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Queer Mental Health - Part 3
50 Plays2 years ago
On this episode of The Plainly Queer Podcast, we continue our discussion and exploration of Queer mental health. In Part Three our focus shifts to discussing Queer mental health in an informal, unscripted manner. Discussing therapeutic interventions that can used utilised outside of therapy and giving practical tips and advice that may be of help to everyone listening.
From the power of silence to the joys of journaling; join us in this ad hoc yet relevant discussion.
Please note this episode discusses potentially distressing topics. Engage mindfully and seek professional help if needed.
Thank you for being part of our Plainly Queer community.
Below is a list of resources that may be of help to anyone listening:
Queer affirming counselling and psychotherapy services: https://www.insightmatters.ie/
LGBTQ+ community support in Ireland: https://lgbt.ie/
LGBTQ+ Youth Support in Ireland: https://www.belongto.org/
Transgender Equality Network Ireland: https://teni.ie/
The Samaritans: https://www.samaritans.org/ireland/samaritans-ireland/
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Transcript
Humorous Start and Therapy Types
00:00:02
Speaker
Hello everyone, it's Paul O'Byrne here, and I'm joined by Clodagh McGraw, and we are... Hello? Oh, I thought you were correcting me! I couldn't even do it right! Should we stop and start again? No, keep going! No, I feel under pressure because this is my first intro and I just messed it up.
00:00:25
Speaker
No, you haven't. I interrupted you. It's okay, you were just saying hello and then my brain was like, my god, what's wrong? Something's wrong! Yes, but everyone, we're following on from last week's conversation, so we kind of felt, I think, at the end of the last one we recorded that we had more to say, or I felt I was quite confident in what I was saying. I know, I think there's more in it. There is more in it, but I suppose this one is less structured.
00:00:53
Speaker
Last time we were talking about kind of the types of therapy we can go to. We had CBT. We talked about the person-centered approach. Existential. Existential. And why, I suppose, our experience of personal therapy and, you know, what kind of stemmed from that. So, yeah, we felt like we had more to say. So here we are. I'm going to see what happens with this. Yeah. So if you hear just 60 Minutes of Silence, well, that's the podcast, folks.
00:01:21
Speaker
No, that's therapeutic silence. Yeah, that's what it is. That you sit in and that you work through your stuff.
Therapeutic Silence Benefits
00:01:30
Speaker
That would be psychodynamic. Yeah, it would actually. I love therapeutic silence. I should probably frame therapeutic silence. It's in therapy when you kind of reach that point where no one says anything. So I suppose it would be framed in normal kind of social settings as an awkward silence.
00:01:51
Speaker
but then when you're in the therapy space it's really interesting because you are I suppose you sit with that silence and you kind of say okay it kind of nearly becomes a power thing like a kind of who's going to speak first and who's going to break the silence first and sometimes there can be okay I'm gonna I'm gonna say something just for the sake of saying it just to break that silence I mean very interesting to actually sit with the silence and see how
00:02:19
Speaker
long and where your mind goes. I find your mind goes to some really interesting places when you're sitting in silence with someone. That's kind of the point of leaving it open like somebody needs to like percolate on something and they go actually now that I think about it and then something random comes out. Exactly or even when you know because there's always eye contact there as well. Well for the therapist there's eye contact.
00:02:42
Speaker
The client mightn't make it all the time through that silence, but it's fierce, interesting. And then sometimes it could be like... Do you ever have a psychodone on my paraphrist? I did. Unfortunately, as a client, there's never any silence with me. There's never any opportunities because I don't shut up. I make full use of that 50 minutes, but it can be very beneficial, I suppose, if someone is in silence and they can
00:03:10
Speaker
They can kind of work through or kind of understand what is the silence? Why am I uncomfortable in this silence? What do I feel like I need to bring? What am I not bringing? What's not being said? I think that's the great thing about silence in the therapeutic space. It's a really good way of understanding what's not being said.
00:03:29
Speaker
It gives space for that to come ahead. So like the therapist isn't driving the therapy or you're not just talking for the sake of talking. If there's a silence, you go, okay, that thing that I haven't been talking about, that I need to talk about, maybe I could say it now. And it's creating that moment for that to come through. Most definitely.
Choosing the Right Therapist
00:03:51
Speaker
And there's also a thing as well. I know we discussed about picking the right therapist for you. Yeah.
00:03:57
Speaker
you know, kind of shopping around, if you will, but doing your research. But that's the great tell, I think, of a good therapist. It's if they're able to sit in that silence with you and not kind of do that rescuing or not, you know, not ask a question or say something or feel the need to kind of rescue, I guess, to hold someone in silence is it's difficult. Because even as a therapist, you have to go, OK, I should say something.
00:04:27
Speaker
I need to find something to say, I'll find a question to ask them. And like all this sort of stuff comes in and these insecurities then of like, how long has this gone on for? I remember in training as well actually is, you know, when I first started and if there was a silence, you know, obviously we were taught the silence is important. As you say, don't jump in for the rescue. And then you're also, well, I was taught to reflect on what I was feeling in the moment as well.
00:04:55
Speaker
So it gives a chance to really check in with what's going on for you as the therapist in the session. So if you need to be grounded, if you find yourself going off, you know, thinking about the shopping list that you have to do after the session, something like that, it's like, oh, right, okay, I'm not here. I need to come back into the session. And so it's kind of like, you know, it's not just for the client, the therapist could use it as well. Yeah, definitely.
00:05:21
Speaker
Yeah. And also I remember as well, when I first started getting used to the resonance of, you know, whatever the client was bringing in, I had a feeling or a sense of something and learning to trust that and go, okay, you know, as I'm sitting here, I'm getting the sense of.
