49
Speaker
It's a scrotery.
00:10:50
Speaker
It's a scrotery.
00:10:53
Speaker
Coder, he was great too.
00:10:54
Speaker
Gosh, that's just, and the BDSM was just.
00:10:58
Speaker
Yeah, I want to know what BDSM was he was into.
00:11:01
Speaker
Was he a dom?
00:11:02
Speaker
He must have been a dom.
00:11:04
Speaker
He must have been a dom.
00:11:07
Speaker
Yeah, the BDSM part is just like the maraschino cherry on top of the shit cake.
00:11:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:14
Speaker
Like, I've yet to meet a guy who is, like, I feel like doms, like, men who are doms, they're mostly losers in real life.
00:11:22
Speaker
So I feel like it's almost like a manifestation of them feeling like a total loser and powerless.
00:11:28
Speaker
And so they want to abuse a woman because it makes themselves feel, like, in control.
00:11:33
Speaker
It's the same thing as people who play, like, World of Warcraft and stuff because they don't have any control in their real life.
00:11:38
Speaker
And so...
00:11:40
Speaker
Or like Minecraft or whatever, by having some control in this virtual world, it makes them feel better about themselves.
00:11:45
Speaker
Which I actually think is better than BDSM, because at least with video games, these are fictional people, you're not actually hurting anyone.
00:11:53
Speaker
Whereas with BDSM, you're literally physically abusing someone else.
00:11:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:59
Speaker
And that's a good point because whenever you hear BDSM being talked about in magazines, they always talk about like, oh, sometimes powerful people want to feel like they're not in control in BDSM.
00:12:08
Speaker
And so that's why they do this.
00:12:09
Speaker
But I'm like, what about all the not powerful people that do that so they can feel powerful against people that they can't?
00:12:16
Speaker
How come they never talk about that aspect of it?
00:12:20
Speaker
Right.
00:12:20
Speaker
It seems like a very one sided presentation.
00:12:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:23
Speaker
Why is it always about a powerful person wanting to give up power and not like a loser?
00:12:28
Speaker
Who wants to get more power.
00:12:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:31
Speaker
Like a power hungry loser.
00:12:32
Speaker
And what?
00:12:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:33
Speaker
Why do we privilege these already privileged people's wants other than like the fact that there's just as many, if not more of these like completely powerless, disgusting scrotes who use this for abuse?
00:12:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:43
Speaker
You know, they're not even reclaiming power.
00:12:45
Speaker
It's power they never had in the first place that they're trying to claw back under the guise of being a dom.
00:12:51
Speaker
Yeah, basically all this BDSM stuff is just like a gateway drug for patriarchy.
00:12:55
Speaker
Like, it's a sneaky...
00:12:58
Speaker
It's one of those like sneaky ways that patriarchy is trying to come back.
00:13:01
Speaker
You know, it's like, well, now I can't like beat my wife in like a way where I'll get away with it as at least not as easily as before.
00:13:09
Speaker
And so now I'm going to do it because it's a sex game and it's a kink or BDSM.
00:13:14
Speaker
Well, it seems like Gail Dine said from the interview in the previous week is that it just seems like the Ivies, again, like downloading their privileged values where from their perspective, they're always in power.
00:13:25
Speaker
So they always look at it from the perspective of someone who's already in power, who wants to feel that they're not in power and not understanding like the vast majority of people who
Coercive Control in Society
00:13:33
Speaker
that does not apply to.
00:13:35
Speaker
So once again, we're hearing the privileged side of the BDSM story.
00:13:39
Speaker
I was not expecting like a sociological analysis based on this roast-a-scrote.
00:13:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:44
Speaker
Okay.
00:13:44
Speaker
So thank you, Vixen, for your roastess groat.
00:13:48
Speaker
If any of our other listeners would like to submit their very own roastess groat or Gnostic or Queen shit, please go to our Patreon at patreon.com forward slash the female dating strategy and submit your story to us.
00:14:00
Speaker
Sign up for one of our tiers.
00:14:02
Speaker
Let's start the show.
00:14:03
Speaker
Before we get started, I just want to make a brief announcement about the state of the pod.
00:14:07
Speaker
We've been getting tons of amazing feedback from women, and it's become very clear to us that a lot of women are thirsty for this type of content.
00:14:15
Speaker
This is a niche in women's media that is desperately needed and has been neglected for a very long time.
00:14:21
Speaker
and we really want to be able to make more content if there's just one problem, and that's money.
00:14:26
Speaker
We would love to be able to quit our day jobs and work full-time on content creation, and the only thing holding us back is the fact that we got bills to pay, if I'm being totally honest.
00:14:35
Speaker
Long term, though, we would like to expand into other forms of media, such as video, TikTok, newsletters, ebooks, even like real physical books, and so on.
00:14:47
Speaker
And that's why we've set a new Patreon goal.
00:14:50
Speaker
As soon as we hit $10,000 monthly revenue, that will be enough for us to afford to quit our jobs and start working on growing FDS full time.
00:14:58
Speaker
Currently, our schedules only really allow us to post about 60 to 90 minutes of bonus content per month.
00:15:05
Speaker
And as a reward to our patrons for helping achieve this target, we will commit to posting more bonus content.
00:15:12
Speaker
So if you like FDS and you want us to grow and you want us to make more content, you can support us on Patreon at www.patreon.com forward slash the female dating strategy.
00:15:24
Speaker
And for the next 48 hours, we'll be offering a limited time offer called Lurker Mode, where you can access the bonus content at a reduced price of $5.99 per month.
00:15:35
Speaker
Thank you so much to everyone who listened and shared to help us to get to where we are now.
00:15:39
Speaker
And I'm sure this is a sign of even greater things to come.
00:15:42
Speaker
Thank you.
00:15:49
Speaker
What's up, queens?
00:15:50
Speaker
Welcome to the Female Dating Strategy Podcast, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet.
00:15:54
Speaker
I'm your host, Ro.
00:15:55
Speaker
And I'm Savannah.
00:15:56
Speaker
And this is Lila.
00:15:57
Speaker
And today on our podcast, we have Elle Kamihira, a multi-genre film director and producer.
00:16:02
Speaker
She's here with us today to talk about Chorus of Control and her latest film, which is Jennifer 42, an animated true crime documentary about Jennifer Magnano, told from the perspective of her surviving children.
00:16:14
Speaker
Thank
'Jennifer 42' and Domestic Abuse
00:16:15
Speaker
you.
00:16:15
Speaker
I'm so glad to be here.
00:16:16
Speaker
Absolutely love, love your content.
00:16:19
Speaker
And I'm looking forward to sharing all I know.
00:16:23
Speaker
Thank you.
00:16:23
Speaker
Awesome.
00:16:24
Speaker
Thank you.
00:16:25
Speaker
I saw the teaser for Jennifer 42.
00:16:29
Speaker
And it just absolutely sent chills right down my spine and immediately thought like, I need to have you on our podcast.
00:16:36
Speaker
Jennifer Magnano stories, you know, for many women, it's like our worst nightmare.
00:16:40
Speaker
So, you know, could you tell us more about Jennifer Magnano and her and her story?
00:16:44
Speaker
So, Jennifer 42 is about Jennifer Magnano and her three children struggle to escape the violence and control of their dad, Scott Magnano.
00:16:57
Speaker
And the way I found my way to the story is that I was researching coercive control.
00:17:05
Speaker
And I came across an investigative homicide review done by Michelle Cruz, the then victim's advocate in Connecticut, state of Connecticut.
00:17:17
Speaker
And she had written this, like, extremely detailed, very damning report about the homicide of Jennifer Magnano.
00:17:26
Speaker
And so when I read that, I just really felt the need to tell her story because it's so emblematic of what we don't understand about domestic abuse and what we desperately need to learn.
00:17:42
Speaker
So I started working with her surviving children, three kids, Jessica, David, and Emily, who are now grown.
