Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Ep: 72: From Gay to Ze: How to talk to teens about gender and sexuality
372 Plays1 year ago
Lotte Jeffs and Stu Oakley, hosts of Some Families podcast, join me on Teenage Kicks in this episode to talk about how we approach our teenagers about gender and sexuality. Stu says here that it's completely normal for parents to find this difficult - it's a very easy conversation, where I make lots of mistakes and am not made to feel bad about it, so it's perfect for parents who don't know how to approach the subject with their teenagers.
- 6:00 - Fighting our homophobic upbringings as middle aged parents
- 7:00 - The acceptability of 'queer', and the language we need to know
- 21:55 - How queer identities are labelled by sex, and the need to teach kids about love and relationships beyond sex
- 25:10 - Working out who you are as a teenager
- 31:50 - How to talk to teenagers about gender and sexuality
- 35:15 - What to say when your child tells you about their sexuality
- 40:30 - How to make sure your child is an ally to their queeer friends
- 50:00 - What you'll get out of reading The Queer Parent
Who are Lotte and Stu?
Lotte Jeffs and Stu Oakley run the podcast Some Families, is a podcast dedicated to celebrating LGBTQ+ families. Lotte is an award-winning magazine writer, editor, author and podcaster, and a contributing editor for Grazia. Stu is a film publicist; he's written a number of opinion pieces for the Guardian, Grazia, ELLE and NetMums about his own parenting journey and the experiences of being part of a queer family.
Their recent book, The Queer Parent is the essential handbook for the LGTBQ+ community, their friends, family and allies. This informative, funny and empowering book is a must read for anyone who wants to understand and support the full breadth of the queer experience.
Useful links:
- Buy your copy of The Queer Parent (affiliate link)
- Surviving domestic abuse as a teenager
- Out with Suzi Ruffell podcast
- Lotte's book My Magic Family for young children (affiliate link)
- Anna Mathur on Instagram
- From Gay to Ze on Instagram
More teenage parenting from Helen Wills:
Helen wills is a teen mental health podcaster and blogger at Actually Mummy, a resource for midlife parents of teens. Thank you for listening! Subscribe to the Teenage Kicks podcast to hear new episodes. If you have a suggestion for the podcast or want to hear more on parenting teenagers contact me on Instagram and Twitter @iamhelenwills.
For information on your data privacy please visit Zencastr.
Please note that Helen Wills is not a medical expert, and nothing in the podcast should be taken as medical advice. If you're worried about yourself or a teenager, please seek support from a medical professional.
Podcast produced by James Ede at Be Heard production.
Recommended
Transcript
Managing Worries and Parenting Advice
00:00:00
Speaker
you're always going to be worried about them. So let yourself have those worries, but don't let yourself become one of the worries for them.
Introduction to Teenage Kicks Podcast
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast, where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager.
00:00:25
Speaker
I'm Helen Wills and every week I talk to someone who had a difficult time in the teenage years but came out the other side in a good place and has insight to offer to parents and young people who might be going through the same.
Guest Introduction: Lottie Jess and Stu Oakley
00:00:43
Speaker
Today, I'm talking to Lottie Jess and Stu Oakley, hosts of some families podcast, which is dedicated to celebrating LGBTQ plus families. And as well as their podcasts, which I've found really informative, Lottie and Stu have written a book, The Queer Parent, which we will talk about in this episode.
00:01:04
Speaker
They described the book as the essential handbook for the LGBTQ plus community.
Conversations about Gender and Sexuality
00:01:11
Speaker
I need to get good enough that that trips off my tongue. They're friends, family and allies. And as a wannabe ally, I found it really useful to help me understand more about the queer experience, something which I will openly admit and have just proved with my pronunciation. I have limited experience of.
00:01:33
Speaker
Having teenagers thrusts us into places we may have comfortably chosen to swerve previously, drugs, sex, and tattoos for starters. And gender and sexuality is right up there at the top of the list of concerns our teens are very preoccupied with. They talk about it in school, they talk about it with their friends, and if we're lucky, they share their feelings about it with us.
00:01:58
Speaker
My own kids have been pretty forthright in their views, including their view of me as a bit less aware than I could be. And I'm honestly grateful for the education. But as someone who grew up in the 70s with parents who grew up with all their own stereotypes, I felt pretty ill-equipped at times to know how to navigate those conversations. I'm going to ask Stu and Lottie how we can best support our kids in conversations about sexuality and gender, where it feels like they know more than we do.
00:02:28
Speaker
And basically look for a bit of reassurance that I haven't got it all wrong. Lottie, it's due. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much. Well, thanks for having us here. I want to say straight off, straight off, like that's one of the reasons and a lot of people ask us about why we called our book The Queer Parent and why we use the word queer, which I think is a question that a lot of people have.
00:02:49
Speaker
was exactly because even for us LGBTQ plus is a mouthful and I think for a lot of people that's why I think queer as a terminology to encapsulate everybody within the queer and LGBTQ plus spectrum because it is a mouthful right Lottie?
The Use of 'Queer' in Identity Discussions
00:03:08
Speaker
We trip ourselves up sometimes and I think it's okay for others to you know if they feel like they're tripping themselves up
00:03:15
Speaker
Just when we were recording the audiobook of our book, The Queer Parent, like having to say LGBTQIA+, like over and over again, by the end, we were just like, oh my God, can't we just think of a short acronym? But so yeah, I agree. Queer is all encompassing in a holistic way, but it's also just like an easier word to say.
