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Design, Excellence, and Joy in Art with Nate Knobloch
24 Plays1 year ago
In this episode I speak with my friend Nate Knobloch. We discuss his work as a graphic designer, his recent work in illustration, and how we honor God through excellence, and are invited by Him to joyfully play with the gifts He's given us as artists and followers of Christ.
Nate works for as a Graphic Designer for Boileau & Co., and his designs can be seen at he and his wife's Etsy shop Engrained.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
00:00:02
Speaker
I'm John, the host.
00:00:03
Speaker
Today we're going to invite back on my friend Nate Knoblock.
00:00:07
Speaker
He's going to talk to us about his work as a graphic designer, what artistry there is in that, some of his...
00:00:16
Speaker
I was going to use the word attempts, that's the wrong word.
00:00:18
Speaker
His recent work, starting out doing some illustration and exploring that art form.
00:00:25
Speaker
And then we're also just going to talk generally about excellence in art, about joy in art, the way that we're enabled to just play and experiment and try different things.
00:00:36
Speaker
And as always, how we can see God and all of that.
00:00:39
Speaker
It's a super fun episode.
00:00:41
Speaker
I had a lot of fun chatting with him and we talked about a lot of really rich things.
00:00:44
Speaker
So I'm super excited.
00:00:46
Speaker
Thanks for joining us.
00:00:47
Speaker
So, how are you doing?
00:00:52
Speaker
Doing pretty good.
00:00:53
Speaker
Good.
00:00:54
Speaker
How's
Life Updates: Marriage and Parenthood
00:00:55
Speaker
life?
00:00:55
Speaker
What's new since it's, is it, it's, no, it hasn't been a year yet since we had you on the podcast.
00:01:00
Speaker
When did you start the podcast?
00:01:01
Speaker
June-ish, I think.
00:01:03
Speaker
Okay.
00:01:03
Speaker
So, I mean, we're getting like kind of close.
00:01:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:07
Speaker
What episode?
00:01:08
Speaker
You guys were the second one.
00:01:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:11
Speaker
What number are you up to now?
00:01:13
Speaker
This one will be 22.
00:01:15
Speaker
So it's been 20 episodes since you were on.
00:01:17
Speaker
Sweet.
00:01:18
Speaker
That's fun.
00:01:19
Speaker
That's like my favorite number.
00:01:20
Speaker
22?
00:01:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:23
Speaker
We got you on your favorite number.
00:01:24
Speaker
It was my basketball jersey number for a while.
00:01:29
Speaker
Okay.
00:01:30
Speaker
And for the hackers out there, it may be in some of my passwords.
00:01:38
Speaker
And knowing's half the hacking.
00:01:41
Speaker
It is.
00:01:42
Speaker
Evil is the other half.
00:01:44
Speaker
Knowing and then evil.
00:01:49
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, I don't know.
00:01:50
Speaker
How's life?
00:01:51
Speaker
Are you doing anything new since we talked on the podcast last?
Theater Production and Creative Exploration
00:01:56
Speaker
Yeah, so...
00:02:00
Speaker
I think last time we talked, we talked in retrospect.
00:02:04
Speaker
I was with my wife, Ellie, on the show, and we talked about the play that we had done, the two-person play.
00:02:11
Speaker
And now we're in rehearsal for the sequel to that play.
00:02:15
Speaker
Oh, that's fun.
00:02:16
Speaker
And so that's fun.
00:02:17
Speaker
And this time it's a four-person play.
00:02:19
Speaker
We're a married couple now.
00:02:21
Speaker
We done got married at the end of the last show, and now we're married, and our mothers are in it now.
00:02:26
Speaker
That's fun.
00:02:27
Speaker
Is it weird inviting two other people into your vibe?
00:02:31
Speaker
you know they're they're really nice other people so we were excited to have them and so it seems like a nice evolution that's cool yeah nice that's fun yeah so doing that i may have had a son since i was on last so that was significant you're not sure though you don't know if you have a son
00:02:52
Speaker
He pops in and out.
00:02:53
Speaker
I don't know if he's just renting or if he belongs to me or not.
00:02:59
Speaker
He lives here in the summer and then he flies to the south for winter.
00:03:03
Speaker
Yeah, something like that.
00:03:07
Speaker
He's small enough to hitch a ride on birds.
00:03:11
Speaker
That's storks, man.
00:03:12
Speaker
That's right.
00:03:13
Speaker
That's how he came.
00:03:14
Speaker
That's how he comes and goes.
00:03:16
Speaker
But yeah, mid-June we had Baron.
00:03:19
Speaker
Nice.
00:03:20
Speaker
So that's been...
00:03:22
Speaker
You know, just a little thing added.
00:03:24
Speaker
Yeah, just a small thing.
00:03:25
Speaker
Just a little thing.
00:03:26
Speaker
Not huge.
00:03:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:28
Speaker
That's been fun, though, and a cool experience.
00:03:30
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:03:31
Speaker
Cool.
00:03:31
Speaker
So I wanted to have you on because of art.
00:03:37
Speaker
That's dumb.
00:03:37
Speaker
I want everybody on because of art.
Journey to Graphic Design: From Childhood to College
00:03:40
Speaker
But we didn't really talk specifically about what you do for art when we had you on last.
00:03:47
Speaker
We kind of were talking broadly about...
00:03:50
Speaker
Art and faith.
00:03:51
Speaker
Concepts.
00:03:51
Speaker
Yeah, we were concepting.
00:03:55
Speaker
This is our concepting sound effects.
00:04:00
Speaker
I've made a concept.
00:04:03
Speaker
We could make a concept album called Concepting, where it's just... Anyways.
00:04:13
Speaker
We have the mics.
00:04:14
Speaker
We do it.
00:04:14
Speaker
We can do anything.
00:04:15
Speaker
We have the technology.
00:04:18
Speaker
But so for your work, you do graphic design.
00:04:21
Speaker
Yep.
00:04:23
Speaker
And we've never actually talked about this.
00:04:25
Speaker
What was it?
00:04:27
Speaker
Why do you do that?
00:04:28
Speaker
What got you into graphic design?
00:04:29
Speaker
Why do that?
00:04:30
Speaker
Why would you even do that?
00:04:34
Speaker
That's what I asked accountants.
00:04:38
Speaker
Yeah, that's a nice question.
00:04:42
Speaker
So since I was a little kid, I was always like the liking to make stuff kid.
00:04:49
Speaker
My mom would buy me reams of paper just because I could then make stuff out of paper.
00:04:55
Speaker
And I just felt like...
00:04:57
Speaker
can make pretty much anything out of paper i didn't do origami i wasn't like fancy but if i had tape and paper like if you just make strips of paper and taper together this is rope now and so i made like stuffed animals out of paper stuffed with paper and just like kind of
00:05:19
Speaker
staple the edges and stuff it with paper and staple it down and give it as gifts to my family.
