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Nessa Cronin - Ep 5
233 Plays2 years ago
In this powerful episode, Nessa and I delve into the topics of confidence, body autonomy, and the impact of trauma on women. Nessa challenges the fashion industry's flawed emphasis on the hourglass figure (amongst others) as the ideal body, shedding light on the fact that only 8% of the population naturally possesses this shape. Nessa explores the freedom that comes with accepting our bodies as they are, recognising that our worth is not defined by societal standards.
Nessa Cronin, my extraordinary guest, candidly shares her personal and professional journey. She opens up about the devastating effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, expressing her feelings of letting down her valued customers after closing her shop Vanity Fair. However, through resilience and creativity, Nessa triumphed and created The TRY ON online store, an incredible testament to her unwavering spirit.
Join for an inspiring conversation that will empower you to embrace your uniqueness and celebrate your body. This episode is a must-listen, so tune in and experience the transformative power of self-acceptance. Enjoy!
You can connect with Nessa Cronin through various platforms:
Instagram:
- Nessa Cronin: @NessaCronin
- The Try On: @The_Try_On_
Websites:
- Nessa Cronin: www.NessaCronin.com
- The Try On Fashion Shop: www.thetryonshop.com
Follow Nessa on Instagram and visit her websites to explore more of her work and stay updated on her latest ventures.
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Transcript
Introduction to Nessa Cronin
00:00:00
Speaker
So welcome everybody to today's episode of the Trauma Healing Podcast. And in today's episode, I get to talk to the lovely Nessa Cronin, a talented fashion designer, entrepreneur, and body positivity advocate. I get to talk to her about her experience in the fashion industry, her dedication to promoting inclusivity and body positivity.
Navigating the Pandemic and Launching Tryon
00:00:20
Speaker
I'll be asking if Nessa's years of experience has helped her understand the impact of trauma on body image. If she's aware of how her work is contributing to healing,
00:00:30
Speaker
the old wounds inherited by generations of women before us. We will explore Nessa's response to challenges presented by the pandemic, including the closure of Vanity Fair and how she demonstrated, well, I feel, she demonstrated resilience and huge adaptability by launching the Tryon, an online store recognised also for its commitment to inclusivity and body positivity and a time of great upheaval.
00:00:55
Speaker
Additionally, we'll delve into Nessa's latest venture to find your stripes online course that helps women embrace their bodies, dress with love and care, and we'll discuss how Nessa's openness, honesty, and vulnerability during the pandemic made her a source of inspiration for many, a breath of fresh air in a world where apologizing for being human has become the norm.
Nessa's Journey into Fashion
00:01:15
Speaker
So Nessa, welcome. Thank you for coming on the podcast.
00:01:18
Speaker
Well, thank you so much, Claudia. Well, all that now is the question. But you better. So for those that don't know you, tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you get into fashion? How did you come to be in the career and what was the trajectory for those unfamiliar with your work? Okay. My name is Nessa Cronin. I
00:01:43
Speaker
Got a part-time job when I was in college in a hat shop. I was in college doing a degree in English and French with the thoughts that I would become a teacher, secondary school teacher. And I got a job in a hat shop and I just literally fell in love with retail. Fell in love with customers, the whole pose of retail, how
00:02:02
Speaker
hats in that case, but how fashion just had the ability to transform a woman. A woman would walk through the door, a nervous wreck, and she'd leave feeling on top of the world. And it was just addictive. I just got such a buzz from it. So I decided to open my own hat shop, and that hat shop was closing down.
00:02:20
Speaker
I was doing masters at that stage and I said, oh God, cause I had given up on the teaching idea and I was going to do marketing and go into a corporate life. But I said, no, no, no, no. Can't, can't neglect all these women who, who need hats in that case originally. But then it's kind of naturally progressed. I was, I was wholesaling hats. I was selling into boutiques. I had a lot of customers around the country. This was back in early 2001. So the internet wasn't really a
00:02:47
Speaker
thing where people could, you know, buy their stuff. Yeah, well, golden pages. Yes, of course. Do you remember the golden page? Yeah, and advertising stuff. So I was wholesaling into maybe 60 boutiques around the country. And one of my very large accounts at that time was Vanity Fair in Newbridge. And it was 2010. We were all in the midst of the, you know, global recession, all that.
00:03:15
Speaker
And my little hat shop was suffering and my wholesale business was, you know, customers were closing down. I was losing accounts every week. And anyway, Vanity Fair said that they would also be selling up and I knew who they were planning on selling to and I knew that they wouldn't be buying from me.
Lessons from Vanity Fair
00:03:33
Speaker
So.
00:03:33
Speaker
I bought Fangivare instead. I dipped my toe into the world of fashion. So now I could dress people literally from head to toe. And it was such an eye opener going into a boutique. Number one, Fangivare was a well-oiled machine that was a very successful business.
00:03:56
Speaker
So I was literally learning. I was going into my staff that I had taken on and kept on and I hadn't a clue what I was doing. But I learned on the job and it was very exciting. Absolutely loved it. But it was the most kind of thing that hit me really the most was I was used to women coming through my door in Mad Hatter to buy a hat.
00:04:20
Speaker
you know, and hats and headpieces aren't something that we wear every day, and it's not something that most of us are very comfortable with. So I was used to women there coming in, like I said in the beginning, nervous, you know,
Challenges in Plus-Size Fashion
00:04:32
Speaker
first thing out of their mouth was, now I don't like hats, hats don't suit me, I don't want to wear a hat to this wedding, but I have to wear it, you know. So heading them from that stage to feeling amazing, standing in the middle of the mirror was, you know, was supposed to be. But I didn't realize that that lack of confidence
00:04:49
Speaker
was also there when women were buying clothes. I really didn't know that. I came from a family where my mother was very confident, never asked anybody's opinion on anything she ever did, but least of all what she was wearing.
00:05:06
Speaker
So the notion that people had to like bring their sisters and their husbands and their mothers and their friends to get an opinion and put to hold and I was just like, oh my God, what's going on here? What's what's wrong? You know, and I just I just I just was shocked at the lack of confidence, basically. So I also the lack of confidence in particular from
00:05:32
Speaker
let's say larger size customers, you know, plus size customers. Although I don't know, I still don't know how I feel about that term 10 years into selling plus size clothing. I still don't know if it's an okay term, but anyway, look, it is what it is. But yeah,
Creating a Judgment-Free Shopping Experience
00:05:47
Speaker
I don't know. I just wanted to create a space, I suppose. And I did create a space where women of all shapes and sizes fell safe, knew that they could come in and not be judged.
