Transcript
Speaker: Hey friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John, the host.
Speaker: Today we're going to invite back on my friend Nate Knoblock.
Speaker: He's going to talk to us about his work as a graphic designer, what artistry there is in that, some of his...
Speaker: I was going to use the word attempts, that's the wrong word.
Speaker: His recent work, starting out doing some illustration and exploring that art form.
Speaker: And then we're also just going to talk generally about excellence in art, about joy in art, the way that we're enabled to just play and experiment and try different things.
Speaker: And as always, how we can see God and all of that.
Speaker: It's a super fun episode.
Speaker: I had a lot of fun chatting with him and we talked about a lot of really rich things.
Speaker: So I'm super excited.
Speaker: Thanks for joining us.
Speaker: So, how are you doing?
Speaker: Doing pretty good.
Speaker: Good.
Speaker: How's life?
Speaker: What's new since it's, is it, it's, no, it hasn't been a year yet since we had you on the podcast.
Speaker: When did you start the podcast?
Speaker: June-ish, I think.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So, I mean, we're getting like kind of close.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What episode?
Speaker: You guys were the second one.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What number are you up to now?
Speaker: This one will be 22.
Speaker: So it's been 20 episodes since you were on.
Speaker: Sweet.
Speaker: That's fun.
Speaker: That's like my favorite number.
Speaker: 22?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We got you on your favorite number.
Speaker: It was my basketball jersey number for a while.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And for the hackers out there, it may be in some of my passwords.
Speaker: And knowing's half the hacking.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: Evil is the other half.
Speaker: Knowing and then evil.
Speaker: But yeah, I mean, I don't know.
Speaker: How's life?
Speaker: Are you doing anything new since we talked on the podcast last?
Speaker: Yeah, so...
Speaker: I think last time we talked, we talked in retrospect.
Speaker: I was with my wife, Ellie, on the show, and we talked about the play that we had done, the two-person play.
Speaker: And now we're in rehearsal for the sequel to that play.
Speaker: Oh, that's fun.
Speaker: And so that's fun.
Speaker: And this time it's a four-person play.
Speaker: We're a married couple now.
Speaker: We done got married at the end of the last show, and now we're married, and our mothers are in it now.
Speaker: That's fun.
Speaker: Is it weird inviting two other people into your vibe?
Speaker: you know they're they're really nice other people so we were excited to have them and so it seems like a nice evolution that's cool yeah nice that's fun yeah so doing that i may have had a son since i was on last so that was significant you're not sure though you don't know if you have a son
Speaker: He pops in and out.
Speaker: I don't know if he's just renting or if he belongs to me or not.
Speaker: He lives here in the summer and then he flies to the south for winter.
Speaker: Yeah, something like that.
Speaker: He's small enough to hitch a ride on birds.
Speaker: That's storks, man.
Speaker: That's right.
Speaker: That's how he came.
Speaker: That's how he comes and goes.
Speaker: But yeah, mid-June we had Baron.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: So that's been...
Speaker: You know, just a little thing added.
Speaker: Yeah, just a small thing.
Speaker: Just a little thing.
Speaker: Not huge.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's been fun, though, and a cool experience.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: So I wanted to have you on because of art.
Speaker: That's dumb.
Speaker: I want everybody on because of art.
Speaker: But we didn't really talk specifically about what you do for art when we had you on last.
Speaker: We kind of were talking broadly about...
Speaker: Art and faith.
Speaker: Concepts.
Speaker: Yeah, we were concepting.
Speaker: This is our concepting sound effects.
Speaker: I've made a concept.
Speaker: We could make a concept album called Concepting, where it's just... Anyways.
Speaker: We have the mics.
Speaker: We do it.
Speaker: We can do anything.
Speaker: We have the technology.
Speaker: But so for your work, you do graphic design.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: And we've never actually talked about this.
Speaker: What was it?
Speaker: Why do you do that?
Speaker: What got you into graphic design?
Speaker: Why do that?
Speaker: Why would you even do that?
Speaker: That's what I asked accountants.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a nice question.
Speaker: So since I was a little kid, I was always like the liking to make stuff kid.
Speaker: My mom would buy me reams of paper just because I could then make stuff out of paper.
Speaker: And I just felt like...
Speaker: can make pretty much anything out of paper i didn't do origami i wasn't like fancy but if i had tape and paper like if you just make strips of paper and taper together th is is rope now and so i made like stuffed animals out of paper stuffed with paper and just like kind of
Speaker: staple the edges and stuff it with paper and staple it down and give it as gifts to my family.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: So yeah, so I was always interested in like drawing and crafts and things like that.
Speaker: You know, Microsoft Paint felt like I was pretty good at that.
Speaker: You know, at the time it was like,
Speaker: This is very impressive, is it not?
Speaker: I put my brother's face on Batman's body in paint.
Speaker: Boom.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: And so...
Speaker: I heard about the field of graphic design.
Speaker: I'm like, this could be a way that I could do art stuff and make money.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because usually those things don't go together well.
Speaker: They don't.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: So I was homeschooled.
Speaker: And so I feel like that was very helpful in my parents, like encouraging me in what I was naturally interested in with the arts stuff.
