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Queer History Part 1: The Hidden Figures of Ireland.
85 Plays2 years ago
Did you know that Ireland was the first country in the world to legalise same-sex marriage by popular vote? How did that happen? In this episode, we talk about Queer Irish history and the hidden figures who made it possible.
In this episode, we will:
- Pay homage to some of the inspirational figures who fought for the rights and dignity of the Queer community, such as David Norris and the Sexual Liberation Movement.
- Discuss one of the key moments that led to the marriage referendum act in Ireland: the Noble Call speech by Rory O’Neill, also known as Panti Bliss, a drag queen and activist who spoke out against homophobia and discrimination.
- Explore what challenges and opportunities lie ahead for the Queer community in their quest for equality and justice.
- Look back at two Irish icons who lived authentically and courageously as themselves, known as the Ladies of Llangollen.
We hope you enjoy this episode, and we would love to hear your feedback and thoughts. Don’t forget to leave us a review and share this podcast with your friends. Thanks for listening!
If you found anything distressing in today's episode, please do reach out to supports. Below is a list of resources that may be of help to anyone listening:
Queer affirming counselling and psychotherapy services: https://www.insightmatters.ie/
LGBTQ+ community support in Ireland: https://lgbt.ie/
LGBTQ+ Youth Support in Ireland: https://www.belongto.org/
Transgender Equality Network Ireland: https://teni.ie/
The Samaritans: https://www.samaritans.org/ireland/samaritans-ireland/
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Transcript
Introduction to Queer Irish History
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, everyone. Once again, you are very welcome to another episode of the Plainly Queer podcast. In this episode, we are going to discuss queer Irish history. So this is going to be a kind of part one of a two parter. So we're going to focus initially here on queer Irish history. And then our second episode is going to go beyond the shores of Ireland and explore queer
00:00:27
Speaker
history from a worldwide lens.
Personal Stories and Humor
00:00:30
Speaker
How do you feel about that, Clodagh? I'm excited about it. I'm really looking forward to it. You've given me a specific task of after 2,000 queer history in Ireland after 3,000. I was like, oh my God, everybody knows about that.
00:00:45
Speaker
Social media has been here, so everything is talked about to death. However, I think I did find something that, again, me being plainly queer, I didn't realize the bigger significance of it. And I'm going to go down, we're going to go on a bit of a journey from 2014, specifically January 11th, 2014.
00:01:10
Speaker
trying to remember where I was. But before we journey to the past, before we go back there, how are you? I am good, Paul. Yes, I am good. I hate when you ask me this because then I'm like, people know I'm no life. It's okay. They don't know any difference. Just like make it up. Yeah. Around the world trip. I went up failing in Peru. Yes.
00:01:38
Speaker
Very good. What have I been doing? I have been doing my usual working away. I am getting ready for a trip to Spain in two weeks for a month, which I cannot wait, especially with Tawshay Flock here in Ireland. If anybody is wondering what I've just said, I didn't curse. I said it was wet in Irish. Yeah, Tawshay Flock. Tawshay Flock, not arm flock. You're so bilingual. I know.
00:02:07
Speaker
Sorry, continue, but remind me to tell you something in a couple of moments. Go on. That's basically it. That's basically my life. Reading, writing, client work, recording podcasts and hoping I don't forget things. That sounds like, yeah. Yeah. Don't. I don't know. I was kind of like, does that sound appealing? No, not at all. I don't have a life. No, you're still accomplished.
00:02:37
Speaker
Oh yeah. Tell me about your life. My life, my life is good. Pretty much the same though. Life is busy at the moment. Yeah. It's like, it's kind of client work. It's kind of day job work. It's college. Like you're doing all this kind of stuff. And then you're trying to balance it as well with a sense of like your own fulfillment in relation to social needs. Like a friend messaged me today and was like, let's do lunch this week. And I was like,
00:03:05
Speaker
maybe let's do lunch in four weeks. There's a little bit of space in my calendar and so you really are trying to cram everything in and a bit of time for yourself. So yeah there's that adjustment I think at the moment. Yeah I also have an inkling for dogs. I would love to get a dog. I don't
00:03:27
Speaker
have the time for myself right now, but I feel like a dog would change. You want an emotional support animal while you're busy. Totally. I was, I was on a flight recently and someone brought on an emotional support dog. It was a rock filer. No, no way.
Queer Culture Reflections
00:03:47
Speaker
It was a rock filer. I was terrified because I have really had. I do tonight's rock filer. Rock filer? Rock filer?
00:03:56
Speaker
I don't think I'm saying a property. I've never pronounced like that. Rockweiler. Rockweiler. Rockweiler, yeah. Don't make fun of me. I'm not, I think it's friggin'... I don't even know if I'm saying it correctly, Bob. Rockweiler. But yeah, this was like a certified psychiatric dog. I was like, that dog would put me on edge, never mind, put me at ease.
00:04:24
Speaker
That'll tell you not to judge a book by its cover. That's true. And you know what? She was lovely. She was the most classic dog I've ever come across. Where was I going with that? You wanted me to remind you of something as well. The way there's gaydar, as in gaydar, to sense the gays around you. The new thing that has got... Oh, why? What's your apprehension here?
00:04:55
Speaker
I'm like, I'm so uncool, I know none of the lingo. What's the new thing that I don't know of it? Bifi. Bifi. If you could see my face, I just, when my mouth dropped open, two catch flies going, what in God's name is bifi? I think I'd know what bifi is, but like, OK, somebody is bifi. Yes, there's wifi. And then bifi is when you pick up other buys close by.
00:05:24
Speaker
You're going to pick up on the BiFi network. Right. Where did you hear it? I heard it from a younger, hipper person. No, I knew that was going to happen. Those little beggars showing us up. We gave them all the words they have so far. What do you think about it? BiFi is the same concept as gay dark. I do like it. I don't hate it. I think it's a really good counter to the biphobic rhetoric out there. BiFi. Yeah.
