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The Power of Shifting Perspective
131 Plays11 months ago
Just in time for the New Year- Embark on a transformative journey in this episode as Julie sits down with Dr. Jonathan Dunlap to explore the art of shifting perspectives. Discover the therapeutic power of reframing thoughts, overcoming challenges, and how seeing yourself is the key to unlocking change. Join us for an insightful conversation that promises valuable insights and practical strategies to cultivate a positive mindset.
About today's guest:
Dr. Dunlap began his career in 2005 working at a local non-profit organization as an adult case manager after graduating with his bachelor's degree from Jackson State University. He continued to get his masters degree from Liberty University and received his license in professional counseling in 2009. He received his Doctorate in Professional Counseling in 2017 from Mississippi College. He has a wide range of counseling experience including but not limited to alcohol and drug, geriatrics, children and adolescents, and currently works with adults in his private practice. He has a unique approach to counseling where he blends existential therapy with a model he created called Shifting Perspectives.
Get in touch with Dr. Dunlap:
www.onacounseling.com
[email protected] - email
601-613-2079 - call or text
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Transcript
Introduction to Season Two and Themes
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome back to season two of Outside of Session. I'm your host, licensed clinical social worker, and therapist BFF, Julie Hilton. This season, I'm interviewing some incredible guests who also happen to be experts in their fields. Mental health, motherhood, spirituality, and so much more, I can't wait for their stories to be told. These are all the conversations I'm having outside of session.
00:00:46
Speaker
Hey everyone, thanks so much for tuning in to today's episode. And I happen to think that you're really going to enjoy this one. I sat down with Dr. Jonathan Dunlap for a conversation on how shifting your perspective is transformative in therapy. And I'm not going to give much away about it here. You're just going to have to listen to the episode to get all the goods on what that means.
00:01:09
Speaker
A little bit more about Jonathan.
Dr. Dunlap's Professional Journey
00:01:11
Speaker
He began his career in 2005 working at a local nonprofit organization as an adult case manager after graduating with his bachelor's degree from Jackson State University. He continued to get his master's degree from Liberty University and then received his license in professional counseling in 2009. And then he received his doctorate in professional counseling in 2017 from Mississippi College.
00:01:36
Speaker
He has a wide range of experience in counseling, including, but not limited to alcohol and drug, geriatrics, children, and adolescents. And currently he works with adults at his private practice. He has a unique approach to counseling where he blends existential therapy with a model he created called shifting perspectives. And we're going to get to learn all about it here today in this episode. So everyone help me welcome Dr. Jonathan Dunlap.
00:02:06
Speaker
Hey, Dr. Dunlap. Hey, Julie. I'm so excited about you being here today. Thank you so much. Yeah, I appreciate you for having me. I've been really looking forward to this recording, so I'm so glad to be here.
00:02:19
Speaker
Yeah, I was just saying before I hit record that I feel like today is going to be a little bit of a different episode because rather than talking about a specific issue that as a therapist you work with in practice, we're talking a little bit more about your style and what you've developed. So I'm just, I'm so curious to be honest, and I can't wait to hear about it. Well, I'm excited to talk
Inspiration and Unique Counseling Model
00:02:39
Speaker
about it. You know, I think as therapists, we don't often get the chance to talk about ourselves. So there's a little bit of nervousness about
00:02:47
Speaker
Oh gosh, this whole session is about talking about me. But at the same time, I think I'm a little bit excited about it too. So I'm ready. Yeah, I love it. So before we dive into like what you're doing in practice now, I'm curious, cause we had a little bit of a conversation a few weeks ago when we first started talking about recording this and you were sharing about how as a new therapist,
00:03:12
Speaker
Just some of the experiences that you had that I'm hoping that you can share with us, like what your path was as a clinician to land you where you are today that has kind of guided you before we start talking about where you are. Like what was that journey like for you? Yeah. So, you know, I got into this field because it's an interesting story because I was in, I was in high school and I was in the library one day and I was taking a nap before class started because, you know, the library is where you're supposed to take naps, right?
00:03:40
Speaker
And so this guy that I didn't really associate with, I mean, we weren't even on hello terms. It was just a fellow peer that just passed me in crossing just throughout campus. But he came in and he woke me up and he said, hey, I got a question for you. And I thought he was joking because we don't even talk. So I started laying my head back down. He said, no, no, I'm serious. I'm serious. And so I said, OK, what's going on? And he had a whole situation about his girlfriend and he wanted
00:04:09
Speaker
some advice. And so I thought it was a little bit weird, but I went on and gave him some advice. But the thing that really hooked me in was two weeks later he came back and he pushed me, touched me on the shoulder and he said, hey, you know what you told me? I really appreciate that. That really helped. And I thought, oh my gosh, have I found my calling?
00:04:32
Speaker
Isn't it crazy how a random moment that we weren't even expecting can change the trajectory of our entire future? That's crazy. I know. Yeah. And it stands out to me, and I've told that story to several people, but that's the initial moment that got me thinking, OK, what's the path that puts me on the path to be able to do this more and more? So that's how I got started.
00:04:59
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. So so what was it like for you after that? Like, how did you decide, okay, like, I like helping people, I like the aspect of like, learning about people's lives, and guiding them? What was it like as even like a new therapist?