00:05:25
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:05:28
Speaker
So yeah, so I was always interested in like drawing and crafts and things like that.
00:05:35
Speaker
You know, Microsoft Paint felt like I was pretty good at that.
00:05:39
Speaker
You know, at the time it was like,
00:05:41
Speaker
This is very impressive, is it not?
00:05:45
Speaker
I put my brother's face on Batman's body in paint.
00:05:50
Speaker
Boom.
00:05:52
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:05:54
Speaker
And so...
00:05:56
Speaker
I heard about the field of graphic design.
00:06:00
Speaker
I'm like, this could be a way that I could do art stuff and make money.
00:06:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:06
Speaker
Because usually those things don't go together well.
00:06:09
Speaker
They don't.
00:06:10
Speaker
No.
00:06:11
Speaker
No.
00:06:13
Speaker
So I was homeschooled.
00:06:15
Speaker
And so I feel like that was very helpful in my parents, like encouraging me in what I was naturally interested in with the arts stuff.
00:06:28
Speaker
And so...
00:06:30
Speaker
In my senior year, I signed up to go to Kent Skill Trade Center because they had a graphic design class there.
00:06:38
Speaker
Oh, nice.
00:06:39
Speaker
And so this was like my first time getting on a school bus and going away in the morning.
00:06:46
Speaker
And you're like, am I going to get shoved into a locker?
00:06:48
Speaker
I was kind of hoping I would be.
00:06:52
Speaker
Rite of passage.
00:06:53
Speaker
I wanted to know if I could handle a fight.
00:06:55
Speaker
And I'm like, okay, going into a school.
00:06:58
Speaker
This is where fights happen.
00:07:00
Speaker
There's going to be a whole crowd of kids surrounding me telling me to fight.
00:07:06
Speaker
And I'll only do it to protect that other kid or if they swung first.
00:07:11
Speaker
But it never happened.
00:07:12
Speaker
Bummer.
00:07:13
Speaker
It was kind of a waste of time.
00:07:15
Speaker
Why did you even go?
00:07:16
Speaker
What good did it do?
00:07:19
Speaker
My nose is still like this.
00:07:20
Speaker
I was hoping they could punch it in a little more.
00:07:24
Speaker
Rapid plastic surgery.
00:07:27
Speaker
But that was a good experience, though.
00:07:30
Speaker
Even though it was in public school?
00:07:34
Speaker
I know.
00:07:35
Speaker
Shocker.
00:07:35
Speaker
I know.
00:07:37
Speaker
There are other kids there more than my siblings.
00:07:40
Speaker
Oh, no.
00:07:41
Speaker
They're around my age.
00:07:42
Speaker
The horror.
00:07:44
Speaker
No, I'd played, like, homeschool basketball until now.
00:07:47
Speaker
So I'd seen kids before.
00:07:50
Speaker
Just worry.
00:07:53
Speaker
You're like, who are these tiny people?
00:07:55
Speaker
They're my size.
00:08:00
Speaker
Exactly.
00:08:02
Speaker
But I took the first half of the year was a Photoshop class, and I'd never done Photoshop before, so I was learning the things there.
00:08:13
Speaker
And then the second half was an illustrator class, and so that's another program.
00:08:18
Speaker
I was like, ah, wow.
00:08:19
Speaker
Why does this program does not work well at all?
00:08:22
Speaker
It's a different program doing different things.
00:08:24
Speaker
So I learned that.
00:08:24
Speaker
I was like, okay.
00:08:27
Speaker
But I found that I enjoyed it and was good at it.
00:08:32
Speaker
And so it was in my senior year then, and so trying to figure out college.
00:08:39
Speaker
And I'd be the first one in my family to go to college.
00:08:42
Speaker
And my parents felt like, you are an unhealthy child.
00:08:46
Speaker
You need to stay on our insurance, so you should go to college.
00:08:55
Speaker
That was the main reason.
00:09:03
Speaker
And so I was looking around at the Christian colleges in the area because, you know, Christian, go to a Christian college.
00:09:13
Speaker
That'd be a good, safe, good as you do thing.
00:09:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:19
Speaker
And so looked at, there's a lot of them in the area and I applied to some and I got in, but like none of them really had like a graphic design degree.
00:09:30
Speaker
And so it's like, okay, well maybe I could do something adjacent that I'm interested in like children's literature.
00:09:39
Speaker
Cause I'd always like the idea of like writing, illustrating like children's books kind of thing.
00:09:44
Speaker
But the college is expensive.
00:09:49
Speaker
Even the Christians want money.
00:09:54
Speaker
Man is out there.
00:09:55
Speaker
We know it can happen.
00:09:56
Speaker
But yet they want money.
00:09:57
Speaker
They just scratch out any of the greed Bible verses.
00:10:05
Speaker
So, but my, my, my, it was interesting because my mom had felt that she, that, that like, that God had indicated to her that I was going to be able to get through college without debt, but it seemed like that was,
00:10:20
Speaker
That wasn't probably going to happen.
00:10:21
Speaker
We're probably going to have to take out loans to go to one of these Christian colleges.
00:10:27
Speaker
And so I was in the process of deciding where to go.
00:10:31
Speaker
And then one day at the Kent Skill Center, a guy came in from Baker College in Muskegon to tell about Baker.
00:10:42
Speaker
And I'd never heard of Baker before.
00:10:46
Speaker
And he was telling us that they have a graphic design major.
00:10:51
Speaker
And so we look into that and apply.
00:10:59
Speaker
And they didn't even need any grades to apply.
00:11:05
Speaker
I got accepted immediately.
00:11:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:09
Speaker
We don't care if you're dumb as a rocks, as long as you can drag a mouse in a straight line, we want you.
00:11:15
Speaker
Yep.
00:11:16
Speaker
And, and so we start getting into this process of checking them out and turns out it's not going to be very expensive.
00:11:24
Speaker
And cause I had a pretty good ACT score, not like amazing.
00:11:30
Speaker
I got like a half off scholarship and, um,
00:11:34
Speaker
on this already kind of cheaper school.
00:11:37
Speaker
And then my dad's work was going to be able to pay for a bit of the rest of it.
00:11:41
Speaker
So there really wasn't going to be too much for us to pay for.
00:11:44
Speaker
And they had a graphic design
Career Reflections at the Grand Rapids Symphony
00:11:47
Speaker
major.
00:11:47
Speaker
And so I went there then and...
00:11:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:52
Speaker
So, so went there and that was an interesting experience, like from being homeschooled and it's like, ah, I don't know how I stack up.
00:12:00
Speaker
How did my education do?
00:12:02
Speaker
Did my parents do well?
00:12:03
Speaker
Did they do well?
00:12:04
Speaker
Or was I just locked in a basement forever?
00:12:07
Speaker
I didn't realize it.
00:12:10
Speaker
No, my parents are great.