00:05:53
Speaker
All you buys, get on, get on Bifi. My problem is being gay. I'm like, it's not Bifi. I'm just like, I just assume you're gay. I just assume everybody is gay. Do you assume everyone is gay?
00:06:07
Speaker
Yeah, I'd look at somebody and I'd go, eh, maybe. Do you know that phrase, when you assume you make an ass out of you and me? That's literally... I don't say it out loud and I'd never say it to a person. So like, it's not like I'm going, are you gay? I think you are. No. Oh, everyone's gay. It's awesome. I know. We should all be a little bit more gay. I think that could be like, I don't know.
00:06:35
Speaker
a little bit gay, like a song or something, we could all be a little bit gay. Yeah. We are looking for a catchy intro. Okay. Let's all be a little bit gay. Let's all be a little bit gay. Sounds like it's something you hear on South Park. It probably is, yeah. I saw that concert recently, I went to the Dixie Chicks in the Point. Yes!
00:07:00
Speaker
And it was so good. Oh my God, the concert was so good. The crowd were amazing. But because it was the cause of the month that was in it, it was in July. No, it was in June. The Dixies were like, we're going to do a song that Dolly Parton wrote. And it was for all the queer people in the world. And you shouldn't have to be fighting for your rights and all this. It's probably true.
00:07:23
Speaker
And I don't know what it was called, but apparently Dolly did write a song for the queer community. I was like, this is going to be epic. This is going to be amazing. It was the most campus crap. A three-year-old would have done that. I was like, Dolly, come on. I expect a lot more from you.
00:07:42
Speaker
It wasn't two doors down, was it? No, I love two doors down. I love two doors down. They're having a party. Yeah, I love that. Anyway, look at them. Dolly Parton wrote a song for the queer community, basically Howard Grate and everybody should leave us alone. And then the Dixie Chicks played it at their concerts. The concert was so good. I was like, this is going to be epic. And I was like, seriously?
00:08:10
Speaker
Dolly wrote this. We deserve better from Dolly. She wrote, I will always love you. She wrote, Jolene, come on. No. I think your expectations for Dolly are quite high. Maybe project some of those expectations back on yourself there, Clodagh.
00:08:26
Speaker
Oh, introspection. Yeah. No, I'm sorry. Dolly, Dolly holds a mantle and a high, high mantle in the queer community. And she let us stay. I'm seeing it. And the, I know the gays are going to come after me for that, but like, we did our better. She'll never come on the show. How did we get on to that? Who knows? Do you remember that film? I'm sorry.
Homosexual Law Reform in Ireland
00:08:55
Speaker
ADHD branch off here.
00:08:57
Speaker
Did you ever see Transamerica? No. Oh, amazing movie. If you ever see it, it's really good. But Dolly, the song that I mentioned earlier, Travelling Through, is on the soundtrack. And that's, yeah, I don't know why that came into my head. But anyway, it's a really good movie, Transamerica. And well, thinking about it now, it was like a cisgender female playing a transgendered female character.
00:09:24
Speaker
That is not the best thing. They could have got better representation. Was it of its time? Is it one of those things that of the time? Kind of was, kind of. We know better. One of the desperate housewives was in us, Felicity Hoffman. I like her. I think she went to jail. Didn't she try to, like, buy- She'd go to jail. I remember, yeah. Her daughter got into college because of money that exchanged hands from Felicity to the college.
00:09:49
Speaker
And I love William H. Macy, who is an opera. I think there are really some couples in Hollywood. You're like, you're cool. And Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins are another kind of couple in Hollywood. They're not together anymore, are they not? No. I think they've got a really kind of kind of fluid dynamic going on. They consciously are couples? Yes. You can make a boy as well, wouldn't you? Did she? OK. Yeah. There's the boy fight.
00:10:17
Speaker
Yeah, she logged on to her albify there now on her phone. So you're going to go pre 2000 and I'm going to go after 2000. You haven't told me what you're talking about. I haven't told you what I'm talking about. That's right, Clodagh. Thanks for that. Yes, I will be taking queer ownership.
00:10:39
Speaker
I don't know. I just felt like doing it. I just felt like you're like a newscaster. And I was kind of like, I'm not taking the time for not bullying in real time. It's not this is how friendship works. This is how it's developing. It's it's nurturing. But yes, we're going to cover Irish history, queer Irish history. And I'm said I would take
00:11:06
Speaker
before the year 2000, because not much happened. Oh, and then everything then happened after 2000 you're going to cover, which I'm very much looking forward to hearing. That's kind of stuff I remember. I don't remember much of before 2000. So, but it was interesting to look it up. You have kind of given me a hint of something. You're going to be like, Oh, you kind of gave me a glint in your eye going, I know what I'm going to talk about. And it's going to be like the controversies or something, or what did you say? What word did you use?
00:11:36
Speaker
I do remember saying that, but then I got distracted by things and that didn't happen. So because you put the wind of me, I was like, Oh my God, this is going to be amazing. Mine's going to be terrible. Yeah. I'm sorry for putting that expectation out there, but then life did get in the way and listen, I have what I have. If that's not good enough, then cut it. So what I'm going to touch on is the campaign for homosexual law reform.
00:12:05
Speaker
Okay, so when did this happen? So the Campaign for Homosexual Law Reform, I even just love saying it, it was an organisation set up to campaign for the decriminalisation of homosexuality in the Republic of Ireland, and actually Northern Ireland as well. And it started in the 1970s, so in the 1970s in Ireland, so it'd be quite kind of
00:12:29
Speaker
Conservative Ireland, the Catholic Church had a lot of kind of influence and say they had their fingers in not only kind of church stuff, but also politics, schools. They had basically control over every aspect of our society. The leader, the prominent leader of the campaign for homosexual law reform was David Norris. So yeah, he was an English Studies Lecturer in Trinity College in Dublin.
