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Grief and Loss Through the Holidays
167 Plays1 year ago
The holidays are officially here, but for many people it doesn't feel like a jolly season. Grief, old and new, seems to weigh heavier during times that are meant to be spent with family. On today's episode, Julie sat down with grief therapist- Amy Curtis- to talk about different types of grief, tips for processing the range of emotions that comes with grief, and how best to support yourself.
A little more about today's guest:
Amy Curtis is a LCSW, CEAP Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Certified Employee Assistance Professional.
She has been a licensed practitioner for 25 years and with a diverse career as discharge planner in psychiatric hospital, Employee Assistance Consultant, Crisis Counselor, utilization reviewer for several managed care companies, Director of Behavioral Health for large insurance company, and for past 3 years has been working with adults in private practice settings. Amy started her own private practice -Firelight Counseling, LLC a year ago – just had her 1 yr anniversary and business is going well!
Resources:
Griefshare.org – 13 week structured support group that is faith based. Ability to look up based on zip code to see what is offered in your area.
Get in touch with Amy:
[email protected]
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Transcript
Introduction to Season 2
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome back to season two of Outside of Session. I'm your host, licensed clinical social worker, and therapist BFF, Julie Hilton. This season, I'm interviewing some incredible guests who also happen to be experts in their fields. Mental health, motherhood, spirituality, and so much more. I can't wait for their stories to be told. These are all the conversations I'm having outside of session.
Grief During the Holidays
00:00:46
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of season two of outside of session. For today's episode, I sat down with Amy Curtis to have a conversation about grief and loss, especially when it comes to the holiday season. It's early November, so I know everyone is thinking about plans for the holidays and making plans with their families.
00:01:08
Speaker
And if you've had some kind of loss, whether it's recent or whether it's been a long time, going into the holiday season can be really hard because it can stir up a lot of those feelings of grief. So I'm hoping that today's episode can be a reminder and a good conversation to remind you to take really good care of yourself through the holiday season and offer some tips on how to do that.
Meet Amy Curtis
00:01:29
Speaker
A little bit more about Amy. She is a licensed clinical social worker and is also a certified employee assistance professional. She has been in practice for over 25 years and has a really diverse career. She's done everything from being a discharge planner at a psychiatric hospital. She's been an employee assistance consultant, a crisis counselor. She's done utilization reviews for several managed care companies and was a director of behavioral health for a large insurance company.
00:01:59
Speaker
And then for the past three years, she's been working with adults in private practice setting. And she actually started her own private practice about a year ago. She just had her first anniversary. Um, and her practice is called Firelight Counseling. It also happens to be right across the hall for me. Amy is my suite mate. And so I've gotten to know her really well over the past year. And I'm just so thankful that she sat down with me today to have this really important conversation.
Handling Festive Grief
00:02:23
Speaker
So with all of that being said, I hope you enjoy today's episode as I sit down and talk with Amy about grief and loss.
00:02:35
Speaker
Amy, good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for being here today. Well, thank you for having me. I feel like I kind of cornered you into doing this episode.
00:02:48
Speaker
that I really wanted somebody to be able to come on and talk specifically about grief and loss. And, you know, this episode is coming out in the beginning of November. So I know so many people are making holiday plans right now. They're talking about being around their family. And that brings up, I mean, a lot of different feelings for a lot of different reasons, not just because of grief, but I thought it would just be a really good way to kick off the holiday season is to pause and say, how can we take really good care of ourselves if we've lost someone?
00:03:17
Speaker
Right, no, definitely. This is a, you know, with the change of seasons and upcoming holidays, it's not always a joyful time for some people. The holidays, obviously, bring up a sense of family and tradition. And they can be difficult for people. And so sometimes when you've had a loss of a loved one, making new holiday traditions can be really important. Or holidays are going to just look really different.
00:03:48
Speaker
Some people like to lean into that familiarity with making their mom's favorite sweet potato casserole where other people will actually want to avoid all of that. It's just too difficult. It's too hard. So some people I would encourage to be able to make new traditions like maybe
00:04:08
Speaker
It's not the sit down dinner you're used to having. Maybe it's you plan time away. You do a vacation. You do something different. People have had people go on cruises or go to the beach or just do something totally different. Have Chinese food instead of a turkey dinner. Something that really can help get through that period of time and create something different for the family.
00:04:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's such, those are all such good suggestions. And I think especially what comes to mind for me is being really, really protective of yourself and being really intentional with your plans for the holiday season. So almost like pausing now, like before we get to the holiday season, to be able to say, how can I take really care of myself? So that you're not just like winging it the day of, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.