00:17:52
Speaker
But they were, you know, 9, 16, and 21 when all this went down.
00:18:00
Speaker
So the story, Jennifer 42, goes back into their kind of hidden family history, covering, you know, 15 years of an evolving abusive situation where their dad progressively got more and more controlling and started sort of micromanaging and
00:18:22
Speaker
And taking control of like every aspect of their lives.
00:18:27
Speaker
Most of all, Jennifer's, you know, to the point where they couldn't go anywhere without his permission.
00:18:33
Speaker
They couldn't move about the house.
00:18:35
Speaker
Jennifer was chained to the kitchen, not literally chained, but she wasn't allowed to...
00:18:42
Speaker
To move about the house, she had to stay in the kitchen and just kind of await Scott's every command.
00:18:50
Speaker
It went to complete absurdity where, you know, he made rules for how to wash their hands and how to shower, how to dress, and like what temperature the water could be, like everything.
00:19:04
Speaker
There was no how to switch, you know, flip a light switch, how to vacuum, how to do anything at all.
00:19:10
Speaker
And so their lives became this sort of nightmare of rules and regulations that they just couldn't escape from and had their time and attention completely monopolized by this fear of or else, you know.
00:19:27
Speaker
He created a system of rules and regulations, but with punishments if they didn't obey his specific rules.
00:19:39
Speaker
Over time, the situation got more and more escalated, and finally he, Scott, got more violent towards all members of the family, in particular Jennifer.
00:19:51
Speaker
So finally she had had enough and they made a plan together, she and the children, and escaped and got away.
00:20:00
Speaker
But they thought, of course, that they were running to safety.
00:20:04
Speaker
What they met in the real world was a lot of indifference and they couldn't get...
00:20:11
Speaker
help anywhere they turned locally.
00:20:14
Speaker
The shelter wouldn't take them because one of her daughters, you know, Jessica was an adult and David was a teenage male and they just couldn't get the help they needed.
00:20:27
Speaker
So Scott, of course, was on their track right away and was starting to hunt them down in the town they lived in.
00:20:37
Speaker
So they had to save themselves again and hopped on a
00:20:41
Speaker
on a train to California without food or money or anything.
00:20:46
Speaker
When they got to California, they finally, you know, they had found a shelter that would take them and the California system kind of wrapped their arms around the family and they started to recover and get the help they needed.
00:21:02
Speaker
But back in Connecticut, Scott was not apprehended by
00:21:09
Speaker
but not even interviewed by the police.
00:21:12
Speaker
They didn't, Jennifer had filed a police report before she left town and that just sat on the desk.
00:21:22
Speaker
So nothing happened with Scott.
00:21:26
Speaker
So he started sort of working the system
00:21:30
Speaker
Telling them that Jennifer had kidnapped the kids and so on.
00:21:33
Speaker
That's interesting you bring that up about there not being a police report.
00:21:36
Speaker
Because we just did some bonus content about Josh Duggar and how when he was confronted, I almost say confronted was the only thing that happened about sexually abusing what allegedly was his sisters and his sister's friends.
00:21:51
Speaker
They basically went to the sheriff and the sheriff didn't even record it.
00:21:54
Speaker
The sheriff basically gave him like a knock it off.
00:21:58
Speaker
And he was able to bypass prosecution because they just, for whatever reason, didn't take the crime seriously.
00:22:05
Speaker
And that's very much what happened in this case.
00:22:07
Speaker
They just didn't do anything.
00:22:10
Speaker
The local police just, I think, felt that he was untouchable and that she was at fault somehow.
00:22:18
Speaker
They basically buy his version of events wholesale.
00:22:23
Speaker
He filed for custody of the kids and they gave it to him sight unseen without asking any questions.
00:22:30
Speaker
Jennifer was threatened with getting arrested and losing her kids and she was terrified.
00:22:37
Speaker
Connecticut compelled her to come back, they said, in court, you know, facing your abuser here in Connecticut.
00:22:47
Speaker
which was not the law at the time at all.
00:22:50
Speaker
She put her trust in the justice system and came back to Connecticut.
00:22:55
Speaker
She did, you know, hire a lawyer and fought really hard for herself, both from the divorce and did, you know, did everything she was told, followed all the rules.
00:23:07
Speaker
Meanwhile, Scott
00:23:08
Speaker
didn't face any consequences whatsoever.
00:23:11
Speaker
He was just never, never even spoken to by the police or anyone.
00:23:17
Speaker
Jennifer ended up winning in the end.
00:23:20
Speaker
She won custody of the kids and she actually won the family house, which she hadn't expected.
00:23:26
Speaker
But she was so terrified that she knew she couldn't, you know, he had threatened to kill her.
00:23:31
Speaker
every day of her life up until that point.
00:23:34
Speaker
So she knew she couldn't stay in town.
00:23:38
Speaker
So she went to the house under police escort.
00:23:42
Speaker
They swept the house and gave her the clear and she went into the house to collect her belongings and he had hidden in the basement and ambushed her.
00:23:53
Speaker
tried to drag her away to the car, but she fought back, probably for the first time ever, and he shot her.
00:24:05
Speaker
And killed her in front of the kids who were there.
00:24:08
Speaker
Ooh, the story just makes my blood boil.
00:24:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:12
Speaker
So she had done, she had literally done everything, you know, abuse victims are told to do.
00:24:19
Speaker
She had gotten herself to safety.
00:24:21
Speaker
She had mobilized her friends to protect her and hide her, gotten help from the shelter and everything else.
00:24:28
Speaker
And then the state of Connecticut just... Completely failed her.
00:24:33
Speaker
Got her killed.
00:24:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:35
Speaker
So now I gave you the whole plot of the film, there'll be no reason to come and see the film.
00:24:40
Speaker
No, I think that sort of storytelling is so important in not just hearing like a five minute recap on a podcast, right?
00:24:47
Speaker
So I really hope that people do go out and watch the movie.
00:24:51
Speaker
Anyways, I definitely am.
00:24:55
Speaker
But, you know, you mentioned earlier that they're passing a new law called Jennifer's Law.
00:25:02
Speaker
And so this is, it sounds like an attempt to address some of the issues that were raised in Jennifer Magnano's case.
00:25:10
Speaker
And so could you tell us more about Jennifer's Law and what it means?
00:25:14
Speaker
And it was passed, right?
00:25:16
Speaker
Sure.
00:25:17
Speaker
Yeah, it was passed in the House of Representatives, Connecticut House of Representatives yesterday.
00:25:22
Speaker
Awesome.
00:25:23
Speaker
That's amazing.
00:25:24
Speaker
Last night, in fact.
00:25:26
Speaker
And so it's being signed into law now.
00:25:29
Speaker
And so we're kind of celebrating that.
00:25:32
Speaker
And it's a huge win for us.
00:25:34
Speaker
Jennifer's Law, just to give it a little background.
00:25:40
Speaker
So our domestic violence response system is a trillion dollar bill.
00:25:47
Speaker
you know, we call it the DV industrial complex.
00:25:51
Speaker
Agencies, shelters, hotlines, we spend billions of dollars.
00:25:54
Speaker
But the truth is, we really are not lowering the number of women murdered by their male partners or exes.
00:26:02
Speaker
That number has been static for a long time.
00:26:04
Speaker
And we've seen a mad uptick over the pandemic.
00:26:08
Speaker
The reason why we believe that
00:26:11
Speaker
We haven't been able to reduce the number of women killed in these situations is that they have domestic violence wrong as a concept.
00:26:21
Speaker
The law currently is that people will get arrested and charged for incidences, isolated incidences of violence.
00:26:31
Speaker
Whereas we know that domestic violence is a pattern of behaviors, a range of behaviors over time that includes psychological abuse, emotional abuse, belittling, humiliation, threats, cruelty, financial abuse, sexual abuse.