00:12:54
Speaker
and yeah he was a Joycean scholar as well and from the 1980s then after this to the present he's been very much involved in Irish politics and he's a senator isn't he? Yeah in Shanadairn which is the Irish Senate so he's been very much kind of a member of that now for many many years so I suppose
00:13:15
Speaker
Starting off from the conception of this campaign for homosexual law reform, it started in Trinity College and Norris was a lecturer there. So himself and a group of other students, they informally established the sexual liberation movement in 1974. I love us. Yeah, the sexual liberation movement. It's like the summer of love, but like sexual liberation. Yeah, I love us. Yeah. So now the sexual liberation movement was short-lived.
00:13:45
Speaker
but two splinter organizations formed on the Trinity College campus as a result of that. So you had the Dublin University Gay Society, which is the first long-term LGBT rights organization in Ireland, and then you had a group of law students from Trinity known as the Campaign for Homosexual Law Reform. Very interestingly, and what I love and I didn't realize at all, its first legal advisor
00:14:13
Speaker
Can you guess who the first legal advisor was to this group, Trinity? I haven't a clue. It was Mary McElise. Mary, how are you? That does not surprise me. Former President of Ireland. So the Campaign for Homosexual Law Reform, like that, a group of law students in Trinity College and nurses involved as well. Its first legal advisor was Mary McElise. She's been an ally from day one, Rick.
00:14:42
Speaker
Oh yeah, of course. She served as legal advisor from 1975 to 1979. That's when she left her professional position to join Irish Broadcasting, RTE. She was succeeded in her role as legal advisor to this homosexual law reform campaign in the 1980s by, guess who?
00:15:08
Speaker
you see this is here this is why we call it plainly queer i have no idea come on tell me mary robinson oh my god i freaking love this i thought you would have gone
00:15:22
Speaker
Yeah, I actually was like, that's very obvious. And I was like, it was too obvious that they would have done that. But like, I love it. And what Mary Mary Mac Mary Mac Elise, she has done a lot of reform in the Irish Catholic penal not penal law, but their law, and went back and studied after she finished up being president. So I have so much respect for her.
00:15:46
Speaker
Amazing. Brilliant. I had no idea that the part they played in the campaign for homosexual law reform in Ireland. Much appreciated to both of them. Thank you very much. Yes. Why not come on and discuss it with us at some stage? Imagine if we would have the two of them on at the same time. Wouldn't that be amazing? And could you imagine they hated each other? That's it. They're not coming on now.
00:16:14
Speaker
The Desperate Housewives is Orson Ooktoron. Can we be cancelled? Is that a thing? Can Gasp be cancelled? Shut that, we need to shut this down. What they did was amazing. So yes, they both worked as legal advisors. And so yes, I think it's really nice that
00:16:37
Speaker
two former presidents of Ireland were involved in that kind of campaign for homosexual law reform. Gosh, can you imagine the two of them having the chats about this? Maybe season two. Yeah, let's put it in the diary. Yeah, I think this is a good foundation though. So back to this story.
00:16:59
Speaker
David Naras, stemming from this, stemming from all this kind of work that they did on campus and this kind of campaign for homosexual law reform and they had really good legal brains and they were kind of trying to shake up the systems, dismantle those oppressive systems and especially like Irish politics at the time.
00:17:17
Speaker
David Norris took a case to the Irish High Court in 1980, seeking a declaration that the laws of 1861 and 1885, which criminalised homosexual conduct, were not enforced since the enactment of the Constitution of Ireland. So I will probably cut that out. But anyway, he took it to the Irish High Court to try and get homosexuality in Ireland, decriminalised basically.
00:17:47
Speaker
So that was thrown out of court. Did you have to do that on the back of a case already been taken? So somebody was arrested for this crime and then they were able to challenge the law. Is that how that works? Am I thinking of that? There's probably precedent I think you're talking about. Precedent, yeah. How did they challenge that if there was no challenge to the law? I wonder if that was a case. Yeah, I'd appreciate no questions that I don't know the answers to.
00:18:16
Speaker
But I think it could just show the bravery. It takes a lot to be able to stand up to your country, to the legal system. Now, absolutely he was 100% right on fair play to him, but it's quite an undertaking and at the time and even more when you consider how far we've come in terms of beliefs and understanding. Of course. And like that case, which was David Norris versus the Attorney General,
00:18:45
Speaker
That was lost on legal grounds and the decision was upheld on the appeal to the Supreme Court of Ireland. The High Court of Ireland dismissed the case and then the Supreme Court of Ireland subsequently enforced that dismissal and it was kind of the Supreme Court referred in its judgement to Christian moral teaching and the needs of society.
00:19:14
Speaker
they upheld the criminalization of homosexuality based on Christian moral teaching and needs of society. And that was actually mentioned in the court documents. We'll go then to, I suppose, David Norris kept fighting, kept kind of going for the next step, of course, after the Supreme Court of Ireland would be to take it to the European Court of Human Rights. So David Norris took a case in 1983
00:19:42
Speaker
to the European Court of Human Rights, claiming that the Irish laws breached the state's obligations under Article 8 of the Convention of the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms regarding respect for private life. So the case is actually called Norris versus Ireland. I think that's brilliant. No way. What an undertaking. I know, Norris versus Ireland. So that was in 1988.
00:20:11
Speaker
In a 1988 ruling following that, the court found that the Irish laws were in breach of the Convention and directed the state to pay costs to North. So, I suppose stemming from that,
00:20:27
Speaker
No reform action was taken by the then government and the Taoiseach then was Charles Haughey. So in 1988, Taoiseach was Charles Haughey and the government that was in power then took no reform action in relation to the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights. The following Taoiseach was Albert Reynolds. So he succeeded Charles Haughey in 1992. And when he took office, he declared that the reform
00:20:55
Speaker
was very low on his list of priorities. So it wasn't going to get a look in. But however, in 1993, there was a coalition government between Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party. And it was the Labour Party and that coalition who pushed the then Minister for Justice that they wanted these kind of laws abolished.