00:05:15
Speaker
Right. Yeah. So after going through, um, all the psychology classes, I realized I really am interested in the mind and how are like this, the meanings that we place on things in life, because the meanings we place on behaviors and thoughts and words, because everything means something to us. And so that was deeply fascinating for me. And so as a new therapist, I felt like my, my goal was to,
00:05:43
Speaker
help. I needed to help people get to get over these meanings and cross over into doing life better. Uh, but I realized I kept coming up against the stumbling block because help is also relative. Like what I would do in that situation is not what they would do. So early on, I started facing this block of, wait a minute, I'm trying to help them in the way that I would live life. If I were in their shoes and I don't
00:06:11
Speaker
think this is the best approach, or at least it's not doing for me what I was hoping that the field would do for me. So I definitely ran up against that stumbling block right there in the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:24
Speaker
I think that a lot of times I have clients that will say, just tell me what to do. I have one client that comes to mind right now. She's constantly like, Julie, just tell me what to do. I'm like, I don't know what you should do because I'm not you. I'm not living your life. The advice that I would give you the way that I would handle that situation would be completely different because
00:06:46
Speaker
Um, my mom is different than yours. My family unit is different from yours. And so I can only talk to you from my perspective. And as much as I'm learning about you, I still don't know what it's like to be in your shoes. So my job is not to give you advice. Right. My job is to help you sort through and come to like, you have to trust yourself that actually you do know what's best for you. You just need a little nudge in getting there. Right. Right.
Research and Self-Awareness
00:07:09
Speaker
Yeah. So when I, when I started working on my doctorate, my shift, I mean, my thought process really
00:07:15
Speaker
shifted into self-awareness. And so my research was around self-awareness and the final product, the project that I did at the end was around self-awareness. And so as a result of that, I started looking at myself a lot more and I started noticing how I deal with pain. I started noticing the patterns that exist when I'm feeling emotions, when I'm feeling jealous, when I'm confused, when I'm excited,
00:07:42
Speaker
And what does my body do when these things show up? And I kind of noticed that the difference between the smile and the frown, the thing that's between those two is simply ideas. I thought, wait a minute, is that the thing that moves the frown to a smile? I got it. I was like, I'm having to pause and think about what you said. So the space between a smile and a frown is an idea. It's an idea, yes.
00:08:12
Speaker
because how many times in your session have, has a client said to you, oh my God, that makes so much sense. And they walk away, nothing about their life has actually changed because they haven't, they literally haven't done anything. They're still sitting with you, but they feel better. They feel empowered. They feel ready there. So it's, I realized, wait a minute. They adopted a new idea. And once they had the idea,
00:08:41
Speaker
they're, they're ready to tackle the world or at least another week before they meet with you again, you know? So I'm curious what, what it was like to research self-awareness. Like I'm just thinking about what that would be like because I'm sure this is like really in-depth research, right? Yeah. Like you were probably in the weeds and all the research on this. What was that like? So the, the, the way that I approached it,
00:09:07
Speaker
I have this thought process where I like to understand what a thing is and how it works. And so I looked at it more from this lens of, okay, I'm going to get all this information about self-awareness to try to understand, well, what is that? What is self-awareness? You know, and how does that manifest in people's lives? How does it manifest in my life? And how do I use that in therapy to help people to,
00:09:36
Speaker
see themselves because my approach was not so much about like gathering information but more looking at all of it together to kind of come to this conclusion about what it is.
00:09:50
Speaker
Yeah. Does that make sense? It does make sense. And I'm curious to hear more about what that conclusion was. Like after you spent all of this time gathering, reading, researching, when you're looking at putting it all together, like what are some of those like themes that you saw or realizations that you had? Like once you put it all together, what do you come up with? Yeah. So I noticed that I start with like marketing. Marketing is this trillion dollar industry.
00:10:18
Speaker
And the message that permeates our subconscious is somebody else knows what's best for me. And yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. And so we're, I mean, we're Googling things like how often should I drink water when the body, the body literally knows how much water it needs, but we, there's so much.
00:10:44
Speaker
effort and practice and conditioning and all these other words that come into us relying on someone else to tell us what we need, that the actual source that can tell us exactly how much it needs, we don't really pay attention to that.
00:11:00
Speaker
Yeah, it reminds me I talk with that. So since I work mostly with trauma, I talk with a lot of my clients about one of the things that I think we get robbed of when we experience some kind of trauma, especially childhood trauma is the ability to trust ourselves.
00:11:19
Speaker
I guess as kids, I think that we don't even think to not trust ourself in a lot of ways. Like we know ourselves pretty well. We have like a confidence about us. Um, if you work from a parts perspective, we kind of talk about like self is always confident and calm and curious. And I think that when we have some sort of trauma or dysfunctional relationship, that's one of the thing that goes first is our ability to trust ourself. Yeah.
00:11:47
Speaker
Yeah. And it comes up in sessions all the time when people talk about, you know, intuition or I was thinking I should, but I didn't know. And and so, yeah, that trust, trusting ourselves and then even knowing what the body is saying, what is, you know, what is the body even communicating when it's when it's doing a thing, when it's feeling a feeling or when I'm when I'm anxious, what is my body even communicating to me? So that's
00:12:16
Speaker
That's all of that was within the process of self-awareness. And I like to use this example sometimes with my clients. I'll say something like, when the mouth is dry, the body is communicating that it needs some hydration. When you feel that rumble in your stomach or whatever hunger feels like to that person, the body is communicating that it needs something. And so I tend to think about our emotions in that same way that when I'm confused,
00:12:45
Speaker
OK, the body is doing this thing, so it needs something. You know, so what is what does it need? What does my confusion need? Like it needs questions. It needs to slow down and it needs clarity. And knowing those things kind of helps me to navigate the sessions with my clients and
00:13:06
Speaker
And I might not tell them directly this, like, hey, you're confused. You need to ask the right questions. It may not come out like that. But I can pick up on their confusion because I've looked at myself, and I know what my confusion is. And so if I see that they're confused, then I simply ask clarifying questions. Or I say, let's slow down for a
The Art of Shifting Perspectives
00:13:27
Speaker
minute. Let's sit with this and see if we can sort through the fog because it feels a little bit foggy right now. And I'll just kind of acknowledge that.