00:05:39
Speaker
you know, frustration or anger or, you know, something not being said. And I'm just wondering, you know, what's here for you? And they're like, yeah, I'm actually furious because I was thinking about that thing you said. And the way they didn't answer me in that conversation really pissed me off. And it's like, I could feel it. And I had to learn how to trust that. And in the silences, that became more and more pronounced. I don't know for you how that was. Yeah, I think
00:06:09
Speaker
I very, very much kind of, as a client, like that I don't really dwell in the silence. I think our, I don't feel uncomfortable. I'm quite happy being in silence. I think for me, I have no problem flowing what's coming from my, I'm quite, I have no filter. So, you know, sometimes the silence is a filter or the silence is like a barrier to kind of your thoughts or feelings, your true thoughts or feelings coming out.
00:06:39
Speaker
because you're stopping yourself. Exactly. But unfortunately, I'm quite, I've no filter. So it just comes out of me naturally anyway. So but as a therapist, I've encountered it. And it is quite, it's quite daunting when you come up against it, I suppose. And I say against it, like it's a barrier. It's yeah, is it a? Yeah, it's an interesting one, even as I have it here in my head, the concept of it.
00:07:06
Speaker
A lot of different things are coming up. Is it a defence? Is it a barrier? Is it something that could be worked with? But I think as a therapist, I learned to say, OK, this is not me. This is their time. It's the client's time. And if they want to sit there in silence, let them sit there in silence and just be here for them and hold a minute and know that you are here for them.
00:07:34
Speaker
the eye contact or being there and let them be silent and let them sit in the silence for as long as they need to. And they'll say something when they need to say something. And, you know, that's that's how I came to kind of work with it anyway and to be okay with myself. It's just to understand that it's not
Personal Experiences with Therapists
00:07:55
Speaker
about me. It's about the client. And it's at the end of the day, they need to sit there for 20 minutes in silence. That's what they need.
00:08:04
Speaker
Yeah, true. And to have somebody sit with them, yeah. What did you look for in a therapist? If you were even to answer that now. Yeah, I'd say six foot tall, broad shoulder, blue eyes, brown hair, bit of a Tommy Bow look about them. No, that's not what I look for in a therapist. That would be a very distracting therapist. What's I look for in a therapist?
00:08:34
Speaker
I suppose when I first started my personal therapy journey, I didn't know what I was looking for. I just thought, I just assumed you go and it just happens. And I think I mentioned, depending on how we release these podcasts and what order you release them in.
00:08:53
Speaker
Some of what we say is not relevant are we'll kind of reference podcasts that are maybe we recorded last week. We recorded maybe the whole thing again into one episode and kind of combine them if this doesn't work out today. No, we've given it away now. So we just can go with this. And I just wanted to put the disclaimer out there that if things are a little bit jumbled, just bear with us. It's because it's not real time.
00:09:22
Speaker
But who knows in the future it will be? What do I look for in a therapist? Let me go back to that. I drifted. Yes, didn't know what I was looking for at the start. I thought it was just you rock up, you do what you need to do, and that's it. But it wasn't. As I said before, my first therapist wasn't really into them, didn't really feel a connection, wasn't being totally honest and open in the space. And then, as I said, I went to a therapist with Insight Matters and Mount Joy Square when they were based there at the time, and amazing. Stayed there for the 15 sessions.
00:09:52
Speaker
I'm going to focus on what that person was to me. And that's what I look for in a therapist. She was so kind and gentle and warm. I just felt a sense of her warmth. I really got a sense of good energy. Just came across very non-judgmental. And it still took me a few sessions to kind of fully open up and to say what I need to say and to feel totally comfortable in space, of course.
00:10:21
Speaker
Well, you need to give yourself time to trust that, you know, because somebody might be nice in the first time you meet them and then turn around and be an absolute nightmare. So, yeah, you need to give yourself that time to ease into it. But I must say, I think just from you asking that curveball question that I wasn't expecting, focusing on that individual in that space, that was just her warmth, her energy, her kindness.
00:10:47
Speaker
So it was a felt sense that you had. Most definitely, because I think you go in your intuition. If you're in a space with someone, you can tell, well, I kind of tend to pick up on their energy and their mood and their attitude. Attitude is a big thing for me. If someone's sitting there and they're complaining, I've had some experience with therapists where they'll talk with themselves and I'm kind of like,
00:11:14
Speaker
This isn't really your space. This is my space. Stop taking away from my experience by bringing in your own. And that happens a lot. That would happen a lot. Now, in some situations, it's relevant. It's nice to know that someone would do the same thing, but you really kind of have to, like, if you're a therapist, just talking more about themselves and their issues that you are about yours,
00:11:34
Speaker
There might be time to look for a new therapist. And that feeling will come over you of going, I don't know whether this is right. And actually what I would say there is actually say to your therapist.
00:11:47
Speaker
Yeah, throw that into the room and see what happens. Yeah, really be honest with that about the process, about what it is like to be in therapy with that therapist and go, you talk about yourself a lot. When I'm talking about something, you keep referring back to yourself. So by mentioning that, it could change the dynamic. For the better, or if it doesn't change, that's not the therapist for you and that is okay. I will say though, Clodagh, I don't think I'd be that brave.
00:12:15
Speaker
You make it sound easy there, but no. And I've had the situations before where I would never, I'd be afraid of hurting their feelings or kind of upsetting them. And, you know, I would find it easier to probably just like. That's a really good point. Have a polite bow out. I mean, as professionals, I think, but if I was like, as a client, I would find it very difficult to say to a therapist, listen,
00:12:43
Speaker
You talk about yourself a lot and it's not for me. I'd rather just bow out, I think. And what difference does it make? But I suppose then you have to argue. Is that not mimicking what you would do in your own life to avoid confrontation? Yeah.
00:13:07
Speaker
So here is a therapeutic learning opportunity to do it in a safe space. Hopefully a safe space that the therapist can hear it. What I was going to say was, if you don't say it, then this behavior from that professional might continue and this will happen to someone else. So maybe you are better bringing it up. It's your responsibility to mind others. It's your responsibility to mind you. That's okay.