Pantygate and Marriage Equality
00:21:17
Speaker
Marie Gauguin Quinn was the Minister for Justice at that time. She was noted as insisting
00:21:23
Speaker
that there was an equal age of consent for homosexual and heterosexuals alike. Yeah, so I thought that was a really rich tapestry and I loved the way it involved two foreign presidents. Yeah, I really like that and especially, I'm just like, yeah, women in history and to have such strong advocates, I just love that. I just love that they're a part of that. It doesn't surprise me, but yeah, fair play to them.
00:21:53
Speaker
I suppose the two likely heroes in this situation, David Norris, of course, he is a force of nature. He's done so much for the queer community, the LGBTQ plus community here in Ireland. We so much to be thankful and grateful to him for, and also I suppose the Labour Party for their part in kind of pushing it through, for kind of having it high on their list of priorities, because it wasn't high on Fina Falls' list of priorities at the time. Yeah.
00:22:23
Speaker
Fingfall and Fingale don't really have a great history. Not in present times, but unless they're pushed to it politically, unless the political will is there, they're not really going to get behind it, are they? No. Well, not in the past, it seems, yeah. And also just on that, one of the things that came up with my research that I think will be God and now have I lost all my notes? Yeah. There was an apology.
00:22:50
Speaker
to the men convicted of homosexual offenses. So that was in, I think it was in 2018. So Ben Taoiseach, in the way Taoiseach now, Leo Varadkar, formally apologized to the men that were convicted of same-sex sexual activity and had been criminalized prior to 1993. So again, a really significant apology about the harm done by
00:23:15
Speaker
governments and by the state and towards homosexuality. It's just, it's, it's, it's mad to think, I dunno, like 2018 feels far too close for something like that to be happening. It feels like it should be happening in the 1950s. But of course we're still repairing so much in our, you, you've touched on this before. There's trauma in queer history and there's a lot of present day carry
00:23:45
Speaker
of that trauma and it's still present because we still have restrictions. We still have the I better watch myself before I reach for my partner's hand. Is it safe for me to be me here in this space? Panties no well call. I need to check myself. It's still very much present and yeah it just it feels like when you talk about the history and the significance of it and how hard fought it is by so many people that we're still here today fighting it.
00:24:15
Speaker
in different ways but yeah. Yeah so that was the campaign for homosexual law reform and yeah it involved David Norris and maybe unawares to some people, Mary McAlison and Mary Robinson were very involved. Mary Robinson was actually senior counsel for David Norris in his trial so I think this is a very interesting story.
00:24:38
Speaker
But also like not that long ago, like 1993 for the decriminalization of homosexuality. That felt like, like I remember 1993. And that was my take on queer Irish history. So. Considering the education. Thank you. And I am now open to receive education from you. Okay. So I hope I do this justice because this is about Rory O'Neill, AKA Panty Bliss.
00:25:09
Speaker
Oh, amazing! So, do you remember The Noble Call? Of course I do. I do remember The Noble Call in the Abbey Theatre. Yeah, so obviously I have the remix of the song. I loved it. I remember listening to it at the time and absolutely being like totally in agreement with what panty aka worry to sing. But I didn't know the full
00:25:34
Speaker
ground and what it actually caused as a catalyst for change within Ireland. So let me take us back in time. So I'm going to take you back to January 11th 2014 to the Saturday Night Show which was hosted by Brendan O'Connor on the RT.
00:25:51
Speaker
TV station, right? So the discussion that on that episode was about homophobia in Ireland and Rory came on and there was obviously a conversation around does is there homophobia in Ireland and Brendan O'Connor asked the direct question was there homophobes in Irish media and Rory kind of went well yeah
00:26:13
Speaker
And Brendan asked, well, who? And he goes, well, now. And Brendan started naming names to which Rory replied, yes, I would say they are homophobes or not paraphrasing. And this kicked off a shitstorm, basically.
00:26:31
Speaker
And during the program, a few people were named. I'm not going to name names because there's a lot of litigious people around here. Anyway, legal proceedings were taken against Ortee and Rory claiming that there was damage to the rep... alleging defamation, damage to the reputations, right?
00:26:49
Speaker
On February 7, 2014, RTE issued an apology to these people by the comments that were made on the show. They edited the show to take out the comments, so they took it out completely, acknowledging the comments were unfair and did not meet RTE standards. RTE on the 21st of February then paid a financial settlement to these people.
00:27:17
Speaker
Now, what caused all of this was what Panty and Brennan were talking about was not untrue. The censoring of that conversation of free speech within Ireland, our national broadcaster capitulated to these people out of pure fear, didn't challenge it, immediately made the apology, took it off air and left Rory out to dry basically.
00:27:47
Speaker
Anyway, that led to that speech, that famous speech. It became known as the Pantygate controversy. So it sparked mad debate on freedom of speech, LGBT rights, the world of media in Ireland, all of that. So the Nobel call speech that happened in the Abbey, I think that was two weeks after this,
00:28:11
Speaker
was Panty Bliss saying, we talked about this before about how she checks herself, or he checks himself at pedestrian crossings, because just in case somebody might see something within them that's kind of queer, kind of and the gay, and that feels oppressive. And it was from that speech, which I, everybody should check. Panty Bliss was the catalyst, this thing was the catalyst to put
00:28:39
Speaker
the marriage referendum, the constitutional change on obviously political radar, it made it more expedient for them to make change. And that's how the Irish government then officially announced on November 4th, 2014, later in that year, that they were going to hold a referendum on the issue of same-sex marriage.
00:29:00
Speaker
There was a direct link back to Panti's, um, appearance on RTE and a direct link because of her Nobel call speech. A direct link or had like legistice of change, like had that not been like in the back? It was actually, let's make the decision, put it to the people because there's obviously, um, uh, change that people want to make. Let's put it out there. I didn't know that.
