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Sian Horn - Surviving & Thriving Part 2
538 Plays1 year ago
Trigger Warning: Topics include gun violence, miscarriage, and medical abortion. Listener discretion is advised.
Part 2 of my riveting talk with Sian Horn dives deeper into her life's challenges and triumphs. We pick up at a tense moment involving a gun and explore her emotional journey through miscarriages and a forced trip to the UK for a medical abortion due to Irish laws.
Don't miss this episode full of resilience and transformation.
Remember to like and follow The Trauma and Healing Podcast, helping us to share these essential discussions. Enjoy the episode!
You can learn more about Sian and her work through her social media platforms and website:
- Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sian_horn
- Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/sian.horn
- LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sian-horn-86270171
- Website - https://sianhorn.com
You can also listen to her podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or her website.
- Straight-Talking with Sian Horn
- BeBelle Podcast
- Brainstorm in a Teacup
If you or someone you know is affected by domestic abuse, miscarriage or gun violence, please know that you are not alone and there is help available. Here are some helplines that you can contact for support:
- For domestic abuse: National Domestic Abuse Helpline (UK) - 0808 2000 247 or online chat; National Domestic Violence Hotline (US) - 1-800-799-7233 or online chat; Women's Aid (Ireland) - 1800 341 900 or online chat
- For miscarriage: Miscarriage Association (UK) - 01924 200799 or info@miscarriageassociation.org.uk; American Pregnancy Association (US) - 1-800-672-2296; Miscarriage Support Services (Ireland) - 01 8735702 or info@miscarriage.ie
- For gun violence: Amnesty International (global) - online resources; APA (US) - online resources; ATF (US) - 1-800-ATF-GUNS or 1-800-283-4867; American Counseling Association (US) - online resources
As always, if you enjoyed the episode, please remember to like and follow to help promote these important discussions.
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Transcript
Introduction and Trigger Warning
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome back to part two of another episode of the Trollman Healing Podcast. I'm your host, Chloe McGraw, and today, before we get started, a quick trigger warning. Today's episode would include discussions around miscarriage and medical abortion, so listener discretion is advised if you need to switch off and mind yourself.
Meet Shannon and Her Experiences
00:00:23
Speaker
If you were here for the last episode, you'd know that I was in the midst of an in-depth conversation with Shannon, a quick refresher. Shannon is a woman of many talents, a podcaster, Pilates instructor, business consultant, champion of women and small business. In part one of our discussion, we explored Shannon's powerful resilience story, explored her family origins, and left off at a truly chilling moment where she was confronted with a gun pressed to her chest.
00:00:46
Speaker
I know we're all eager to hear that situation resolved and today we will get an answer. But brace yourselves because we're diving in even deeper.
Struggles with Miscarriages and Resilience
00:00:54
Speaker
We will also walk the shine through her emotional and complex journey involving seven miscarriages and a decision to travel to Spain for activation.
00:01:04
Speaker
Moreover, we delve into the emotional and logistical complexity Shan faced when she had to go for the UK for medical abortion, her only option due to the restrictive laws in Ireland at the time. Shan's life is a testament to the power of overcoming adversity, and today's episode promises a rollercoaster through struggles and victories that have shaped her. If you're new to our podcast, make sure to check out part one to fully grasp the depth of today's conversation.
00:01:31
Speaker
And if you find value in these episodes, please consider leaving a review and share them with your friends. Now, without further ado, let's dive back into Sean's incredible story from surviving to thriving. And I remember looking at my dad and looking at my sister and they were in the pub game as well and I thought, I don't want this for myself. So I moved into gyms.
00:01:57
Speaker
I mean, there's a change. Now via modeling for a little while, I did the modeling and I ran a nightclub, had a gun pulled on me in the nightclub actually. Which you want to tell us about that?
Career Transition and Nightclub Incident
00:02:07
Speaker
Well, that was just really interesting. Big family, rough family in the area. And he would, this one guy came in one night and was very aggressive with someone behind the bar. And I just said to him, and I knew him well, come on now, don't be like that. And he just turned around and stuck a gun to my chest.
00:02:25
Speaker
And I remember just going, don't be so silly. This is ridiculous. Oh, absolutely. Well, there's nothing you can do if you've got a gun to your chest. You've got to try it. This is what I find really interesting about you, Shan. You tell these stories, you tell these reactions as if it's nothing. It was a really human response to go fight, fight, freeze there.
00:02:46
Speaker
And you go, don't be so silly. And there's no sense of fear in that. Well, I did think, I know him. He's not going to pull the trigger on me. That's all I was thinking. Don't be so silly. He'd go to prison. However, he'd been in prison about most of his life, actually, when I think about it. But it also- You're like Pollyanna. Do you realize that? You're like, everything is just, it's all going to be fine. It might be in an awful situation, but there's this Pollyanna belief of
00:03:13
Speaker
It's all going to be fine. Do you know the movie Pollyanna? Yeah, I know very well. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just think it like, what do you do in the sense? But I remember going, don't be so daft. This is ridiculous. And he's like, he shoved my girlfriend. And I'm like, he didn't mean to though. He's just going to the bar. But put that down. And I remember going, right now.
00:03:33
Speaker
It's time to go and I never forget, squeeze my hand. So I thought he'd broken every bone in my hand as I walked into the door and I said, see you later, put in a taxi, walk back in and yeah, I landed to the floor and just started crying. Did you? Oh yeah. Wow. And then, yeah, it was mental.
00:03:53
Speaker
And I cried a lot that night because of course I suddenly thought, oh God, I nearly died. Cause he's an idiot and he was drunk and he could have slipped his finger. I don't think it would ever have intentionally killed me, but it could have killed me by accident. But then we had Dorman there that were just as nasty and you know, there was loads going on in nightclubs in those days and
00:04:19
Speaker
Yeah, but again, had great fun at the same time, but thought now is time.