00:26:50
Speaker
It's a coordinated...
00:26:52
Speaker
attack on another person, basically, over time.
00:26:56
Speaker
And so Jennifer's Law expands the definition of domestic violence to include all of these behaviors as a tactic over time, coercive control and the whole full range of
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah, one of the things that I've noticed, even with, you know, on female dating strategies, that abusive people all have this script.
00:27:15
Speaker
It's like, it's, you know, it's crazy when you get a bunch of women together in a room to talk about their experiences, and abusive men will literally say the exact same words and phrases, right?
00:27:26
Speaker
And it follows a very, very basic formula.
00:27:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:30
Speaker
It's a playbook.
00:27:31
Speaker
It's a playbook.
00:27:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:33
Speaker
It's a playbook.
00:27:34
Speaker
And so if you are the person in, you know, experiencing it and you don't know about this formula, you don't know about this playbook, it can make, you can almost be led to feel like you're the crazy one.
00:27:45
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:27:45
Speaker
The other person's, uh,
00:27:47
Speaker
totally fine and you're the problem kind of thing, right?
00:27:49
Speaker
And so, and when we, we at FDS have made it our mission essentially to call out this pattern, these patterns, these playbooks.
00:27:59
Speaker
And guys will get really mad at us, right?
00:28:01
Speaker
They'll be like, oh, you know, like he doesn't mean it that way when he says this or that, or maybe he meant something else or so on, right?
00:28:07
Speaker
Like men on the internet are fully invested in like gaslighting women out of noticing these patterns, right?
00:28:13
Speaker
And so, you know, what are some, I guess,
00:28:16
Speaker
the question I have for you is, you know, what are some of the, like, what is coercive control,
Recognizing Coercive Control
00:28:21
Speaker
I guess?
00:28:21
Speaker
And what are the like red flags that women, because it builds up over time, right?
00:28:26
Speaker
But what are some like the early red flags that women can watch out for to protect themselves?
00:28:32
Speaker
Yeah, sure.
00:28:33
Speaker
I mean, that's a lot to unpack.
00:28:36
Speaker
But I think the kind of like fundamental thing to understand about it is that generally speaking,
00:28:44
Speaker
men's violence against women occurs within the context of women's and girls' subordinate status in society.
00:28:52
Speaker
And it serves to maintain that unequal balance of power.
00:28:56
Speaker
That's kind of like a fundamental thing to remember.
00:28:58
Speaker
Coercive control, and I think this is really, really important to talk about right now, because
00:29:06
Speaker
In the domestic violence field, there is a movement to de-gender or gender neutralize, I should say, gender neutralize abuse.
00:29:17
Speaker
To say that it's, you know, they call it intimate partner violence or, you know, all kinds of like genderless terms.
00:29:24
Speaker
Abuse can happen to anyone, you know, men get abused too, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:29:29
Speaker
I think it's really, really important to acknowledge that coercive control and domestic abuse is predicated on the devalued status of women.
00:29:37
Speaker
I'm quoting Evan Stark there, meaning that coercive control is kind of rooted in the fact that
00:29:46
Speaker
women have a lower status in society than men, and that there is an already power imbalance by the fact that you have a man and a woman in a house where the man is a first-class citizen and the woman is a second-class citizen just by the fact of how society is structured.
00:30:05
Speaker
Yeah, they have to ignore all the interconnected systems of power that make that possible to make that kind of gender neutral claim.
00:30:11
Speaker
And the entire basis of Jennifer's law was the fact that the police force and the state helped to event their inaction and or way that they sort of took the man's side automatically is what enabled him to eventually murder her.
00:30:31
Speaker
That's right.
00:30:32
Speaker
I mean, we talk about a male alliance in these situations where there is an informal kind of male alliance that where in these situations where women are crying wolf, if you will, they link hands or link arms to protect each other.
00:30:59
Speaker
And I think that very much happened in this case also where, you know, they didn't want to incriminate Scott Magnano.
00:31:09
Speaker
He was a fellow guy.
00:31:12
Speaker
Well, we talk all the time about how police are usually, or like 40% of them apparently are domestic abusers as well.
00:31:17
Speaker
So, like, they saw him probably as a fellow bro.
00:31:21
Speaker
Like, yeah, like teaming up, beating our wives together kind of thing.
00:31:24
Speaker
So...
00:31:25
Speaker
I talked about this too on our bonus content about how I had a relative that was in a domestic violent situation.
00:31:31
Speaker
And when she went to get divorced, and she'd been hospitalized a few times because of the abuse.
00:31:36
Speaker
When she went to get divorced, maybe about half the times her husband was arrested was actually recorded.
00:31:41
Speaker
Like a lot of the times when the cops came to the house, they just sort of picked him up and then let him back out and never filed a police report.
00:31:49
Speaker
So then when she went to get divorced, it was harder to prove that.
00:31:52
Speaker
the volume of incidents of domestic violence that occurred.
00:31:56
Speaker
Yeah, and we talk about this, you know, united front of misogyny that men seem to have where they link hands and all seem like united in their mission to oppress women.
00:32:08
Speaker
And people call us crazy for that.
00:32:09
Speaker
They'll say like, oh, you're acting like there's this whole conspiracy or like, you know, calling us conspiracy theorists for noticing how men work together to, you know, they have this sort of, you know, unofficial code or whatever to support one another and to not challenge other male abusers.
00:32:27
Speaker
And so, and back to what you were saying about the gender neutral stuff, because, um,
00:32:32
Speaker
I was reading some articles about how they tried to change the name of Jennifer's Law to something gender neutral, like on domestic violence or something, some long and weird title.
00:32:45
Speaker
Yeah, they were very anxious to have the name of two murdered women off that law.
00:32:51
Speaker
Why?
00:32:54
Speaker
Why?
00:32:55
Speaker
Why?
00:32:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good question.
00:32:57
Speaker
Woke misogyny.
00:32:59
Speaker
Well, I mean, you know, we can, I can talk about this all day.
00:33:03
Speaker
Woke misogyny, 100%.
00:33:05
Speaker
In Connecticut, our biggest opposition...
00:33:11
Speaker
was the five big DV domestic violence agencies.
00:33:17
Speaker
That's who were, you know, were our biggest rivals and opponents.
00:33:21
Speaker
It doesn't make any sense because they, I can't pretend to fully understand, but I do think that the domestic violence agency world is captured by other patriarchal systems.
00:33:38
Speaker
I think they are captive of money, federal money.
00:33:43
Speaker
They're all federally funded.
00:33:45
Speaker
I think they're captive of the general criminal justice system, which is still, you know, extremely male and in the business of protecting the interests of men.
00:33:55
Speaker
It's been interesting to see, too, about how easy it is to kind of manipulate certain narratives, because I know that they're always doing different research on domestic violence and trying to be conclusive.
00:34:05
Speaker
But sometimes I feel like in the attempts to be inclusive, they end up not helping anybody because they don't, you know, they don't focus on specific types of things.
00:34:16
Speaker
coercion, specific types of abusive systems.
00:34:19
Speaker
I think if you want to tear down the abusive system, you have to look at the specifics of what's causing it rather than sort of a just broad, general idea that abuse should stop.
00:34:28
Speaker
Like, you have to look at the steps to get there.
00:34:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:31
Speaker
The title, by the way, just to circle back, the title that they wanted to change it to, I guess, or the official title was, An Act Concerning a Study of Criminal Laws of This State.
00:34:42
Speaker
which is bullshit.
00:34:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:44
Speaker
I mean, word salad.
00:34:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:46
Speaker
Like, what is that?
00:34:47
Speaker
What is that?
00:34:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:49
Speaker
It's a lot of obfuscation.
00:34:51
Speaker
You know, I think it's one part is people who like things just the way they are.
00:34:56
Speaker
And another part is people who are just too afraid to rock the boat.
