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Queer Mental Health - Part 1
74 Plays2 years ago
On this episode of The Plainly Queer Podcast, we spotlight Queer Mental Health, specifically focusing on internalised and externalised homophobia and minority stress. Through our personal stories, we illuminate these complex issues, fostering understanding and collective healing.
Join us in this raw and real discussion about the mental health challenges faced by the LGBTQ+ community. In Part 2, we'll explore therapy strategies for building resilience.
Please note, this episode discusses potentially distressing topics. Engage mindfully and seek professional help if needed.
Thank you for being part of our Plainly Queer community.
Below is a list of these resources for easy reference:
Book: The Queer Mental Health Handbook by Brendan J. Dunlop - An excellent resource for understanding and navigating mental health issues in the LGBTQ+ community.
Online or In-person Therapies: Insight Matters - a fantastic resource providing Queer affirming online and in-person therapeutic support.
Visit www.insightmatters.ie for more information.
LGBTQ+ community support in Ireland: https://lgbt.ie/
LGBTQ+ Youth Support in Ireland: https://www.belongto.org/
Transgender Equality Network Ireland: https://teni.ie/
Phone Help Lines:
- Samaritans: 24-hour service – freephone 116 123, www.dublinsamaritans.ie
- Childline: 24-hour service – 1800 66 66 66, www.childline.ie
- Teenline: 8 pm-midnight – 1800 833 634, www.teenline.ie
- Aware (Depression): 1890 303 302, www.aware.ie
- Pieta House (Self-Harm/Suicide Support): 01-6010000, www.pieta.ie
- Bodywhys (Eating Disorders): 1890 200 444, www.bodywhys.ie
- Console (Suicide Bereavement Support): 1800 247 247, www.console.ie
- Grow (Mental Health Support Groups): 1890 474 474, www.grow.ie
- Alcoholics Anonymous: www.alcoholicsanonymous.ie
- Drugs/HIV Helpline: 1800 459 459 www.hse.ie/drugshivhelpline
- Rape Crisis Network Ireland: 24-hour helpline 1800 77 88 88 www.rapecrisishelp.ie
Crisis Text Line: Text HELLO to 50808 to connect with a crisis counsellor who can provide support and help connect you to further resources.
Remember, you're not alone, and there are resources and people who want to help. So please reach out if you're in need.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Queer Mental Health
00:00:01
Speaker
Okay, here we are, and we welcome to the Plainly Queer podcast. In this episode, Paul and I will be talking about queer mental health. Say hello, Paul. Hi, everyone. Hello, pod partner. Hello, pod partner. Yeah, pod partner. That sounds good. Yeah, you enjoy that. But it sounds kind of like, you know, in a polyamory sort of way as well. So like, let's just say it's podcasting partner, not anything else, just in case, you know,
00:00:32
Speaker
We don't want to get it too confused. Rumors will be starting. I know. We've only, we're only at the gate and rumors are already starting. So, oh well. Rumors are good, you know? Okay. So clear mental health.
Understanding Internalized Homophobia
00:00:43
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. So throw something out there.
00:00:47
Speaker
Throw something out there. So what do we want to talk about? So there's a couple of topics in this. There is internalized homophobia and how that affects stress. There is minority stress and how this all comes out. External homophobia for obvious reasons. There is, well coming out, we've already covered that in one of the episodes. So how do you feel about internalized homophobia?
00:01:16
Speaker
Internalized homophobia. This is something that I suppose I struggled to grasp when I first heard of it. And because you kind of think about, it's all about what comes at you and you don't realize what you're perpetuating within yourself. These feelings of that, that hatred or that kind of anger, that frustration just turned against yourself.
00:01:40
Speaker
I suppose what is the internal homophobia? Have we got a definition? Have you got a definition of internalized homophobia? I've got a definition, let me see. I have something here. So internalized, so the internalized negative attitudes towards one's own sexuality and gender identity. So in that sense, it can lead to obviously self-loathing and self-esteem, but it's basically, so it's everything that is in
00:02:06
Speaker
say touching on this again but like when you're growing up and you you hear the word queer but it's in the negative or you hear the word faggot and you're basically being you know cooked in a culture or cooked in a world that says these things are bad and then as you're growing up you start to go oh my god I'm those things that people said were bad and then I start to internalize I must be bad and I think as well you know if you're not
00:02:34
Speaker
you know, in the queer community, if you're not near people like you, if you don't see people like you, that is not challenged for a very long time until you start to come into your own, until you start coming into meeting people that are in that world and living openly, happily, without judgment. And, you know, it's not the worst case scenario that you've been told your whole life.
00:03:01
Speaker
But like that, like what you said there, you may not know you have these feelings about yourself. What's the, do you remember panty bliss in the call? Checking yourself. Yes. Yes. I always think of that. And I would have done that. I better check myself. This is why we don't know what this, I think it's a call. Nobel call.
00:03:22
Speaker
No, this is why we should not ever go to Panty Bar again. I know. Panty, if you're listening, we're really sorry. I'm going to... No good call. It's the no good call. I knew it was some sort of call. Yeah, no good call. But that was very impassioned. I remember watching that. And I think, yeah, it's nice to go back to that because it was such a pivotal moment and such a pivotal speech. It was that checking yourself and just...
00:03:49
Speaker
I remember it was like stopping at the traffic lights, wasn't it? And it was kind of just checking yourself, just how you are in the space and having to constantly do that. Yeah. Yeah. And I definitely would have done that. I didn't want to be seen as, um, queer or I didn't want to be seen as being, when I was younger, being a dyke was the worst thing you could possibly be as a lesbian. It's like, it was some sort of you, you, you
00:04:18
Speaker
I don't know what it was. You looked bad or you looked butch or you looked whatever and it's just that's not what you wanted and I was, well, is that what it means? If I'm queer and I come out, am I butch? And then I started to check myself going, well, what is butch? What does that look like? And there was that internalized piece that I was grappling with and checking myself for going, well, I don't want to do that. I don't want to look like that. And then
00:04:44
Speaker
Obviously that took years of undoing, unlearning and processing going, that was never mine. And there's nothing wrong with it in the first place. If you're, there's all these ways of being in the world, none of them are wrong. It's just, it's just the way you are.