00:03:45
Speaker
Thank you for saying that Stu, because it's... Well, it's a minefield, right? It's a minefield. I think for straight people and I think for people who don't want to get it wrong and feel like they're worried about getting things wrong,
00:03:59
Speaker
I think, you know, it's, and at the end of the day, we would say it's about intention. If your intentions are good and you're curious and you're just wanting to learn and know to get it right, or to, I think that's all that matters. And I think like right off from the start, just to say like, we're a safe space. Like it's, it's all about just coming to it from a, right, let's, let's unpick this and, and work out how everyone can, can really get it right without being fearful of getting it wrong.
00:04:29
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it's like so many other conversations, isn't it? Like racism is the same kind of situation. People like me, white middle class, very privileged person. I feel like I just, I want to be there and I want to be a voice. I want to be an ally. I just don't want to offend anybody. And I know that that irritates, even just saying that out loud, it irritates a lot of people. But
00:04:56
Speaker
I need to learn and I need to not be punished while I'm learning because otherwise I'll probably, well, I won't, but people would tend to just scurry away and hide and not address it at all. So, and I'm really, thank you for kind of making that point about the word queer because, so let me, I'll just explain. My experience of the word queer until recently is my dad in the 70s.
00:05:23
Speaker
who used it alongside other words which I won't mention but we all know what they are because he wasn't a bad person, he wasn't a nasty person and he wasn't being deliberately homophobic but he was being homophobic and racist and all of the other things that he was as a guy who was born in the 30s to a Victorian family.
00:05:46
Speaker
Well, his mother was part of a Victorian family and that's how he was raised. So that rubbed off on me. And there are loads of us as parents at my age who are shedding that and changing and trying to fight the stereotyping and misogyny that was bred into us, basically.
Generational Stereotypes and Parental Roles
00:06:08
Speaker
And it's quite a vulnerable place to be. So queer,
00:06:14
Speaker
I realize I've just made this podcast all about me and my vulnerabilities and that's not what we're here for. Queer, is that an acceptable term to everyone in the LGBTQ plus domain? I think it's hard to say that everybody's comfortable with that term because in the same way that you come to it with that experience, lots of particularly older
00:06:41
Speaker
gay people have that experience too, it was used as a pejorative term in the playground, they were bullied, they have like very negative associations with it. So I would say, if you do meet a queer gay person, to just say what terms you prefer, or just listen to them first to see what term they use, and then just mirror that. So I think, I would say this is maybe a huge generalization, but I would say younger people
00:07:11
Speaker
would probably be happier with the word queer. If I was meeting like a 65 year old gay man, I would probably use the word gay. So it's not easy. And it's not one size fits all. So I think just asking questions and listening. I think in terms of teenagers, though, like you say, Lottie, and in terms of what we're talking about, I think
00:07:33
Speaker
the majority of the younger generation Gen Z teenagers are being brought up with the word queer in a very positive way. And so they're using it and embracing it. So if we're talking about teenagers and your kids, then I think that queer would be a very acceptable and used term that they're used to. You look at things like Heartstopper, the TV series, and that is very much positioned
00:07:59
Speaker
using the word queer. And I think that for the next generation, it will become more of a celebratory word rather than a derogatory one.
00:08:09
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah, that's really interesting. And it just makes me think of something my daughter, my daughter and I have had these conversations because she is she's my daughter's going off to university next week to study politics. So she tells us how things are and how she thinks they should be quite frequently. God, that would drive me mad. I don't know how I'm going to be when my I mean, my five year old already thinks she knows more than me about things that I find it deteriorating. Oh, yeah, get used to it.
00:08:42
Speaker
No, I'm just thinking about labels. And as you say, it's quite complex. There is no one size fits all, which is why there's so many initials in the acronym. And she
00:08:56
Speaker
So I mentioned to her that I've met someone who had pronouns that I'd never heard of before. And I was struggling to remember them and say them in the right context. And she said, well, that's fine, you just apologize, which I get, that's fine. And until you've learned them. But the reason people, I was like, why do people do that?
00:09:16
Speaker
Why don't they stay with they and them? And this is my naivety because you know the answer to that. And I now know the answer to that. She said because the whole non-binary thing by a lot of people is being seen as another gender label.
00:09:35
Speaker
So you're either male, female or you're non-binary and people don't, that's not the point and they don't want to be labelled as a specific. So is queer a label? Oh, we're getting very existential and meta here and we haven't even talked about your teenage years yet. Would you have a take on that either of you? I mean, it sounds like your daughter's just given you a great answer. Like I don't know what I could really add to that, I think.
00:10:03
Speaker
Stu and I would say we're not experts. We're coming to this, a lot of these conversations, you know, as our generation, you know, I'm in my 40s, Stu's in his mid 30s. You know, we're coming at them, you know, slightly like you, we're learning as well. So I don't think just because you are queer, it instantly makes you an expert on like pronouns. I don't know. I've actually never met anyone that uses, you know, I've met they them.
00:10:30
Speaker
pronouns, but I've never met anyone that uses another one personally. So yeah, I probably struggled grammatically to use it in a sentence as well. Yeah. Stu, do you have anything on that? I'm conscious Stu's got a bit of a delay on his sound. I think the thing that I found most interesting, and I know that definitely I'm not speaking for you Lottie, but I know that Lottie's also found interesting, is the sense of if we were teenagers now,
00:10:58
Speaker
how we would identify ourselves. And I think both Lottie and I have been through, God, we use the word journey all the time on our podcast, and I hate using it all the time, but we have been on a bit of a journey where it's like, well, actually, when I was a teenager, I was quite, not gender confused, but there were certain things that I pushed against the stereotype of being a boy. And I know that Lottie feels very much the same. And actually, if we had been teenagers
00:11:28
Speaker
now whether we would be using they them as our pronouns or whether we would be using he they or she they. Because I think that's the beautiful thing about the the gender identity exploration that teenagers and young people can go on now is that you can really try and find who you are and find your tribe within the LGBTQ plus community because it's not just one size fits all. And I think that's what all these different pronouns are now exploring.