00:29:29
Speaker
And obviously now Rory campaigned so hard for the marriage referendum and we also owe a debt of gratitude to them for doing that because it took a huge amount of sacrifice from them. Yeah, when you think of these individuals that have given so much of themselves to putting themselves out there in benefit of our community, in benefit of kind of the progression of
00:29:57
Speaker
basic human rights for queer individuals and for equality. They have sacrificed so much of themselves and their own privacy and sense of themselves for the greater good. And think about that as well, being part of the face of that change. Imagine if it didn't go through.
00:30:22
Speaker
Imagine what I would have said to the people of Ireland, to the queer people of Ireland, that Ireland isn't binding. So the marriage equality referendum obviously was in 2015.
00:30:33
Speaker
So that was only five years after the civil partnership act. So this, this kind of snowball effect that was started back really a change of law. I'm sure it was started back before this in, in other ways, other pride and protests of, as you say, when people were being oppressed, there were protests, there were acts of, acts of pride as people stood up for themselves and said, no, we're not going to take this act of defiance. Yeah.
00:31:02
Speaker
the legal roads really started to kick off as I started looking through this. So sorry, the marriage equality referendum in 2015, again a historic moment because the world's first nation to vote on our constitution to include marriage equality.
00:31:22
Speaker
Which I, I just love. I still love that to this day. I remember being there outside Panty Bar and a friend of mine that I went to college with that I trained with, we met and saw each other. I was surrounded by good friends, but they were straight. And when we saw each other, we got so emotional because we knew what that meant. And I, I've said this in previous podcasts of, I felt like my country was behind me that day. So such a momentous occasion. I do remember where you were and, and, and that thought went through.
00:31:52
Speaker
Yes, it was a very interesting day. We went around a lot of places. We tried to get into Dublin Castle, but the queue was too long. So I think we sat at the back of Street 66, formerly the front lounge bar on Parliament Street. We had a few drinks there, just soaking in the atmosphere. And then we went to the George because TV3, which is now
00:32:18
Speaker
Virgin Media. Do they have a TV channel now? Am I getting this wrong? Yeah, they have a news channel anyway. Virgin Media. Yeah, TV3, Vincent Brown. Vincent Brown, he used to have a late night with Vincent Brown. But anyway, he was broadcasting live from the George on that day. And so myself and my friend went into the sidebar of the George, like it's called Jurassic Park.
00:32:49
Speaker
yeah i was only talking about this the other day i didn't know that until like i'd say about five or six years ago yeah it was kind of this thing that like if you were a bit more mature and you didn't want to be like well if you did if you wanted a more relaxed chill out atmosphere and you'd go to the sidebar which just became known as drastic park and i'm kind of like i'm quite happy with that i don't care i loved it i absolutely loved it fell in love with it i didn't know it existed but no
00:33:18
Speaker
I like it. But yeah, the thing was the kind of more mature kind of gaze would go to a Jurassic Park. Anyway, there is a side entrance that connects the nightclub, the George and this bar. So we were able to kind of go into the, you couldn't get into the George, the queue was so long into the nightclub part of it. So we said we go into the sidebar, we had a nice drink there. And then we seen this door and some of the staff were coming in now and we were like, we'll just sneak through the door there into the nightclub.
00:33:48
Speaker
And literally we snuck through the door and the cameras were right there recording Vincent Brown and his show and he had panel members there. And we found ourselves in the audience at that. So we were there for a few hours. They announced us and it's very happy and it's very joyous. So I was in the George is the short answer to
Ongoing Legal Inequalities and Global Comparisons
00:34:04
Speaker
that. I was, yeah, just such an atmosphere, wasn't it? It was such a, such a day. What do you, like, what did you feel on that day? Tipsy?
00:34:17
Speaker
Did you feel like it was momentous? Did you feel like you were accepted, any of those sorts of, or was it just this is great crack, it would be a great night for a piss off? No, I did feel, I don't know, now you say, I didn't feel like, oh, I felt like this was a really, I remember talking to Mary Lou McDonald in the smoking area and I got a selfie with Mary Lou McDonald in the smoking area. I remember seeing Mihal Martin was there as well.
00:34:43
Speaker
and I remember his son was quite attractive and his son was there too with him, through that I think his son was heterosexual but all the allies were there anyway and yeah I just I remember feeling it was a big moment yes um but then I think part of me was kind of like
00:35:01
Speaker
yeah i don't know there was something going on there that i was kind of like well this should be a given anyway why you should have to fight so hard yeah we celebrate this thank you for giving this to us it's like
00:35:16
Speaker
We kind of should have that way, but I hear that. Yeah. Um, it's ridiculous that it has got to like 2015 and we're still talking about this and we're still talking about it in 2023. Well, you are because it's not, because it's, it's not a done deal. We're still, we're still fighting for equality. I think everyone's like now, Jesus, if it wasn't like, if you could get all the benefits of marriage without getting married, like the legal stuff, I'd say half the people wouldn't bother.
00:35:47
Speaker
Is that not like a partnership? Yeah. What is the difference between marriage and a civil partnership? That is a good question and I had that. So civil partnership couples had the rights and responsibilities similar to but not equal to those of a civil marriage. So even in the civil partnership, even though that was good, it wasn't as equal as civil marriage that heterosexuals.
00:36:12
Speaker
talks about, but actually that's another interesting point. I was actually looking at this the other day, Renee Van Meeding, her heading, I think it is, she is on Instagram and we'll link her page into the notes and only just recently. So she is doing IVF with her partner. They have two kids and they had eggs, frozen embryos, and they had to go to Portugal to do them.
00:36:39
Speaker
So since 2020, the use and movement of embryos and the laws within Ireland is quite restrictive. So you have to meet certain circumstances in order for IVF with same-sex couples. So one of the things for a heterosexual couple, if they go abroad and get IVF treatment, so embryo implantation or anything like that, they have full parental rights when they return to Ireland.
