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Growing Up Queer
80 Plays2 years ago
In this episode of The Plainly Queer Podcast, we journey back in time to explore what it was like growing up queer in Ireland during the transformative decades of the 90s and 2000s.
Our hosts delve into the heart of their personal experiences, sharing stories that capture the essence of a unique time in queer history. They reminisce about the powerful queer pop culture moments that shaped their identities, and discuss the compelling question: Is coming out really about letting others in?
The discussion then shifts to the progression of societal attitudes, as we reflect on the changes in the past few decades. Has acceptance grown? Is it easier now for young people to express their identities openly?
We also tackle a listener's question about the intricacies of pronouns – a fundamental part of recognising and respecting identity.
Join us for this fun, informative episode that not only presents a time capsule of queer culture in Ireland but also offers insights into the ongoing evolution of queer identity and acceptance. Whether you're part of the LGBTQ+ community or an ally, this episode is a delightful blend of humour, heartfelt stories, and educative discussions. Enjoy!
Online or In-person Therapies: Insight Matters - a fantastic resource providing Queer affirming online and in-person therapeutic support. Visit www.insightmatters.ie for more information.
LGBTQ+ community support in Ireland: https://lgbt.ie/
LGBTQ+ Youth Support in Ireland: https://www.belongto.org/
Transgender Equality Network Ireland: https://teni.ie/
Phone Help Lines:
- Samaritans: 24-hour service – freephone 116 123, www.dublinsamaritans.ie
- Childline: 24-hour service – 1800 66 66 66, www.childline.ie
- Teenline: 8 pm-midnight – 1800 833 634, www.teenline.ie
- Aware (Depression): 1890 303 302, www.aware.ie
- Pieta House (Self-Harm/Suicide Support): 01-6010000, www.pieta.ie
- Bodywhys (Eating Disorders): 1890 200 444, www.bodywhys.ie
- Console (Suicide Bereavement Support): 1800 247 247, www.console.ie
- Grow (Mental Health Support Groups): 1890 474 474, www.grow.ie
- Alcoholics Anonymous: www.alcoholicsanonymous.ie
- Drugs/HIV Helpline: 1800 459 459 www.hse.ie/drugshivhelpline
- Rape Crisis Network Ireland: 24-hour helpline 1800 77 88 88 www.rapecrisishelp.ie
Crisis Text Line: Text HELLO to 50808 to connect with a crisis counsellor who can provide support and help connect you to further resources.
Remember, you're not alone, and there are resources and people who want to help. So please reach out if you're in need.
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Transcript
Introduction to Queer Culture and Identity
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi everyone, once again you're very welcome to the Plainly Queer podcast. In this episode we are going to be discussing growing up queer in Ireland or growing up queer anywhere in the world. We're going to be discussing queer pop culture in the 90s and noughties and its positive and negative influences. Do you know I really hate the noughties? I cannot stand that term. I don't know why. You don't like the noughties? No! Why do we have to call it the noughties?
00:00:29
Speaker
Well, I was very naughty in the noughties, so I think it's very apt that it's called naughty. Maybe that's why I don't like it, because I wasn't as naughty enough. It's like the Summer of Love or whatever that was in the 1960s. That's what the noughties were. That's what it was for you. Yeah. A little bit naughty. I missed it. They're still tied, Rhoda. Thanks, thanks. I've come back to it so.
Is Life Better Now for Young Queer People?
00:00:51
Speaker
And yes, we talk about coming out in Ireland, or as we like to call it now, letting in.
00:00:55
Speaker
There's no more coming out in Ireland. It's letting people into our lives. We also go on to see how society has progressed and more recently maybe started to regress over the queer generations. We asked the question, is it better now for young people? And we're not sure so you can decide. Let us know what you think. Because we have no perspective of young people.
00:01:20
Speaker
We're not young. Because we're old. Yeah, we're old. We're of a different generation, but we discuss it anyway. Yeah, exactly. Before the episode as well, we had a request from a listening from our first episode, which was around language and the evolutionary language and in particular pronouns. So we got a question from Angie and Frankie. So we want to thank them for their follow up and they're listening to the podcast and taking the time.
00:01:50
Speaker
And they would just like some more clarification on pronouns.
Understanding Pronouns and Gender Identity
00:01:54
Speaker
And as we know, pronouns is kind of such a thing that's out there at the moment. A lot of people are maybe afraid to kind of interact or engage in conversation around it because they're not familiar with it or they're kind of, there's a fear surrounding it. So I suppose just to break shit down, what the fuck is a pronoun?
00:02:12
Speaker
So the book is a pronoun. What the fuck is a pronoun? I don't know why all that profanity just leaked in there, but it did. Well, listen, it's where we're at. Keep going. Do you know why I think it's because of the anger I think I'm holding onto at the moment during the whole rhetoric and the whole anti-trans and non-binary rhetoric at the moment. I think that's where it's coming from. It's hard at the moment yet. Yeah, and I think unconsciously.
00:02:37
Speaker
A pronoun is a word that refers to either the people talking, like I or you, or someone or something that is being talked about, like she is them and this. Now, gender pronouns, like he and hers and theirs, specifically refer to people you are talking about. So, gender pronouns, the whole concept of gender pronouns,
00:03:04
Speaker
they specifically refer to people you are talking about. So, what are some commonly used pronouns, gender pronouns? Obviously, there's she, her, hers, he, him, his, and then, like, of course, female or feminine pronouns would be she, her, she, her. I identify as she, her. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's more masculine ones, the masculine pronouns, which are obviously he, him and his.
