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Queer Mental Health - Part 2
58 Plays2 years ago
On this episode of The Plainly Queer Podcast, we continue our discussion and exploration of Queer mental health. In Part Two we focus on the different types of therapies available and how they may benefit Queer individuals. We discuss our own experiences of therapy and how this impacted us both negatively and positively.
From person centred therapy to CBT and existential therapy; join us in this candid and informative discussion about the therapies available to the LGBTQ+ community.
Please note this episode discusses potentially distressing topics. Engage mindfully and seek professional help if needed.
Thank you for being part of our Plainly Queer community.
Below is a list of resources that may be of help to anyone listening:
Queer affirming counselling and psychotherapy services: https://www.insightmatters.ie/
LGBTQ+ community support in Ireland: https://lgbt.ie/
LGBTQ+ Youth Support in Ireland: https://www.belongto.org/
Transgender Equality Network Ireland: https://teni.ie/
The Samaritans: https://www.samaritans.org/ireland/samaritans-ireland/
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Transcript
Podcast Intro and Musical Plans
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello folks and welcome back to Plainly Queer. We're still working on the intro but we'll get there. We're gonna record a little ditty and you know have music and all that sort of stuff and Paul's gonna sing for you.
Humorous Blame on Paul's Singing
00:00:19
Speaker
Just to ensure we have the least amounts of listeners possible.
00:00:25
Speaker
Today's, I'm just going to blame people that it is that, you know, it's Paul's voice. That's why we don't have listeners. If we do this off of an intro, sorry, go on. I'll interrupt you. Go on. You've got something really lovely to say there.
00:00:39
Speaker
I'm sure I do and people are like, is that it?
Introduction to Talk Therapies
00:00:42
Speaker
Today's episode is about talk therapies and the benefits of therapy. And we might talk a little bit about our journey through therapy. I actually need a new word for it. That's all we're going to talk about. That's all we're going to talk about. It's our journey through therapy. We know where this is going. We know where this is like the last one. We're going to talk about queer mental health, basically our mental health. That's about ourselves. Yeah.
00:01:06
Speaker
If you want to know how we're doing, go back to that episode.
00:01:13
Speaker
Yeah. So, okay. So yes, today is about talk therapy.
Therapists Needing Therapy
00:01:18
Speaker
So you and I, as therapists and therapists in training are, uh, required to go through our own therapy. Now I need to therapy well before I began, you know, training in it. So what was your journey? How did you start or how did you, did you want to go to therapy at first? I think sometimes people don't want to go to therapy. Did you know you needed therapy? Yes.
00:01:43
Speaker
I think that's a good question. I wasn't expecting that. It's like curveball, but it brings up- I wasn't expecting it before I even said it. It just brings up memories. The first time I went to therapy, it was, I remember I was working in a job.
Seeking Therapy During a Crisis
00:01:59
Speaker
I started, now you're going probably back about 20 years. I'm not going to say what age I was, but I was in my- It wasn't ages. 20? No, early 20s. No, it wasn't 20 years ago. I'm totally giving it away now.
00:02:13
Speaker
I was in my 20s and I was going through a little bit of a crisis. I'd got this amazing job. So I got offered this amazing job in the Middle East and I had given up my room that I was renting. I had left the job that I enjoyed in Dublin and I was offered this amazing job opportunity and I'd gone through all the interviews, it had gone really well, didn't expect to get it, got it.
00:02:42
Speaker
They were like, that's amazing. Come live in the Middle East. We're going to give you all your accommodation. And it was like this amazing. It was amazing. And I was like, couldn't believe it. Told everyone and, you know, gave up my job, gave up my apartment, packed up everything into this one suitcase. We can all see where this is going, can't we? Can't you? Yeah.
00:03:07
Speaker
The literally the day before I was due to go, I got a phone call and they were like, we have to postpone you for a while. We know you're all ready to go. And I was just so deflated. And that week turned into two weeks. And then that turned into, and I just remember, I was like, oh my God. And it was awful. It didn't happen in the end. And I'd given up everything to take this risk.
00:03:33
Speaker
And I was so, and as a result, I'm very mistrusting of any opportunity that comes my way now. It is always too good to be true. And I always ensure I protect myself now. So that kind of
Managing Depression and Anxiety
00:03:45
Speaker
plays into how I operate as a person. But it was a big trauma for me. But anyway, in that time, I was readjusting to the fact that I wasn't going to go and this opportunity wasn't happening.
00:03:57
Speaker
So I had to get a new job. Luckily, I was able to stay in the place that I was renting. They had rented it out. So that was great. And I got another job. But this job was not the job I had before. It was totally not who I wanted to be as a person. It didn't play to who I was. And I just went through this crisis. I was depressed. I was anxious. It was just awful. The anxiety for me is in my stomach. I feel it there.
00:04:25
Speaker
I go through this kind of the fight or flight, the parasympathetic nervous system, it's all firing. And then the way I work then, I go into this like depressive low for a while. So I was in the depressive low and I was like, nah, there's something, I was just hating my life. How long was this going on for? Was it like weeks, months? Weeks. I don't wait around long enough. The way my ADHD brain works now, nothing lasts that long.
00:04:54
Speaker
at least probably a couple of days, couple of weeks. And I got another job. I tend to, that's one thing about my overactive, hyperactive brain. Keep going, keep moving. It keeps going. And it doesn't give you much time to kind of wallow. But in the moment, you do feel those feelings. No, no, that's not. Yeah, it was a dark place, but it is. It's the one thing where the HD does help you. It kind of kick, kick-starts you out of it. But yeah, so.
00:05:23
Speaker
I was like, I need help. So I went to a GP and they were like, okay, have you tried talk therapy? I didn't want to go down the roof. The GP said that to you the first thing. A GP? Yeah, it was a very good GP actually. Now he did want to prescribe me something, but I was kind of like, I'm very wary of medication. So it's just like, I'd rather not. And he was like, okay, talk therapy. I don't know why I went to the GP first if I wasn't willing to try medication.