00:05:04
Speaker
A lot of times people need to really make sure they have a plan and sometimes who doesn't sneak up on you like that. So planning ahead is important, not just for holidays, but for obviously anniversary dates and birthdays, things of that nature to be able to plan, especially that first year of a loss that can be very significant and making through those first
The First Year of Grief
00:05:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about that. We call that the year of first, right? Um, so it's the first father's day, first mother's day, first wedding anniversary, birthdays, that first holiday or celebratory day that comes around without the loved one. How do you work with clients on that, um, on getting through those days? Right. Right. Trying to make it meaningful for them.
00:05:58
Speaker
So grief is a lot about meaning making, right? How do I make meaning out of this loss? How do I honor this person? And what way will it be the most beneficial for me? We're very different people, right? Some of us are extroverts, introverts, and we have different ways of expressing ourselves. So for a mother's day, for instance, there might be something you'd want to do that would honor that mother. Maybe it would be to
00:06:24
Speaker
go to the cemetery and put flowers down. Maybe it would be to write a letter. Maybe it would be to do something that maybe would cook her favorite dinner. Something to kind of look at it and make it your own. Because it's going to look different for you. When you look around, the world is still operating the way it always has, right? But you feel different in that space now. Because you don't have that same celebration of Mother's Day like you did before.
00:06:53
Speaker
You know, so now, you know, sometimes we feel jealous or envious of other people that do have their mothers, for instance, during that time. So it can be really a painful, painful time. And to be able to, like you say, be gentle with yourself, right? Take good care of yourself. You know, and being able to say, what can I tolerate right now? We don't need to push ourselves to do what we think people
00:07:17
Speaker
what we should do, what we're saying to ourselves, or what people expect us to do, right? We want to do what's really important to you personally. What's going to give meaning or comfort to be able to manage that day?
Understanding Grief Stages
00:07:34
Speaker
You know, it makes me think too.
00:07:37
Speaker
I've had a lot of clients in their year of first that they're just trying to get through it. They're just trying to survive there. There is no sense of new norm yet. Right. And so that, that year of first is just, it's still so raw.
00:07:52
Speaker
um that that kind of the goal of getting through that holiday season or that that anniversary or whatever it is it really the goal is really just to survive and get through right and it's not until the second or third year that some time has passed that they realize that they're settling into like a new norm like this is my new norm on mother's day this is my
00:08:15
Speaker
new norm on birthdays. And so I think a lot of people assume that the first year is going to be the hardest and I don't necessarily think it is. Right, right. Do you agree with that? Yeah, I totally agree with that. Totally agree. Because a lot of times there's so much shock and numbness that goes along with that and that it takes time to be able to really settle into your point that this is a permanent normal.
00:08:44
Speaker
Right? This is a permanency that's happening here. And it takes a while for our brain and our heart to kind of catch up with each other. Right? Because our head might know all this stuff. Right? But our heart has not connected with it. So, you know, oftentimes do see the second year can be sometimes more difficult than the first.
00:09:09
Speaker
But with that being said, it's really important to note that everybody's grieving the cycle and how they experience it is different. You know, it's not kind of like you're going to go through this immediately and then that's going to happen.
00:09:25
Speaker
I know people are really familiar with, you know, Kula Ross's stages of grief, but it doesn't really happen linear like that, right? Yeah, that was actually going to be one of my questions that I wanted to talk about was like most people have heard of the five stages of grief. And you might want to explain that for anybody that has not like the different stages that she developed. And then what do you think about that? And how does that differ in like what you're actually seeing in practice?
Evolving Grief Theories
00:09:53
Speaker
Right. Okay. Well, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, she was sort of like, you know, a lot of people may know her name from really it's back in the 70s. I mean, when this was all developed, so she kind of started a framework, which is, she notices the five stages of grief. So denial is noted as the first stage, that initial shock, which is actually kind of out of body, surreal type of feeling experience. Um, and then anger.
00:10:20
Speaker
So there's anger at God, at the person for leaving, at the situation, at the medical team, at the world in general, could just be a lot of anger. Bargaining comes into, is considered the surge stage. And that's where we're trying to make sense of it, right? Our mind is trying to say, hey, if only this had happened, maybe that would have happened. Or hey, if you let, you know,
00:10:46
Speaker
my daughter lives and I will be a better Christian. We start to do a different kind of bargaining with God oftentimes or with medical staff and with ourselves. And the next stage is depression, which is the overall sadness, right? Kind of that dark hole we can find ourselves in of a heavy heaviness that goes along with that. And then the last stage is acceptance, right? Where we've
00:11:12
Speaker
We've come to understanding this is final. There is finality to that. And I think the problem that people have always talked about with these stages, they're not linear like that. It's not like you go denial, anger bar. It's not going to be, and then you're done. You're not done with one, and then you move to the next category. You're not like, OK, I'm completely not angry anymore. It's time for you to go into it right. Right, right. So you can go back and forth. You can go into all those different feelings and stages in one day, right?
00:11:41
Speaker
So it's important, I think, people got kind of stuck on this linear way by doing this right. Like, am I grieving right? And so I think things have kind of evolved since that initial theory kind of came out. And there's some other theories that I can, I mean, that's a good kind of playing field, I think, to start with. But I think grief has really evolved as far as different theorists and other people that are out there.