Masculinity, Femininity, and Validation
00:05:01
Speaker
Oh yeah. I think even as you're talking, what's going on for me is this whole thing in the gay world, masculine and feminine. And that's this whole thing that to be a gay man and be
00:05:11
Speaker
a feminist and then there's the other side of us to be masked and the masculine guys would kind of really in a way look down on the feminine guys as in there's that whole thing going on and that is that internalized homophobia and that's the kind of the the shame and the anger and everything like that it's kind of yeah it's really destructive and I there's a really good book I don't know I recommend it I
00:05:38
Speaker
said this to you a while ago, I don't know if you kind of looked it up, it's very good. The Velvet Rage. I think it's Alan Brown's name. Yeah. And a very good book about internalised homophobia and shame and basically living kind of really inauthentically in life, as in going through life, looking for this validation, constantly looking for validation and not when you don't get that validation or
00:06:08
Speaker
authentic validation. There's inauthentic validation, but that doesn't serve you any purpose. And you keep kind of doing these things. And I think he gave the, he gave the example of these kind of this gay man giving lavish dinner parties and throwing these big fancy soirees and having their designer homes and their designer kind of brands. Having the look. Having the look.
00:06:35
Speaker
but it's totally inauthentic validation and it just fuels that kind of fire within that velvet rage. And it's actually kind of that authentic validation. But it's so difficult to actually do something for yourself. You have to kind of have a sense of yourself and do things for yourself.
00:07:02
Speaker
You know, I am most definitely queer and, and I had to figure out what that meant for me. And I, I, that was, I mean, I suppose, listen, everybody's becoming story is a figuring out story, but if you have a lot of representation examples, all of that sort of stuff, it's going to be a little bit easier, I think. But if you don't, you, you go searching, hopefully you search in the right places and it's okay and it's safe, but sometimes it may
Challenges of Non-Heteronormative Lives
00:07:30
Speaker
not be.
00:07:30
Speaker
And then you get that more shame. Go on yet, you're going to say something. I think when we're talking about that blueprint and we have the freedom to go and be who we want to be, and then you're kind of crap, who, who do I want to be? But you're kind of like, okay, if I choose not to have children or to go down the road of adoption, or I choose to be kind of solo in life, what is there in that? And can, can I find contentment in that? Is the world?
00:08:00
Speaker
going to be a safe space if I choose that. Because if you think about it, in that situation, the world is a lonely place. The heteronormative kind of blueprint, you have children, you have a partner, and you're set for life. It works out well for them as well. You've got this thing to do. You've got these distractions. Of course, there's happiness and there's fulfillment and there's purpose in those distractions.
00:08:25
Speaker
But that's what life is. We're here to procreate if you break it down. Biologically. And then I like to think of gay people as like X-Men came along and they're like the mutated genes. It's probably just mother nature kind of population control. But where am I going with this? I suppose. I don't know. We're going into genes and mother nature. It wasn't fair for that. What I'm saying is the kind of we're talking about mental health. And if you think about it, we
00:08:55
Speaker
Being in following a heteronormative narrative is a cause for stress, anxiety, depression. That's all being kind of proven. Queer individuals are more prone to mental health issues as they progress through life as a result of being a minority. The inner authenticness of it, yeah. Exactly. But then, okay, so go be who you want to be.
00:09:20
Speaker
But then there's also anxiety in that, and there's also kind of, oh my god, okay, what do I be? What can I be?
00:09:29
Speaker
But there's also, when you go do that, when you go be you, and it's different from the norm, and I'm, you know, inverted commas here, the norm, you are judged, you are checking yourself, you are called out, or you're just more exposed now. And that is another layer of what can affect stress levels. Walking down the street, am I going to be okay today?
00:09:55
Speaker
and now that's something I've never had to contend with, but that is what a lot of queer people have to contend with if they go outside the norm. And it's not, again, I talk about language, it isn't the norm. The heteronormative was just something that, gosh, I was going to say, I was going to get into a topic of religion there that the church had a lot to do with that, but
00:10:18
Speaker
I won't go down that rabbit hole. That'll be a conversation for another day, maybe, but definitely everybody being themselves is what's wrong.
Living Authentically and Self-Care
00:10:27
Speaker
If we could wrap our heads around that. And I know what you're going to come back and say to me is, oh, I'm living in the La La land again. Oh, you don't know me. You don't know. Maybe I mixed it up and try something different. No, no, I do understand that I suppose, but yeah.
00:10:47
Speaker
No, listen, you're not living in La La Land. It's great to have hope. We have to have hope. But I suppose it's going out on your own and being your own person and being authentic to yourself is isolating. Just by definition of what it is, it's isolation. You're going away from making other people happy to just making yourself happy.
00:11:14
Speaker
It's, I suppose it's a form of kind of like, it's selfish in a way. It's like, oh, I'm going to live my life for myself and I'm going to be authentic. It's the best self care. Yeah. The more you're you, the more happy you are, the more you are, if you've ever been in the company of somebody who's just themselves, who's living their best lives is the way that they needed to be.
00:11:36
Speaker
That is infectious. That is, for me, that is the goal. And there's nothing selfish about that. Do you believe they've had to sacrifice relationships to get that way? To be that way? Well, it depends. Yes. Like, I mean, yes, there is probably, if you turn around and you say, I'm no longer able to do this anymore, I cannot live a lie or I cannot live in a way that keeps you happy and me unhappy. And that person is, but I only like you this way.
00:12:06
Speaker
then you will lose them, but what have you lost? It is a loss and there is a grieving process, don't get me wrong. But it's, gosh, is it a bit like dead weight? You know, they're holding me back. I suppose if we had to kind of, I think about this myself, how much of what we do is for other people, is to kind of, but not even helping other people, but appeasing other people are to kind of
00:12:36
Speaker
You know what I'm trying to say? It's kind of like how much of what we do is not actually in our best interests, but it's to gain favor of others.
00:12:46
Speaker
and to kind of navigate through life with relationship. There's the benefits of therapy. Do you know what I mean? There's where the awareness comes in. It's like that piece, what is it? I don't know. You know, how is it I'm acting that is just so automatic that I'm just, I've done this my whole life. And then you get the wake up call and you go, actually, I don't want to do this anymore. I actually don't enjoy living my life in a way that is to make others okay, to make others just so. It's not that I'm right there.