Speaker: And so...
Speaker: In my senior year, I signed up to go to Kent Skill Trade Center because they had a graphic design class there.
Speaker: Oh, nice.
Speaker: And so this was like my first time getting on a school bus and going away in the morning.
Speaker: And you're like, am I going to get shoved into a locker?
Speaker: I was kind of hoping I would be.
Speaker: Rite of passage.
Speaker: I wanted to know if I could handle a fight.
Speaker: And I'm like, okay, going into a school.
Speaker: This is where fights happen.
Speaker: There's going to be a whole crowd of kids surrounding me telling me to fight.
Speaker: And I'll only do it to protect that other kid or if they swung first.
Speaker: But it never happened.
Speaker: Bummer.
Speaker: It was kind of a waste of time.
Speaker: Why did you even go?
Speaker: What good did it do?
Speaker: My nose is still like this.
Speaker: I was hoping they could punch it in a little more.
Speaker: Rapid plastic surgery.
Speaker: But that was a good experience, though.
Speaker: Even though it was in public school?
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: Shocker.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: There are other kids there more than my siblings.
Speaker: Oh, no.
Speaker: They're around my age.
Speaker: The horror.
Speaker: No, I'd played, like, homeschool basketball until now.
Speaker: So I'd seen kids before.
Speaker: Just worry.
Speaker: You're like, who are these tiny people?
Speaker: They're my size.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: But I took the first half of the year was a Photoshop class, and I'd never done Photoshop before, so I was learning the things there.
Speaker: And then the second half was an illustrator class, and so that's another program.
Speaker: I was like, ah, wow.
Speaker: Why does this program does not work well at all?
Speaker: It's a different program doing different things.
Speaker: So I learned that.
Speaker: I was like, okay.
Speaker: But I found that I enjoyed it and was good at it.
Speaker: And so it was in my senior year then, and so trying to figure out college.
Speaker: And I'd be the first one in my family to go to college.
Speaker: And my parents felt like, you are an unhealthy child.
Speaker: You need to stay on our insurance, so you should go to college.
Speaker: That was the main reason.
Speaker: And so I was looking around at the Christian colleges in the area because, you know, Christian, go to a Christian college.
Speaker: That'd be a good, safe, good as you do thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so looked at, there's a lot of them in the area and I applied to some and I got in, but like none of them really had like a graphic design degree.
Speaker: And so it's like, okay, well maybe I could do something adjacent that I'm interested in like children's literature.
Speaker: Cause I'd always like the idea of like writing, illustrating like children's books kind of thing.
Speaker: But the college is expensive.
Speaker: Even the Christians want money.
Speaker: Man is out there.
Speaker: We know it can happen.
Speaker: But yet they want money.
Speaker: They just scratch out any of the greed Bible verses.
Speaker: So, but my, my, my, it was interesting because my mom had felt that she, that, that like, that God had indicated to her that I was going to be able to get through college without debt, but it seemed like that was,
Speaker: That wasn't probably going to happen.
Speaker: We're probably going to have to take out loans to go to one of these Christian colleges.
Speaker: And so I was in the process of deciding where to go.
Speaker: And then one day at the Kent Skill Center, a guy came in from Baker College in Muskegon to tell about Baker.
Speaker: And I'd never heard of Baker before.
Speaker: And he was telling us that they have a graphic design major.
Speaker: And so we look into that and apply.
Speaker: And they didn't even need any grades to apply.
Speaker: I got accepted immediately.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We don't care if you're dumb as a rocks, as long as you can drag a mouse in a straight line, we want you.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: And, and so we start getting into this process of checking them out and turns out it's not going to be very expensive.
Speaker: And cause I had a pretty good ACT score, not like amazing.
Speaker: I got like a half off scholarship and, um,
Speaker: on this already kind of cheaper school.
Speaker: And then my dad's work was going to be able to pay for a bit of the rest of it.
Speaker: So there really wasn't going to be too much for us to pay for.
Speaker: And they had a graphic design major.
Speaker: And so I went there then and...
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, so went there and that was an interesting experience, like from being homeschooled and it's like, ah, I don't know how I stack up.
Speaker: How did my education do?
Speaker: Did my parents do well?
Speaker: Did they do well?
Speaker: Or was I just locked in a basement forever?
Speaker: I didn't realize it.
Speaker: No, my parents are great.
Speaker: They're awesome.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: But yeah, it was fine.
Speaker: I did fine.
Speaker: And so I did graphic design there and I learned and got better.
Speaker: And yeah, really, really enjoyed that.
Speaker: And so then I got into the field.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: So you used to work at the GR Symphony.
Speaker: Was that your first design job or did you have something before that?
Speaker: I had kind of a part-time job doing some design things.
Speaker: The position was kind of made for me at a place.
Speaker: And most of the things I did weren't really needed.
Speaker: Or I didn't see the final light of day, it seemed.
Speaker: And so it was this eccentric rich owner of the company hired me.
Speaker: And it was kind of a weird experience.
Speaker: But I got some experience, though.
Speaker: And so that was good.
Speaker: Um, but, but so I got that.