00:12:10
Speaker
I really like the continuing connections and bonds, and that's by Class Silverman and Nickman. Basically, it kind of talks about how even after death, we want that connection, right? And there still is a connection. And that death doesn't have to mean the end of the relationship. It means that the relationship has changed and it's evolved. So we're looking for that connection. We're looking to feel that person. And so we may look at it for signs
00:12:40
Speaker
We may look for it through the clothing we put on, or the books, their Bible that they had, or a journal that we read, different ways that we're looking to connecting. And so we really will link objects, like I just mentioned, that really represent that person to you. So I really
Embracing Grief
00:12:57
Speaker
like that part of it. I like just the understanding of the dualness of this. So there's kind of oscillation involved too, which is the leaning in.
00:13:08
Speaker
So I use a lot of leaning in with my clients of we're going to lean into this, right? Which is very different from human nature of we want to avoid pain, right? So we don't want to think about it. We don't want to look like we want to avoid that, but the ability to lean in and that can be very intense, right? We don't want to lean in for 24 seven. And I think with a cute, intense grief, we can feel like we are just overwhelmed with that, right? So we can do that.
00:13:38
Speaker
Yeah, we need to be able to oscillate and not just lean in, but then also dip out, what I kind of call is dipping out, allowing yourself to have those breaks, to have fun, right? To watch a TV show, to do something with your child, to go to a football game, to be able to know that we are in the land of the living. But we're sort of in this liminal space too of what was before and what will be to come, right? And that's an uncomfortable place to be.
00:14:09
Speaker
I like that you're saying that because I think that with my clients, especially with a lot of the trauma work that I do, I think that for a lot of people, we, like you said, we naturally human nature, we try to avoid those really painful emotions, right?
00:14:24
Speaker
And for a lot of people, there's this fear of, okay, I hear that it's healing to lean into it, but there's this fear of if I lean into it, it will consume me. I'm so afraid of what I've shoved down at what is behind those doors that I'm afraid that if I even
00:14:42
Speaker
crack the door or peek behind it, it will consume me and I won't be able to pull myself out of it. There's this, there's this fear of there's just too much. And so I like what you're saying because you're saying that leaning into it doesn't mean diving headfirst into it and letting it consume you to the point that you can't also
00:14:59
Speaker
Not just enjoy life but function in life too, you know for a lot of people it's a fear of It's not that I just want to enjoy a football game. I've got to be able to go to work I've got other children to take care of and so there's this fear of I have to keep it bottled up Because if I don't I won't be able to function and what you're saying is Helping people people be able to sit with it and lean into it temporarily
00:15:23
Speaker
in a way that is actually helping you process through it, but it's not in a way that is going to completely consume your life. Right, right. And certainly in the beginning it does, and it's okay. It's just making sure we're not repressing things so that it doesn't lead to complicated grief.
Beyond Death: Other Losses
00:15:43
Speaker
You know, in the prolonged grief where we can't function. We are just, we don't, we can't get out of bed. We just can't do daily functioning of activities.
00:15:52
Speaker
We avoid things that remind us of that person. We start isolating from our friends and family. We're not taking care of ourselves anymore. So that's the things you want to pay attention to. So working with a therapist, if you're dealing with that, would be really encouraged because people a lot of times think that they're going crazy.
00:16:19
Speaker
all of these waves of emotion that come out of nowhere sometimes or just take you out mentally. You're in a fog, you know, I'm not functioning. You know, it's really important to normalize some of this too, to be able to say, you know, this is, this is a mental and physical response that you're dealing with loss. And it's just not, not just a loss of a loved one, but a loss of a marriage, right?
00:16:43
Speaker
a loss of a job, a loss of a significant dream or financial situation that has changed your life now from what you've known it, right? So grief is not just about death, right? But it's also about other losses as well.
00:17:00
Speaker
I think that that's such an important point to make because I'm sure when people saw what today's episode was going to be about, grief and loss, we almost automatically think of death. And if this is your first year divorced, or like you said, if this is your first year, if you got laid off from a dream job or you had a business that you had to close this year, some of those other really permanent big losses in life
00:17:31
Speaker
going into the holiday season can be really, really hard if you've experienced these other losses, especially if if you haven't like validated that loss for yourself. And so it's coming up, but you're telling yourself like
00:17:44
Speaker
Well, it's not as bad as death. Why am I so upset with this? And people really minimize their pain. So I think that that's really, really important if you've had a different kind of loss within the past year or longer, like that could come up during the holiday season as well. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah.
Family Dynamics in Grieving
00:18:04
Speaker
I wanted to circle back around to something you said just a second ago, which is you said in the beginning, it's normal, like for it to feel consuming.