00:05:51
Speaker
I should have, I think it gave me short-term Xanax. But also they're good sign posters, you know? So anybody listening the same, like, you know, I was the same, you know, I was hesitant about medication and you don't have that information on your hands. And you don't know, even if you're Google or something, should I go to them? What type of therapy? And I know we'll go into this, but you know, they're a great starting point for somebody. And just hopefully they will suggest that, you know, talk to somebody. Yeah, before you start anything long-term,
00:06:21
Speaker
And I would always... Not that Medicaid
Finding the Right Therapist
00:06:23
Speaker
is bad, by the way. We are not anti-medication. All about it. All about it. It serves its purpose. But listen, not to laugh at town. Not the only show in town. Oh my God. Yes, it's not the only show in town. Sometimes they work great together. It's whatever suits the individual. So I'm talking about me. And this is my experience. But yeah, so I went to the doctor. The doctor was like, OK, I'll give you a short term little Xanax fix.
00:06:50
Speaker
And, but you should go talk therapy and then come back to me. And the therapy works if you feel better. So I went to the therapist and I went for about seven sessions and I didn't even, I wasn't even able to tell this person that I was gay. And I was okay with my sexuality. I, sexuality wasn't the issue. I was, I had been out and gay for many years and plastering myself all over the George.
00:07:18
Speaker
but all over the gay scene in Dublin. But it was just, I couldn't, I don't know, I couldn't get into the space. I couldn't trust the space. But then again, I'd just been let down something fierce. So probably I couldn't trust. Yeah. So I was in that headspace, but yeah, it wasn't working for me, but I had naturally come out of my low anyway. So I had gotten through it. Now it probably did help in a way to get it out and talk.
00:07:47
Speaker
But I just felt I wasn't really gelling with the individual. I think I got great satisfaction out of just talking about the immediate things that were affecting me. But I didn't feel I was gelling with the individual. Nothing against them or their way of being, I just wasn't gelling. So I think after the six or seven sessions, I left. But I did realise the benefits of it.
00:08:15
Speaker
I then linked into it a couple of years later. I think I went through not something as big, but I was going probably through something in my life. So you knew you could use it as a resource. Yeah, I leaned into it. And that was an amazing body of work. I think I was there for about 15 sessions. And I'll name drop here. It was Insight Matters. And it was an amazing experience.
00:08:42
Speaker
I just felt like I had a connection to this person. This person understood me. And we're talking about the affirming kind of therapy as well. It's like matters as a queer affirming space. And I knew that going in. So I suppose that kind of eased me a little. And it was just great. I told this person stuff I'd never told anyone. And it was great to get it out there and not have the judgment and not, you know, to feel that you're not judged and you can say anything.
00:09:09
Speaker
I think there's always aspects of ourselves that we won't bring because the mind can be a dark place and we all have dark kind of thoughts that we're very difficult to put out there. And there's a fear again that we're going to be judges. There's a fear of going, Jesus, if they see this, they're going to think I am this, that or the other. They're going to think I'm a monster.
00:09:30
Speaker
Yeah, because I think I'm a monster for having the pot in the first place or probably, you know, maybe it's something you did when you were, you know, plastic or something like that. And you're like, well, I can't tell anybody this.
00:09:43
Speaker
And the one thing I keep going back to, and I remember when I was in training going, you know, they were talking about, you know, what will you do? You know, if somebody comes in, they tell you something in your shot or whatever. And the point about it was going, anything anybody does is capable. You are capable of the same. And I remember all of us were like, excuse me? No, we're not.
00:10:05
Speaker
And I was, it's human. If somebody sitting in front of you has said they've done something, they've done it as a human. So given the right circumstances, given their life, given their experiences, given what they've just gone through and put you in that situation, you may very well do the exact same thing. And I remember going, Jesus, yeah. So the reason why I'm saying that is, is because yes, we all do have our deep dark secrets and we are, we are afraid. I cannot say this. What would they think of me? Because I think X, Y and Z of me.
00:10:34
Speaker
But for me, it just proves your humanity, you know. I think we, I'm going to segue, it will bring me back if I go too far, OK? Just as you're talking, you know, those, we all have our deep dark secrets. And I think that's so, that's even more prevalent for queer people.
Understanding Jung's Shadow Self
00:10:54
Speaker
And for me, I really like the concept of like Carl Jung and his work around the shadow and what we kind of hide in our shadow selves.
00:11:04
Speaker
Can you explain that to people who don't know what we're talking about? So as a therapist, I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So shadow self is what? The shadow self is all those parts of yourself that were not accepted by the outside world, or you feel are not accepted by the outside world, or you feel, you know, if you put them out there, you will get rejection, you will not feel. Yeah. So they go
00:11:33
Speaker
into yourself that you put them back there and you put up a mask. So you put up a persona, you put up a mask, you be what you need to be in your environment to survive, to be acceptance, to be loved, to be... So everything that you feel will make you rejected or, you know, will like... I don't frame these things very well theoretically, but if I'm writing them down, oh my God, I can write them down so well.
00:12:02
Speaker
But yeah, so the shadow is all those kind of what might be perceived as negatives are put into the back of your mind and they dwell there in the shadow. And for queer individuals, I'll speak for myself from my perspective. And this is like, it's really interesting. I have existed for the majority of my life
00:12:32
Speaker
in the shadow like in my shadow self because that's my true self that's everything I was hiding when I was growing up everything that I kind of everything that was me was put in the shadow because that would not be accepted by the outside world so you're putting it all in your shadow self for no one to see and you're existing there and then you have this mask this persona that you're showing to the world yeah to
00:12:59
Speaker
go through this heteronormative narrative to kind of live how you are taught you should live. And it's only as I got older, I was kind of like letting that shadow self out. But I think because a lot of me dwelled in that shadow for so long,
00:13:20
Speaker
There are some dark stuff. There's some anger there. There's some like, how dare I be kind of made to live in this shadow for so, how dare I be made to like, you know, have to exist in this space and not be my true self. How valid is that though? How beautiful is that anger? Because that is true. You should never have had this. That's where like a lot of my kind of fierce emotions come from where I'm just kind of like. There's a benefit of therapy.
00:13:49
Speaker
You know, yeah. Yeah. So that, that, like, that. Fabulous. Well done for putting that. Um, and you did you eloquently put it and, um, I almost had an image and not a view, but like an image of like, you know, column hiding in the shadows or something. Yeah. My precious. Yeah. But, you know, oh yeah. That telling me that internalized homophobia piece.
00:14:18
Speaker
I'm sorry to interject, I'm so sorry, but just as you were talking about Gollum and like that creature in the shadow. It might be lost if you haven't heard the other kind of the mental health episode that we did, the queer mental health. But you remember when I had talked about that having to reassure myself that I'm like a man and that I'm capable, that I'm actually a man and I'm capable of that. I revert back to that Gollum-like thing that's in the shadow.