Career Advancements in Dublin
00:04:26
Speaker
You've got to grow up, Sean, at your 26. And so I was like, what should I do? So I went to work for David Lloyd in the gyms.
00:04:33
Speaker
And I remember going in there, just a receptionist job. I was living with a friend, staying at a house for a few months whilst I sorted myself out. And I just let them look, you know, and they were like, why do you want to work as reception? You're a manager. And I said, yeah, but I'll be a manager when you've got a position. I just need to change my career. Was that, that's interesting when you say there, the turning up, doing reception and being able to go home.
00:05:01
Speaker
been able to not carry the weight of locking up. The weight of, is something going to go through the door? Is something going to happen from a disgruntled customer or something? Yeah. No, no, none of that. Because to be honest, it doesn't matter what job I do, everybody always thinks I own the place because I have never worked, whether it be as a Saturday girl or a pot washer, I've always pot washed like the owner.
00:05:30
Speaker
I've always receptioned like I created and built the place. So you're in it. I'm always in it a hundred percent. So, and that's exactly what happened. You know, I started on reception. Everybody thought I was the manager because they didn't have uniforms to fit me. So I had to wear white shirt and all the girls were in blue. So people would presume anyway as well because of uniform.
00:05:53
Speaker
And within a couple of months, a management position came up. And then a year or so later, we went on a David Lloyd Girls Weekend Dublin. I went back to work. My boss annoyed me and I said, do you know what? If we had a club in Dublin, I'd leave anyway. And he said, well, funny you should say that because we're open in Dublin and no managers will go. Will you go?
00:06:16
Speaker
And I went, yeah, go on, let's do it. And so on the 17th of March, 2000, I arrived in Dublin. And when you were on the girls trip, sorry, just so I could rewind back, was that your first time in Ireland? First time in Ireland, yeah. Okay. And what did you make of it? Well, living in a pub in London, I'd met so many Irish people. It was kind of, the Irish are so like the Welsh.
00:06:43
Speaker
Yeah, there's a lot of commonalities there. Yeah, there is. I mean, I couldn't wait. I'd never been to Ireland. And I remember getting on the plane, actually, and my friend said, probably shouldn't say this, but I think it's funny. She went, oh, fiddly D music. And I went, you do know where we're going.
00:07:00
Speaker
And do you know what? We had the nicest time. We ran out of money in the middle of Dublin and a pony and trap gave us a lift home. It would have cost them about a hundred quid I say. And I just thought the people were amazing. And so yeah, when I went back, David Lloyd were launching in Dublin and they didn't have an assistant manager, operations director for Dublin. And I said, I'll go for six months. The Irish charm.
00:07:25
Speaker
Yeah. And I just, I didn't like it at first, to be honest. I arrived, it's in Donnybrook, Dublin for, I was like, where are the Irish? I couldn't hear any Irish accents. I was very confused. However, they didn't like us because we had bought out an Irish company. Now they had voted on it, the members.
00:07:44
Speaker
they didn't like us so I ended up speaking like this constantly for six months because I thought they'll cope if I'm Welsh but they've gone that way so so yeah I used my Welsh accent for quite some time and and then four months in I remember having drinks with the members and going god you were so mean to me when I arrived and they were like yeah and that accent was you know that accent of yours now has changed dramatically
00:08:11
Speaker
settled in you can let it drop a little bit. Absolutely and yeah fantastic times met my best friend straight away from the pub across the road obviously and made a group of friends very very quickly through her
00:08:31
Speaker
and loved my job. I had 11 departments, 112 staff, and it was a phenomenal, phenomenal business. And we turned over a £3 million a year and I loved it. I really loved it.
Personal Loss and New Beginnings
00:08:43
Speaker
And then unfortunately, at five years in, my best friend passed away in her sleep, which was really difficult. It sounds like it was a shock. Yeah, just adult death syndrome.
00:09:02
Speaker
but she probably made my world for me in Ireland. And she was amazing. So to lose her suddenly was really, really difficult. And I'd only lost my dad the year before and she was there for me for that. And I met my husband actually just after my dad's death.
00:09:28
Speaker
Two of my friends, queuing at a nightclub in Temple Bar, had met him and all of his friends. And two of my friends got together with two of his friends. So just after my dad died in the January, one of his friends and my friends were getting married. Oh, sorry, I lied. I met him the year before my dad died at a wedding, but I was there with a fella. I wouldn't even call him a boyfriend. I was there with my plus one,
00:09:58
Speaker
And I ended up going outside and I was chatting to my husband now for about an hour. I just thought he was hilarious and very kind and very nice. And I was like, this guy's really nice. So something sparked. Yeah, something straight away. I knew straight away. And then nearly to the date, 11 months later, our other two friends were getting married.
00:10:25
Speaker
And my dad had just died and I never forget, it was the January, my dad died and my friends were getting married in the February. And my friend texted me and said, look, completely understand if you can't make it with, you know, no pressure at all. And I remember sitting around the table, we were reminiscing about my dad and I nudged one of my sisters and said, she think I should go to that wedding. And she was like, and I said, remember that bloke I was telling you about, he'll be there. And she went, get a flight. We'll pay for your flight, just get a flight. And I went to the wedding.
00:10:56
Speaker
and he didn't talk to me like all day and then about after all that I know and then about 11 this is a year later you're waiting for this conversation absolutely and about 11 o'clock I kept being the mature lady that I am I kicked him in the back of the leg and said you're not even gonna say hello you know and he was like look I heard about your dad I'm really sorry and we ended up sitting up all night chatting and yeah we've been we did long term for about four years
00:11:24
Speaker
And then I said, where were you? So we did that for about four years. So I would have been.
00:11:35
Speaker
37 when I met Liz. So I think the second date, I was like, look, you know, just to let you know, if you're in, I'm having two kids and this is happening and that's happening.