00:13:16
Speaker
kicking dogs or cursing at toddlers but at the same time it's like you've got to when you when you have awareness of who you are what your likes are genuinely just for yourself when was the last time somebody asked you who you were who i was oh why don't you ask me who are you who am i
00:13:41
Speaker
I do a lot of journaling. Well, I have phases. I'll go through phases of journaling and then I'll go a couple of weeks without it. I tend to kind of lean into it when I need it, but I done my epitaph once. One of these things was to write your eulogy for yourself and to write your epitaph as in what would be on your kind of your gravestone.
00:14:03
Speaker
Oh, I think it was, who are you? I'm, I'm a holy, no, I should dig this out. I should get my journal and dig it out. We'll try and add this in. Definitely. Cause I want to hear this, but how do you figure you? Oh, because you, you kind of, who, how do you want to be remembered? Who are you? How do you want to be remembered? And I think.
00:14:28
Speaker
a wholly complicated individual or something is what it was. And I know I am, I'm really complex and kind of, that's just who I am, but oh, I wish I'd bring my journal next time and I'll try and kind of think that in. I look forward to it, yeah. Yeah. One of the ways, as you were talking there about writing the epitaph, I think that's brilliant. And what comes up for me, sometimes what I would say, we get the question, was it terrible as you get the question going, I don't know what it is I want, I don't know where I'm at or,
00:14:56
Speaker
really confused with what is it I should be doing or these sorts of things. And it's okay. Well, what would your perfect day look like? If you could wave a magic wand and like make it practical as in it's not like living in the Seychelles and private planes and that sort of stuff. Well, it may be if that's what you want, but does it include working? And if it includes working, does it include friends? What friends? So what time do you want to get up on in a day?
00:15:24
Speaker
What is it your morning would look like in a perfect morning? What is your workday? If you could magic wand the perfect workday for yourself, what would it look like? And just play it out. Have dinner with those friends. And then you start to go, OK, well, what are the parts of that that you can actively do now? And then start building your life around it. There are very good tips there, Clodagh.
00:15:51
Speaker
I like the way you balance this with actually professional level advice. And I'm here thinking, ask me that question again, cause I've got the answer now. Do you? Okay. Who are you Paul? I am a bloody mess. I am a mess. I'm a disaster. I'm all those things, but I'm also accomplished and I'm also grateful. And yeah, I just, I'm contradictions. That's what I am. I'm one big master contradiction.
00:16:22
Speaker
I think that's so human, you know? And especially, okay, so here are two therapists talking and you go, oh, they definitely have their lives together. They definitely know and all of this sort of stuff. And cause this is what they do all day, every day. And like, you know, I have good days. Oh, Jesus Christ. There are days where I'm like, you need to go talk to somebody. You know, it is, I am complicated. I am grateful for my life, but I actually,
00:16:49
Speaker
A couple of years ago as well, using that piece, what would my day look like? I broke that down and then I was, okay, well, how do I want my life to go? And I started doing it in this most smallest of ways that I could. And it takes time. It takes effort. It takes real honesty with yourself. But if you are in any way kind to yourself, if you can love yourself even a little bit, I think that's worth investing in. And again, start with the day.
00:17:20
Speaker
What time would you get up? Who would you talk to? What foods would you eat? What music would you listen to? And if the job you're doing right now isn't the job you want in that day, okay, how could I look at that? What can I do
Depression in the Queer Community
00:17:33
Speaker
with that? Do you know what someone's listening going? This is very podcast-y advice. This is like that advice. Sounds great in practice. It's kind of difficult. And it is. Making those small changes can be so difficult, but I... Yeah.
00:17:47
Speaker
I do think what you're saying is so true. You start with the smallest of things and it's like a snowball. It's going to roll and roll and get bigger and bigger. You want to feel better and better about it. And listen, life's not perfect. Life is tough. You have to work so hard these days to kind of to just live in the lifestyle that we've all become accustomed to, even to pay your electricity bill now. You know, that kind of way is also difficult. So finding those
00:18:18
Speaker
things to make your property day can be difficult, but like that, it's a little... But if you don't know what it looks like, you're going to get to another five years or 10 years and not having looked at it, not having understood it, not having checked it out. So even just the first step, check it out. What is it for? But yeah, that's my podcast advice for today, folks. That's amazing podcast advice.
00:18:48
Speaker
Anyway, another topic close to this will be the externalized homophobia. So we've looked at the internalized, which is kind of as a result of externalized, which is. Turned against the self. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to think, I'm trying to remember have I. There's actually something that's come into my mind just as we say that. And I know we've talked about shame and suffering.
00:19:14
Speaker
there's a quote that i remember i put into an essay i think last year like that depression is anger turned against the self oh wow yeah there was something around there was a theory or a concept that depression was anger turned against the self yeah i don't know why that came into my head but i think it just kind of the internalized homophobia and that that shame and the anger and just
00:19:44
Speaker
that self kind of loathing. It is true in a way. I mean, I know I'm not lessening depression. It's the big cloud that kind of can descend and it just is so hard to see the light through it. Yeah, let's talk about depression.
00:20:04
Speaker
Yeah, great. But you know what, you're more likely to suffer from depression in the queer community than in the heteronormative. The numbers say that it is more likely and for a lot of reasons, including the internalized, externalized homophobia, the heteronormativity, the lack of legal and social protections, even health disparities. So there is loads that lead into why depression is more likely.
00:20:34
Speaker
I think as well, for a long number of years, and I think we're only kind of out of the cloud of this, is that your depression was caused by being queer. It's not natural. It's not right. You shouldn't be doing it. All of this sort of stuff, if you went for help, even conversion therapy, was to try and get you out of it, which was all perpetuating the depression.