00:13:34
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. But what I'm just saying is in the greater scheme of things in real life scenarios, I think people might just find it easier to bow out and maybe go look for another therapist as opposed to challenge the one they're seeing at the moment.
Therapy Feedback Importance
00:13:47
Speaker
Well, it is okay to challenge a therapist. It is okay to say if something is not okay, if they said something that hurts you, no, no therapist is going to be perfect. No therapist is going to, you know,
00:14:00
Speaker
have every session just so, they're going to say things sometimes that may land. And you're like, actually, what did you just say? That was not okay by me. And I suppose for me, I would be like, please say that. You know, you get to say, I'm having a feeling right now and it's not okay. What just happened? Maybe it's in the next session or two sessions in, you know, you remember when you said this, I really felt hurt by that by all means, bring that in.
00:14:29
Speaker
I actually love just listening to you like communicate that so eloquently as you do. I would actually love someone to a client to say that to me. Like if I if I was saying if I said something or if if the space if they weren't getting from the space what they needed or like that it felt like they weren't being heard or they weren't being fully understood and it wasn't for them. They weren't getting anything out of it. I'd love for them to say it.
00:14:58
Speaker
And I suppose it's being open to that as well, open to that feedback because it is a collaborative process. You know, so you have to be in sync and there has to be a kind of, there has to be a flow.
00:15:10
Speaker
I try to say that at the start of every, so working with a new client, you'd have a meeting or the way I work, I'd have a meeting with them and kind of get the line in the land just to make sure that I have the skills or that I have, I have what they need and also that they get a chance to chat to me.
00:15:29
Speaker
and feel that vibe, feel that self-sense of talking to me, going, no, you're not it. Go with that if that's it. Or if you're, after a while, sorry, I'll get, my point was, I say that at the start of going, if I am not the therapist for you, it is so important that you recognize that. Do not stay in this for my ego, do not stay in this to mind me.
00:15:54
Speaker
I would appreciate it if you could say to me, maybe it is something I can change or meet or understand, and that would be great. But if that's not possible, move to a different therapist. Your therapy is more important than me being minded enough. So that's kind of how I would, I would start up our relationship that way that they could, they know they can say it to me. I hope, I hope they know they can say that to me.
00:16:23
Speaker
Okay, so let me put the question back at you before we go too much into the professional kind of realm. What do you look for in a therapist? So like you, when I first started, I hadn't a notion. Hadn't a clue, thought you just rocked up. I didn't realise my part in it, as in the work I had to put into it and what I needed to bring.
Mental Health Benefits of Therapy
00:16:43
Speaker
And so now in knowing myself more, and I think that's really good. That might be handy for people is to do that self inventory.
00:16:52
Speaker
And, and so what, what happened in my life or what are the things I need to talk about? You know, are there, are there, what would I say? Like, are there some big things? Like, is there a really identifiable trauma? Maybe is there addiction? Is there maybe issues around food? You know, these are quite identifiable in that that's the type of therapist I would need them.
00:17:19
Speaker
So for me, it will be the trauma therapist, you know, somebody grounded in trauma training, and have it has a good grasp. So and now at this stage, and that obviously has because I've trained in therapy myself to know what I'm looking for. But the sense of the person would have to be that non judgmental would have to be that by would have to be that
00:17:41
Speaker
You know that we were joking about, you know, leaving in the silence or whatever. And I do, I find that important because I need to think on things. I need a minute to formulate what I'm going to say, not as in to present it, but as in I need a minute to understand what I'm feeling in order to say it out. And then I've lost what I was saying. Was it the beeps? I muted myself to cough.
00:18:10
Speaker
I was like I saw you were going to Cough and I was like oh my god that's gonna come out of the thing and I heard nothing. I was like what the hell did he do? I muted myself. I did the polite thing when recording a podcast and I muted myself. I couldn't seem to do anything in muting. I'm gonna be discreet you see. You have it on the clicker. Yeah. I didn't see you reaching for the screen.
00:18:35
Speaker
Yeah, very good. So you were talking about what you looked for in a therapist or trauma was kind of an area that you- And the non-judgmental, the sense of the person. Oh yeah, that's right. So being left in the silence. I don't particularly like when it's one-sided. I need a collaborative approach. I'm going to throw this out there. I don't know how it's going to land, but this is what's in my brain.
00:19:00
Speaker
What lands for you when I say this, you know, I need that feedback back and forth. It doesn't have to be then leading it or anything like that, but it needs to be an actual conversation. It needs to be an actual relationship. I'm not a fan of psychodynamic in terms of, you know, that leaving it with the client. It just in my own personal sense, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for me as a client either. I find it, you know, it's interesting to use some of the
00:19:29
Speaker
techniques from it, techniques is probably the wrong word, but interventions. Yeah. Or even going back to forward of that, the free association. I think that's brilliant. So, you know, stuff like that. Oh, let's do a bit of free association. Come on. Yeah, come on. I love this. I love free association. So you can, you're the type of person, the client. Well, explain it first and then we'll do it.
00:19:55
Speaker
Okay. So free association will be, so if you're trying to think of things to say, all right, maybe you're, you're stuck on a particular topic that you're, you brought to therapy and you're not quite sure what's there. You're not quite sure how you feel. You're not quite sure what you think and free association will be okay. When, so.
00:20:20
Speaker
So, okay, Paul, we're talking about therapy. I want you to just say the first thing that comes into your mind when I say therapy. I'm free associate whenever it comes up. So go for it. No, don't do therapy. Cause that's like in my mind frame now, we're talking about therapy. So do something totally curve ball. Give me, so basically, if I understand you correctly, Claire, I'm trying to frame it a simpler way. You say something related to maybe themes that have come up in therapy for me.