Entrepreneurial Journey Begins
00:11:45
Speaker
I was just at that age, you know, when all of us women go a bit psycho in our 30s, I need to get married and I need children. But I always knew I wanted, you know, I wanted a family. So I told him straight away. I said, then we better get on and get this started then. So ran straight to Boots.
00:12:03
Speaker
got the fertility sticks. And then every time we got a smiley face, I'd jump in the car and drive for four hours down to Cork. This is ovulation kits we're talking about. Ovulation kits, yes. And I'd get in the car.
00:12:18
Speaker
So cute. Yeah, literally. I'd be like, smiley faces on. I'm on my way. All the girls, because at that time, I just started my own business as well. What were you starting? Part of my job with David Lloyd was all the franchises, and they made the decision to franchise out the restaurant and the spa, the beauticians upstairs, which was my pride and joy.
00:12:41
Speaker
And I said to my boss, I can't let that go. And he was like, you best buy it then. So I left and that was my first business that I bought in 2008. And just before the recession opened a second one very quickly in Bray, that was foreclosed on, nothing to do with me. The gym that it was in was shut down, lost a lot of money overnight. That's a hard lesson, I imagine. And really what you're saying there, there's not a whole lot within your control.
00:13:10
Speaker
No control. And it was so funny because I remember at the time lots of people say to me, you know, God, it must be a disaster. You've, you know, you've been so brave starting to work for yourself and then this has happened. And the funny thing, and I always say this to people, I never noticed the difference going from working for someone and working for myself because I'd always worked like I owned everywhere. So yeah, from a physicality of how hard I worked on my passion was always the same.
00:13:39
Speaker
but to lose that sort of money was really scary. Absolutely, yeah. And that again, another time when friends come out of the woodwork and people come and support you that you didn't always say you create your network, which is your net worth before you even know you ever need them. Oh wow. So that again, you create your network. Which is your net worth. Yeah.
00:14:06
Speaker
because people are what the value is. And yeah, and I mean, I suppose we'd taken over the salon, we lost the salon, my dad had died. Then later my best mate dies. So this is the background to you making the decision, okay, we're going to be, well, we are family, but we're going to have a family together. Yeah.
00:14:31
Speaker
Absolutely. And we need to get on with it because I'm in my late thirties. So you were feeling that I have to do this now? Yeah, I just wanted it. Like I wanted it forever. So it was just natural and I knew it was going to be with him. So. That's exciting. Yeah, it was. And I think, I think the sadness that had happened, it was like really lovely. And unfortunately, you know,
00:14:58
Speaker
We got pregnant straight away. So it was amazing. And then my sister got pregnant months after me, which was even more amazing. So we're going to have these babies together. And then obviously, well, not obviously, but we lost that baby.
Fertility Challenges and Medical Journeys
00:15:12
Speaker
I had no idea. I had a 15 week scan. We were late with the scan, but they think the baby had died around 10 weeks. So obviously devastated.
00:15:28
Speaker
Now, I had friends and family that had miscarriages. I'd known the upset, but never understood. And I think that's a really important thing is even if you've had one, all of ours are different and no one's ever going to get yours. And I think that's what's so sad about miscarriages is it's so, so lonely.
00:15:55
Speaker
And half of that is because a lot of them happen in the time that you may not have told people. I was just going to ask you at this point, had you told people? We had told people because we'd gone that magic 12 weeks. So I remember we were all at a summer barbecue and me and Emma told everybody together. So this is the part where you're writing the story of your life. You know, you're writing the story with this baby in it.
00:16:20
Speaker
Oh no, absolutely. You talk about the loss being so personal, everybody's as different. It's because you write the story of this little person in your life. Huge. So I hate to say that we're dealt with it, but that's how I deal with it, is to say I had to bring that to an end. And very fortunately, I feel fortunately that
00:16:44
Speaker
I didn't have to have a DNC, they gave me some tablets and I was in hospital though and I was very well looked after because obviously I, and funny enough, I didn't even like the feeling of the thought that somebody had been dead in me, which is, I don't know, I maybe shouldn't say it, I don't know, but I remember feeling that and it really distressed me that I had, I suppose it's as well that I hadn't noticed. Yeah, I imagine that.
00:17:13
Speaker
is that, yeah, shouldn't I have been more aware or, which obviously you wouldn't because you don't feel stuff till later, but anyway. Well, it's a very common experience. I suppose there's no saying I shouldn't say it. I shouldn't feel it like that is so, yeah. Yeah. And it's my, and it's only mine. So we tried again and lost the second one. I would get pregnant very, very quickly.
00:17:41
Speaker
Then I went to see a fertility expert. I was worried and his words were, what do you expect? You're fat and old. Excuse me. That's his words. From a medical professional. From a medical professional. And I remember just leaving devastated going, there must be something more I can know. There must be, shouldn't even like check me over.
00:18:07
Speaker
They didn't check you over. They didn't do any investigation. Not at two miscouches. They weren't. Like it's not, it is normal. Sorry, the way that it was said to you though. Oh, that's disgusting. I mean, I thought, I mean, my husband is the most placid person in the world and I remember his face. I remember thinking, God, he's going to deck him. Do you know what I mean? Or something, but oh, it's horrible. Absolutely flippant, disgusting. It's not how you speak to a human.
00:18:35
Speaker
especially a vulnerable human. Yes. And to this day, it makes me so angry that, I mean, yeah, no, it's madness, but so we went to pout our way. So we had two more tries and both, miscarried both. And every single one, all those four were so, so different. There was nothing the same about any of them, but every time
00:19:01
Speaker
I thought was the one and every time I left being pregnant and every time I celebrated it. And after the third, I was just like, I'm telling people straight away. They need to understand what I'm going through because, you know. I think that's important that people, they're not telling people till 12 weeks just in case that hides people away. That's why you should tell them straight away. Yeah. Just in case because you're going to need them. Yeah.