00:05:59
Speaker
and knew that they wouldn't be looked up and down and told, oh, no, there's nothing here to fit you. How did you do that? How did you know you were doing it? Well, I was blessed, I suppose, with the staff. And I mean, like I said, I took on the staff that were already there and how we ended up in each other's lives. I'll never really fully understand this.
00:06:20
Speaker
synchronicities that I suppose. They were just such a wonderful bunch of women and they totally got me. They got my vision and they leaned into it a hundred percent and I was just blessed with them. They just
00:06:38
Speaker
helped me, you know, create that space because you couldn't do it without them. You yourself have to be on board for that, you know. Absolutely, yes. The only thing is the environment, you know. Yeah, exactly. The only thing is wanting to look somebody up and down and all of a sudden, you know. So I was blessed with them. They were just angel women who had just come into my life. And like I said, just got me, just got the vision. So it was a wonderful space. It was a magical shop. It was a big shop. We did everything from occasion where right down to, you know, work trousers,
00:07:08
Speaker
But there really was something for everyone. There was different styles, different vibes with stock from size eight to 28. It was just, it was a magical, magical place. Were there any challenges or obstacles to creating that? Well, I suppose in terms of trying to find stock in the, in the larger sizes was always an ongoing challenge and still is particularly online. It's even harder, but.
00:07:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that would have been a major challenge because most of the stuff, unfortunately, that you could get in the size 20 up would be quite old fashioned, dated. So I had a lovely, young, vibrant customer come into my door now and I was hoping to find stuff that I could find. And I used to say when I would go buying, you know, from those ranges in particular, I used to say, unless I wear it myself,
00:08:04
Speaker
not unless I wear it myself, but unless I would buy it for my size 8, 10, 12 customer, I'm not buying it for my size 20, 22, 24 customer. Just because it's the only thing that's available. I do without it. I'm not going to just... It sounds like you took care. Yeah. You know, rather than, well, that's just what's available. Yeah. No, no, no. And I mean,
00:08:26
Speaker
Now with my online business with the Tryon it's very hard to get stock that goes over the size 20 and I really feel, I really feel in lots of ways that I'm letting that customer that I had nurtured and had placed their faith in me for 10 years. I do struggle a bit with the fact that I feel that I've kind of let them down but it's a totally different product that I'm selling now you know. Vangifier was very high-end and I suppose there was a better choice available and the choice is available
00:08:54
Speaker
available to me now in a much more affordable product, you know, 30 to 50 euro on average is the price point now, as opposed to, you know, 250 to 1,000 euro in Vancouver. I do feel that, but at the same time, I'm not prepared to just buy the manual thing. You know, I don't want to do, I don't want to be able to offer something that I would, like I said, that I wouldn't offer my size to our customer. Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:21
Speaker
So I have, I do, I am finding that a struggle at the moment. I'm finding that a struggle to kind of
00:09:30
Speaker
get that clear in my head and now I have a different business and I just can't be all things to all people anymore, you know. Well you see you're trying to honour it though. Yeah. Because you know the struggle, you know how hard it is to find the clothes in the first place. Yeah. And as you say, having developed that reputation, it's hard to... I can feel, I suppose, you're wanting to honour that. Yeah. But it's just not possible. Yeah. Yeah, it's just not possible at the moment, but
00:09:59
Speaker
watch this space you never know what's coming down the road clauda oh with you i never yeah i have a feeling there's something coming down the road you'll find a gap and you'll go right you can plug that
00:10:10
Speaker
Okay, so then in 2020, the pandemic, he had to close down Vanity Fair.
Impact of the Pandemic on Vanity Fair
00:10:18
Speaker
That's really when I started following you, just as the pandemic hit. Look at you, you joined me at my worst. I don't know whether I'd even say that, but you did and you have described it as traumatic. And, you know, I saw the days where you were showing up and devastated. Absolutely.
00:10:39
Speaker
devastated. I mean, traumatic isn't isn't like it was I'll never forget it. I'll never forget the the emotion of it all because it was much more than and I remember the post I put out on social media when I had to announce to the public because obviously we knew for a couple of weeks in the run up to us that this was happening, you know. And in fact, the week before I put the post on social media to say we were closing was actually our 10 year birthday.
00:11:09
Speaker
and Kildare, County Kildare was in the middle of localised lockdown and there wasn't a sinner coming through my door because Valentine Bear was a destination boutique, people travelled from our country to us, you know, and there was no weddings on, there was no nothing on, like my business had literally, the rug had been pulled out from underneath me and I, a lot of my staff were older staff, I was very worried about them, I was worried, it was just, I'll never, I will never forget it, sometimes I look through my archive on Instagram or if somebody
00:11:39
Speaker
hasn't sent me a message in a couple of years and I scroll back and they send me a message and I scroll back and I look up what they last responded to and I go into that story and oh my God, I mean I was like, I was, I don't know what I was like, I was like something round up but it's all like a distant faded memory of something that happened to somebody else but yet it's still
00:12:04
Speaker
very raw as well at the same time now, you know. But anyways, Kildare was in the middle of a localised lockdown and it was our 10-year birthday and there was people tagging me on Instagram and messaging and congratulations and I knew then. You were heartbroken, I imagine. I was devastated, absolutely devastated, because I knew, I felt, and I suppose this came up for me, this came up for me, I went, okay,
00:12:28
Speaker
Our birthday, let's say, for Vanity Fair was the 20th of August and we closed on the 27th of August 2021 after 10 years in one week. And like I said, I had poured my heart and soul into creating something really, really special and magical in Vanity Fair. And last year, last summer, I wanted to do something on, cause I hadn't felt strong enough in 2021 or 20, you know, it just,
00:12:53
Speaker
I just let the day go by me. But in 2022, I wanted to kind of mark the day and do something for myself or something. I don't know. Anyway, I ended up growing up for a yoga retreat down in Galway. Yeah, organized by Sinead from Two to Beating Ireland and her sister, Gillian. And I had never done yoga in my life. Never, ever, ever done yoga. I'd never been to a retreat day. I'd never done anything like that. Don't know why I went. But anyway, best thing I ever did. I went down and
00:13:23
Speaker
Literally, as soon as the day started, I just started crying, like, so this would have been two years later, on the 20th of August, 2022. So it would have been our 12 year birthday, let's say. Yeah. And I just spent the day crying, but it came a lot came up, you know, a lot came up about the drama I had gone through and lose my because it was so much more than losing a business. It was I had lost a whole network of women
00:13:51
Speaker
that I used to spend all my days with. I saw those women that worked there more than I saw my
00:13:59
Speaker
friends and family, you know, I spent more time with them than I spent with my husband, like they were my life. So I had lost that very supportive network of women who really had my back, you know, and loved me and I loved them. So that was, I hadn't kind of recognized the loss of that. Yeah. And that's fine, but it's not the same, you know, when you're
00:14:26
Speaker
not working together in such a close, it's not the same. So I had lost that. I had lost a lot of money as well, but forget about that. I had lost, I felt, it came up that I felt that I had really let my customers down. You know, I had let, because I knew that there was a lot of people that traveled to Vancouver once or twice a year to get themselves sorted for whatever they had coming up. And
00:14:55
Speaker
I knew that they felt incredibly safe walking through our doors. I knew that they had lost a place that they could go where they 100% knew they wouldn't be judged on anything and that they would find something fabulous to wear as well. You know, that they'd feel amazing when they were leaving. Like, they'd feel great. They'd spend an hour with us. We'd dicky them up. We'd have the crack. It would be great crack and they'd go home happy out. And I felt huge guilt that
00:15:25
Speaker
they didn't have that space any longer. And of course there are other shops, you know, all over the country there are boutiques doing a wonderful job. But, and I'm not saying that I suppose the best, but to me it was, you know. It was something you created and nurtured. Yeah. And to a lot of my customers, I know it was too. And I was very upset by the fact that that was gone from them. And then I went through kind of feelings of like, did I try hard enough to save it? Could I have managed?