00:13:35
Speaker
with them or for them. But it all comes from the self-awareness, like the work that I continuously do with myself to understand how I'm moving through the world. And then I just bring that into the sessions. Yeah, I love that. I'm also thinking about you're kind of doing this research at that point in your career.
00:13:59
Speaker
But you've also been trained in a lot of like the traditional therapy, like models, right? And I think that this happens for most therapists that I know, but like you're trained in these, like the classical, like CBT and stuff like that, right? And then when you get down to the real world, you develop your own style, you develop your own way of doing things, which I want to dive all into like what you have going on in your practice now. But at that point was it kind of a feeling of,
00:14:28
Speaker
And this is not working. Mm hmm. Yeah. And yeah, yeah, it just wasn't working for me. I could go to trainings and I could see other people doing their thing and I could see how it would work for them. But then I found myself simply trying to mimic what they were doing. And so there was always that disconnect with trying to work CBT and the way that CBT was presented or DBT and the way it was presented or EMDR and the way it was presented. And that's
00:14:57
Speaker
it gets a little bit disconnected for me. So that's where shifting perspectives came in.
00:15:02
Speaker
Yeah. I, I agree. And I love that because again, like when we're talking about learning to trust ourselves, we as therapists have to learn to trust ourselves too, because I think about, um, we're dealing with such sensitive things and therapy that I think a lot of times it's hard to even trust ourselves of like, how do I help this person through this? This is so heavy. It's so hard. And so a lot of people default to, okay, let me go back to the script that I was taught.
00:15:32
Speaker
That's what I can trust, right? And it doesn't translate very well. It becomes really stiff and impersonal and therapy is not the place for nice teas, you know, and for melodies. And so I think that I've really grown as a therapist when I've allowed myself to modify and I've allowed myself to say, but this is what I'm actually seeing helps my clients. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't fit into like a traditional framework.
00:15:58
Speaker
Um, so I love that, that what you're saying is that you learn to trust yourself, which is what you're trying to teach your clients to do. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now I'm ready to hear all about it. I'm ready to hear all about shifting perspectives. So this is what you call the framework that you're using. Um, and it was influenced by all of this that we're talking about. So what does that look like in practice now? Yeah. So shifting perspectives. Yeah. It's that, it's that framework I came up with to help the client see themselves.
00:16:25
Speaker
And to kind of, yeah, to kind of backtrack a little bit, my, my practice is called ona ona counseling and consulting. And ona is why he live for C S E E C. And that really resonated with me because that's what I was doing. I felt like I'm helping my clients see themselves, see their problems, see their solutions and to see them clearly. And so shifting perspectives, I have their four different, um,
00:16:52
Speaker
practices or exercises that I work with with my clients to help them move that frown to a smile by intentionally being strategic with ideas. And so I say, OK, how do I get someone to engage with ideas? Because that's that was a whole different line of thinking than what I'd been taught. And what I noticed was a lot of what we're
00:17:19
Speaker
A lot of our feelings and a lot of the things that guide the way we live in the world come from some baseline absolute idea. You take, for example, for any of the Christian listeners or people that are familiar with Christianity, the phrase, God is good. We've heard that in many spaces. But that phrase, that idea, that line doesn't change regardless of how I feel, if the situation is pleasant or unpleasant.
00:17:48
Speaker
the idea still stays the same and life is kind of adjusted to meet the idea. And so I thought, okay, so if it happens here, then it's part of this process, you know, part of the process is like choosing an idea and like making it permanent during our conversation. This is a permanent idea. It's true. It's forever true. Now let's talk about it. You know,
00:18:14
Speaker
So when you start working with a client, is one of your first steps to identify what that statement already is for them? So there are a couple of ways I do it, because I'll give you an example. I was working with this person who she felt like she was an overthinker. And this is something that comes up in session. And she wanted to stop being an overthinker. How do I stop doing this?
00:18:41
Speaker
You know, and so one of the ways that I find an idea is by one choosing and choosing the thing that the client is running from. And I say, OK, you want to stop being an overthinker before we go down the road of stopping and changing.
00:18:54
Speaker
Let's look at this phrase. I am an overthinker. I am an overthinker. Oh, okay. So you kind of take like what the problem is and you put it into it, like almost like an I am statement because that's how you narrow down to like, that's what the belief already is. It's what it already is. It's living within them. When they show up to session is already alive and they spend so much time running away from it that I feel like we
00:19:20
Speaker
Let's actually talk about it. All right, so you are an overthinker. Let's make it true, just as permanent as God is good in this session. And so with that, then we start to explore, how does an overthinker take breaks? How does an overthinker parent in such a way that it benefits everyone in the family? How does an overthinker prevent burnout? How does an overthinker build successful relationships with people and have healthy boundaries
00:19:50
Speaker
And I just simply leave that statement as true and we explore their life without looking at, I need to stop overthinking. That is so interesting because I think you're right. Like most people would come in and say, this is the thing I want to work on changing. Right. And what you're saying is I'm not trying to change that because you already believe it. Right. That's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:16
Speaker
It's a, it's a fascinating process to watch, Julie. Like it really is. So when you're working with people and you tell them, let's don't try to push this away. Let's try to like, embrace it as if it's true and make adjustments according to that. Right. Are we making adjustments? I don't in the point when we're in session, we're actually not even focused on making adjustments just yet. We're just trying to get the client to.