00:14:46
Speaker
That was made to, I revert back to that. It's been not okay person, not okay piece. Being vulnerable and being kind of that meekness. It's fascinating. And like, I did some shadow work. I did a lot of it with a really good Jungian psychotherapist and they were very good. And I was lucky enough to have this person as, because of course, as part of core training, I had to do 50 hours of personal therapy.
00:15:15
Speaker
And this person was with me for the majority of that. And it was great to do that. It was great to be compassionate to the fact that a lot of me had to exist in this shadow. And a lot of me still exists in this shadow. And that I do have a shadow side, but my shadow side is a lot of my true self. And that true self is a little bit dark and a little bit, yeah, anarchist. I like it.
00:15:45
Speaker
And I think that as well, you know, when you go, I, I, I'm going to say this, but I want to go back to a question cause you touched on something and Jesus and now I've lost it. I should have just said it and then came back. We should just keep interrupting each other whenever. Okay. I'll go back to what I was going to say. And that was, you know, you talk about young
00:16:06
Speaker
And that's sort of psychodynamic type of therapy. Did you do other therapies? So like for anybody listening, there are different, many different types of therapy and many just different types of therapy altogether. So what types of therapy have you done?
Exploring Therapy Types
00:16:21
Speaker
So I have done, I suppose, person centered kind of talk therapy. Yeah, which is kind of, you know, I think that was my first therapist actually was a person centered
00:16:35
Speaker
Yeah, that would be kind of Carl Rogers, you know, core conditions where you're kind of met with, you're given space to kind of find. Unconditional, positive regard. Yeah, you're given that non-judgmental space. You will find your way to what you were looking for in this space. You know, we'll walk together on a journey. Exactly. You know, you will go where you want to go. And it's a lovely way of just
00:17:04
Speaker
dipping your toe, not dipping your toe. That's awful. Oh my god. Yeah, in the back. If you ever go into therapy, that would be kind of just I'd say a basic tenant of how I work is like, you know, anybody sitting in front of me, you are who you are. I have no right to tell you otherwise. And if I can fully accept you as you are and love you as you are, and people say, you know, you're a therapist, you shouldn't be loving, but I'm like,
00:17:30
Speaker
I actually think we all need to be doing that. I will accept you fully and love you for that. And I'm not talking obviously romantic film, but I mean just genuinely every human on this planet is trying to do their best. You know, even most definitely. Yeah. So that's where I have a basic, you know, that's where just out of any modality that I even work from as a therapist. That's the basic, that's what I was trained in as well. And I think it's important to point out as well for people listening that like,
00:17:59
Speaker
your core training always starts from that, like it always kind of starts from person-centred, the core conditions, you build a robust foundation of listening skills, like being present, just that non-judgmental space, and then you build on that and you go off into other kind of modalities or specialities. I suppose other things I have tried, I tried like that Jungian kind of psychoanalytic, psychodynamic psychotherapy, where you kind of
00:18:29
Speaker
dig a little bit deeper. It's all about, you know, why are you doing what you do? It's like an investigation, Nerdy. It's like putting a little microscope and it's threads. It's following threads back and it's not being afraid to go down the wormholes and it's inferring from the past and inferring like a deeper meaning, I suppose. I love metaphor.
00:18:59
Speaker
and Carl Jung would have worked a lot with Metaphor and he has a great book, A Man and a Symbol, I think it is. He does archetypes and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, I love that. That's kind of around for me, possibly in the future. Don't get me wrong, it's very hard to conceptualise it because it is so vague and it's kind of the mystical side
00:19:26
Speaker
of psychotherapy. He was very kind of spiritual. Well, when I say spiritual in his approach to it, and you know, there was something, yeah, magic in how he came to his theories and came to his type of therapy. There's something really intuitive about it. There's also something that comes to me and you follow, as you say, the threads using your intuition going, okay, well, what is this? Okay. That kind of brings me here. That kind of brings me there. That kind of.
00:19:55
Speaker
and you just keep going, going, going. As you say, down in the rabbit hole, you're going, okay, now I've got this. Yeah. You're trying to infer, so we have our consciousness, what we're conscious of, and then we have our unconscious. So did you ever see the iceberg diagram? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I suppose to frame it for people. So what we see in the surface is nothing, yeah. Exactly. So you have this little tip of the iceberg dipping out of the water, and that's your consciousness. That's what you are aware of.
00:20:24
Speaker
And then below the water, you have your unconscious, which is enormous. Yeah. It's like, and it's fast. So it's trying to, I suppose that psychotherapy is trying to, yeah, exactly. Make that unconscious conscious and to bring these things into your awareness. I know we said, sometimes awareness is a double-edged sword. And this is what I mean by that. Because sometimes these things can come up and you're kind of like, oh, well, like the shadow, for example.
00:20:54
Speaker
You have these dark sides of yourself and like, how do you? Anger can be one of them. Oh yeah. I love anger. I love, as in, you know, when people tap into that, but the double-edged sword of that is, is that, you know, a lot of the times people are absolutely justified. You know, when people, your anger is your anger, you're justified. But what I mean by that is when you realize, hold on a second, that was not okay. You know, they should not have said that. They should not have did that. Or I can't believe that happened to me and nobody did anything.
00:21:23
Speaker
And you get really angry at maybe you could internalise it at yourself, but also the people around you and go, oh, I don't know how to handle this. This is really because it's brand new. You may never have been allowed your anger before now.
00:21:39
Speaker
And now it's the awareness of it. It's all there. And you may have to come into contact with those people and get really activated in that anger again and go, I don't know what to do with this. I don't know what to do with this anger when I see these people like that. This is the stuff I was talking about 30, 40 years ago. Why am I still angry now? Do you know what's great though? Sorry, Claudia, when you're talking like that, it's something that's coming up for me. The great thing about awareness is and bringing these things to the forefront of your, not into your consciousness,
00:22:09
Speaker
is that I think, and it just struck me there, but I think I knew, when you're aware of how you are in the world and why you are in the world, it's easier, like you'll still get depressed, you'll still get anxious, you'll still get triggered, you'll still get all these things, you'll still get quick to anger, but you'll be able to kind of rationalize it easier. It's easier to rationalize it and understand it. And just to say, hold on a second,
00:22:40
Speaker
I know why I just did that. And it's reach, oh, I'm going to segue into CBT. Can I segue into CBT? Absolutely. I was going to ask you, had you ever had it? Go on. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I will be honest and say the CBT I did do, I didn't see out the full six sessions like that. I didn't really, I suppose, mesh with the person. It was very structured and there was a lot of
00:23:06
Speaker
I don't know, there was a lot of trying to get information that I just, it was, yeah, it wasn't for me, but saying that I have done CBT. So CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy. It's basically reprogramming your brain is the easy way to describe that. But I suppose for me, I did CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy worksheets myself.