00:35:01
Speaker
And so these domestic violence, I guess, you know, organizations that were opposing this law, like what were their arguments?
00:35:09
Speaker
Like, what were they even trying to say?
00:35:11
Speaker
I wasn't in those back rooms where those conversations took place, but I do know that it has to do with money, federal funding.
00:35:23
Speaker
It has to do with there's a lot of money in law, divorce law, family court.
00:35:30
Speaker
Family court is famously corrupt in every state.
00:35:35
Speaker
DV agencies sort of work hand in hand with family court.
00:35:39
Speaker
I don't know exactly where things fall apart.
00:35:42
Speaker
That's not my kind of area of expertise yet, but they are not on our side.
00:35:51
Speaker
I know that.
00:35:52
Speaker
They're not on our side of wanting to make, you know, fundamental change and make stronger protections for women.
00:36:00
Speaker
Damn, that is haunting.
00:36:03
Speaker
And that makes me so angry.
00:36:04
Speaker
Yeah, that is.
00:36:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:09
Speaker
But I wanted to go back to your earlier question about like,
00:36:14
Speaker
what women, you know, dating women should look out for.
00:36:19
Speaker
Because I think that's a really good question.
00:36:22
Speaker
And again, like a little bit back to fundamentals, like we are, you know, we're socialized a certain way, like we're socialized to accept that men are dominant.
00:36:36
Speaker
And that they have an entitlement to have their needs met.
00:36:40
Speaker
And women are socialized to take care of others' needs before our
Socialization and Power Imbalances
00:36:46
Speaker
own.
00:36:46
Speaker
And I think women should pay really, really careful attention to the power balance between yourself and a partner.
00:36:57
Speaker
And I don't know that we do that enough that we see, like, who dictates the terms of their relationship?
00:37:04
Speaker
And do you have, going into it, significantly less power than your male partner?
00:37:12
Speaker
and be wary of that.
00:37:14
Speaker
I also think, I mean, my daughter is 30 now, and she has a boyfriend, so she's not in the market.
00:37:20
Speaker
But I think if I was raising that daughter now, I would just tell her in no uncertain terms that, like, choosing a male partner is a risky business, and that it can have devastating consequences if you choose someone else.
00:37:40
Speaker
choose wrong and that you should carefully vet your partner, you know, before, before going, going too far into anything.
00:37:51
Speaker
And that's where we come in.
00:37:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:54
Speaker
Yeah, because what happens is whenever these cases happen, they always say, oh, it's your fault because you picked the wrong guy.
00:37:59
Speaker
Or, you know, you're, you know, they immediately question the woman like, oh, he did this or that.
00:38:05
Speaker
Why didn't you leave?
00:38:06
Speaker
And so FDS comes in.
00:38:07
Speaker
We're like, OK, here's a list of things to look out for.
00:38:10
Speaker
And if a guy does any things, any of these things, dump him.
00:38:12
Speaker
And the reaction's been insane, right?
00:38:14
Speaker
The reaction has been, that's unreasonable.
00:38:17
Speaker
You guys are overreacting.
00:38:19
Speaker
It's misandrist.
00:38:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's misandrist.
00:38:23
Speaker
They're like, oh, you're excluding so many guys with these rules.
00:38:26
Speaker
Yeah, that's the point.
00:38:27
Speaker
That's the point.
00:38:29
Speaker
Exclude away.
00:38:30
Speaker
Because we get blamed for it if we don't.
00:38:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:34
Speaker
No, you know, abuse is a serious thing and ending up in an abusive relationship for a woman can seriously derail your life.
00:38:45
Speaker
And it doesn't necessarily mean physical abuse either.
00:38:50
Speaker
you know, all the other coercive control, now that we can kind of like name those things are just as devastating as physical, physical abuses.
00:39:02
Speaker
I mean, we talk about, there's a term called prospecticide, and that's kind of used for coercive control.
00:39:10
Speaker
And it basically means a person rolls into your life and turns your reality upside down.
00:39:17
Speaker
What you think you believe in,
00:39:20
Speaker
who you are, the values you subscribe to, your relationships, and everything that kind of shapes you is just thrown into complete disorientation.
00:39:32
Speaker
And where you lose your own perspective as a human being that you had before you met this guy, and it's replaced with his perspective of you, of the world.
00:39:46
Speaker
of your other relationship and so on.
00:39:49
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:39:49
Speaker
And that's something I've noticed with men who are abusive.
00:39:52
Speaker
They act like their perspective is the only one that matters and that their perspective is just objective reality, no matter how distorted their perspective or how misogynistic or wrong they are.
00:40:04
Speaker
They are just fully committed to
00:40:07
Speaker
their perspective being seen as the only one that is correct, right?
00:40:12
Speaker
And I wanted to talk about the line, the tagline of the movie, which is, if she stayed, she would die.
00:40:18
Speaker
If she left, she would die.
00:40:20
Speaker
And so...
00:40:23
Speaker
That just gets to me, right?
00:40:24
Speaker
Like, that's just like a punch to the gut because I think so many women know this feeling where you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't, right?
00:40:31
Speaker
So if you stay, you're fucked.
00:40:32
Speaker
If you go, you're fucked.
00:40:34
Speaker
And so the following question is, what would you do?
00:40:38
Speaker
And so I guess our question is, you know, what are you supposed to do if you find yourself in a, you know, what do you do if you find yourself in a situation like this?
00:40:47
Speaker
the whole purpose with kind of raising awareness about coercive control is to give women or future victims the idea that this is a long timeline that starts somewhere that looks innocent, but that may lead, you know, that will lead to somewhere really bad.
00:41:12
Speaker
And so the idea is...
00:41:15
Speaker
to end the relationship before you're completely ensnared and cut off at the knees before you're drowning.
00:41:26
Speaker
And so it's to know that you have much better chance at survival, much better chance of getting away without
00:41:38
Speaker
incredible damage if you get out earlier.
00:41:43
Speaker
And the coercive control law, Jennifer's law, of course, now you can actually go to court and you can say earlier in their relationship,
00:41:54
Speaker
I want my partner charged for surveilling me against my will, for stalking me, for taking my money, for restricting my movement, for withholding resources, or whatever the case may be.
00:42:11
Speaker
Every abuser has different tactics.
00:42:13
Speaker
But so...
00:42:15
Speaker
That's the tool.
00:42:16
Speaker
That's the, you know, powerful tool to get out earlier.
00:42:21
Speaker
Now, if you are at the point where you'll die if you stay and you'll die if you leave, you have to escape.
00:42:29
Speaker
You have to escape.
00:42:30
Speaker
You have to make a safe plan, mobilize your friends, escape and cut off all contact and charge people.
00:42:37
Speaker
charge, charge, like get this guy.
00:42:40
Speaker
You know, only less than one percent of domestic violence offenders ever see any jail time.
00:42:50
Speaker
So that gives you an idea.
00:42:52
Speaker
And a lot of victims never have any involvement with law enforcement whatsoever.
00:42:58
Speaker
So it's a very, very pervasive problem and a lot of victims that go without assistance, without help, and without police intervention.
00:43:08
Speaker
I say charge.
00:43:10
Speaker
Just charge them.
00:43:11
Speaker
Press your case.
00:43:13
Speaker
Do what you can to hold them accountable.
00:43:16
Speaker
In the course of doing the research for the film, was there anything that surprised you about, I guess, abusive relationships or dynamics?
00:43:30
Speaker
What surprised me the most over time is that I had had a notion that women who ended up in these abusive relationships were a certain type, that they had certain weaknesses,
00:43:45
Speaker
or just weren't strong enough or weren't looking out for their own best interests or had perhaps abuse in their background.
00:43:55
Speaker
What I came to find, I think, is that there is no type of woman who gets abused.
00:44:02
Speaker
It runs...
00:44:03
Speaker
A complete spectrum of, you know, from high-powered career women to, you know, housewives to every economic strata, every race culture.