Inclusive Environments for Identity Exploration
00:11:58
Speaker
Yeah, and I see that in our school, there's multiple kids with different identities and different ways of expressing themselves.
00:12:11
Speaker
what I understand, and this is for everybody, even heteronormative people, they're learning to an extent in schools, they're learning to be who they are and express who they are, as opposed to
00:12:29
Speaker
conforming to any kind of label. Of course, that goes hand in hand in a state education, well, in every education in the UK, with you also have to be economically successful in the capitalist system that we've co-created over the last however many decades. But it's just a really confusing time for teenagers. Look, we could really get into off on another plane here. I also feel that
00:12:59
Speaker
Which is a wonderful thing because I think we're all in agreement that there have been too long this sense of stereotypical, I think there was a report out this week, wasn't there, about women still doing more in the household than men in the study of same-sex couples.
00:13:18
Speaker
And it's trying to move away from that kind of, I think everyone is trying to, oh yeah, sorry, mixed sex couples. I think everyone's trying to move away from that 1950s housewife style, woman at home, man at work area. And I feel that the exploration of identities and non-binaries is simply a way to try and break down those stereotypes. If you were to look at it through the eyes
00:13:45
Speaker
of say your generation Helen who very much are trying for you know a quality across the board for women or workplace and I think what the young now are doing are actually like well why should I conform to what a woman or a girl should be and the same for boys why and I feel a lot of it
00:14:04
Speaker
Obviously, there's a lot of cases where it is more nuanced than that, but I think a lot of it is fundamentally down to that. Yeah. I think it's actually, although it's a really scary place to be as a teenager, it's quite an exciting place to be as a teenager. It feels quite formative to me. Their opinions and their choices, looking at my kids and their friends seem
00:14:27
Speaker
to be quite experimental and quite free, as free as they can be in the system that I've just described. We could go into, we could go down a whole other tangents, but I wanna go back to where I normally start the podcast by asking both of you, it's his tradition on this podcast, I ask about my guests' teenage years, and I know that you're forearmed. That is what I'm gonna ask.
00:14:54
Speaker
Lottie, do you want to start and tell us a little bit about what growing up as a teenager was like for you?
Personal Reflections on Teenage Experiences
00:15:00
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I just think my parents were so lucky with me as a teenager because I literally was the easiest, most kind of, what's the word, compliant child, young person that I think
00:15:24
Speaker
they could have hoped for quite honestly. There were no massive rouse, there was no door slamming, there was no anger. I did really well at school, had nice conversations with my parents. We talked about books, we talked about arts. They were interested in my studies. We had fun, we had a laugh together.
00:15:52
Speaker
I kind of was the sort of kid that...
00:15:56
Speaker
kept a lot of things secret because I wanted to avoid conflict. So I just didn't tell my, it was mainly my mum that would be, have issues. I didn't tell her that I was going out to a gay club in Soho on a Friday night with my best gay friend. I just said, I'm going to stay at Will's house this weekend. Because I knew if I told her, she would have said, you can't go. And then it would of course an argument. So my whole like modus operandi was to,
00:16:26
Speaker
keep the peace and to have a calm and gentle experience. And it worked. And like, it was fine. I, you know, I got away with loads of stuff. My mum never knew, she never worried. You know, God knows we were doing all sorts.
00:16:46
Speaker
living in central London, where I grew up in Kensington, I was getting the like 14 bus into Soho with my mates, we were going out, you know, clubbing and we were sensible, I think. But you know, we certainly found ourselves in predicaments that I'm sure if my mum had known about, she would have been a little bit outraged. But yeah, you know, I had a good time, I had a nice relationship with my parents. But that's me, I'm not, I've never been a emotionally like,
00:17:18
Speaker
vocal person like I'm just quite like I figure things out myself I don't like conflict I don't don't like shouting my parents never shouted at each other they didn't shout at me we did we weren't a shouty family um yeah so it was great and I guess though the downside of that is maybe I was
00:17:41
Speaker
This is maybe getting a little bit deep, but I think I maybe felt that my mum was quite vulnerable, like emotionally vulnerable, and wouldn't have been able to cope with me being more...
00:17:56
Speaker
honest about what I was doing. I didn't, my mum was someone that was like very quick to tears, very quick to emotion, very sort of fragile, things would really upset her, hypersensitive. So I think I just felt like she wasn't equipped, she wasn't resilient, like we couldn't have had a back and forth argument. And then being like, oh, and then the next day be like, oh, we're best friends again. Like it would have been like, you know, she would have been like,
00:18:23
Speaker
emotionally destroyed by it and I would feel terrible so it's almost that thing of like now I feel with my daughter that I want to be a bit more robust and I want her to know that she can shout at me and she can tell me she hates me and I won't crumble I'll still be there because I think I actually did a lot of sort of emotional like protecting of my mum that was maybe a little bit
00:18:49
Speaker
exhausting in reflection of what a what a teenager should have to be kind of managing. And obviously, I've come to that through years of therapy. Yeah. But you know, so yeah, it was a nice time. But it was also like, I have to question why I didn't feel like I was able to be sort of a little bit more emotional.