00:19:28
Speaker
And I did need people and I was very fortunate actually. I was working for grouping at the time and my boss was amazing. He was so kind to me, gave me all the time I needed to get over, you know, and God, it must've been frustrating. Well, I'm not even going to say that. It must be frustrating for them because obviously I kept getting pregnant and then kept losing these babies. But then I went to another clinic and said, look, I'm really sad and I want some sort of investigation.
00:19:57
Speaker
And they said, look, let's try you with IVF drugs, but obviously because you get pregnant, we don't need to do it to see anything. So we'll inject you. So, and the nurse from that clinic was amazing. She didn't live too far for me. And I was really nervous about the injections at the time. And I'd go around to her house, I'd walk around to her house and she'd inject me. She was so kind, but we lost another three. So at this point I was like, I don't know what to do. I was lost.
00:20:26
Speaker
That's a lot of miscarriages to happen and even, you're saying they're even in contact with the medical field now, specialising in this area, not to have an answer, not to know why is this happening? Well, funny enough, as I got to this point then and
00:20:46
Speaker
When I went to the clinic, they said, go and have your AMH done. And that was the first time after the fifth or sixth miscarriage that I'd ever heard this word AMH. So it's the quality of your eggs. So I went to have it done and it was about three or something, which isn't great, but it's viable, but it's not great at all. But what got me, I suppose, so then after the seventh one,
00:21:14
Speaker
I was like, this isn't gonna work. So we looked into egg donation and my sister said, look, what about if I give you an egg? And me and my sister look alike. She just got pregnant. Sorry. So we had to wait a year to really talk about it even, do you know what I mean? And in fairness then, they couldn't do it. And I get it.
00:21:45
Speaker
There's another loss. But so I went to Spain and I thought, here we go. I'm going to get a real gorgeous 25 year old Spanish egg and went over to Spain and luckily my cousin lives there. So I stayed with him because me and my husband worked together. So the majority of this, fortunately,
00:22:15
Speaker
or unfortunately I went through by myself, because one of us had to be working. I do say fortunately or unfortunately. Well, I suppose fortunately for him, because I don't think he would have let me continue. I don't think he would have let me continue if he really understood what was happening. And so a lot of me was trying to hide a lot of it.
00:22:43
Speaker
because I didn't want him to stop me because it was such a need. So anyway, I went to Spain and it was successful and we were just delighted. Over the moon, got to 12 weeks, everything was fine. Got to 14 weeks, grown perfectly and then went at 16 weeks.
00:23:14
Speaker
they were really obviously watching me and I have to say they were unbelievable in cork like I was so well looked after but at 16 weeks they told me that the baby wouldn't survive its intestines hadn't formed its organs hadn't formed and its body hadn't sealed so I could have well I couldn't at the time because the law hadn't changed
00:23:44
Speaker
to hear back in Ireland here now. So the law hadn't, we voted after that to hopefully this doesn't happen to any other women, but they obviously explained to me that I'd need to go to the UK. So what we're talking about here is you need an abortion. To terminate pregnancy, yeah. Yeah. So you had to travel after receiving that news. You were told that this is medically necessary, was it?
00:24:12
Speaker
Yeah. So, well, they asked me to wait till 20 weeks to do a test, a genetic test. And at 20 weeks, the baby was actually smaller than it was at 16. And still like the brain hadn't formed. It wasn't going to survive. It would have died. We were waiting for the baby to die, basically, which I didn't want to do.
00:24:41
Speaker
And so off I went.
Healing and Sharing Her Story
00:24:44
Speaker
Now, weirdly enough, the place was in St. Margaret's in Richmond, where I grew up, which gave me some solace, but it's a horrible experience. It's cool. I didn't feel like we were treated very well at all. I think I said to you when they took me down, the doctor said, oh, who bought this one in? I was going for lunch.
00:25:12
Speaker
And I just jumped out of the bed and I said, you are not touching me. I swear to God. Cause if you damage any part of my body, because I had two eggs left in Spain, I'm going to come back and I'm going to get you. Terrifying thought while having, you know, while going through this awful, awful moment. Yeah. So, and then to have to think through that. I know. So.
00:25:37
Speaker
Anyway, that was done. I flew back to Ireland and then I made my first appointment. I had to wait six months. I needed to heal and I went back to Spain and I probably wasn't ready to be honest. However, by this point, I felt like I was a ticking time bomb because I kept putting the deadlines off.
00:26:02
Speaker
And for me, like, 44 was the dead, dead, dead line. So, sorry, this length of time when you're going through all this, what age were you, 38 when it started? 38. Yeah. So six or seven years, this kind of, of that period. And it's so weird because professionally it was like a really strong time for me and my business. I won, like,
00:26:26
Speaker
I won this newcomer, Businesswoman of the Year, Elite Pilates, won every award in Cork. Everybody, all they could see was this woman that was working really hard and was successful and got it all. And I was working my tits off to pay people to get a baby. That's what I was working hard for. Yeah. It wasn't for recognition. I just needed to be a success. I needed.
00:26:54
Speaker
to fulfil my needs and wants. But I went back to Spain twice. I wasn't even in the right headspace. Neither of them worked. Are you offered any counselling at this point? Are you offered any throughout any of this anything?
00:27:13
Speaker
No. There was a woman that ran me once from CUH. I didn't really understand. It's so weird. I can't explain it. People are explaining things to you about your body. People are telling you stuff. People are telling you to do this, that, whatever. You can't take it in. How can you? You can't. All you're thinking about is why doesn't my body work? What is going on? What you're describing is a trauma.
00:27:43
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. It's traumatic. And the process of that is our brain. Our brain processing piece is not online to full capacity. So asking you to take in that sort of information is just true. Yeah, no, I mean, and it's impossible. My friend just said, take a pen and pad. You're like, how can I write? You know, I'm just trying to keep my brain in. How did you cope?
