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Plainly Erotically and Relationally Queer
61 Plays1 year ago
Welcome to the penultimate episode of The Plainly Queer Podcast, season one!
Ever wondered what it's like being a queer therapist navigating the diverse and intricate landscape of gender, sex, and relationships?
In this episode, we dive deep into these topics. Join us as Paul O'Beirne takes the hot seat. Paul, a budding sex and relationship therapist, offers a unique perspective on training and working with clients who identify as LGBTQIA+ and who have diverse and complex sexual and relational needs and the rewards of being a queer therapist in this field.
Paul is the founder of UdoU Therapy, a counselling and psychotherapy service that offers online and face-to-face sessions for individuals and couples. He is a pre-accredited member of the IACP Irish Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy and a student member of the COSRT College of Sexual and Relationship Therapists.
You can follow him on Instagram [@udou_therapy] or email him at udoutherapy@gmail.com.
We hope you enjoy this episode and find it informative. If you have any feedback, questions or comments, please get in touch with us at PlainlyQueer@gmail.com.
And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!
Resources
- Relationally Queer: A Pink Therapy Guide for Practitioners - co-edited by Silva Neves and Dominic Davies
- Erotically Queer: A Pink Therapy Guide for Practitioners - co-edited by Silva Neves and Dominic Davies
These books are essential resources for anyone interested in gender, sex and relationship diversity.
Recommended
Transcript
Podcast Break Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome everybody to the Plainly Queer podcast and welcome to the penultimate episode of this season. We are going to be going on a little break until the new year.
00:00:12
Speaker
we're going on strike yeah for better conditions yeah we're like the writers in hollywood we're going on strike solidarity exactly we have no association but we're going to jump on that bandwagon and listen until we get more listeners and advertisers to pay for our lavish
00:00:30
Speaker
queer lifestyles. It's just, yeah, we're on strike. It's just the way it's going to have to be. Yeah. So
Travel Tales: Lavish Spain and Cultural Festivals
00:00:35
Speaker
you'll have to tune in to our last episode to see how that's going to go for us. Are not after what I've just said. We're the cancels. Exactly. Now there is no lavish queer lifestyles here. We're very still mostly plainly queer.
00:00:51
Speaker
Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say I, I would normally agree with you that my lifestyle is not lavish, but the latest, my latest like last few weeks have been very lavish esque.
00:01:04
Speaker
Are you living a bougie lifestyle? Sort of, yeah. Like it's one of those things where you're in it and you're like, Oh, I didn't plan that, but I'm not going to ignore it. And so, I mean, I've been in Spain the last few weeks and where I'd been staying, the place I landed in and they had a, like a cultural festival going on, like a four day cultural festival with like an opening ceremony with fireworks that were just bloody amazing. A closing ceremony again, but more fireworks that actually set a fire.
00:01:34
Speaker
and luckily enough they were prepared for it because obviously the place is like tinder dry and like there was this big huge uproar at the end of the ceremony and it was because there was a fire off to the left of where the fireworks were set and loads of people came running out of nowhere with like stuff to put it out and I think cheer again when they put it out I was like I'm not sure in the middle of like a drought of where we were seeing as well that that's probably the best idea having like
00:02:03
Speaker
No word of a lie, 11 minutes. I pressed
Queer Visibility and Cultural Differences
00:02:05
Speaker
record, recording the show and it was 11 minutes of full on fireworks for the closing show. It was quite amazing. But yeah, my last, when I arrived, it was four days of concerts, four days of art, four days of food. There was a tapas tour of this village I'm staying in.
00:02:26
Speaker
followed by three months of forest fires. Oh, what caused this? I know. It's like one of those things where you read in like America, they're like, we were doing a gender reveal party and like we thought everything was fine. So they set up a load of fireworks in the middle of a forest and like nothing could go wrong. They had it organized. They had people specifically for, if the place goes on fire, go put it out. So firemen.
00:02:52
Speaker
I, well, I don't, I couldn't see them, but there was loads of fire people. Yeah. So that, I would say that's pretty bougie. I would say that's pretty lavish. Now it was three, like the festival is called the tree culture. It's festival, right? And it's the, uh, Arab Islamic, shepardic Jewish and Christian culture. So I'm not going to say there was a whole lot of the LGBTQ community there. There was one.
00:03:19
Speaker
a couple that I saw walking down one of the streets holding hands two guys and I was like oh and then I was like oh please mind yourself just a heads up though just a part of the muslim tradition would be male friends hold hands so that could also have been they were english
00:03:37
Speaker
Oh, okay. I went to, I visited Istanbul with one of my exes and the two of us were just frolicking around Istanbul holding hands because it's part of their culture. It's part of their culture, why? I was quite tanned at the time, so we passed, I suppose, as being from that region. There you go.
00:03:58
Speaker
Yeah. I did not know that. Yeah, they'd hold hands. The men in Muslim religions and stuff like that, Arabic countries would hold hands. I love that. That's really nice. So what's going on with you? There's my bougie and queer lifestyle. I just have a picture, like that's bougie. It's like, it's like you were traveling on an airplane in economy, but you disembarked and you had to walk through business and you got a sense of what it was, but just for like two seconds.
00:04:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's something on the other side. Yeah, you've seen an unopened immunity kit from business class and you just like took it on your way out of the plane. Yeah, I'm going to go like escape this all the way again. Yeah. Did I make the most of it? Yeah. Yeah. I know I'm good. So I suppose what's your, I suppose before you come off that you're living your new sense of bougie, artistic, Renaissance life in this Spanish hillside. Yeah. So what's your overall feeling?