00:19:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, no, I understand that. Yeah, that arguments I wasn't well, I knew I couldn't have arguments with my parents. And it does it does impact you. But so on that basis, do you mind if I ask how? When did she know that? Did you come out? Yeah, I told her I think when I was like 17. Okay. It was fine. I think it wasn't like a big
00:19:42
Speaker
a big thing. I think she thought it was probably a phase. But then, you know, loads of my friends were gay. And I think she thought probably I was just like, getting swept up in it. But it was fine. And you know, my dad was like, interested and sort of giving me like, lesbian poetry to read and
00:20:06
Speaker
Share it, you know, like... Really? How did that last? Is that intellectual? Like, nice, you know, just, you know, he'd be like, oh, there's this poet that you might be interested in. And it was all quite sort of intellectual, I guess, cerebral. So more than emotional and shouty. Sorry, I'm just having my windows cleaned. Oh, it's fine. Like a squeezy mop on the window outside my office. No, it's all fine. We have all sorts on this podcast. So, yeah, that was my experience, really.
00:20:35
Speaker
Yeah. Interesting. I love that I've got a picture of your dad trying his best to connect in the way that he knew how to connect. Exactly. Like through art or through literature for sure. Yeah. But I think that was nice. It stopped it from being like too heavy.
00:20:53
Speaker
Yes, too up close, embarrassing confronting.
Early Sex Education and Identity Conversations
00:20:56
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we all as parents of teenagers do struggle to have these conversations. I get asked about it so often, like, well, when's the best time to tell your kids about sex? And like, well, when they ask. But people, people
00:21:13
Speaker
people do get quite squeamish about how to communicate this stuff with their kids. I always say if they ask, they're likely to ask around the age of three or four, so tell them then. Just tell them what they need to know at that point and don't be embarrassed because then they just probably won't ask again. Stu, how are your teenage years?
00:21:37
Speaker
Before I jump into my teenagers, I think one thing that I think is a really is a good conversation point for people to think about, for parents to think about as well, is because historically,
00:21:47
Speaker
queer people, LGBTQ plus people have always been so associated with sex. And I feel that there is such a strong connection in that and that people associate. And I think that's why you see so much potential backlash still from very right wing people who are pushing it back against the education in schools or relationship education in schools because
00:22:16
Speaker
It's that thing of, oh, just let kids be kids. Don't force sex education on them. And I think the difference between gay relationships and queer relationships that
00:22:29
Speaker
I think is important to know is that we should be teaching children about relationships. And I think that's what schools are trying to do. They're trying to teach children about, like, for example, me and my husband and our kids, they're trying to teach about different types of families, the way that we live our lives, the way we love each other, the way that we have these relationships. Whereas I think people still associate gayness
00:22:53
Speaker
with teaching about sex and teaching about sexuality. And I just wanted to make that point because I think what I think is important with speaking to young children is just embracing that there are different types of relationships of, you know, and without getting into the details, because we don't get into the details from a straight point of view when we're talking about
00:23:14
Speaker
you know, a mummy and a daddy. It's not suddenly you're talking about what mummy and daddy do in the bedroom. But for some reason when it comes to talking about queer relationships, that's very much forefront. Yeah, you're right. That is a really good point. Thank you for making it. And yeah, obviously that is where the majority of the problems come from because it's not about
00:23:37
Speaker
as you say, the way that we love each other and the fact that you can love your best friend who may be of any sex and still not be sexually involved in them in any way. Totally. So yeah, no, I'm not gonna let you stall. Tell us about your teenage years too. Oh, I don't even know where to begin. I mean, I think maybe I'm slightly opposite to Lottie in that I had a lot of different issues when I was a teenager and I was almost thinking before
00:24:04
Speaker
we started this conversation today, I'm like, which issue do I focus on? Because I don't think we've got time to look at them all. You know, I had I did without getting dark, and it's not something I probably will go into now on this, but I did have. Let's just say there was an abusive relationship in my household, which did affect a lot of things with my stepfather.
00:24:33
Speaker
affected me and my mom and my sisters. And I think that was probably core to a lot of different things. But if I was to look at from a sexuality and identity point of view, I didn't necessarily struggle. It was just and I think this is something I think regardless of your sexuality, I think
00:24:58
Speaker
I think there is a point where you go through a point in your teenage years where you're just trying to work out who you are and that could be done with ease or that could be difficulty but I think that is there and often you're doing that completely on your own because maybe you don't want to speak to your parents about it, maybe you haven't got friends at school
00:25:21
Speaker
Although again, I think different now with social media and programs and entertainment and media that are more representative of young queer people. I think maybe hopefully, hopefully, I'm sure they would tell me otherwise, but hopefully it's a little bit easier.
00:25:40
Speaker
But my main kind of issues, I think, as a teenager, one of one of my issues manifested was I had a secret relationship with my best friend at school. And and that mixed with trying to find my identity whilst keeping a relationship secret from everyone and not being able to talk about it really did create a sense of frustration in my head. And I was just really frustrated and took it out of my mom quite a lot.
00:26:07
Speaker
Um, we've moved past it now, but I think it's sometimes, I mean, I'm not, I always say there are no parenting experts, but I think if there was advice I would be able to give to parents of teens.
00:26:22
Speaker
who you may suspect is queer or already come out to you as queer, then they may take their frustrations, I guess like other elements of teenage life. They will take your frustrations out on you and it's just trying to be able to take a step back and ask yourself why and what's going on in their head. And if there's a way that you can help them without being kind of like argumentative back to them, easier said than done, I'm sure.
00:26:47
Speaker
So yeah, that was, it's hard to, without sitting here for two hours going to my 14-8 years, that's kind of a slight overview. I never knew that and I feel like Stu and I have done so many podcasts together and so many chats and this is the first new thing. Yeah, it's not something I've talked about openly that much.