00:28:10
Speaker
To this day, I haven't got a clue. I honestly can't remember how I coped. Like I was just miserable, but never outside my four walls. And I suppose that's how you cope, isn't it? Is you try and forget about it. You try and push it back. You entertain people. You help other people. And actually, I suppose that helped me. That did help me. And actually, one thing I did was
00:28:39
Speaker
I remember going on Snapchat and this girl texted me and said, would you tell the story? I hadn't been for my egg donor yet. I just had the seven miscarriages. And she said, there's a platform and they want to talk about miscarriage. Would you talk about it? And I said, you know what, I will. And I did this video and I can't tell you how much that video helped me because you do think you're the only one and you do think you'll go in psycho.
00:29:09
Speaker
And when you reach out, you realize that, you know, everybody's had some, you know, everybody's felt this trauma. I don't care if they've had a miscarriage or their sister or their best mate. It's so normal for it to happen, but we don't talk about it. So when you do talk about it, you feel much more normal. And I think,
00:29:39
Speaker
That's what just, I just wanted to, just couldn't see anybody that wasn't having a baby. I couldn't find anybody that it didn't work for. I couldn't, all of my sisters, my family. So I was like, you do think there's something wrong with you. What would you have liked to have been told at that time? What would you tell yourself? Say to yourself back then, what did you need to hear? There's a different ending for you.
00:30:10
Speaker
and you will be okay. And it's okay to still, like I often apologize for getting upset about it, but I'll always get upset about it. I don't think that will ever finish because it doesn't matter how full my heart is and it is, there is a piece missing and that piece that's missing will always be upsetting.
00:30:40
Speaker
But I need to acknowledge that it's missing too. Yeah. And I think that's really important to you. Like for anyone going through it, you deserve to be seen. You deserve to be heard. What you were saying there is that that needs to be acknowledged. Yes. So, yeah, God, I'm exhausted now. But, but, but yeah, look, it's a, it's really hard to talk about.
00:31:06
Speaker
What brings me joy from the whole story is I can tell you stories of people that have emailed me and people that have DM me. And I've said to them, you know, look, the biggest thing for me is if somebody said to me after my second, my first or second miscarriage, go and have your AMH levels done. That's what you would have liked to have known straight away. Yeah. Because honestly, now I wouldn't have had three to seven. I would have gone straight for egg donor.
00:31:37
Speaker
because it wasn't gonna happen for me naturally. And for me, what upsets me is that they let me go through it.
00:31:48
Speaker
Yeah it sounds so cruel when you put it in that perspective that's so unfair. And it's 100 people are like oh but it does happen for people with an AMH at 1.1 it's a miracle, it's a miracle if it happens and they have a lot of help and they might be doing something you know what I mean but it is like a miracle and at the end of the day when you go for egg donor
00:32:12
Speaker
The AMH of my egg donor had to be over like 25 or 20 or something like that for them to even consider her. OK. So why would they have let me douse myself up with hormones for six years? Because that's half the back. Losing the babies is one battle. But you're also throwing hormones into your body for such a long time. You don't know yourself. Yeah.
00:32:42
Speaker
And for me, I suppose, I always say I felt like I got clean after about two years. I felt like myself again. And then perimenopause kicked in. I was like, you gotta be kidding me.
00:32:55
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? So then that battle starts again. But, but yeah, if I knew what I knew now, I wouldn't have tried myself seven times, 100%. I may not have gone through as much trauma as I've gone through because of what I went through. And I always say to people, this is my thing. So they was like, Oh God. And then the last two eggs didn't, that's not, and I said, no, there's a difference between disappointment and bereavement.
00:33:26
Speaker
And when an egg didn't work, I was disappointed. Yeah. But it doesn't compare to the loss. Disappointment is different and it hurts. It really hurts. And for anybody going through IVF, I am not for one second saying that it doesn't hurt as much, but it's a different feeling.
00:33:51
Speaker
and everybody's so individual. And even now when a friend of mine have had losses or whatever, I always say, look, I'm not even going to comment. I'm not going to tell you, oh, well, mine was a bit like that. Oh, I know someone that this happened. I'm gestured. I've got two years. My mouth is shut. Just talk to me. Tell me how you're feeling. Tell me your story. Yeah, because it's going to be different to mine. And actually, like I said, all of my babies are different stories.
00:34:19
Speaker
Yeah. All of the feelings were different. The losses were all different. But yeah. What helped you heal after that? I know it's not a full circle or anything like that, but there's a carrying on. There's a coming. Sitting down, I kind of, I'd made the decision in my head that it had to stop. And after years of people asking me to stop as well, no one wanted to see me go through this.
Shifting Focus to Personal Growth
00:34:50
Speaker
And then I sort of just had to get a pen and paper out and work out if my, if that isn't going to be my life, what is going to be my life? And the biggest thing for me was I'd never traveled when I was younger because I was always working. And that's my only regret in life was not doing that travel thing. So I was like, okay, if we're not going to have the ties of kids and dogs and whatever,
00:35:20
Speaker
then I need to travel all the time. And when I say all the time, I mean all the time. I need to work hard and I need to book the next flight. I need to work and book and work and book and travel and see as much as I can see and meet as many people as I can meet because the more people I meet, the more fulfilled I am, the happier I am, the more I learn because I'm not a reader. I've never learned from reading, nothing absorbs in me. But if you sit and tell me something or you...
00:35:51
Speaker
I can go on a Pilates course and I could come home and I could teach the whole course because I can watch touch feel and I never forget. So it's almost like a photographic memory. Completely. And I remember at school actually someone saying, oh, I've got a photographic memory and she used to look at book and then close it and say all this stuff. And I was like,
00:36:13
Speaker
Oh my God, she's a freak. It's mental. You're that in the practical sense. I'm 100% that in the practical sense. Once I'm shown something, once someone takes me in a car, directions, that's it. It's in my head and it's there forever, which can be quite annoying for people, but I love it.