00:04:55
Speaker
Oh, I love it. I love it. I've gotten a place here and I'm never leaving. So yeah, it's really, really nice. I can't, yeah. Somewhere to visit, I suppose. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Next episode, maybe we'll record from here. Well, next year we'll record from here. We'll do whole episodes on, I don't know, queer lifestyle in, in Frijalani and see what it's like. Yeah. Let's see how the wifi is for that.
00:05:21
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, I'm really, I really like it here. It's really, if you can imagine the Greek towns where it's like painted white and the blue and that it's very similar to that being in the now obviously Spanish style, but in luck, it's those white villages. So it's really, really nice. Yeah.
00:05:37
Speaker
Oh, I'd highly recommend it. Really nice. And if you can go to that festival thing, that was like, that was just such fun. I'm dancing in the streets. Everybody was like having whatever culture, cultural dancing and expression with your body. Every now and then you'd be walking through a street and somebody would start dancing and music would play up and they'd just start walking down the street or dancing down the street, which was really cool. So it spoiled me for the rest of the year because they don't have any other festivals and they pulled me in and I was like, okay, I'm never leaving.
00:06:07
Speaker
There's nothing else to do for the rest of the year.
Travel Mishaps and Friend Surprises
00:06:11
Speaker
I made a mistake. Putting your hair out. What's there to do around here? Go to the beach. Is the beach near? It's about 10-15 minutes. That's not too bad. Yeah, it's doable. You can see it from the village. You can see the sea from the village. Nice. You've got that fresh sea breeze. Possibly, yeah.
00:06:34
Speaker
I also had a taste of the Spanish. I went down to Lanzarote, the bougie lifestyle down in Lanzarote. It was only for four nights and there was absolutely no culture experience whatsoever. What was your experience?
00:06:52
Speaker
Oh, I literally, two friends were down there for a week. So I said, I actually surprised them on the flight because they were like, come down for a few nights and you have a few days off. And I was like, him and then Han. And then I was like, I haven't had a proper summer holiday. So I'll head down and so I surprised them on the flight. And that was great. They didn't know you were on the flight. No, no. It's actually such a funny story, right?
00:07:16
Speaker
So I am all like mission impossible incognito at the airport trying to get through undetected without them seeing me. And so I got through security, found out what gate I was going. I knew they'd be in the pub having a couple of pre-flight drinks. So I avoided that area and went down and found the dingiest, most random place to wait in the airport. So obviously I found a corner, dark corner of this place, and it was over by the toilets. I was like- You in a dark corner? By the toilets.
00:07:47
Speaker
Anyway, so I was like, they won't see me here. So I was sitting in the corner, grand, mind my own business. I had the Starbucks Frappuccino enjoying life, saying, this is going to be a great surprise when I get on the plane and whatever. And the next minute, the two of them walk out of the dingy toilets. Oh, no. Yeah, I obviously missed them going in, and they came out. And the first one didn't clock me, so Emma didn't clock me. And then put Elaine behind, like,
00:08:16
Speaker
looked me in the eye for a second and then looked away.
00:08:20
Speaker
And then looks again. Her brain was like, is this suddenly? Her brain was protesting what was going on. And I tried to duck down behind my suitcase, but I nearly fell off the seat. So then I was like, no, I'm made now. Because Emma just kept walking. And Elaine had that second of like, that's you. Oh my god, that's you. But I went, shush, shush, shush, let's have a surprise. So we said this all non-verbally to each other. Yeah, yeah. So she kept to herself. And I still got to surprise one of them.
00:08:48
Speaker
Yeah, no matter what. Like the most random place and they still found me, but I did well up to then. But yeah, sorry. Yeah, that's really cool. It was a great few days. You can never plan things. You can never plan nice things because it never goes to plan. And then the flight was delayed an hour and then, sure, I, because I was going to surprise her on the plane, but then they announced the hour today and I was like, I need a drink. So I said, let's just surprise her at the gate so we can have a couple of glasses of Prosecco.
00:09:16
Speaker
So, no, it was a lovely time. Weather was lovely and everything like that, so yeah, listen, Lanzo is... Did you get up to anything? No, just nights out, done a little bit of bingo, a couple of drinks, nice dinners and just spoiling yourself. Beach during the day, the beach was lovely by the pool, the resort was, listen, it wasn't anything amazing, but
00:09:39
Speaker
We had to actually move out of the first room because the toilet clogged on the second day. It was disgusting. It came up through the bath. It was like, do you ever see the in-betweeners movie where they're in that kind of, yeah. Now listen, they gave us an awful room to start with. And yeah, it just got worse. So they moved just to a nicer room after the second night when the incident happened. But the rest of the time was lovely.
00:10:09
Speaker
But that's typical package holiday type thing. You
The Reality of Family Holidays
00:10:13
Speaker
get what you're given. It's just a room to lay your head down. Yeah, exactly. But the pool area was nice. And like that with last night, we did a drag show, drag cab ratings. That was really good fun. So yeah, it's just about being not at home, I suppose, but still not being too out of your comfort zone. So yeah, it was nice. It's nice you were able to go with your friends as well.