00:23:31
Speaker
And I found them very good. And of course I studied this in college as well, in core training, and I've actually used interventions myself. That's the great thing about the pluralistic approach. And that's why kind of pluralistic therapists are really good because they can kind of- So pluralistic therapists are? Therapies, therapists that kind of would draw on some of these modalities. So, you know, we could start off with a person centered approach.
00:23:57
Speaker
And then something might, if anxiety or depression is featuring a loss, maybe a CBT kind of exercise, just to kind of examine negative thoughts and, you know, structure these negative thoughts and challenge these negative thoughts. And, you know, then maybe in a couple of weeks time or a couple of sessions, then the way, you know, you have a mad dream and you kind of want to discuss the dream that, okay, let's do a little inferring here. Let's like do a little bit of psychodynamic here.
00:24:27
Speaker
the thing about this is you're looking for a therapist that's competent in all these and it's competent in all these. And I think, you know, that's why I'm like, shop around, but no, do kind of do your research.
00:24:41
Speaker
Yeah and I mean you've touched on it you know you may not gel with a person and that is perfectly okay that doesn't mean therapy is bad that just means you don't get on with the person you're talking to there's something about it whether it is the type of therapy so like maybe you go in for a CBT and they're a pure CBT therapist
00:25:00
Speaker
that is not the therapy you need or want and you realize that in there and it's something we mentioned earlier is if you're a people pleaser do not stay in therapy to please your therapist don't be nice don't do that it's a waste of money yeah it's a waste of money
00:25:16
Speaker
I have to apologize. I'm talking a lot. I'm sorry. You level me out more usually. I feel like I know what I'm talking about. So I'm more confident in it. But I suppose I just wanted to touch on EAP programs, which are employee systems programs.
Therapy Access Through Work
00:25:44
Speaker
And I will put my hand up and say, I've utilized these in three jobs that I've had over the last two years. So now these are jobs. I was on a career break with COVID from my main day job. And because I'm, of course, I'm not a fully fledged out there therapist yet. I'm kind of on my baby legs, but if I have to have a day job.
00:26:04
Speaker
But when I was in the gap, basically what he's saying people is his window or his, his diary will be opening very soon. And he's looking for, you know, anybody, you know, where to go. Yes. They'll avoid us after listening. I'm not going anywhere near him, but sorry. Yes. I was in it to say I was in a job and I was working in a healthcare setting and I seen a poster on the wall and it was like, oh, a employee assistance program.
00:26:33
Speaker
you know, you can get six free sessions of counselling. And I was like, bonus, yes, six, six sessions to just be about me. Yes, please. So I utilised them and I did it and I did it in those three different jobs. And I didn't last very long on those jobs because it weren't for me and I was on a career break and I was trying everything and anything. But I made use of those EAP programmes and those six free sessions.
00:26:57
Speaker
You know, you, you've touched on something there as well. And that is the benefit. And a lot of people go, Oh, I can't go to therapy. Like I'm not, you know, this, this, you know, I speak from an Irish perspective going, you have to be mad to go to therapy sometimes, or maybe you're mental to go, all of these sorts of things. There's nothing wrong with me. Don't go to therapy. You don't have to go to therapy if there's something wrong with you. Do you know what I mean? That's not the only reason, sorry, to go to therapy if there's something wrong.
00:27:24
Speaker
One of the things I love about therapy is having somewhere to go every week for an hour that I can just talk about the stuff that's going on in my life.
00:27:33
Speaker
Whether that be work, whether that be, I had a conversation this weekend, it pissed me off. Or actually, you know what, something, I remember something from years ago, and it's been really bothering me. Stuff like that happens in our lives all the time. We may not have either the time to be able to sit down with somebody because it's not appropriate, maybe it's a workplace.
00:27:55
Speaker
maybe the person is going through something themselves and you don't have, you can't talk to them about where they're going through it, or you may not have that somebody that you can just go, can I just, you know, verbally vomit at you for the next hour? Because, you know, I just want to get this out of my head. That's what I know. Like, you know, I did a lot of work, you know, and parathy is where to not be, you know, under the impression that it's not hard at times.
00:28:20
Speaker
Sometimes it's just like, this is what's going on in my head and I want to talk about. It doesn't have to be the trauma. It doesn't have to be the breakup. It doesn't have to be, you know, anxiety driven things that could be just, this is my life and I'm talking about it. It's actually just as you're kind of talking there, I want to, if it's okay to speak to something I went through recently, because, you know, up to close to a hundred personal therapy hours and I'm
00:28:49
Speaker
You still haven't got a handle of myself, but something that happened recently, because I've gone on to specialise in sex and relationship therapy, I was like, okay, well, I have to go now and see a sex and relationship therapist and kind of get a sense of what that's like. So I went to find a lovely sex and relationship therapist and got into it and I was like, okay, it's going to be all about sex. And it was nothing. It was no, not nothing to do with sex. Yeah, sex was touched on.
00:29:18
Speaker
because of course we're all sexual beings and, you know, sexuality a part of us. It's a fundamental part of us, a very important part of us. But there was other things that kind of trumped us. Like a lot of the time, like... The day to day stuff. The day to day. And like, I remember we were about four sessions in and, you know, I was just talking, you know, I got my shit together. I'm an okay person. And you could tell, like, you know, it was more two peers.
00:29:45
Speaker
just kind of like, you know, like talking and like, no, don't get me wrong. I was still being honest and everything like that, especially in relation to sex. But I went through a really distressing event and I actually emailed her because we were going every two weeks and I was like, oh my God, do you have availability this week? And they were like, yeah, I actually do. If you'd like to meet up. And I was like, yes, please, as soon as possible. And I literally cried for 50 minutes.