00:18:16
Speaker
And you and I were talking a little bit yesterday about frustrations with insurance companies because like what therapist doesn't have frustrations with insurance companies. But one of the things that they say is in the diagnostic criteria is something about normal bereavement.
00:18:33
Speaker
And I always pause when I say that and I'm like, what is that even supposed to mean? Like what is normal bereavement supposed to mean? And I think you're right. Like a lot of people as they're going through their process, they're kind of looking around saying like, am I doing this right? Am I, should I be like farther along in my grief or something like that?
00:18:52
Speaker
Why am I still struggling with this? It's been 10 years, you know? And so I think that that's like, something that holds people up in their healing a lot is because they are comparing themselves to other like, especially if you have, let's say you have a parent pass.
00:19:08
Speaker
And it's been a couple of years and it seems like your siblings are already at acceptance and they're not stuck like you are. And so you kind of ask yourself like, what's wrong with me? Am I not doing this right? Because I know they also loved mom the same way that I love mom, but it doesn't seem to be still like debilitating the way that it is for me. So how do you help clients when they're having those kinds of thoughts or feelings of
00:19:33
Speaker
Is this considered normal bereavement, or am I doing this right? How do you approach that? Right. Well, I try to normalize it too, and I think you're right. A lot of people try to compare themselves, even in the same family, right? Even males and females, we're very different, and we're very different on how we express emotion. So just a difference in our gender oftentimes, and different variables will impact your grief too.
00:20:02
Speaker
What what you saw growing up, right how you saw people around you that agreed or did not prove How your culture expresses it right? What are you expecting culturally, you know? That you've been taught that's important to you, you know, and is it is there's a spiritual element too How are we dealing with a spiritual element of that? So part of what I try to do is also normalize to kind of let go of this Part of being performative. Am I doing this right?
00:20:33
Speaker
And I have to do it quickly and well because I don't have time for that. I see a lot of that with clients. It's like, I like to just get this over with and move on. And grief is one of those things that you can't force that, right? You have to honor yourself and honor your process that you're going through.
Grief and Identity
00:20:55
Speaker
I believe that grief, we grow into our grief. Grief grows around us. It becomes kind of a part of who we are now.
00:21:03
Speaker
Right people say I just got to get through this Well, it makes it sound like there's going to be this end I know and at the end of the tunnel That's going to be this bright light and it's all we're all going to be done with it And it and I think that's something that people don't realize how significant you know, our losses can be And and there's so many different types of grief too that you know, like a death of a pet a miscarriage, right?
00:21:31
Speaker
Things that maybe people, other people don't see or they think, oh, well, you know, you just get pregnant again or oh, just go get another dog. So I think when you're working with somebody, you know, they've been hearing all these messages from outside people. And then that's what becomes overwhelming of I'm struggling. I must not be doing this well or doing this right. You know, so trying to normalize with that.
00:21:57
Speaker
Say what you said just a second ago again. Um, cause I think that a lot of people think time heals all wounds and anybody that has had a suffered a significant loss knows that that's, that's not the feeling, but you just said something that I really liked. You said you grow into your grief. Is that how you said it? You grow around grief, right? It becomes a part of us. Right. And I think, and I can see from my own grief experience, right?
00:22:25
Speaker
I think my first major grief, obviously I've lost pets when I was younger, but was fertility for me. So I went through, you know, down the road of fertility and that didn't work for me. So actually having to grieve the fact I would never carry my own child. I would never be able to do that, right? So that was a grieving process too. You know, I do have a child through adoption.
00:22:54
Speaker
So that helped, obviously, deal with my grief regarding that. But that's a huge loss. I'm thinking that I had this idea of plan for my life, and now it's a different direction. And we see that not just in infertility, but a death of a child. I'm not going to see them get married. I'm not going to see my grandchildren, all of those kind of things that go along with that.
00:23:20
Speaker
Yeah, a huge part of grief is grieving the loss of a dream or a loss of what you have planned for your future. Like when you have this person in your life or you have your life that you're expecting to go a certain way, we dream all the time, right? Like we're planning vacations and milestones and what it's like to have, we just assume that this person is going to be there with us and then
00:23:47
Speaker
So it's not just grieving the absence of their life currently. It's all the dreams, the realization and wrapping your mind around like, I'm not going to be able to do this with them. They're not going to be able, they're not going to be here to see these milestones. It's a huge part of grief. Right.
Unresolved Issues and Grief
00:24:04
Speaker
Right. And, and when you're looking at you, like even like, you know, your loss of your parents, right? Nobody else is going to be your mom. Nobody else is going to be your dad. Yeah.