00:36:32
Speaker
So tell me, what's life like now then? So it sounds like it's full of joy. There's a lot happening for you. Even just, you know, I was looking at your stories in the last couple of days, there's a new campaign, you know, you started a business. Well, you've always consulted, I think. So as soon as I started working for myself, people rang me because I worked in such a big operation, obviously, loads of people were like, Sean, can you just help me with this? Can you help me with that? And I'm good with numbers. I also have a diploma in HR.
00:36:59
Speaker
and obviously health and safety, because when I worked for David Lloyd, we didn't have any departments. So we, as the top managers, had to be qualified and everything. So straight away from 2008, and I always had one or two people I always helped, but obviously when COVID hit and my Pilates business shut down, I was like, we need to help everyone.
Supporting Others During COVID
00:37:20
Speaker
So I did a lot of work pro bono for a long time, helping people to see if their businesses were viable or not.
00:37:27
Speaker
That was the lie that you used to do lies every day on Instagram. Well, that's how it started, I suppose. So basically 2018, 19, I love, I do love a stage. I was a dancer. I do love a stage. And actually when we got married, so when we decided babies were out, I said to Lee, you know, I can't believe we've got through this and come out the other end. We're happy. We're together. And he was never bothered about getting married either. And I said, but I'd really like to get married now.
00:37:57
Speaker
and celebrate that we are together. And he was like, let's do it. So we had an amazing wedding. I choreographed the whole thing. People said, how did you finish right at the music? I was like, I choreographed the shit out of that. It was amazing. And we made the decision. I said, well, because we weren't sure if we could holiday together, we'd always work together. We said we'd go to a different European city every month. And I booked it. And I booked it actually.
00:38:27
Speaker
for the full year, we had an amazing year. And halfway through, we were like, why did we never do this before? And actually, look how healthy we are. Look how amazing we feel. We are so much better for our business. We're so- So your European breaks were weekends, wasn't it? Or weeks at a time? Yeah, long weekends. Long weekends. Okay. And I was doing lots of MCing and facilitating. So I was having the time of my life interviewing women on stage, entertaining crowds.
00:38:56
Speaker
Give me a mic and 500 people, I'm off, I just love it. So I was having the time of my life, to be honest, and then obviously COVID hit. And it was like, what on earth we're going to do? And I just thought, do you know what? I'll go live every day at 11 o'clock for my own sanity as much as everybody else's. And I'll just talk to all the witnesses.
00:39:17
Speaker
What was the point that you wanted to just talk to see how other people were doing next? Just keep people going. Just keep people going. How can we help each other? Because especially at the beginning, it was like, my business is shut. I've got to pay rent. I don't know what to do. Do you know what I mean? So let's all know.
00:39:34
Speaker
let's all talk about not knowing what to do because it makes you feel better and you know that old saying you know misery loves company and jesus we loved company didn't we the first couple of weeks and remember it was only last in 14 days i was going to do i know this is a novelty
00:39:49
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. I was going to do 10 of these lives. It's going to be great. Six months later, I was still going live every day and the same people were watching every day. And it was kind of, it became like a little, a lovely series. It's actually a podcast called Brainstorming a Tea Cup. And it's a beautiful piece of history, actually. I bloody love listening to it because there's some amazing people on it and it just shows how far we've come.
00:40:15
Speaker
Lots of resilience. People like showed huge resilience during COVID. It was amazing. Yeah. So much, so much, but I, none of it was expected. None of it was, nobody knew what to do. So it was all being made up at the time. Yeah. And I was a scaredy cat and I was like, Oh my God, I'm going to die. I'm fat and I'm 50. I'm just dying because I do think you get scared easily. So I wasn't, I was that person. Oh my, I was like.
00:40:43
Speaker
protect yourselves, you know what I mean? But these lives were great fun and a community started forming. So in November 2020, we launched the club, which is Jess for Female Founders. I'm a member of lots of different networks. I love meeting people. So I'm a member of lots of different networks for lots of different reasons. But I just wanted a place where everybody worked for themselves because unless you work for yourself, you never get it.
00:41:10
Speaker
And you can be as empathetic and you can offer support and everything, but you just never get it. You know, I'd go to, I'd meet friends, I'd be like, God, it's been such a tough week. And they'd be like, oh, I know, but don't panic. And in my head, I'd be going, you get a wage, please shut up. In the nicest way. Yeah. So you, this community again, going back to this piece, talking to people creating community, this is what you,
00:41:39
Speaker
you created again, so you saw your dad do it, you started doing it again. Absolutely. And I did it all the way, I didn't mention this, but all the way through school, we, so every year at school, there was five years in the school, one to five, my sister was in the school with me. So when I went to school, she was in fourth year, I was in first year. And every year you'd nominate four people to be head of your year, but they were nominated by school, by the kids.
00:42:07
Speaker
And my sister was the first person when I arrived and she was in year four, she was the first person to be voted on every year for four years. So I was like, yeah, come on. You talk about that as a challenge. Well, I remember my mum not putting her school down on my sheet and I tip-exed it out and put it top of the list because I wanted to go to the same school as my sister.
00:42:31
Speaker
So I was just head of Collegium all the way through school and you used to have to do a speech to get voted on every year. And I just used to laugh because I'd be so nervous but I've got this stupid laugh so the whole school would be laughing and I'd just get voted in.
00:42:47
Speaker
So that's how I live my life. But just having the crack, I suppose. So yeah, we launched the club and it's amazing. And all of the women in there, it's a support and learning system more than anything. We teach women what they need to know to stay in business. And we have a rule. Our rule is you don't pitch your own business. Find out about other people's and talk about other people's. Because actually when you give a lot in life, I mean, that's a life lesson. When you give a lot, you get a lot back.