00:30:15
Speaker
I cried. I was a ball of tears. I was that vulnerable golem just crying. And at the end of the session, they were just like, thank you so much for opening up. And now in the next session, then after that, they actually said to me, that's like that's what I was waiting for. I was waiting for that rawness. I was waiting for that vulnerability. And of course, they could say this to me because I'm you know, I'm also like in that professional space. So they knew like I wouldn't fall to pieces.
00:30:45
Speaker
But they were like, to see you that vulnerable, it was just like, and I had you, I was holding you and I felt like you knew you were safe here to do that. And you knew that was what spaces were. That is gold star therapy though, isn't it? Of course. But therapy won't always be those aha moments or those, there's a lot of existing just on the surface, just kind of happy on the surface, just discussing what you see on the surface.
00:31:15
Speaker
But then there'll be those times that you need it to be something else and you will go to that raw place, that vulnerable place, but you will be held there and you'll be made to feel safe there and that it's okay to be there and talk about being there and what it's like to be there. And that's where you will get the benefit from it. And you will know that when you are in the world and you're feeling like this, you're safe. It's okay. And you're okay to go through it again.
00:31:44
Speaker
You know, I think a lot of people if they're doing it in isolation, if these things come up and they, you know, that, that's really highly emotional charge that comes through and letting that emotion out. If they, if they are on their own, they're doing it in isolation, but there's no, there's no connection with somebody in that. There's no being seen in that. There's no being able to share that. It's just that isolated experience.
00:32:09
Speaker
And if you didn't get that connection with somebody who, you know, yeah, hold that space for you, do it non-judgmentally, and then actually help you figure out what you're feeling, how this came about, what it's, you know, there has a triggered stuff in the past and that's why it's so intense now. There's so much richness that can be, you know, in that space. But yeah, it's not, that's not every session, you know, some sessions you're going in, this Becker tipped my car and I'm raging about it. And you go into that and that's fine.
00:32:38
Speaker
There are times when, and again, this is the life piece of going, most of the times are taken along and things are relatively okay. And then something happens out of the blue and you're like, whoa, what the hell is this? How do I, what is this? How do I do this?
00:32:58
Speaker
That's what therapy is. When you're in it and you have that relationship, you can't go into your first session and go, the most upsetting thing has happened to me today. And it reminds me of the most upsetting thing that happened to me in my childhood. Can I talk about it with you?
00:33:13
Speaker
Yeah, the therapist is like, yeah, sure, but you don't know me. Don't trust me. It's going to be very vulnerable. You're going to have such a vulnerability hangover if you do this because you don't know what I like with it. So being in therapy, not long-term, but enough of an experience, even out of therapy to know this is the, this is how it rolls. This is how it goes. And if stuff happens and the hard stuff happens when you're in therapy, you know your health.
00:33:39
Speaker
I think as well, it's kind of important, I think maybe at this point, just to frame what the difference is between counseling and what the difference is between psychotherapy.
Counseling vs. Psychotherapy
00:33:48
Speaker
Gosh, we're getting into, you know, the therapists are going to come after us for this one. Do you think? Well, for me. Sometimes it's a hot topic. It is a hot topic. When there's counselors and psychotherapists, like even my training, it's, you know, counseling and psychotherapy.
00:34:05
Speaker
So, okay, I'll ask you, Clodagh, what is the difference between counselling and psychotherapy? Depends on who you talk to. Okay, so the general... Sorry, go on, you're actually going to answer. I'm going to go in, I'm going to answer. Yeah, you do. Go for it. So the general thought is, so counselling is, I have a problem, I want to come in and solve this problem and then I'll end therapy. So once I have the problem solved, then I'll walk away. That's all I wanted. That's all, you know, maybe it's anxiety, you know, maybe it's that I want to do a job and I don't know how to do it.
00:34:35
Speaker
And, or I want to leave the relationship and I don't know how to do it. And as soon as that thing is done, that's it. It's over. Psychotherapy is more long-term. Psychotherapy is the whole life story. If you want to say, you go back and forth between the present and the past and see how the past is influencing the present. And it's more in depth. It's more, you know, it is the present stuff as in it is that leaving the relationship piece. It is that.
00:35:02
Speaker
relationship piece if there's something going on. Sorry folks, there's a lot of noise for AM, I apologize. Oh, clothes has been triggered. I know. And now I've lost my train of thought. Jesus, it doesn't take a lot for me. No, it was the psychotherapy and you know, the kind of long term. Yeah, that's where you get into the
00:35:23
Speaker
psychodynamic kind of work. So if you want to say that, and you know, just say speaking of relationships, now I do a lot of trauma work. So that is more of the long term stuff, you know, if you have, you know, a lot of symptoms, PTSD or anything like that, you're going, you know, you're going to do in-depth
00:35:40
Speaker
work on that but an easy example of that would be so I keep having the same relationships the same thing keeps happening in relationships and I don't know why and it's like okay well let's go back over to the relationships and you know I would probably get the family history as well and see if there's any dynamics that are being repeated and because we learn our love map from when we were kids you know how do we know what a relationship looks like
00:36:08
Speaker
We only know by the experience of what's around us. So what did we learn? What did we, maybe it was a good relationship, but we internalized something and made a rule out of it or made an understanding of it with kid brain. And we need the adult night to go back and go, actually, hold on. That wasn't true in the first place. And I've been living my relationship as if it was true. So obviously that is a long term, you know, really digging deep and pulling out the threads. So that is my.
00:36:37
Speaker
understanding of what counseling and psychotherapy is. Yeah, that would be my kind of understanding of as well, counseling kind of more short term, and then psychotherapy kind of more the long term. But I get how you're saying it's a bit of a it's a bit of a touchy subject. There would always be the recommendation that if you're going to enter into counseling, or psychotherapy are one of the same, you you'd give it at least maybe the six sessions or, you know, to kind of to give yourself at least that it's an investment in yourself. I think therapy is
00:37:07
Speaker
the best way to get to know yourself. I think everyone should just take a bit of time to really get to know yourself. We're not biased at all. Without any of the expectation, without any of the social media, without any trying to make other people happy, who are you in here? Who are you in here? How do you want to be out there?
00:37:37
Speaker
And I think that's why I think therapy is a great way to get to know yourself. Yeah, no, it is 100% agree with that. And, you know, if you're, if you're not as well, and therapists will love this as well, give them feedback. If you're not feeling something, say it, you know, I didn't really, I didn't really understand like last week's session was a bit nothing. Like what was going on? You know, is this how it's supposed to be? Or, you know, you said something last week and it really upset me. You know, you said this, you know, can we talk about this?