00:10:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's just about reconnecting as well and having a bit of crack. Yeah, it was nice. But then you get home and sometimes you're even more exhausted when you get home from these things. That's a freaking loopy. You need a holiday to recover from your holiday. Yeah. And then your God, is there any point in, why do you go on a holiday? I don't know how people do with families. You know, it's kind of. That's not a holiday for parents. That is not a holiday for parents. It's a holiday for the kids and nobody else. I think it's always though, like you think it's going to be something different. Like you. You hope.
00:11:03
Speaker
Yeah, you're hoping that it's going to be this relaxing Zen experience, but like in relation to flights and everything that's going on these days, your delays, your cancellations, your wildfires, your volcanoes erupting, your global pandemics.
00:11:20
Speaker
I mean, you throw all that shit into the mix and it's an anxiety overload. It's a tough life travelling, isn't it? It's really, really tough to travel these days. Like, who would want to do that? But we still do it. We still do it because we want that sense of just something different, I suppose, and that little bit of excitement to be somewhere different in the world is always nice. That is true. And it's the sun. Yeah, it was quite sunny here as well. I burnt to bits.
00:11:48
Speaker
And I was wearing Factor 50, I was lashing it on like, and I still burnt. How long do you sit out in the sun? Would you sit out all day? No, I'd only do a few hours and I'd need to be in the pool like the majority of time. I can do maybe 20 party minutes. Yeah, I can't do direct sunlight. That's too intense. I do the nice shade or something like that. But no, it was a pleasant experience. I enjoyed it.
00:12:13
Speaker
We are in the second to last episode and one more episode and then you'll say goodbye to us for a few months till next year. How will they cope? How will they cope? How will you cope? I'm sensing people will cope pretty okay. I think they'll be all right. I think they'll be okay without us.
00:12:32
Speaker
Will we be all
Reflecting on the Podcast Season
00:12:33
Speaker
right? It's like when therapy comes to an end, you have a sense that you've found, you started therapy and then you get this sense that you've found within yourself that thing that you were looking for when you went to therapy. So you no longer need therapy. So maybe that's what, well, and then after a three month break, you realize, oh no, I need to go back to therapy. I actually do need therapy. So that's where season two will come in very handy.
00:13:00
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. We'll be ready for you when you're ready. Exactly. We are always here for you. Except for the next three or so ever, how many months of it. Yes, penultimate episode. It's sad face. We'll do the last episode. We'll get our lives together, basically. I say that every year, but like every week, but like anyway. It's like, can we put into practice everything we've explored in this series? Like, can we- The last episodes, what did we learn from this season?
00:13:29
Speaker
Yeah, what do we want to carry forward? I still feel like I'm a mess. Does anybody not feel like they're a mess? Genuine question, like everybody's just like, I'm looking at the other people. They look like they have it all together. They know how to adult and I'm here going, what? How, how are we supposed to know all these things?
00:13:46
Speaker
Well, Cloda, memes on Instagram would inform me that no, in fact, people don't have it all together. Nobody has it all together. That's what the memes tell me on Instagram anyway, that I'm not alone. So memes don't lie. Nope, definitely not. They are zeitgeist. Is that the right word? The zeitgeist of what's going on in the world at the moment? That's a fancy word. Yeah, I don't even know if it's in the right context.
00:14:13
Speaker
Yeah. I'm not sure. Who's to know? Who's to know? I'll Google it after this, and if it's correct context, it'll stay in. If not, it's coming out. No, I think you should leave it in anyway. No one will know. What are we talking about today? I believe you are going to question me in relation to sex and relationship therapy.
00:14:35
Speaker
Yes. Yes, I am. Okay. So I have a few questions, so give me two seconds. Oh my God. This is amazing. I didn't actually, you went to the trouble of doing questions.
00:14:46
Speaker
I've done these questions probably over like at least five different times now. So, cause I also want to sound smart when I'm doing this. Of course. We are intellectual individuals, but something about me, and I always say this to people and I just, it's the way I operate. I love question. I love being asked questions and I feel comfortable being questioned as opposed to having an unstructured conversation, even though I do well in the unstructured conversations.
00:15:14
Speaker
You know of trolling an episode of like, we're just going to see where it takes us. We're just going to see where it takes us. And I'm like, please, Paul, please just give us a topic. Anything. I think the difference is when I'm the focus, I like to have the questions because it gives me direction and keeps me centered. So I think that's just me. Okay. So that's how I do on dates as well. If I remember on date.
00:15:38
Speaker
And I'm like, I'm one of these people that will like, what's your, let's, let's ask each other questions. So we'd ask questions back and forth to get to know each other. Like, I'm one of those people. That's called a didactic approach. Is it? Yeah. The didactic approach to therapy. Oh, sorry. What was your mother think of?
00:16:04
Speaker
Okay. Right.
Understanding Psychosexual Therapy
00:16:05
Speaker
We're talking about a sexual relationship therapy. So what exactly is sexual relationship therapy? And also how does it differ from the LGBT?
00:16:14
Speaker
QIA community, the Legipitiqua, or the eligibility community as it's now called these days. Did you hear that on? Yeah. Eligibility. Yeah. And somebody tried to say LGBTQIA and they went the eligibility community. I would like that. That's hilarious. And then somebody was just like stitching going, yeah, I'm eligible and eligible for everything. Go for it. It was like, okay.