00:43:17
Speaker
doesn't always work by the way, but it should. And what I love about it is when someone else, you said to me today, actually, do you want to do your intro? And I said, Oh God, no, because it's always so much nicer when somebody else talks about your business or you always sounds much nicer. It's always much easier as well. And so that's our rule in the club. You don't pitch, you participate and you don't
00:43:45
Speaker
have any competition you just collaborate so I spend my life in there just matching women up and saying you should work with her and you need to work with her and she knows what you don't know so you two need to go for coffee and it's amazing and it's a beautiful beautiful space and I'm really proud of it and it's
00:44:03
Speaker
We've just recently, we put committee together last year, so it's run by committee now. I'm always going to be the founder, but hopefully in a couple of years' time, I won't really be the face of it. Someone else will take over. And that's my legacy piece. That's what I'd like to leave. You inspire women. You inspire business people.
00:44:26
Speaker
But I think the spirit, your story even today is inspiring because there's so much that there's of the time. It's, I don't know. Do you think it's easier actually for women now coming up or is it still, are they still been told the same messages? I think a lot of our problem is ourselves. I think we, we stand in our own way a lot. I do it myself. Like I said earlier,
00:44:56
Speaker
The doubt comes into my head. I listen to it too often. I have to catch it and I get better at it every year, get better at it. But when girls, women can be mean to women and we've got to stop that because that's not good enough. We have a hard enough time as it is. I see things like there's some keyboard warriors, for instance. What on earth, what on earth are you doing?
00:45:23
Speaker
it's it's daft to me i just don't understand it you know like attracts like poison attracts poison you know and that's how it is i always say look if you surround yourself with dicks you're probably a dick i mean i've got a couple of mad friends so i'm probably a little bit mad do you know what i mean because i love them
00:45:46
Speaker
So yeah, but it can't be contrived. I saw something the other day of, these are the kind of people you want to surround yourself and you need this kind of person. That's contrived. None of us are perfect. And actually, if you dig deep enough, everybody's got some magic. The only people that don't know magic are the people that don't believe in magic. So you don't want them because they're sucky dry.
00:46:10
Speaker
But we all have something really important in us, but sometimes people haven't listened to us long enough to find out what it is. So I listen a lot. It sounds like you've a lot of joy in your life. It sounds like you've a lot of inspiring work, inspiring people in your life. So what is it that brings you joy? But it is people, I'll be honest. I love, I could just sit and listen to people all day long. I'm fascinated by people. You should be a therapist.
00:46:38
Speaker
Well, I mean, I am a qualified coach. I'd love, I'd love to get into therapy. No, I wouldn't actually, because my, see, my problem is though, I do take on people's energy. Right. And I have to be very aware of that because I can, I could take, I could, I will say a bit like the green mile, I could suck your sadness out of you, but I'd be left with it.
00:47:01
Speaker
You're going to hold us. Yeah. Yeah. So I have to be really careful about that. And I'm very... How do you discharge us? How do you, when you know you've taken it on, how do you... I'm trying to learn and actually a lovely girl, Michelle, that's in the club is really lovely. And I would text, sometimes I'm doing a story and she'll send me a little text and go, you need to do this. And I'll go, I'm going to go and do that now. Cause she can see it in me. And when I trained to be a beautician,
00:47:30
Speaker
If someone was sick, I'd fall asleep. I might be giving them a facial and my head would start dropping because I'd take their energy. However, if I'm on the bed and I'm in a good mood and a therapist works on me, they're going to be jumping up and down like Tigger because I can give the energy too. Do you know what I mean?
00:47:50
Speaker
Do you know what? I should be a Reiki master. Yeah, literally what was coming into my mind was the Reiki. And I suppose what comes into my mind when you're saying, you know, I'll take on people's pain, it will be hard to hold that. And of course it is, but you're trained not to.
00:48:06
Speaker
you're trained in ways to be able to discharge us and I suppose what you've just said there but what I asked how do you mind yourself in that and having that friend that you can that checks in on you but yeah peer support use peer support somebody who has other coaches somebody who's in the club in on the level that you're off that you're going
00:48:27
Speaker
I just heard this today and so you can talk and let it out. That's so important. That goes across the board. It's not just business. That's life. But you're holding onto yours or others. I do find that piece quite hard because I'm a fixer and because I'm the one that people always come to. I remember recently actually somebody ran me about something and there was upset in them, but they needed
00:48:54
Speaker
They needed something fixed and I didn't think about what was upsetting them. I just thought how I could solve it for them. And then I heard that they weren't happy with the way I dealt with it. And I was like, but I had shit going on that day. My uncle had died and I was just trying to get a solution. They hadn't put themselves in my shoes because that people are so used to me fixing and always being available. I'm all that.
00:49:22
Speaker
The boundaries can be, can blurred and I'm much better now with my boundaries. I always say people that push your boundaries are people that always complain about boundaries. Yeah. They're the ones that need it. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I do struggle with that bit a little bit. I think because I don't want to turn up anywhere and go.
00:49:46
Speaker
I feel like shit, you know what I mean? Because people are used to me going, how are you feeling? And then they tell me they feel like shit and I'm like, well, I need to fix this for them.
00:49:55
Speaker
That's the point of peer support. You know, you make the time if it's once a month and you go, okay, listen, I'm bringing this stuff that I've been carrying for the last week because everybody is carrying this stuff. Everybody carries it. Yeah. And there is finding ways. You're my new best friend, Clodagh. Yeah, yeah. We've set up a peer support room between you and your business leaders and coaches and we just have a download every month. And I think that's actually that word is why I find it difficult because they, so for instance, in the club, I'm the leader of the club, the founder,
00:50:25
Speaker
Yeah. I lead it in my business. I am the teacher, the leader. When I do an event, I'm at the front leading, facilitating. Yeah. So, and I often say I'd love, I'd like to go to America for a week and not know anybody and just, I dunno, not, and this sounds a bit deep, like not be sad for a week, but just not feel any pressure to be happy. Yeah.