00:03:34
Speaker
But many avoid these labels because, for example, not everyone who uses he feels like a male or masculine, like with myself. Like sometimes I don't really identify with what it is to be masculine nowadays, especially toxic masculinity. Yeah. I hate that whole toxic masculinity thing. But... For your pronouns, then. He they. So it basically means if you have someone that's she they or he they, or for myself, this is my take on it,
00:04:03
Speaker
for me, I don't mind being referred to as either. They're like, you know, I'm OK being referred to as he and I'm OK being referred to as they if you are talking about me. OK, and that's the whole way to look at this. It's how someone is talking about you and I am OK with he or they. And the reason why is like that, what it is to be a man, sometimes I don't relate to it. I don't relate to what it is, that masculine kind of stuff, that toxic masculinity. So
00:04:33
Speaker
That's where it came in for me, but I don't communicate it very well. But anyway, there it is. I thought it was lovely communicating. I totally understand that, but then maybe I will be in a queer. Thanks for the validation. Of course, there are lots of gender neutral pronouns in use and the main ones then, they, them, theirs. So they would be the main kind of gender neutral pronouns. They, them, theirs. And they are not just singular. No, they can be used as singular. They're not just plural.
00:05:02
Speaker
This is what I get for going by a script. I'll mix my words up. But yeah, so not just plural is also can be used in the singular. And it does take time. Like it can be done very naturally, but it just takes time. It's retraining the brain, retraining the brain. And never ever refer to a person as it or he, she, because, you know, these are offensive slurs against trans gender, queer, non-binary and gender fluid, fluid individuals.
00:05:32
Speaker
Slurring my words a lot this evening. I haven't even had a drink. No! I wish! You know, we could forgive you for that.
00:05:43
Speaker
No, that is that I think that's a really good explanation. And yes, like you said, it is hard to get used to because we, you know, we just use he, she, they, you know, we don't use they, unless we're talking about, you know, a group of people. Yeah, or it's more than one person. Yeah. And we're people out like that.
00:06:04
Speaker
Yeah, but we do use it and it's just when it's this specific and I think a lot of people get caught going, I don't want to offend, I don't want to say the wrong thing and get too much in their head. If you are referring to somebody and they are they them and you go he and in a conversation just going, oh, sorry, they and let's move on. You know, we know that it's going to happen. Listen, people, language is a social construct.
00:06:30
Speaker
It's just words, you know. It's how you use the words and it's been mindful to try and be respectful and validating of others with the words you use. So that's the whole point of this. So yeah, that's that. And this is the episode about growing up queer in Ireland. Ireland. Or growing up queer wherever you grew up. So hopefully you relate, hopefully you like it and like that. Any comments?
00:06:59
Speaker
questions, anything you'd like us to cover in future episodes, do link in with us on Instagram. We are plainly underscore queer. And yeah, we have our podcast on all the main platforms. Jazz hands. Enjoy, folks. So yeah, you were just saying there, so a significant event was the Michael Barrymore. Yes. Should we give context to this whole thing?
00:07:26
Speaker
Yeah. That probably would help.
Growing Up Queer in Ireland
00:07:29
Speaker
That would help people to know that we are talking about right now, growing up queer in Ireland. And we started having a pre-conversation before we pressed record. And that was, you know, what were the significant events and pop culture, but also historical events in Ireland. And before we knew that we were having the conversation, I said, I think we better press record. So here we are pressing record and you were about to talk about
00:07:55
Speaker
I was about to talk about, I should probably frame it. I was talking about kind of as a child, you know, what kind of stood out for me in relation to in the media and how, because I, I didn't get any sex education. I got a little bit in biology class, but I went to, I went to a kind of school that was an all boys school that was run by priests. So our sex education was very limited and heteronormative and closed off, but
00:08:25
Speaker
Everything I learned, I had to learn through a negative context, as in it was being talked about negatively by my peers. And then I'd go and explore it myself. But I suppose when it started to come into kind of pop culture or, you know, media, TV shows, one thing for me I remember mentioning was like Dawson's Creek was one of the first ones. They had a gay character, Jack. And then, of course, Will and Grace. And, you know,
00:08:54
Speaker
just started to creep in slowly. And then the big one, of course, was Queer as Folk UK.
00:09:01
Speaker
And they all came out around the same time, funnily enough, 1998, 1999. I think that's hilarious. I can't believe they all came out at the same time. It feels like they were so separate in what they were showing, if you want to say, and very much within their own genre. But to have it come out at the same year was huge when you think about it. It's like a watershed moment.
00:09:27
Speaker
There must have been something, there was obviously something building and I suppose we're to bring it back to Ireland in the fact that only in 1993 was it actually decriminalised homosexuality.
The Impact of Media on Queer Identity
00:09:38
Speaker
I know it was kind of socially accepted in kind of certain kind of metropolitan centres, I would guess are safe zones. But yeah, I think the thing that I was leading into in relation to the pop culture thing, my youngest memory of it was the
00:09:56
Speaker
Michael Barrymore and I know he had been married and I believe he had children and there was stuff in the tabloids about him going to a gay bar in London. And then I believe a couple of months later at the Brit, was it the Brit Awards or the national television awards or something like that over in the UK. We were watching it in our kitchen and my mother was there and I was only about 13 I think, 13 or 14.
00:10:26
Speaker
And he was making this impassioned speech. And I remember my mother was crying and, but the subject matter was making me really uncomfortable. I can't remember exactly what he was saying, but I knew what he was doing. He was like, he was coming out and he was like, I am gay on national television. I remember my mother got emotional and I brushed it off and I tried to play it down.
00:10:51
Speaker
And I was like, what's all that shit about? And then she scorned me. She actually said, like, have some respect or don't be like that. And I suppose looking back, that would have been the ideal opportunity to nurture the fact that I was different and say, Hey, I'm different too. But of course, it's a gradual thing for everyone to get their own form of self acceptance to be able to do the coming out eventually. But just little moments like that, I remember.