00:44:18
Speaker
There's just no type whatsoever.
00:44:21
Speaker
They run the gamut.
00:44:23
Speaker
That's something I noticed.
00:44:24
Speaker
Like, I'm obsessed with the Dirty John story.
00:44:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:28
Speaker
So I'm obsessed with that.
00:44:30
Speaker
One of the things, like, in the responses is that so many people are so, like, mean to Debra Newell.
00:44:37
Speaker
They'll call her stupid or they'll, you know...
00:44:40
Speaker
A lot of the responses to her is very misogynistic, actually.
00:44:43
Speaker
And say, like, even in the actual podcast, one of the lines was like, I think this speaks to the compartmentalization of intelligence, because how would someone so successful be so stupid, basically, right?
00:44:55
Speaker
And so, and I think...
00:44:58
Speaker
That's an excellent point because people think like, oh, if she's a high powered business woman and so on, you know, we like to think that that makes us less vulnerable to abuse, but that's not necessarily the case, right?
00:45:09
Speaker
There's no one type of woman who gets abused.
00:45:12
Speaker
No, no, there isn't.
00:45:14
Speaker
And that's, that's really, really important to remember.
00:45:18
Speaker
You know, my, our executive producer, Laura Richards works closely with Deborah and Tara Newell.
00:45:24
Speaker
Oh, right.
00:45:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:25
Speaker
You might want to have her on the show too.
00:45:27
Speaker
She has her own podcast, Real Crime Profile.
00:45:33
Speaker
But she talks about this often.
00:45:35
Speaker
And she says, you know, it's called Dirty John, not Poor Decision Making Deborah.
00:45:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:45
Speaker
And that gets to it.
00:45:47
Speaker
It's not just because you're a romantic or you think the best of people or you give people the benefit of the doubt or whatever doesn't mean that you deserve to end up tormented by a psychopath.
00:46:05
Speaker
Exactly.
00:46:06
Speaker
Because John also, he specifically targeted
00:46:09
Speaker
nurses and like career women, he, he targeted professional women.
00:46:12
Speaker
And I think if anything, like, because professional women are told like, Oh, you know, if you're no man's going to want you, if you're more successful than him.
00:46:20
Speaker
Right.
00:46:20
Speaker
So I think a lot of professional women end up internalizing this narrative that like they're less desirable or that fewer guys that are going to be into them.
00:46:29
Speaker
And that,
00:46:30
Speaker
And this makes us even more vulnerable when a guy comes along who does treat us well or who actually likes those things.
00:46:37
Speaker
And you think, oh my gosh, I've hit the jackpot.
00:46:40
Speaker
And you're much less likely to walk away from these types of relationships because you think, oh, if I dump this guy, then I might not find another guy like him who accepts me.
00:46:51
Speaker
Well, that too, and like women who are very good at being effective or taking responsibility or in caretaking positions, they tend to have that carry over into their romantic life.
00:47:02
Speaker
So sometimes I think women who are very, very motivated, sometimes they take a lot of responsibility that's not theirs.
00:47:09
Speaker
So they might end up blaming themselves for the man's behavior because they think, well, what could I have done better in this situation?
00:47:15
Speaker
Because they're always thinking about how to move themselves forward, not realizing that sometimes things are not your fault.
00:47:20
Speaker
And furthermore, not your responsibility and that you deserve, especially in your romantic life, to just be treated well, just being a person.
00:47:27
Speaker
Exactly.
00:47:29
Speaker
Exactly.
00:47:30
Speaker
I think that's exactly what happened with Debra, actually.
00:47:33
Speaker
And look, if you take responsibility for something that happened, then you can also fix it.
00:47:39
Speaker
So it's like it's not wanting to be a victim that motivates that also.
00:47:44
Speaker
I found that with myself too.
00:47:46
Speaker
Like not, not to that extreme, but where you just don't want to lose sometimes.
00:47:51
Speaker
So that's, that's just, I think a very human emotion, especially for a person who is the type to take responsibility for themselves is the type to think that I'm the kind of person that can impact my environment.
00:48:03
Speaker
You like to believe that you can change situations for the better.
00:48:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:08
Speaker
Exactly.
00:48:08
Speaker
And also, I think what people don't understand about the abusers and Dirty John specifically is that abusers groom.
Abuser's Tactics and Accountability
00:48:17
Speaker
They groom and they compliance test.
00:48:21
Speaker
So they don't all of a sudden violate your boundaries.
00:48:25
Speaker
They do things very incrementally, very one step at a time.
00:48:31
Speaker
They'll make an overly critical comment or, you know, kind of invade your space in a kind of overwhelming way or they're too fast or too intense or things in order to find out what you'll accept.
00:48:50
Speaker
And if you push back, they know you won't go for that and they may change tactics and do something else.
00:48:59
Speaker
So it's a moving target you got and someone who's very calculated in terms of how they come at you.
00:49:08
Speaker
Women like that are probably more attractive victims too.
00:49:12
Speaker
for people who get off on coercive control or narcissistic because a woman who doesn't challenge you maybe doesn't feel as interesting as a sparring partner for your abuse as a person who is more likely to try to set boundaries.
00:49:26
Speaker
But sometimes, again, we talk about the failures of communication when it comes to working with abusive men.
00:49:33
Speaker
There's so much out there when it comes to encouraging women to do so much emotional labor in their relationships and to endlessly communicate
00:49:41
Speaker
But I think it is so important, at least how we stress in FDS to understand, like, no one to hold them and no one to fold them.
00:49:47
Speaker
Like, you have to walk away from this crap.
00:49:49
Speaker
It is not your responsibility to keep having to reassert your boundaries and communicating what should be basic respect to grown men.
00:49:57
Speaker
Yeah, coercive men definitely do.
00:49:59
Speaker
And I've noticed this in my personal life, like, yeah.
00:50:02
Speaker
really abusive men do seem specifically drawn to high-powered businesswoman types because they like the challenge of taking down like big game, so to speak.
00:50:11
Speaker
They'll even say like big game, you know, a moose as opposed to a deer or something like that, you know?
00:50:15
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely true that it's a challenge and a game.
00:50:24
Speaker
It has that aspect to it, which is just chilling to think about.
00:50:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:31
Speaker
And the phrase you said earlier, compliance testing.
00:50:35
Speaker
Oh boy, I'm going to start using that phrase so much more on FDS because the manosphere, they call it shit testing.
00:50:41
Speaker
That and prospecticide.
00:50:42
Speaker
That's a new one on me too.
00:50:43
Speaker
Perspecticide.
00:50:45
Speaker
Yeah, prospecticide and compliance testing.
00:50:49
Speaker
Yeah, because abusive men will say like, oh, I was shit testing her, I was doing this and that.
00:50:54
Speaker
Like, they are specifically strategizing on how to be abusive.
00:50:57
Speaker
Which tells you something.
00:50:58
Speaker
It tells you that they, not only do they know what they're doing, but as a group, know what they're doing.
00:51:06
Speaker
And they strategize together.
00:51:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:51:08
Speaker
And so if that's the case, that should tip us off, us being women or on the other side of that, that, you know, we're targets.
00:51:20
Speaker
They're doing it, you know, it's a purposeful thing.
00:51:23
Speaker
It's not, you know, it's not just like this one bad guy or bad behavior.
00:51:27
Speaker
It's much more structured than that.
00:51:30
Speaker
It's interesting you make that point, Elle, because Lundy Bancroft and why does he do that?
00:51:38
Speaker
He does an excellent job of breaking down the different kinds of abusers and also why men abuse.
00:51:45
Speaker
But he makes it very, very clear that the reason why abusive men are abusive is because it gets them what they want.
00:51:53
Speaker
And that is the crux of...
00:51:57
Speaker
you know, their attitude is that they know it will get them what they want.
00:52:00
Speaker
And it's also why they are not abusive towards everyone in their life.