00:20:58
Speaker
if you are able to live your life the way you need to live it, that goes a hell of a long way to inviting happiness into your life. And you really have to think as well that it's totally environment as well, especially in relation to kind of mental health issues because it can be hereditary, it can be in our genes and it's totally our environment then that kind of activates it or triggers it and sometimes
00:21:27
Speaker
there's not much you can do about your environment. And that can be a really, a really terrible situation when you can't take yourself out of the environment that's causing you the distress. And I suppose that is where kind of, I guess, therapy can come in and forms of therapy and just like that you touched on self care.
00:21:49
Speaker
But the importance of naming that, you know, the importance of what you've just named there. Like for somebody who doesn't realize, oh, why am I depressed? There's something wrong with me. Why can't I just get over this? Why can't I just be happy or anything like that? And being able to name your environment is actually quite toxic. Your environment is not conducive to you living your life the way that you need to.
00:22:13
Speaker
And that's what's causing depression. That's what's really hard at the moment. It's not something wrong with you. Depression isn't something wrong with a person. It is a symptom of something. And I think that's really, again, what you've just said, if you can name that and somebody can really own that, it can
00:22:32
Speaker
It can lessen the shame. It can lessen the guilt of I shouldn't be this way. I should be able to get on and be happy and all of these things. And hopefully as well talk about it. I'm really struggling in this situation.
Personal Experiences and Resources
00:22:45
Speaker
Not, I'm not okay. It's okay. Obviously it's okay to say I'm not okay, but the point is putting the blame on yourself versus I'm having a really bad reaction to a really tough environment. So normal.
00:23:01
Speaker
Oh, totally. And I think my own experience of kind of depressive symptoms would be that just not wanting to get up, not wanting to get out of bed, just kind of acknowledging that I feel awful right now. Literally, I don't want to get out of bed and you're constantly telling yourself, trying to fight it. You're trying to fight it going, okay, get out of bed, get out of bed and do something. Get out of bed and do something. No, don't want to get out of bed and do something. And you kind of, you spend hours doing that and it can be hard to get out of it.
00:23:30
Speaker
And I suppose, like you said, the important thing is to not beat yourself up about it. Like sometimes life, as Ronan Keating said, is a rollercoaster and you will go through up and down, natural up and down. We just lost a lot of people on that. Thank you very much. Any of the listeners, oh my God, they're quoting Ronan Keating now. Okay. I apologize Paul's behalf for that.
00:23:57
Speaker
There's no apologies. That was a very good reference. I actually love that song. I love life as a rollercoaster. Such a shoot. But yes, no. Yeah. Life can be difficult, but I suppose, like you said, it's in those moments. It can be tough to get yourself out of it. I sometimes I think of like depressive episodes as like this sludge. It's really hard to move in it and it's really hard to get yourself going in it.
00:24:26
Speaker
And sometimes as well, there's that darkness and you just can't see the light. No matter how hard you try to look for the light, it's so hard to find it. And yeah, that's why mental health, it's just so important to just look out for it. Recognize yourself when you feel like that. You tap into yourself, say, OK, I'm depressed at the moment. I'm going through this little bit of a low patch and
00:24:55
Speaker
just to kind of be compassionate to yourself, be understanding, but to say, it's okay that I'm like this. It's okay not to be okay. And sit with that, be with that. And if you can't get through it, or you're kind of really at a low point, then reach out. There's always therapy, there's always your GP, there's avenues like that, because no one
00:25:18
Speaker
has to go through stuff alone. There's always support there. And actually, what I might do is at the end of this episode on the show notes, I'll add in a couple of resources of where you can reach out. So there's loads of resources in definitely an Irish context that I will add in so people can, if you are in need, check them out and do talk to somebody.
00:25:40
Speaker
because it's normally, if we leave it inside our heads and we leave it inside our heads with shame, guilt, and all of this blame, it can get really dark. So do share it with somebody and shed some light on. I like that. Shed some light. I was going to touch on something. What was it? Yes, I'd want to go back to journaling because I'll give out my little. I really recommend journaling to everyone and anyone. It's a great form of
00:26:10
Speaker
therapy for yourself. You literally sit down with your thoughts. It's a dialogue with yourself directly for you get whatever's in your head out on a page. And it's just for you. Yeah, just for you for no one else. Lock it away in a drawer. And it's nice to have that kind of outlet just to kind of write stuff down. Some people do audio ones as well, where you kind of record
00:26:34
Speaker
that you could basically call this journaling, I suppose. The audio ones, which seems odd considering I'm doing podcasts, but I can't stand the sound of my voice. So I'm like, no, I could not listen back to that if I needed to. Oh, what was that thing that I was going through last week? Or I'd be much more of a visual person now than I'd never listened to them back and God, I didn't know so I could say so.
00:27:01
Speaker
How do you journal? As in, it's something, it's always been recommended. It's not something I ever grow for. What I do sometimes is, if I'm going through something particularly tough, and I would have done it more so a few years ago, and I knew I was working through something, and maybe it was a depression, maybe it was something specific, but when I'm feeling good, let's say, when I'm feeling kind of, actually, I've got a bit of a handle on this. I can understand this a little bit more. I know what I need to do.
00:27:31
Speaker
I write a letter to myself when I'm not feeling great. So it's like, okay, what does that mean you need to hear when I'm really struggling? So, you know, specific issues might come up again and again and again. And it's like, we've been down this path and I still get caught. So, okay, what do I need to hear in that moment? Because it's so hard when you're in it. There's so much if you're in the fight, flight, freeze response, if you are triggered into that survival, the
00:28:01
Speaker
The brain science of this is that the front of your brain, the prefrontal cortex, goes offline. It gets turned way down in terms of its processing ability of going, huh, I don't feel great today. I actually haven't felt great for the past week. Oh, I have depression or I'm going into a depressive episode or something is happening and maybe my anxiety is going up.
00:28:23
Speaker
But when all of that is up and as started and as ramping and all of that sort of stuff, your brain does not have the capacity to go, oh, I need to do myself care here. I need to check in with somebody. I need to make sure I'm getting up at the same time every day and doing whatever. Go for a walk. Those stupid walks for my mental health that keep working raging. All of those things that I need to know and do for myself.