00:11:17
Speaker
You know? Yeah. Did you know at that age, did you know when you were watching the speech that that is, you know, I recognize that. I knew I was different, but all these, especially with Michael Barrymore, it's associated with, with the negative things because he cheated, like he was kind of, he married and he had kids. So it was seen that it was wrong what he had done, how dare he, all this sort of stuff. So it was always kind of framed in a negative way. And I suppose there was no,
00:11:47
Speaker
There was no real positive role models, if you will.
00:11:51
Speaker
as in, like, that had a positive outlook or had that, like, the possibility of a happy ending, maybe, I don't know. Yeah, it was never portrayed as, you know, the family or, you know, getting married or having kids or a more successful career, you know, and I think I have the stat here as well that even in Ireland, it is only in 1998 that the Employment Equality Act was introduced and that was based on prohibiting discrimination on sexual orientation in the workplace.
00:12:20
Speaker
That's only two minutes ago. So I don't even remember when I came out, the sadness was, oh, you're not going to get married. You're not going to have kids. You know, we're never going to see you have a wedding. Like there was a genuine grief. And I was like, that's what, that was genuinely what was thought. You know, you'll have a harder life. It won't be as easy for, you know, being straight is way easier. And you can totally understand, I suppose, you know,
00:12:50
Speaker
say parents or caregivers, thinking around that, as in it is never easy to be different. You know, it's life is more difficult when you are different from the majority. When you are a minority, being a minority, it's difficult. And, you know, I suppose I remember when I was a young girl, you asked me the question earlier, you know, when did you have a sense at that time when I was 13?
00:13:20
Speaker
I had a sense that I was different. I was very, I was very sensitive and I was, you know, very much internal in my head. Of course, you're trying to keep it all inside. You're trying to like keep that mask up and, you know, save face. But I remember doing stupid things like rolling a dice and saying, okay, if the dice lands on a certain number, I like boys. And if the dice lands on another number, I like girls.
00:13:47
Speaker
Now, this would have been very kind of early teens, you know, just kind of grappling with hormones and what was going on and trying to understand it. Did you ever feel like you wanted to not like boys? Oh, yeah, because it was it was just so negative, you know, as in if I don't like boys, they won't call me queer or they won't call me a faggot or they want to do this, you know. So I just have to prove them wrong. I remember having a girlfriend for a little bit, a little girlfriend.
00:14:16
Speaker
And I'd go to her house a couple of times and her older brother would be there. And I'd just fancy her brother. I would just kind of want to spend more time with her brother, but being there as her boyfriend. But that didn't last too long, but it was very superficial. Nothing happened. I think there was the old peck on the cheek and we were 15 or 16. But it was, yeah, it was very much, oh, I was all over the place.
00:14:45
Speaker
I went to the church one Sunday, a real time of crisis, and I literally sat in the church for three hours while masses were going on in the main kind of concourse, should we say. I was over in the side vestibule. I just prayed for three hours, just prayed and just looking for some sort of guidance or epiphany, just trying to figure stuff out. And, you know, I look back on that and I'm like, my God, like,
00:15:14
Speaker
that must affect someone's mind so much as a child to affect the isolation. Exactly, that sense of isolation.
00:15:24
Speaker
The sense of isolation in that, the world around you saying this thing that you feel is a negative, it's a bad, it's a, you're a bad person or, you know, all of these things that are going to be thrown at you if I do stand up and say, I am gay. Now, it's not as bad for me as a gay woman, but it's worse for a gay man.
00:15:46
Speaker
You know, we're kind of, you know, oh, really, you know, especially in a male side that like the amount of times I've had, not good friends now, but like males in my life go, oh, that's just the challenge. You know, I'll turn you, you know, it was, it was something to be entertained. Whereas for, I think, you know, especially boys, it's like, yeah, you become the target.
00:16:09
Speaker
The isolation with that, again, the felt sense of there's something bad within me, not having that somebody to talk to, nobody talking about it. Horrible. As you were talking there, just kind of speaking to that how it'd be different for a girl as opposed to a boy, was there a sense for yourself that, oh, it wasn't taken seriously? Like, you know, as in like,
00:16:36
Speaker
because you're a woman? Do you think if you were a gay man, you would be taken more seriously? But you know what I mean? It's easier for a woman kind of thing. I don't know whether it was consciously. I remember one of my good friends, the mom saying, oh, it's just a phase. And she may still believe that today. It says it'll be grand. They'll get over it.
00:17:04
Speaker
In terms of not being taken seriously, if I said it advances from men or whatever, if I said no, that wasn't taken seriously. If I said I'm actually gay, just I'm not interested, that was almost like pouring fuel on the fire. That was definitely a boundary they were never going to respect. And if I said I had a boyfriend and there he was, then it was like, oh, yeah, that's Grant. So in that sense, it was never taken serious.
00:17:34
Speaker
And now, even still now, if I'm, you know, not that I would ever be in a situation that somebody would do that and be a sleazy because I'm never in nightclubs or something like that for that to happen. But there are still times where it's like you can see the glint happen of going, oh, you know, it's like this porno view of lesbians. And I'm far from anyone that is not looking at the video of this. I'm far from a porno star.
00:18:05
Speaker
But you can see it being viewed through that lens. You know, it's not as you say, it's not really taken serious. It's not as the consequences are different for. I think that's very interesting, isn't it? Is it that maybe I just think it's really interesting that two women is non-threatening, but two men is threatening. Oh, yeah.
00:18:32
Speaker
And that's really, and that's been kind of a narrative all the way through over the centuries. It's been to the idea of two women together is, you know, that's fine as a straight man can sexualize that straight man can get on board with that. But then two men together is highly threatening and, you know, highly sexual and overtly sexual. Yeah, it's it's crazy.
Challenges Faced by Trans Women and Societal Acceptance
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah, no, and it's still there to this day. And I think, I mean, we're only talking from our perspective. I don't identify as non-binary or anything like that. In the queer sense of it, I do open up my queerness in that sense. It's more broad than just being a lesbian. But I think to go further than that is that the trans woman is the most targeted.