00:20:50
Speaker
You're doing it in such a way that I'm not expecting it. And literally I'm communicating verbally the first thing taught that comes into my mind when I hear this word. Okay. So, okay. I'm going to give you a word now. Okay. Conflict. The first word that just committed my mind was resolution. Okay. Anything else? Avoid. Okay.
00:21:17
Speaker
So resolution and avoid, they're kind of polar opposites. I suppose they're solutions to it. Resolution is avoiding it. Yeah, conflict revolution, resolution, sorry, is a term anyway, so I think I associated it through that. But then the avoid, yeah, don't like the conflict. Resolution is amazing if you can reach a resolution, but some people are
00:21:47
Speaker
You have to learn that. Some people like conflict. Some people like to exist within it. But they like the conflict. They don't like the resolution. And that's when I avoid it. That's when I avoid them and that person. We didn't really do that properly. So you could keep going. What else comes up for conflict? War. Keep going. Death. Destruction. So it's very negative. Humanity.
00:22:17
Speaker
conflict countries conflict borders conflict for some reason i i'm i i'm conscious as i go through this that i'm not i'm not going to the relationship aspect of it and the conflict would come into relationships a lot but so you are going to
00:22:44
Speaker
or maybe I'm aware I'm not going to it. Or I did go to it and say, relationship. Yeah, but I suppose that we won't spend too much time on this because I'll totally expose myself and become vulnerable.
00:23:04
Speaker
That is one of the ways in psychodynamic, or it's not, well, it goes back to FOID, but that can be used. And I don't mind using that because I think that's really good and it allows clients to just, you know, put down, I would usually what I might do actually is say to them, okay, write it down, whatever it is you're working on at the moment.
00:23:26
Speaker
and just free associate whatever comes into your head over the next 60 seconds or 90 seconds, write it down and go for that. You don't have to show me or it can be done at home. That gives them an opportunity to share what they need to share. No, I do enjoy it as an intervention. I very much do. Okay, so I have another question for you. Okay. What were the mental health benefits of personal therapy for you? And I suppose
00:23:56
Speaker
over the course as well of your core training where personal development and personal therapy would have played a part, what is the difference in your mental health from before you started therapy to now after you've, or it's not after, you're still in the process, but at this point, what is the difference in your mental health? What do you feel have been the benefits? My biggest one will be emotional regulation.
00:24:25
Speaker
You know, being able to regulate myself when I was triggered or even being able to recognize that I was triggered. You know, I don't think I knew very much about myself before I started therapy or even before I started my training. And that therapy is about learning who you are, how you human in the world. And I had no idea how a human in the world, I knew how others wanted me to human.
00:24:55
Speaker
And I tried to mimic that as best I could. And I kept having all these feelings and, you know, emotions come up that would really feel destabilizing. I had no reason, I had no understanding why I was feeling that way. Because I grew up and not knowing what emotions were. Like that's, that's literally, you know, I remember being in class and I might've said this before, and saying to my lecturer going, I don't know what emotions are.
00:25:21
Speaker
Like, I shouldn't be on this training. What the hell am I doing here? And he goes, that's great. That's fantastic awareness. And like, now you can learn what they are. Now you can learn what your emotions are. Now you can learn what it feels like to have these certain emotions. So that for me was a game changer and continues to be, and I want to stress this because I am not done. I am not finished. I am not. I am an ongoing process and more and more comes up in how I heal them. And I hope.
00:25:50
Speaker
I can continue to meet that and grow from this, but at the moment, my biggest lesson has been the emotional regulation piece. So that's my answer. Two things that came up for me there. One, where did this term human income come from? I really enjoy, I really like that.
00:26:10
Speaker
I don't know. I started using it. I assume I heard it somewhere, but like we all human differently. And it's my job as a therapist to listen to you and go, well, this is how you human. This is what's happening for you as you human. And, you know, handing that back to them going, okay, this is just how you human in the world. There's nothing wrong with you. You're having these emotions and feelings and thoughts and that's normal for you. Yeah, I do. I do love it. Is it grammatically correct?
00:26:39
Speaker
Well, God, no, I'm sure not, but I'm using it. Yeah. I suppose the second thing as well, the word triggered. I started to have an issue with it last year and I, for some reason, every time I hear it, I get this image of someone, I am triggered every time I hear the word triggered.
00:27:02
Speaker
that it's quite like, it just brings like a finger on a trigger, like of a gun, like, like, you know, someone pulling the trigger of a gun. And I was like, so I started to kind of look into it. And I know the word activation is coming in now as a kind of alternative to it. I do like activation more than triggers or I've been activated more than triggered. I think trigger is just a bit, I don't know, negative connotations for me.
00:27:28
Speaker
So I've just taken over on, you know, especially in an American context, it's like you're a snowflake if you're triggered and all this sort of stuff. So I know I kind of have a bit of unease and using it, but it's also the most, and it's the clearest way I can describe it. You know, activation, not that many people are, some people may not get that fully, but triggered they get. Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:56
Speaker
But I'm sure in about five years' time, the language will have moved on. We won't be using Triggered anymore. Activate it. In certain training environments now, I've come across people using it and I think it's all about language as well, isn't it? Language is evolving. But yes, I suppose segued there, you were describing how you were different from before you started personal therapy to after.
Understanding Emotions and Regulation
00:28:26
Speaker
And I suppose you were discussing emotions, and I would really relate to that. I had no clue of emotions. It's something I would really have struggled with. And I myself, I've come to realise that I operate on two planes of thought. I think I've said this before, the emotional plane and the practical plane, but the majority of the time I really exist on a practical plane of thinking.
00:28:52
Speaker
the emotional part, I'm still figuring out and identifying and learning how to regulate. I think it'll be a lifelong, lifelong journey, you know, because there's so many environmental factors that activate that emotional plane.