00:27:14
Speaker
I think it's because it was always such a secret. I've always felt... I've always still felt quite ashamed of it, I suppose. Thank you for sharing that with us. And I'm so sorry that that happened to you that you had an abusive situation with your stepfather. That's really tough.
00:27:32
Speaker
that is something that we've covered on the podcast previously. I'll dig out that episode actually and put that in the show notes for anybody that is listening that that resonates with. I'm always interested in those kind of coming out stories and what's gone on before. I've got an episode, it's going to be last week's episode by the time we publish this, with a guy who told me his coming out story, which is
00:28:00
Speaker
absolutely hilarious for all of the pain that he shows. He was very vulnerable about it and talking about what happened at the time. And there is that, in fact, I'll link to it. There is another podcast, which is all about coming out stories. I don't know if you know it. I can't think of it off the top of my head.
00:28:19
Speaker
Is it Susie Ruffles' podcast? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I'll find it. Yeah, Susie's a friend of both of us and she's fantastic. And I think, yeah, for your listeners, especially those who may have teenagers coming out, I think all the different stories that she listens to, all the different people she speaks to and their stories.
00:28:38
Speaker
I think would be really helpful.
Introducing 'The Queer Parent' Book
00:28:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, so let's get on to a little bit about the book. The strap line is everything you need to know from gay to Z, which is brilliant. And it's Z that we're talking about today in terms of Gen Z, although I want to say Gen Z.
00:29:01
Speaker
I'm not old-fashioned like that. But did you know, going back to our earlier conversation, Helen, because not many people do know that, which is why we put it as the title, that Z, Z-E is what we put from gay to Z, is actually a pronoun, is a pronoun that people use. I didn't until I read that section. Yeah, no, I didn't know that. I was reading that section going, oh, okay. I mean, I've learned a lot and I have literally just licked in.
00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah, neither did we till we started researching for the book. So we just felt it was a nice way of showing again, that it's a very wide spectrum. And I'm learning for everyone. But yeah, I love that particular, I don't know about Lottie, but I love that particular chapter of the book, because it is focusing on the next generation and their thoughts and their feelings about becoming parents potentially in the future, which I think is a whole new thing for this generation that previous generations have never
00:29:59
Speaker
kind of had before. I think we put in the book about
00:30:02
Speaker
you know, this is going to be the first generation where they do have aunties coming up to them at weddings going, oh, when are you going to have kids? When are you going to start a family? Whereas the old way was very much like, oh, I'm never, grandmother's going, oh, mother's going, I'm never going to be a grandmother, I'm never going to have grandkids. Like, I think it's totally flipped now. And how that affects the next generation, I think is really interesting and the pressures that then put on them to start families.
00:30:31
Speaker
Totally, completely fascinating. I'm not going to be allowed to see the outcome of that and I'm sorry about that because it does fascinate me. But as we said earlier, it's really exciting for them whilst also feeling potentially quite precarious for them. So this generation of teenagers that are kind of
00:30:54
Speaker
on a pivot, I suppose, between the old way of being a parent or a person in the world and the new way of being a person in the world and potentially a parent. How do we as parents who were raised
00:31:12
Speaker
I mean, I'm quite an old parent of teenagers, so I was raised in the 70s, but a lot of my listeners will be parents who were raised in the 80s. So still a lot of prejudices and judgment and stereotyping going on. How, Lottie, do you have tips on how we should show up?
00:31:33
Speaker
For those teenagers, Stu, you already mentioned if you suspect that your child might be going through something and doesn't want to talk to you about it. How should we relate to our teenagers in a general sense, first of all? We don't know that they're questioning their sexuality or their gender. We just know that it's a topic of conversation in their school and with their friends.
00:32:00
Speaker
I suppose that the advice I'd give would go right back to actually when they're a young child. So I, and sorry if this is now like maybe too late for some of your listeners, but I think, I have a hunch that if you start talking to your children about all sorts of different configurations of family and love when they're tiny. So even, you know, reading
00:32:30
Speaker
Even when they're playing or you're playing with them, you know, let's make these two bears be two dads or two mice be two mums or like, you know, you just normalize it. Or you're playing out a wedding scene and it's two women or it's two men.
00:32:47
Speaker
fill your house with books that feature LGBT characters. There's loads of pitch books. Don't you have a great picture book, Lottie? Yes, thank you. To My Magic Family, published by Puffin. Link below. Yeah. And just every time you're talking, every time you talk about a future, you know, maybe if one day your boyfriend or girlfriend, your husband or wife, you just say that, use that language from the very beginning.
00:33:17
Speaker
so that by the time they get teenage nurse, being queer is so normalised within the family and
00:33:28
Speaker
the potential to be not straight is presented alongside the potential to be straight equally every time you've spoken about anything to do with sex or relationships from such a young age. Maybe that child won't even need to come out because you would have created a space where there's no expectation that they're going to be straight from the beginning. There's an equal expectation that they might be straight or they might be gay or they might be something else in between.