00:20:44
Speaker
to see that this is what's already true for them. Because they're already making adjustments by trying to run away from it. These are all the adjustments they're already making. They put their timer on, and they put on a 30 minute, I'm going to meditate for 30 minutes. That's an adjustment. Or I'm going to make sure I'm not going to read a book while I'm eating. I'm just going to eat and not do two things. That's an adjustment. But they keep coming back to, oh my god, I'm still an overthinker.
00:21:14
Speaker
So I use the time and session to let's let's see how does an overthinker live? How does an overthinker create relationships? How does an overthinker truly actively listen to their children when they're speaking? How does an overthinker do it? So when you start that process, does it also impact the emotions around it?
00:21:40
Speaker
It does. Yeah. Like if you approach it from a place of how does an overthinker actively listen to their children instead of being feeling guilt, do they look at it more like, no, as an overthinker, I can learn to be fully present with my children. And so I have less guilt or anxiety or whatever the negative emotion is, because they feel like they have more of a plan of like, I still can do this.
00:22:07
Speaker
Yeah, so let me I'm going to answer that question, but first I'm going to like insert something that I feel this is my personal thought about emotions. I think that because I feel everything, everything from, you know, peace to rage and everything in between, I feel all the things then I'm not really much of a of an advocate of
00:22:35
Speaker
not feeling things or doing a thing so I won't feel. I think that some things naturally are fixed to a feeling. It's just culturally, depending on where you're raised, if you hold the door for someone, then you might be perceived as nice. And so here comes this feeling of altruism because I am holding the door.
00:22:59
Speaker
but maybe in another place you hold the door to like, what are you doing? You know, and now I feel weird. So I think that we feel all the feelings. So to come back to your question, like if the overthinker realizes that guilt is a part of overthinking, then we, we make peace with that, you know, like, and so I use the process of therapy to, to understand, like I kind of going back to understanding what it is,
00:23:28
Speaker
So a part of being an overthinker means you're gonna feel all the feelings, being an overthinker. Just like not being an overthinker, you're gonna feel all the feelings. So if guilt shows up in this place, but it doesn't show up in this place, that's a part of being an overthinker. And can we allow all the feelings to happen, because they're going to happen anyway, without being so hyper-focused on let me change, let me be something other than what I am.
00:24:00
Speaker
So I guess my question with that is when you're looking at what these truths are, is there ever a time where you would say, I don't want to adopt that because it, it, um, maybe it's something that I don't want to be my truth. Like I don't, I feel like that's becoming part of my identity. Mm-hmm.
00:24:26
Speaker
So I definitely leave that up to the client. You know, I'm not, I don't push like this is what we, what we have to do. And so if there we've, I've worked, this was one client and we, we talked about, um, what was the thing that we talked about? It was something about, we were talking about perspectives and how everybody can perceive you in a different way. And, and he ended up talking about like,
00:24:54
Speaker
being all the things that people perceive him as true. So if one person sees him as angry, then that's okay. If another person sees him as happy, then that's okay. And if another person sees him as this, then that's okay. And so he talked about accepting that I am all those
Personal Responsibilities vs. External Perceptions
00:25:09
Speaker
things. Well, we explored it a little bit, but that didn't work for him. He said, it just, it created a sense of.
00:25:15
Speaker
It was too much, too much weight form. And for him, he needed to categorize his life in such a way where he didn't have to be everything all the time. But I still feel like we landed at that place that felt natural for him. He listened to himself. And that's the whole process here. It's not about them doing a certain thing the way that I'm doing. All I'm doing is using the process to engage ideas
00:25:43
Speaker
until they land on one that creates a realization for them. And they say, you know, I like the categorized life. I said, okay, well, tell me about the categorized life. What does that look like, even as opposed to what we just talked about? And then we went down that road and then we translated over into
00:26:02
Speaker
their waking space and when they're out working and when they're outside of session, so to speak. I like that. I guess I'm thinking about, so if I work with a lot of clients who have a history of sexual abuse or childhood trauma, I can see where, again, if some of these experiences have made them not trust themselves, then I wonder how can that impact
00:26:31
Speaker
what their truth is. Like what if someone come in and their truth that they're telling themselves at that point is that I am broken or something like that. Like how would you work with someone that that presents with those kind of beliefs about themselves? Okay, perfect.
00:26:50
Speaker
Can we do an exercise? You want to do an exercise with me? All right. So I'm going to ask you a series of yes or no questions. Okay. And if the answer is no, I have one, one instruction for you. If the answer is no, I'm going to ask you why. And I want you to say, because that's yours. Okay. The answer is no. You say why. And I say, because that's yours, right? Because that's yours. Got it. Got it. All right. So let's say that I don't like,
00:27:19
Speaker
the way lavender smells. Okay. What, what smell don't I like? Lavender. Lavender. Okay. Does my dislike for lavender on this day at 1241 have anything to do with you? It does not. And why? Because that's worse. Okay. Well, what if you happen to walk by me, you know, one day and you're wearing something that smells like lavender. Is it your fault that my body,
00:27:48
Speaker
doesn't like lavender when you walked by? No. And why is that? Because it shorts. Okay. Let's push it a little further. Let's say you know, you know that my body doesn't like lavender and you decide I'm going to wear it to see what kind of reaction it creates within him. And you do and my body reacts. Is it your fault that my body does not like lavender even in that moment? No. And why?