00:29:07
Speaker
Yeah. Well done. Like that. Yeah. Well done. But that's so true because, you know, we haven't experienced everything we're ever going to experience. We're going to experience new things and that's going to bring up new feelings or new ways of thinking or new ways of feeling. And so we are always in the process of becoming, and another, I mentioned this before, but another thing that has, that's different now is my compassion for myself, my sense of
00:29:37
Speaker
You know, it's okay to feel what I'm feeling right now. It doesn't mean that I'm awful. It doesn't mean that I, you know, having emotions as a therapist does not make me a bad therapist. You know, it's not that I shouldn't be feeling emotions. And I should have them all sorted. Again, if you're going to human, you're going to have emotions because that literally is what it's about. So why would you judge yourself in that? Why would you give out to yourself for being angry, for being sad, for being upset?
00:30:07
Speaker
It's just how you're doing in that time. Now, what we do with those emotions, that's really interesting. That's the harder part. We can feel them, but what we do with them, sometimes we can lash out, we can hurt others, we can lash in, we can hurt ourselves. So it's really important to look at your response to the emotions and if you can lead with compassion and kindness with yourself, you're going to do quite well. I'll retort with, that's easier said than done.
00:30:36
Speaker
It's years. I'm still on that journey and I'm still working on it. A couple, well, depending on when people are listening to this, it was either two podcasts ago or could be four podcasts ago. I was talking about my epitaph. Did you find it? I did. I eventually found it in a journal from a couple of years ago in training like that. It was part of one of the modules. I think it was existential psychotherapy and or it was grief and loss, one of them.
00:31:06
Speaker
But yes, my epitaph, what's going to be on my gravestone. So I kind of had an idea the last time, but this is exactly how I wrote it. Okay. I was only nice to your face. Here lies a pleasure and a paradox, a wholly interesting and unique individual. Right. I was only nice to your face. What does that mean? I don't know. You're standing there looking at my grave. What do you think it means?
00:31:36
Speaker
You're talking about me behind my back. I'm gonna go up and like, yeah, put in a bad word so I don't get into the pearly gates if that's where you're going. And you're like, with an epitaph like that? No. Do you know what? Maybe honesty is rewarded. I think what came up for me when I was doing this, and I don't know why, I was just, yeah, it was only nice to your face, as in like,
00:32:06
Speaker
to kind of challenge people's perceptions of how I was in the world and to kind of more as kind of like a head fuck as to kind of like make you make you think back on all the interactions we've had and all the kind of
00:32:23
Speaker
stuff we've done to get in there. No, but it's a nice way of reflecting but getting them... Hold on, reflecting is one thing. You get somebody with anxiety and they're going, oh my god, what does this mean? Was that relationship meaningless? No, I think that's where the paradox thing came in. I was just like, I'll throw something out there like a little grenade. So it was only nice to your face.
00:32:49
Speaker
Plus there was stuff going on in group process at the time in college. I think we were doing all about the masks and the persona and what we show to the world and everything like this. And I was like, that'd be a nice thing to put on the epitaph. I'm conscious that we're talking about types of therapy.
Sex and Relationship Therapy Training
00:33:12
Speaker
This is really an eclectic episode today.
00:33:15
Speaker
Well, we kind of knew that anyway coming into us. It would be... Yeah, we weren't exactly sure where it was going to go. Yeah. What types of therapy? What do you want to do? What type of therapy do you want to train in now? Well, I'm currently now training already in sex and relationship therapy. So explain to me what that is for. If somebody wanted a sex and relationship therapist, what would they be going to you for? That's a good... Actually, we could have talked about that last time, but we didn't.
00:33:44
Speaker
And I suppose I'm very conscious. I am no expert. I am only starting off on this journey. It's a two year journey. I'm three months into it. So I'm very much on my baby legs. But what is a sex therapist and a relationship? Well, of course couples. So it would be couples counseling, which is actually an incorrect term, intimate partner therapy, because of course,
00:34:12
Speaker
It's not a couple anymore. They're like, you could have three people, you could have four. There's so many different. Types of groupings. Types of relationships out there now. So it's catering to that. So it's inter, sorry, intimate partner therapy. And that could be two or three or four polyamory. That's polyamory we're talking about. Yeah. Do you want to explain to people what polyamory is? Well, polyamory is when there's more than, I suppose, the traditional
00:34:43
Speaker
heteronormative kind of coupling of two people together. Yeah. You're kind of, I suppose, a triad or, what's four? Ah. I was going to say quadruple or something like that. I don't know. There's a name for it. I haven't got to it yet. That module we haven't covered yet. We actually haven't. So I'm going on my own, my own understanding of this. I will find it and I will. We can come back to that. We can come back to that. So anyway. I think it is just a quad.
00:35:10
Speaker
No, I do know what it is. So there are pods as well. So there's a couple, a triad and, well, a couple would be a dyad, I suppose. A triad or a throuple are, I think the correct word is triad though. And I hate you because you put me on the spot and I don't, I'm not fully like knowledgeable with this. And I'm probably going to piss a lot of
00:35:35
Speaker
Okay, let me reframe the question. Let me reframe the question. Why did you want to become a sex and relationship therapist? Ah, because like, because I grew up in Ireland. Repression. What does that mean? No, I see what the kind of negative psychological and societal effects can come from not talking about sexuality. And
00:36:03
Speaker
you know, embracing sexuality and not like the shame. There's so much shame around sexuality. The very interesting thing about the difference between sex and relationship therapy and kind of, I suppose, normal counseling and psychotherapy, normal, sorry, inverse commas, talk therapy, shall we say, is that, you know, there's very much a biology aspect to sex and relationship therapist, especially when you're kind of talking about erectile dysfunction,
00:36:32
Speaker
you know, are kind of, I'm going from the male bodied perspective here, because I'm a male, but there's obviously there's menopause would be something that's very kind of, this is very interesting actually, because menopause in relation to female bodied individuals, it's kind of like this new thing, because the question was asked to me, you know, a while ago in relation to HRT, hormone replacement therapy, you know, why, you know, why haven't we figured it out?