00:15:55
Speaker
to get through us, but I couldn't have, you know, my financial obligations were just much too high and I'd be, I would have ended up having nervous breakdown some stage in 2021 if I had stage, you know, so I did at the time what was best for me. And I knew that at the time that this was the best decision for me and my suppliers and everybody else that I would have been racking up debt to, but
00:16:24
Speaker
I did go through last year. I did say, you know, did I, did I let people down and did I give up on it too soon? And that just brought up a whole load of other emotions, I suppose, you know? Yeah. It's a lot to carry and it's a lot to process. Yeah. I suppose from my perspective, I was watching you go through that. Obviously there was a lot going on behind the scene, but then you were in the process of
00:16:52
Speaker
putting the try-on together quite soon afterwards. How did you manage that? How did you find the energy? Well, in Vanity Fair, so up until the day we closed our door, well, every day it was in March 2020, I had been adamant that I would never, ever, ever sell as much as a sock
00:17:14
Speaker
online. That online retail was work of the devil and that it was going to kill bricks and mortar business and that like I wouldn't even consider the possibility that it could have been added on the benefit to a business or no I was having none of it. I had been accepted for going for growth in the January 2020 and we had only had two of our monthly meetings
00:17:39
Speaker
Sorry, Gone for Growth is a programme for female entrepreneurs, very good programme. But anyway, I joined the year of the pandemic, so I'm not sure I got the best promise. We were all struggling to survive rather than go for growth. But I, yeah, at those first two meetings, you know,
00:17:56
Speaker
my mentor, my lead and so for saying, you know, would you not go online? And I was like, having none of it. But when we had to close our doors, then my customers really rallied. Like, I'm really lucky. I mean, I spoke about how lucky I was with my staff and Vantifier, but I am blessed with my customers. I mean, I couldn't ask for better customers, you know, which again, I suppose was part of the whole drama feeling that I let them down. But anyway, they were
00:18:24
Speaker
They were messing with me saying, Nessa, get into the fitting room and try on clothes and let us buy the stuff and figure out a way. So I started up this WhatsApp messaging where I could try stuff on in the fitting room. They messaged me. I'd take their, I'd have to answer the mark. I'd take the credit card details over the phone. It was chaotic. And then we weren't allowed to leave our house. So I was doing it from my bedroom and I was down at the kitchen table and I was bringing stuff. It was just,
00:18:52
Speaker
absolute madness and Deena said to me listen this can't continue you can't be because on the WhatsApp thing somebody would say can I get to 16 and those black trousers and I'd mess them back and say yeah uh send me your yeah I'll ring you now for your credit card pieces let me know when I can ring you and then I wouldn't hear from them and then the next message would be looking for the same thing and it was just you know chaotic so Deena said listen we need to get this up online pretty soon so we did
00:19:16
Speaker
Well, he did. And we were then selling through Vanity Fair online, but it was we were very limited in the type of stock we could sell because nobody needed occasionware. And 90% of our stock was occasionware.
00:19:30
Speaker
So nobody wanted any of that, but they did want, you know, jumpers, hoodies, leggings. The OB belts are what I remember. OB belts, yeah. I don't know where they were all going in their OB belts. We were selling OB belts like they were going out of fashion. It was madness. So I had gotten up and running online, but like I said, with the pandemic and the circumstances I've brought, that there was no occasions and people did not need it to, or did your address to go to a wedding, I was very limited in what I could sell.
00:19:59
Speaker
Does this feel like it was giving you hope?
Transition to Tryon
00:20:03
Speaker
Yes, exactly. So I did see that there was a way to still have a business but have it online. So yeah, we started up the try-on then in October 2020 and have been going strong ever since. So that's my story of hope with the try-on. But again, what I wanted to do with the try-on was
00:20:29
Speaker
create as much of the magic of anti-fair as I possibly could within an online space. So I didn't just want it to be, I didn't just want to have a website where there was pictures of models and dresses and a selection of sizes underneath and you bought whichever one, whichever size you need. I wanted it to be more interactive. I wanted to see in as much as possible. I wanted to see each garment I was selling on different bodies. So I was
00:20:57
Speaker
posting stuff out to people around the country to try stuff on for me and send me videos. And then I'd upload them on Friday nights and you'd get to see the joggers on, you know, somebody who was a size 18 and somebody who was a size eight and somebody who was a 14. And so I created kind of, I suppose, a little, I tried to keep the, to keep pop is special about Vanity Fair going online, basically.