Speaker: And, and then after I graduated, um, I started working at a summer camp and then I went, I looked for some jobs, but I ended up going back to my old retail job.
Speaker: And in those months, it's like, maybe, maybe I'll never design because I'm just not getting
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You'll just be a Walmart clerk forever.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, Gordon Food Service.
Speaker: A little higher class than that.
Speaker: But yeah, I did get then a job at the Grand Rapids Symphony.
Speaker: And it was really cool because one of my projects in my portfolio was a college college.
Speaker: project where you had to like redesign an event and what are my in my partner's event was the summer Grand Rapids Symphony series picnic pops and so like I was able to show the Grand Rapids Symphony when I interviewed look at I've already designed for you virtually this is what I've done and I did it better
Speaker: And a couple of years later, I got to use that design for like that event.
Speaker: So it was like, that was kind of an emotional experience.
Speaker: I'm like looking at the printed poster that has like elements.
Speaker: I'd made it better, you know, since school, a little bit better.
Speaker: But like emotional, like, oh.
Speaker: Look at what you've done, God, and stuff.
Speaker: And like the whole thing, like this God getting me to the place of getting to go to school and like leading me through the desires and skills that he put me in.
Speaker: Just very beautiful to see.
Speaker: to see how he does that, like how he put, he can put skills and yeah, desires into your heart.
Speaker: And then along the road, you're like, I don't know what I'm going to do with this or how this is going to work out.
Speaker: But then he like finds a way.
Speaker: That's super cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, uh, now I work at a, uh, marketing like PR and firm and, um, in Holland and that's really nice.
Speaker: That is cool.
Speaker: You guys just won an award recently for something that you did.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't know how many other people applied for that award.
Speaker: But you still won an award.
Speaker: We got second.
Speaker: That was very satisfying, though.
Speaker: It was for a website, and I designed illustrations for the website, and it was like...
Speaker: um the first things that i had like illustrated for like for like my work like that and my my work's really nice in that they encourage professional development and they even like will pay for like courses yeah and so they paid for a couple illustrating courses for me because most of what i do is design but i like have a passion for illustrating but i don't have a ton of experience in it but they
Speaker: Paid for a couple of courses and then like gave me the opportunity to use it, which is really cool.
Speaker: Where do you feel like so because now shifting to the illustrating thing a little bit, because you've been dabbling in that a lot the last year through your job and then outside your job.
Speaker: I think we even mentioned last time on the podcast that you and Ellie were working on a book together.
Speaker: You're illustrating that.
Speaker: Which I'm excited for.
Speaker: I, I, you know, I've seen some of the stuff you've done and it's been cool to see you kind of stretch your legs in that.
Speaker: What, where do you think that passion for illustrating specifically started?
Speaker: You know, I think a big influence for me was Dr. Seuss.
Speaker: His books were so full of imagination.
Speaker: And you could like see in the illustrations like how they did it.
Speaker: There were line drawings and colors and usually only like a few different colors on the page that were just reused.
Speaker: And it's like, I can see this.
Speaker: And it's like, I can almost like, I could imagine replicating something like this, but he had such imagination.
Speaker: And that is something that I like about illustration is that it can put a little window, if you will, into like,
Speaker: into that, the edge of reality that helps you see that there's more to our, our current things that we're seeing in this world.
Speaker: But that reality is, is bigger.
Speaker: They're like, you know, there's a spiritual realm and, and there's, yeah, there's more out there.
Speaker: And even in the world that we have, there's wonder, um,
Speaker: implanted into the world and sometimes it takes the the focus of illustration to bring that out um so so those are things that i really resonate with about it yeah that's awesome um
Speaker: What is it like, and this is a question both just with illustrating as you've been working on that and then graphic design, a lot of the work that you do doesn't necessarily start with you.
Speaker: It like comes to you at a certain point and then you pick it up and you create it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: We've done that before on projects.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What is it, what's it like as a,
Speaker: creative being handed something where it's either somebody else's creation or something somebody else just needs and then but they need something else from you is it is it cool to have a jumping off point is it restricting what is that experience like i'd say it's largely freeing of course it can depend on
Speaker: On say, if you're given a project, like at work, we have writers who develop what this postcard has to be, and they write up all the words for it, and then we just have to bring it into being, you know?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But if there's like a ton of words that have to go in a little space, that's like...
Speaker: How am I going to do this?
Speaker: And that can be a little frustrating.
Speaker: We have a little novel here that we need on this postcard.
Speaker: Because it's very emotionally moving.
Speaker: So design it well.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: But there's still a challenge to that.
Speaker: So that's still engaging.
Speaker: But it's nice to have, usually to have that jumping off point where someone has come up with a need and then, okay, this has to get done.
Speaker: And now I just have to think about how can this be done?
Speaker: And it's actually a really cool experience to kind of not have an idea of what to do.
Speaker: And it's like, I don't know.
Speaker: I don't know how I'm going to do this.
Speaker: I just don't know how this should be.
Speaker: And then I found like almost without fail that if I stop and pray to God to help him, to have him help me give, give me an idea that I'll pretty much always get an idea.
Speaker: And it's like the solution.