00:38:07
Speaker
absolutely bring that stuff up. And if a therapist is getting defensive and pushing back and giving at you or anything like that, leave. That's their shit. That's their shit. That's their shit. Countertransference. What would you want to tell people about transference and countertransference?
00:38:30
Speaker
Oh, we can't be that podcast. We can't be that. But another point on countertransference, this is basically like, you know, when somebody brings it like as a therapist, people bring stuff to sessions and it is, it is that raw, it is that emotional, it is that real honest piece. And sometimes it's bloody heartbreaking. And we are humans too. So, you know, you, I will say you had just mentioned, you know, sometimes countertransference with someone, you know, this bad word, you should
00:38:59
Speaker
You shouldn't have it, you shouldn't do it, you should be aware of it and all this other stuff. But when somebody, when you've worked with somebody for so long, you have that relationship with, you know, client purpose, it's strong and the bond is strong that you're, you know, have that space for that vulnerability. And they tell you something that's heartbreaking or as, you know, life is happening, something terrible happens. You are heartbroken for them because you're human.
00:39:25
Speaker
So that's countertransference, that I can be terribly sad in a session with somebody, but I will tell them that. Should we frame it though? Should we frame firstly what transference is, and then what countertransference is? Yeah, go for it. It's like we're giving away, you know that magician that gives away all the magician secrets. It's like we're giving away all the terribly secrets, yeah. But do you want to frame it? Always reference it anyway, it's fine.
00:39:50
Speaker
Do I want to frame it? So transference is, so if you are, gosh, I haven't thought about a definition of transference. They're very ambiguous. They're very ambiguous notions and they're kind of, they're, they're actually seem to be a little bit outdated. My example of it would be like, you know, somebody coming in and seeing me as like this.
00:40:15
Speaker
authoritative figure and, you know, a father figure, you know, and then they treat me. Yes, exactly. So they're transferring that persona on to me and expect to me to be that person. And then when I'm not, that's really jarring. It's like this, this sort of little battle comes on until they trust that I'm not that person or
00:40:38
Speaker
Like that's great work. You're like, well, you know, where did, where did you come up? You know, against that before, you know, who does that remind you of? And then how was that, you know, is that person in your life? Was that, you know, domineering and hard or cruel or unkind, whatever it is.
00:40:55
Speaker
And you're like, okay, you know, for us, that's harder. That's, you know, that's part of the work, but that is transference from a client onto the counselor. You remind me of this person and it is playing out in our relationship as a client therapist. I'm laughing. I don't mean to laugh, but it's just... You're laughing at me? I struggled with transference and... I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing at you. Yeah, yeah.
00:41:19
Speaker
I like, so the, listen, I'll put it out there. Disclaimer. This is just my mad brain coming up with this, but this is the way I understood it and the way I remembered it. So transference is the client's shit and counter transference is the therapist's shit. Brilliant. Yeah. That's the way to simplify it. It's yeah, that's, that's the way, and that's probably better where to draw the line. Yeah, I love it. So, okay.
00:41:47
Speaker
You asked me my experience of personal therapy and that's how this all started. Yes. Some age ago. Yeah. So I suppose, can I ask you the same question? Would you like to share that? Yes, I can. So my mind was, I kind of think I was in my early twenties as well. And yeah, my first therapist was, was a person centered. Like, you know, I've been to a few therapists as well, you know, just before I even started training and then
00:42:16
Speaker
during training. So I've gone through a different, different types of therapy as well. So person centered first. And that was for me, the person was lovely, absolutely lovely. But the problem was, there was a sort of a dual relationship in that they knew my parents and actually had yet. And of course, I went into that going, you know, my parents wanted me to see somebody and they were like, we recommend this person and I kind of knew of them. And I was like, Okay, I kind of feel like yet short
00:42:46
Speaker
But then I didn't talk to them. I didn't tell them what was going on because what if they went back and said something, you know, because they knew them, because they never would, but I didn't, I couldn't trust that. And I wanted them obviously to, you know, well, I can't tell them that because they know my parents. What if they, again, this is very juvenile, very, you know, I was very young, even emotionally to even think about it. Now I would fly in fact, like I just say what I would say, but
00:43:14
Speaker
At that time, it wasn't right. They were lovely. They were qualified. It was good, but having them know people in my life restricted me from saying things that I needed to say because
00:43:28
Speaker
What if this was said back? So that was one of my first experiences. I got, you know, good benefit out of it, the stuff that I needed to and felt like I was able to talk about. I was able to talk about and got relief from that. I also did CBT and I think like you, I don't know whether I finished the six sessions. It was definitely from the start of going, you know, it was very structured. I knew what I had to talk about. You know, I was more aware then at that time.
00:43:56
Speaker
and I wanted to talk about something specific and that was the conversation piece. Now I didn't understand it then, I understand that now it's outside of grief but at the time it was like okay and what do you think about that? What are your negative thoughts about that? I was like I don't know can we talk about it and figure it out? And it was like no but what do you think you know when you have this feeling what do you think? And I was like
00:44:22
Speaker
It was really jarring. There was no connection in it. I found it really hard. Now, do I use CBT in some of the work I've done? I have trained in it, or I've done a module and I'm not a CBP therapist or anything like that, but I do find it's good to, you know, one eight, one eight.
00:44:38
Speaker
you know, no client who I hear, you know, okay, you keep coming up with the same kind of story, can we challenge that a little bit. And so even in that experience of the amount of therapy I did at that time with the CBP therapist, I did learn to challenge things, you know, and one of the basic
00:44:59
Speaker
tenants of CBG parity, what I learned was not all thoughts were true. So at that time, didn't really know myself. If I was having, you know, negative thoughts, negative automatic thoughts, they called them nuts. If I had all these little nuts flying around my head, I was like, I'm such a terrible person. You'd have an itchy head. I had a very itchy head back then.
00:45:24
Speaker
And that was powerful for me going, okay, not all thoughts are true. You know, that's our brain. Our brain's job is to think and lots of stuff will fly into our brain. And it doesn't mean that I'm thinking about doing it, wanting to do it, or, you know, it's just a thought and it's not, you know. So that was really helpful. Then, what do I do after that later years? It was more trauma therapy. And that I found much better, much more serious.