00:21:21
Speaker
But again, with a much different product, with a much more casual product. And how do you feel now, you know, this time on with the Tryon established and even more being established, and we will go into that, but looking back on Vanity Fair now, how do you feel about, I know you mentioned it feels like it was a different person and yet at the same time it feels raw. Yeah, it's still very raw. Like it's still only a few weeks ago.
00:21:49
Speaker
somebody sent me in a picture of themselves and said, this is the last dress I bought in Vanity Fair. And like the tears just automatically came, you know, they're there, ready to come. And I need to, you know, or I drove, when I go to Newbridge now, I drive around the, I never took the back road around Newbridge. I always drove down the main street. And for some reason, a couple of months ago, I drove down the main street. I was talking to somebody on the phone on hands-free.
00:22:19
Speaker
And I suppose the car just automatically drove down the main street rather than turn around the back. And next thing, it was there on my left as I was driving down and it's now a dentist. And I literally felt like I'd been punched in the stomach and I had to pull into Dunn's car park down the road and just cry for 10 minutes. I lost a lot of myself, I was going to say.
00:22:48
Speaker
I did, yeah, I did lose a lot of myself when I lost that job, but I also found other sides of myself that I didn't know were there, you know, I didn't know I was as resilient and
00:23:03
Speaker
creative, I suppose, and able to adapt, you know, I wouldn't have... Did you not? Did you have no clue? Because that, I mean, for me, I suppose, coming into it, just when I did, that's all I saw. Really? No, I... You were so creative, so adaptable and so resilient. And even that piece of, like, you know, I mean, you showed up on Instagram and you would cry and say this, I'm devastated or this is upsetting or, you know, this message. And it was so, so refreshing. Now we were all heartbroken watching it.
00:23:33
Speaker
I know, I know. But it's quite interesting to hear you say, I didn't know I had that because I knew I had that ability to show up and be myself. I was always like, even before the pandemic, I mean, life wasn't better roses of anti-pare, there was often struggles and there was huge financial pressure and stuff and I'd often be
00:23:55
Speaker
on Snapchat crying under the chair when the girls had all begun home and I'd lock the door and I'd just sit down and have a good cry and I would show that on Snapchat. So I'd always been very honest and bearing myself with my customers.
00:24:11
Speaker
on social media so that that wasn't new to anyone that might have been a bit shocking for you if you only joined at that point but but people who'd been there from the snapchat snapchat days were well used to me crying under the chair crying under the stairs on my little stool i had a little stool yeah but but i didn't really i suppose know that i could like i was very safe i suppose in mangy fare you know it
00:24:41
Speaker
it was, I was just doing my thing. And it was, I didn't know that I would be as creative in a business way as I proved to be to myself, you know, so I learned a lot about myself as well. It wasn't all bad things, you know, I mean, it's, it's terrible, like the whole pandemic was was just awful for everybody. And I, you know, people who feel that they didn't lose any
00:25:11
Speaker
thing or, and again, at the time as well, and even still when I talk about it, I'm very worried about it. I didn't lose a member of my family. I only lost a business, you know? And people went through the most horrific things, like my friends went through horrific things, losing family members. And so
00:25:34
Speaker
You know, you kind of say, this is only a shop, like, you know, you have to you have to pick yourself up and get over this.
00:25:42
Speaker
There is a way we can kind of, you know, put a, put an understanding of it and we do tell ourselves, you know, it's only this, it's not as bad as, but from your experience or what you're, you're describing there is waves of grief, similar to that. You know, loss is loss. Yeah. Whether it's a financial loss, whether it's a person, whether it's a pet. Yeah, it was, and it was the, the emotions were very much like the, the feelings when I lost my father.
00:26:11
Speaker
Back in 2009, so I mean, a long time ago now, but those few years after that, I was hugely affected by that loss. It was the first time in my life that anyone that I actually cared about had ever died. And I didn't realize, I really didn't realize how traumatic and shocking death
00:26:29
Speaker
was really you know i'd never felt before i had the experience yeah i'd had a nana who died but like i was younger she was an old woman of course she was going to die you know but when my father died i felt i mean i was in shock i couldn't believe that the world kept on turning and that i was expected to get up and go to work and that
00:26:48
Speaker
people were in supermarket buying their dinners and I was like, excuse me, my father has just died. Does that even like, it was horrendous. My world totally changed. And losing Vancouver was very, very similar to that. It was grief. It was loss. Yeah, it really was.
00:27:06
Speaker
Like it was, it was as heartbroken and, you know, when you'd wake up in the morning and those that millisecond that you forget, that millisecond that you're not aware of. And then it all comes back. And yeah, it's like, it was, it was very similar to grief. Yeah. Okay. Do you think you now believe, given what you've done or what you've made of this, that you do believe how creative you are and resilient?
00:27:34
Speaker
I do now, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah. When did you realize that? Sure. Well, the thing with businesses, I suppose you have to be, I mean, I have to keep even the last, you know, two and a half years since the try and you have to keep reinventing yourself all the time. It's the constant.
00:27:52
Speaker
struggle to keep your customers with you and entertained you know it's a bit like a soap opera it's like what are we going to do next you know so yeah I mean definitely and again being online has brought out that
00:28:07
Speaker
Let's go with business creativity much more because again, when you're in a shop every day, you know you have customers walking through your door every day. So you tend to get safe and you don't have to kind of reinvent the wheel, you know, every few months. But with an online business, I find anyway, in my experience, that you do, you have to keep doing
Reconnecting with Customers through Pop-Ups
00:28:27
Speaker
new things. So last year we introduced the idea of doing pop-up shops around the country, which is amazing. And I absolutely love doing them.
00:28:37
Speaker
Because again, I'm back with my customer. Now they're busy and they're hectic and they're go, go, go. It's not like, it's not the same as what a fancy pair was by any means where, you know, you're one-on-one with just one customer at a time and all that. So it's different, but it has brought me back to my customer and back to seeing her reaction.
00:28:57
Speaker
to herself in the clothes, rather than just posting it out to them and getting messages saying, oh, I got my dress, it's lovely. Thanks. You know, yeah, yeah, you get a lovely buzz back in my life and has brought me a lot of joy this year. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm loving, loving them.
00:29:14
Speaker
What about you know so your interactions have obviously reinforced the belief the importance of body positivity and inclusivity so can you share like what what would you use like the clients to feel more comfortable to feel more confidence in their own skin like is it is it a something is it just something you naturally have and always have done.