00:12:11
Speaker
They're awesome.
00:12:12
Speaker
Um,
00:12:13
Speaker
But yeah, it was fine.
00:12:15
Speaker
I did fine.
00:12:16
Speaker
And so I did graphic design there and I learned and got better.
00:12:21
Speaker
And yeah, really, really enjoyed that.
00:12:25
Speaker
And so then I got into the field.
00:12:28
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:12:30
Speaker
So you used to work at the GR Symphony.
00:12:32
Speaker
Was that your first design job or did you have something before that?
00:12:35
Speaker
I had kind of a part-time job doing some design things.
00:12:40
Speaker
The position was kind of made for me at a place.
00:12:43
Speaker
And most of the things I did weren't really needed.
00:12:48
Speaker
Or I didn't see the final light of day, it seemed.
00:12:51
Speaker
And so it was this eccentric rich owner of the company hired me.
00:12:57
Speaker
And it was kind of a weird experience.
00:12:59
Speaker
But I got some experience, though.
00:13:02
Speaker
And so that was good.
00:13:05
Speaker
Um, but, but so I got that.
00:13:09
Speaker
And, and then after I graduated, um, I started working at a summer camp and then I went, I looked for some jobs, but I ended up going back to my old retail job.
00:13:21
Speaker
And in those months, it's like, maybe, maybe I'll never design because I'm just not getting
00:13:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:27
Speaker
You'll just be a Walmart clerk forever.
00:13:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:31
Speaker
No, Gordon Food Service.
00:13:33
Speaker
A little higher class than that.
00:13:40
Speaker
But yeah, I did get then a job at the Grand Rapids Symphony.
00:13:45
Speaker
And it was really cool because one of my projects in my portfolio was a college college.
00:13:53
Speaker
project where you had to like redesign an event and what are my in my partner's event was the summer Grand Rapids Symphony series picnic pops and so like I was able to show the Grand Rapids Symphony when I interviewed look at I've already designed for you virtually this is what I've done and I did it better
00:14:14
Speaker
And a couple of years later, I got to use that design for like that event.
00:14:19
Speaker
So it was like, that was kind of an emotional experience.
00:14:22
Speaker
I'm like looking at the printed poster that has like elements.
00:14:26
Speaker
I'd made it better, you know, since school, a little bit better.
00:14:30
Speaker
But like emotional, like, oh.
00:14:32
Speaker
Look at what you've done, God, and stuff.
00:14:36
Speaker
And like the whole thing, like this God getting me to the place of getting to go to school and like leading me through the desires and skills that he put me in.
00:14:49
Speaker
Just very beautiful to see.
00:14:51
Speaker
to see how he does that, like how he put, he can put skills and yeah, desires into your heart.
00:14:57
Speaker
And then along the road, you're like, I don't know what I'm going to do with this or how this is going to work out.
00:15:02
Speaker
But then he like finds a way.
00:15:04
Speaker
That's super cool.
00:15:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:06
Speaker
And, uh, now I work at a, uh, marketing like PR and firm and, um, in Holland and that's really nice.
00:15:15
Speaker
That is cool.
00:15:15
Speaker
You guys just won an award recently for something that you did.
00:15:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:20
Speaker
I don't know how many other people applied for that award.
00:15:23
Speaker
But you still won an award.
00:15:26
Speaker
We got second.
00:15:29
Speaker
That was very satisfying, though.
00:15:32
Speaker
It was for a website, and I designed illustrations for the website, and it was like...
00:15:41
Speaker
um the first things that i had like illustrated for like for like my work like that and my my work's really nice in that they encourage professional development and they even like will pay for like courses yeah and so they paid for a couple illustrating courses for me because most of what i do is design but i like have a passion for illustrating but i don't have a ton of experience in it but they
00:16:06
Speaker
Paid for a couple of courses and then like gave me the opportunity to use it, which is really cool.
00:16:12
Speaker
Where do you feel like so because now shifting to the illustrating thing a little bit, because you've been dabbling in that a lot the last year through your job and then outside your job.
00:16:21
Speaker
I think we even mentioned last time on the podcast that you and Ellie were working on a book together.
Passion for Illustration and Influences
00:16:26
Speaker
You're illustrating that.
00:16:27
Speaker
Which I'm excited for.
00:16:28
Speaker
I, I, you know, I've seen some of the stuff you've done and it's been cool to see you kind of stretch your legs in that.
00:16:34
Speaker
What, where do you think that passion for illustrating specifically started?
00:16:43
Speaker
You know, I think a big influence for me was Dr. Seuss.
00:16:50
Speaker
His books were so full of imagination.
00:16:55
Speaker
And you could like see in the illustrations like how they did it.
00:16:59
Speaker
There were line drawings and colors and usually only like a few different colors on the page that were just reused.
00:17:07
Speaker
And it's like, I can see this.
00:17:08
Speaker
And it's like, I can almost like, I could imagine replicating something like this, but he had such imagination.
00:17:15
Speaker
And that is something that I like about illustration is that it can put a little window, if you will, into like,
00:17:26
Speaker
into that, the edge of reality that helps you see that there's more to our, our current things that we're seeing in this world.
00:17:36
Speaker
But that reality is, is bigger.
00:17:39
Speaker
They're like, you know, there's a spiritual realm and, and there's, yeah, there's more out there.
00:17:45
Speaker
And even in the world that we have, there's wonder, um,
00:17:48
Speaker
implanted into the world and sometimes it takes the the focus of illustration to bring that out um so so those are things that i really resonate with about it yeah that's awesome um
00:18:06
Speaker
What is it like, and this is a question both just with illustrating as you've been working on that and then graphic design, a lot of the work that you do doesn't necessarily start with you.
00:18:19
Speaker
It like comes to you at a certain point and then you pick it up and you create it.
00:18:23
Speaker
Right.
Creative Process and Spirituality
00:18:25
Speaker
We've done that before on projects.
00:18:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:27
Speaker
What is it, what's it like as a,
00:18:31
Speaker
creative being handed something where it's either somebody else's creation or something somebody else just needs and then but they need something else from you is it is it cool to have a jumping off point is it restricting what is that experience like i'd say it's largely freeing of course it can depend on
00:18:57
Speaker
On say, if you're given a project, like at work, we have writers who develop what this postcard has to be, and they write up all the words for it, and then we just have to bring it into being, you know?
00:19:10
Speaker
Right.
00:19:11
Speaker
But if there's like a ton of words that have to go in a little space, that's like...
00:19:16
Speaker
How am I going to do this?
00:19:18
Speaker
And that can be a little frustrating.
00:19:20
Speaker
We have a little novel here that we need on this postcard.
00:19:22
Speaker
Because it's very emotionally moving.
00:19:24
Speaker
So design it well.
00:19:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:26
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:19:27
Speaker
But there's still a challenge to that.
00:19:29
Speaker
So that's still engaging.