00:16:39
Speaker
So what exactly is sex and relationship therapy? I suppose I am a fully qualified pre-accredited psychotherapist, but I decided to go on and specialise in sex and relationship therapy. So I am currently enrolled
00:16:57
Speaker
in my sexual relationship therapy training, and I've just started seeing psychosexual presentations in clinical practice, which is amazing. So yeah, I'm in that world now. I think at the start, I think we tried to do this episode before, but it was very much, I'd literally just started into the work. I think we were two, three weeks in.
00:17:16
Speaker
Yeah. So it was very now, listen, I'm not a fountain of knowledge now either, but I'm a little bit of a solid foundation that my interventions and the knowledge comes from, but it's a fascinating field. I have a question straight off. You are now getting psychosexual presentations. So like psychosexual clients, what are psychosexual presentations? What are psychosexual presentations? So I suppose psychosexual presentations are in relation to anything to do with
00:17:45
Speaker
the mind, psychosexual, and your sexual functioning, you as a sexual being. I mean, the regular counseling and psychotherapy. I don't know from your experience, my experience, I think, like I'd say the majority experience is that people don't bring their sexual selves into the space.
00:18:06
Speaker
And that's probably due to, especially I'd say in Ireland, due to sexual repression over the centuries and the decades and just sex being shamed and hidden. And so I think it's very much to bring the sexual self into the space. And then of course you're dealing with the biopsychosocial side of it, which is like your environment, your physical health and your mental health, because they all play a part. Yeah.
00:18:35
Speaker
That would be very comprehensive. Oh, very comprehensive. And it's very, in a way, practical. It's very tangible. It's very there. It's very present. These things can be seen, can be experienced. They're not elusive things like what's your goal in therapy. They're very, it's obtainable to understand your sexual self because we're all sexual beings. Very true. Very true.
00:18:59
Speaker
Can I ask then, okay, so I was going to ask what exactly sex and relationship therapy is, but also a part of that question was going to ask us, how does it differ for the LGBTQ QIA community? How does it differ? Well, I suppose, of course, obviously there are different issues faced.
00:19:18
Speaker
by the queer community in regards to shame, in regards to discrimination, oppression, the stigma out there, all this sort of stuff. So how does it differ? I don't want to separate the two. I don't want to alienate one from the other, the heteronormative from the queer. I mean, they are different. They are obviously different. But I think under the psychosexual umbrella, all the same issues are there fundamentally.
00:19:48
Speaker
So it's just how, again, the environment affects us, the physical self affects us and the mental self. So again, it goes back to the biopsychosocial. And I know how is it different for queer individuals. I would ask you the same question. How is psychotherapy and counseling different for queer individuals? It's the exact same reason, because there are minorities, because it's dealing with oppressed minorities and you have to be aware of those.
00:20:17
Speaker
intersectionality at the end of the day. It's the same therapy, but you're more as a therapist aware of intersectionality and what's going on there in relation to race, culture, religion, sexuality, gender, all that stuff. And for different individuals, it will intersect in different ways. I think it's all about intersection.
00:20:38
Speaker
Yeah, okay, so then my next question, and it depends on whether, because you just said you don't want to separate it out, but why is it important to seek out therapists who are queer affirming or knowledgeable about queer or trans-specific issues, especially when it comes to sexual relationship therapy?
The Need for Queer-Affirming Therapy
00:20:55
Speaker
I will give the reason I saw someone who's gone through the same experience. I think it puts someone at ease, I think, to know that you don't have to go into a space
00:21:08
Speaker
and explain yourself or to explain your existence or to have to educate someone about your existence or your experience as being the person you are. So I think for me, in engaging with a queer therapist or queer affirming therapist, it just puts me at ease that I don't have to explain the basics of what it is to be queer in this world.
00:21:36
Speaker
are what I've gone through as a queer individual because this person has a sense of that. So I can get straight to the issues, explain what my daily lived experience is as me, not as my sexuality. Okay, so what then is the difference between couples counselling and we call it intimate partner counselling? Why isn't that couples counselling?
00:21:59
Speaker
Well
Intimate Partner and Couples Counseling
00:21:59
Speaker
there are so many different types of relationships out there these days so it's important I suppose to move away from the more traditional couples relationship model and go towards a more an intimate partner model because some people
00:22:15
Speaker
maybe choose not to engage in monogamy and keep there remain solo individuals but like have multiple sexual partners so you have to really take into account those different dynamics that are going on out there and to give space to all of those experiences not just to monogamous couples because everyone regardless of their relationship status or like how they engage in
00:22:42
Speaker
romantic and sexual relationships. They all deserve a space if they're going through a period of distress or wanting to work through things. They all deserve space to talk through that and work through that and have their experience validated as well and normalized and to take the shame out of all this stuff as well.
Removing Shame in Sex Therapy
00:23:01
Speaker
That's a big thing in relation to psychosexual therapy and the queer community. It's taking the shame out of all of us and just de-shaming it, de-pathologizing it, and just taking it as like the human experience that the client is going through and just normalizing that.
00:23:18
Speaker
I love it the way you said the pathologizing it, because a lot of the queer community have been pathologizing it, especially when it comes to sex. There are sex addicts, there are perverted, there are all of these, or horrible. Why we need to move away from it is because individuals are realizing that there are other alternatives to monogamy in relation to consensual non-monogamy or open relationships. What is consensual non-monogamy?
