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Queer History Part 2: The Roots of Oppression and Resistance.
52 Plays2 years ago
How did the LGBTQIA+ community become marginalised and persecuted throughout history? How did they resist and survive in the face of oppression and violence? In this episode, we dive into the ancient and modern roots of homophobia and transphobia and the stories that inspire us to have pride and continue to protest today and every day. Love is Love, and it always has been.
In this episode, we will:
- Trace the origins of queerphobia in ancient civilisations such as Mesopotamia and Rome and how they influenced the later attitudes and laws of Christianity and Islam.
- Examine the role of religion in shaping the social and legal norms that discriminated against and criminalised the LGBTQIA+ community, such as the Inquisition, the sodomy laws, and the death penalty.
- Reflect on the tragic events that shocked and galvanised the queer community, such as the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando, Florida, and the persecution of LGBTQIA+ people by ISIS in Iraq and Syria.
Don’t forget to leave us a review and share this podcast with your friends. If you want to get in touch and share your thoughts, email us at PlainlyQueer@gmail.com.
Thanks for listening!
If you found anything distressing in today's episode, please do reach out to supports. Below is a list of resources that may be of help to anyone listening:
Queer affirming counselling and psychotherapy services: https://www.insightmatters.ie/
LGBTQ+ community support in Ireland: https://lgbt.ie/
LGBTQ+ Youth Support in Ireland: https://www.belongto.org/
Transgender Equality Network Ireland: https://teni.ie/
The Samaritans: https://www.samaritans.org/ireland/samaritans-ireland/
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello.
Introduction and Podcasting Challenges
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, people. Hello. Hi, everyone. Welcome back. Hi, Clodagh. Welcome back to another episode. How are you getting on, Paul? I'm good. I'm very good, Clodagh. Welcome. Good to be here. Good to be here. I always find these things, when you press recording, it's like, okay, we're recording. I'm always like a little bit, oh, shit, what do I say? Like, how do I, when do I, like, how do you, should we have the, but it's okay just to kind of go straight into it.
00:00:27
Speaker
So, yeah. In case you haven't realized, we're still new at this. Very new. I don't think we'll ever change. It's just who we are. It's just how it happened. It's just awkward. It's just like we're talking to people, but we're actually talking to ourselves.
Paul's Week and Health Experiences
00:00:41
Speaker
It's a weird concept to our brains. Like, well, it's a weird concept from my brain. Yeah, a conversation with another person. I know I'm having a conversation with you, but we're including other random people that think are going to be listening.
00:00:55
Speaker
I seen this meme today. I was going to Instagram and there was this like Tibetan monk just standing on a mountain in this vastness in front of them. And the thing was like me for three weeks after one night out on a Saturday. So like you have this mad Saturday night out and then you're just sort of recluse for the next like three or four weeks. Yeah, it's just pure recovery. Yeah, it really is. Just the social overload of it and your current cause. Yeah.
00:01:25
Speaker
need to just isolate for three weeks. Yeah. I, I, I definitely go into a recovery period, even if it just says a social event, like I'm getting worse as I get older. Yeah. How is your week being?
00:01:38
Speaker
My week has been good. It has been, it was just work this week. I was under the weather, I had a little bit of a dose. So I literally got up, got to work, went back to bed after I was finished work. So not a lot has happened with me. But it was good overall. I got what I needed to get done. So I can't do that. That's not good for the podcasts, Coda. I know it's very dull, but people are going to have to realize this. I am a dull person.
00:02:04
Speaker
I'm bringing a colonoscopy. You gotta up your game. Okay. Tag, you're it. You're in. Tell us all about that and book a new graphic, please. I'm sure people are going to, but they could be eating when they're listening. Do we need to give a warning? Are we, are we about to? You see this, you're shaming us. You're shaming the situation. No, no, no, no, no. Yes, you are because it's a colonoscopy. I want, I want to talk with this cause I want to debunk it. I want to like take the fear out of it and I want to kind of like de-shame us. Like what's that?
00:02:34
Speaker
anal-retentiveness. I think that comes to mind. The opposite of that. Yes, exactly. Anal-retentiveness. I could go on so many levels. So anyway, I had the colonoscopy scheduled and there's this thing as a solo person, a single person, you're kind of like,
00:02:55
Speaker
Oh, who's going to collect me from the hospital? And you're thinking all that stuff. And God, I don't want to inconvenience anyone. And sure, I don't mean that much to anyone. And all these insecurities play into us. That's a great deal. So, but if you could go for sedation, so if you get the sedation, then you have to have someone come to the hospital and pick you up. So you can't leave. They won't let you leave. But if you don't have sedation, then you can just leave yourself. So.
00:03:23
Speaker
But you have to go. You have to be awake first. Oh my god. Now you're still awake under sedation, you're just very chilled and you're doped up basically. Is that what you went for? No, let me tell the story. Sorry, sorry, sorry, okay. So I went to the hospital and I checked in and everything like that and I was kind of cheerful, reading my book, very just happy with life.
00:03:48
Speaker
It happened very quickly. This is a public appointment, by the way, and it happened very quickly. It was a very streamlined process. It was very nice in the Matter Hospital in Dublin. But the nurse brought me in and she was like, oh, and you're going for sedation. And I was like, no, I was thinking of not actually. And she was like, really? And I was like, yeah. And she was like, everyone usually gets sedation. And then I was kind of like, I don't have anyone to pick me up organized. And she was like, no, you need to organize someone to pick you up because you'll probably need sedation.
00:04:17
Speaker
And she's like, I'm going to put the thing in your arm. So do you need an IV line in your arm? Thank you, Candler. So I was like, OK. So I sat there for 15 minutes debating whether to do this. And she came back and she's like, are you getting it? And I was like, no, I'll try without it. And then if I need it, just put it into me. And then she was like, OK. And then anyway, went in for the procedure. Very nice doctor, actually. It was Alex. He was very nice. And this lovely nurse.
00:04:46
Speaker
And they were very kind, very nice, and it was all very kind of normal, which is great. Then they were like, you're not going for sedation. It's like, no. And they're like, OK, let's explain this. I might be a little bit uncomfortable. And they're like, people can be very tense. And I was like, listen, I'm just going to be honest. I'm just going to put it out there.
00:05:04
Speaker
It's not the first time something's like... It's like, it's kind of... I've been here before. It's not my first time at this rodeo. I've been on this horse before. How did they take it? They laughed, and then I was kind of like... I remember it went in and everything like that, and it was doing its thing a little bit uncomfortable, but not overly so. Okay, okay. At points. I would have dreaded that. I would have been like knocking me out, like injected into my eyeballs.