00:28:18
Speaker
Because it's still yours. Because it's still mine. Right. So let's come back to the client who has experienced trauma. What do they often do? They often assume responsibility in places where their responsibility does not belong. And so in this first time, the first part I was talking about embracing what's mine.
00:28:41
Speaker
Another perspective is also realizing what's theirs, like not theirs as the client, but the other person. And I might use that perspective with a client of helping them to see, well, what's theirs? What is theirs that you're owning that literally has nothing to do with you because it's their thing? And so even that kind of still fits in some of those absolutes. And it challenges them a little bit because even when you talk about something like intentions, like, well,
00:29:11
Speaker
Julie intentionally wore it and then I did get a reaction. So it is kind of, it is kind of her fault, but at the, at the base level of it, it's not your responsibility or your fault that my body doesn't like what it doesn't like. That's not your fault. And you can, it'll never be your fault. And so we, I'll, I'll explore that road maybe with a client who's experienced some trauma.
00:29:37
Speaker
So that reminds me of how I talk with my clients about your stuff, my stuff. So my stuff is everything that I can control, which includes my decisions, but it also includes my reactions to things, the way that I choose to perceive them, the way I choose to respond to a certain extent, being able to choose your own emotion.
00:30:00
Speaker
And if I can't control it, it's because it's not mine. So anything outside of my control is not my my business. So it's like my business or business, right? And so with you describing it that way, is it kind of helping people say if they come in and they're saying I'm broken, that they're actually that that actually means that they're taking on something that is not their responsibility. Is that what you mean? Yeah.
00:30:24
Speaker
So maybe that's not their actual belief. Maybe that's something that they're telling themselves, but that's something that they've actually picked up from someone else. Yeah. But you also know what I like about what I do is I can explore both. And I might not do both at the same time, but I will look at I am broken. And I say, OK, let's sit with that. Let's look at what that is. Let's look at what it means to be broken.
00:30:54
Speaker
Tell me about that. Are you broken when you when you wake up in the morning and you yawn and you have morning breath and you're you roll out of bed and get ready to turn the AC up because it's cold and you really like that blanket because it kept you warm. Is that a moment where you're thinking of being broken or is the I am broken like situational? You know, like let's let's talk about I am broken.
00:31:18
Speaker
And so we could go down that road of embracing it, which is the first, the first perspective is embracing it and looking at unbroken. And then we could also look at the second perspective, which is that's yours and see what is what someone else's, you know, what is the thing that I'm taking responsibility for within being broken? That's not actually mine. Oh, I like that. Yeah. And so both can be true at the exact same time. It's just a matter of.
00:31:47
Speaker
you know, strategically using it in session. And that's all kind of things that I've learned over the years of how and when to use which perspective. Hey, everyone. I just wanted to pause for a quick moment to say thank you so much for all the love and support that you're showing outside of session.
00:32:13
Speaker
If you haven't already, do me a huge favor and hit the subscribe button. Give me a five star review and share this podcast with all of your friends. Help me take this show to another level. Now back to today's episode.
00:32:29
Speaker
You know, it's interesting when, when you were saying before of saying like, let's sit with what if this is true? The example of I'm broken popped into my head. And my immediate response when you were talking was like, no, I would never ask a client to say, well, what is it like if you're broken? But, but I'm realizing that like, that is my stuff coming in.
00:32:47
Speaker
Because I don't want my clients to feel like they are broken. But what you're saying is that's my stuff, right? Like that's my responsibility. And that there's actually some value in being able to sit with what does that even mean instead of just immediately trying to change it. Because we assume that it comes with feelings of
00:33:07
Speaker
hopelessness or, um, you know, having less worth, you know, those kinds of things that come up with, um, being broken. But what you're saying is like, hang on a second. What are you actually telling yourself throughout the day? If you have this belief of I'm broken, like how is it actually showing up and sitting with that uncomfortable feeling to explore it first? Right. Yeah. When does it show up? Where do you feel it in your body?
00:33:32
Speaker
And this is all going back to that self-awareness because sometimes they'll know that their life is in their feeling turmoil, but they won't even know where they're feeling it in their body. And so we'll just have a week between sessions where it's like, okay, I am broken is what we're looking at. Let's hold that for a week. Let's not get rid of it just yet. And all you're doing this this week
00:33:59
Speaker
is trying to see where do you feel it in your body when that phrase shows up. Because it's there, it's already, you showed up to session with it, so it's there. But let's see where you feel it in the body, and we can use that information to see what the body's communicating, and it kind of goes back into what we talked about earlier.