00:19:28
Speaker
You know, because that really goes, and it's like, again, that heteronormative, that paternalistic male, you know, this is not okay by us and something threatening the maleness. And it's, I wonder when we'll get over that. I wonder when we'll get over that because we've come so far, we understand so much about the toxic masculinity and what that causes. And I do wonder how long it'll take or what'll have to happen.
00:19:57
Speaker
It's one thing I've seen myself over the years that really I don't, I don't like, and that's the toxic masculinity. And, you know, I would see it a lot in like some kind of work environments that I do be in every now and then. And just highly kind of male dominated and just that sense of, you know,
00:20:24
Speaker
just lads and this ladish talk and all this sort of stuff and playing down stuff like transgendered rights or you know or kind of I had my pronouns on a work email I sent and I got a reply back on what are you doing and I was kind of like you know just putting my pronouns out there but even now it's yeah it's how far like that
00:20:50
Speaker
Do we, I think we've still a long way to go. I think I mentioned this in our last little chat. I think I'll be long gone by the time it becomes this, you know, a place where it's just not a thing. I think too much has to happen. Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:07
Speaker
I, gosh, I hope it happens sooner than that for those coming up because, you know, that's what we were talking about, you know, growing up in the 80s and 90s coming to terms with, you know, I had that back and forth, you know, am I? Maybe I'm not. Am I? Maybe I'm not. And, you know, now obviously looking back, there were so many things, you know, and I was talking to somebody recently, he knew me when I was a kid and they were like, oh, we knew, like we knew. I hate that though, when someone says we knew, it's like, could you not have said it to me?
00:21:37
Speaker
Could you not have studied the dialogue, a conversation? Like, my mother was like, oh yeah, we knew. And I was like, could you not have, like, talked to me about it? What did you want to do with that information? Were you just going to sit in it and hope I found out or would be okay with it? Yeah. But I remember, like, I'd be watching movies with my, with my friends, my girlfriends at that time. And, you know, whatever Brad Pitt would be in it or whatever Leo DiCaprio and all this sort of stuff. And.
00:22:06
Speaker
they'd be all, oh, like, amazing and, you know, so hot and blah, blah, blah, and I'd be looking and going, what?
00:22:14
Speaker
You know, you have Kate Winslet on the screen or you have Julia Roberts or, you know, and I always was looking at them going, how are you not seeing this? Or how am I not seeing it? What am I, what am I looking at? You know, what am I missing? And it was like, when I look back on it now, it was so obvious, like, but at the time I was like, what's going on here? What's happening?
00:22:38
Speaker
And then as I got later into my teens and I started going out, like my friends would have been, you know, having the kisses on the night out and, you know, talking about boys and, you know, starting to date. And I was like, right, I suppose I may do that as well. You know, this is what everybody else is doing. So that's what I'm supposed to be doing. You try and buy into that kind of whole thing. Well, I suppose it's a form of survival as well back then. You know, it was a form of get through
00:23:06
Speaker
secondary school and just get through this thing and you do that by trying to assimilate as best you can and that involves like you know ticking the boxes doing I remember being at a school dance and like that it was set up that I would go down to the back of the hall with this girl and we'd kind of have a little kiss and then you come back up holding hands acting like the big man
00:23:32
Speaker
Yeah, oh yeah, you know, I'm a man now. I'm a bit extreme man, but God love her. She was actually wearing this all in one black track suit, so I'm pretty sure she's probably part of our queer community now as well.
00:23:47
Speaker
We both had the same motivations that night, just take the attention off us. Let's get this done. I think it was more aggressive than I was. Do you know that speaks to that part of there was what was being offered to us, but that was what was seen all the time. We did not see any other representation other than straight people, other than obviously my peers. There was no representation for me.
00:24:14
Speaker
that I could go, oh, that actually makes more sense. I think that's what's happening. I knew there were queer things on TV. I did watch Queer as Folk and it started becoming more and more obvious there. But again, and even just
00:24:32
Speaker
looking at the female leads, whatever they were, it was kind of obvious. But it wasn't until like I was in college that like, I, you know, you know, but you don't really know. And I had said it to a friend and I wanted to go back into the closet. Like I remember saying, you know, I'm actually not okay with this. I don't want this life because of the negativity, because of the potential backlash that could have come from it. Now I was lucky.
00:25:02
Speaker
But that's what coming out was like. And when I say that the penny finally dropped, I was in a nightclub in Derry with my college mates. And one of them who was out, they were going to a nightclub. Do you want to come? And I said, yeah, that could absolutely like. Had a great night, dancing, good laugh and whatever.
00:25:24
Speaker
And we met people there and we were dancing and all this sort of stuff. So I was dancing with somebody, I was dancing with a woman there. And I wasn't thinking anything of it. I was just having a great time. And we had to get back on the bus to go back to that, OK? So we were leaving, see, bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop. And I was just about to get on the bus and this person followed me out and grabbed me and goes, you don't think you're getting away with just leaving like that, do you? And I was like, what? What do you mean? And they kissed me.
00:25:52
Speaker
And that was the first, you know, as in that was the first full on. And I was like, Oh my God, that's it. That's what everybody's talking about. That's what my mates have been doing this whole time that I thought I was doing. That's not. And finally I was like, I'm never going back. I am never going back.
00:26:14
Speaker
And so that was, that was kind of like the moment for me. I was like, Oh no, I know what this is about now. That sounds like a nice memory. Like that's a nice first kind of encounter. Mine was not so nice, I think. Well, not that it wasn't so nice, but back in the day, there was no Grindr, there was no Tinder, there was no any of this. I think it was like, you know, the Aircom kind of internet when it came in, it was dial-up. So you had to wait for it to dial, the 10 seconds that it would come up.