00:05:33
Speaker
uh at points you can feel it kind of making turns and stuff very kind of but no it was it was a nice experience i had my eyes closed initially and then i just happened to open my eyes and there was this big screen in front of me this tv monitor was showing us because the doctor was looking at us and i was like yeah and i was like can i look at this and then they were like of course you can this is your this is your bow this is your body your colon and so i actually seen a journey through and it was
00:06:03
Speaker
fascinating. It was a real outer body experience, even though it was your inner body. It was your outer body experience. So it was going through and it was just great to see it and to say, oh my God, you take it for granted. You take your body for granted and here it is and here's the workings of it and everything looked good. They were very happy and I was very happy and they got to the certain point and they were like, and the nurse actually pointed on my body where the camera was and I was like, my God,
00:06:32
Speaker
I was like, I can't, yeah, I can't imagine it's all the way up there. Anyway, I, it was a really great experience. I had a call to ask me and it was a really great experience. I've never heard of somebody say that, like that was a really great experience. And then the doctor said at the end, he was like, ah, like no sedation, you're a trooper. So big shout out to everyone in the GI unit in the Manor Hospital, a really nice experience. They made it really comfortable for me. And you can do it without sedation.
00:07:02
Speaker
as long as you're aint the receptive and not aint the receptive. I've marred at the story. That's really interesting. Yeah. And also everything was all good. Now, there is a downside to this. What is the downside of getting called an hospital? You have to do a cleanse for like 40 hours beforehand. Oh, the drink. Oh my God. Yeah. And you have to be next to, you have to be close with access to a toilet.
00:07:31
Speaker
But I'll tell you what, I felt, and I actually did, I weighed myself, I was two kilos lighter and I felt two kilos lighter. I felt like I was cloud drifting to that hospital. I felt great. And then I use it as a platform now. I'm going to try healthy eating-ish now going forward.
00:07:50
Speaker
So that was my week. I had a lovely cold last week one day. Quite a magical week for you. Like, it's just been like an awakening of all sorts of stuff, like getting to know your body and now using it as a platform for healthier and fantastic. Yeah. And I don't know what it was about because being a gay man, I'm more aware of the anal region, I suppose, because it's involved with kind of gay sex. So I was like, it would be nice as well just to get a little kind of professional up there to see that everything's okay.
00:08:19
Speaker
Just, it was kind of like a sexual health thing as well, as well as a colon health thing. You should have recorded that colonoscopy and put that on any fans. I'm sure there's somebody out there that would have loved that. That's true. That could be like a fetish thing, goodness. Although I'm not up for doing a colonoscopy every week. No. No. No. Not for me. Yeah, I wish I could have an OnlyFans. My god.
00:08:42
Speaker
paying the bills a bit more. I'm, I'm envious of all these people that make a million dollars a month. I'm too lazy to have an OnlyFans. Absolutely. I really am. Like even maintaining the social media for this is, and I don't, like that attention, that focus, I can't, I highly focus on one thing for a short amount of time and that's what I do. You'd be able to do it for a week and then like, unless you made your million in that week, it's never going to happen.
00:09:08
Speaker
It's like everything I do, everything fleeting. I'll invest in a short term with the exception of a few things. So there are times, you know, we are who we are and sometimes we operate in a certain way, but then you do find things that really compliment you and that you really fit in and kind of suit who you are. And you can do them long-term, even though it goes against sometimes
00:09:32
Speaker
But I think that's the really interesting part because you play around in all these different things.
Queer History Introduction
00:09:37
Speaker
As you say, the hyper focus comes in. It's just like you learn all you can in that. And it's really fun. Like for you, it's really engaging. It's really fun. But you realize it's not the thing. But most people stop after that.
00:09:52
Speaker
Where is with hyper focus it comes again it comes around and then actually find out my hyper focus is continuing me in this vein in this team. You know for me it would have been psychology as well different topics as well as there's continuing teams so i'm like okay but i would not have got that had i not. Add those different pieces for i'm like okay this week it's woodwork i love woodwork but it's not something i want to do for the rest of my life.
00:10:18
Speaker
Are you using this as an example or do you actually like woodwork? I love woodwork, but I definitely don't. I'd love to have a shop just to do stuff with that. Can you build me some garden stuff? If you have a tool in the shed and all that sort of stuff, I'll come and do it there, yeah. You get all the stuff and I'll do it. That's like, how can you like woodwork but not have any woodwork tools?
00:10:39
Speaker
Because I don't live anywhere. I live out of a suitcase. I keep travelling. It's not like I'm having a suitcase going on right now. Never mind that. Two things. That's fine. Yeah. Yeah, you have a jigsaw in your hand baggage. Yeah, nothing to see here, folks. It's all grand. Just my set of chisels. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, I'm very un-brand for the queer lesbian. Yeah. Yeah. Breaking those stereotypes. Stereotypes.
00:11:07
Speaker
That was, yeah, sorry, down another black hole there. Or, oh, a colon. They're really on the puns today. I have to stop, yes. But I just probably put that out there in relation to that because- That was a very interesting week compared to mine. Very life affirming, it sounds like. Yeah. He's exposing himself now. That he doesn't want to do OnlyFans because he's too lazy.
00:11:30
Speaker
And I love the way I'll take away into, now my focus is as a psychotherapist, who just talked about Only Fan and his colonoscopy. And people are going to love it. Or you're just going to get those clients, whatever that mix is. I'm not sure. I'm not sure what that says, but you'll soon find out and maybe you'll tell us from there. My people. I'll find my people.
00:11:55
Speaker
Listen, today we're talking about nothing that we've talked about so far has indicated what we're talking about today. What we are talking about today is queer history. I'm really excited about this. Yeah, I'm really excited about this because we, we both chosen a specific topic.
00:12:17
Speaker
Um, we haven't told each other what the topic is. So it's a random topic in queer history that we've been like, okay, we're going to teach each other on it. Now I went down an absolute random run, not random for me, but it goes on a tangent. It goes on a little bit of a, you're going to have to come on a bit of a tour with me. I don't know if I'm going to do justice. Do you want to give context or do you want to just go for it and see what happens?
00:12:42
Speaker
So do we want to give context? Why did you choose what you chose? Okay, so I'll announce what I've chosen and it is... You'll announce us? Yeah, announce us is amazing. And I don't even know how to announce it. I don't know what you'd name this. Okay.
Queer History Through Ancient Civilizations
00:12:59
Speaker
So again, apologies for the tangent. Go with me on this. So one of my, one of my loves and joys is history, but also religious history.