00:29:35
Speaker
Or is there ways that you create that and provide that for a client? And I know Amy works with you in the pop-ups as well, and she was in Vanity Fair. So is that something that you strategize about, or is it just you have it? No, not in the lease. We've never even had a conversation about like, no, no. And I mean, I don't really know what strategy do I use to help people feel more comfortable. I don't. I just, I don't.
00:30:05
Speaker
put them in nice clothes and show them how beautiful they are, really. It's really that simple. And I love when somebody says, oh God, no, I wouldn't try that. And I said, go on, try it. And they go, oh God, no, I wouldn't. Oh no, I'd never wear that. And I said, go on, just entertain me, humor me. And then they come out and go, oh my God, look at me in this. I would never thought I could wear that. And I just love the whole buzz of making women see themselves for what they are, which is fabulous creations of,
00:30:34
Speaker
Fabulousness, you know, I don't have another word for us. Like, and every woman deserves to feel.
00:30:41
Speaker
amazing in what she puts on her every day. Like, people who don't get a joy from clothing kind of are like an enigma to me. Like, I don't, I don't understand how. Your passion word is just there. Yeah, I don't understand how you wouldn't love clothes and love shopping. You know, I go shopping with people as well. And they're like, Oh, God, I don't know how you I don't know how you can look to those rails and you know, I don't know where you get the energy to be in and out of fitting rooms and stuff. And I'm like, Oh, my God, this is like,
00:31:08
Speaker
heaven for me. I love it. Your grounding seems to be. Those have such a power over how you feel, you know. Yeah. I mean, they're the easiest things in the world to throw on and throw off. So it's not like dyeing your hair a different color where you have to commit to a certain amount of time where you're going to look like this. Just change. It doesn't work. You're not in the mood for today. I mean, they have such a
00:31:39
Speaker
power over how we feel. I really do think that clothes on like any other thing are magic. I've heard you talk about this and I talked to you about this as well and we talked about the trauma around women's bodies and what they hold and I suppose there's a number of different angles and you know you would have witnessed the shifts and perspectives around women's bodies you know it was the Marilyn Monroe and then it was the Kate Moss and then it was
00:32:07
Speaker
just emaciated and then back to the full body figure. What are the recent trends that are movements and positivity or negativity in this regard that you think are affecting women from wanting to go to the shelf, wanting to be seen in a fitting room or try something on in case they're seen in a certain way? Honestly, I think that I mean, I don't know anything. You are the trauma specialist. I don't know anything about trauma, but I do know that every woman I've ever met can tell me
00:32:37
Speaker
something about something that somebody said to them 100 years ago or 10 years ago or when they were five or when they were 12 or there's something in every woman's head that somebody said something to them and they have held that belief forever and they've also held the feeling of how it made them feel at that time. They haven't been able to let that
00:33:05
Speaker
feeling go and that association. So, I mean, it can be something as simple as, oh, my mother told me that I should never wear red because I've red hair. So my mother told me that I can't wear red. How am I looking at it going? Are you serious? Too much worth things, you know, that somebody, you know, whatever, but somebody passed comment on somebody's size or something, but
00:33:30
Speaker
The way women hold these little beliefs around with themselves and for the rest of their lives that they exclude every red top from their tarts in a shop is absolute nonsense because anybody can wear whatever they want to wear as long as they wear it with confidence. I really do believe... They're happy with it in their body. Exactly.
00:33:53
Speaker
You know, one of the things I wanted to, you know, for me, as coming from the trauma side of things, you know, I would have looked at transgenerational trauma.
Body Image and Inherited Views
00:34:01
Speaker
So this refers to the transmission of trauma through generations, such as abuse, neglect, violence from one generation to the next. The trauma occurs through various mechanisms, but its parenting practice, its cultural norms, the societal structures.
00:34:15
Speaker
And in the context of inherited views on women's bodies, transgenerational trauma can influence how women perceive and value their bodies. And I think that's what stops a lot of women from enjoying the process, going into the bricks and mortar, or even going online and showing interest in it. So I do think you have encountered it. So what do you think is the counterbalance to that?
00:34:45
Speaker
undo that narrative? How do we heal that part of the trauma? I suppose it's visibility, number one. And social media is always knocked for lots of things and should be knocked for lots of things. But it also, depending on who you follow, it can also be a lovely space. Because you need to see, first, there's an expression.
00:35:09
Speaker
You need to see it to know you can do it or something like that. So there are lots of women with all sorts of different bodies and sizes and shapes online living their best life and wearing whatever they want and living perfectly happy fulfilled lives. And I think it's really important for girls or whatever who might be a certain size to see that.
00:35:38
Speaker
because for my generation, I'm 48, it was never seen for, you know, everybody that you saw on television or in magazines or in ads were always the,
00:35:51
Speaker
the perfect size eight fabulous, tall, gorgeous figure, you know, and that's great. Those people exist. I've lots of customers who are fabulously gorgeous five foot 10 size eight models as well, but it's not the majority, you know, it's only a certain amount of women because every woman is different. So I think visibility, I think seeing as many women use in advertising where it's not about being plus, like,
00:36:17
Speaker
dove I think are great for that they do. It's just your body and taking care of your body. Yeah, I think always have an ad as well where it's not about somebody being plus size, it's just a woman wearing santry tails and she just happens to be a plus size, you know it's just so things like that need to become more normal where we just see
00:36:37
Speaker
bodies of all shapes and sizes just portrayed to us normally in a natural way where it's not about being plus size where it's just this is the model in this ad you know and she happens to be a size 20 big deal that's like why are we even talking about it but at the moment it is new and it is something that businesses are doing in a new way so it is something then that that kind of promotes conversation about but it will be great in another few years if it just wasn't even spoken about
00:37:07
Speaker
Yeah. You know, just nothing. Do you think we're going to get there? I think we are. I do think we are. Yeah. I do think we are. The other thing I think as well to heal, you had a very fancy word for it. What was it? Transgenerational trauma. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really important for women to know that when they speak negatively about their own bodies,
00:37:34
Speaker
that number one, they're passing on that message to their children or to the younger people in their life. I don't have children myself, but I will be very aware of the way I would speak about myself in front of my nieces and things like that when they were smaller. Like you really shouldn't say anything negative about your body, you know, at all, because you are listening to your words as well. So it's not good for you either. But it's also not a good message. So if we could just stop
00:38:03
Speaker
It's also an untrue message. The basic foundation is it's not true. You have a body and that's the end of it. Exactly. That is the end of it. It's just a body. I remember being a kid and the women, my mom and her friends and people I so admired and the constant message was, oh, I can't eat that. I can't wear that. I can't do this because I'm this. It was all down to how I looked on
00:38:31
Speaker
my size or all of that. And me as a kid thought these women were the most brilliant, fantastic. And if they were thinking that what was wrong with my body, I have to be. And it really does have an impact. Exactly. So we need to stop talking about our bodies full stop. It's so hard, it's so ingrained in the conversation. It's everywhere. Once you start, once you notice it,
00:38:58
Speaker
It is everywhere. It is everywhere. And it's, it's something that I suppose it's just learned. I'm like, I even have to, to, sometimes I catch myself saying things, I come on Instagram and I say, Oh God, the state of my life. What's wrong with my hair? Like stop apologizing for who you are. You know, this is where you are today. It's fine. Get over it. Because we, we place too much value on our appearance, really.