00:19:31
Speaker
But it's nice to have, usually to have that jumping off point where someone has come up with a need and then, okay, this has to get done.
00:19:41
Speaker
And now I just have to think about how can this be done?
00:19:46
Speaker
And it's actually a really cool experience to kind of not have an idea of what to do.
00:19:54
Speaker
And it's like, I don't know.
00:19:55
Speaker
I don't know how I'm going to do this.
00:19:57
Speaker
I just don't know how this should be.
00:20:00
Speaker
And then I found like almost without fail that if I stop and pray to God to help him, to have him help me give, give me an idea that I'll pretty much always get an idea.
00:20:14
Speaker
And it's like the solution.
00:20:16
Speaker
the solution comes to being and and it's been a really cool like
00:20:23
Speaker
personal like like interaction with god and i know that there's other things that like god that like impacts where we get inspiration right to like what we're what we're looking at what we're taking in and so in that way it's really important that like we're taking in the kinds of things that we want to put out like you know good in good out nasty and nasty out but i have really felt like god has like answered
00:20:52
Speaker
answer my prayers and then like something appears in my head and I can like see it and like rearrange it maybe in my head.
00:21:00
Speaker
Okay.
00:21:00
Speaker
That will work sort of thing.
00:21:02
Speaker
Um, so that's cool.
00:21:04
Speaker
That's super cool.
00:21:05
Speaker
Do you feel like that kind of engagement with God is something that you do with pretty much every project or do you feel like it's specific ones where it's like, this is one where I've got to tap into God and,
00:21:15
Speaker
It usually feels like the latter.
00:21:18
Speaker
Maybe it should probably be all of them.
00:21:21
Speaker
But some of them are like, oh, yeah, this is just simple.
00:21:23
Speaker
I know what to do for this, basically.
00:21:26
Speaker
Which, I mean, maybe it's kind of fair that we are set up with tools and experience.
00:21:31
Speaker
Okay, we just kind of know how to do this or it's pretty straightforward.
00:21:34
Speaker
But sometimes I like...
00:21:37
Speaker
don't think of it as soon or as often as I should.
00:21:40
Speaker
Oh, wait, what about that thing that always works?
00:21:43
Speaker
I could try that.
Spirituality in Creativity and Artistic Vision
00:21:47
Speaker
But along that lines of God and design, it's kind of interesting that when you're designing, I don't know if you feel this way about when you're writing or doing your art, even acting, that it can feel like
00:22:05
Speaker
There's already like an essential made version of this thing out there.
00:22:12
Speaker
And I'm trying to...
00:22:15
Speaker
to align my pixels to meet that thing that already exists.
00:22:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:22
Speaker
And that may be overstating it.
00:22:24
Speaker
There's probably more grace involved of it.
00:22:27
Speaker
It doesn't have to be just like this or that, but it's like, no, it would be best if like these things were aligned because it's good for things to be aligned here or,
00:22:38
Speaker
Are there to be a little sploosh of creativity on this side here?
00:22:41
Speaker
Because that would be good for that to be.
00:22:43
Speaker
So it feels like you're tapping into what's like the platonic good of this design.
00:22:49
Speaker
No, I definitely think that's true.
00:22:51
Speaker
I've definitely felt that with characters where it's like I feel like I'm trying to find a specific...
00:22:58
Speaker
thing in the character that I know is real.
00:23:00
Speaker
I've had that for sure with when I did Mary Poppins and Hamlet.
00:23:04
Speaker
I know both those characters.
00:23:05
Speaker
It was like there was some essential thing that I was aiming for that was a little bit different than what had been done before, but I was like, it feels like this is the thing about this character.
00:23:15
Speaker
And I feel like...
00:23:17
Speaker
think it was michelangelo there's some sculptor who's like i'm not creating it i'm really just freeing the person from this rock they're already in there yeah exactly i'm just i'm just chipping away the excess and getting them out so i feel like that is a common i think even among non-christian artists a common experience of
00:23:41
Speaker
There's already a thing that art's supposed to be that I'm striving towards.
00:23:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:46
Speaker
And, you know, there's a perfect version of it out there somewhere that we probably will never meet because we're imperfect.
00:23:52
Speaker
Right.
00:23:52
Speaker
And there's a certain beauty, I think, to the imperfectness of art.
00:23:55
Speaker
But...
00:23:58
Speaker
I definitely think that's true, which is interesting then to think about for artists who are not Christian and even more interesting for artists who are like 0% spiritual who might be completely atheistic and naturalistic.
00:24:14
Speaker
But emotionally, you've got something that you're picturing and striving towards that already seems to be out there outside of yourself that you're trying to get to.
00:24:23
Speaker
So that is an interesting proof, I guess, just about the creative nature of God in that.
00:24:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:31
Speaker
And interesting that...
00:24:33
Speaker
with your example of like your role of Mr. Banks and Mary Poppins, thousands of people have played Mr. Banks before.
00:24:43
Speaker
And I don't, I kind of doubt that God is saying that there's this one way to play Mr. Banks.
00:24:51
Speaker
This is it, John.
00:24:53
Speaker
And all those other people should have done it this way too.
00:24:57
Speaker
And so that's interesting.
00:24:59
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:25:00
Speaker
And yet in the moment, from your perspective, it feels like this is the way it needs to be done.
00:25:06
Speaker
Right.
00:25:06
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:25:06
Speaker
Well, and I feel like that's one of the reasons I struggle with re-approaching a show because a lot of times, at least when I've played a character, I feel like they can't be any other person.
00:25:22
Speaker
Going back to Hamlet, which I'm going to be very brief on because I've talked way too much about Hamlet on the podcast.
00:25:28
Speaker
You were in Hamlet?
00:25:30
Speaker
I was.
00:25:31
Speaker
But after I got done and even still now, I'm like, I don't think I can watch another version of Hamlet just because I got – and I mean I can.
00:25:39
Speaker
But I don't want to because I got so familiar with that character more than most characters I have to the point where I'm like –
00:25:47
Speaker
If I watch another version, that's just not going to be that person.
00:25:50
Speaker
And Shakespeare is so ambiguous where I feel like the performance makes the character a lot of times.
00:25:55
Speaker
Right.
00:25:56
Speaker
And of course, they're probably doing a fine job.
00:25:59
Speaker
Right.
00:26:00
Speaker
But you probably feel like someone is walking around and your person in their skin.
00:26:06
Speaker
Right.
00:26:07
Speaker
And I don't think that my choices as Hamlet or as Mr. Banks or any of the characters I've played are necessarily more valid interpretations or ways to do it.
00:26:17
Speaker
But they do just seem like the right ones.
00:26:19
Speaker
But then I've also had shows where I've revisited the same character several times in a couple years.
00:26:27
Speaker
And they change and grow still, too.
00:26:29
Speaker
And it's like, oh, this character is kind of different from when I started out with him.