00:37:01
Speaker
you know, why weren't kind of more women told about this in the past? Because it's only a new thing. And we as humans didn't live that long if you go back 30, 40 years ago. We only lived up until a certain age or like 60s, 70s, but now we're living longer. And women, female-bodied individuals find themselves in the menopause for a much longer period.
00:37:31
Speaker
So to sustain themselves through that, HRT, hormone replacement therapy, is an option for that, is a kind of, you know, long-term viable option for it. There are other options as well. It's not also because women weren't, you know, women were seen as too complex in the medical field that the standard was that men were studied and, you know, just put across across all medicine men, you know, so, you know, women and hormones, their hormones are far more complex to a man's.
00:38:00
Speaker
and therefore HRT, or as you say, how have we not figured this out yet? And why is there not enough information? One, it was to be, we just didn't talk about it, that was women's business. But also in the medical field, it wasn't studied, it wasn't seen as irrelevant. Maybe that's just me. It's a generational thing though, as in previous generations of women, female body individuals did not live as long as they're living.
00:38:29
Speaker
That's the truth of it. So science is catching up to the fact we're living longer. But as we see in other aspects of health care and the elderly, the elderly aren't prioritised. You know, that kind of way. So there's a lot of things at play in relation to that. And do women, would women then come to you to talk about, you know, I'm going through menopause?
Menopause and Biological Considerations
00:38:55
Speaker
I'd like to think in time when I'm qualified,
00:39:00
Speaker
that I could be an individual that a female-bodied person could come to, discuss menopause openly, I would be able to direct them to services or, you know, because that's the thing, you have to know, especially in sex and relationship therapy, you have to know your limitations in relation to how far, what's your remit in relation to the biomedical side of it. Because I'm not a doctor, I'm not a nurse.
00:39:30
Speaker
I'm not a sexual health professional. I have knowledge, but that knowledge can only take me so far and can only take, so it has to be very boundry and you have to be very ethical with it. And then you, of course, would kind of make suggestions. I can't even refer on, you know, it has to be the individual, the kind of, you can psycho-educate, you can give education and then they go off and they can kind of source stuff themselves. But I'm just figuring that out recently.
00:39:58
Speaker
that there's a big difference because there's so much biomedical stuff involved in sexuality, in kind of human biology and sex and relationships. It's not just- It's just a human-ing thing. This is how we human and we're figuring it out.
00:40:15
Speaker
Are you just, are you getting paid to say that word? I have a copyrighted name so you cannot use it. But seriously though, it's more and more in-depth learning of what it is like to be in a body. Exactly. It's not just what's happening in your mind, what's happening in your psyche. It's what in your body is affecting your mind.
00:40:38
Speaker
Yeah. It's not interplay, isn't it? It's like, you know, I have a thought and my body has a reaction to that thought. Anxiety is created. The anxiety goes back up to my brain. Oh God, there's something wrong. My body feels terrible. Jesus, there must be something wrong and more thoughts come in. And that feedback loop. But then if there's, you know, if something is, you know, what did you say? Biomedically, if something is going on in the body. Do you mind if I interject for a moment? Can you name that cycle again that you just named? Can you talk through that cycle?
00:41:08
Speaker
the anxiety, the thoughts and feelings, how it flows through and everything like that. Yeah. Okay. So my brain has a thought. It's like, oh, I better set the alarm for half an hour early in the morning because if I don't, I won't get up in time. And if I don't get up in time, I'll miss that appointment. And if I miss that appointment, I won't be able to get into, and then at the end of that thought, it's like, I will have messed up everything and I will lose my career.
00:41:37
Speaker
my mind can go into that loop. And then the feeling, then my body reacts to that thought process. And I, for me, say my, my, I feel all my anxiety in my chest. So if I'm anxious, my chest gets this sensation and then the sensation then goes, Oh God, there's something wrong. My body is sending signals back up to the brain.
00:42:01
Speaker
there's something wrong, the feelings here, and the brain goes, oh, we're interpreting a signal from the body that says something's wrong, we must do something, we'll release hormones. And you know, cortisol, all the stress hormones, adrenaline, in order to, you know, protect you against the danger. But then the adrenaline, the adrenaline and hormones that are in the body are now feeding the brain going, there must be something wrong, like I feel so bad, there must be definitely something
00:42:28
Speaker
OK, is that what you're talking about? Yeah, I'm interjecting here now. I'm going to ask you a question. OK. Where is your sexual desire in all that process? Where is the feeling of it or the thought of it? Could you see it? Like, is it anywhere in that? As in, do you think it's my thought process, probably like if I was thinking about and
00:42:52
Speaker
Thinking about somebody a fancied or thinking about a fantasy, I'd have the thought, then I'd have the feeling, the feeling would then go back up into my, you know, there's this feedback. Is that right? No, my question didn't land properly. I suppose what I'm trying to say there, when you're in that anxiety, fight or flight, it's very hard.
00:43:13
Speaker
It's very hard for sexual desire to come in there and like, and be present. Oh, we know we're in that. Yeah, exactly. Sorry. Sorry. Oh, like if I was anxious and like was trying to, you know, get amorous with a partner, I'd be like, get out the sack. So that's, that's what, that's what I'm trying to like, you know, he's like, why sex therapy? It's because people are focused on, in kind of talk therapy, it's focused on that loop and that feedback loop and calming the thoughts and challenging those thoughts.
00:43:43
Speaker
But in sex therapy, you are trying to kind of do that, but in relation to sexual desire, where is sexual desire and all this? What part can sexual desire? Can we get a sense of that sexual desire back if it's gone? Yeah, things like that. So that fell flat on its face. But I'll put it... I got there in the end. Sorry, I totally missed it. Yeah, I should have probably framed it to you. I should have like...