00:33:57
Speaker
So to remove that necessity for a child to have to say, I'm not the thing that you and society are expecting me to be, would be such a huge relief and like not having to come out, just having to be like, oh yeah, I've got a girlfriend or yeah, I fancy this boy or however they might then say it for it to not have to be a big announcement because they're not having to say anything that is going against what they think
00:34:27
Speaker
that you expect of them. So that would be my main piece of advice. If that hasn't happened and if your child is having to kind of come out in a way to say, you know, I am not straight or I'm different or whatever, what would my advice be? I think probably to just judge their
00:34:54
Speaker
mood with it and I think this could be probably really hard but I think my instinct would be to just keep it light and keep it quite like easy and you know it doesn't this doesn't need to be a big bombshell moment you know it's not an episode of EastEnders where you're like wow god what's going on like this is changing our world to just be like great thanks for telling me um is there anyone who you're interested in or like just talking more about it in a sort of
00:35:23
Speaker
you know, keeping your voice light, keeping the conversation moving, taking the weight out of it. I think it's probably like a really kind thing you can do because otherwise, you know, my wife tells me about how she sort of came out to her mum and it became this whole conversation about
00:35:46
Speaker
you know, her mum's very sort of like intellectual and thoughtful and her mum was like, well, why, why do you think you're, you're feeling like this? Where's this come from? What's this about? What do you think it means? You know, and like, oh, no, you don't want to have to answer these questions. You don't know. Like, look, it just is what it is. And that's just like, you don't need to kind of like psychoanalyse it or interrogate it, because it's not a
00:36:14
Speaker
pathology, it's not condition, it's just like, you know. Yeah, well, I suppose there's some element in those questions of can we absolutely be sure here because I'd rather it wasn't the case. Exactly. That's the implication. That's why it's so frustrating. So definitely like,
00:36:30
Speaker
It kind of links into that classic, oh it's just a phase, which is the worst. That's a good point Stu and it's something that I experience in conversations with people of a similar age to me when they've got teenagers in school and they'll talk about what their kids have told them or said to them and then say well you know I just think it's
00:36:54
Speaker
it's a really good thing that they're able to experiment a bit in school, which it is, I don't argue with that. But I do often wonder if, I think one of you might have been used to do so, that if those parents are thinking, yeah, it's just a phase, they're just caught up in it, they're trying things on, it'll probably go away, and there's a hope.
00:37:18
Speaker
that it will go away rather than an acceptance that it is that way right now. It may not be in the future, but right now it is that way and we embrace that. What's your take, Stu, on that and how we as parents who are scared for our kids effectively show up in those conversations? Yeah, I think it's asking yourself, what are you actually scared of?
00:37:44
Speaker
Well, media, as I said that, I thought I needed to caveat that. We're scared of what gets put out in the media.
00:37:50
Speaker
Well, yeah, that is something and I think particularly at the moment around trans conversations and Lottie and I, not the correct kind of spokespeople for talking about, you know, what it's like to have a trans child or what it's like to be trans, but we only support them as fully part of our community and recognize that they're just having a really shit time at the moment. It's kind of an understatement of the year. And I think it's just trying to ask yourself,
00:38:22
Speaker
What are you scared of? I think there's probably still a hangover on that sense of particularly because of the conversation around trans topics and also, let's face it, everything is not happy go lucky at the moment for the queer community, especially outside of the UK, especially outside of London and major cities.
00:38:45
Speaker
And so I do think actually it is quite valid to feel worried for your children because they're not going to be living the life that you feel that the mainstream heteronormative people live and that, you know, there are going to be issues that they face. It's not the easiest choice. No, it's not. And I do think that it's just
00:39:12
Speaker
It's you can be worried because I think isn't that being a part of a parent doesn't matter what choices they make. You're always going to be worried. You're going to be worried if they drive a car. You're going to be worried if they go to a university away from you. You're going to be worried if they
00:39:26
Speaker
you know, go on a hike up a mountain, you're always going to be worried about them. So let yourself have those worries. But don't let it don't let yourself become one of the worries to them, if that makes sense. Don't let you become, you know, they're gonna have they are going to have battles through society, they are going to have to deal with certain things. Don't let you become one of those. It's like try and be as open minded and and
Supportive Parenting for Diverse Identities
00:39:54
Speaker
you know, and loving, just love them, you know, and no matter, let them know that you love them, no matter whatever they feel they identify as, you will be there for them. And I think it goes back to what I love what Lottie says in the sense of that sense of just starting very early and just making sure that you talk about
00:40:18
Speaker
different types of families, different ways, configurations of relationships, because even if this is the thing I think is also really important, we talk a lot about, you know, what if your child is queer, or how to deal with your child being queer, but
00:40:32
Speaker
Even if your child is not queer, like how amazing to give them the emotional intelligence and capability of being understanding, because even if they're not, I can 100% tell you your child will live in a world where they have a friend or a coworker or somebody who is queer in their life. And how amazing would it be to feel that you've raised a child that is welcoming and supportive of that person?
00:40:57
Speaker
and can help them through something. I just feel that we always get so focused on what if our child is, but it's the world we live in and they are going to encounter somebody queer along the way. Sorry, I just wanted to share a sweet anecdote of a neighbour friend of mine who has two teenage
00:41:21
Speaker
girls. And she's been doing what I suggested as good advice, you know, from when they were young presenting gay, straight as equal potentials for their future. And even now she says they're like 16 and 18. And she's always like, Oh, you know, if you meet a girl or a boy, and to the point that the girls are both straight, and they're like, Mum,
00:41:41
Speaker
Honestly, we're straight. For goodness sake, you can stop saying all bells right now because we are straight and we've told you. So it's like they're having to come out as straight to their well-meaning parent, which I just think is really sweet and lovely. I think there's another hangover, isn't there, within that as well, where it's like people maybe don't do that because there is this fear that you're going to turn a child gay. And I think there's a lot of that with like, you're going to turn a child gay by presenting them with this option.
00:42:11
Speaker
And it's like, well, gay people presented very much had the idea of heterosexuality round down their throat, but it hasn't made them straight. It doesn't work like that. You can't make somebody gay. And I think that's another thing that I think people get scared of in their head, that by talking about, oh, who do you like at school? Or it becomes like, oh, you're actually trying to force them into being something, but you're
00:42:40
Speaker
never going to force them into that. It's going to be whatever they are going to be. And nothing you say is going to do that. So the only thing you can do is make them feel comfortable in their skin. Yeah. Well, what you're saying there brings me to what effectively everything you've both said.