00:13:09
Speaker
and I was looking at obviously queer history and I kept going back to like where is the first one is where is the first written document of queer folk and it goes back as far as Mesopotamia it goes back to 2300 BCE before the common era before that sort of thing so it's like it's been there for fecking ever like we all know it's always been there we'd like to say it wasn't in certain circles and that's what led me to so
00:13:36
Speaker
It's been there in history. It's documented in history that lesbians, gay, transgender, bi, all sorts of whatever we have today has always existed. There's been no way it hasn't because they've actually created laws to say it was illegal. So how did they come about? So do you remember I said to you about Augustus, the emperor who introduced marriage as a really formal and important thing?
00:14:03
Speaker
I remember this from, yes, I remember when we discussed marriage as an institution.
00:14:08
Speaker
So when the Roman Empire became an empire, it was formerly a republic and then it became an empire, they were really on the road to like just taking over everything they possibly could and they needed armies, they needed strong armies and so they needed people to procreate and they needed people to populate these towns and cities so they like would, okay we've just taken over Spain, we need you to go and live in Spain now but we needed people, we needed families, we needed families to have loads of kids that would have
00:14:37
Speaker
men to go into our armies. So that's how marriage became so important at that time. Okay. So keep going with me. And then I was like, in how did how did it change from it being
00:14:56
Speaker
happening around the world. It was common that queer folk existed and lived their lives. It wasn't illegal or thought of against until marriage became important and then it coupled with Christianity. And my beef is, so Christ never spoke
00:15:17
Speaker
in his ministries. There's no words in the Gospels of Mark, Luke, John or whatever the Gospels, let's say, the words he spoke. He never speaks directly to or against, should I say, queer folk. He was all about love, compassion, acceptance. The Gospels weren't written until 30 years after Christ died. They were written by men who had an agenda, who thought this is how the world should be. So they took
00:15:47
Speaker
But their interpretation, even though he never talked about it and continued on in Christianity, developed with Paul, the first apostle. OK, he wrote the first gospel, apparently. So now Christianity is now taken into the Roman Emperor. It's became there.
00:16:05
Speaker
religious. It was their main religion. So now they're outlawing it. They're saying that homosexuality and specifically they're talking about that was an abomination. Everything you've heard, that's where it started and it soon became over the thousands of years, hundreds of years.
00:16:22
Speaker
that it became into law and it became doctrine then that these views on same-sex relationships influenced Roman laws and culture. So we had the influence of the Roman emperors who needed
00:16:37
Speaker
bodies who needed people who needed men to fight their wars and then previous to the Christianity this wasn't overly like it wasn't against the law it only became against the law when Rome and Christianity kind of really joined up that it really started to play rollers before this it existed people just got on with their lives
00:17:01
Speaker
And when it was inconvenient to an empire, when men interpreted Christ's work, despite him never saying anything afterwards, writing books 20 or 30 years, the first book was 20 or 30 years after it, and then Christianity coming in and compiling all of these gospels,
00:17:22
Speaker
And to make another point, there are gospels that weren't included in the Testament, the New Testament or the Old Testament, should I say? No, the New Testament, should I say. And that specifically like include and welcome homosexuality, queer people, and they cherry-picked what was allowed, what wasn't, but it's based on men's view of the world. It's a very paternalistic view that is now
00:17:49
Speaker
been handed down and incorporated into world history. So this is where this tide started to turn. So queer history is there for everybody to see. And because of Rome, because of Christianity, it really changed the concept of how we view queer people. It's quite an intense change.
00:18:14
Speaker
in
Interpretations of Christ's Teachings
00:18:14
Speaker
the world and the consequences of that, the ramifications of that is still here today. Still here today in Ireland, still spread across the world. So yeah, hopefully this makes sense. But what did you think of that? It sparked something for me actually. I think I figured it all out. I think I figured the root of all our queer problems and it started 30 days
00:18:38
Speaker
What did you say the gospels weren't written until 30 years, 30 years, sorry, 30 years, 30 years after the death of this man Christ. I think I figured out what happened. So basically one, there was 12 of the apostles, right? Yeah. So I'd say two of them just had a lover's tiff. One of them took a hissy fit or was like discreet and all like under the radar. And basically someone got their heart broken.
00:19:06
Speaker
and then just took it out, internalized it, wrote it all down, it became doctrine, and I think that's how it all started. Listen, I think one or more, maybe it was a big polyamorous thing going on, Christ and his 12 apostles, and someone got their heart broken,
00:19:28
Speaker
someone wasn't getting enough attention in that relationship. And history became twisted. And history became twisted and they wrote all that hate down and internalised homophobia and now we have what we have. Yeah. I think I've just figured it out.
00:19:43
Speaker
Yeah, I'm delighted. I'm glad I could help you figure that out. And digital, that Christ's ministry only lasted three years. It wasn't as if he had a lifetime of work and people were saying, oh, but he did speak or he did. I can tell by the way he lived his life or anything like that. Our recorded history was like those three years of his ministry.
00:20:02
Speaker
And he never spoke about or against homosexuality or queerness in any way. It was all about love, exceptions and compassion and people interpreting the works of those gospels. Men, again, men then said because he didn't talk about it, it was a case that they is because he didn't agree with it at all. And that's how anti sodomy laws and all that sort of stuff came into Roman and Christianity, Dr.
00:20:32
Speaker
So I have another follow up question. Obviously, I would not be a religious person. You are very, you sound very passionate about this. You're really into the religious history and how it all started. Okay. I get from what you're saying that you believed, that you believe there was a Christ. I suppose I'm just wondering from my, and I don't want to be disrespectful at all to anyone's beliefs or I don't want to put them down, but I just want more one to, I suppose, understand it. And if you feel comfortable doing it. Yeah.
00:21:01
Speaker
in relation to Christ. And I believe that a person called Christ, like Jesus Christ existed. They were very influential. They were like Instagram 10 million followers at the time. They were, Jesus Christ was Kim Kardashian back in the day. I don't believe all the kind of mystical side of it. I don't believe about all the kind of stories that elevated him above the normal human being, as it made him
00:21:27
Speaker
not human. So I suppose what would your take on that be? What I'm trying to say? I would be very similar to you and I'm very conscious as well. I'm very respectful of other people's views on this because I come down on kind of
00:21:43
Speaker
The way I think about it is, yes, I think Jesus Christ existed. I think he was here on earth and he had strong views on things and it was quite strong in his views. However, if you look at history, he wasn't a Kardashian, as in a standout rocker. We've never heard this before. He was one of many.