00:52:04
Speaker
They don't treat their boss badly because they know that the outcome will be unfavourable as well.
00:52:10
Speaker
So in a way, it's really, really, it's extremely dark, the mentality of the abusive man, because it's so, so calculated in a way that I think few women, you know, can comprehend.
00:52:23
Speaker
And it's also why,
00:52:25
Speaker
Just circling back to what Rose said about just communicate is so, so dangerous because these men know exactly what they're doing.
00:52:32
Speaker
They know that what they're doing is abusive.
00:52:37
Speaker
But for them, the abuse is, you know, like it helps them to get what they want.
00:52:44
Speaker
I'm nodding my head furiously.
00:52:49
Speaker
And the women is just essentially collateral damage to what they want, essentially.
00:52:53
Speaker
That's how they see it.
00:52:54
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:52:56
Speaker
But the other side of that coin is they do it because they can.
00:53:00
Speaker
And we're not stopping them.
00:53:01
Speaker
And they enjoy it.
00:53:03
Speaker
I am of the belief, and this is much debated in the domestic violence field, but the only thing that stops an abuser is accountability and consequence.
00:53:13
Speaker
I don't believe in therapy.
00:53:16
Speaker
I don't believe in family solution.
00:53:18
Speaker
I least of all believe in restorative justice.
00:53:21
Speaker
100%, yeah.
00:53:23
Speaker
These guys deserve zero compassion, zero chances.
00:53:27
Speaker
Because some of the things we find online is people will say, like, oh, it was just a one-time thing.
00:53:31
Speaker
Like, they'll try to have you believe, like, it's just an isolated incident.
00:53:34
Speaker
Not all guys are like that or whatever.
00:53:36
Speaker
Or that he's secretly a good guy at heart.
00:53:39
Speaker
Well, they have this idea that everything can be fixed through community building or therapy or medication.
00:53:46
Speaker
And perhaps in some distant future, that might be the case.
00:53:50
Speaker
But right now, the goal is to get the abusers off the street.
00:53:54
Speaker
And when you say things like that, you start getting accused of being a quote unquote carceral feminist or that you think the criminal justice system can solve everything.
00:54:01
Speaker
But the problem is like we don't have a better alternative right now and we need to stop the bleeding right now.
00:54:06
Speaker
So I don't know any person who considers themselves a feminist who thinks like the only solution is prison.
00:54:11
Speaker
But I feel like it's a little bit naive to just, you know, pontificate in some far off distant future where we have more peaceable solutions to guys like this and just not acknowledge that some people are just born with a few screws loose.
00:54:25
Speaker
And if we don't have the medication to treat them properly,
00:54:28
Speaker
You know, right now we just have to figure out how to get them out of the population so they stop abusing other people and then continuing these cycles of violence.
00:54:36
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:54:37
Speaker
And, you know, when you look at domestic violence, you will quickly see that it doesn't stay at home.
00:54:45
Speaker
There are so many other branches of crime that is connected to domestic violence and that begin with domestic violence.
00:54:56
Speaker
mass shootings or terrorism or other, you know, sort of like mass crimes, in a large percentage of those cases, there's domestic violence that's kind of at the root of it.
00:55:09
Speaker
I read that about rape as well, that guys a lot of times who rape are also involved in a lot of other petty type street crimes.
00:55:16
Speaker
So it does seem like misogyny is a gate-rate drug. 100%.
00:55:24
Speaker
Yeah, and I also think that, you know, it just, like, it's human nature.
00:55:31
Speaker
If we don't see consequences, and we can do things with impunity, we aren't going to fix ourselves.
00:55:39
Speaker
So, like, or fix the problem.
00:55:42
Speaker
We, you know, they must see consequences for their behavior or they're just going to continue doing what they do to get what they want, like you said.
00:55:53
Speaker
Exactly.
00:55:54
Speaker
And they deserve to face consequences.
00:55:55
Speaker
Guess what?
00:55:56
Speaker
The victims of abusers face consequences every day for the rest of their life after they leave their abuser.
00:56:01
Speaker
They're suffering the consequences of that relationship.
00:56:04
Speaker
And so to try to go for some kind of restorative justice for a perpetrator like that is unjust to the victim.
00:56:12
Speaker
Well, it's also a gift to the abuser, you know, because it gives re-entry and gives access to... To more people to abuse, yeah.
00:56:21
Speaker
More people to abuse, but also to their victim.
00:56:23
Speaker
And it requires the victim to, you know, it burdens the victim with trying to, you know, to fix what is termed a relationship problem when there's not a relationship problem.
00:56:36
Speaker
There's a victim and a perpetrator.
00:56:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:40
Speaker
Yeah, I'm just sitting here like staring into the abyss like, holy shit, like this conversation has changed my life.
00:56:47
Speaker
Anyways.
00:56:50
Speaker
But, yeah.
00:56:55
Speaker
No, I just said I'm super, super encouraged by the changes that are taking place.
00:57:01
Speaker
Like, I mean, you speaking or like your podcast is just like a light in the darkness.
00:57:11
Speaker
And, and I also think, you know, feminists all over are, you know, starting to understand and strategize in a serious way.
00:57:21
Speaker
Courts of control laws are on the books in Scotland, Wales and the UK, and California and Hawaii, I think changes on the way for sure.
00:57:30
Speaker
Definitely.
00:57:31
Speaker
I'm going to look into this.
00:57:32
Speaker
This needs to get on the books in Canada.
00:57:33
Speaker
I don't think it is, but it needs to be a thing because we need a version of something like Jennifer's Law here, too.
00:57:42
Speaker
I don't know how it is in the States, but in Canada, if a man is being abusive or, like, you know, in a domestic violence case, they don't need the...
00:57:51
Speaker
you know, they don't need the victim to press charges.
00:57:55
Speaker
And so it's kind of a blessing and a curse because, you know, in the States, my understanding is like they need the victim to press charges and that puts them in danger because the abuser will come after them.
00:58:08
Speaker
Like, it's your fault that I'm having this.
00:58:10
Speaker
these legal problems, right?
00:58:12
Speaker
And so, and often, like, they'll, the reason why they kill the victim is so that they can't testify.
00:58:18
Speaker
And so, in Canada, they kind of bypassed that and said, you know, it doesn't matter if the victim presses charges or not, if the man is committing domestic violence, he's going to get charged.
00:58:27
Speaker
However, the problem with this is that it means you're also completely at the mercy of the RCMP.
00:58:32
Speaker
And as we all know, police are in on the game, right?
00:58:35
Speaker
And so they are not so incentivized to
00:58:40
Speaker
charge abusers unless it gets really, really bad and would be a PR nightmare for them to not charge them.
00:58:45
Speaker
It depends in the states.
00:58:46
Speaker
It's really state by state, county by county, because I know there are certain counties that have mandatory arrest, and that's controversial as well for different reasons.
00:58:55
Speaker
But meaning if a police show up for a domestic violence call, they're
00:58:59
Speaker
they have to arrest someone because they were, because there was a long history of them showing up to these domestic violence situations and basically ignoring it.
00:59:08
Speaker
And then these women getting murdered.
00:59:10
Speaker
So, but what I'm seeing with that is worse.
00:59:13
Speaker
Now abusers will then call the police and then it's the victim who gets arrested in a lot of these cases.
00:59:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:19
Speaker
So that, yeah, that's the downside of the mandatory arrest stuff.
00:59:22
Speaker
So there's, there, it just, the United States is a vast country.
00:59:28
Speaker
It's a vast country and most of it's trash.
00:59:31
Speaker
I feel like I explained this on the podcast.
00:59:34
Speaker
Let me defend my country for once.
00:59:37
Speaker
No, but it's just, it's just, it's, it's every place has its own ethos, its own set of governing systems.
00:59:44
Speaker
Yeah, it's weird and bad.
00:59:45
Speaker
Okay.