00:26:44
Speaker
And it would take like 10 minutes to load a really badly pixelated picture.
Personal Queer Experiences and Representation
00:26:49
Speaker
But I remember I got talking to a guy from most common on a website and we arranged to meet. I think I was like, I was pretty late though. I think I was like 20, 21. And I got two buses to see him like two and a half hours, I think each way. And just this.
00:27:10
Speaker
I remember Ricky Lake was on in the background. So he was living in this apartment and working up there in Ross Common somewhere. I just remember Ricky Lake in the background and he wasn't what I was expecting. And I think I was just too nice and going through the motions of it. And, you know, it got very, like, it got very full on very fast.
00:27:38
Speaker
And when you have no sex education, all you have to go on is queerest folk that you'd watched. Like, you know, when your parents had gone to bed and no one else was around and you were sneaking down to watch it. Or, I don't know, did you ever watch Eurotrash on Channel 4?
00:27:55
Speaker
Oh gosh. Yeah. So this is how you'd learn all these little things. But yeah, it was, it was, listen, it was an experience. It probably wasn't the best experience, but I quickly enough got back on my bus back home. Yeah. But again, this, like, you know, what we're talking about is things could be made so easier by having these conversations, by having the representation by like,
00:28:25
Speaker
You know, even still there are connotations and associations with being gay. You never know, even as progressive as we are in Ireland, but like, we never know what's going to happen if we are in a conversation and the topic comes up and we decide to disclose it. Not a disclosing, but any, like as in, I don't mean it as, I don't see it as a bad thing, but there's always this thing going, what is going to be met with this?
00:28:52
Speaker
And having a young person not being able to ask and the only access they have, they have more TV shows now, they have more positive representations, you know, there's the success stories now, there's just being gay and that's it, it's not a whole thing. I think the key that you're touching on there is information. I think there's more information available to younger people, which is great. And it's not kind of this polluted mainstream kind of agenda, it's actual information, it's actual
00:29:22
Speaker
experiences, it's, you know, it's kind of practical stuff and there's discussions and there's dialogues, like positive dialogue and open discussion that you can engage in. So if you do have those feelings, you don't have to roll a dice or you don't have to like go to a church and pray for three hours. Like you can actually, you know, engage with something that will kind of inform you, enable you to talk it out.
00:29:50
Speaker
even now you can kind of, you know, engage in experiences. I suppose there'd be other people in school maybe who feel like I, I remember there was a guy I was quite close to in school, but we're just friends. And we went all the way through school and into adulthood. And I met him in a gay bar once. And I was like,
00:30:10
Speaker
Oh, okay. And then he was like, Oh, okay. And I was like, Oh, wait, like, you know, that would have been great to know, but we were both just hiding ourselves away, you know, that kind of way. And yeah, I always think it's really funny. I went to an all boys school and got like zero action. Zero. If I could go back in time, like the possibilities would be endless. I'd probably make better use of the time, but yeah, no, that was funny.
00:30:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. There's access to so much now. And I think as well, there's even the talk around consent, you know, talking about boundaries in terms of, you know, it's okay if you're not comfortable in this situation to say no. Like when you were younger, you didn't, well, sorry, that's me from myself. I wasn't sure. Is this how it should be doing? Should I be feeling this way? Should I be feeling another way?
00:31:06
Speaker
And now the conversation is about your feeling what you're feeling. And that is absolutely fine. If you want to pause, if you want to, you know, stop, but have the continual conversation, especially around sex or anything like that. It's an ongoing piece now for the younger folks coming up. It's not just what's on Pornhub. Yeah. And it's not, I think it's what you're talking to there, you're speaking to in my mind, what's coming up for me. It's not about kind of sex or it's not about, you know, exploring
00:31:34
Speaker
that aspect of sexuality, it's about expression. I think it's the finding out how to express yourself or being okay to express yourself. Sexuality will come into that, but when you're old enough or you feel comfortable enough or you're ready to, you know, that kind of way, it all comes into consent. But I think definitely it's about expression and the freedom to express
00:32:00
Speaker
who you are becoming, instead of having it that may have happened decades ago, being stunted, or being hidden, or having to, having to build this, you know, persona upon persona upon persona, and like, it all gets hidden into the shadow, because you just can't figure it out in public, because there's nowhere, or just no one to help you figure it out. How do you figure it out? Only in relation
00:32:28
Speaker
you know, only in relation with another, you know, on all levels of that. Yeah. Oh, I have a question then. What was your, was there, was there a nineties crush that you had or an early noughties crush in the media? Oh gosh, there was loads. I'm trying to think now, who was it? Gosh, some of the, like probably Julia Roberts.
00:32:55
Speaker
Okay. I, you mentioned Kate Winslet before and even I, I think Kate Winslet. Yeah. She's just so natural and there's just something so, I don't know, approachable and open about her. She's lovely. And she's only gotten better with age. Jesus. Yeah. You know, actually, yeah. Was there anybody else? I'm sure there was, and I can't think of a desperate memory. So, uh, that's one. Oh, Michelle Pfeiffer was another. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:23
Speaker
I can't say it, but then again, I'm not really into it. What about your crushes? Oh, it's so funny looking back. I mean, I remember being in my friend's house when I was younger, maybe like that 13, 14, and Peter Andre and that music video, mysterious girl, where he's dancing below the waterfall.
00:33:49
Speaker
And I'd just be sitting there going like, I think I might be gay. I just remember that video stood out for me. And then there was Smash Hits magazine. I'd always like the boy bands and stuff like that. Yeah. So I'd say those kind of 90s pop stars, like Peter Andre stands out because he had that music video where he was totally plastic and unachievable. And, you know, you'd look at him now and go,
00:34:19
Speaker
But yeah, no. Yeah. I think at the time it was of its time at the time it was a guy who would just top off. I was kind of open to it. Yeah. There was nobody like Peter Andre at the time. No, I remember I was discussing this with a friend the other day cause I was talking about the topic that was going to be coming up. And it is great to reminisce though, as in, you know, kind of you talk about all this, but I remember of course there was no pornography back then.