00:34:21
Speaker
Yeah, and I love that you're saying that because I feel like people are finally becoming more and more aware of that there's so often a disconnect between what we're thinking about ourselves and what we're actually feeling, but our body carries so much. And a lot of people never stop and ask themselves that question of, where do I feel that in my body? And I'll ask clients that all the time and they're like, I don't know. And it takes a lot of that mind-body connection and doing that work to being able to say like,
00:34:49
Speaker
Oh, that is very much, um, and being able to name a specific place of like that sits on my chest. Well, what does it feel like on your chest? Because you can have different feelings in your chest too, but being able to name, like that's exactly where it is. Yeah. So you do a lot of that like somatic work with it as well. Yeah, definitely. And sometimes it's, it's less overt. I'll just, I'll just walk them through it or I'll allow them to experience it and then I'll, I'll name it.
00:35:19
Speaker
You know, just I see that you're kind of reflecting this kind of counseling one-on-one type of thing where I'll reflect what their body is doing and asking them that they notice that. But yeah, so I definitely use all of those tools. And it's my ultimate goal here is kind of if I'm jumping right way back to the beginning of shifting perspectives, if I notice that when a person has a realization,
00:35:47
Speaker
or an epiphany, then the change that we're often looking for as therapists has already happened. Once they realize a thing, then the change is there. And I think about a person who's walking, and maybe they keep stumbling, and they're falling, and they're confused, and they're frustrated, and then they realize their shoes are untied. It's like, once they realize that
00:36:12
Speaker
It's almost like nothing else is needed at that point. The path has already changed because the realization has occurred. And so that's my end goal within shifting perspectives. It's not focused on progress or focused on a specific thing that they do better. But what I've noticed is simply by exploring ideas with them, they come to a realization. It just magically happens. That's the fascinating part about it. It all is because it just
00:36:42
Speaker
It just happens randomly. And I know you've been in session many times where a client had an aha moment and you were like, what part of this conversation was aha worthy? But they had a moment, so I'm just going to let them keep it. And that's just how it happens.
00:36:59
Speaker
And even what you're describing with the, um, the two perspectives that you shared, the bracing and the that shores, both of those are helping clients see themselves. Cause that's like, that's like the, the thing holding all of this up, right? Is like, if you can see yourself differently, then that's what ends up shifting that perspective. Yeah. Or see yourself as you are.
00:37:25
Speaker
as you are. Yeah. Yeah. And different. Yeah. Differently. I mean, by like a way you haven't seen yourself before probably are always has been right. Yeah. So that's two of the perspectives. Do you want to share the other two? I don't want you to tell all your secrets today. I'll give a quick one. Like the, the, the last two, one of them is the third one is let go. And the fourth one is let's see. And so the, the third one,
00:37:51
Speaker
We've introduced this idea of responsibility, like in the example I gave, are you responsible for? No, that's yours. So let go is about no one within this situation is responsible. No one is at fault. And that's an interesting one to explore with clients too, because what I've noticed is we don't tend to create responsibility and fault unless a label is associated and a label being positive, negative, good or bad.
00:38:21
Speaker
When you sat down in your chair to do the recording, if you didn't label that experience as a positive sit-down, then you just sat down and you kept on doing your thing. So no responsibility was given. You didn't say, oh, gosh, Julie sits down, great. Or this man, you're just chair manufacturer, like, wow, they make sturdy chairs. You didn't do that. There was no label, positive or negative. So no responsibility or fault was given. And so what I tend to do with let go is we look at a situation
00:38:50
Speaker
And I challenge them to see how no one is at fault in this situation, even if the person proceeds what they've done as a mistake or wrong. And that's the challenge because they want to take ownership of the entire situation.
00:39:07
Speaker
Yeah, so you work with couples a lot too, right? I can see how that would be really, really helpful with couples because a lot of times there's just so much blame on things being done wrong, right? So does that come up with couples a lot of trying to say, let's neutralize the situation and stop looking at it as somebody has to take responsibility because something was done wrong? Right, definitely. And to your point about childhood trauma, I mean, both people coming together have their own
00:39:36
Speaker
histories that neither person is responsible for. I'm not responsible for the 20 years of history that came with my wife when we met. She's not responsible for the years that came with me. So if she does a thing that triggers something in me, it's not it's not about responsibility. It's not it's not either one of our faults because we didn't we didn't create the path that we both walked for the past 20 years.
00:40:05
Speaker
So it's not her fault that I'm upset or it's not my fault that I'm upset or vice versa. It's now, okay, this is how we feel. Now, if this is how we feel, where do we go from here? What is the body communicating? And we're back. We're back at looking at ourselves and the situation to determine what's the best step.
00:40:27
Speaker
That's really interesting because I think that especially in society, there's like with cancel culture and there's just a lot of like, we are hyper reactive, I think. Yeah, for sure. So I feel like if you could just do a national seminar where everybody has to listen to it or something like that, that'd be great. Yeah. Okay. And so then your last one is let's see. Yeah. Let's see is all about the experiment. So we spent
00:40:57
Speaker
three perspectives, talking about ideas. Let's see is let's make it real. How do we take what we've talked about and turn it into out of session practice? You know, so how do we hold on to, if we're going to hold on to I am broken for a week, how do we do that? What's the, what are these practical steps to make this a reality, something we can practice over the next week?
00:41:22
Speaker
because we're still engaging with that idea. And maybe over the course of the week, they'll have some realization while engaging with it that they'll bring back to the session. So it's all still a part of it. They're using an idea that they showed up with or that we engaged with to see themselves, and then they're practicing with it outside of session in the way that we come up with and to the point of, at some point, having a realization that leads them to knowing what the next step is
00:41:51
Speaker
naturally rather than it being a forced thing.