00:59:46
Speaker
Your, your country is bad and you should feel bad.
00:59:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's not perfect.
00:59:55
Speaker
So I like to think of it, we're the American experiment for a reason.
01:00:01
Speaker
It's because we're always experimenting with crazy ass stuff.
01:00:05
Speaker
Yeah, other countries get to look at you and go like, ugh, that's what not to do.
01:00:09
Speaker
Basically.
01:00:10
Speaker
And for that, everyone's welcome.
01:00:12
Speaker
You're welcome for us being the example of what not to do.
01:00:17
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
01:00:18
Speaker
Okay.
01:00:19
Speaker
But the mandatory arrest thing is kind of a weird thing to think about because it actually originated in Connecticut as well, just down the road from where Jennifer lived.
01:00:33
Speaker
Tracy Thurman.
01:00:35
Speaker
was the woman who was getting the crap beaten out of her right in front of police and they didn't do anything and she was like paralyzed and brain damaged from this beating that she took from her husband.
01:00:47
Speaker
And she sued the police department and won and it went all the way to the Supreme Court and so that's where mandatory arrest comes from.
01:00:57
Speaker
But like you said, it's resulted...
01:01:00
Speaker
in dual arrests, so they arrest the victim along with the abuser, or sometimes the victim instead of the abuser.
01:01:08
Speaker
But I think what's really important to look at there is that unless you train police to look at women and men that this is a male pattern crime,
01:01:21
Speaker
and that it's a gendered crime that very, very, very rarely is reversed, then that's the kind of the missing insight there, is that if you're a police and you go out to a domestic violence call,
01:01:39
Speaker
99% of the time it's going to be a woman victim and a male perpetrator.
01:01:43
Speaker
So why are we... Why this insistence on seeing it as gender neutral?
01:01:49
Speaker
Yeah.
01:01:50
Speaker
It's a big disservice to victims.
01:01:53
Speaker
Absolutely.
01:01:54
Speaker
And the point you made about police needing to be trained to recognize that this is a male problem, it needs to happen, but at the same time, I feel like
01:02:04
Speaker
because most police officers are male, and men don't like to see themselves as the bad guy.
Gendered Aspects of Abuse
01:02:10
Speaker
So I find one of the things I've noticed online is guys becoming extremely defensive about talking about things as a male, you know, things like male violence.
01:02:21
Speaker
They say that the word male violence is sexist against men, right?
01:02:26
Speaker
Yeah, okay.
01:02:28
Speaker
Yeah, I know, there's a lot to unpack there.
01:02:30
Speaker
Yeah.
01:02:31
Speaker
So this is sort of a side note, but related.
01:02:34
Speaker
I was listening to a podcast where they were talking about this country, and I don't want to say the country because I can't remember the exact name and I don't want to say it wrong.
01:02:41
Speaker
But basically, for domestic violence crimes, it's handled by the elder women of the community that essentially, rather than getting the police involved, like all your aunties and grandmas roll up with shoes and stuff.
01:02:55
Speaker
It's handled by.
01:02:56
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with that.
01:03:14
Speaker
when it's so often gendered and so often women are the victim.
01:03:17
Speaker
So that's a country that at least acknowledged that, okay, women are disproportionately the victims of this type of crime.
01:03:24
Speaker
Let's have a, you know, a governing force of women to come in and handle these specific types of incidents.
01:03:31
Speaker
So there's, there's other ways to do this.
01:03:33
Speaker
We just don't do that in our country.
01:03:34
Speaker
And the cops are asked to do a lot that they are just not qualified or equipped to do.
01:03:39
Speaker
Or nor do they have the desire.
01:03:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's absolutely true.
01:03:43
Speaker
And that's a huge part of the problem.
01:03:46
Speaker
But I mean, you know, like in places like in Spain, they have a specialized court for violence against women and domestic violence, where the court system only handle violence against women and domestic violence.
01:04:04
Speaker
So,
01:04:05
Speaker
everyone from judges to lawyers to advocates, et cetera, are educated in the dynamics of domestic violence.
01:04:16
Speaker
And so that's where you go if you're a victim of domestic violence.
01:04:21
Speaker
And it is for, you know, obviously it's acknowledged that, you know, men are the abusers and women are the victims.
01:04:28
Speaker
And so it's a, you know, it's a women's court that's specialized in that.
01:04:34
Speaker
So that's a solution.
01:04:35
Speaker
That's a model.
01:04:37
Speaker
What are some other solutions?
01:04:38
Speaker
Let's brainstorm while we're on the topic, other than throwing them in jail, which is my favorite solution.
01:04:43
Speaker
Yeah, my too.
01:04:46
Speaker
My other favorite solution is just putting all the rapists and all the murderers on an island and they can just duke it out, kill and rape each other and leave the women alone, you know?
01:04:52
Speaker
But what are some realistic solutions?
01:04:58
Speaker
I feel like Rapist Island is going to be politically difficult.
01:05:00
Speaker
Okay.
01:05:05
Speaker
Yeah.
01:05:06
Speaker
Well, unless they can make it into a compelling reality TV show, then I feel like they'll... Yeah, make it like Jurassic Park or something.
01:05:15
Speaker
Well, then you can justify anything.
01:05:17
Speaker
Have you seen Naked and Afraid in these other TV shows where they just literally drop naked people off in the middle of the jungle?
01:05:23
Speaker
I feel like if you can make a compelling TV, we might be able to get away with Rapist Island, but...
01:05:28
Speaker
Is it legal proceeding?
01:05:29
Speaker
Maybe not.
01:05:31
Speaker
Rapist Island.
01:05:34
Speaker
Yeah.
01:05:34
Speaker
And also, are the rapists going to be compelling on television?
01:05:38
Speaker
I don't know.
01:05:38
Speaker
I feel like a reality TV show, Rapist Island.
01:05:42
Speaker
I don't know why.
01:05:44
Speaker
I want to see a TV show called Rapist Island.
01:05:48
Speaker
Where guys duke it out.
01:05:50
Speaker
Okay.
01:05:53
Speaker
Oh my gosh.
01:05:54
Speaker
Sorry, I'm just imagining like a survivor style competition where they do like games and stuff.
01:06:00
Speaker
Sorry, this is a serious topic.
01:06:02
Speaker
I shouldn't be laughing.
01:06:03
Speaker
But anyways.
01:06:06
Speaker
Okay.
01:06:08
Speaker
Anyways, but I wanted to ask, what is the release date for Jennifer 42?
01:06:12
Speaker
Because it hasn't been released yet, right?
01:06:14
Speaker
No, we're still in production.
01:06:16
Speaker
In fact, you know, we're, we are looking for a co-production partnership for the animation production of it right now.
01:06:26
Speaker
So I'm meeting, having all kinds of meetings with animation studios to put it into animation production.
01:06:32
Speaker
So that's where we, that's where we are at.
01:06:36
Speaker
We got knocked sideways by the pandemic.
01:06:39
Speaker
We have a lot of things kind of lined up that, uh,
01:06:43
Speaker
that just was cancelled on us.
01:06:46
Speaker
So we're, you know, we're struggling to regain the momentum we lost and it's starting to look better again, but we're still, that's where we are.
01:06:58
Speaker
And how does, like, how are you getting funding for this?
01:07:01
Speaker
Like, is it just by donation or, you know, cause animating is expensive, right?
01:07:05
Speaker
So.
01:07:06
Speaker
Yeah, it is expensive.
01:07:07
Speaker
So we've, we've survived on grants in the U S you know, documentaries are funded a lot by foundations and grants.
01:07:16
Speaker
So we, for the documentary portion, we survived on grants and some investments and a Kickstarter campaign, but now for the animation,
01:07:25
Speaker
we're looking to get for either a Canadian-European co-production deal or a co-production deal with an animation studio.
01:07:34
Speaker
So that would be then paid for by a streaming deal or something.