00:26:33
Speaker
So that isn't always a static target.
00:26:37
Speaker
No, because even with this play that I'm in rehearsal now, we did a read-through and I recorded it to help me memorize the lines.
00:26:47
Speaker
And on the way back, I was saying, I feel like I said those lines just how they needed to be said, you know.
00:26:54
Speaker
But now as I'm listening to them now, the recordings, it's like, no, that's not how it should be said.
00:27:03
Speaker
And so there may be a little...
00:27:06
Speaker
bit of in the moment it can be like yes this is the thing and then with more experience it's like well maybe not and i've definitely had that with design when i look at the stuff i designed last year it's like oh that's a little embarrassing but at the moment it was like yes this is the thing and so that's kind of interesting and maybe should be a little humbling that like
00:27:34
Speaker
We don't need to be too precious of like, this is how it has to be now in my art.
00:27:41
Speaker
But there still seems like there's something there of unlocking a piece of art.
00:27:48
Speaker
I think so.
00:27:49
Speaker
And I think talking about that, looking back and being like, oh, I kind of wish I'd done that better or differently.
00:27:57
Speaker
I think I have that.
00:27:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:01
Speaker
Jesus is a character where I'm like, dang, looking back, I definitely could have done that better because I was 17.
00:28:06
Speaker
And if there's any character I should have been at my best at, it's Jesus.
00:28:10
Speaker
But... I can't believe you didn't 100% nail that.
00:28:15
Speaker
Should have been perfect.
00:28:18
Speaker
Fully sanctified.
00:28:19
Speaker
Yes.
00:28:22
Speaker
But that doesn't mean that what happened in that moment... Yeah.
00:28:27
Speaker
was bad.
00:28:28
Speaker
It was good for that moment.
00:28:30
Speaker
There was, um, I'm not going to get too in the weeds on this cause it's a little personal, but there was like a, a spiritual thing, just like a theological discussion Shay and I have been having about like ways that like Christians or the church are approaching some things.
00:28:45
Speaker
Um, and there was a book that I had read that at this point I don't really think is necessarily the most spiritually healthy book.
00:28:52
Speaker
Um, um,
00:28:54
Speaker
For helping people to grow in a healthy, God-like life.
00:29:02
Speaker
But at the time that I read it, it was very helpful for me.
00:29:05
Speaker
Oh, sure.
00:29:06
Speaker
Which is strange because I'm like, ooh, okay.
00:29:08
Speaker
So that did definitely help me in that season.
00:29:10
Speaker
But now I'm kind of unpacking and I'm like, a large majority of this, now I probably wouldn't recommend that book to somebody.
00:29:17
Speaker
I think it says some...
00:29:19
Speaker
very unhelpful thing spiritually.
00:29:21
Speaker
And yet God used it.
00:29:22
Speaker
And yet God used it.
00:29:23
Speaker
And so it's, I think there's value to, you know, even if looking back, the thing may not be as good as you thought it was with the rose colored glasses in the moment.
00:29:33
Speaker
Right.
00:29:34
Speaker
Even with art, you know, most people like hate to watch themselves or look at their work, but God still used it in that moment for something.
00:29:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:44
Speaker
Um,
00:29:45
Speaker
And that's more important than our art being perfect all the time.
00:29:51
Speaker
It's like we're just these little people playing about and stuff and like, yes, this is perfect.
00:29:59
Speaker
God's up there.
00:30:01
Speaker
That's nice.
00:30:02
Speaker
That's nice.
00:30:03
Speaker
But I'll keep growing you and stuff.
00:30:05
Speaker
But he's not beyond using the imperfect to do his work.
00:30:10
Speaker
Which makes me think of, in Screwtape Letters, I think Lewis says something like that in the voice of Screwtape, that the enemy God is so unfair that he uses even stuff we do or stuff to bring about his good and stuff.
00:30:27
Speaker
It's like, ah, so unfair.
00:30:29
Speaker
It makes me think of a sentiment that two people have said, but in very different contexts.
00:30:35
Speaker
One was one of my former acting teachers,
00:30:39
Speaker
Dan Dupra, he always calls acting playing.
00:30:45
Speaker
He's always like, let's come up and play.
00:30:49
Speaker
Which has been very influential for how I view acting if you take an acting class with me or are directed by me.
00:30:54
Speaker
You will see that influence because I'm very much like, okay, it's a playground that you're stepping into.
00:30:59
Speaker
And then, likewise, my priest has said a similar thing about the Christian life.
00:31:04
Speaker
Not in so...
00:31:07
Speaker
reductive or flippant way, but he's like, we're, we're saved already by God and we're brought into this Christian community.
Creative Play and Freedom in Art
00:31:15
Speaker
And now we just get to play with what the Christian life is in the sense of like, let's figure it out.
00:31:20
Speaker
Let's work out our salvation, not in an irresponsible way, but like we can afford to stumble because Jesus is there and will pick us up.
00:31:31
Speaker
Not in an irresponsible way.
00:31:33
Speaker
Right, but it's not like the stakes aren't ultimate if we make a mistake.
00:31:37
Speaker
Right, like we are allowed to joyfully walk through and be like, let's try this thing.
00:31:41
Speaker
And if it doesn't work, God can still use that and move along and be like, this is actually a little closer to the life that I have for you.
00:31:49
Speaker
Right.
00:31:49
Speaker
And move us that way.
00:31:50
Speaker
But it doesn't mean we have to be petrified of being like...
00:31:53
Speaker
That might not be the exact perfect step that God wanted me to take.
00:31:57
Speaker
Right.
00:31:57
Speaker
Because like the example of your book, God used that at the time.
00:32:02
Speaker
Maybe there was a better book out there that you could have read at that time.
00:32:06
Speaker
But we'll work with this.
00:32:10
Speaker
That just kind of paints a cool picture of God.
00:32:15
Speaker
Like a kind of a lightness and joy.
00:32:17
Speaker
God's the ultimate improv comedian.
00:32:24
Speaker
I better not disagree.
00:32:27
Speaker
Or God will come down here and be like, do you want to go?
00:32:29
Speaker
Let's have an improv off right now.
00:32:30
Speaker
He'll like snap this mic, sit on a stool, take a swig of water.
00:32:35
Speaker
Then it's you and God in an improv battle.
00:32:42
Speaker
I bet God is awesome at improv comedy.
00:32:45
Speaker
That's hilarious.
00:32:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:49
Speaker
Um...
00:32:50
Speaker
So with graphic design, I feel like you hear those words and people are like, ah, yes, the Facebook logo, you know, or something like that, which is you obviously did that.
00:32:59
Speaker
I made that.
00:33:00
Speaker
Few people know that, but you did that.
00:33:03
Speaker
It was a pre-built font.
00:33:05
Speaker
I just got glue around it.
00:33:11
Speaker
But those are like the kind of projects I think people tend to think about, you know.