Speaker: the solution comes to being and and it's been a really cool like
Speaker: personal like like interaction with god and i know that there's other things that like god that like impacts where we get inspiration right to like what we're what we're looking at what we're taking in and so in that way it's really important that like we're taking in the kinds of things that we want to put out like you know good in good out nasty and nasty out but i have really felt like god has like answered
Speaker: answer my prayers and then like something appears in my head and I can like see it and like rearrange it maybe in my head.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: That will work sort of thing.
Speaker: Um, so that's cool.
Speaker: That's super cool.
Speaker: Do you feel like that kind of engagement with God is something that you do with pretty much every project or do you feel like it's specific ones where it's like, this is one where I've got to tap into God and,
Speaker: It usually feels like the latter.
Speaker: Maybe it should probably be all of them.
Speaker: But some of them are like, oh, yeah, this is just simple.
Speaker: I know what to do for this, basically.
Speaker: Which, I mean, maybe it's kind of fair that we are set up with tools and experience.
Speaker: Okay, we just kind of know how to do this or it's pretty straightforward.
Speaker: But sometimes I like...
Speaker: don't think of it as soon or as often as I should.
Speaker: Oh, wait, what about that thing that always works?
Speaker: I could try that.
Speaker: But along that lines of God and design, it's kind of interesting that when you're designing, I don't know if you feel this way about when you're writing or doing your art, even acting, that it can feel like
Speaker: There's already like an essential made version of this thing out there.
Speaker: And I'm trying to...
Speaker: to align my pixels to meet that thing that already exists.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that may be overstating it.
Speaker: There's probably more grace involved of it.
Speaker: It doesn't have to be just like this or that, but it's like, no, it would be best if like these things were aligned because it's good for things to be aligned here or,
Speaker: Are there to be a little sploosh of creativity on this side here?
Speaker: Because that would be good for that to be.
Speaker: So it feels like you're tapping into what's like the platonic good of this design.
Speaker: No, I definitely think that's true.
Speaker: I've definitely felt that with characters where it's like I feel like I'm trying to find a specific...
Speaker: thing in the character that I know is real.
Speaker: I've had that for sure with when I did Mary Poppins and Hamlet.
Speaker: I know both those characters.
Speaker: It was like there was some essential thing that I was aiming for that was a little bit different than what had been done before, but I was like, it feels like this is the thing about this character.
Speaker: And I feel like...
Speaker: think it was michelangelo there's some sculptor who's like i'm not creating it i'm really just freeing the person from this rock they're already in there yeah exactly i'm just i'm just chipping away the excess and getting them out so i feel like that is a common i think even among non-christian artists a common experience of
Speaker: There's already a thing that art's supposed to be that I'm striving towards.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, you know, there's a perfect version of it out there somewhere that we probably will never meet because we're imperfect.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And there's a certain beauty, I think, to the imperfectness of art.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: I definitely think that's true, which is interesting then to think about for artists who are not Christian and even more interesting for artists who are like 0% spiritual who might be completely atheistic and naturalistic.
Speaker: But emotionally, you've got something that you're picturing and striving towards that already seems to be out there outside of yourself that you're trying to get to.
Speaker: So that is an interesting proof, I guess, just about the creative nature of God in that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And interesting that...
Speaker: with your example of like your role of Mr. Banks and Mary Poppins, thousands of people have played Mr. Banks before.
Speaker: And I don't, I kind of doubt that God is saying that there's this one way to play Mr. Banks.
Speaker: This is it, John.
Speaker: And all those other people should have done it this way too.
Speaker: And so that's interesting.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And yet in the moment, from your perspective, it feels like this is the way it needs to be done.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Well, and I feel like that's one of the reasons I struggle with re-approaching a show because a lot of times, at least when I've played a character, I feel like they can't be any other person.
Speaker: Going back to Hamlet, which I'm going to be very brief on because I've talked way too much about Hamlet on the podcast.
Speaker: You were in Hamlet?
Speaker: I was.
Speaker: But after I got done and even still now, I'm like, I don't think I can watch another version of Hamlet just because I got – and I mean I can.
Speaker: But I don't want to because I got so familiar with that character more than most characters I have to the point where I'm like –
Speaker: If I watch another version, that's just not going to be that person.
Speaker: And Shakespeare is so ambiguous where I feel like the performance makes the character a lot of times.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And of course, they're probably doing a fine job.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But you probably feel like someone is walking around and your person in their skin.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I don't think that my choices as Hamlet or as Mr. Banks or any of the characters I've played are necessarily more valid interpretations or ways to do it.
Speaker: But they do just seem like the right ones.
Speaker: But then I've also had shows where I've revisited the same character several times in a couple years.
Speaker: And they change and grow still, too.
Speaker: And it's like, oh, this character is kind of different from when I started out with him.
Speaker: So that isn't always a static target.
Speaker: No, because even with this play that I'm in rehearsal now, we did a read-through and I recorded it to help me memorize the lines.
Speaker: And on the way back, I was saying, I feel like I said those lines just how they needed to be said, you know.
Speaker: But now as I'm listening to them now, the recordings, it's like, no, that's not how it should be said.
Speaker: And so there may be a little...