00:42:58
Speaker
I've got in my head the only way to be okay with any of it and everything else that teenagers are going through is to be curious and it's one of the themes that comes up time and time again when I speak to parents who are struggling is
00:43:16
Speaker
We as parents have to start to step away from, well, actually we need to do it from the beginning. I didn't because I didn't know any better and I'm tackling it now, which is, it's a bit harder actually. It's quite hard to get an in with teenagers who haven't grown up with that early messaging because for one thing, there weren't books when my kids were three and four years old. But I appreciate, I'm feeling the need to defend myself there, which that's not what this is about.
00:43:46
Speaker
What parents of teenagers find really hard is stepping away enough and being hands off enough to let kids explore who they are and feel trusted to do that. Because as parents, we're fixers. From the day they're born, we're there to make sure, to tell them what to do to make sure that they're safe and okay and happy. And we are
00:44:11
Speaker
it's ingrained in us by the time we get to teenagers that we fix them. And actually, once they get to adolescence, they don't want fixing. And if they talk to us at all, it's to have someone non judgmental to sound off at. So when we start with, oh, are you sure? And how did you arrive at that conclusion and tell me what's going on?
00:44:31
Speaker
they're immediately going to stop trusting us and back away and tell us even less. So the sense I'm getting from what you're saying about how to speak to teenagers who are maybe talking to us about their gender and sexuality is to keep our own feelings to ourselves and in check if they are
00:44:55
Speaker
which goes against everything I know as a therapist. We have to model feelings, but keep our stereotyped fears, let's say, to ourselves and go away and see a therapist or talk to a friend about that or just bracket those because they belong to us and not put them on our kids and just ask questions about how they feel.
00:45:21
Speaker
which is a challenge for parents, but it's been a very, I've called it death by a thousand cuts for me. It's been a very long learning curve. And my daughter has totally taken me there. She's been like, Mum, I don't want to hear about your feelings on this. And I'm not going to tell you if you keep telling me what you think I should do about my problems. I just want a sounding board and a safe space. Right. That's such great advice. I'm going to try and remember that. Yeah.
00:45:47
Speaker
Well, we need to do it with our kids, with our little kids as well. And there's a great parent on, she's psychotherapist on Instagram, probably know Anna Martha, who talks about this and how to model and be there for our kids whilst holding very, very difficult emotions that we cannot put on them. So if you've got younger children, Anna is a link to Anna as well. She's a great person to follow. Great. But it becomes even more imperative when they're teenagers.
00:46:15
Speaker
I think it's important on the flip side, you know, as a parent, and as well, and an advice I'd give to people as well is because I think there's a lot to deal with. And you've just said it, everything you just said there, Helen, I think it's also like, allow yourself like with many other aspects of parenting, like you're gonna get it wrong. At some point, you're gonna say the wrong thing, you're gonna do the wrong thing, because that's what parents do is we're not
00:46:42
Speaker
there is no such thing as a perfect parent. And there is no such there is no such thing as being a perfect parent to a queer child, there will be certain things that you you get wrong. Particularly because as you say, like because of the generational, you know, impacts on the way we look at things, the way we used to dealing with things. And it's like, don't, it's almost like I just want to say, like, don't beat yourself up.
00:47:09
Speaker
for maybe going, oh, I shouldn't have said that to my daughter for, you know, if she's come out to me or something like that. It's like, well, you know what you did, but you can always, like most things, you can rectify it and go back and have a conversation. But it's like, don't be yourself off about it, because it's not an easy, like with many things in parenting, it's just not easy. And there's no way you're going to get it right all the time.
00:47:31
Speaker
Where's the learning curve, isn't it? And if we look at all of those incidences as opportunities to learn and try not to spend too much time dwelling on how bad we feel about the wrong things that we did, then we can't. I mean, it is like that. I remember it being like that with little kids as well. All parents know it's like that. You're constantly worried that you got something wrong and it doesn't end. And I'm told it doesn't end even once they're adults and leave home.
00:47:59
Speaker
Oh God. Because it is. You say, you say stuff, oh, that's how I'm going to deal with that situation. I'm going to deal with that situation that way. This is how we're going to do it. The situation happens and you're like, oh, I did not handle it in a way I wanted to.
00:48:13
Speaker
No, it's very much like that. I want to go back to the book and get you to just tell us a little bit about what, maybe Lottie, do you have a favourite chapter in the book?
Insights into Queer Parenting and Relationships
00:48:26
Speaker
You can tell us about that and then tell us Stu where we can find the book and what you hope to achieve with it.
00:48:35
Speaker
So I don't know if I can think of a favorite chapter really. Writing the whole book was just such a joy and so interesting to explore so many different people's experiences of becoming or trying to become parents. For me, probably one of the most cathartic to write was about my IVF journey and
00:49:04
Speaker
how I kind of came through that and long story short didn't work for me whereas obviously it did for my wife or I wouldn't be a parent at all. And I think exploring that and talking to other people about
00:49:17
Speaker
that side of things was really interesting. But I think for people listening that maybe aren't queer parents that are thinking, well, why would I buy this book? I think it's going to answer a lot of questions for you that you might feel like you didn't want to ask someone directly. So, for example, you know, you might have questions about
00:49:40
Speaker
the dynamic between two women and the donor they've used for their child but you might feel awkward sort of bringing it up at the school gate likewise you might know somebody that's used a surrogate and you might not know the language that you should use or how you should talk to them about it. All of those kind of things will be addressed or answered for you in the book and I think
00:50:02
Speaker
as well as finding all of the ways in which parenting is similar. It's the great democratizer, right? If you're changing a nappy, you're changing a nappy. If you're arguing with a teenager, you're arguing with a teenager, whether you're
00:50:13
Speaker
LGBTQ plus or straight, you know, that's the, the experience is the same. But I think you might be interested in the ways in which it's different. So the things that we're coming up against every day as queer parents that you just don't come up against, you know, the, the absolute like plethora of heterosexuality in parenting, the pushing of motherhood as the only
00:50:38
Speaker
kind of valid parenting option in terms of like, mummy and baby groups, mother and, you know, WhatsApp groups that are for mums, all of those things, you know, when you are a straight mum or a straight dad, you probably don't think of the impact that that can have and how it can make a queer parent feel excluded. So I think, you know, we cover so much, we go into education, we talk about mental health. As we discussed, we talk about the next generation of
00:51:08
Speaker
of kids who were growing up maybe a little bit more aware of queerness and their options as parents as they get older, surrogacy, IVF, adoption, fostering.