00:33:16
Speaker
I've definitely seen you create things with beautiful artistry.
Meaningful Projects and Collaborations
00:33:22
Speaker
We've collaborated together.
00:33:23
Speaker
I love your work.
00:33:25
Speaker
But when you're doing graphic design, are there projects where you like make it and you're like, dang, this is like a special project to me, even though it's kind of somebody else's?
00:33:35
Speaker
Oh, for sure.
00:33:37
Speaker
I don't actually hardly ever make anything for myself.
00:33:42
Speaker
So it is, like you asked earlier, it's really helpful when people give me something to make.
00:33:48
Speaker
Otherwise, I wouldn't make anything.
00:33:53
Speaker
I could be doing something else.
00:33:58
Speaker
Just sitting there twiddling your thumbs until I text it.
00:34:01
Speaker
I'm like, hey, Nate, I need another resized logo.
00:34:03
Speaker
I have purpose!
00:34:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:10
Speaker
But it's like, like you asked earlier with Ellie and I are working on a book.
00:34:16
Speaker
My wife Ellie wrote a book in poetic form, a children's book, which is really beautiful.
00:34:23
Speaker
And it's been a great pleasure to work with her.
00:34:27
Speaker
Because she's my wife and stuff, and I've kind of been alongside of her when she's making the story, and I can have a little input.
00:34:34
Speaker
But then we knew I was going to illustrate it, and we had an evening where we just sat down and circled, okay, these illustrations are going to be in one page.
00:34:43
Speaker
What's the picture going to be?
00:34:45
Speaker
And just then, like, image in my mind.
00:34:47
Speaker
This is what it's going to be, and stuff like that, which is really...
00:34:53
Speaker
which was really special because I think that's one of the more closer things I've gotten to.
00:35:00
Speaker
This is something that I've created.
00:35:03
Speaker
It's inspired by the words that my wife wrote.
00:35:07
Speaker
So it's still not out of nothing.
00:35:10
Speaker
But that's special though to have that interaction with someone that you did something and I did something.
00:35:17
Speaker
Now we're like playing together.
00:35:18
Speaker
And like even if I can like,
00:35:23
Speaker
And without her even giving input, like me make a sketch and it's like, that is how I imagined it sort of thing.
00:35:30
Speaker
That interaction is very satisfying.
00:35:33
Speaker
That's really cool.
00:35:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:37
Speaker
It's neat.
00:35:37
Speaker
I don't know if that answered the question.
00:35:39
Speaker
Kind of.
00:35:40
Speaker
What was the question?
00:35:41
Speaker
The question was if there were like, well, I mean, I did.
00:35:44
Speaker
If there was things that were like projects that were special to you or something where you like made something and you were like, oh, this is moving to me or important to me.
00:35:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:56
Speaker
Because like I think about like.
00:35:59
Speaker
When I was running and muted, I loved the logos that you made.
00:36:03
Speaker
And I think there was just some really beautiful artistry to those.
00:36:07
Speaker
But they're just so temporary.
00:36:09
Speaker
That is an interesting thing, the temporalness.
00:36:12
Speaker
Because I agree, when we were working on those logos for those shows you were doing, it's a great challenge to take...
00:36:26
Speaker
a show you were doing pieces of scripture done in dramatic fashion, but they're quoted scripture and the names of the show where it's like Elijah or Psalms and stuff.
00:36:39
Speaker
And so part of like graphics is
00:36:44
Speaker
is there's all this content and you need to tell people what it is in a moment with a visual so that they're interested in it and so that it hopefully reflects the thing that they're going to experience that like um yes the that you you can judge the book by the cover yes hopefully sometimes with nate you can judge the book by its cover yeah
00:37:10
Speaker
Sometimes I feel like I've made the cover more interesting than the book.
00:37:17
Speaker
Some of my projects are inherently not that interesting.
00:37:21
Speaker
So is there a deception there?
00:37:23
Speaker
Maybe.
00:37:24
Speaker
Who knows?
00:37:28
Speaker
Like this cover.
00:37:31
Speaker
For the audio listeners, I gestured to the beautiful sign that Nate made.
00:37:34
Speaker
Thank you.
00:37:35
Speaker
That Nate made.
00:37:40
Speaker
And then I made a self-deprecating joke.
00:37:43
Speaker
No, but this is an example, though.
00:37:46
Speaker
I had the honor of getting to work with John on making his logo for Artists of the Way.
00:37:52
Speaker
And it was a great example of...
00:37:55
Speaker
We have a whole concept of a podcast and the interaction between Christianity and art and how do we put that in just a little crumb cake that we can eat visually.
00:38:09
Speaker
And I gave you like four different keywords and images that were all mismatched.
00:38:14
Speaker
We went through different things before we arrived here.
00:38:18
Speaker
And it's a little Easter egg.
00:38:21
Speaker
These are actually John and my hands here.
00:38:23
Speaker
They are.
00:38:24
Speaker
They are.
00:38:24
Speaker
That's so cool.
00:38:27
Speaker
Um, but yeah, I would say that it is special to be able to, to, to work on, on projects that have some, some meaning to them and to be able to express the thing, um,
00:38:43
Speaker
But even on projects that inherently don't matter that much, if it's like artistically satisfying to me or I got to use new techniques, I get really excited about it.
00:38:55
Speaker
Right.
00:38:56
Speaker
Like you just illustrated a new thing for...
00:38:58
Speaker
The Holland Spring Fling, is that what it's called?
00:39:00
Speaker
Yeah, downtown Holland is having this sales thing and they're doing fun things and stuff in downtown.
00:39:09
Speaker
And I got to illustrate, which I haven't done a lot of, but I'm learning more about it and getting to do it and just...
00:39:16
Speaker
It's a very step-by-step process.
00:39:18
Speaker
Is this going to work?
00:39:19
Speaker
Is it going to work?
00:39:21
Speaker
Often I feel like my designs are in the middle of it.
00:39:24
Speaker
It's like they're on the edge of the knife.
00:39:26
Speaker
It could go either way.
00:39:27
Speaker
This could be terrible or maybe it will work.
00:39:30
Speaker
And that one, it works.
00:39:32
Speaker
And so that's just...
00:39:34
Speaker
the most satisfying thing to me, really.
00:39:36
Speaker
That's cool.
00:39:37
Speaker
Do you feel like, because obviously if you're working at a marketing firm, you're not necessarily doing 100% super rich, artistic, Christian things all
Excellence in Everyday Design Tasks
00:39:45
Speaker
the time.
00:39:45
Speaker
But do you feel like even as you're doing, I don't know, simple, simple is the wrong word, but you know, less profound things.
00:39:53
Speaker
For sure.
00:39:54
Speaker
Do you feel like God is still present working in you in those things or working in those things?
00:40:00
Speaker
Or are they just kind of,
00:40:02
Speaker
We're just going through and doing it.