00:34:47
Speaker
And I think when probably maybe 11, 12, that that eight time is difficult for me back then. Like I'll know experiences, but it's hard with time. But I think it was, it was quite young. And do you remember the family album? And it was like, it was like a catalog. So you get like this catalog and they'd be like full of clothes and all this. So it would have majority women's clothes and it would have some men's clothes as well.
00:35:16
Speaker
but my mother would always used to get this delivered. The family album would come every month and you'd order clothes if you wanted to, like Oxingdales or something like that. But I remember just always like going through the family album and going to the page that had the men in the underwear. That would be, but it's crazy how, you know, you find a way, you find a way to explore what's going on in your mind, to experiment with that and to kind of fantasize and everything like that.
00:35:45
Speaker
So yeah, that was just something that came up for me. When you're just looking for, I don't know, looking for stimulation, I guess. Yeah, but it's also looking for that recognition, you know? When you see it, you know it, you know? And it's kind of like, you know, as a kid, it's kind of going, hold on, what is that? And then you go back again and it's like, oh, there's that thing again. And again, that keeps coming up and it's like, okay, well, that actually feels like
00:36:15
Speaker
you know, if I go back to that night in Derry, I was like, I finally came home.
00:36:22
Speaker
You know, that was just, that was, everything made sense then. And it was like, well, this is who I am. This is not, it's not all of who I am, but this is a huge jigsaw piece that has been missing. So anytime you can get that recognition, it goes, Oh yeah, there's a vote. Oh yeah. I know what this is. And soon you begin to, you know, as you grow older, you kind of finally get to that place where it's like, Oh, I fricking know what this is now. You know?
00:36:49
Speaker
I think I don't want to speak generally, I'll speak for myself. As I kind of went into my early 20s and exploded out of the closet, I was kind of making up for last time. I put myself out there and I got out there, boyfriends and relationships and done the whole scene thing. But I've never felt, I don't know,
00:37:18
Speaker
Being kind of gay and queer, it's just who I am now.
Integrating Queer Identity in Self-Perception
00:37:23
Speaker
It's not like it's an aspect of me or it's just, I don't know, it's part of me. It's hard to explain, but I'm not conscious of it. It's just who I am. I'm not... Yeah, I would always, if I'm in a relationship or... Who's conscious of heterosexuality?
00:37:44
Speaker
Who is conscious of their heterosexuality? We're not conscious of our homosexuality. Do you know what I mean? It's only in the not knowing what this is part that we have to really, you know, be conscious and go, oh, there's that thing again. I suppose it's not hiding. Why would we be? Yeah, not having to kind of hide yourself away anymore.
00:38:05
Speaker
And then you realize that there's so many other issues going on that you have to deal with. Being gay or queer is the least of them. Yeah, actually that was one of my things as well. I was like, oh, like when I, when I finally was figuring out, I was like, Oh God, I'm going to have to come out now, you know, properly come out. And I remember saying to myself, I don't need to do this right now. I have more stuff going on. That is the least of my worries. And yeah, so I was, I was, I was later coming out, but
00:38:33
Speaker
Yeah, Jesus, like, it's such a small part when you think about it. Like, well, I'll talk about my experience. It was a really small part when I was, you know, what else was going on in my life. It was made a bigger thing because of my, again, what's the reaction going to be? How are people going to feel? You know, all of that. And it's daunting. But now, now that I have the benefit of hindsight, I was like, that was the least of your problems. But I suppose like that, it's you hold on to it for so long.
00:39:03
Speaker
that when, because it is like, you say it and you can never take it back. So I suppose my experience would have been, I was very, this is just who I am for myself. Anyway, I always protect myself. I always make sure that whatever the outcome of a situation is, I can't get hurt. So before I came out to my family, well, my parents mainly, I had told my sister,
00:39:33
Speaker
But it's always good to start with a sibling and then go from there. But I remember before I told my parents, I wanted to be set up. I wanted to kind of be independent. I wanted to kind of have a place of my own. And just the fear of the rejection, you know, just to be kind of, okay, I'm going to set myself up here just in case the rejection comes. And luckily it didn't come. And, you know, I suppose there was little
00:40:00
Speaker
hints along the way, like the Michael Barrymore thing I was talking about and kind of my mother showing empathy in relation to that and understanding. And I'd love to think that that fear of rejection isn't there anymore. But like you said, how far have we progressed? And hopefully we have progressed to a place where
00:40:24
Speaker
You know, it doesn't have to be that big of a deal anymore. It's not the fear. There is no fear of rejection or anything like that.
00:40:32
Speaker
or being kicked out or, but maybe that is, I know, not maybe, I know that's still a reality for some individuals, unfortunately. It's like that, you know, it's again, like with us growing up in that, in our environments, you know, we were being told either consciously, you know, by the words that were being used in the previous podcast, we talked about, you know, queer versus faggot, one being reclaimed and the other not, and the connotations of what was being said when those words were being used.
00:41:02
Speaker
You know, there are still kids that are growing up, you know, Oh, don't be like that puff. Oh, they're a faggot or, you know, gay being said as a, as a negative, you know, Oh, that's so gay. So, you know, if there's kids listening to that, they see you put that in that context and they go, but I'm in that context. Is that what you're thinking about me? What will happen when I say, you know, this is who I am.
00:41:30
Speaker
So it is still there because the language we use, especially nowadays, it's even getting, you know, turned up again.
00:41:39
Speaker
I don't know. I think it is better, but it is not salt. It is not 100%, but even the fact that we are having this conversation, even the fact that we even think we can record a podcast and put our names on it and be like, we're grand. We're okay. We'll be safe. I'm not putting my name on this.