01:07:41
Speaker
Right.
01:07:42
Speaker
Okay.
01:07:43
Speaker
I wanted to talk about...
01:07:44
Speaker
women-centric media a little bit and how, like, would you say that it's been challenging to get funding or to get people interested in this story or?
01:07:53
Speaker
Yeah, I think so.
01:07:55
Speaker
I mean, we went into it feeling that we were very non-mainstream.
01:08:02
Speaker
obviously, partly because it's a hybrid film as an animated documentary, but partly because it's such a difficult subject matter that, you know, people recoil from.
01:08:14
Speaker
But we also kind of went into saying we want to have, we want to speak to, you know, kind of a grassroots, you
01:08:25
Speaker
audience and so we've we've we we're really active on social media we're active in the domestic violence community support groups and victims groups survivor groups and so we're getting a lot of you know interest and support from from them but yes absolutely this isn't something that uh sort of mainstream movie industry is going to come running to buy
01:08:51
Speaker
Yeah.
01:08:51
Speaker
And so I wanted to take this opportunity, if there's anything that you wanted to plug or, you know, if our audience is listening to this and they want to help get this in production or get this through production, you know, what can we do about that?
01:09:04
Speaker
Well, absolutely go to jennifer42movie.com.
01:09:09
Speaker
That's...
01:09:10
Speaker
where we have all of our information and you can donate there.
01:09:14
Speaker
And there are different levels of donations that can get you various perks and things.
01:09:20
Speaker
There's also Believe Women merch on there, if you're interested in that.
01:09:29
Speaker
And then, you know, but if there are any women-centric producers listening to this, contact me.
01:09:40
Speaker
Awesome.
01:09:41
Speaker
Yeah.
01:09:42
Speaker
Oh, sorry.
01:09:44
Speaker
Go ahead, Ro.
01:09:46
Speaker
I just thought of a tagline for Rapist Island.
01:09:48
Speaker
Rapist Island.
01:09:49
Speaker
They really are raping everybody out here.
01:09:55
Speaker
That's good.
01:09:57
Speaker
Yeah, sorry.
01:09:58
Speaker
I had to get that one in.
01:10:00
Speaker
I really are raping everybody out here.
01:10:02
Speaker
Okay.
01:10:04
Speaker
But no, back to, you know, talking about, you know, plugging the movie and production and stuff.
01:10:10
Speaker
And so I do actually seriously want to ask our audience to keep, bear in mind that, you know, us as women, as feminists, we're up against this, like, massive Goliath, you know, this, uh,
01:10:24
Speaker
you know, most media is made by and for men, right?
01:10:28
Speaker
And it kind of pisses me off that there's always like hundreds of millions of dollars to throw at the latest fucking Adam Sadler, Seth Rogen movie to talk about their dumbass bro comedy.
01:10:37
Speaker
But when women want to get our stories out there, all of a sudden we hit this wall of funding, right?
01:10:41
Speaker
And so my call to action to our own audience is...
01:10:45
Speaker
Basically, we have to vote with our dollars, spend money on things that benefit women.
01:10:49
Speaker
If you're a woman listening to this, you know, pull out your wallet, donate to Jennifer 42.
01:10:53
Speaker
And while you're at it, sign up for our Patreon.
01:10:57
Speaker
Yes, we made some changes actually to our Patreon recently because we are no longer doing a raffle.
01:11:03
Speaker
But on our Patreon, we still have the available option to submit your story for a Roast of Scro, Anasis or a Queen Shit.
01:11:11
Speaker
And we'll read it on air and help celebrate your life or roast all the low value men in your life.
01:11:17
Speaker
That's patreon.com forward slash the female dating strategy.
01:11:20
Speaker
I love your term low value men.
01:11:22
Speaker
I think that's so apt.
01:11:26
Speaker
It's so funny how men get so offended by it too.
01:11:29
Speaker
They're like, I'm not low value.
01:11:30
Speaker
I'm like medium value or something.
01:11:32
Speaker
It's like, no, bro, you're low value.
01:11:33
Speaker
Just accept it.
01:11:34
Speaker
Take your L and go.
01:11:36
Speaker
And there's also negative value in men as well.
01:11:38
Speaker
There's like a spectrum.
01:11:39
Speaker
It goes from high value to low value to negative value.
01:11:43
Speaker
Yeah.
01:11:43
Speaker
Oh, and so abusers definitely end up negative value.
01:11:47
Speaker
They're definitely negative value, like extreme end of the spectrum, minus five.
01:11:51
Speaker
Yeah.
01:11:52
Speaker
Yeah.
01:11:53
Speaker
that goes from five to minus five.
01:11:55
Speaker
We got criticized a while back because they say, oh, it's like dehumanizing to categorize men into two categories or three categories.
01:12:06
Speaker
Someone said like, oh, well, at least the Manosphere uses a one to 10 scale to rate women's appearances.
01:12:11
Speaker
That makes them better.
01:12:13
Speaker
And so what I did is I had a post that was like, okay, we implement our new 10 point scale.
01:12:19
Speaker
The scale is negative five to positive five because...
01:12:23
Speaker
It can't be zero to ten because that would imply that abuse over shitty men, like if he's a one or a two.
01:12:28
Speaker
Have some value.
01:12:29
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:30
Speaker
They have zero.
01:12:30
Speaker
That would imply that they have some value when they don't.
01:12:33
Speaker
We need to be very clear that with men, like half of them have the opposite of a positive value.
01:12:39
Speaker
Like they literally are negative value and that they take away from your life, not...
01:12:43
Speaker
Adding to it.
01:12:44
Speaker
Don't shorten your lifespan.
01:12:45
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:46
Speaker
Whereas in contrast, even the least attractive woman, a one or two, still has value.
01:12:51
Speaker
Whereas a guy on the lower end of the scale, nah, negative value there.
01:12:55
Speaker
He's not worth it.
01:12:56
Speaker
Negative value male island.
01:12:58
Speaker
Negative value male island.
01:13:02
Speaker
It doesn't have the same thing as rapist island.
01:13:06
Speaker
Well, I do think, you know, it's not apples and apples, women and men, I just want to say, you know, like... Yeah, it's apples and oranges.
01:13:14
Speaker
Yeah, and they have, you know, they may have like a, you know, we're finicky about them issue, but we have a murder issue, and that's a whole different thing, so...
01:13:28
Speaker
Yeah, guys are worried that they'll spend money on a date and she won't call him back.
01:13:32
Speaker
Women are worried about getting killed.
01:13:34
Speaker
So, you know, a good man would recognize that difference, the fact that we have different fears and would be compassionate about that.
01:13:43
Speaker
You know, I have a, back to the female filmmakers thing.
01:13:48
Speaker
I have a quote from Abigail Disney.
01:13:49
Speaker
She says, Hollywood needs to think about reparations because its role on positing masculine force, aggression
01:13:57
Speaker
and violence as an answer to every question.
01:14:00
Speaker
And I think that's right.
01:14:01
Speaker
Definitely.
01:14:02
Speaker
But yeah, I think that's pretty much it.
01:14:05
Speaker
Rowe, Savannah, was there anything that you wanted to add?
01:14:07
Speaker
Yeah, we're good.
01:14:09
Speaker
Awesome talk.
01:14:10
Speaker
Thank you.
01:14:11
Speaker
Thank you so much, Elle, for coming on the podcast.
01:14:13
Speaker
It's been a pleasure.
01:14:14
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me.
01:14:16
Speaker
And that's our show.
01:14:17
Speaker
Please follow our Twitter at fem.strat, as well as visit our Patreon at patreon.com forward slash the female dating strategy, as well as our website at the female dating strategy.com.
01:14:27
Speaker
Thank you for listening, Queens.
01:14:29
Speaker
And for all you want to be rapist Island contestants, die mad.
01:14:32
Speaker
Preferably on rapist Island.