00:23:47
Speaker
So
Consensual Non-Monogamy in Therapy
00:23:47
Speaker
consensual non-monogamy is when you're romantically involved with multiple people. So multiple individuals, but all individuals are aware of each other and all individuals consent to the relationship dynamic that is happening. Now these can take many forms. There's many different kinds of, I see it as energy. I like to see it as like there's sexual energy and romantic energy and these all go between one person and another and then one person to another person and
00:24:15
Speaker
Yeah, I like to see it that way. Just a flow between multiple people and multiple experiences. Just to be clear on this as well, we're not talking about everybody in the relationship getting together and having a hoodie or anything like that. Everybody has a separate relationship. Yeah, this isn't a sensate orgy. Although if you want to have an orgy, go for it, as long as it's very consensual.
00:24:41
Speaker
These are the dynamics that need to be talked about though. Isn't it going, if you want to have an orgy, okay, how do you have an orgy? Say, what is the dynamic within you that could come up that could be activated or triggered that might cause pain, might cause, or you realize might cause incredible joy, but are ashamed because it's not seen as okay between friends, family, whoever, or just society.
00:25:04
Speaker
So a couple who were thinking about this, they would possibly go to yourself and say, listen, this is where we're at. This is what we're thinking about doing, but we want to, we want to grind ourselves in this and make sure that both of us really understand as individuals, but as a couple what that means. So like it's, it's, it's coming to therapy to figure that out, a transition in our relationship.
00:25:25
Speaker
that would that is like an adult thing to do that is like the ultimate adult thing to do let's sit down and you don't even need to come to therapy to do it but listen therapy is a great place to do it because it's a neutral space yeah therapy is all it's this neutral space to sit down at the table let's talk through this what are your motivations for this
00:25:47
Speaker
And it's to ensure that the other individual knows that it's not saying that they're not good enough. It's not saying that they're not all that the other person needs. There's a risk that another individual will take it up in a way that I'm not good enough. So it's just ensuring that both individuals know that they are enough for each other, but they have so much more to offer. Yeah.
00:26:16
Speaker
And they can offer it to each other and they can offer it to other people as well. And why not open up that experience with others, but in a consensual way, in a way that is open on it and with good self-awareness and awareness of what's going on, how it's affecting. And because let's face it, like we all get jealous. We are all like, this one thing is mine. And if I share this thing with someone else,
00:26:43
Speaker
that person could take that something from me. There's all these things that play out, all these dynamics play out. So you really do have to be careful, but why not? I mean, break down what we, like, but then there's the other, I'm going to go down black hole. And there's the other thing that like, I'd be quite, I'd be quite okay in my own company. And like,
00:27:04
Speaker
a bit of a nomad or whatever like that. I'd like to think I'm okay on my own. But if you think about it, we've never been alone. Like as soon as we are born into this world, we immediately start to relate to our birth's person in relation to that nurturing relationship.
00:27:22
Speaker
That's instantaneous. That happens straight away in the majority of cases. And so we've never been alone. So as you go through life, you're always looking for that secure connection.
Challenges in Non-Monogamous Relationships
00:27:32
Speaker
You're always looking for that safe relationship that you had as soon as you were born. You're always longing for that, wanting that, and feeling safe in that. So all that... So what's the challenge then when you go into a more open relationship?
00:27:49
Speaker
What I'm thinking in my mind is going, I'm living by a rule, my whole life I've been told it's one person, it's one person, it's one person. And then you realize that I have this great connection with somebody, I have this great life with them, but there is something. We know that there is something and one of the partners brings, why don't we try open, as you say, consensual non-monogony.
00:28:11
Speaker
And then that person has said, but that's not the way it's supposed to be. So my whole life, it's to be one person. I've been connected from one person. As you say, I've started to relation the word and also society has told me it's one person. But it's dealing with that, I suppose, in therapy and working through what my rules are to go, actually, that's actually not what I feel. It's what I've been telling my whole life, but I can figure it out through therapy. Would that be fair?
00:28:40
Speaker
That would be fair. And you're like, yeah, I've been told this and this is what I feel I need. Is it really going to fill your needs? Is it really going to, what part of you is it playing to? What insecurities is this easing? What, like all these things can be explored. And also it's wild and not supposed to feel that way. I am shame and guilt and it's huge. And we're only two minutes out of Captain Garland. We're still very much Captain Garland.
00:29:08
Speaker
So society is saying you just want your cake and you want to eat too, or you're just being greedy, or insert whatever you want there. It's a huge thing to overcome when it's actually just between the two of you, whoever else comes in. It's enormous. Enormous because then.
00:29:27
Speaker
If feelings are developed for other individuals that are involved, then this whole thing of like, okay, the jealousy can come in and all these things can come in. So there needs to be such good awareness around that. And yeah, good communication. Like the, I suppose bedrock of relationships is communication. Yeah.
00:29:50
Speaker
compromise and acceptance and get those three, you're doing pretty good. So yeah, it's not therapy is needed. It's like, it is a bit of a minefield. Like if you can be adults and sit down and figure all this out, having, having that neutral parties, you say, we'll be quite good to figure that out.
00:30:09
Speaker
Yeah, and don't get me wrong, it's not easy because we're trying to undo so much stuff that has been put into us. I know we've discussed this in previous episodes. So much of what we should do has been put into us and trying to overcome that or go against that is difficult, very difficult. But it's really brave actually for the individuals that do want to explore this and be
00:30:38
Speaker
really giving of that energy that they have, that romantic energy that they have, that sexual energy that they have, and wanting to share that with others and just live a fulfilled life. Nothing that, of course you can't do that in monogamy, of course you can't, but just don't judge. It's not the only option.