00:42:00
Speaker
I want to remain anonymous. His name is Paulus, his name is Paulus. All these like, yeah, all these word bombers reflections of the past. No, but we totally have the freedom to do it. And it is, it is amazing. And I think I'm at this, even to kind of think of someone listening to this, or what their kind of perceptions are about it. I think I'm just kind of, I'm kind of like,
00:42:28
Speaker
Whatever, let's all have conversations about this. Let's talk about this. Let's be open to this because that's the only way it's going to get normalized. I'm doing rabbit ears there for anyone that can't do that. What is that word? Nothing is normal. We just need to talk about it. It needs to become part of the narrative, the everyday. It is what it is.
00:42:55
Speaker
And, you know, and it's little things, I think. I think it's even the way I remember, and I'm sure they won't mind me sharing this. There was a video sent to me of, let's mix it up and say a friend of mine. And they had their three-year-old there and they were sending a little video clip of themselves and three-year-olds to a group chat. And it was kind of like, oh, so-and-so has got his hair cut and I'm going to get his haircut for his girlfriend. And, you know, you want to have a nice girlfriend when you're older.
00:43:24
Speaker
And then I'm kind of like, eh, that's kind of putting it in his head that he should have a girlfriend. Like, well, I got the other boyfriend, but just this is where my mind is at now. It's kind of like we're still conditioning children to go a certain path when just keep it open, keep the options open. But it is, it's just, it's like we talked about last week, it's conditioning and it's just being aware of what we're saying to these impressionable young minds.
00:43:51
Speaker
Yeah. And it needs to become so a part of the conversation that it's not even, you know, relevant in terms of it's just there. It's just how we talk. It's not something that needs to be pulled up. Like even at the start of this conversation, I was saying he and she, he and she, and I was like, well, actually, you know, that's not even relevant. And I don't mean it as in, you know, if that's how you identify. Absolutely. But
00:44:17
Speaker
It's excluding a whole bunch of people. I was talking about yours and mine experiences here.
00:44:26
Speaker
The fact that this is getting to the point where I'm thinking about it going soon, this won't be a part of my conversation. Soon this won't be part of my thought. It'll just be naturally in my speech. It'll be naturally in how it is. I can't wait for that day. I cannot wait for that day where it's just a non-thing. It just is what it is. The same way
00:44:51
Speaker
heterosexuality is just there. There is no thinking about it. It is just what exists. Little do they know it exists on a spectrum of sexuality. Yeah. Exactly. There's another podcast. You have the spectrum of sexuality? God, no. Yeah. Speak to what I know. I love to do lots of research on that. No, of course. Yeah. Yeah. The spectrum of sexuality. I think I'm quite
00:45:17
Speaker
I think, you know, we're talking here and we're of a certain age that we won't disclose, but obviously we are from a similar generation who grew up in kind of similar situations. And there are generations that have come after us who obviously will have a different perspective and may have a more positive experience or may reinforce that, listen, it's still a little bit difficult, but it's a little bit better. But I suppose, yeah, I don't know where I was going with that. Could you sense where I was going with that?
00:45:48
Speaker
Not really, but I'll tell you what was coming up on my mind as you were talking. Go for it. And that was, you know, at the moment I'm learning so much from the kids that are coming up after us. You know, they are really, you know, streets ahead of where I was. Their understanding, their access even to the information is allowing them explode into exactly all of the spaces of who they are.
00:46:10
Speaker
being able to experiment. Not everybody, I know it's not perfect, but there's a lot more conversations around this is what I'm feeling and I'm wondering. There's not more language around, ah, this is what's going on for me at the moment, you know, with all of the, just the availability of the labels, even though I'm not a fan of labels, but sometimes it's good to know this is what's happening for me. This is why I'm feeling this way.
00:46:34
Speaker
Being able to explore, being able to experiment in different ways and then go, well, actually, I feel different now in a year's time and then being able to change is not as static anymore. It has to be, it's not one way or the other. It can be, again, the spectrum of this experience. It's kind of all up for grabs now at the moment. I think that's great. As you hear what you're saying, but even as you're saying,
00:46:59
Speaker
It sounds like a perfect world. And the word that just came up as you were kind of talking, I was like, that's lovely. But I just think it's still so restrictive. And I'm probably speaking from my own experience in relation to, OK, I'm gay. That's the path I took. And that's why queer speaks a bit more to me. There's a lot more possibility in that. But even, yeah, it's
00:47:27
Speaker
We all like the roles we play and the masks we wear and all that sorts of stuff. But I do appreciate what you're saying in relation to hopefully younger people have a less restrictive kind of environment to embrace themselves and their authentic selves at that. Let's put that out there.
00:47:48
Speaker
comment yeah if you're under the age of 35 comment in how is it for you guys yeah how was it what's it what's it like there folks yeah but the guest speaker are they probably just you two are ridiculous you two need therapy
00:48:05
Speaker
We are ridiculous. We're embracing our ridiculousness. Exactly. This is the point of having these conversations of going, oh, okay, didn't know that was there. Podcasts are basically forms of therapy for people anyway, so you might as well just embrace it. Yeah. As two therapists, we recommend it. Most definitely. Let's all go to therapy. Actually, I suppose, stemming from that, growing up queer in Ireland, do you think that
00:48:36
Speaker
has that path to being a therapist and the work you do now, do you think it kind of pushed you more in that direction? Like, do you think, yeah. Not like that wasn't, it is part of it. It's not the whole picture of it. It's definitely why I work in this area with the queer folks, but it's not the reason I became a therapist.