00:39:25
Speaker
Because it's the least, I say this often as well, it's the least interesting thing about us. It really is. And people who love you don't love you because of the way you look. That's the last thing. If you ask the people who love you what they love about you, no one is going to say, and I love the fact that
00:39:46
Speaker
you're a size 12. No one's going to say that. Or I love the fact that you're not a size 22. No one's going to say that. People love you lovely for you. It's nothing to do with your body. Yeah. It's quite something. I read the June of Eating book that was recommended by
00:40:06
Speaker
remember her name, but I do follow her through Reading Ireland. And I remember saying to my friends going, I feel like I find this tough going because I realise I've been in an abusive relationship and it was because of the language, it was because of how I was treating myself.
00:40:22
Speaker
how it was around me. And I know that's not an isolated incident. It's not just, it's very normal to go, oh God, stay to me and I shouldn't be wearing this and I should, and punish myself if I've eaten the night before. Well, then I have to eat nothing until a certain time or, you know, rubbish. But it was a really, it was a really eye-opening going, oh my God, this is the truth of it. And,
00:40:49
Speaker
It's something, I don't know, it's something I still battle with. It's something I still don't have a handle on. And of course it's really changing. Yeah. And of course we don't have a handle on yet, but it is, it is a journey. Like it's something you have to, there's a lot to unlearn. Yeah.
00:41:06
Speaker
So it's not just about learning new ways, you have to get rid of all the things you've learned before. And again, generations of us, you know, you have to unlearn all the things your Nana said to you when you were five. You know, it's massive. So it's not going to happen overnight, but it is up to us, our generation, to make sure that it's easier, that there's less to unpack, that there's less to unlearn for the next generation coming up.
00:41:37
Speaker
What do you think, what stereotypes or myths are perpetuating the beliefs at the moment?
00:41:45
Speaker
perpetuation but sorry? These beliefs so like you know you talk about it in your course about the myths around I actually have this I remember being told by a very good friend of mine an Irish Colleen should never be seen in green or blue and green or something like that and I remember not wearing that you know or. Listen the fashion industry is full of absolute
00:42:10
Speaker
like myths as to self-deport, like lies, you know? But again, they get in on women. They get in on women. Like, I don't know when the whole thing about women's arms became a thing, but I have no memory of my mother. Now, my mother is 86 now, right? I have no memory of her or her friends or my aunties talking about their arms. I really don't.
00:42:37
Speaker
They were all, you know, your childhood memories were always fabulous summers and we were on beaches and they were in summer dresses or in the garden or whatever, and they weren't talking about their arms. But somewhere, some day, somebody, some stylist on television decided that women's arms needed to be covered up. I don't know. But all of a sudden, women needed sleeves to cover their arms because their arms were, you know, so this dress was fabulous because it has sleeves for arm coverage.
00:43:08
Speaker
Like, listen, I'm always cold. I always have a sleeve pulled, pulled right down to my, you know, so sleeves are fabulous. I love sleeves because they keep you warm, but there's nothing wrong with it. So, I mean, there's a little, or knees, you know, I can't show my knees, but as long as there's somebody on, like if somebody is on, if you've never thought about your knees, right? You've never given your knees a moment's touch. And then you hear somebody on television say,
00:43:36
Speaker
This dress is great length because it covers her knees. And then you... That's a similar message then, that you start saying, covers her knees. All right, so should we be covering her knees? Hang on now, what's wrong with her knees? Give us a look at my knees.
00:43:49
Speaker
Jesus, are they not normal knees? And it builds then from there, you know? And all of a sudden we have women going around and evaluating what they're going to wear depending on if it covers their arms or their knees, you know? Because somebody has determined that
00:44:08
Speaker
Ex-person's knees shouldn't be seen. Like, what is that about? Or ankles? Or, I mean, I have a sister who's the thing about the back of her elbows. Like, what? No. So I remember the world with all these different things. The message of the coming left, right and centre. We didn't look at ourselves in the mirror and decide that the back of her, somebody told her that. Or somebody mentioned somewhere that, you know, have your elbows. It was an outside source.
00:44:36
Speaker
you know, that gave her that message or that gave all these from these messages about who's the person that needs to be covered or they weren't acceptable or didn't look the way they're supposed to in the eyes of who.
Critiquing Fashion Industry Myths
00:44:49
Speaker
Yeah. I suppose that's the there's another huge unlearning piece going what are the rules you're living by in the clothes that you wear as in two high parts of your body? Yeah, that are based on nothing. Yeah. Nothing.
00:45:04
Speaker
Okay. So I want to, I want to talk about find your stripes then. Okay. So this is a new course that you've created tonight. You did this over the lockdown as well. I'm terrible with timelines. I did January, 2021, because I had started the trial in October 20.
00:45:22
Speaker
And in the videos when I'm, so I'm selling clothes basically, but I'm doing videos of the top or whatever it is, dress or whatever on me and on somebody else. And I usually like somebody else to be either a different size to me or a different height or in some way different. And I described then the fit of how it fits me as a five foot seven, size 12, who's got broad shoulders.
00:45:47
Speaker
And as opposed to how it fits somebody who is the size 18 to 20 with narrow shoulders and wider hip or whatever it is. And just to say somebody to, you know, with the Tryon, you have multiple models for the same clothes. So you get to see what it's like on your body. And I know Jess is another model and she has a different type of body and it might be two or three.