00:44:10
Speaker
But yeah, that was, that was. I think people will get that though. Please edit that out. That was like basically the worst sex relationship intervention ever. Because I was like, okay, so this is your anxiety cycle. And where does sexual desire play a part in that? I was waiting for that. But I was waiting for that. But then you kind of tried to rationalise it in and go. Okay, how do I, you know, go into that mode?
00:44:40
Speaker
You know, I'm like, yeah, if I was feeling anxious, I would not be gone there at all. That's why I've come into it. And I kind of, I'd be a very sex positive person myself. So I think it's time to normalise sexuality in Ireland. I think it's time to normalise sexuality, to explore sexuality and to be, yeah, to be okay with it. And I'm, because I'm only starting out on this journey myself,
00:45:10
Speaker
I'm actually still normalizing my internalized chain, my internalized homophobia. I've a very interesting story. I don't know if I should tell it, but... Has this made your group processing? No. College? No. Yeah. No, I won't. Yeah. No. I suppose... No. Let's just say... Yeah. No. I can't. Cut that out. That... You do have to cut that out. That him and her hawing, whether to or whether to not. Cut that out. My God. Okay.
00:45:39
Speaker
Yeah, could I at the last 20 minutes, Claude? Edit that down.
00:45:43
Speaker
And so we're back after cutting out nearly 20 minutes though, a random rant of two just went on that nobody will ever know about. And now we're going to go back on track to talk about how we gained your stuff. And that was the tides of paraffin. So you were training in sex and relationship training. So that is your next adventure. And you are drawn to that. You were saying because you know, you're quite sex positive. There's more that you want to understand in terms of.
00:46:12
Speaker
relationships now and the different dynamics. Yeah and like I do want to normalise the shame that's out there in relation to sex and sexuality. Of course it's true, like if it'll be a small part I play but I find I could do some, I could bring good insights and I can sit with someone in a non-judgmental space and discuss sexuality and explore sexuality and
00:46:41
Speaker
go beyond sexuality. Go beyond what's stereotypically part of in relation to someone's sexuality. To go to the humanity beyond sexuality. That sounds really fantastic when you're like go beyond to the humanity behind it. It seems very thick. So segue from menopause into that and then we're fine.
00:47:08
Speaker
And nobody's going to know what we're talking about. I think they'll have a sneaky suspicion. We edited, edited. Paul has to be edited, put it that way. Chloe has a big job to edit Paul. I'm going to answer it now and say, you know, so you're doing the sexual relationship. I am doing, so last year I trained in EN, New York, and I am finishing the last module of trauma studies with ECC as well.
00:47:38
Speaker
in this semester, so I'm kind of doing trauma studies on EMDR, which EMDR is eye movement desensitization reprocessing, which is a long-winded way of saying, you know, when trauma happens and we experience it, it kind of gets a lot away from the normal, not normal, and I hate using the word normal, but from the
00:47:59
Speaker
regular pathways of our brain that we have access to and it gets locked away and it's, you know, reacts to when it gets poked or reminded or we get close to it, it really starts to jump out and causes us all sorts of problems, anxiety, depression, PTSD.
EMDR Therapy and Trauma Processing
00:48:16
Speaker
And so the EMB or what that does is it
00:48:19
Speaker
accesses the trauma memories, but we're using both sides of the brain, and how to reprocess the actual event. So you can it so trauma becomes stuck, unless it's processed. So this allows it to move allows it to become unstuck, is the very own scientific way of saying that.
00:48:43
Speaker
So that is the training I am doing at the moment. And one of the modules also in UCC is frontline workers. So trauma and frontline workers. So that's a huge thing at the moment. I love that there's a physical aspect to it. You know, the kind of way it's like in relation to the eye movement, it's kind of, it's sensory in a way to get me. Yeah.
00:49:07
Speaker
It takes on the whole body. It takes on, you know, there's a somatic element and a brain. That is the word I was looking for. Thank you. Somatic. Yeah. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. I found working with it. Sometimes it's like watching magic happen. I can't explain it sometimes, you know, obviously the client is doing the work. I'm just pro I'm helping facilitate it. And obviously safely, but sometimes.
00:49:34
Speaker
it moves in such a way that something gets unlocked and the distress that was held in that moment of that experience, you start off with what's the distress level and it might be quite high. And after you've done the processing a few rounds of processing, it doesn't happen every time now, but sometimes it only takes a few and it's right down to one or two, barely anything at all. I know it happened and it is distressing that happened and it's not that I can ever take away memory or ever take
00:50:02
Speaker
experience of the distress of that and having to, you know, if I have to remember it or go back to it or, you know, flashbacks in terms of PTSD, it takes out the distress of it, which I find is just magic. So that's one of the types of therapy I'm training. Yeah. And there is a link to Clodagh's website, if you would like to... No, no, no, no. Join her waiting list.
00:50:32
Speaker
It's such relevant work trauma and I think trauma is something that it's emerging, it's a brave new world in relation to counselling and psychotherapy and trauma focused interventions because it's like the littlest thing can be a trauma and you don't realise it. We can hold it in our bodies, we can carry it with us
00:50:58
Speaker
And we don't think it deserves the time and attention to help unstick it, but it does. It needs to be unstuck and it needs to, like you say, that processing needs to kickstart again. Yeah.
00:51:12
Speaker
And sometimes as you say, it can be the smallest of things. So you start working off what you sometimes call the big T trauma or the little T trauma. You start off with a big thing and in the process of the end you go just, you know, as we're doing this and doing the eye movements or maybe it's sound bilateral stimulation as well as cause. So it's sound on the left and right hand side, or literally me moving my finger left and right across your screen, or you have an actual screen on your TV or
00:51:39
Speaker
on your laptop or computer that does a set, a life bar on it. And I've lost the train of thought again. Jesus Christ, what is wrong with me today?