00:22:08
Speaker
But he got the largest following in the end after his death. He became a cult figure after his death. But there was plenty others who had, if you want to call it the ministries of that time, who went around preaching, who had their own little followings. And it was only after that it was brought into the gospels or written about it. It was written down and then shared and then they started making churches out of it. What my point about that is,
00:22:38
Speaker
He never said he was the divine. He never said the Trinity. He never said the Holy Ghost. He never said any of that. That didn't exist in his time. There's no mention of it when he's talking about it. Men, again, wrote that history, interpreted that, interpreted his words.
Religion, Politics, and Queer Oppression
00:23:01
Speaker
and made this mythology out of it. I will say, if you have fate, I am jealous of you. If you have, you're going through something in your life and it's really testing. It's a really hard time and you can turn around and say, God, help me here, pray to them, have a relationship, have that connection because you believe that and that is your fate. I am jealous of you.
00:23:30
Speaker
But I can't. My brain goes to, well, what are the facts? What are the history? And Jesus was not an absolute outlier that he spoke absolute truth that was never heard before. There are many people that existed at that time. There was many sects that existed at that time that were doing sort of similar things to what he was doing.
00:23:55
Speaker
but because Paul started writing the Gospel and then people started writing the Gospel based on what Paul said and it was interpreted. Half of, I think, Paul is the closest in the first Gospel that was written in time to Jesus' life, but everybody after that, the other apostles, I think the history of it. Now, I'll have to double check this, but half of them never met him. They've heard about him.
00:24:24
Speaker
Some of the books are written up to 150 years after Christ. So do you see what I'm saying here? It was created around a mythology of him. And then the Roman emperor needed the Roman empire
00:24:41
Speaker
needed something to solidify control over people. And what has Christianity done but put the fear of God and shame into people going, if you don't do this, you will die, you will die in a fiery hell pit of, and by God, if you're queer, you're even worse terrified people. And if you pay these Jews, if you are a good Christian soldier,
00:25:05
Speaker
And they're in with the empire, they're in with the people who are conquering and colonising and enslaving people. This is control. That is not Christian. It's all control. Everything's to control everything. Everything's to kind of like, as you say, it was all to fuel the agenda of we need more people in our armies kind of thing and we need people to kind of
00:25:29
Speaker
do that and procreate and not be distracted by their own desires or sexuality or individuality. It's like, we need a collective. Yeah. And then queer people were throw, were sacrificed on the altar of it. Man, when does a cult become a religion? This is a genuine. And it's organized. Oh, is that maybe what it is? And state sanctioned. Yeah, that's true, actually.
00:25:57
Speaker
Because I always like, yeah, it was basically a cult, it would be defined as like, and what I say now, right? If someone was to come, like when stand up in the center of say, town and say, I'm Jesus Christ, I'm here. It's the third coming, is the fourth, second coming? I don't know how many times has he came, but someone must do that. They'd be locked up. They'd go in for a psychological evaluation and
00:26:26
Speaker
That's what I find hard to believe is like, yeah, that's where I struggle with this. And again, faith, an amazing thing to have. It's great. It's a great comfort. It's a great kind of, because life can be, what's the point of life if there's nothing afterwards? Because life can be so difficult. So I think people need something to kind of
00:26:48
Speaker
to live for after life because life is so difficult. That's the only way to get through life is to believe or have faith that there's more to it, that there's more. We didn't know a lot. We didn't understand why there was thunder. We didn't understand. We needed stories to help us going when somebody dies, what happens?
00:27:08
Speaker
Now, Christianity did not make up the afterlife. The afterlife existed like in Egyptian times and Mesopotamian times, Mesopotamian times. This wasn't new that they created this or anything like that. It was used and brought into their own mythology of this is what happens. They created their own narrative around it. However, I do, like you talk about belief, you talk about faith. My faith is in people.
00:27:35
Speaker
And I think it's, is it far away from the, I feel years ago, so I would have read the Bible and the reason why I would have read the Bible is because I was constantly taking the piss out of the church. I was so annoyed at them. I was so, they were very, you do not practice what you preach. You are, I was just angry at the church and still am. I have no time for that.
00:27:57
Speaker
However, I used to take the piss out of them the whole time and I was like, well, what am I taking the piss out of? And so I ended up reading the Bible to figure out, I keep talking about this thing, but I actually don't know what I'm talking about. Yes, I went to school and I thought it was that force fed, here you go, swallow it whole, don't think about it. And if you did, you were put outside of class. The amount of times my religious teacher would have said to me, Clodagh, would you just take it at face value? Stop questioning. It sounds like they hated me.
00:28:26
Speaker
I was always asking back actually in class. It was like, oh, my parent teacher meetings, Paul just won't like, he always questions everything. Like, why not? Like, why, how could you take something and not question it? Like, is that not?
00:28:41
Speaker
Is that not just common sense? Is that not just a practical question before I'm going to assimilate it or process it or make it part of who I am? But even that in itself, your education on religion is like, we want you to educate you so you can A, do an exam if you're going to do an exam at the end of the year. But otherwise, if you're going to do your communion or you're going to do your confirmation, there's a set principle of what you need to know to get that done.
00:29:07
Speaker
So it's in service of something. It's not in service of you and your development of a relationship with God. It's in service of continuing the process of, we need more people in the church, continue the process.
Faith, Religion, and Personal Experiences
00:29:21
Speaker
I think it's wonderful that you questioned and I think it's great that kids question these things. We were awful disruptors. You sound like you are as well. That word has come up recently in the last few years, individuals who are disruptors.
00:29:35
Speaker
Yeah. And I embrace it. Yeah. I was a disruptor in school. Rightly so. And yeah. To get back to my point about faith and my faith being in people, if you read the Bible, it's actually quite a great book. It's actually really good and interesting read. It's far from what the church is. Is there like a movie I can watch or something? Charlton Heston, I'm sure, is one of the gods. Oh, no, no, no, no.
00:30:06
Speaker
I found is like my faith in people, my faith in, with, with in Jesus a time, what he did preach about was that love your neighbor. Be kind, be compassionate, always turn the other cheek. Don't, don't fight fire with fire or else everybody's all blind. What's that thing? If he, an eye for an eye and everybody will go blind. Oh, sorry. I'm just remembering. Sorry. If I masturbate too much, I'll go blind. Sorry, go on.
00:30:31
Speaker
Exactly, more shame. But essentially what he was saying is everybody has gotten.
00:30:36
Speaker
And that's what I believe. And that's what I have faith in. So when the world's going to hell in the handbask at the moment, and it's really hard, especially for queer people, I go, but look for the helpers, look for the good, look for the ones who are going in and going, absolutely, you know, I love you 100% just as you are. And that is hugely what I rely back on. And that gives me what faith I think in a God would give me. Okay, so the topic was queer history. Yeah. And
00:31:06
Speaker
Your history didn't get started. I kind of, you have me in shock here. Not in shock, but I'm kind of like one of those things I don't like talking about is religion because I always, I always piss people off. Oh, I'm going to piss somebody off on this. And I know that's the one thing they say never to talk about it as much as the politics, religion. Politics, religion and. That's the third thing. There's something else you should never talk about. Yeah. Politics, religion and. Oh.