00:24:14
Speaker
So you're losing not only that person, but that role that they played in their life, in your life, right? And sometimes that's complicated by difficult relationships, right? You don't all have rosy relationships or really, absolutely relationships, but sometimes there's, there's unfinished business as we call, right? So if somebody dies and there was complicated issues in that relationship, we didn't feel resolved and we feel like
00:24:43
Speaker
We've missed out somehow, right? So work with clients on that too. How do I deal with this idea of unfinished business to be able to feel like I can manage this loss? Yeah, I'm even thinking about how that could potentially complicate grief, especially again around the holidays. You know, when we have a loss and we
00:25:10
Speaker
Part of us wants to remember and honor and include them in our holiday celebrations like you were saying and still feel that connection. But let's say there was tension when that person died or that person hurt you in your lifetime and there was never an apology.
00:25:29
Speaker
if it was a parent that was abusive. That complicates grief so much because especially if outside of the family, people are still encouraging you to remember them and honor them, but there's a part of you that's still raging inside at them. That makes it so incredibly complicated because that can bring a lot of guilt, I think. I'm still so angry at this person, but they're not here.
00:25:57
Speaker
And I think that that's what especially causes a lot of heaviness going through the holiday season because, I mean, I have my own opinions on the holidays. I think this is a time of forced happiness and forced joy for a lot of people when a lot of us are in positions where we don't feel a lot of joy at the moment. Like it's a lot of forced family time and things that can honestly not be good for us.
00:26:25
Speaker
But I think that that's one of the reasons that makes it so heavy is because there's this expectation of we're all supposed to be so darn happy right now. And not only are we grieving and there is a sadness to it, but there can be so much complication with it as well. Then it can, it can be honestly like overwhelming to sort through the different mixed emotions with it. Right. Right. Definitely.
Podcast Support and Sharing
00:26:55
Speaker
Hey everyone, I just wanted to pause for a quick moment to say thank you so much for all the love and support that you're showing outside of session. If you haven't already, do me a huge favor and hit the subscribe button. Give me a five star review and share this podcast with all of your friends. Help me take this show to another level. Now back to today's episode.
00:27:20
Speaker
How did you, um, I was going to ask you this. How did you become to, how did you come to specialize in grief and loss? Like, how did you end up here with this being one of your specialties? Um, one of the things that I don't know if it's like is a good term, but I guess I'll say like, um, cause grief is universal, right? We are all going to experience grief in our life. Right. And one of the things that I,
00:27:47
Speaker
like about being a therapist is it's about relationship and connection with one another. We're all looking for in our life, in our world, about connecting to other people and creating good relationships. That's what gives us energy. That's what feeds our soul. So grief encompasses all of that. The reason why there's pain and grief is because there's love there. If there wasn't love, there wouldn't be so much pain. That's what makes grief so strong.
Personal Grief Experiences
00:28:16
Speaker
You know, besides the infertility, I've also experienced grief with the death of my father, you know, 15 years ago after a long illness with Parkinson's disease. And then through that time of just, you know, help my mom through that and then moving my mom down here because she had Alzheimer's and walking through that disease with her for five years until she passed away in July of 2021.
00:28:45
Speaker
you know, and, and really looking at my own grief and how I connected with that. And just, I just felt like there was this energy that I got and was able to give to my clients because I've experienced losses too. Um, so that's kind of why, you know, I've, I kind of like working with grief and I know there's a lot of therapists that don't that they, because there's a heaviness to it, right? Cause it can be draining because part of that process,
00:29:15
Speaker
of grief treatment. I mean, there's a whole lots of different things we can do, but some of that is the journey and walking side by side with somebody and knowing that sometimes there isn't anything I can do specifically to make them feel better. However, the process of me being present and how we're processing and how we're talking about the person we've lost and some of the exercise that we do,
00:29:44
Speaker
It's through that that's healing, right? And that's what I like to see is to be able to see there is another side we come out of, you know, that the way you're feeling right now is not how you're going to stay right now. Yeah. And, and giving people hope with that because they, there's people that think I'll never be joyful again. You know, I'll never see my family the same way again. I'll never be that same person again, which is true.
00:30:15
Speaker
There's a, as far as being the same person, but you will have joy again. And I think helping people through that to find how do I find that element of
Grief's Variability
00:30:25
Speaker
hope? How do I move forward? Right. And, and, and, and teaching them that this is a marathon. This is not a sprint. This is not, you know, again, like I said before, people kind of come in going, okay, I want to get this work done because I can't stand feeling this way. And I got, I've got things to do.
00:30:42
Speaker
So just working with them and being able to slow down a little bit and being able to teach them a little bit about what's going on and learning how to be gentle with yourself.
00:30:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And also we think, um, so I've, I've shared before that I worked in hospice for a really long time. And part of my role there was to follow up with the family, even after our patient had passed away, we would offer bereavement services for, um, a year or more afterwards. And one of the things that I would, would hear from people a lot was,
00:31:21
Speaker
that the grief that they held, whether it was sadness or depression or anger, whatever it is that seemed like they were really, really holding tight to,
00:31:35
Speaker
When we talked about what releasing that feeling would be like, they would share that it felt like, but this is all I have left of this person. And I feel like if I let this go, I'm letting go of the last thing that I had. This is my feeling of them now. And if I let it go, I won't feel anything.