00:41:57
Speaker
I like that. And I feel like it's also such like a, a gentle way of saying things. Let's just see. Yeah. We don't know exactly how it's going to turn out. And I think that that, that is how you build self trust sometimes is to say, I'm just going to trust myself to try it, to try this on and see what happens. Right. Yeah. I've, I didn't create this. I heard, I overheard someone say it and I out, but I also use it with my clients. I tell them it's like trying on new clothes.
00:42:23
Speaker
So we're gonna we're gonna try this new shirt on and you know what you do when you try on clothes You look in the mirror you dance around a little bit and you know you twirl or you walk outside say hey How's this look folks? You know, whatever you do and if you like it you keep it and if you don't you put it back on the shelf There's no pressure. There's literally no pressure you put it on the shelf and you do something else, you know And so that's that's our approach with with let's see we hold on to it for a minute. We'll try this shirt on and
00:42:51
Speaker
We'll see what it feels like. We'll work with it. And if it works, we keep it. If it doesn't, we let it go. I like that. I like that a lot. So one of the things that I wanted to ask is, is what are some of the signs of people? So if all of this is to help people to see themselves, really be able to see themselves. What are some of those signs that you see when people first
00:43:19
Speaker
Maybe it's the first time they sit down in front of you or you're in those first few sessions with them and you have like this ability to like, with everything that you know, that you could tell that people aren't seeing themselves clearly. Yeah. If that's how you would phrase it, that they don't see themselves clearly. So I think the major thing for me then, and we all ask this question and it starts with the word how, how do I, how do I, how, you know, it, so for me, it starts with the question.
00:43:48
Speaker
What's the thing that they're searching for? What's the thing that they're wanting? Because things that we don't question are things that we are already familiar with in terms of seeing ourselves. I got this backpack. I didn't ask myself, how do I put it on? I just put it on. I know enough about it. I've had interactions with it. And so I just put it on. So when they show up and they're saying,
00:44:16
Speaker
How do I become a better communicator with my partner? So that, that for me is a sign that they're just, they're, they're, they're not seeing what is already a part of them and knowing how to work that into the question or into the answer. Um, so that that's, that's generally how it is, but that's, I mean, that's all of us in, in, in many ways, when we ask the question, how?
00:44:41
Speaker
Yeah. But I like that because that even for anybody listening today, like you can go ahead and start thinking through that anywhere in your life that you have some questioning. It's, it's a cue, right? Of being able to say, okay, so maybe there's something I'm missing about myself there. I haven't, I haven't either looked at myself honestly, or I haven't embraced something or I haven't questioned something. Right. Right. Yeah. And I'll, and I'll throw this in there. I think one of the, the things that makes
00:45:11
Speaker
The things that make looking at ourselves the most difficult is, is labels, labels that come from, you know, morals, belief systems, social norms, company policies. Um, you know, my social circle, their labels everywhere. And it's, I think I want to say 100% of the time,
00:45:39
Speaker
But yeah, I'll say it 100% of the time when I'm working with my clients, they often bump up against the label that they're afraid of that like connects to the answer for them because the label of
00:45:55
Speaker
I don't want to be seen as lazy or I don't want to be perceived as a hypocrite or I don't want my boss to think that I'm not doing a good job. And so all of these labels that show up, like that's usually the main thing that gets in the way of not just seeing yourself, but holding it. Even holding it in a session can be very challenging because
00:46:21
Speaker
I don't want to, I don't want to say that cause I don't want to sound mean and yeah. So put that all together. So if you had, so you started off with the example of the overthinker. What do you feel like some of those labels are that could potentially be hindering a person from being able to see themself? Yeah. So under the overthinker, the person I was working with was a, was a parent and that just simply the need to be a good parent, that label, I want to be a good parent.
00:46:51
Speaker
That fueled a lot of the overthinking. And to hold on to overthinking and the label of overthinking is a bad thing. If you're overthinking, then you're not really listening to your kids. If you're not listening to your kids and you're not being present, and if you're not present, they're going to go to jail. All the places that the mind goes. And so just saying, I am an overthinker immediately creates a lot of emotions that
00:47:21
Speaker
It's perfect for the therapist. We can work through a lot of the things that make being yourself in this moment very difficult. It's even difficult holding the belief or holding this idea as it is just because of everything that comes with it. And so we have to talk through that and ease some of the pressure of the labels.
00:47:49
Speaker
Yeah, and I would imagine that people have so many labels that they're not even aware of because it's entrenched, right? Just societal labels like you're talking about, like all the things that lead to mom guilt, those kind of things, right? Like we're not even aware of what we're believing sometimes or what we're...
00:48:11
Speaker
letting control us. Yeah. Right. Right. So is that one of the things that can lead to an aha moment in therapy is to even be able to name like I didn't realize what a hold this thing had on this label had on me. Yes. Yes.
Impact of Societal Labels and Personal Growth
00:48:25
Speaker
Just just that alone. Yeah. And then when you can name it, you can decide to release it. Right. You can decide what many things from that point. Yeah. Kind of like realizing the shoe is untied. I mean, at that point, whether I tied or not,
00:48:40
Speaker
I already see, so the next time I stumble and fall, I feel differently than I did when I failed before knowing, before the realization. That's so good. A shift has already happened. Yeah, so even having that information, it's not really about what you do with it.