00:50:55
Speaker
Yeah, I really feel that. And I think that is so, that'll resonate with a lot of people as well. Anybody in a leadership role needing to be switched on, needing to be on the game of, okay, I'm here and I'm doing whatever and I can't be sad today. Yeah. Can't be off my game. And as a therapist, I really feel that as well. It's really hard to go, actually I'm struggling. Yes. But I suppose there's a great lesson in that. If you can't do it and you're telling your people to do it,
00:51:26
Speaker
There's a line to walk there and go, okay, I have walked this line. I know what it means now. I know how hard it is to step into self care. I know how hard it's to step into self care when you're really low. And that's probably the most important time to step into it.
00:51:41
Speaker
Well I am just about to book my first solo travel because I think I need it and the laptop's not coming with me and the phone probably will come with me but the laptop is important to stay and but I'm going to go by myself and because I feel like I have lost a little bit myself over the last couple of years and I just need to go away, lie by Paul, think
00:52:03
Speaker
Reflect, meet some new people, learn some new stuff, do a cookery course. I don't know, but do something. You've been giving, giving, giving quite a lot. And there is a point where you have to shut that down. You have to come back in and see, check in where you're at. Cause it's not, we're not finite energy beings. It's, we are finite. We have, we only have so much that we can give. Yeah.
00:52:30
Speaker
Okay. So, I mean, before I go, so I did kind of touch on this briefly. So, and listening to your stories the last few days, you're actually doing another campaign at the moment. Can you tell people what that is?
Advocacy for Small Businesses
00:52:43
Speaker
Because I think this is going to be something, well, from you talking about it, you're very excited about it. So it's the, how does it go? So Champion Green are champions of small business in Ireland and they're the leaders and the creators of Green Friday. And basically.
00:53:01
Speaker
We have joined forces and I'm traveling the country speaking to men and women. I need the boys and looking at what goes on behind the scenes of these small businesses and actually teaching people.
00:53:15
Speaker
why they need to support local and the value of doing that, not just for the small business itself, but for the economy and keeping the money in the country and trying to just balance things out. So for instance, over 70% of the money leaves the country on Black Friday.
00:53:33
Speaker
During COVID that didn't happen because we were so supportive. And I just think we went back to a rat race last year and we've forgotten about supporting our small independent local businesses. And it's not about not spending money in the big supermarkets or whatever, they employ a lot of people.
00:53:54
Speaker
But it is, if you're gonna go, I said to someone today, if you've saved up for three months to buy this thing you need off Amazon on Black Friday, then buy it. But,
00:54:05
Speaker
Let's get some balance. If you're going to buy it off your laptop, go into a local coffee shop, buy your lunch and your coke, put the laptop, spend some money in there, and then maybe stop in a local shop on your way home and purchase something. Balance it out. Too much is leaving the country. And we can all moan about there's not enough houses. If we looked after small business, because it is the backbone of this country,
00:54:34
Speaker
It would be unbelievable what would happen. I mean, if you put, look, I always say we pay more than Apple do. So like, we should be well supported. So I'm so humbled to actually drive this because this is my passion.
00:54:49
Speaker
This has made me so happy. It couldn't have been a more perfect job for me. And yes, we hit the road next week. I was 12 hours back to back interviewing potential people yesterday to be some of the businesses, but anybody that contacted me will be involved in one way, shape or form. They just might not be, you know, a full interview, but I'm involved in as many people as I possibly can.
00:55:14
Speaker
Where can people see this? So is this an Instagram thing? Yes, or they can contact me at hello at sharnhorn.com
00:55:23
Speaker
or they can go to my Instagram page, which is shahn underscore horn, or my LinkedIn is shahn horn as well, and they can drop me a DM. And just at the moment, because we're doing the Christmas lead up and Good Friday, it would be great if they're not services. I'd like retail or creatives. Don't have to be a bricks and mortar. You can sell online or on Itzy or whatever it is, but I'd like to show people how people make things. And a good example is,
00:55:49
Speaker
We were talking the other day, a lady makes beautiful crochet jackets. And I asked her how long it takes to make and it takes 60 hours to make that jacket. And I was like, okay, so in my head, worst case scenario, minimum wage is around 10 euro. That should be 600 euro. And she has it for 150. And when you think of it like that, what a bargain that is. Yeah. What love went into creating that?
00:56:16
Speaker
That's me, and that would last you forever. We have to stop being...
00:56:22
Speaker
We have to do better. It's not about being perfect, but we just gotta do better. And we were doing so well, and we've just forgotten. So anybody that's interested, you on your website have, you can do a consultation with yourself. So if anybody's looking to talk about an already existing business, talking about getting into business, just talking about an idea with you. Yeah. And the thing is I do a clinic, which makes it cheaper for people. And it's a 30 minute, it's like speed business dating.
00:56:50
Speaker
But I will say to people, don't rush off. Well, I can't answer within the 30 minutes. I will always answer for them after by email or whatever, but we've never needed the extra time to be honest. But that's for people that need something a little bit more affordable, but need the knowledge. And then I do obviously my business consulting and mostly I do power hours and people can book those on my website as well. Okay. Fantastic. I love that all in. Amazing.
00:57:17
Speaker
Thank you so much. I mean, we covered so much in the conversation today and I think, I do think people are going to get a lot out of it and I really appreciate you sharing. There's a lot of hard moments in your life and I just want to thank you for sharing that with me today. Thank you for letting me share it. I'm exhausted now. I'm going to go to sleep. Do your self care. I absolutely know, but I thoroughly enjoyed that. It's good to get it out every now and then, you know what I mean? Yeah.
00:57:46
Speaker
Okay, folks, I again, Shan, thank you very much. Thank you for listening. And yeah, go follow Shan on Instagram. What is, what's the handle again? Okay. That's all of you. Thanks folks.