00:40:04
Speaker
Or are there times where God sneaks up on you and surprises you and is like, hey, I'm doing something in this random promotional.
00:40:12
Speaker
You know...
00:40:14
Speaker
I don't notice a lot of that in those words.
00:40:19
Speaker
And maybe I need to keep my eye out more, but I will say that I have care about pretty much all my projects and kind of back to like we were talking to, like I want to do a good job and there's like a good way to do this.
00:40:34
Speaker
And I can sometimes get too deeply into that.
00:40:36
Speaker
It's like...
00:40:38
Speaker
Maybe the good thing is to finish the project now and stop wasting time and money.
00:40:42
Speaker
That's part of the good.
00:40:47
Speaker
But no, there's a pixel off and it matters.
00:40:50
Speaker
Maybe it doesn't really matter.
00:40:55
Speaker
But no, I have...
00:40:57
Speaker
this discussion sometimes with one of my designer co-workers that he's... Yeah, I sometimes don't understand completely what he thinks because he can be more along the side of like...
00:41:16
Speaker
sometimes we just got to get stuff done and we want it to be good, but these aren't art pieces and that's okay.
00:41:22
Speaker
There's a difference.
00:41:23
Speaker
He says there's a difference between design and art.
00:41:29
Speaker
And to me, those lines are more blurred because I want the little Facebook post that I make to be done with excellence and to matter.
00:41:43
Speaker
And it's like,
00:41:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:45
Speaker
If I think about it for a second, it's like this is a few people will see this and then it will be gone into the social media algorithm.
00:41:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:54
Speaker
So like, what does it really matter?
00:41:56
Speaker
Or like I would design like for the symphony, like program book covers and then they, and they would just get hundreds of them thrown away, you know?
00:42:07
Speaker
And so what does it matter?
00:42:10
Speaker
But I don't know.
00:42:10
Speaker
I feel like it matters.
00:42:15
Speaker
I think that, I mean, about design specifically, it can give people a little bit of spark of there's, there's, there's life in the world and someone put thought into what this design is and they're trying to bring some life into this things we see because we look at design things all the times, advertisements, billboards, social media.
00:42:40
Speaker
We look at them a lot of times more than we like look at God's creation.
00:42:43
Speaker
Really.
00:42:43
Speaker
Right.
00:42:43
Speaker
Right.
00:42:44
Speaker
And probably we look at that stuff too much.
00:42:47
Speaker
But, you know, if it's your job to make it, you want it to be life-giving.
00:42:54
Speaker
And so that feels like something I want to do.
00:42:58
Speaker
But even just for... I think it applies to anyone doing any job that you just want to give your best.
00:43:06
Speaker
And we don't always perfectly do that.
00:43:09
Speaker
But if you're doing your best, I think it's...
00:43:12
Speaker
it's easy to feel like there's meaning in that because, because really then that's an interaction with God and that's the ultimate meeting.
00:43:18
Speaker
If you're, if you're having an interaction with God and you're doing right by what he wants you to do and working heartily with all your strength.
00:43:27
Speaker
Yeah, totally.
00:43:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:28
Speaker
And I think you mentioned excellence and I think I do really think those small things matter.
00:43:35
Speaker
So even if you're doing something in an artistic way,
00:43:39
Speaker
Artistic or not, just something anywhere that's a small thing, that matters for the whole picture of excellence, which I think something that's excellent I do think reflects God.
00:43:50
Speaker
Just in the sense of like, if you slot in and it's easy and it's like, like I tell my wife, we have different classifications for comfort movies.
00:43:58
Speaker
Shay, it needs to be cozy.
00:44:00
Speaker
For me, I need to know that I'm in the hands of a deftly skilled director.
00:44:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:06
Speaker
I know that.
00:44:07
Speaker
I am comforted.
00:44:08
Speaker
I'm in strong hands.
00:44:09
Speaker
I don't care if this is an R-rated traumatizing drama.
00:44:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:14
Speaker
But as long as I've seen in the first 10 minutes.
00:44:16
Speaker
There's some good in the world, Mr. Frodo, and it's in this movie.
00:44:19
Speaker
And it's in this director's skill.
00:44:22
Speaker
But I do, like, when I can tell, oh, this is a well-directed film, everything's giving it its all, I'm like, okay, I can just let go and relax and just do a trust fall into this whole experience that's being done with excellence and then get traumatized as I go.
00:44:40
Speaker
But it's okay, because it's a comforting trauma.
Design Details and Their Significance
00:44:45
Speaker
The best kind.
00:44:45
Speaker
The best kind of trauma.
00:44:47
Speaker
But I do feel like there's a...
00:44:50
Speaker
It affects the experience if you walk into a show or walk in somewhere and you see a gross-looking graphic.
00:44:57
Speaker
Like, you can tell.
00:44:58
Speaker
Like, there's something to that.
00:45:00
Speaker
We can all agree on this, right?
00:45:01
Speaker
Right.
00:45:02
Speaker
We look at that little Facebook logo up at the top and we're like, blech.
00:45:07
Speaker
It's an F and a blue square.
00:45:09
Speaker
It does the job.
00:45:10
Speaker
But, yeah, sometimes you come across, like...
00:45:13
Speaker
Like open like a magazine and it's like, oh, this is not a nice experience.
00:45:18
Speaker
I want to put this down.
00:45:20
Speaker
I just I was looking through a magazine in Colorado the other day because I had an article on theater and we were visiting a friend and she had the magazine and it had an article about theater.
00:45:28
Speaker
And I was like, oh, my gosh, I like theater.
00:45:30
Speaker
And so I was like flipping through to be like, how did this like.
00:45:33
Speaker
group of African-American people change theater.
00:45:35
Speaker
I'm curious.
00:45:36
Speaker
And then it was like, but do you want a dress?
00:45:38
Speaker
Do you want some perfume?
00:45:39
Speaker
And like just overwhelming with information.
00:45:42
Speaker
And I was like, can I just read about this cool African-American theater troupe?
00:45:45
Speaker
Nope.
00:45:46
Speaker
I have to buy dresses and perfume first.
00:45:48
Speaker
It's not worth it.
00:45:51
Speaker
It's not.
00:45:53
Speaker
You can have diversity as long as you buy all these other things.
00:45:57
Speaker
Why do they make diversity so hard?
00:45:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:03
Speaker
But that is an interesting thing to think about.
00:46:09
Speaker
Like, is there a spiritual impact on a little thing that may not be noticed?
00:46:17
Speaker
Like, if you're a janitor and there's this dirty corner of the gym behind...
00:46:25
Speaker
the bleachers where people don't really go, but it needs to be cleaned and going to do a real good job cleaning that.
00:46:34
Speaker
And you do.
00:46:35
Speaker
And like, nobody sees it.
00:46:39
Speaker
What does that matter?