00:45:53
Speaker
But at the same time, I was still quite young. I was still emotionally immature. I didn't understand what I was going through in terms of that trauma aspect.
00:46:06
Speaker
And I found it very difficult and I wasn't, again, I wasn't telling the therapist how I was feeling in terms of the actual therapy. You know, we were talking about really hard stuff and I was struggling with that outside of the therapy sessions because it was really shaking my life. It was shaking the snow globe as it were.
00:46:27
Speaker
And in between sessions, I was finding it so difficult, but I was like, Oh, well, this is just how therapy is. This is how it's supposed to go. And what I needed to be saying was this is too much. This is really overwhelming. And so that was difficult for a while. And then I found a really good therapist.
Eye Movement Desensitization Benefits
00:46:45
Speaker
And I actually started doing, another type of therapy I started doing was EMD or therapy, which was really helpful. Which really- I've heard of this. Obviously I've heard of this. But I was like, Ooh, I knew this. Emotion, what is this? Eye movement, desensitization and processing. It sounds very futuristic. Is that, that's not the tapping, is it?
00:47:08
Speaker
It can be tapping, it can be eye movement and left and right. It can be, they call it the butterfly hug. So you won't see this because I'm putting my hands across my chest. My right hand is on my left shoulder and my left hand is on my right shoulder. And it's kind of like a butterfly. It looks like I can tap left and right.
00:47:29
Speaker
and as I'm processing an emotion, whatever, that does the bilateral stimulation. So it gets both sides of the brain working on the processing of the issue as you're going through. I think that speaks to what therapy can be as well and what it kind of maybe boils down to a little bit, like emotional self-regulation and just being able to regulate, I suppose, what we're going through, what we're experiencing, what we're feeling. I think it's about
00:47:58
Speaker
regulation self-regulation because of course and actually when you're with a therapist in a room it's automatically co-regulation co-regulation yeah but then i think what happens in that space you're co-regulating but then you go out into the world and you start self-regulating so it kind of kicks in the kind of the motor of self-regulation i think so sorry that's just what came up for me there as i rudely interrupts you yeah no no that's beautiful because it is we do like if you don't have
00:48:28
Speaker
Again, a healthy example of what regulation is, that's what you're regulating with. So their dysregulation is regulating you, if that makes sense. And if you go into adulthood and you are trying to regulate yourself for getting, you know, you have all these sorts of feelings and you feel overwhelmed and there's, you know, life is happening all the time, but you don't know how to regulate that because you've not been taught of it or you've not been taught enough maybe.
00:48:56
Speaker
and having a healthy example of that through therapy and even furthermore looking at coping skills, looking at how to regulate the body, actually how to regulate the body, not just this it's a therapeutic idea of oh yeah we'll all just be crammed and you know and sit like the Buddha and hum we'll be
Learning Emotional Self-Regulation
00:49:14
Speaker
fine.
00:49:14
Speaker
Actually, humming is a great regulator. I sing a lot. Like I just think it's mad. Your vagal tone. So when you hum, when you sing, so like if you think about, you know, we've talked, touched on, I think, on another podcast, another episode, sorry, about the nervous system. And so there's the parasympathetic nervous system, and there's the sympathetic nervous system. And if you just think of them, one is the gas pedal.
00:49:41
Speaker
So for all our cortisol and adrenaline and stress hormones. And then the other one is the break. It is the calm, it is the cool, it is the relax, digest, all of that. That's the dopamine, isn't it? Dopamine. It's dopamine calm. Dopamine is kind of, you get a hit of dopamine, so you get high, you get happy hormones or whatever. Yeah, but I think it's calming.
00:50:07
Speaker
Dopamine, is it? Yeah, what it would be. For some, yeah, yeah, yeah. I only say this because, as a sex religion, the orgasm would release dopamine. Ah, okay. Of course. And I know I always want to sleep, so it relaxes me.
00:50:25
Speaker
Okay folks, we are going to have an episode of Talking All About Sex because you know that's where anyone has to go. I've lost my train of thought again, what was I talking about? Sorry, we were talking about the parasympathetic nervous system and the sympathetic nervous system. Why was I talking about that?
00:50:41
Speaker
one is the brake and one is the gas oh yeah that's how we know how yeah so we know what if you know what presses your gas pedal you know that you know your your system is a little bit dysregulated and you're a bit overwhelmed maybe at times but you now know maybe in therapy you've learned this and you're going to learn here
00:50:59
Speaker
If you hum or you sing, or even if you beat your chest in a rhythmic motion, that sets off the calm, that sets off the break. So here you learned it first. So I'm sure those people know that already, but that is how you regulate yourself. But therapy can do that. Therapy can teach you. This is how I can regulate. This is how I can manage those big overwhelms, those big emotions, those, and even be able to name. This is what's happening for me. Hmm.
00:51:27
Speaker
I see you're Googling something. I'm trying to Google dopamine. Yeah, it's a neurotransmitter. Dopamine is involved in movement, memory, pleasurable reward and motivation, behaviour and cognition, attention, sleep and arousal, mood, learning and lactation. OK, so there's a lot going on there, right?
00:51:57
Speaker
It plays a small role in the fight-or-flight syndrome. The fight-or-flight response... Oh, dopamine also causes blood vessels to relax. Okay, so we do want dopamine. Yeah, reduces insulin production of pancreas. How does dopamine make someone feel happy? Dopamine is known as the feel-good hormone. It gives a sense of pleasure. It also gives you the motivation to do something when you're feeling pleasure. Okay.
00:52:27
Speaker
So dopamine is part of your reward system. Okay. My God. Okay. We'll take that. We'll take more of that. You can cut all that out if you want. I was just interested to kind of actually frame dopamine because that's what I, yeah. Well, the ADHD, there's a lot of dopamine kind of induced activities, isn't there? Yeah. But I suppose these, these chemicals and these substances, they play so many roles in our bodies and in our brain. It's fascinating this being human thing.
00:52:57
Speaker
Yeah, it's just typical me that I've associated with the orgasmic part of it. The role of plays in orgasm. Let me give you a whole episode of orgasms. No, no, no. So yes, sorry, we were talking about talk therapy. We talked about a few modalities. What are your thoughts on existential psychotherapy?