00:37:07
Speaker
So no matter where they go, when they come back to Ireland, a heterosexual couple will both have their name on their deaf child's birth certificate once they're born. Now, this woman who's actively going through it as, as we're talking here, like it's present day, it's not the same after the 2020 legislation. If you don't use an Irish clinic, a pregnant person is the only person that's legally registered on that birth certificate.
00:37:35
Speaker
Now, for this couple, the egg that was implanted was the other partner's egg. So it's actually even her egg that was used, and she will not be legally recognized. She'd be, what do they call it, like legal parental alienation because the law refuses to recognize it because they went outside of the country. So even today, homosexual couples don't have the same rights as heterosexual couples.
00:38:02
Speaker
I think that's quite something that that can even exist. Yeah, I suppose legal stuff, I think it's always such a quagmire because it's always like everything has to be broken down, dissected and covered to the infinite degree. Like if you any of these bills or acts or legal kind of things, reforms,
00:38:28
Speaker
they are books, they are novels, they are war and peace-sized things that have to go through. So I'd say, yeah, I'd say people are... They're so differentiated. But I'd say they're afraid to even go near it, like politicians and legal people and the lawmakers of the land. I'd say they're even afraid to even touch it. So, yeah, it's not even good on itself. Yeah, they just don't know where to start with this. And I think it's that kind of fear there, it's that fear of trying to change.
00:38:57
Speaker
Yeah, to try and make it more. Yeah, I just think it's horrific at this day and age that they have to go through that. And when they come back to Ireland, and the child hopefully is eventually born, they have to then go through a legal fight to have the parent recognized. But a hetero sexual couple, it's it's automatic. So laws be jammed, or tiredness of wanting to change us changes. Start that battle, make sure it is changed.
00:39:27
Speaker
Then if you go to, I read an article recently, literally today in Georgia and there was a prize kind of festival in March organized in Georgia and thousands of anti LGBTQI kind of protesters showed up and we're talking violent protesters.
00:39:49
Speaker
tearing everything down. It couldn't happen. And seeing the pictures, I'm kind of like, God, you have the one extreme where they haven't even got to the chance of being able to protest because they've been shut down. And there's the threat of violence and the threat of actually being killed. And then you have the other side of it where you have to buy in to be part of this kind of right to protest. It's that bonkers.
00:40:17
Speaker
Within our own community now, there's such a sense of imbalance. Yeah. I have a question for you. Go first. Where to next? What's next for the queer community in Ireland? What is our next steps? What's the evolution? What's next to come in the evolution of the queer community in Ireland?
00:40:43
Speaker
I think, and I don't want to speak on this because it's not something that directly affects me, but I think two pieces that I see are in need of reform, not the only things, but transgender rights and medical transitioning and how we cope with that. Not how we cope with that, but how the Irish system is set up to do with that. I don't think it's very progressive. I think it goes against what's now known to be best practice.
00:41:13
Speaker
I think there's a reckoning going to come with that. I think the current wait list for the Gender Clinic in Ireland in Lachlanstown is something like eight years, which is just appalling. I think that has to change. The other thing I think as well, as I touched on earlier, is the treatment of same-sex couples in IVF treatment. If you go abroad, why is it that heterosexual couples have the automatic right and that same-sex couples don't?
00:41:43
Speaker
So there's two pieces for me I see as the forefront of change. What about yourself? I would agree. I think it follows the natural flow of queer individuals, their same sex marriage now. So naturally it would follow that family would come next, as in growing that family.
00:42:06
Speaker
and reproductive rights and the rights of children and families and family recognition. And I don't think I'm phrasing it properly, but you know what I mean? The right to nurture and grow a family. Yes, equality. Especially when there's so many children in the world that are in need of a family, like the amount of children that need foster care in Ireland, that need adoption. And it's made so difficult.
00:42:32
Speaker
So yeah, really need, I think that's the new kind of ground. And as you say, health care, queer health care in particular, trans health care is awful. And it just needs to be totally overhauled. And again, I think it's because it's patriarchal. I keep saying that wrong. Thank you. Thank you. Can you say it again? Patriarchal. I think that's what it is. I think there's just, and it is all these HSC doctors, you see them and you're kind of like,
00:43:02
Speaker
You can just get the vibe that they're not even like trans affirming. Yes. There's a very kind of dinosaur-esque back in the cave days. Yes, send them to Jurassic Park. Let's drag them out into the sunlight and actually move with the times, move with what we know to be care, just care on a very basic level. People just want to experience. Can I? Yes, they're gone.
00:43:26
Speaker
Let's say, can I ask you, do you think that the standard two people in a relationship you meet, you get married and you have kids or whatever? Marriage is part of that. Do you think that's going to change? Do you think we're going to evolve out of that? And I'm thinking about one, not getting married, not having a partnership and having legal rights and protections that would go along with that after a certain amount of time.
00:43:52
Speaker
but also more people coming into relationships. So polyamory, anything like that. Do you see us opening up as a frontier that that could be the next step? One thing I know that is true is that life is very hard if you just want to be by yourself. Like, so I know we talk about kind of finding someone else and going through that as much, but just to be a person and live by yourself is made so difficult.
00:44:20
Speaker
You nearly have to kind of start that process of meeting someone and you kind of financially, emotionally, you need someone in life. You need a person to be with you in life now. It's very hard to go through life alone. So yeah, I think the next transition would be, okay, maybe like co-ops, co-ops of individuals coming together and
00:44:45
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I think it'll be like I say, many, many, many, many, many generations before it figures itself out. But yeah, I think, what was the question? Do you think kind of the heteronormative view of two people, that's it, you follow the line, kids' marriage, the house, all of that. Do I think that'll change? The only norm. Yeah. I think
00:45:10
Speaker
That's the only way that society is built to make it easy on us to exist. Like if you go outside. Make it easy on us. Yeah. Yeah. Just I was just going to say those outside of it, it's not easy. Exactly. Because the systems are all set up that you get together, you create a family,
00:45:30
Speaker
You exist. You nurture that family. They'll go on and make other families. You're protected legally. You're protected on a tax. You're protected housing. You're so protected if you follow that bubble. You go outside of it. You're a mouse in a wheel. You're a mouse in a wheel. The wheel is spinning. And yeah, that's it. You're just a mouse in a wheel. And if you stop spinning... So there's equality in terms of relationship status.