00:28:47
Speaker
is really hard to think about when you're in it because literally our brains are struggling to and at its most optimal level so writing a letter to myself in those moments is really helpful of going okay what are the basics what are the things that I need to do in a day that will get me through and I know and what is it I need to hear I've been here before
00:29:06
Speaker
And I know what's going on. I know the process now. Tell myself the process in that moment. It's not, it's not the worst thing. It's not the end of the world. I've been here. I've done it. This is what I've done to get out of it. Let's do it again. Yeah. I do love letters to the self. I do them every now and then when you do that little kind of pick me up. And sometimes when I'm journaling, actually I'll go from first person to third person.
Therapy and Personal Growth
00:29:30
Speaker
So I'll actually turn into a therapist and start having the session with myself. And I'll start talking in the third person about myself or start giving myself advice or talking. And then I'll switch back. It's really weird with the two kind of the brain is working in that situation. Yeah, the two hats. But it works. And you find what works for you, I suppose. OK, what's your self-care practice? If you're feeling a bit
00:29:56
Speaker
kind of low, bit down, bit anxious. What's your kind of go-to? My go-to that always works and sometimes the hardest thing is to go for a walk. And if I can get to nature, if I can get to water, that always makes me feel better. And it doesn't have to be long. So I have fibromyalgia. So my energy levels are never great at the best of times. So I literally limit it to 20 minutes. So 10 minutes in one direction, turn around and 10 minutes back.
00:30:26
Speaker
Now that doesn't feel like a lot. Sometimes it can feel like it's bloody 20 miles, nevermind 20 minutes, but when I am feeling low, feeling whatever, feeling tired, whatever, whatever's going on for me and I don't want to go for those walks and maybe it's the third day and I'm okay. Now you definitely have to go.
00:30:47
Speaker
And I'll do, I said, okay, all you have to do is 10 minutes there and 10 minutes back. That's all you have to do. And invariably I'll feel better. And by the time I even get to the first 10 minutes, I go, okay, yeah, keep going. You're fine. You're good. And I might do another 10 minutes and then come back. You know, that sort of way.
00:31:03
Speaker
But yeah, that's the most basic. But in saying that, actually, there's a lot of work that I have done. And I'm sure you are the same on this. Having gone through the training to be a therapist, but also you have to go through your own personal. The gauntless? You mean the gauntless for being a therapist? Yeah. The mental gauntless. Yeah, there's an episode on to be a therapist. Do you ever see gladiators in the 90s? It used to be on the sash of the evening, the gladiator. When you're weak at jobs and you'll be there,
00:31:33
Speaker
And that's what a training is like, trying to get the radiator going. So we'll go on, sorry.
00:31:42
Speaker
We've really dated ourselves there now. How was I gonna say that? I've lost my... My... You're thinking about good theatres, aren't you? Oh Jesus, yeah. What I was gonna say is, oh yeah, my biggest battle was myself, my own head and my own thoughts. I was one of those people who was like, you are the worst person. You are an asshole and you have to be really careful or people are gonna find out you are an asshole.
00:32:12
Speaker
And over time, shipping away that through therapy, through just increasing my awareness around how I talk to myself, that was probably the biggest self-care, that I changed how I spoke to myself.
00:32:25
Speaker
And I do that still. My relationship with myself is 10 times better than what it was, 100 times better than what it was. So I don't give out to myself anymore. I might call myself, oh, you fecking idiot, why did you do that? But I'm doing it now in a kind way rather than the, you fecking idiot, why did you do that? You're shit, you're this, you're this, you're everything under the sun. I'd pile it on top of myself and it could be over spilled milk. So that's how I care for myself. I don't,
00:32:53
Speaker
I won't talk to myself in a way that I wouldn't talk to a friend. I just wouldn't. I don't do it anymore. I think you've touched on something that's so important. It's how we speak to ourselves. And I would totally... I am not as advanced as you. I have not gotten to the stage where I'm checking myself and my brain going, no, don't talk to yourself like that. Sometimes I have to remind myself.
00:33:19
Speaker
that I'm a man. I'm not a child. Sometimes I would have very kind of be quick to emotional reactions in situations where I'm triggered. And I have to remind myself that I am actually a fully grown man. And I am not in danger in this situation. You're totally one. You're very much in control. You've gotten this far in life. It's amazing how I revert back to kind of that
00:33:48
Speaker
scared, frightened, vulnerable, younger self. And that's sometimes I feel like I have to talk to myself and say, you're a grown-ass man. Do you ever do inner child work on those? Do you? I've done a lot of personal therapy. You know yourself. You go through core training, you have to do your 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 hours. I'm probably close to 100.
00:34:17
Speaker
But for me, there is, I operate on two kind of planes, like practical plane and an emotional plane. And the two kind of, you know, that's why I'm complex in contradiction. But yeah, but I suppose for me, it's hard to go back to that place. It's hard to connect the emotion because I think it was so traumatic back there that I just totally cut myself off
00:34:46
Speaker
from the emotion. I didn't want to feel it. I didn't want to know what it was. And maybe some people would be in similar situations that grew up in kind of environments like that. But yeah, I totally wanted to detach. So it's hard for me to go back and do an intro. I probably could do it. It's something I would like to explore because in my personal therapy,
00:35:10
Speaker
I have only ever gone back a certain amount of time. Yeah, you can only do that when you feel safe. You know what I mean? There's no point going back to something you're not safe with going back to. I think it's memory for me as well. I think there's a lot of repressed memories or I just didn't hold on to them because they like that they were so awful. They were so traumatic. I just, you know, they are unconsciously kind of
00:35:36
Speaker
spinning away and affecting me in some way as I go through life, obviously, as I refer to this like younger self and a scared child. But I think that'll speak to a lot of people because a lot of people come in going, I don't have memories from my childhood. And it was because they were shut down for a lot of us. It was too scary. It was too, it's too traumatic sometimes and it was safer to
00:36:01
Speaker
shut down. And again, that flight freeze, when you go into that process, your brain's ability to work the way it's supposed to, when I say that, but to lay down memories, there's a certain process it has to go through. And if your body is in survival mode, it's going to the most basic primitive, get you out of a situation and get you to stay alive. It is not worried about, oh,
00:36:25
Speaker
This thing is just after happened. How do I feel about that? How do I want to remember this? Is there something I should do here that like, should I speak up for myself? Blah, blah, blah. All of that is gone out the window. What it does is something bad is happening. Get out. Get to safety. Or if you can't get to safety, right. I'm shutting you down so this doesn't overwhelm you. So your brain is not laying down those memories.