00:31:54
Speaker
And there was almost a feeling of if I re-engage in life and I allow myself to feel joy again, if I allow myself to laugh again, it feels like I'm betraying them because they're not here to laugh anymore. I would hear that all the time, a feeling of the first time I laughed after someone passed away, I immediately felt so much guilt because it was a feeling of how could I be enjoying something when this loss happened?
00:32:22
Speaker
How do you work with people through that kind of thought process? Well, and I think that's a really good point, um, is, is to be able to, there's a couple things, right? And, and, and asking what would that loved one want you to be doing right now? What would that loved one say to you right now about that? You know, and oftentimes all here, Oh, they would, they would want me to,
00:32:50
Speaker
you know, go out with my friends or, you know, go to that family reunion, you know, they would want me to be happy.
Therapeutic Tools: Journaling
00:32:58
Speaker
You know, I'll hear some of that. I'll also remind them that, you know, that we are in the land of the living, you know, um, and that it's okay to live. And part of that holding on is because we want connection, right? If I hold on to that feeling,
00:33:17
Speaker
Because they also hear a lot of times, I'm afraid I'm going to forget memories. I'm afraid I'm going to forget their laugh, what they look like, all of that. And one of the things that I encourage people to do is get a journal that you just write down those memories. You just let them flow, all those positive things that you want to remember. Or print out the picture, look at the videos. We have a lot of technology nowadays that we can go back and hear the person's voice and things like that.
00:33:46
Speaker
To be able to do that right and to be able to one of the things I did when my mom died is I Journaled about as if I was talking to her. I wrote down all the things that I appreciated about her You know the little it's the funniest the little things and so For those of the people folks out there that have had people that they knew they were gonna lose Let's see a chronic illness and we knew it was coming
00:34:15
Speaker
you're still grieving when they die, right? You grieve along the way, like with Alzheimer's, you grieve along the way with a long goodbye of every little adjustment and change that needs to be, you know, solved for. But then when somebody actually dies, you grieve again, like, right? It's not that, oh, I knew this was coming, why am I so upset? Well, I'm so upset because it's actually final, right? And there's a part of us that if you've never lost anybody, you're having your first loss,
00:34:44
Speaker
It's kind of, it's a whole new thing. Like this is really final. Like this party knows that, but there's a little kid inside of there too. I used to tell my hospice patients, um, when they, when we would talk about anticipatory grief, which is, you know, that this illness is terminal, you know, that we're getting close, I would always say this will not come as a surprise,
Existential Reflections in Grief
00:35:07
Speaker
but it will come as a shock.
00:35:10
Speaker
there is no way not to feel a feeling of shock when it actually happens, no matter how much time you've had to prepare, even if it's years, it's still going to feel shocking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That also makes me think of, um, I lost a good friend in 2020. He was killed in a car wreck and I felt all the feelings, right? Like definitely sadness, definitely anger. But I remember one thing that,
00:35:40
Speaker
overwhelming feeling for me was just confusion. Like I had such a hard time like wrapping my mind around death and the finality of it and the permanency, right? Like kind of like you're talking about.
00:35:57
Speaker
And I feel like that's a layer of it that we don't talk very openly about is that when we lose someone, it does, it makes us think about our own mortality, right? Like it makes us ask those really big questions of what if I died?
00:36:15
Speaker
Where would I go? What's beyond this? But also just, I remember a really strong feeling of that's just it. Like it just, my brain could not comprehend death in that moment. I thought about, he was a fellow social worker. So I thought about like, what about his clients that are depending on him? What about like, what do we do with his stuff? You know, we were cleaning out his condo and it was kind of like, what do we do with all this stuff?
00:36:44
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's an element that a lot of times people again Feel guilt for thinking about I definitely did because I was like why am I thinking about me right now? This is not about me, but I couldn't help it I couldn't help not to like try to wrap my mind around life and death right Right, and that's totally normal Because because when we experienced stuff like that it does make us reflect inward it does make us think of our own mortality and
00:37:11
Speaker
What does that mean for me? Because it reminds us that we too are mortal, and we too will also die someday. And for some people, that creates a lot of anxiety. For other people, and sometimes that depends on where you are with spirituality. And some people, that's comforting. They believe that they're going to go to heaven, and that's OK. Whenever my time is my time, then I'm good with that.
00:37:40
Speaker
But some people don't have that kind of spiritual base. And so there is this element of, gosh, what is going to happen after this, this unknown, right? It's like, I know what's going on here, here and now, my own community and my own space and my own world that I've created for myself. But outside of this, I don't know anything else. So I think that can be really scary for people. Absolutely. And that makes me want to stick in there, stick in here.