Speaker: bit of in the moment it can be like yes this is the thing and then with more experience it's like well maybe not and i've definitely had that with design when i look at the stuff i designed last year it's like oh that's a little embarrassing but at the moment it was like yes this is the thing and so that's kind of interesting and maybe should be a little humbling that like
Speaker: We don't need to be too precious of like, this is how it has to be now in my art.
Speaker: But there still seems like there's something there of unlocking a piece of art.
Speaker: I think so.
Speaker: And I think talking about that, looking back and being like, oh, I kind of wish I'd done that better or differently.
Speaker: I think I have that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Jesus is a character where I'm like, dang, looking back, I definitely could have done that better because I was 17.
Speaker: And if there's any character I should have been at my best at, it's Jesus.
Speaker: But... I can't believe you didn't 100% nail that.
Speaker: Should have been perfect.
Speaker: Fully sanctified.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: But that doesn't mean that what happened in that moment... Yeah.
Speaker: was bad.
Speaker: It was good for that moment.
Speaker: There was, um, I'm not going to get too in the weeds on this cause it's a little personal, but there was like a, a spiritual thing, just like a theological discussion Shay and I have been having about like ways that like Christians or the church are approaching some things.
Speaker: Um, and there was a book that I had read that at this point I don't really think is necessarily the most spiritually healthy book.
Speaker: Um, um,
Speaker: For helping people to grow in a healthy, God-like life.
Speaker: But at the time that I read it, it was very helpful for me.
Speaker: Oh, sure.
Speaker: Which is strange because I'm like, ooh, okay.
Speaker: So that did definitely help me in that season.
Speaker: But now I'm kind of unpacking and I'm like, a large majority of this, now I probably wouldn't recommend that book to somebody.
Speaker: I think it says some...
Speaker: very unhelpful thing spiritually.
Speaker: And yet God used it.
Speaker: And yet God used it.
Speaker: And so it's, I think there's value to, you know, even if looking back, the thing may not be as good as you thought it was with the rose colored glasses in the moment.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Even with art, you know, most people like hate to watch themselves or look at their work, but God still used it in that moment for something.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And that's more important than our art being perfect all the time.
Speaker: It's like we're just these little people playing about and stuff and like, yes, this is perfect.
Speaker: God's up there.
Speaker: That's nice.
Speaker: That's nice.
Speaker: But I'll keep growing you and stuff.
Speaker: But he's not beyond using the imperfect to do his work.
Speaker: Which makes me think of, in Screwtape Letters, I think Lewis says something like that in the voice of Screwtape, that the enemy God is so unfair that he uses even stuff we do or stuff to bring about his good and stuff.
Speaker: It's like, ah, so unfair.
Speaker: It makes me think of a sentiment that two people have said, but in very different contexts.
Speaker: One was one of my former acting teachers,
Speaker: Dan Dupra, he always calls acting playing.
Speaker: He's always like, let's come up and play.
Speaker: Which has been very influential for how I view acting if you take an acting class with me or are directed by me.
Speaker: You will see that influence because I'm very much like, okay, it's a playground that you're stepping into.
Speaker: And then, likewise, my priest has said a similar thing about the Christian life.
Speaker: Not in so...
Speaker: reductive or flippant way, but he's like, we're, we're saved already by God and we're brought into this Christian community.
Speaker: And now we just get to play with what the Christian life is in the sense of like, let's figure it out.
Speaker: Let's work out our salvation, not in an irresponsible way, but like we can afford to stumble because Jesus is there and will pick us up.
Speaker: Not in an irresponsible way.
Speaker: Right, but it's not like the stakes aren't ultimate if we make a mistake.
Speaker: Right, like we are allowed to joyfully walk through and be like, let's try this thing.
Speaker: And if it doesn't work, God can still use that and move along and be like, this is actually a little closer to the life that I have for you.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And move us that way.
Speaker: But it doesn't mean we have to be petrified of being like...
Speaker: That might not be the exact perfect step that God wanted me to take.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because like the example of your book, God used that at the time.
Speaker: Maybe there was a better book out there that you could have read at that time.
Speaker: But we'll work with this.
Speaker: That just kind of paints a cool picture of God.
Speaker: Like a kind of a lightness and joy.
Speaker: God's the ultimate improv comedian.
Speaker: I better not disagree.
Speaker: Or God will come down here and be like, do you want to go?
Speaker: Let's have an improv off right now.
Speaker: He'll like snap this mic, sit on a stool, take a swig of water.
Speaker: Then it's you and God in an improv battle.
Speaker: I bet God is awesome at improv comedy.
Speaker: That's hilarious.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um...
Speaker: So with graphic design, I feel like you hear those words and people are like, ah, yes, the Facebook logo, you know, or something like that, which is you obviously did that.
Speaker: I made that.
Speaker: Few people know that, but you did that.
Speaker: It was a pre-built font.
Speaker: I just got glue around it.
Speaker: But those are like the kind of projects I think people tend to think about, you know.
Speaker: I've definitely seen you create things with beautiful artistry.
Speaker: We've collaborated together.
Speaker: I love your work.