00:51:49
Speaker
Do you want to talk about that? It's the little tea, Trump. Yeah, I know. It's the little tea. So as I would say to somebody, you know, don't filter anything that comes up. Go with what comes up. And, you know, your brain can take you down many pathways and, you know, you might not think it's relevant. And, you know, after about four or five processes, they're like, I remember when I was nine, somebody took my ice cream away, threw it on the ground and stood on it. And I was devastated.
00:52:17
Speaker
And I feel, and they start crying and they was like, you know, to a kid, you're looking at this as an adult and you're like going, that's nothing like that. There's nothing in that. Or you look to a nine-year-old and maybe that was, you know, they'd saved up their pennies for that. And somebody had done it and it was a bully in order to hurt them. They may have been devastated in that moment.
00:52:40
Speaker
And maybe the adult's response was that you're fine. Don't worry about it. They're just being mean. You're fine. The child is devastated and there's the trauma. You know, it's, it's not, it doesn't have to be these big, grand, dramatic moments. And sometimes that's what we, what we might get to in the session. Well, it was big, it was grand and it was traumatic for the child. Absolutely. And that's the point of it. That is the point of it. So that's what you can sometimes uncover with the E and D or
00:53:10
Speaker
There you go. What's next? Did you have bullet points of what we had to cover in this because like that we had to cover certain things.
Accreditation and Ethics in Therapy
00:53:22
Speaker
We asked what we looked for in a therapist. We didn't cover accreditation. So one of the points I wanted to say is if you're looking for a therapist and make sure that they're accredited with a body,
00:53:35
Speaker
because, you know, at the moment, legislation in Ireland is a bit loose, so anybody can hang their shingle up and say that I'm a counsellor and advertise as that because counselling is a bit of a thing. Are you telling me I didn't have to do five years of training? No, you didn't. I could have just hung a sign on my front door.
00:53:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Brought them into your sitting room while you're having your dinner. Damn it. Yeah. So, accreditation, they have to live by certain ethics and certain rules and they have to do certain, you know, like, so we would have to do a certain number of hours of personal therapy, first of all, to finish our training. Then when we are in the scene clients, we have to have supervision. And even after we finished, we continued supervision.
00:54:19
Speaker
And we can't get away with not having supervision. So supervision is, so I would go to another counselor who is qualified as a supervisor. So they, I would bring clients to them, not identifying them or anything like that, going, okay, I have this client X.
00:54:38
Speaker
And they're going through this. This is what's happening for them. This is the process that we're going through in terms of the therapeutic process. And they may ask you questions to understand more or to make sure I understand what's happening for the client. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then we have to
00:55:00
Speaker
apply for re-accreditation. I think I'm, so I'm fully accredited. It's after five years. I know they're trying to change that just because of paperwork. So yeah, after five years, and I also have to keep up with CPD. You're the same, like you'll have to do CPD at a certain number of hours, a certain number of hours of supervision. CPD has continued professional development.
00:55:24
Speaker
I'll just come in and explain all these things. Or just say, Clodagh, Clodagh, we're going to lose our audience. We need to explain these things. So yeah, that's what supervision is. Yeah, that's the importance of having somebody who's accredited. So you'll see many accredited boards in Ireland, have a quick Google, they'll have a register of therapists and see if there's therapists in your area and you'll be able to fund somebody that
00:55:54
Speaker
is actually trained in therapy. So that was one of the points. Do you have anything to say in accreditation? No, just that it's all ahead of me. So looking forward to that. You're pre-accredited, are you? Give me two months. Student accredited. You're a student accredited. Student at the moment. So give me two months and I'll be pre-accredited and then the fun will officially begin. But because I'll be pre-accredited,
00:56:22
Speaker
in Ireland with the accrediting body that I'm with in Ireland. And I've completed my core training and everything like that. And then, but I've also now registered with an accredited body in the UK, which is the College of Sex and Relationship Therapists. And they have their own set of ethics and guidelines and everything like that. So, and this happens sometimes. A therapist can be accredited with two. Yeah.
00:56:46
Speaker
associations, which depending on their modality or their specialities, so that's good as well. It's always better to be, you know, have two instead of one. Yeah, it's not necessary just to say that. That they have two and then they come to me. Yeah, it's no better. But just in case anybody is like, you're only registered with one, I'm only registered for two.
00:57:11
Speaker
The only, the issue with sex relationship therapy is that there's no accrediting body in Ireland. So that's why I even have to go, I'm studying in the UK to get the qualification because there's no, there's not much. I'm going to say, is there none? No, there's no, I think equivalent sex relationship therapy training in Ireland. Just kind of, there's, it's advertised as couples counseling therapy. Okay.
00:57:39
Speaker
which you can do in Ireland, but not intimate partner therapy that deals with more than two people in the room at the same time with you. So yeah. Interesting. So you're going to broaden the field when you come back and bring them back to Ireland? Blow it wide open. Yeah, blow it wide open. I was about to say blow it wide open, but I was like, I won't use the pun. That's awful. No, it's getting late. Stop with dirty things like that.
00:58:03
Speaker
Okay, so how do training changes? How are we different? We've covered that. Yeah, we've covered everything there. So we have to knock out about 20 minutes of your ramblings and my going off topics. I think you still got about a good 40 minutes, I'd say. Yeah. And it's a part two of something previous. You could probably leave in some of the rambling. You could judge it yourself. I suppose take off the bit where it goes to like,
00:58:33
Speaker
where I was going to mention something that happened in college, because like then, yeah, yeah. And now I'm going to have to edit that out for facts sake. Shut up! I'm the worst! I'm the worst! Okay, on that note, we are going to finish up because we do have something after this as well. Thank you everyone for listening. Yes, we will see you in the next episode. Bye!