00:31:36
Speaker
Politics, religion. Politics, religion and something else that you're never supposed to talk about at a party or in a social occasion or anything like that because it's so divisive. Finance, maybe that's it. Politics, finance and religion.
00:31:53
Speaker
Yeah, politics, religion and money. Three things she should never talk about. But anyway, fair play for bringing up religion. It is interesting to know where it came from. It's how the queer history got distorted. That's where I was like, it has been there. We know it's been there. It's in the history books. Even the fact that they had to write laws in the Roman times, they wrote anti-Semitism laws.
00:32:14
Speaker
in doctrine in Christianity, they had to write it. So that means it existed. And that was like, okay, but where did it exist before that? And go back and go back and go back. And nearly 3000 years before Christianity or the Roman Empire ever existed, there are documented evidence that shows queer people existed. This segue is kind of into a little bit into my into my queer history thing. Okay, go for it. No, but I think it's like segue is in because religion features in it as well.
00:32:44
Speaker
But, sorry, no finish off yours first, but it does kind of like win. Like that's basically it. My, my thing was like, how did we go so wrong as a society, as a culture, as a world, as a, when it was there.
Resilience of the Queer Community
00:32:56
Speaker
So it's always been there. It all started with Jesus and his 12 husbands.
00:33:00
Speaker
That was one of the biggest contributing factors. I'm sure there is that internalized, I'm sure internalized homophobia existed long before. I don't know why, for Sparta, even Sparta, men being men and these really rough and absolute pinnacle of what it means to be an army. They're even said to have homosexual relationships. So like even in the, the representation of what it is, it was there. And then how did that get lost?
00:33:30
Speaker
Jesus and his 12 husbands. That's not, that's not where this all started, because as you say, it goes back further. And I suppose I'll segue into mine now, because it is, and I, which religion is older, Christianity or Islam? Because Islam would be very, very strict, even more kind of oppressive against the queer community throughout history than Christianity.
00:34:01
Speaker
So Christianity developed in the second level of Judaism in the first century CE and Islam developed in seventh century CE. So it's after Christianity developed first. So Christianity was first. OK, and then Islam came. OK, that's interesting. No, I suppose something when I was looking at this up, I was like, queer history, what do you want to look at? And I suppose things that have happened in recent times
00:34:31
Speaker
that have really affected me as a queer person. Because I don't want to look at the positive things. Because no, the positive things are important to recognise. They really are. But I think we do need to also recognise the negatives, as in in ways that have been persecuted and how we've built up our resilience and why we're so vocal and why we ask for what we ask for, which is just what everyone else has, just the right to exist.
00:34:59
Speaker
But why we're so vocal about it, why we're so loud about it, why people are like, why can't you just be happy with what you have? Because queer people... I have to be in the shadows. Exactly. And I suppose for me, the most one in recent time was the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando. So I don't know if you remember that. It was kind of like June 2016. And it was a nightclub in Orlando in Florida in the United States. And I think it was like two a.m. in the morning.
00:35:29
Speaker
Things were winding down. There was a drag show going on. It was a Latin music night. So there would have been a lot of kind of queer Latin individuals there that night. But 49 people were shot dead by that gunman that night. 49 people. And it went on for, I think, three hours and horrendous. Like reading about it, watching the cell phone footage, the mobile phone footage and people trapped in toilets. And then the shooter took hostages and just
00:35:59
Speaker
awful, awful stories. Like, could you imagine being at a nightclub, enjoying your night out, you know, you're having seen a drag show and thinking it's this really safe space for you to be because the world is such living your best life. Yeah, living your best life. And then this person comes in and just opens fire randomly and just starts shooting people. And I just really struggle to understand that sometimes, but that's what's stuck in my head that like,
00:36:26
Speaker
the world is such a dangerous place for queer individuals. And yeah, so that was where I started with my queer history. And out of that, of course, the shooters, and I'm not going to name the shooter because I know recently how the New Zealand prime minister, what's her name? Ahern, thank you. When they had their really bad shooting in the mosques a couple of years ago, she refused to name the shooter. She was like, he will never be named.
00:36:55
Speaker
He will never be put into public because he's not getting notoriety for it. And it should be the same. They should not be glorified. Exactly. But basically this person said that they were doing it for ISIS, Islamic State, and that they wanted the fighting in Syria and Iraq to stop and the persecution. And anyway, this is their way of making that point to go into this nightclub and just randomly kill 49 people, 49 innocent people.
00:37:24
Speaker
So, yeah, that's where I started and then ISIS came into it. And again, we're at religion and that's where I think kind of ISIS is, it's even scarier than Christianity. Christianity is scary, but they don't go around murdering people or executing. Oh, they did. But let me get to the point. This is where I'm going. I've done a little bit of research as well into ISIS. And I remember around the time of the Orlando shooting, I remember seeing these videos as well and they were awful, distressing.
00:37:53
Speaker
but ISIS in Syria and Iraq, early kind of 2010, 2015, there was kind of that period where they were executing gay men in Syria and Iraq and how they were executing them was they were throwing them off buildings. So they were, and I seen a few videos and they were awful, awful, distressing things.
00:38:21
Speaker
but crowds of men would have gathered and they would take these gay men who were accused of being gay with no evidence. It was all here to say it was all, they were witch hunts basically. Now, I know you've said, yes, Christianity has executed people in the past, but this is modern day. This is 2016 and two men who were found to be in having homosexual sex with each other
00:38:50
Speaker
were put in front of a judge at the bottom, like not even in a court, just like randomly surrounded by militia and machine guns. And he like sent it here to death and then taken up the top of the tallest building in the city and the two of them just thrown off the building and just awful, awful stuff. I remember I was reading an article, I would go to the article that I had, there was a few of them, but I suppose I got them from the advocate and also CBS
00:39:19
Speaker
But the two men, and I have their names, but I want to try and pronounce them properly. There was 32-year-old Hawas Malawa, and he requested to be shot in the head rather than thrown off the building. He didn't want to be thrown off the building. Obviously, what a horrendous death. And that plea was ignored. He was the first man, he was 32 years old. The second man was a 21-year-old, Mohammed Salam, and he pleaded and pleaded
00:39:48
Speaker
to just that he had repented, he'd never have gay sex again, and just to please be able to live. And they ignored him and threw him off the building. And the worst thing about all this is that if they survive being thrown off these buildings, they were then stoned or shot in the head by the crowd that were there at the bottom. And this crowd, I've seen kind of pictures and stuff like that. Young men, the children, male children and adults,
00:40:16
Speaker
And just 2016, like 2016. It's still happening. It's still happening in Afghanistan as well. Just awful, awful stuff. And the United Nations kind of, I remember back in 2016, they reported that at least 30 people were killed that way in Syria and Iraq, thrown off buildings, at least as they know of.