00:46:10
Speaker
that you showed on so people can go, oh, well, I'm more like done. Yes. Yeah. So that was the whole concept of the trial. And so, but I noticed that when I was doing those videos then up on Instagram, and I would say things like, this hits, you know, this is, I don't know, Ruth is five foot one. This is
00:46:34
Speaker
fits her fine here but it's a little bit long on the shoulder because she would have a short torso whatever I was using language that people were messing with me saying what do you mean short torso how do I know about the short torso what does that mean or you know how jumpsuits will fit or how the waistline of a dress
00:46:51
Speaker
will suit a particular body shape and it will just never suit a different body shape so if a dress is very very wasted in its structure and has no stretch in the fabric it's not going to suit an apple shape figure it's made for an hourglass figure or a rectangle can get away with it or a pear shape can get away with it but
00:47:08
Speaker
It's not suited for, like clothes aren't magic. They don't suit everybody. You know, we're all different, or rather, sorry, I'm afraid that language, they do suit everyone. They don't always fit correctly on everyone though. And that's really what it's about. It's about understanding the fit of different cuts and shapes.
00:47:26
Speaker
according to your body shape. And I think really important there is your interpretation of it not fitting. Exactly. For, for, for what I got out of this is like, if something didn't fit me is going, my body is wrong. No, no, no, no.
00:47:41
Speaker
No, that's what I used to, like I don't anymore. But like in, in, in, in the course, you talk about the different body shapes and the percentages of the different body shapes. So like, for example, the hourglass is said to be the idealized body. However, what's the actual percentage of hourglass figures is? And you look, sorry, 8% of women have an hourglass figure.
00:48:03
Speaker
And yet that's the figure that we're all supposed to have. And that's the figure that the fashion industry makes for in the vast majority of cases. That's who is making clothes for that idealized figure. There's only 8% of women that can actually fit those clothes correctly without needing some alteration or going up a size or down a size or whatever.
Fashion Sizing and Self-Esteem
00:48:25
Speaker
The other thing I go through in the course is sizing because sizing is an absolute minefield. And I think, you know, once you understand
00:48:34
Speaker
sizing the way I explained it in the course, you will never again feel frustrated when something doesn't fit you because it's got nothing to do with you. There's so many different factors at play when a company is sizing their garment. You as the customer are the last thing on their mind, literally. There's so many different things that come into sizing. So
00:49:00
Speaker
And the course is fabulous. I started in, in very small scale in 2021. And then I just got busy and stuff and I left it off, but I've launched it now in March, just last month. I launched again. It's very, very, a lot of hard work, but it's, it's, I think it's a great course to be honest. And I think, I honestly think, and I mean, I don't keep coming on Instagram and saying this, but I honestly think that every woman should, should listen to it because it's so, it just.
00:49:31
Speaker
It's taken from a years of experience of seeing different bodies, knowing what works on different people, knowing what might need alteration in order to make it work. And it just goes through everything. I mean, if you watch it and you don't feel, oh yeah, sure, and grunt afterwards, you know, then I don't know what else to say, but it's informative about, like I said, about your, it breaks down the body shapes. You speak the truth.
00:50:00
Speaker
You speak the truth, you educate on what a body is, what a body not isn't, but like, you know, as you're saying, if the idealized version of what you keep looking, wanting to look like is that hourglass figure, and you're not an hourglass, you're going to
00:50:17
Speaker
inverted commas here fail every time you put a dress on or stand in front of a mirror because I'm not that I should diet and I should change the shape of my body and as you say in the course you cannot change the shape of your body but you can accept this is everybody has different body shapes everybody has different body sizes and I can dress my body in the way that I feel
00:50:41
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. Because you can't change your body shape. You know, like I say on the course, no, like if you're a strawberry shaped body, it doesn't matter how many squats you do in the gym or how many, whatever you do or how much eat or how little eat or whatever you do, you're never going to have hips. You're never going to have
00:51:02
Speaker
roundy, curved hips and full ties and a full bottom. It's never gonna happen for you, you know? Same way, if you're a pair, the reverse, you're never going to have, you know, strong broad shoulders where clothes just hang beautifully. It's never gonna happen. They're always gonna catch you on the hip and stuff, and they're never gonna fill you. They're always going to generally be too big on top. So it's about finding shapes that suit you, finding fabrics that suit you, and learning how to accept what you are, because again,
00:51:32
Speaker
that pear shape is never going to have the strawberry's hips and the strawberry is never going to have the pear's hips. It's just, you know, it's just never going to happen like no matter what they do. So it's about accepting. And again, sometimes I get a bit of not criticism, but a bit of debate in my messages about, you know, you know, that I'm anti, I don't know, the messaging that I should be
00:51:59
Speaker
How will I put this? Sometimes I have little debates in my messages for people who think that I'm not promoting, let's say, a healthy lifestyle. I don't know, right? That people should be struggling with businesses. A healthy lifestyle is a size six or a size eight. It's usually under the umbrella of yes, Vanessa, people's health.
00:52:20
Speaker
inverted commas and, you know, don't, don't get me started on that one. But what I will say is my course is about learning to accept who you are now. So I am not here to judge anyone who is on a weight loss. I wish to God they didn't feel the need to be, but I'm not here to judge them no matter what they decide they want their body to look like in three months time and next month or in a year's time.
00:52:44
Speaker
That is their own business. I'm not qualified to comment on that. I don't know enough. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a psychologist. I'm nothing. I'm literally just here to help you find clothes that you love and feel amazing in. That's all I want you. That's all I want you because I am about making people feel comfortable now. So I don't care what your body's going to look like next month or in two months time after you've done X, Y and Z to us. That's your own business.
00:53:12
Speaker
I want you to realise that the body you have now, before you start that journey, is equally as worthy of feeling valued, loved, cared for, admired, appreciated, as it will be when you're finished whatever journey you're
Embracing Body Acceptance
00:53:30
Speaker
on. You know, it's the body you have now, it's the body that you have to work with. So that body deserves to have
00:53:38
Speaker
beautiful clothes or clothes that you feel comfortable in or you know so like so many times people say oh god no I can't I won't buy anything now because you know I'm on a weight loss journey and I'm not buying any new clothes.
00:53:54
Speaker
okay, but you've nothing in your order that fits you properly. So why would you just because you're on a journey, probably would you not, you know, like that's going to feed into I don't feel good in my body, nothing fits me and therefore kind of perpetuating, you know, this already ongoing belief that I'm not okay in this body. Yeah, okay in this body. You are like, you're fine. I wish I had you when I was like in school or something like that, or like that, that course. I know a lot so early.