00:38:11
Speaker
that there can be a lot of well-intended, but generally very unhelpful things that I hear a lot of people say. I think in general to say things like,
00:38:27
Speaker
this was God's plan or God needed his angel in heaven or something that gives people the message that, I don't know, do you know what I'm talking about? People make some really well-intended comments that make it seem like
00:38:45
Speaker
It's a good thing that the person is gone. And I think that that can just be incredibly infuriating for a lot of people to say, I don't want to think that it was God's plan for my loved one not to be here. Especially if it's a really sudden death that the person is really young. Like that to me causes a lot of friction spiritually to think of like, I can't, I never want to hear anything like that. Right, right.
Being Present for the Grieving
00:39:11
Speaker
Yeah. You know, what we find too is that,
00:39:14
Speaker
People are uncomfortable with it. They have an experience, right? It's your friends. I hear a lot of times the surprise that their closest friends were the ones that stayed away after their loss because they didn't know what to say. I hear that a lot. I stayed away because I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do, right? Or they make these little comments that they think is going to be helpful, but actually it just falls very flat.
00:39:43
Speaker
And it kind of gives the idea of you don't get it, right? You don't understand where I'm coming from at all, you know? So sometimes, you know, it can be as simple as, I'm so sorry for your loss. You know, that is something you can say, or you just come right out and say, you know what? I don't have the words. I don't know what to say, but I'm going to sit here with you. Yes. That is like 95% of it right there. It's just sit there with them.
00:40:12
Speaker
You know, and just listen, you know, and if they want to cry, let them cry. If they want to just sit there, if they want to just watch a movie with you, then just watch a movie. But just to have some presence there that says I'm here without even having to say the word.
00:40:29
Speaker
Absolutely. And not going into it with, I need to make them feel better because there is nothing you can do to make somebody feel better. It's just not possible. There's nothing you can say that takes that pain away, but your presence, you're just like, like you said, just sitting with them and just being with them and offering them that safe space to be able to say, if you're angry, I'll hear it. If you're sad, I'll hear it.
00:40:58
Speaker
that I can handle whatever, you're safe to have whatever feeling that you're having with me. And I won't try to change that for you. It's such an incredibly powerful gift that you can give people while they're grieving. And so whether it's a friend or a family member, just like remind yourself, I don't have to say anything. Should I try to make them feel better about this? In fact, if I try, if I try to do that, I'm probably, it's probably going to fall flat. Like you said, right? Right. Offer something completely different. Yeah.
00:41:29
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even the vet, everyone says, let me know what you need. You know, a lot of people are, they're not going to let you know what they need. You know, sometimes it's putting into action. If you know your neighbor just lost somebody and, you know, go over and cut their grass. You know, a lot of us want to do something to support, but we don't know what to do. Right. And sometimes it's just an act of service. It's just being able to go over and, you know, cut that grass.
00:41:57
Speaker
for them or take their child to soccer practice. There's other things that we can actually do versus even conversation.
00:42:10
Speaker
Yeah, and I think you're right too. A lot of times after the funeral or the service or after the, like everybody just kind of goes back to life. And I think that a lot of times that's when people feel a little bit lonely with their grief, right? So making sure that you continue to follow up on someone.
00:42:30
Speaker
It can be hard and it can feel awkward and it can, you can, you can have that feeling of, I don't know what to say. Um, but all you have to do is reach out and say, I'm still here. I'm still thinking about you. I know it's been six weeks. It's been three months. It's been however long, but you're still on my mind. Um, like making sure you continue to check in and don't just assume that, Oh, other people have it. I know they have other people around. Yeah.
00:42:55
Speaker
Yeah. Or assume that if I mentioned their name that they are, I'm going to get upset. I'm going to upset them. So I don't want to say anything. They want to hear your loved ones name. They want to hear their, their husband's Joe's name or their daughter Sue or whoever they want to hear the name. Cause they hear a lot of them. They don't want them to be forgotten, especially children, parents that have lost children.
Maintaining Memory
00:43:18
Speaker
It's really important that, that they feel remembered.
00:43:22
Speaker
that their name is said, that they were actually in this world, right? So it's important to be able to do that. And let's just say, hey, I can't make it to the funeral or I couldn't be there. Go after that. Some of the most meaningful visits were a month or two after somebody had died. I know when my father died, good friends and my parents for all of our years growing up, they came in like six to eight weeks after. They didn't come down for the service, but they came in.
00:43:52
Speaker
And that's what my mother needed at that time, right? It's being able to say, you know, okay, we don't have to just check, oh, I didn't make it. No, go later. Be there when, like you said, people start kind of fading away. They're going back to their own lives and they just think, oh, well, it's over now. It's been this amount of time. So she should be okay. Um, it's really important that we do maintain that connection and that checking in.