00:36:49
Speaker
Now, the body is remembering it because the cortisol, the adrenaline, all of those hormones that get you to fight or run or whatever it is you need to do are still very much in the body. So if you have enough situations going on repeatedly,
00:37:06
Speaker
your body never gets in back into a place where it's calm, where it's okay, where it's safe again and your brain can go, oh okay, we're back to normal services. I can start doing what the normal things are and remembering stuff as in laying down those memories into the filing cabinets so they're easily accessible.
00:37:24
Speaker
So a lot of people come in going, I don't remember things, I don't know what's there, but yet they have all these symptoms. It's not that you have to go back and tell the story, it's not that you have to go back and remember everything, but trust that there's something going on and meet that. Trust the symptoms of your body and just go with that. And with, of course, care, kindness, with a trained therapist if you need it.
00:37:50
Speaker
I think what is something you're speaking to there is, and I suppose it just goes to show the power of therapy. There's so many different directions or so many different kind of ways that therapy can help. You can go back and do that kind of inner child work, or you can deal with anxiety in the here and now or depression through CBT, or there's so many different ways you can utilize therapy. And there's so many different modalities that you can kind of
00:38:20
Speaker
And I suppose you find what suits you or what kind of less is your distress in the moment. Because I suppose going back and doing inner child work, it's amazing. It's great. It'll get you one step closer to that individuation and becoming the person that your true self. But it's difficult. It's deep psychodynamic work. It's very hard. It's deep. And some people, I suppose, even for myself, there'd be a fear
00:38:50
Speaker
of going too deep because you'll drown. Like the vastness of what is in the past or how
Meditation, Self-Kindness, and Mental Health
00:39:00
Speaker
it affects it. And even as I'm looking myself, I'm looking at myself at the moment on the screen and I'm like, my head is so small, but the sum of my experiences is so vast and I have severe and the inner world is just, it's basically like this universe in this head.
00:39:21
Speaker
Your whole life experience. No you don't. He doesn't people. He doesn't. We will do the video someday and he will be able to see his head. I think you've touched on something really important there and that is you have to honor your experience. You have to honor where you're at at the moment. So like when I said to you about the inner child, you obviously have a sense of that's not right for me right now.
00:39:46
Speaker
And that is absolutely fine. You have to go with that. Forcing yourself into something is just being cruel again. It's like that authoritative parent going, no, I don't care what you want. You have to do it. And it's like, no, that's not what it's about. That's not self-care. That's not minding yourself. This is us as adults now that are in control.
00:40:06
Speaker
And I remember when I started doing it, I remember this is, Jesus, this is going back a well number of years and hence why I needed a lot of therapy. But somebody asked, if you could imagine your younger self here now, what, how would you feel? And I said, I fucking hate them. And they were like.
00:40:23
Speaker
Oh, okay. Right. Wow. Okay. I, at that time, that's what I, that's what I kind of felt. I did not like myself. I didn't like anything got to do with me. And it was only when I started having that dialogue and very simple stuff. I had to externalize. If you had, when you get triggered and it's the younger self coming through, what age is it? Name and age. And it might be, I don't know, about seven. I'm like, okay, if you, to a seven year old and you're like,
00:40:52
Speaker
Well, yeah, I do. And you go, OK, speak to that seven-year-old like you would speak to yourself right now. And I'm like, I wouldn't dare. OK, well, why are you doing it to yourself? And that started to break it down. And again, I'm not making it out to be simple. It wasn't simple. It was really hard and was really chipped away bit by bit of this piece. So eventually I did. I then started doing the meditation by
00:41:19
Speaker
Nicole Leper, she's the holistic psychologist on Instagram and some people might know her but she does an inner child's meditation where you meet the inner child and it's back in maybe your home, your old childhood home and you just, you mind them, you let them know that the adult is here now. You're okay, you're safe and you hug them or do whatever, if that feels comfortable.
00:41:42
Speaker
And it was through that then that that started to break down for me. That self-care was so much easier. That kindness to myself was so much easier. So in a roundabout way, getting back to how I talk to myself now, that was part of my process to be able to do that. If I'm struggling or if I'm triggered or that child part of me is coming through, I do not, I'm not cruel to it anymore. It's just like mental health.
00:42:12
Speaker
It's basically mind-blowing. There's so many different things going on at any one time. And I suppose when you don't have... I know I mentioned the word distractions earlier. I think sometimes if you have a lot going on in life, if you have a lot of responsibility, if you go through the motions, it's very easy for these things to build and build and build and just
00:42:42
Speaker
to ignore them or just kind of put them to the back of your mind. And then it's easy to just let stuff be. And I think it's very brave to just stop and actually do the inner child work, take a look back, see why I am, how I am today.
00:43:07
Speaker
I know. Awareness is a double-edged sword. I mean, you get all this great awareness, but then it's like, what do you do with this? It hurts. Yeah. What do I do now? I know that's why I am the way I am. A lot of reconciliation. Is that the word? No. That is the word. Reconciding. Reconciding yourself. Yeah. I'm just joking with my words now.
00:43:35
Speaker
It's late in the evening, and you're drunk, so... Oh, no! I'm not drunk! God, he's not! This is just who I am. All the time. This is how I talk. This is why I'm the babbly one, and you're the professional, like,
Cycle of Oppression and Minority Stress
00:43:54
Speaker
you know... You're authentically you, and that's why I love you.
00:43:58
Speaker
And you come in with your words of wisdom and like you're like an oracle. You're like an oracle. Oh gosh, yeah. I didn't even get to read my like cycle of oppression. I'll go first. Cycle of oppression. You did tell me about this. Yeah, go for it. Tell me. I thought this was really interesting. And I think this kind of, you know, you kind of say things are changing, things are getting better. It's going to be very lala. It isn't, it isn't. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:25
Speaker
And then I come in with my, well, things are never going to change. Actually the world is shit. It's called balance folks. I was on the, I was on the Lewis, the tram yesterday with my niece and she's amazing and she's 11. But there was these kind of years that got on and they were quite loud and quite aggressive and quite, they were actually quite dumb.