00:53:18
Speaker
Oh, I enjoyed studying that. And I do, you know, I think everybody goes through that existential crisis of, you know, what is the meaning of my life? Who am I? And all that sort of stuff. And it's such a, again, so normal human. And so the big questions, is that what you're talking about? Existential therapy. Yeah, because I suppose this, I've come across this and I would be very existential myself in my own personal therapy. Yeah.
00:53:48
Speaker
looking beyond just myself and the bigger picture and what's my purpose? What's the meaning of life? What's the point of it all? And a very good book I recommend to everyone is Man's Search for
Book Recommendation for Therapy Insight
00:54:03
Speaker
Meaning. I know it's a very gendered kind of title, but it's of its time, but it's an amazing book. You could read it in like two hours.
00:54:13
Speaker
go back to that quite regularly. You know, it needs once a year and just to touch up on it because yeah, yeah, I second that book if you can. And Victor Franklin will not be able to search for meaning. There you go. Yeah, you won't regret it.
00:54:28
Speaker
Yeah, I like it. I would probably be like you, not so much, I don't think, about the bigger picture, the big questions. I probably would actually, maybe I am, because I love having those conversations. I love those deep, let's look at the world questions. I have a question for you, right, stemming from we are queer and we are here, we're here and we're queer. Do you believe queer individuals
00:54:54
Speaker
that are not kind of going the normal heteronormative blueprint, like path in life, are more likely to come up with existential crises because they don't know their purpose, they don't know their meaning, and they're struggling to find, do you think they'd struggle to find that more? Probably, yeah, because what's the roadmap? It's kind of like what we weren't talking about in this episode, we're talking about in another episode of Going. And the thought is,
00:55:23
Speaker
What is my role in life if it's not this, you know, what's my purpose? What's my drive? What's my purpose? What's going to give me a sense of meaning? And you know, what's going to make me purposeful, make me fulfilled? What is it I like? What is it I want? And if I don't see images of that or examples of that, again, in the queer community, there's less representation.
00:55:51
Speaker
I'm seeing that less and less. The chances of me finding me in the world is less. So I am going to go, what the heck is the point? What is it I'm doing? So probably yes, I would say. What is your answer? Yeah, I think very much so. I think sometimes it's very easy in life to not question things. It's easier not to question things. It's easier not to challenge things. It's easier just to go with
00:56:21
Speaker
Let's follow, let's just be lemmings. Lemmings going off the side of the cliff. Let's just all follow each other into oblivion and see what happens. Well we all know what happens. Everything, everyone, everywhere ends.
00:56:37
Speaker
And on that note, we'll finish the podcast. Everything ends. Good luck. Bye. No, I think, you know what, I think there's a great you in that. There's a great, okay, well, what is your answer? You know what I mean? You don't want a therapist's answer. You want your answer. And that's what therapy is about. It's about going.
00:56:58
Speaker
I kind of think this and I kind of feel that and when I say this this kind of makes me feel this and you know again the threads the rabbit hole going following it wherever it needs to go and you start to just unfold who you are bit by bit by answering these questions or you know exploring what it is you know different things in the world whatever they may be and I think existential therapy is a great one I've never gone to
00:57:23
Speaker
an existential therapist who's like just pure, I suppose, if you want to say, but definitely it comes into probably every type of therapy I've ever done. The question will come in, the big question I'm going, what is the point of it all? I'm not in a, not in a suicidal way behind me as in, you know, am I doing life right? You know, sometimes you can get it really, you know, you want to do,
00:57:48
Speaker
I want to do what I've been put on the planet for whatever that is now. And I know it's very random. There is no, you know, you make the purpose, but I want to make my purpose. I want to, I want to live intentionally, but I first have to know what my intention is. And that has to be my intention true to me. So there comes in the big questions regardless of if you want them or not. Then you have to ask yourself, does any of it even really matter? Yeah.
00:58:28
Speaker
No, of course, it matters. It has to matter. It has to matter. There's so... Do you know what? The world can be, yes, a trying, difficult place, but there's also such beauty in the world.
Faith in Human Resilience
00:58:45
Speaker
Like, do you remember that film years ago, American Beauty?
00:58:49
Speaker
And, Oh, I haven't watched that in a million years. Oh my God, it was amazing. But I loved that the bag, the bag just floating, that plastic bag blowing in the breeze. And I have like, what's that on the top? It's just like, sometimes there's so much beauty in the world. I just feel like my heart could explode. There is such beauty in the world and it is just kind of recognizing that as well, outside of all the chaos and everything else going on.
00:59:16
Speaker
You know, a lot of people would say, you know, their faith gets them true. And I don't have a, if you want to say a religious faith, what I do, what has always gotten me through is my faith in people. That's what I'm saying. Let's put our faith in each other. And I think the world would be a much better place. Who's living in a utopia? Listen, I told you, I'm quite optimistic. I'm just, there's a practical side of me as well. That's just a bit like, you know.
00:59:42
Speaker
Just verify, you know, you're going to put, you know, people are amazing. People have, they're capable of so much love and so much just, oh, they're just amazing. You know, things that people go through and who they are and how they come out of it at the end of it. There's more good than there is bad. I know that for sure. I think you're amazing. I think you're amazing. Everybody listening. You're amazing.
01:00:11
Speaker
We are delighted you're here today. This is about us! I need the validation! I need it! Marsha, Marsha, Marsha! No, yes, everyone is amazing. Yeah, yeah, I think that's... I think that might be a good way to end it, because yeah, therapy is good, and you're good, and go do therapy and be even better. Yeah, I know it was on a serious note. Do, like,
01:00:39
Speaker
do link into any supports that are there locally around you. I mean, there are benefits. It might not be for you, but the GP is always there. I mean, we can all get to those. There's a tech service as well, the crisis techs line, and you don't have to be in crisis, obviously, but you can. There's so many things right there. So many supports. I'll put some links in the show notes as well of any supports that are right that we can link you in.
01:01:06
Speaker
But to anyone who has kind of made it this far and has listened to us for this long, I think you're doing pretty okay in life. I mean, if you're able to regulate yourself for the last hour with us, you're doing okay. Yay! Thank you for listening. Thanks, everyone.
01:01:28
Speaker
Yeah. Okay folks, we will see you in the next episode. Have a good time. And yeah, leave us any questions or get in touch. We'll have the emails or the social media page. If you want to ask us anything or if you have topics you want us to talk about, please do share them with us. Okay. Until next time. Bye. Bye.