00:30:56
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I have a question then for you. What advice would you give to couples from different cultural backgrounds? They trace
Cultural Influences on Relationships
00:31:07
Speaker
specific challenges to their identities through their cultures. So anyone considering opening up their relationship, or even just within a relationship, an intimate partner relationship, how the different cultures can
00:31:22
Speaker
the rules that they should be living by, how that can affect them, what advice would you give to them? Just create your own blueprints. Like you've been given a blueprint for how it should be. This word is coming up again, should, what it should be. But why don't you write your own blueprint for what it could be, what you want as an adult in the here and now, you're making your choices.
00:31:44
Speaker
But you see, when you bring in, you've just mentioned they're from different cultures and different religions. And unfortunately, you then have to take into what I touched on earlier, that biopsychosocial aspect of it. So this individual or these individuals may be in an environment where they have no choice to explore those things. They are in danger.
00:32:07
Speaker
if they choose to explore these aspects of themselves that they'd like to explore. And that's the same in relation to religion, culture, and sexuality, and gender expression. Sometimes it's dangerous for individuals to explore that.
00:32:23
Speaker
in their environments that they're in. So I don't think there's an easy answer to that question. And it's easy for me to say like, oh, just create your own blueprint. But what if they're in a really- If it's safe to do so. Yeah, exactly. If it's safe to do so. And yeah, that would be my answer to that. Blueprint. Okay. Right. Yeah. Create your own blueprint. Because it's not a straightforward practice, unfortunately. If only it was.
00:32:48
Speaker
Yeah, but I'm sure there are some people listening, living in Ireland from different cultures and they're going, that's us. We're trying to fit the moulds, but like they're not our moulds. So how do we? Break the moulds. Exactly what you mean. Yeah, exactly. Make your own moulds. Okay. Okay. How, we've touched on this, how can therapy help individuals embracing their sexuality, especially when faced with societal stigma and internalised shame?
Addressing Sexual Issues in Therapy
00:33:14
Speaker
I think we've covered that, like, for hours, all our episodes.
00:33:18
Speaker
It's very true. I'm going to speak to more specifics in relation to psychosexual therapy and the physical things that can be out there and I suppose
00:33:35
Speaker
This would be in relation to low desire. These are the main things you need. Exactly, yeah. So a lack of desire or a low desire to even engage in sex. And then you'd have issues such as unreliable erection, premature ejaculation, delayed ejaculation, then for female body... Are these on a psychological level or on a physical level? What way do you...
00:34:01
Speaker
You see, this is where the biopsychosocial thing comes in and you really have to explore all aspects of the individual in relation to, okay, have you checked in with your GP? What are hormone levels like? And this is in relation to female body of individuals as well as male body of individuals. Vaginismus is another one in relation to painful penetration for female individuals. And so there's a lot of physical
00:34:25
Speaker
aspects in there that also come into the space so that is where psychosexual really differs from psychotherapy in relation to that physical aspect of the self coming into the space and how that impacts then and can cause anxiety and yeah they all intersect there in the space so it's like an investigation investigating all those aspects and
00:34:51
Speaker
Yeah, I get excited talking about it because it really is amazing to help people through these things that are so shamed everywhere else.
00:34:58
Speaker
I don't think people know that they can go to therapy for these things it's like oh well this is just something either I have to live with or it's a doctor's thing and if there's no physical thing then that's it I just I'm never to have sex again or I'm never to enjoy sex again. So you find a way to explore all of the avenues and is it the ultimate goal that they will be able to enjoy sex again or enjoy their function I suppose?
00:35:25
Speaker
that's it sexual functioning and some people like will come to therapy and they will have no desire to engage in sex and they'll come to therapy to want to be able to engage in sex and that's where you explore okay let's go back let's explore what has been your experience of sex and that's where asexuality could come into the space yeah and that's where psychoeducation comes in and you can't if someone doesn't have a desire to have sex
00:35:53
Speaker
You can't make, you can't instill within them a desire to have sex. Maybe there is no desire to have it. It's sort of like a sexual conversion therapy, you're told. Yeah, which is totally legal. It's immoral. It's unethical. You cannot do that. But the individual is trying to fight against everything that's expected of them. That's where you really have to give them the space to explore that aspect of sex. Because yeah, there is our sexual selves, but some individuals don't have sexual selves.
00:36:22
Speaker
It's more emotive for them and yeah, that's okay as well. So it's recognizing that as well. I feel like there's like, if I could say, like a theme so far in these questions and what coming out of them is so many expectations placed on the individual. But they're coming in wanting to recognize and to shed and go, actually, this is me. This is what I want. This is us. This is, I rewanted. This is really getting to know themselves rather than society having told them, this is your script. This is how you do.
00:36:52
Speaker
Because anxiety would be, and stress is a major influence as well in relation to psychosocial presentations. For example, in the case of unreliable erections and if an individual presented with being unable to maintain erection, exploring that and going, okay, so from a biological stance, say,
00:37:16
Speaker
can you masturbate in solo sex and maintain an erection? Yes. Okay. And you wake up with erections in the morning, say like, yes. Okay. So this then is not physical, it's mental. And so it's breaking it down like that. And then going to look at, well, where are you in the moment when that happens? Oh, I'm really stressed. I'm filled with anxiety. I need to perform. I need to make my partner feel better.