00:49:01
Speaker
but it shifts the perspective in and of itself so that you can have a better, like you can make your own decision of what to do with it instead of just automatically reacting. Right. And my approach as a therapist is I trust that they, the client knows what to do with their realizations. I trust that. And so I try not to take
00:49:28
Speaker
um, control of what they do with the realization. If they don't know what to do, if the next question after is, well, how do I take this into real life? Then, then I, I follow them with there, you know, with that. And we, and we talk it out and we look at their life and see, well, how does it even fit? But that that's definitely, that's just one of my own boundaries within the model is not determining what they do with, with the realization.
00:49:57
Speaker
For some reason, I imagine that this can be a frustrating process. Especially for those clients that are like, just tell me what to do. And you're like, this is harder work.
00:50:10
Speaker
I'm sure hard work pays off, right? Because like you said, you're coming to your own conclusions that only you can arrive at. As I see absolutely see the value in it, but I imagine that there's sometimes in that process of just like, I don't want to have to see myself, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Because, because listening to what someone else says, it's always easier. It's so much easier. It's so much easier. It's painful.
00:50:40
Speaker
right? Because then we live with their expectations. And a lot of times those, I mean, majority of the time, so it's don't fit us. Yeah. But it's the easier approach. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what though, Julie, I think on, um, with, with this model that I'm not afraid to work with any idea, any, because so even the person who says I'm comfortable, I'm most comfortable listening to others to tell me what to do, I said, okay, that's,
00:51:10
Speaker
That's an idea. Let's explore. How does a person who listens to other people feel authentic? Or is that what authenticity feels like? Or whatever the thing is that they're struggling with, I just bring that idea into it. So it's not me forcing them to put away something. If that's what they have,
00:51:37
Speaker
then we explore that because they can have a realization even within, I like listening to other people. I don't like to make decisions on my own. Okay, let's hold that. Let's actually make that true. This is true about you. I don't listen to myself. No, I don't. All right, let's talk about it. Now let's explore. Let's explore life, the life of a person who doesn't listen to themselves. We can explore that.
00:52:06
Speaker
It's, it's, it's an idea. It's an idea. Any idea can be explored. Yeah. I think what I'm really admiring right now about your process is that this can be really, really hard for a therapist, but I think it's so important. You come in with no agenda of your own.
00:52:27
Speaker
Do I not have any agenda? I don't know. I might have an agenda. I think you have an agenda to help, but even hearing you say, I'll explore any idea. I'm not opposed to going down any road that they're taking me on because that's their truth and it's their lived experience. And for you to be able to say, let's go with that, let's work with that and see where it takes us. I think that that shows that you don't hear something and say, oh, I think you need to change that.
00:52:57
Speaker
Because it would be really easy to say, no, I want you to become someone who doesn't have to listen to other people and can learn to listen to yourself. But that would be my wish for that client. Right. Exactly. And what you're saying is, OK, well, you're telling me about you. I'm not telling you about you. You're telling me about you. Right. Right. Right. That can be very hard. Yes. Yeah. That was that stumbling block that I ran into in my early
00:53:26
Speaker
years of therapy because I was trying to make them live life the way I live. And so I'm like, you see the door being open is the problem. Just close the damn door, like close it, you know? Just I'm showing up every week, week after week telling you to close the door, just close the door. But that's my solution. It's not theirs. Theirs is I like the door open. Okay. All right. You like the door open?
00:53:55
Speaker
So rodents can come in. So what do we do? How do we live with open doors? And, and that just changed everything for me. It does. It does. Yeah. I love that. Um, I'm kind of looking over the notes that I had, and I don't think I have any more specific questions. Is there anything else that you want us to know about shifting perspective?
00:54:16
Speaker
Um, I think that's, that's, yeah, we covered, we covered so much. I mean, I have a million more questions. We might be doing a part two on this because this is so fascinating to me. Um, but one thing that I do ask all of my guests that I want to ask before we jump off is if you could go back and tell your younger self one thing now that you have this life experience and not necessarily about your practice or anything like that, but just in general, if you could go back and tell your younger self one thing, what would it be?
00:54:45
Speaker
Hmm. You know, I don't, I don't know if I would tell him anything. Yeah. I think the way that I live, I, I referenced my older self a lot, just when I'm talking to, talking to people, talking to my wife. And so I feel like.
00:55:10
Speaker
whoever I am, you know, 20, 30 years from now, I'm already communicating, like I'm already like in sync with that person. And so if I could, if that could actually be a literal thing where I could see my younger self and say something specific to him, I think I would already, I think I'm already him, you know? And so the fact that my older self sees the younger self lets the older self know
00:55:39
Speaker
Hey, well, at least he gets to this age, you know, so I don't know about, I don't think I would tell him anything. I think he's, he's just fine. He's just fine as he is with all, all the experiences it's gonna, it's gonna help him to get to me. And that's me, the older self saying that. Yeah.
00:55:56
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. Jonathan, thank you so much for being here today. So I'm going to make sure in the show notes to put your contact information because I have feeling that people are going to want to reach out and just hear a little bit more about you. And yeah, if we do another season of this, I'm definitely going to have you back on so we can pick your brain some more. This was amazing. I really enjoyed
00:56:18
Speaker
conversing with you. This has been great. I really enjoyed it, Julie. Thank you so much. I know everybody else is going to enjoy listening to this so well. That's all we have for this week, so I hope everyone has a good week and we'll talk to you later.
00:56:33
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Outside of Session. Remember, while I am a licensed therapist, this podcast is not a substitute for individual therapy. The contents of this episode are for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you are having a mental health emergency, please dial 911 for immediate assistance or dial 988 for the suicide and crisis lifeline.