Speaker: But when you're doing graphic design, are there projects where you like make it and you're like, dang, this is like a special project to me, even though it's kind of somebody else's?
Speaker: Oh, for sure.
Speaker: I don't actually hardly ever make anything for myself.
Speaker: So it is, like you asked earlier, it's really helpful when people give me something to make.
Speaker: Otherwise, I wouldn't make anything.
Speaker: I could be doing something else.
Speaker: Just sitting there twiddling your thumbs until I text it.
Speaker: I'm like, hey, Nate, I need another resized logo.
Speaker: I have purpose!
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But it's like, like you asked earlier with Ellie and I are working on a book.
Speaker: My wife Ellie wrote a book in poetic form, a children's book, which is really beautiful.
Speaker: And it's been a great pleasure to work with her.
Speaker: Because she's my wife and stuff, and I've kind of been alongside of her when she's making the story, and I can have a little input.
Speaker: But then we knew I was going to illustrate it, and we had an evening where we just sat down and circled, okay, these illustrations are going to be in one page.
Speaker: What's the picture going to be?
Speaker: And just then, like, image in my mind.
Speaker: This is what it's going to be, and stuff like that, which is really...
Speaker: which was really special because I think that's one of the more closer things I've gotten to.
Speaker: This is something that I've created.
Speaker: It's inspired by the words that my wife wrote.
Speaker: So it's still not out of nothing.
Speaker: But that's special though to have that interaction with someone that you did something and I did something.
Speaker: Now we're like playing together.
Speaker: And like even if I can like,
Speaker: And without her even giving input, like me make a sketch and it's like, that is how I imagined it sort of thing.
Speaker: That interaction is very satisfying.
Speaker: That's really cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's neat.
Speaker: I don't know if that answered the question.
Speaker: Kind of.
Speaker: What was the question?
Speaker: The question was if there were like, well, I mean, I did.
Speaker: If there was things that were like projects that were special to you or something where you like made something and you were like, oh, this is moving to me or important to me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because like I think about like.
Speaker: When I was running and muted, I loved the logos that you made.
Speaker: And I think there was just some really beautiful artistry to those.
Speaker: But they're just so temporary.
Speaker: That is an interesting thing, the temporalness.
Speaker: Because I agree, when we were working on those logos for those shows you were doing, it's a great challenge to take...
Speaker: a show you were doing pieces of scripture done in dramatic fashion, but they're quoted scripture and the names of the show where it's like Elijah or Psalms and stuff.
Speaker: And so part of like graphics is
Speaker: is there's all this content and you need to tell people what it is in a moment with a visual so that they're interested in it and so that it hopefully reflects the thing that they're going to experience that like um yes the that you you can judge the book by the cover yes hopefully sometimes with nate you can judge the book by its cover yeah
Speaker: Sometimes I feel like I've made the cover more interesting than the book.
Speaker: Some of my projects are inherently not that interesting.
Speaker: So is there a deception there?
Speaker: Maybe.
Speaker: Who knows?
Speaker: Like this cover.
Speaker: For the audio listeners, I gestured to the beautiful sign that Nate made.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: That Nate made.
Speaker: And then I made a self-deprecating joke.
Speaker: No, but this is an example, though.
Speaker: I had the honor of getting to work with John on making his logo for Artists of the Way.
Speaker: And it was a great example of...
Speaker: We have a whole concept of a podcast and the interaction between Christianity and art and how do we put that in just a little crumb cake that we can eat visually.
Speaker: And I gave you like four different keywords and images that were all mismatched.
Speaker: We went through different things before we arrived here.
Speaker: And it's a little Easter egg.
Speaker: These are actually John and my hands here.
Speaker: They are.
Speaker: They are.
Speaker: That's so cool.
Speaker: Um, but yeah, I would say that it is special to be able to, to, to work on, on projects that have some, some meaning to them and to be able to express the thing, um,
Speaker: But even on projects that inherently don't matter that much, if it's like artistically satisfying to me or I got to use new techniques, I get really excited about it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like you just illustrated a new thing for...
Speaker: The Holland Spring Fling, is that what it's called?
Speaker: Yeah, downtown Holland is having this sales thing and they're doing fun things and stuff in downtown.
Speaker: And I got to illustrate, which I haven't done a lot of, but I'm learning more about it and getting to do it and just...
Speaker: It's a very step-by-step process.
Speaker: Is this going to work?
Speaker: Is it going to work?
Speaker: Often I feel like my designs are in the middle of it.
Speaker: It's like they're on the edge of the knife.
Speaker: It could go either way.
Speaker: This could be terrible or maybe it will work.
Speaker: And that one, it works.
Speaker: And so that's just...
Speaker: the most satisfying thing to me, really.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker: Do you feel like, because obviously if you're working at a marketing firm, you're not necessarily doing 100% super rich, artistic, Christian things all the time.
Speaker: But do you feel like even as you're doing, I don't know, simple, simple is the wrong word, but you know, less profound things.
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: Do you feel like God is still present working in you in those things or working in those things?
Speaker: Or are they just kind of,
Speaker: We're just going through and doing it.
Speaker: Or are there times where God sneaks up on you and surprises you and is like, hey, I'm doing something in this random promotional.