00:44:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Coping Strategies for Holidays
00:44:23
Speaker
So do you have any, I don't know, like words of encouragement or tips or thoughts that you would want to share with someone who just feels like they're nervous about this holiday season or they're just kind of in, they feel like they're in the trenches, they're in the pit of their grief. Do you have anything that you would want to say to them today? I would encourage them to
00:44:50
Speaker
get support, you know, from friends and family, let people know how they're feeling, you know, come up with that plan. If I know Thanksgiving was our favorite holiday or Christmas or whatnot, that to go ahead and start making that plan now of however we want it to look like, you know, and just prepare yourself like that, you know, some people say, you know what, I'm not going to do anything this year. I'm not going to put decorations out or I'm not going to do
00:45:17
Speaker
You know, that that's the decision you make. If that's what you need to do, then that's OK. You know, and to understand that it's all right to be able to do that. You know, I'd also encourage you to look at support groups. There's also a grief share group I'm doing right now as part of a co-leader that meets through the beginning of December. But there are a lot of times there's grief share groups that start off
00:45:45
Speaker
all across this area, you could just look it up or ongoing support groups to be able to do that. But to be able to create something that makes sense for you right now.
00:46:00
Speaker
Yeah.
Grief Support Groups
00:46:01
Speaker
Sure. A little bit more about, um, support groups with grief because I think that that's, if I were ever going to recommend a support group, that's like one of the number one reasons why I would, because I think that there's something really healing about, um, grieving collectively, even with strangers, but feeling like other people are carrying the same burden that you are. So speaking, can you speak a little bit more about just what it's like to be a part of a grief group?
00:46:28
Speaker
Yeah, I think what it does is it creates some validation. And also, since a lot of people, when they come into a group setting, they could be in different places in their grief, right? They could be feeling like they're still in shock, or they could feel like, hey, you know, I feel connected, I feel like they're just in different places, right? So it's helpful to hear from other people about, oh, okay, this is what, you know, they're going through, maybe there's some hope for me.
00:46:57
Speaker
Or they're validated because, oh my gosh, I feel the same way. And then you're somebody else saying that. So there's a lot of validation and normalizing that occurs to kind of lower the anxiety level that we could be experiencing in grief, right? That we need to feel that we're with other people that get us. That I don't have to put on everywhere else that I'm going, I've got to wear this mask and I got to be okay at work or I got to be okay for my kids or I got to be okay
00:47:27
Speaker
because people expect me to be okay.
Self-Compassion and Healing
00:47:30
Speaker
The thing about support groups, you just kind of come as you are and you get that support. And sometimes there's a topic that you discuss or sometimes it might be kind of a free flowing set up. There's different support groups like if you are dealing with someone that they've died from suicide, that there's support groups out there that are specifically for that.
00:47:56
Speaker
You know, um, those, like you said in hospice, you know, I've, you know, hospice runs and support groups for those that I've experienced, you know, the loss through that. So there's different ones out there. And sometimes they kind of, there might be little gaps where there's not one running, but then they'll, it'll pick up and run, you know, so you just kind of have to do a little bit of research. Yeah. Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is be gentle with yourself.
00:48:24
Speaker
Yeah. Know that wherever you are in your grief, it's okay that there is not another place that you should be.
00:48:33
Speaker
and get support. Don't try to go at this alone. Whether it's people you already know in your family and community friend group, whether it's through a church or an organization, whether it's through finding a support group, or obviously working with a therapist to have that one on one time to help you safely learn to sit with those feelings so that you are going through it and not just trying to go around it and avoid it. That there is, there is hope for
00:49:05
Speaker
healing and knowing that it doesn't always, it won't always feel this way. Right. Yeah. Right. That's a good solution. Yeah.
Final Thoughts and Resources
00:49:14
Speaker
Okay. One final question before we wrap things up. This is the question that I ask everybody. If you could go back and tell your younger self one thing and not necessarily around grief and loss or anything like that, but if you could go back and tell her one thing with all of your wisdom and life experience now, what would it be?
00:49:36
Speaker
to be more type B. And enjoy the mountaintop moments, but also even enjoy the moments in the valley, because they will ebb and flow throughout your life. And to know that things will always work out the way they should. I love that.
00:50:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So all the things that we tried so hard to control and hold on to to be able to take a deep breath and it'll happen the way it's supposed to happen. Yeah. I love that. I mean, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate this conversation. And I do hope that as we go into this holiday season, anybody that's listening, um, if this resonates with you,
00:50:26
Speaker
I hope this helps. I hope it offers a little bit of encouragement and I hope it also prompts you to make sure that you do have the support that you need. So I'll make sure to link all the resources that Amy talked about for the share group and her as well in the show notes. So make sure that you check her out as well. But I think that's all we have for you guys today. I hope everybody has a good week and we'll talk to you next week. Bye. Bye.
00:51:00
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of outside of session. Remember, while I am a licensed therapist, this podcast is not a substitute for individual therapy. The contents of this episode are for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you are having a mental health emergency, please dial 911 for immediate assistance or dial 988 for the suicide and crisis lifeline.