00:54:23
Speaker
A lot of people have asked me to say after watching the course have said, oh my God, I wish I'd known this in school. Yeah. Yeah. I for years, and I think I still am because that unlearning, as you say, is the process. Like I don't work with eating disorders. I don't work because I want to not qualify, but also as well, like.
00:54:42
Speaker
growing up in this world, where, you know, Kate Moss was saying, and nothing tastes as good as skinny fields, I was like, yes, like, that's, she knows what she's talking about. So I have a disordered viewers, because that's all I was surrounded with.
00:54:57
Speaker
you know, the process of doing it now is is really, you know, a piece by piece process. And learning, actually, this is my body shape. That's it. That's it. I find that so empowering.
00:55:14
Speaker
I actually don't need to battle anymore because I'm not going to get to that idealized version of when I'm scrolling through Instagram and I'm looking going, oh, that's what I want to look like. I go, well, you freaking can't. I don't mean to be dismissive about it. I'm not putting myself down. I mean, actually that is an impossibility. It goes against, you know, everything we know about physics. And I find that so empowering.
00:55:41
Speaker
it is very empowering yeah it is and it's a great feeling to you know because like most women are literally at war with their bodies yeah and oh my god like how can you live in happily in in us like actually physically in the space in the body
00:56:01
Speaker
that you were born with. That's one of the things actually that was coming up for me again and again, as I was following you and hearing you, you know, as you were genuinely shocked about people not wanting to go into fitting rooms or going into shops and being seen and whatever. And also as well, this, this, you know, women do, all bodies carry the trauma of life and in different ways, but women going into dressing rooms where they have really
00:56:26
Speaker
have either suffered abuse or you know where they've had to leave their bodies. Yeah. Where it wasn't safe to be there and going back to it but you know without support, without you know having that compassion felt too unsafe. When you go into a fitting room and you put on clothes your attention is front and centre on the body and that can be so hard and I don't think we understand that.
00:56:52
Speaker
It can be a really difficult triggering time to go into a fitting room and to have as lovely as you are and as lovely as the women would have been, to have them go, oh, well, look, you know, it looks great at your waist there. It's so triggering. And we don't know, we don't have the language arranged. Yeah. The amount of tears, I used to get my sister, my sister does, does Frankie and I used to get Alva to come down to Vandy Fair every few months and cleanse the place because the amount of tears
00:57:21
Speaker
in our fitting rooms in Vangi Fair, like it was daily, you know, because yeah, honestly, it was daily. And then that energy is left behind and I'll get her to come and clear it and make it a safe space again. But yeah, like it's women have, Jesus, oh my gosh, it's been a constant
00:57:46
Speaker
war for generations. And I totally do believe that you feel things in your DNA, so that it might not even have had to happen to you, but that there's just trauma from being born a woman, that you're not going to be able to escape when it comes to our bodies and how our bodies are seen. And the science that backs that.
00:58:14
Speaker
There is signs of oxide that we do inherit trauma of previous generations, that nothing needs happening in our lives. And we have a holding, a pain, a trauma that is not even ours. And it's hard work, what is worth it, but you can release it. But even just knowing that, again, knowledge is power. And that's part of what you do is you empower the knowledge you have.
00:58:41
Speaker
So, okay, I'm going to ask this question because I ask it to everybody and I think I already know the answer, but do you think it's possible to heal these
Healing Body Image Issues
00:58:48
Speaker
impertinent wounds? Do you think these wounds that have been passed down, that we can embrace our bodies and need a more healthy healing life?
00:58:57
Speaker
Of course we can. Of course we can. But it is, you know, is it easy? No. Is it a journey? Yes. Is it something that you reach the end of that journey? No, it's a constant, you know, you constantly have to catch yourself in your thoughts. Watch, watch different things that come up, you know, in other people's conversations, remove yourself from those situations.
00:59:23
Speaker
It is constant, but is it possible? Absolutely, yes. How do you take care of yourself? How do you stay motivated? What are your self-care practices? I knew everyone asked me something like this. I honestly don't really do a lot to take care of myself because I get such pleasure from my work, like I really do, you know.
00:59:49
Speaker
So my idea of a day off is, I do have the odd day off sometimes, like a walk on a beach is always lovely, but I get huge pleasure from, I've lots of different jobs, let's say, you know, I've lots of different businesses or areas for my work, let's say, and all of them just provide me with such
01:00:14
Speaker
satisfaction that I'm supposed to be a bit of a workaholic. So I don't really do a lot to mind myself. I get a lot of peace and motivation and satisfaction from my customers and from my work. It's fulfilling. Yeah, it is very fulfilling. Yeah. Okay. I won't push you on that. I will come back to you again and try to convince you to do your meditation. Okay.
Future Projects and Social Media Updates
01:00:44
Speaker
OK, so OK, for those wondering where they can find you, where is the best place and is there anything exciting coming up that you do want to share, any projects or anything like that that people can watch out for?
01:00:56
Speaker
Nothing that I want to share yet, but I have gone back to study fashion design for the last two years, and there might be something coming there in the next year, maybe? Give me a year. Give me a year. Give me a year. Where do they find out in the years time? My Instagram page, Nessa Cronin.
01:01:17
Speaker
and on my website nesacronon there you will find my course as well which i do believe will be beneficial to anybody listening to take or i'm also the try on on instagram or the try on shop is my website for my clothes okay i'll add them all in so people can find them
01:01:35
Speaker
And Vanessa, thanks very much. I think people, I think women especially will get a lot out of today. And hopefully, I hope, this is the hope of these conversations is that they will start to see it. They'll start to challenge it. They'll start to hear those comments and go, you know, fickle. Once you become aware of it, it's scary how
01:01:58
Speaker
how it is everywhere. It's everywhere. Like even if you sit in a restaurant and listen to other people's conversations, it's all so body-focused and diet-focused and looking certain ways, not being able to do that. Like it's absolutely everywhere. And it's time to join in the fight to change that because it has to get changed. We can't continue to pass this down, you know? No, no.
01:02:28
Speaker
Hopefully. Hopefully. Okay. Thank you, Nessa. Thank you so much, Coda. Yeah. I'm sure I'll be talking to you again. Great. Okay. All right. Mind yourself. Bye.