00:37:43
Speaker
I need to make them feel wanted. There's such expectation in relation to that, placed on individuals. And I suppose in that sense, there is, you really have to explain, okay, so you're losing your erection because you're experiencing anxiety. And that's understandable because your anxiety is your fight or flight. And of course you're not going to want to have sex in a situation where you're wanting to get out of there. A biological evidence is going to take all the blood away anyway.
00:38:12
Speaker
there's that there's the sexual like excitation system which is it is our it's like our gas pedal for excitement and desire gets everything going and then there's the sexual inhibition system which is the brake pedal and it'll full stop emergency stop and everything is going to shut down because if you break it down to primitive levels
00:38:36
Speaker
in that situation, say there's caveman and a cavewoman and they're having sex and all of a sudden there's a sabre-toothed tiger behind the bush, they're not going to keep having sex, their systems are going to shut down and say to survive I need to get out of here. Your blood needs to go to your legs to run out. Exactly and so there's all that primitive stuff that comes in there and it's all unconscious.
00:38:58
Speaker
Does that help even that psycho-educational piece around going, okay, let's look at this, as you say, on the primitive level, going, of course, that makes complete sense. It's not that you can't or want or don't want to or whatever, but there is a real stress level here that comes into play. Does that help even just knowing that? Well, I'd like to think it would help for someone. It is the reality of the situation. I think some people think it's a problem with them.
00:39:27
Speaker
But that's what I mean. It's not me. I'm broken. I'm bad. I convinced her. The word that's coming up for me is normalizing. It's normalizing us. Well, this actually makes sense. Of course, I'm not going to be able to maintain an erection if I'm in that fight or flight and the parasympathetic nervous system has been activated. And my brain is unconsciously telling me I'm in danger. You're not going to want to engage in sex.
00:39:54
Speaker
So it's all connected. It's all, yeah. And it's just about exploring that and normalizing that and saying, okay, let's look at ways to make you feel safer in that moment. Like, you know, exactly. And how to be safe and with communication with your partner. And yeah, it's just about normalizing it in the space like that, making an individual feel safe in the space as well. I think that's really important.
00:40:24
Speaker
I think the sexual self of the individual, it's so neglected in terms of just anywhere. It's all, if you have a sexual self, it's to yourself and don't share it with anybody or don't acknowledge it in any way. And to have that come into a therapy space where one, it is created to be a safe space, hope
00:40:44
Speaker
And that also to now a partner into that space to fully understand each other about what's happening in our relationship in terms of the sex. Like that is so powerful and it creates, I would imagine huge intimacy then because the trust that is involved with setting out that conversation, setting out the, I know, I didn't realize that was going on to you. Okay, let's work together on this. It's huge, totally healing.
00:41:14
Speaker
The expectation that's on individuals these days, the pressure on people to succeed, there's so much in our brain. And sometimes it's hard to switch that off.
00:41:27
Speaker
when we engage in intimate relations with people. And if you are not in the moment, if you're thinking ahead to what's to come next or what's the expectation relation to this, and like you really have to be in the moment in relation to having sex, because if you're not in the moment, you can't enjoy it. And sex should be pleasurable. It should be enjoyable. And you have to be in the moment to feel that. And so it's about like that, making the personizable more present.
00:41:57
Speaker
And to get the joy, to get the pleasure, if they consent to doing so, of course, and if there's a desire to engage in that activity. Okay.
Empowerment Through Sex Therapy
00:42:06
Speaker
What's one thing you were shocked to learn from your training? Oh, one thing I was shocked to learn. Oh, shocked to learn. Well, that's a curveball. What was it shocked to learn? I think shocked is too strong a word. Yeah. I think I was surprised.
00:42:22
Speaker
I think I was surprised about how normal it would be to explore these aspects with people in relation to just exploring sex and these issues and normalizing them. I think I was surprised how empowering that was.
00:42:43
Speaker
how privileged I felt to be able to enable that realization for people. Like you say, give people the psychoeducation or the information to make them feel like it's not me. I'm not broken. I don't need to be fixed around here. It's just, yeah, by feeling safe in the moment thing.
00:43:06
Speaker
not so I think that's yeah I don't think anything shocked me per se I think it was more so I was surprised about how
00:43:18
Speaker
Yeah, how empowering it can be, how de-shaming it can be, and how great it feels to normalize all this. I feel privileged to be able to offer a space that is judgment-free, shame-free, and just normalizes all this, and humanizes all this.
00:43:37
Speaker
And even if that's a space where there's no desire to engage with any sexual activity and being okay with that and accepting that and ensuring that you are not forced into any situation you don't want to be in in relation to that. Yeah, there's all that going on. That's a great answer, beautiful. What is one thing then that you wish people did know about sex relationship therapy?
00:44:04
Speaker
Just to engage with this, I want people to know that it's okay to bring that sexual self, it's okay to give that sexual self attention, it's okay to give that aspect of yourself space to validate it and understood and communicate with it and to understand it fully and to get to know yourself, all aspects of yourself.