00:40:41
Speaker
And I actually, when I was doing, like, looking up the articles and stuff like that and reading the names and reading the stories, it's just like burst into tears. You just kind of, there's so much, so much hate in the world still for queer people. It's such a dangerous place. The world is still a dangerous place for the queer community. That's why, yeah. So that was where my queer history started, but I went deeper still. Okay.
00:41:05
Speaker
Do you want to give a moment? I don't want to be, these things happen. I don't want to be too flippant. It's a real serious. It, this punched me in the stomach. Every time, every time I read it and every time I go back to it, because I think it was now, it was eight years ago, nine years ago. So it has gone a bit into the past, but it is now queer history. This is our queer history.
00:41:29
Speaker
But it speaks to, yeah, but it really speaks to, we only spoke recently about in an episode about queer joy. And there was a bit of a struggle in that episode of going on as queer joy and trying to find it and, you know, and, and the importance of it. And, and one of the reasons why I probably went back as far as I did going, what, what changed? This, this was always here. This was always, always existed. There was, it's not a, it's not something that just magically appeared overnight.
00:42:00
Speaker
It's just a human. It's just so human that queer people exist. It's just the same way as night and day having queer people exist. And for me, it's like, I can't understand hate. I really can't. And there's so much good in the world. How is it not outweighed it? What has allowed it perpetuate to the point of to change it in such a way that laws were made to outlaw it at such an early stage?
00:42:30
Speaker
Can I just highlight though, the one theme of all this fear, this persecution, this oppression in both our queer histories is religion. Yeah. That is what is the oppressive force. Like that is what's motivating these disgusting human beings to actually- What is it about the interpretation of it? Leading for his life and just to throw him off a building.
00:42:59
Speaker
How do you not find God in that? How do you not find the forgiveness, the compassion? They don't deserve as in they shouldn't need to be forgiven. But if you are following the righteous path, God is love. In any religion that you go through, that's the most fundamental part of this.
00:43:19
Speaker
It is so far removed. I know I keep saying men and women are a part of this as well. All shapes and sizes of people exist in this and it's proximity to power. It's proximity to that power that causes fear that people enact these things out on other people.
00:43:39
Speaker
And it's interesting when you were saying you were looking at the Pulse nightclub videos and you were reading the articles and really deep diving into that. I've stopped doing that for years now. And the reason why, and I think it's really encapsulated in something I heard recently on a course that I was doing is that in
00:44:03
Speaker
In Northern Ireland, the ambulance force, the ambulance people that go out to car wrecks, that go out to stabbings, that go out to really hard situations and they have to look right into the humanity of the people on the worst day.
00:44:20
Speaker
And anyway, this, this call I, what they do afterwards, it was the debrief. Now, if they know it's a bad call, people get in touch with whoever's gone out to a calling. How was that? How are you doing? And one person turned around and said, they felt so guilty. They felt so ashamed. And they were like, I didn't look. So they rocked up to this car crash and there was multiple car crashes. So there was multiple ambulances at the scene and they weren't really needed.
00:44:48
Speaker
So they chose not to look. They said, I don't, I've seen so much already. I've seen so much destruction, pain, hurt. And it was a bad crash and I chose not to look and I felt so ashamed.
Coping with Oppression and Mental Health
00:45:01
Speaker
I felt so guilty because my colleagues went in there and the person was talking about sometimes you need not to look. You need to turn to what was good. Your colleagues were already in there helping and that's okay.
00:45:18
Speaker
you not looking is minding yourself in such a kind, compassionate way. I'm going to, I'm just going to come in and counter that with like, I don't agree fully with the context of that because I think it's a different situation. It's not, that's something that has happened that those people have no control over. They know they're powerless in that situation, so they choose not to look. For someone that's in Western, a queer individual,
00:45:48
Speaker
that's living in Western society, has privilege, has freedoms, has all that, for them to not choose to look at all this awful stuff that's happening to the queer community, say in Syria or Iraq, that's different because you have the power to be vocal and you have the power to make a change or to be vocal. You should be angry.
00:46:18
Speaker
is what I'm saying. I should be angry. Even as I talk about this and I have these names in front of me and all these men that were executed, all these young men, some as young as like 15, I'm kind of like fuck religion.
00:46:35
Speaker
fuck all the bad it's done in the world. Absolutely. And I'll clarify what I meant by that is that people in the queer community or when, when I was looking back on like even an Irish history, even in recent history, everything that's come in the pride movement, everything that's come out of games has been so hard fought for, has been out of tragedy that massive changes have happened.
00:47:00
Speaker
And the queer community are so tired right now. They are so under attack. And I suppose to clarify what I meant there is if anybody is, you're getting it every day on Twitter. You're getting it every day on Instagram, people saying that just being kicked out or a trans person has been attacked or the media are writing all of these stories that are just attacking the queer community.
00:47:28
Speaker
they're exhausted, they're under attack, they need recovery. So it's okay if you're there not to look for a while.
00:47:36
Speaker
When you are more, like I feel there are things, I don't ignore it, but I don't look at videos that people are actively being shot or actively being killed in that graphic sense. We should never be exposed to that in any humanity. I know what's happened. I know it exists. I will not turn the cheek and go, I'm not looking at that. I'm not dealing with that. I'm not, I will use my voice on that.
00:48:03
Speaker
But anybody in the queer community that is struggling right now and is being bombarded with these images, with these messages, and they're exhausted, please take a break. Don't look. What you're speaking to there really kind of brings up for me what we discussed about kind of in relation when we're talking about queer mental health and the cycle of oppression. And part of that cycle of oppression is that you get to a point where you fought so much and you're kind of
00:48:33
Speaker
trying so hard like that you get fatigued fatigue is the final part of that cycle where you just kind of continue because you get so tired mentally to continue fighting to continue being resilient yes and you get fatigued so i totally know i totally kind of relate through that what you're talking to there and that's that's so true it's like yeah yeah and i suppose it's a hard history i suppose
00:49:01
Speaker
What's important to recognize here, what's happening in the space between yourself and myself is I'm angry and impassioned and the anarchist in me has flared up. And you've touched into the fact that I prefer not to look at that because it's fatiguing.