00:44:53
Speaker
they were just kind of like really barbaric kind of behavior and just making everyone uncomfortable and just being loud and idiotic. And I was just, my niece was just looking at me going like, oh, I'm looking for reassurance. Yeah, she's scared. And then they got off a couple of stops later. And I was just turned to her and I was like,
00:45:18
Speaker
They are everything that's wrong with the world and probably why we won't get very far as a civilization. And then- You're a 11-year-old. I know. I told you earlier, I have to stop thinking that they're adults. Like, I'll talk to them like they're adults. I think she- The world is doomed. You're 11. The world is doomed. Take it. Run with it. She appreciates it. But where I'm taking this from is a really good book. So anyone can get this. It's the Queer Mental Health Workbook.
00:45:48
Speaker
And it's by a Dr. Brendan J. Dunlop. And it has very good practical things for... I'll put a link to it in the notes as well, yeah. I do. And now I have to find the page, so I need filler. Do you have anything that's in your head? You could be filler at the moment. Yeah, you could play one of your sound bites or something. Oh yeah, I found out we had... Hold on. Dramatic piano as you're doing this. Oh no. Can you hear that? No, this is like... That's not like... No. No, I'm not open to that.
00:46:17
Speaker
I do not approve of that. So we talk about minority stress, okay? So that's kind of the theory that being a sexual minority individual was inherently stressful due to stigma and discrimination resulting from interpersonal relationships and wider systems of influence. So that would be family, that would be school, college, work, all those systems of influence. Society, government, yeah. Society got the pillars of society.
00:46:45
Speaker
Which is law, religion, health, and politics. Is it? I think there's four of them, yeah. Four pillars of society. Law, religion, health, and politics. And they say it's like one or two of those crumbles away, then we all were doomed. There's probably a more specific theory about that, but that's in my head.
00:47:10
Speaker
I'm actually quite an optimist. I'm not usually this much of an optimist. I'm particularly positive in life, but I'm just maybe a realist is what I am more. So basically, mental health difficulties, queer people, obviously minority stress can affect us in different ways, but there's this kind of cycle of oppression where it's hard for us to get out of. Now, I want to frame this as well, okay?
00:47:39
Speaker
because I don't want to be heterobashing either, and just kind of alienate the majority of the population. We talk about... You hate them all, don't you? No, this is plainly queer, and we're talking about queer mental health, but this is rather... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is important. Everyone and anyone going through life at the moment, it's hard. It's fucking hard. And we all are faced with stresses in life, and we can all be affected by mental health, whether it be depression, anxiety,
00:48:08
Speaker
So I would say, hopefully this resonates with people that kind of may be heterosexual, but may think, oh, I've been given this blueprint and it doesn't really fit my personality, who I am or who I want to be in the world. And that's totally fine. There's two boxes. Exactly. And that's the great thing about queer. It speaks to all that. Anything outside of the norm or that wants to go against the norm.
00:48:31
Speaker
So just not to kind of, I just wanted to put that in there. Like mental health is not just specific to one group. Paul doesn't hate the straights. That's what he's saying. No, I'm all about it. I'm all about it. I'm all about it. I'm all about it. I'm just talking ridiculousness now. Okay, so let's go through the cycle of oppression because I think this is really interesting. So we start off living in a heteronormative and cisgendered world.
00:48:58
Speaker
So that's the assumption of heterosexuality, being cisgender, growing up believing that queer is wrong. So that's where we start. And then it goes on to the experience of minority stress as a queer individual. So you get the awareness of being different. Then you start to experience shame, marginalization and oppression. Then there is the development of mental health difficulties, low mood, feeling anxious, depression.
00:49:28
Speaker
Then we go on to a potential withdrawal from society, relationship, anger at others, the world that directed towards the self, internalized homophobia. Then you come around to exhaustion and no energy to fight or dismantle the oppressive systems, the heteronormative narrative, mental health difficulties seen as evidence that queer people are different. So there's that circle that because we are who we are in the world that we live in,
00:49:58
Speaker
you're going to develop mental health difficulties, but because you develop mental health difficulties as a result of all this, then you're still seeing a difference. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, and this cycle that it all just repeats itself again. Again, it goes to the importance of what you just say, naming all of this, making people aware of it. There is a cycle of oppression.
00:50:18
Speaker
This is not something that is how many times I don't know why I'm feeling the way I'm feeling. And it's not unique to queer people. This can like, it's like any other marginalized or minority groups and or whatever your personal circumstances, you can be stuck in a cycle that perpetuates kind of negative effects of mental health. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to get an academic bit in there. So I look kind of intelligent and smart and I do my research.
00:50:48
Speaker
You do look intelligent and smart.
Access and Advocacy in Queer Spaces
00:50:53
Speaker
I just like to kind of say you are intelligent and smart. Street smart, yo. Yeah. No, that is no well done because you did say that to me and I did have a look at it and it's spot on because again, it's hard.
00:51:12
Speaker
And as you say, for everybody, but being queer, not having that, if you live in Dublin, it's great, you have a lot of access to different things. But if you don't, if you live in Ballybacca Beyond, you're isolated even more from this. And you don't know why it feels so bad. And there's a lot around you in terms of circumstances, in terms of what may have been said to you.
00:51:36
Speaker
what society is saying to you in your little corner of the world and the culture there. And there's so much, that oppression is pushing you down and you may not know what's pushing you down. So being able to name it here, I think is important for anybody listening that goes, oh, actually, I, as you're talking about that, there's four things on that list I actually now realize is very much in my world. So, yeah. And I suppose that because of the cycle, it just keeps
00:52:05
Speaker
just repeating itself, repeating itself, repeating itself. And I suppose it's how to break that cycle, because I thought the last kind of phase of the cycle was just being so fatigued and so exhausted that you can't even fight to dismantle
00:52:22
Speaker
what it is that's oppressing you, you know? You're like, even if you wanted, I'm punching the air now, people can't see, but like, that's what it is. You're punching the air, you don't know what it is, you're punching, you don't know where it is you're trying to fight back against. If you don't know it's there, all you know is you have to fight for something as in fight for you. But I remember speaking up once about something that affected me or triggered me within a group setting, and it was a majority heterosexual group.