00:51:21
Speaker
labor, not only the physical act of labor, but also emotional labor and how that works. I think that's something that I found that straight people find very interesting about same sex relationships is who does what, they're really interested to know how you divide the kind of the labor of the day when there's not when there's not sort of a historic
00:51:46
Speaker
expectation of who should do what. That's something that's addressed in the book that I think you'd find really interesting. So there's loads to get into. It will make you a better ally. It will make you a better friend. It will make you a better person. So you should just buy it.
00:52:00
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And that is so true because whilst I rail against the fact that the domestic load is mostly on me, I've colluded in it all the way along. My mother colluded in it and taught me to and I'm probably doing the same with my kids.
00:52:16
Speaker
So yeah, you're right that that is always a question that's on the mind and it shouldn't be, should it? Because it's just two people sharing a house. Right. And that's the joy of being in a queer relationship is that you are then just coming to everything as two people rather than a, you know,
00:52:34
Speaker
a man and everything that comes with being a man and a woman and everything that comes with being a woman. I think your listeners would hopefully find it interesting. Yeah, definitely. Well, it's going to be a reference book on my therapy shelf because I will have clients who have issues with this as well, I'm sure, and it will be helpful for me there. Stu, do you want to have your say on the best bit of the book for you and tell us where it can be found?
00:53:04
Speaker
I think Lottie's covered that pretty well. I think I agree with Lottie on all the different things. I think one thing to note about the book and Lottie mentioned about how interesting and joyful she found writing it and the same with me
00:53:22
Speaker
is that Lottie and I very much, we're not experts. And in the grand scheme of parenting as well, we're very new to this, you know, my oldest is now seven, Lottie's is five, in the sense of, so we're nowhere near teenage years or tween years or anything. So we are new to parenting. And we're new to discovering the different ways that queer people have children. And we very much wanted to take our readers
00:53:50
Speaker
on a journey with us to discover all these different elements of what it means to be a queer parent. That's something I really enjoyed finding out. I'm a dad via adoption, so I knew nothing about surrogacy and I knew nothing about Lottie's own journey via IUI and IVF as well.
00:54:11
Speaker
We didn't know anything really about trans parenting and everything that that involves co-parenting, which we both found fascinating and how people do go into co-parenting situations and solo parenting as well. There's a lot in there that I think regardless of how you've become a parent or your identity or sexuality, I think hopefully you will find interesting and informative because we certainly did writing it and we learned a lot.
00:54:40
Speaker
And it is available everywhere. It should be. Anyway, it's available everywhere online. You can get it on Amazon. There's a link on Amazon. Although if you don't want to feed into the corporate monster that is Amazon, there's a lot of independent bookshops as well that sell it online if you just give it a good Google.
Podcast Reflections and Listener Engagement
00:54:59
Speaker
And you can follow us as well. So we are at From Gay to Z. That is our Instagram channel. And we have links on there as well.
00:55:08
Speaker
Brilliant. I will put all of that and links to where you can get the book in the show notes. Lottie, Stu, it's been a really fascinating conversation. Thank you. I could continue for longer, but we're out of time. So I'm going to say goodbye and thank you.
00:55:24
Speaker
I've loved it. Thank you, Helen. Yeah, it's really, really nice to talk about teenagers, actually. I think because of the way Stu and I are in our parenting, you know, to younger children, often what we talk about is the younger years, and it's been really nice to reflect on.
00:55:40
Speaker
what it might be like in a few years time, so yeah, we will definitely be coming knocking at your podcast door when we're at that stage, I'm sure. Get ready Stu, because Seven is when it all started to kick off here. I'm noticing it already. She's definitely hormonal in different ways, she's definitely, yeah, I can tell it already, so I'm holding on for dear life.
00:56:09
Speaker
Yeah, it's a roller coaster, but it's wonderful. And as I've extolled many times on this podcast, it's my favorite bit of parenting. You've got lots to look forward to. Amazing. Oh, that's so great. Well, thanks so much for having us, Helen. Thank you.
00:56:27
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening. I really do appreciate it. Thank you too to everyone who's already rated and reviewed the podcast. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Amazon, it would mean the world to me if you could leave a review. It really helps get the word out, as well as making me very happy to read what you have to say. If this episode strikes a chord for you, please share it with anyone else you know who might be in the same boat.
00:56:52
Speaker
and hit subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. If you have a story or a suggestion for something you'd like to see covered on the podcast, you can email me at teenagekickspodcast at gmail.com or message me on Instagram. I'm, I am Helen Wills. I love hearing from all my listeners. It really makes a difference to me on this journey. See you next week when I'll be chatting to another brilliant guest about the highs and lows of parenting teens. Bye for now.