00:49:18
Speaker
And I've done so much. I use my voice. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's important to, I do want to use my voice. I do use my voice, but the other day the shooting in the US, the shopping mall and Twitter is an absolute dumpster fire at the moment because I was just scrolling along, not really just randomly doom scrolling. And the next minute this video came up and I saw the video where those people were shot and killed.
00:49:48
Speaker
Like this is, I think one of the previous texts was like Dolly Parton is that again giving away free boxes and she a legend and the next minute I saw people being killed. That is not normal. It's not. That is not okay. That's the side. We're being desensitized. It's actually being to the end by horror. Am I furious at that?
00:50:11
Speaker
Yeah, the desensitization. That's what I really want to remind people. There is so many good, there is so many people out there fighting. There is so many people out there looking to have change, to make it better. It's okay to look at them as well and to not always look at the worst case scenario. Now, I suppose one of the themes of what we've just talked about today is that I hope I have impressed upon people is that
00:50:41
Speaker
This was something that was so wrong in our history. It got so turned around because of political and religious ideology. It was wrong. The queer people were never wrong.
00:50:53
Speaker
But it suited a narrative for an empire and a religion to grow that they were so narrow in their focus of, this is how you have to live a life. This is the only way you can live a life. If you don't live this life, you are going to burn in hell for all of eternity. That's what went wrong. The people in Iraq and Afghanistan, the people who did that in 2016, they are wrong. There is no doubt in my mind that they are wrong.
00:51:20
Speaker
But if we continue to look at the bads, look at the really, if we're desensitised because we're looking at those videos all the time, we won't know the other exists. We won't know what's wrong. We know what's wrong because we're absolutely furious, but we'll be so fatigued of going, oh, here it goes again. It's so fatiguing because we're powerless. I want to help those people. I'm probably looked at at the time and wanted that not to happen.
00:51:50
Speaker
but we're powerless in what we can do to help people. There's only so much you can do. And maybe getting angry is enough and maybe kind of just highlighting it today is enough.
00:52:03
Speaker
highlighting these issues. Can you look at the helpers though? I want you to go on to that. My last point on that is when I look for the helpers, I see what they're doing. I see the good that they're doing. So in making our voices heard and hopefully people knowing that you can, as two therapists here, in seeing private clients, you are welcome in our door.
00:52:27
Speaker
We will not show you, we will not shame you, we will not, you can bring whatever you need to bring in and it doesn't have to do with your sexuality, it's not irrelevant to us, it's part of you and we will accordingly talk about it in whatever way you want to talk about. But that is part of how I know I can help is by speaking and saying this is not right, this is not okay.
00:52:49
Speaker
But if I look too much at what the perpetrators are doing, I feel helpless.
Balancing Anger with Hope
00:52:57
Speaker
I don't know what to do. I don't know how to stop their hatred. But I do know good. I do know compassion. I do know love. I do know how to accept somebody just as they are. Is this a plug for your business? No, I think it's a plug for humanity. There's so much good out there. There really is so much good out there. Don't forget to look. I love that.
00:53:17
Speaker
A plug for humanity. That's hitting the nail on the head with it. Because listen, it's complicated. It brings up so much. Even in discussing this today, it's brought up so much and that's our queer history. It brings up so much. It's sad. It's difficult. Yeah, it's joyous. It's resilient. It's strength. It's something to be proud of. Queer history is something to be proud of.
00:53:47
Speaker
There are aspects of it that, yes, are fatiguing, are awful. Yeah. And I just feel religion and in some other aspects, politics have just totally been oppressive forces against the queer community throughout history. And despite it, we persist. Exactly. And yet we persist and gloriously, queerly, fabulously keep doing it. Keep doing it. Well, maybe I shouldn't tell my other story.
00:54:17
Speaker
Go for it and listen. If it's good, we'll keep it. If it's not, we'll cut it out. It's just because I kept going down the path and I kind of, I was looking into the execution, like sort of the persecution and execution of queer individuals throughout history.
Notable Trials and Historical Resilience
00:54:34
Speaker
So I was looking like I couldn't find any information on Irish ones in Ireland and the closest I could go was the UK.
00:54:44
Speaker
And I was looking at people that had been executed in the UK over the years for sodomy or homosexuality, all men, of course. But yeah, so I came across something called the Remarkable Trials. Have you ever heard of the Remarkable Trials? No. What a day. Okay. So I'm taking this from a blog post, the University of Nottingham by a man called Harry Cox. And so basically I felt, I don't know, the story was just really fascinating. It just really kind of resonated with me.
00:55:14
Speaker
Now, it happened 225 years ago. Okay. It was the 13th of September in 1806. It was in Warrington, which is now called Lancashire in the United Kingdom. So three men, Samuel Stockton, John Powell and Joseph Holland, were all hanged from the scaffolding outside Lancaster Castle. So they were part of a group of 27 men
00:55:44
Speaker
aged between 17 and 84. And they were all from in around the Warrington Manchester and Liverpool area. And they had all been arrested. There was like a mass kind of crackdown and arresting of these men for sodomy and other homosexual offenses. So two weeks after the execution of those three men, there was two more men that were executed. They were Thomas Ricks and 69 year old Isaac Hitchen.
00:56:14
Speaker
Now, Isaac Hitchen, he kept what was called or what was known as the infamous house. And this is in Cheshire. This is where the men would meet regularly. So every morning. OK, so it's like a little speakeasy, private little meeting place for them. Yeah, little meeting place, little safe space maybe is what it was. Yeah. So Monday evenings and Friday evenings, these meetings would take place. And yeah, so the group of men contains like men from different classes.
00:56:43
Speaker
Like so there was artisans, waiters, publicans, like local landowners. So all different people. And then there was like one gentleman as well then named as Joseph Holland and he was a pawnbroker and he was said to be worth like 40,000 pounds, which is like. So there was no class system within it really? Yes. There was just all these humans came together from the different classes. And yeah. So of course at the time.
00:57:11
Speaker
The layperson and the media, the printed press at the time, newspapers, kind of found it difficult to frame this. How do you put this to the public? How do we kind of, these trials are happening, but how do you put it to the public? Yes. How do we make it palatable? So like they likened them to the Freemasons. So they were kind of like saying these men were meeting everyone different. Exactly. Secrets aside, like the Freemasons.
00:57:38
Speaker
But they were nothing like them. They were kind of obviously meeting because they were gay men. Having a fabulous time though then. Having, hopefully, a fabulous time. So five men in total were executed and they were hanged for what happened. The rest were all investigated and kind of shamed, but eventually all the charges against the other men were dropped. There was a lot of media stuff with it. I loved the language that was you that was taken from the trial transcripts.