00:45:59
Speaker
There's a certain, you're more protected if you're a certain status than that is too.
Future of Queer Relationships
00:46:04
Speaker
Ideally male and female because you'll get most protections there. But if you're a single person or a person that say doesn't have kids or is in relationship with multiple others, you are still not as protected, not as legally or minded or you're even out of the housing system. Medically how that is treated. You're next of kin. What if we don't have an extra kin?
00:46:28
Speaker
I have a question. If there was a referendum on polyamorous marriage, how do you think it would go down? Go first. Oh, how would it go down? Oh, I'm like, yeah, do your thing. I don't care. No, what do you think? How would it go down? Yeah, how would it go down? Like, if it was the popular vote again, how do you think? Today, I don't think it would be as easy a vote.
00:46:52
Speaker
I don't think we have the understanding just yet as a nation. I think that's more and more needs to be talked about. Very interesting, these frontiers, these like brave new worlds and yeah, how the systems will change, how like it is, it's those pillars of society. It's law, politics, religion, and health. They are the pillars that are holding up society. So then you bring in all these kinds of things to challenge that.
00:47:22
Speaker
And you're like, how do all these sectors adapt? Or are they willing to adapt? Say if you brought in a thing of polyamorous marriage, and it would be like, how would the systems react to that? Would those pillars of society be able to withstand something like that?
00:47:45
Speaker
The argument is always at that point at every juncture when you go outside of those steps is that it will weaken society, it will lessen society, it will damage society in every way. Gay marriage will damage society, it will never recover. If gay marriage will damage children or don't say gay, all of these sort of kind of tropes.
00:48:05
Speaker
So I think if we were to learn by history, we could see that anytime we allow people to be themselves, to embrace them and love them and cherish them and mind them within a society, it only strengthens us. There's no, we're not bringing in something that's detrimental to society. All we're asking, say in the polyamory side of things, all you're asking is for more people to be alive, love more people. What's so terrible about that?
00:48:36
Speaker
That's just my, that's just my thinking on it. No, that is valid thinking. What's so terrible about that? But people will always think of things. I've got a cute little story. Come first. Yeah, it's I was doing some kind of when I was kind of researching stuff about kind of queer Irish history. I read about these two women and one of whom was called Lady Eleanor Butler. Have you ever heard of Lady Eleanor Butler?
00:49:03
Speaker
It's familiar, but I have no idea why. Oh, really? Oh, great. So they were known as the Ladies of Van Goghan, OK, which is a town in Wales. So Eleanor Butler and Sarah Ponsambi, they were two upper class Irish women who lived together as a couple. Yeah, in 1749.
00:49:32
Speaker
Yeah, so you're going back like the 1600s. So their relationship scandalized and fascinated their contemporaries. The pair moved to a Gothic house in Wales in 1780 after leaving Ireland to escape the social pressures of conventional marriages. So yeah, over the years, numerous distinguished visitors called upon them Shelly, who was a poet,
00:50:01
Speaker
and Wordsworth as well, who was a poet they all visited in. And actually, Wordsworth wrote a sonnet about the two ladies. Yeah, so Elinor, who like that was born in 1739, was a member of the Butler family, a daughter of Walter Butler, the Earl of Ormond. Her family, whose seat was in Gilkenny Castle, considered her an over-educated bookworm.
00:50:30
Speaker
Yeah, she was educated in a convent in France and so spoke French. Sarah Ponsonby, who was born in 1755, was orphaned as a child and lived with relatives in County Kilkenny. Yeah, so basically they met and their families lived 15 miles from each other. The two women met in 1768 and very quickly became close.
00:50:56
Speaker
Over the years, they formulated a plan for a private rural retreat. It was their dream to live an unconventional life together. So rather than face the possibility of being forced into unwanted marriages in Ireland, they left County Kilkenny together in 1778. Their families found them and forcibly tried to make them give up their plans, but they were in vain.
00:51:22
Speaker
The two women moved to Wales and they sent for their servants to come from Ireland. Her name was Mary Carlyle. She lived and worked with them for the rest of her life and then Mary died and the two ladies died as well. But I love that all three were buried in the same plot.
00:51:42
Speaker
with the same. Oh, that's sweet. I love how you ended that. Oh, they all died. But hold on. Yeah, but they're all buried together in the same grave marker. But I just like that. They lived in a Welsh country town and they had their home together and they just lived there. They did their own thing. They lived their own life. Yeah, no. That's the right point of it. Let them live. Let people live their own lives. Exactly. But I just love that curve ball at the end of like, oh, they're a servant in rabbit ears. Could have been like polyamory thing going on as well.
00:52:10
Speaker
I tell you polyamory is altered at the age of... It's in inverted commas, is it? It's written as that. No, I just put it up. I just actually... I'm just presuming that the three of them were in a very loving and committed relationship to one another and they were all, yeah, it's nice that they were all buried together in the same plot.
00:52:31
Speaker
I love happy stories like that's a living a life happy ever after I hope it was for them but like that is so nice now they were in a lot of deaths and it's pretty kind of like yeah they were bougie like they were yeah they lived the bougie lifestyle that's the way to do us live bougie yeah you're not going to take it with you yeah true you can leave debt behind it's fine
00:52:55
Speaker
I was in Money
Activism and Well-being Balance
00:52:56
Speaker
Dash. Very good. I love that. Thank you for ending that. I just wanted to put that little story I came across. I love those things from like hundreds of years ago. Yeah, it is. I do love stories. I love hearing. I just love that. I know growing up, I would have heard like it's, this is a new thing. It's a fad or somebody just going through, it's the newest trend or something like that. And then you go back through history, like since the dawn of humanity.