00:46:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:41
Speaker
I would assume it's at least pleasing to God.
00:46:44
Speaker
And I'm being hypocritical in saying this because there's definitely things at my job that I skim the corners on, you know.
00:46:50
Speaker
But like I think about when you're watching a show and there's a great ensemble and you're like, wow, the whole world of this show is...
00:46:59
Speaker
Like perfectly put together.
00:47:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:02
Speaker
Like, I feel like that is true in our work.
00:47:05
Speaker
Even if there's nothing other than that, the person who's always watching you is God, not your mom in the audience.
00:47:10
Speaker
Okay.
00:47:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:11
Speaker
So there's a couple of ways that you can go from there significantly with significance.
00:47:18
Speaker
Um, that relationship with God is like an eternal thing and, and it will play out then in eternity.
00:47:27
Speaker
Um, yeah.
00:47:28
Speaker
So that's important.
00:47:29
Speaker
We want to make God happy.
00:47:30
Speaker
We want him to be happy with us.
00:47:31
Speaker
We want to be good friends with God.
00:47:34
Speaker
So that's important.
00:47:37
Speaker
And then I think it's probably also a training ground for us, right?
Leadership, Service, and Humility in Design
00:47:41
Speaker
That if you're going to have integrity and excellence in this little thing...
00:47:48
Speaker
I think Jesus actually said something like this, didn't he?
00:47:51
Speaker
He who will be faithful with little will be faithful.
00:47:53
Speaker
I thought that's where you were leading.
00:47:54
Speaker
It's like, look at Nate deftly leading us to the Bible.
00:47:59
Speaker
It snuck up on me.
00:48:00
Speaker
I'm in the hands of a deftly skilled director.
00:48:04
Speaker
No.
00:48:06
Speaker
Say it, though.
00:48:07
Speaker
Say it.
00:48:07
Speaker
I'm in the hands of a deftly skilled director.
00:48:09
Speaker
I meant the Bible verse.
00:48:10
Speaker
Oh, the Bible verse.
00:48:11
Speaker
Sorry.
00:48:15
Speaker
He who's been faithful with little will be faithful with much.
00:48:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:19
Speaker
That does.
00:48:20
Speaker
And I think...
00:48:21
Speaker
One of the things that I learned in school and from failing at this thing is I think it's important for the people who are leading and are doing the big noticeable things to be willing to clean the corner that is gross that people don't want to or to put away the chairs or to pick up the poop off the ground if you work at Maltre.
00:48:43
Speaker
Yeah, I've definitely had the feeling of
00:48:49
Speaker
I'm too good to do this little thing.
00:48:51
Speaker
Me too.
00:48:52
Speaker
What a dumb feeling that is.
00:48:54
Speaker
There was a point where I was like, I'm on the board.
00:48:57
Speaker
I don't do these things anymore.
00:48:59
Speaker
And then God was like, you're what now?
00:49:02
Speaker
Excuse me?
00:49:03
Speaker
And God was like, you're right.
00:49:06
Speaker
This is for the little people, not you, John.
00:49:10
Speaker
No, I totally.
00:49:11
Speaker
God backed me up.
00:49:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:14
Speaker
No, he humbled me very quickly.
00:49:17
Speaker
Yeah, and it makes me think about one of the presidents of the symphony when I worked there.
00:49:22
Speaker
He was very much, he was like a servant leader kind of guy.
00:49:27
Speaker
And he would give, like during all staff meetings, he would give his chair up for one of just the regular employees, you know, and he'd stand or sit on the counter nearby kind of thing.
00:49:36
Speaker
That was just like...
00:49:39
Speaker
That's had an impact on me.
00:49:41
Speaker
And yeah, because that is a Jesus-like thing, isn't it?
00:49:45
Speaker
Just little things done with excellence and care.
00:49:49
Speaker
And care.
00:49:49
Speaker
And love.
00:49:50
Speaker
Humility.
00:49:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:52
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:49:53
Speaker
This has been lovely.
00:49:54
Speaker
The time just flew by.
00:49:56
Speaker
We're at 50 minutes.
00:49:57
Speaker
Man.
00:49:58
Speaker
A shocker.
00:49:58
Speaker
Wow.
00:49:59
Speaker
I know.
00:50:00
Speaker
That's fun.
00:50:00
Speaker
It was fun.
00:50:00
Speaker
We'll have you on again.
Advice for Aspiring Designers
00:50:02
Speaker
I do want to know, do you have any resources that you would recommend if people are interested in exploring the world of illustration or design?
00:50:11
Speaker
If they want to try their hand at that artistically, is there somewhere you would direct them?
00:50:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good question.
00:50:19
Speaker
Is there like a deftly skilled teacher whom they could trust fall into and get a little bit of trauma?
00:50:24
Speaker
I hardly even remember where I took my little courses.
00:50:27
Speaker
I will say something that I wanted to say is that with the illustration thing, it's fairly new to me.
00:50:37
Speaker
And it was something that I felt like I didn't, I don't have experience doing this.
00:50:43
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:50:43
Speaker
But then I kind of, as I was taking a couple courses and hearing from other places that, oh, these people who do this professionally, do these things professionally, they were at a place where they didn't have any experience doing it, but they just started doing it.
00:50:59
Speaker
And then they become these great professionals.
00:51:03
Speaker
And that's been a helpful thing for me is like,
00:51:08
Speaker
I guess I can just start doing it and learn more as I do it.
00:51:12
Speaker
And so kind of fighting off that imposter syndrome a little bit, because I feel like everybody has that imposter syndrome that this is for the people who have trained or taken lots of classes or have...
00:51:26
Speaker
notebooks full of they were always great drawers from a kid and stuff and so they're the ones it's too late for me but you'd be surprised what you can do if you have like a natural affinity for something um like illustration that just start doing it i i took a couple cheap courses on online that were
00:51:48
Speaker
Gave me some good tools and inspiration and techniques.
00:51:53
Speaker
But then just keep going.
00:51:54
Speaker
And the great thing about illustration is that it's so personalized, stylized that you can – I'm not like inherently a great illustrator, but you can make cool-looking things in your style.
00:52:06
Speaker
Right.
00:52:08
Speaker
So I'd say look at things that you like and think about how did they do that?
00:52:18
Speaker
Oh, there's some shading down below and some highlights up above.
00:52:22
Speaker
Okay, that makes it look 3D.
00:52:24
Speaker
Oh, that's cool.
00:52:26
Speaker
And so just take a close look at the things you like and you'd be surprised that maybe you can start doing it too the more you do it.
00:52:35
Speaker
Yeah, cool.
00:52:36
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:52:37
Speaker
Well, thanks for coming on, Nate.
00:52:38
Speaker
It was super fun to talk to you.
00:52:39
Speaker
Thanks for having me.
00:52:40
Speaker
It was fun.
00:52:40
Speaker
It was awesome.