00:58:08
Speaker
So there was just a couple of things. So I want to kind of Rix, one of the Thomas Rix, one of the men who was executed. He was initiated into this world in the 1780s by friends of his in Manchester. They used to loiter in the exchange in Manchester City Centre, where they would meet how he put this description of people.
00:58:34
Speaker
Far from being seen as a separate world or subculture, these encounters were the casual consequence of masculine social life. And Ricks recalled that he had been making water on the way home from the pub when a friend who then came up to him and took hold of his yard upon they had used friction with each other till nature spent.
00:59:04
Speaker
I just, I read it, I was like poetry. It's poetry. It's queer poetry. Yeah. Yeah. So before the trials, Ricks had tried to save himself from the gallows by giving the two investigating magistrates a full confession and a detailed account of the goings on at the house in Cheshire. Ricks also testified that sodomy was widespread and considered normal in Warrington Manchester and Liverpool.
00:59:30
Speaker
describing casual encounters in the streets. However, the magistrates were having none of it. And they did lead him on and say, oh yes, we'll give you a pardon and give us all the information. And then they reneged on it and they pulled out of it. And they, of course, unfortunately hung the poor man along with the other four. But there was one of the men actually, Hitchen, one of the older gentlemen, he refused to give any information, stood his ground, refused to cooperate. He was also hanged as well.
00:59:59
Speaker
Yeah, I just found it was, they tried to make it a bigger thing as well, the two judges, because this is a travelling high court that went around and it was sitting in the Lancaster, but the two judges tried to investigate further, tried to like expose the network, because obviously there's a lot of influential people that would go to these house, go to this house and be involved.
01:00:19
Speaker
Because obviously queer people are quite- There's political clout there if you're kind of like, I want to go mop in the world, I'll catch such and such and I'll look great. Yeah, but like queer people are quite successful and they're quite resilient. So they do like occupy. So these two magistrates were on the witch hunt and they did execute these five men and they had arrested the 27 other men. But the home office stepped in and the home office were like, no, you have to stop now. Let's go back to the way it was.
01:00:48
Speaker
It was nice when they were just meeting in their house every Monday or Friday and there wasn't an issue, they weren't hurting anyone, just let it be. Yeah, you were making it an issue, yeah. Yeah, so 1806, I just really, I love that language, that poetry, making water, going for a piss, came up to him and took hold of his yard, did a hand job, and then used friction with each other till nature spent, just orgasm. Why did you say there was 1806? 1806.
01:01:16
Speaker
In 1861, the offenses against the person that came into force criminalizing homosexual acts between men in Ireland. So I wonder, was that like a catalyst after the UK? The UK sneezes and we catch code. Yeah, probably an influence there. But yeah, there were remarkable trials that came across them. I just thought that was a really interesting story. And it just shows how queer life was happening even 225 years ago.
01:01:42
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, we were there. You can't get rid of us and you won't be able to. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. It's kind of like, I mean, you, like we did, we, we mentioned it on terms of it is a sad history in a lot of ways, but it shows such survival, such zillions. As you said, I hate that word actually. Sometimes I hate that fricking word. I hate that people have to be resilient, but there's no stamping it out. There is no getting rid of it because it's just human.
01:02:12
Speaker
I seen something today and it was like, don't commend me on being fucking resilient. Just change the fucking oppressive systems that I have to be resilient. Yes. There we go. Now we have it. So that is it. I suppose to debrief from all this, I really enjoy that. It was a really impassioned journey. It really invoked a lot within me, anger, that anarchist that I touched on before, but also
01:02:43
Speaker
I'm glad I ended on that story because I did want to acknowledge and put myself in that house in Cheshire with those men just meeting to be themselves and to get that sense of queer joy, even just for those fleeting couple of hours for themselves. I think it's important to recognise, yes, our rich queer history
01:03:04
Speaker
but also to give a moment for the probably millions of queer individuals that have been executed and murdered and killed over the years. You just love to read down a list of names, but it will probably take forever.
01:03:22
Speaker
I don't think we'd ever end it, would we? By the time we got to this century, we'd just be adding on names of what's happening around the world. We've spoken about the utopia that we'd like to have happen, that we think there's going to be change. And it's a hard one to say after talking about that. It's a hard one to say that we
01:03:40
Speaker
there will be change. But I think the point about it is, it's getting easier to talk about, not easier, but it's getting safer to talk about in a lot more spaces. And that's the point of it as well, to keep talking about it, to keep understanding how it's come about. And hopefully the amazing thing could be like, if one person listened to this, and they were homophobic, and they weren't actually hold on, this actually doesn't make sense at all. Like if it's existed since all time,
01:04:05
Speaker
And this was like a political will, religious will that's based on interpretations that I was never said in the first place. Surely there's something wrong there. Do I have to examine my inherited beliefs that have just been handed down to me? Disclaimer people, if you are listening, our society, our lives, our constructs, their social narratives. So question everything. Everything. Yeah, I love it.
01:04:33
Speaker
Okay. I really enjoyed that. It's hard. As you're saying, the anger comes up. I can feel the anxiety of it, but I think for me, I'm going to go back to my fate.
Closing Thoughts on Humanity and Joy
01:04:44
Speaker
And that is in people. And I believe God will fight. God will win. And we keep having, keep looking for the helpers, keep looking for the good that when the bad stuff happens, we can't stop it. But there are people that are going in that are fighting for change. There are people that are actively going, no, I, I'm any way I can spread joy in this world. I'm going to do it. And that's what keeps me going. I do know the bad stuff is happening, but I choose not to look at that solely.
01:05:14
Speaker
Okay. So would it be fair to say framing this as we come to the end, that you are taking, you're holding onto your faith in people, your faith in humanity, and that's amazing. And then I'm coming away with the fire, that impassionedness and holding onto that as well. So I think between those two superpowers that we kind of have, I think, yeah, we can hopefully do our part in the queer world. Yeah. Thank you, folks. Thanks so much, everyone, for listening.
01:05:42
Speaker
I'm going to take 20 minutes to decompress. Mind yourselves if anything came up today and it's upsetting. We know today is going to be a hard one and it's okay if you switched off and you haven't got this far, but if you have got this far, check in with yourselves. How are you doing? Go for a walk if you need to chat to that friend and go, yeah, that's really stirred some stuff up for me. Don't just let it fester if it's touched you today.
01:06:10
Speaker
And we always have support links in the show. So there's always kind of support links there for counselling and LGBT networks and stuff like that. So do reach out to them. But thank you for being here. This is our little queer network. And thanks for staying with us and hopefully listening to us and being on this journey with us. Yeah. Thanks, folks. We'll talk to you soon. Bye.