00:52:50
Speaker
And I would have been the minority. And I spoke up about something that kind of didn't sit right with me. And I wanted to educate and just say, listen, this isn't right. This is, this is very kind of whatever it was at the time. And I was told, get off your soapbox and all this sort of stuff. And you're kind of like, well, what's the point? What's the point in trying to educate or expand understanding or maybe meet at a mutual place of understanding?
00:53:16
Speaker
when you're just going to meet with, don't be argumentative. It's hard. And I actually think the, one of the next podcasts we're actually looking to record is talk therapies and the benefits of talk therapies and especially queer affirming. So because of one of the questions I was about to ask you there was how do you get out of that cycle of depression? How do you start to step out of it? Well, for me, of course, personal therapy is always a go-to for me.
00:53:45
Speaker
I love to babble and talk. My therapist loves me because I just sit there and it all comes out. It's a great space to just empty it out. I mentioned journaling. I am like you. I love walking. I love getting out there. I love hiking especially. I love to get out into nature, into the mountains. Love the beach. I love walking on the sand. I adore just grounding myself. Sometimes I went to the Phoenix Park once. It was a really bad time.
00:54:14
Speaker
And I was like, no, I just need to get out of, I was working from home at the time and it just doesn't suit me. It was like this temp job. And I was like, this isn't for me. So I had to get out in my lunch break. And I went across to the Phoenix Park and I went for a walk and I was like, this isn't doing it. And I seen this big tree. It was gorgeous. And it was just there. I literally took off my shoes, took off my socks.
00:54:39
Speaker
I just put my hands on the bark and stood there. Literally, I was a tree hugger, but I just needed a grounding to myself. Do you know that the earth has a vibration frequency? I don't know what the, you look this up, don't take my word for it because you know, I know there's going to be a lot of people rolling their eyes at me right now.
00:55:00
Speaker
So the world has a frequency, it has a vibration frequency or whatever, and our bodies have a frequency and a vibration and it is the same as the earth. So if we get dysregulated, if we go off vibe, off frequency or whatever, and just don't feel good.
00:55:18
Speaker
Earth thing is what they call it. And it is that piece of even if you just go out and stand in nature with your shoes off and your socks off and you touch the earth, it's rebalancing our frequency. So there is science behind it. And so I highly recommend that. So true. Because if you think about it, like early people didn't have socks
Balancing Self-Care Practices
00:55:40
Speaker
or shoes. Like you were always connected to the earth. And now
00:55:44
Speaker
I'd say the vast majority of the time, we've got socks on, we've got shoes on, we've got slippers on if you're in the hay. We don't connect to the earth at all. So yeah, growing on a totally different place now. I can't keep plants. Yeah, I know. But it's true. I mean, that's a great way to... With all of these things, they don't have to be, okay, I've to set aside five hours in a day to do all of these things, but it can be like, okay,
00:56:07
Speaker
If I'm working in an office, can I bring plants into my office? If I'm in the morning before I go to work, can I do, can I go outside and just put my feet in the grass or something like that? It doesn't have to be 10 things and get up at 5.30 and talk to the Buddha. I know him well. He said. He found. Got a bit of a Buddha belly myself at the moment, so I just rubbed that.
00:56:37
Speaker
very good that's good luck yeah hopefully both yeah okay how anything else you wanted to say on this no i think that was a yeah i think that was a nice journey through different things i wonder how it sounded i when we get to the end of these things i'm always like wonder how that sounded what did we talk about what yeah did we just stop you always talk very well and you vocalize expertly
00:57:06
Speaker
what the topic is and then... Well, listening to you again, I said it the last time as well, you're so eloquent and I'm like, Jesus Christ, right? What is it we're talking about today? Do a lot of research, make it sound good. Can I just say this is probably exactly what we're talking about today, that dialogue that we should just stop guessing ourselves. We have imposter syndrome and we are... Well, this is new. Questioning ourselves, going like, oh, that was awful.
00:57:36
Speaker
Yeah, this is brand new, especially, okay, I released one other podcast that I've just started. It was amazing, everyone's listening to us. Trauma and healing podcast, you can find it on your podcast providers. Anyway, but this is brand new. You don't know how it's going to be heard. You don't know, and especially, you know, we
00:57:57
Speaker
just literally like minorly touched on this because we're talking about queer plainly queer it's a different world even say five years ago ten years ago and it would have been probably a little bit safer to talk about these things on a podcast because now with social media now with the rise of hate happening we are opening ourselves up for these things and
00:58:20
Speaker
Yeah, I do worry about how I'm coming across. I do worry about what I say. I do worry about... Bring it on! Haters go to hate. It's not because of that. I just want to do it well, you know? If they can hate me, absolutely.
00:58:32
Speaker
But Jesus, I don't want to say something that's going to hurt somebody or be insensitive. And that's what I get to the end of a podcast and I go, right, I don't think I'm not an insensitive person, but Jesus, I'm human. I can say something off the cuff out of a joke and it can come across inappropriate or something. We're probably going to offend people more because we're saying God a loss and Jesus a loss.
00:58:56
Speaker
I say God a lot. It's also something I'm fine with. Jesus twice in the last 60 seconds. Okay. So if the Jesus people want to hate me, I'm fine with that. If the homophobes want to hate me, I'm fine with that. So actually, do you know what? We're winning. We're going to love ourselves. We're going to love ourselves. We're going to attend to it. Okay.
00:59:18
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Let's leave it at that. And thank you. If anybody's gotten this far, thank you so much for listening. And we'll be back. We're going to, the next one we're going to record is therapy, types of therapy, and queer affirming therapy and why you might think about it.
00:59:37
Speaker
I'm going to bring my journal the next time and I'm going to a few journal quotes, the epitaph and a couple of things. So now you have to tune in to the next one because you're going out on the journal. Yeah, we want to see what his epitaph is going to be before he keeps the booklet. And you better make sure they write it on my gravestone.
00:59:57
Speaker
Okay. I'll put it in the show notes folks. Okay. Thank you. And we'll see you at the next episode. Thanks everyone. Bye. Bye.