Speaker: You know...
Speaker: I don't notice a lot of that in those words.
Speaker: And maybe I need to keep my eye out more, but I will say that I have care about pretty much all my projects and kind of back to like we were talking to, like I want to do a good job and there's like a good way to do this.
Speaker: And I can sometimes get too deeply into that.
Speaker: It's like...
Speaker: Maybe the good thing is to finish the project now and stop wasting time and money.
Speaker: That's part of the good.
Speaker: But no, there's a pixel off and it matters.
Speaker: Maybe it doesn't really matter.
Speaker: But no, I have...
Speaker: this discussion sometimes with one of my designer co-workers that he's... Yeah, I sometimes don't understand completely what he thinks because he can be more along the side of like...
Speaker: sometimes we just got to get stuff done and we want it to be good, but these aren't art pieces and that's okay.
Speaker: There's a difference.
Speaker: He says there's a difference between design and art.
Speaker: And to me, those lines are more blurred because I want the little Facebook post that I make to be done with excellence and to matter.
Speaker: And it's like,
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: If I think about it for a second, it's like this is a few people will see this and then it will be gone into the social media algorithm.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So like, what does it really matter?
Speaker: Or like I would design like for the symphony, like program book covers and then they, and they would just get hundreds of them thrown away, you know?
Speaker: And so what does it matter?
Speaker: But I don't know.
Speaker: I feel like it matters.
Speaker: I think that, I mean, about design specifically, it can give people a little bit of spark of there's, there's, there's life in the world and someone put thought into what this design is and they're trying to bring some life into this things we see because we look at design things all the times, advertisements, billboards, social media.
Speaker: We look at them a lot of times more than we like look at God's creation.
Speaker: Really.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And probably we look at that stuff too much.
Speaker: But, you know, if it's your job to make it, you want it to be life-giving.
Speaker: And so that feels like something I want to do.
Speaker: But even just for... I think it applies to anyone doing any job that you just want to give your best.
Speaker: And we don't always perfectly do that.
Speaker: But if you're doing your best, I think it's...
Speaker: it's easy to feel like there's meaning in that because, because really then that's an interaction with God and that's the ultimate meeting.
Speaker: If you're, if you're having an interaction with God and you're doing right by what he wants you to do and working heartily with all your strength.
Speaker: Yeah, totally.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think you mentioned excellence and I think I do really think those small things matter.
Speaker: So even if you're doing something in an artistic way,
Speaker: Artistic or not, just something anywhere that's a small thing, that matters for the whole picture of excellence, which I think something that's excellent I do think reflects God.
Speaker: Just in the sense of like, if you slot in and it's easy and it's like, like I tell my wife, we have different classifications for comfort movies.
Speaker: Shay, it needs to be cozy.
Speaker: For me, I need to know that I'm in the hands of a deftly skilled director.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I know that.
Speaker: I am comforted.
Speaker: I'm in strong hands.
Speaker: I don't care if this is an R-rated traumatizing drama.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But as long as I've seen in the first 10 minutes.
Speaker: There's some good in the world, Mr. Frodo, and it's in this movie.
Speaker: And it's in this director's skill.
Speaker: But I do, like, when I can tell, oh, this is a well-directed film, everything's giving it its all, I'm like, okay, I can just let go and relax and just do a trust fall into this whole experience that's being done with excellence and then get traumatized as I go.
Speaker: But it's okay, because it's a comforting trauma.
Speaker: The best kind.
Speaker: The best kind of trauma.
Speaker: But I do feel like there's a...
Speaker: It affects the experience if you walk into a show or walk in somewhere and you see a gross-looking graphic.
Speaker: Like, you can tell.
Speaker: Like, there's something to that.
Speaker: We can all agree on this, right?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: We look at that little Facebook logo up at the top and we're like, blech.
Speaker: It's an F and a blue square.
Speaker: It does the job.
Speaker: But, yeah, sometimes you come across, like...
Speaker: Like open like a magazine and it's like, oh, this is not a nice experience.
Speaker: I want to put this down.
Speaker: I just I was looking through a magazine in Colorado the other day because I had an article on theater and we were visiting a friend and she had the magazine and it had an article about theater.
Speaker: And I was like, oh, my gosh, I like theater.
Speaker: And so I was like flipping through to be like, how did this like.
Speaker: group of African-American people change theater.
Speaker: I'm curious.
Speaker: And then it was like, but do you want a dress?
Speaker: Do you want some perfume?
Speaker: And like just overwhelming with information.
Speaker: And I was like, can I just read about this cool African-American theater troupe?
Speaker: Nope.
Speaker: I have to buy dresses and perfume first.
Speaker: It's not worth it.
Speaker: It's not.
Speaker: You can have diversity as long as you buy all these other things.
Speaker: Why do they make diversity so hard?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But that is an interesting thing to think about.
Speaker: Like, is there a spiritual impact on a little thing that may not be noticed?
Speaker: Like, if you're a janitor and there's this dirty corner of the gym behind...
Speaker: the bleachers where people don't really go, but it needs to be cleaned and going to do a real good job cleaning that.
Speaker: And you do.