00:53:23
Speaker
And there's queer stories everywhere, everywhere. You cannot get away from it. And it's just trying to be a race. So when I hear stories like that, I'm like, yes, go live your best life. Please, of course, I love this. Pride, vote, protest, go for it. What is the end goal? Equality for all. Do you think it's realistic? I'm going to keep fighting until my last breath anyway. Oh, I love that. That was like, that was for Xena, warrior princess.
00:53:53
Speaker
Like we are literally forging our way forward as in we don't know what's to come because we are the first people going there as in relation to equality. Go back to the past and learn from it. That's how they kept fighting. They kept turning up. They kept challenging. They kept disrupting. You love a disruptor. So be a disruptor. Yeah. But then I think society tames you. I think society tames the disruptor.
00:54:23
Speaker
I think that's the purpose of society. The purpose of society is to constrain disruption, is to kind of keep the status quo. We don't have to play along. Yeah, but if you don't play along, you're ostracized. But we have our own community. We do, but that community is embedded in the pillars of society. So you have to... You're very hopeless, Paul. I'm not hopeless, I'm just practical.
00:54:50
Speaker
You do what you have to do to survive. Go on. I agree with you.
00:55:02
Speaker
Again, very easy for me in my high tower to go, yes, we must fight and we must do. There's a lot of people I pass in society that nobody would know I was even gay. So like, it's not something that I've impacted on. And now there are impacts on my life, don't get me wrong. But what I'm saying is the trans person walking down the street is an open target now at the moment it seems.
00:55:26
Speaker
So I must continue fighting. There is so many people who are exhausted. Yeah, from my high terror. There's so many people. But I seriously think for us in our high terror that says, Oh, well, it's fine. It's not a whole lot we can do still show up in whatever way you can, even if it's from the conversation with your mates and they go, Oh my God, that's so gay. So what do you mean by that?
00:55:56
Speaker
Can I ask a question? Do you believe in life after love? No. Do you believe us in creating this podcast is enough for us to fulfill that obligation? No. Do you not have conversations in your day-to-day life that come up every now and then? I do. You don't have conversations every day about this. And very funny enough, I know you touched on this a couple of episodes ago.
00:56:22
Speaker
I find as a result of doing this podcast, I'm more confident talking about those things. I want to talk about those things. I want to communicate my point of view. And I don't want to feel like I'm being a burden or I'm on a soapbox. This is who I am. This is my experience. This is the experience of other people, other people in the world who are queer
00:56:44
Speaker
have awful experiences and they don't get to be themselves i feel privileged for being able to be myself so i'm going to be myself and i'm going to communicate what i want to communicate and i'm going to be who i want to be and not everyone's going to like that not everyone has liked that i've lost a lot of relationships in my life because of who i am but i'm sick of apologizing for that and i just want to be who i want to be and who i am and yeah i just want to be who i am and maybe that's my
00:57:14
Speaker
just being who I am, unapologetically. And I suppose I'm going to link that back into what I was saying about Panties Nobel call. The reason why they were checking themselves is because any gay person at the moment, and even within Ireland, we talked with the marriage referendum, we were done and we had equality and all that sort of stuff.
00:57:34
Speaker
any gay person in Ireland or queer person in Ireland when they reach for their partner's hand. It is not a simple, I just feel like holding their hand, I don't have to think about it that other straight people, cisgender people, won't be able to do. It is a conscious decision where they have to scan the environment, check if there's danger, see if it's okay and take the risk of going, yes I'm going to hold it anyway and hopefully nothing will happen.
00:58:01
Speaker
and hopefully nobody will say some slur along the way or that they'll get bashed. That is not a simple thing for a queer person to do is to hold their hand of a partner and God forbid they decide to have a kiss.
00:58:16
Speaker
Any cisgendered straight person out there gets to do that without consequence, without thinking. So that is why we have the conversations. That is why we live unapologetically. But it is not without its issues right now. And that's why we continue to fight and protest. I agree, because I am not without my issues. We have come far, but there is more to do. So let's keep on keeping on.
00:58:46
Speaker
keep on keeping on. That's vague, but encouraging. Yes. Yes, that's me. I'm like a Hallmark cargo at this stage. That's all I've left in me. Yeah. Thank you for exploring. Yeah. But don't try not to get too fatigued by the fight either, or maybe just, yeah, the fight is important, but save some energy for yourself as well. And for your self care, because
00:59:15
Speaker
that fighting constantly, when you're kind of facing such insurmountable odds, it can seem like sometimes it's a big fierce foe. It is David and Goliath.
Conclusion and Teaser for Next Episode
00:59:26
Speaker
One thing is for sure, because we've already recorded part two of this. And in both episodes, we don't agree. Like, there is polarization on some issues. You can sense that fire, that sense of, like,
00:59:44
Speaker
Yeah, this is kind of one of those issues that I think we touched on in the next one. It's like never talk about money, politics, religion, and we talk about it all. And yeah, there's kind of a little bit of you can sense our individual perspectives in relation to that. But that's great. And I appreciate your individual perspective. So thank you so much.
01:00:09
Speaker
very much Paul and I appreciate you too. Oh I appreciate my Prosecco. How's that going? It's gone. Well it's been interesting to listen back to. Edit it all out but no yes thank you so much. This was part one of queer history so we focused on queer Irish history and our next episode is going to expand
01:00:36
Speaker
to some quite topical stuff as well from the present that still affects us. Because yes, we have to remember where we came from and who went before us, but we also have to acknowledge the struggles that are happening in the world right now. And that is still to come in the next episode of the Play Me Clear podcast. Don't forget, we're not obviously different, just Play Me Clear. Thank you very much.