00:49:04
Speaker
It's part of the reason, you know, as a young person who was struggling and not knowing what was going on, not having anybody to talk to. I probably did have people to talk to, but they didn't understand it. So the fact that now I can have conversations and offer that space for it to be a conversation, for it to be
00:49:26
Speaker
you know, understood and held and with empathy and compassion and genuine love, you know, because I think that is why I work in this area. You know, it's not all about that, but it's definitely part of the picture of why I am continuing and will continue to train in this area, as in for queer folks. Yeah. What about you? I think I came into this line of, you know,
00:49:55
Speaker
I call it a calling because it really is.
Motivation for Becoming Therapists and Addressing Mental Health
00:49:59
Speaker
It's a vocation more than anything else. And for me, it's a sense of purpose. It's a real sense of purpose. And it can be so difficult at times. And my God, you really do. You have to look inwards, especially during the training, which I'm kind of at the end of now. But you look in and you see everything. Usually we're looking outwards, but you're forced to look inwards.
00:50:24
Speaker
I suppose for me, that really reframed it. I came in going, I'm going to help all the other queer individuals who are struggling in the world. And that's a great reason to go in. But you need to really, that changed. The focus really changed from just, what is that for you? Do you need saving? Are you trying to save others because no one was there to help you? Let's deal with all your stuff around that. And then let's go into the work.
00:50:54
Speaker
And I found when I went into the work that all that melted away because my clients, as it turned out, you know, there was quite, there was an array of variety and sexuality didn't even come into it half the time. You know, of course aspects are focused on sexuality, but it was more about
00:51:13
Speaker
the actual problems of living in life currently, you know, in the society we're in, anxiety, depression, it was those common mental health issues that we all share, you know, and that we can all understand. Isn't that mad? A mutual common ground is mental health issues.
00:51:37
Speaker
Yeah, it is so true though. And yeah, I look back on it now and I started to become a therapist to save myself. You know, I wanted to learn what was going on for me and that inward piece of going, hold on, something's not right here. I don't understand something here. And that's why I did it. You know, there's so many parts to that jigsaw for me, but yeah, definitely it was the looking inwards. But also as well, yeah, you think you know what therapy is going to be as a therapist.
00:52:06
Speaker
But you get into it and it's like, actually, no, you know, it is the day to day. It is the stuff that happened in childhood that keeps, you know, the pattern going. And from from working in, you know, with queer matters, it was like, yeah, I had an idea of how that would go. But of course it didn't. You know, none of that is never, you know, the thing you think is happening. It's like, actually, my day to day life is actually really
00:52:31
Speaker
hard and you know like everybody else the emotions are the same the problems are the same and there's only small aspects that are actually got to do with queerness because like i kind of highlighted earlier in relation to well my coming out it happened but then life starts and there's other things that trump it and it becomes less of a thing it just becomes
00:52:55
Speaker
That's a part of yourself that you've accepted and you've kind of processed, maybe not in the healthiest way as a child hiding it inside yourself, but it's you put it out there, you've made that brave step and then all this other stuff kind of starts to come up. And that's probably the long term effects of what happened earlier, obviously. But I think it becomes less about, you know, the kind of sexuality thing and more just about living life authentically, you know, being the kind of
00:53:25
Speaker
being the best version of yourself. I don't think I framed that property though. I think that sounds quite unachievable, but anyway. Being the best version of yourself is unachievable. No, I think it sounds quite, I don't know, quite podcasty.
00:53:43
Speaker
when someone says, be the best version of yourself. And then someone's like, shut up. You know how difficult that is. Yeah, there's a lot of debris to kind of work through there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I get your sentiment though, but yeah, there is somebody listening going off.
00:54:01
Speaker
I love it. Okay. I think that's, I think that's another podcast in itself, as in, you know, fear of mental health, what we think it is versus what it actually is, you know, and, you know, even touching on what we were talking about today, growing up with stigma, growing up with, you know, if you're of a certain age as well, you know, if there's, you know, 80s and 90s, there was a lot happening in terms of,
00:54:27
Speaker
progression for queer rights. And then if you go into the last 10, 15 years in Ireland, that's just changed dramatically. So I wonder, I wonder, yeah, let's talk about what, how, how it has affected mental health, maybe even over time. I think that's a, that's a very professionally done segue into the next topic that would be discussed. Cause I think it is really relevant, you know, it's, okay, we've talked about what it was like for
00:54:53
Speaker
people of a certain age to go through that process and hope it's a bit easier. But what are kind of maybe this? Because the fact is and there's research around it that, you know, queer individuals do suffer more adversity from mental health conditions than their kind of heteronormative counterpart. So, I mean, it would be a really good discussion. I think something to bring in as well is very much the biopsychosocial part of it as well.
00:55:22
Speaker
and just it's not just the individual but the environment and it's very much sometimes your environment that can be triggering and can be negative and you know you can be the best you want to be there's me again but your environment may really hinder that so I think that's really important as well and yeah being able to know that that it's not you you know they're actually the environmental factors are really going to contribute to how you're feeling about yourself
00:55:51
Speaker
I'm not internalizing that. You know when you end your relationship and you try to say, oh, it's not you, it's me. Very good. Well, listen, okay, everybody, you're going to have to listen to the next podcast for us to hear us talking about that. Do you have anything else to say on growing up queer in Ireland? Just that we made us go off. Yay. Yes, we did. We survived. Do we get our t-shirts? We survived.
00:56:20
Speaker
Oh, let's do, yeah. We'll have to do merch. Living our best lives. We're really going to just be turning off in the droves now.
00:56:33
Speaker
Okay, that is our conversation around growing up queer and what it was like. And if you want to share, like, comment, please do. And yeah, our next conversation will be about queer mental health. And we'll be a bit more professional and focused. Sorry, I will be a bit more professional and focused. Excuse me. I'm not talking about Peter Andre dancing beneath the waterfall.
00:57:01
Speaker
That's perfect. I thought that was perfect. Yeah. Okay, folks, we'll talk to you later. Thanks, Koda. Thanks, everyone.