Speaker: And like, nobody sees it.
Speaker: What does that matter?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I would assume it's at least pleasing to God.
Speaker: And I'm being hypocritical in saying this because there's definitely things at my job that I skim the corners on, you know.
Speaker: But like I think about when you're watching a show and there's a great ensemble and you're like, wow, the whole world of this show is...
Speaker: Like perfectly put together.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, I feel like that is true in our work.
Speaker: Even if there's nothing other than that, the person who's always watching you is God, not your mom in the audience.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So there's a couple of ways that you can go from there significantly with significance.
Speaker: Um, that relationship with God is like an eternal thing and, and it will play out then in eternity.
Speaker: Um, yeah.
Speaker: So that's important.
Speaker: We want to make God happy.
Speaker: We want him to be happy with us.
Speaker: We want to be good friends with God.
Speaker: So that's important.
Speaker: And then I think it's probably also a training ground for us, right?
Speaker: That if you're going to have integrity and excellence in this little thing...
Speaker: I think Jesus actually said something like this, didn't he?
Speaker: He who will be faithful with little will be faithful.
Speaker: I thought that's where you were leading.
Speaker: It's like, look at Nate deftly leading us to the Bible.
Speaker: It snuck up on me.
Speaker: I'm in the hands of a deftly skilled director.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Say it, though.
Speaker: Say it.
Speaker: I'm in the hands of a deftly skilled director.
Speaker: I meant the Bible verse.
Speaker: Oh, the Bible verse.
Speaker: Sorry.
Speaker: He who's been faithful with little will be faithful with much.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That does.
Speaker: And I think...
Speaker: One of the things that I learned in school and from failing at this thing is I think it's important for the people who are leading and are doing the big noticeable things to be willing to clean the corner that is gross that people don't want to or to put away the chairs or to pick up the poop off the ground if you work at Maltre.
Speaker: Yeah, I've definitely had the feeling of
Speaker: I'm too good to do this little thing.
Speaker: Me too.
Speaker: What a dumb feeling that is.
Speaker: There was a point where I was like, I'm on the board.
Speaker: I don't do these things anymore.
Speaker: And then God was like, you're what now?
Speaker: Excuse me?
Speaker: And God was like, you're right.
Speaker: This is for the little people, not you, John.
Speaker: No, I totally.
Speaker: God backed me up.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, he humbled me very quickly.
Speaker: Yeah, and it makes me think about one of the presidents of the symphony when I worked there.
Speaker: He was very much, he was like a servant leader kind of guy.
Speaker: And he would give, like during all staff meetings, he would give his chair up for one of just the regular employees, you know, and he'd stand or sit on the counter nearby kind of thing.
Speaker: That was just like...
Speaker: That's had an impact on me.
Speaker: And yeah, because that is a Jesus-like thing, isn't it?
Speaker: Just little things done with excellence and care.
Speaker: And care.
Speaker: And love.
Speaker: Humility.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: This has been lovely.
Speaker: The time just flew by.
Speaker: We're at 50 minutes.
Speaker: Man.
Speaker: A shocker.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: That's fun.
Speaker: It was fun.
Speaker: We'll have you on again.
Speaker: I do want to know, do you have any resources that you would recommend if people are interested in exploring the world of illustration or design?
Speaker: If they want to try their hand at that artistically, is there somewhere you would direct them?
Speaker: Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker: Is there like a deftly skilled teacher whom they could trust fall into and get a little bit of trauma?
Speaker: I hardly even remember where I took my little courses.
Speaker: I will say something that I wanted to say is that with the illustration thing, it's fairly new to me.
Speaker: And it was something that I felt like I didn't, I don't have experience doing this.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: But then I kind of, as I was taking a couple courses and hearing from other places that, oh, these people who do this professionally, do these things professionally, they were at a place where they didn't have any experience doing it, but they just started doing it.
Speaker: And then they become these great professionals.
Speaker: And that's been a helpful thing for me is like,
Speaker: I guess I can just start doing it and learn more as I do it.
Speaker: And so kind of fighting off that imposter syndrome a little bit, because I feel like everybody has that imposter syndrome that this is for the people who have trained or taken lots of classes or have...
Speaker: notebooks full of they were always great drawers from a kid and stuff and so they're the ones it's too late for me but you'd be surprised what you can do if you have like a natural affinity for something um like illustration that just start doing it i i took a couple cheap courses on online that were
Speaker: Gave me some good tools and inspiration and techniques.
Speaker: But then just keep going.
Speaker: And the great thing about illustration is that it's so personalized, stylized that you can – I'm not like inherently a great illustrator, but you can make cool-looking things in your style.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So I'd say look at things that you like and think about how did they do that?
Speaker: Oh, there's some shading down below and some highlights up above.
Speaker: Okay, that makes it look 3D.
Speaker: Oh, that's cool.
Speaker: And so just take a close look at the things you like and you'd be surprised that maybe you can start doing it too the more you do it.
Speaker: Yeah, cool.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: Well, thanks for coming on, Nate.
Speaker: It was super fun to talk to you.
Speaker: Thanks for having me.
Speaker: It was fun.
Speaker: It was awesome.