00:44:28
Speaker
It's like, yeah, I don't want to... Sense empowering. It's like a missing piece. It's like bringing a missing piece into the jigsaw and just saying, this is a part of me. And it may be a part that people are maybe not so willing to bring into
00:44:46
Speaker
mainstream cancer and psychotherapy. But it's like when you say, why would you go to a queer therapist? What's the difference between going to a normal therapist and a queer therapist? And it's that it's knowing that in the queer affirming space, they'll get it. They'll understand it. I can talk about my erection. I can talk about my vagina and I can talk about all this, all these things that are relevant to me and that are my lived human sexual experience and not feel
00:45:16
Speaker
judged or shamed and to have it normalized, understand it and talk through it and yeah I'm rambling. No, do you have anything else you wanted to say that and perhaps a question I didn't ask that you would have liked to have been asked? Not particularly. I hope I've done it justice because I do think
00:45:38
Speaker
Yeah, I do think it's something that is a great thing to explore. And yeah, I think it's necessary as well. I think it's a necessary branch of counseling and psychotherapy to have and for people to be able to link in with. And yeah, I just- You can definitely tell you're a passionate about it anyway and you care deeply.
00:46:01
Speaker
We all have erotic selves and the word is fulfilled. To live a fulfilled life. In all aspects. In all aspects. What is that? So you have to ask yourself, is this something that I could be more focused on and will it bring more pleasure and joy in my life?
00:46:23
Speaker
And if it could, why not embrace it and understand it a bit more. It sounds bad. It sounds amazing. We should all be going to kind of an individual to talk to the sexual relationship therapist and go, I just want to sort of self out and to go out to who I am. Oh my God, of course.
00:46:40
Speaker
Like psychosexual presentations, especially in relation to physical issues that are affecting sexual functioning. That would be the majority individual solo presentations. So. I feel like I just asked from like an intimate partner, a couple of sort of key questions there. So I just wanted to confirm that individuals do go. No, of course. I mean, some of the best sexual halves with yourself. So I really.
00:47:07
Speaker
Very good. Very true. So, yeah, of course, exploring that is even better. And it doesn't of course have to be with sex. There are other aspects, sexuality, gender, and desire, just figuring out what maybe you want. You mentioned what if two individuals wanted to open up their relationship and go down the consensual amount of solution. But how amazing for an individual to come into therapy and explore
00:47:35
Speaker
Okay, I've had some relationships, they haven't worked out, I haven't got my needs met. So maybe I'll explore in therapy what I do need and want from a relationship and explore that for myself. And then maybe I can communicate that to any potential partners in the future and see what they think about it. So to understand it myself fully, what I want and need from a relationship. So I can communicate it to any potential partners in the future.
00:48:01
Speaker
probably I need that. That's what I need. Yeah. Mates rates. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Just don't say anything on the pod, please.
00:48:14
Speaker
Okay, I think we've covered it all there. That was really good. I really appreciate you being put in the spotlight and answering those questions because I'm not trained in this. I have no clue. I know you want couples therapy per se as in inverted commas, but it really does open it up even further. Sex and intimate partner therapy really does open it up to the individual who they are, even who they are in terms of who they are in a relationship. Thank you so much.
00:48:44
Speaker
Yeah, no problem. I hope I did it justice. I feel like I didn't, but I think that's just because there is so much to communicate. You can't communicate at all in this space. I'm going to open it up then. If anybody has questions or anybody wants to ask us anything, you can email us at cleanlyqueer at gmail.com and we can answer them in the next episode.
00:49:07
Speaker
Yes, of course. And if you would like to link in to Psychosexual Relationship Therapy, feel free to get in touch. Plug, plug, plug. You do therapy at gmail.com or via Inside Matters on the Inside Matters website as well. Beautiful. Beautiful. Okay. Do you have any lingering questions actually? Do you have any questions that you had done for me? Was there anything in your mind now at the end of it?
00:49:36
Speaker
I don't think so. I think you covered, you covered a lot in that. I, I suppose I did do some research coming into this because I wanted to make sure that I did sound like an absolute joke. So, no, no. But I, I, I suppose I was learning along the way, but it's so broad.
00:49:52
Speaker
That's what I really loved about it. And I think the point that you really brought in, and that's played out, is that bring it all in. Bring your whole self in. And it's figure-outable without shame. Any of those shame pieces that are coming in, we're going to peel them back and throw them back out the door because there's no use to you. And anything that allows you to be yourself more fully, I'm all on to that. So, yeah.
00:50:17
Speaker
Yeah, no, of course. And it is, I suppose the main thing it's come away with is what's the difference between psychotherapy and psychosexual therapy? It would be more so that biopsychosocial approach where it's body, mind, and environment. So those three things come more into the space in relation to psychosexual therapy. That would be the main point. Interesting. Well, I hope, I hope everybody beats Daniel. Hopefully I'll be there to answer it.
00:50:48
Speaker
Very good. Okay folks, that is, that is, that I've been in the work on not too much episodes. So last episode to come. I felt like that was less of a discussion episode and more of a questioning episode for me. That was, basically you were in the hot seat. It felt strange. Yeah. It wasn't me going to be answering the questions. I knew nothing about it. Well, like it's very basic underscoring of information where you, you expanded my mind.
00:51:17
Speaker
Thank you very much, Clodagh, and thank you very much, everyone, for listening, as always, to the Plainly Queer podcast. We will put everything in the show notes because I obviously didn't frame it very well in my mind. I know I did, and I say I didn't. But yes, thank you for listening. Thank you, Clodagh, for questioning me and interrogating me, and you do very well in the CIA. Very good. That's my next job. We'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye.