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Special Guest Anne Marie Toole and Dil Wickremasinghe
78 Plays2 years ago
On this episode of The Plainly Queer Podcast, we welcome our guests Anne Marie Toole and Dil Wickremasinghe. Both co-founds of Insight Matters, a Queer affirming therapy centre in Dublin which offers a range of holistic and therapeutic services.
In the episode, we discuss how and why Insight Matters came about and developed into the thriving centre, it is today with over a hundred therapists. We explore the social issues affecting Queer individuals in modern-day Ireland, such as the importance of intersectionality and individuality. The topics of Queer relationships and Queer parenting are also discussed through the unique and insightful perspectives of Anne Marie and Dil and their life experiences.
Be sure and listen to Dil’s mental health radio show ‘Tuning Inward with Dil’ every Wednesday on Dublin City FM or catch previous episodes via the Dublin City FM website. Thank you for being part of our Plainly Queer community.
Please note that this episode discusses potentially distressing topics. Engage mindfully and seek professional help if needed.
Below is a list of resources that may be of help to anyone listening:
Queer affirming counselling and psychotherapy services: https://www.insightmatters.ie/
LGBTQ+ community support in Ireland: https://lgbt.ie/
LGBTQ+ Youth Support in Ireland: https://www.belongto.org/
Transgender Equality Network Ireland: https://teni.ie/
The Samaritans: https://www.samaritans.org/ireland/samaritans-ireland/
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Transcript
Introduction and Purpose of the Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome everybody, I'm Total McGrann. I'm here with Paul O'Byrne and together we're your hosts of the Plainly Queer Podcast, where Plainly Queer individuals explore, discuss and celebrate our beautiful, diverse community.
Reflections on Pride Month
00:00:13
Speaker
Paul, it's Pride. Yes, it's, well, it's the end of Pride. It is the end of Pride, but...
00:00:19
Speaker
The end of Pride Month. So I suppose, yes, it's the end of Pride Month. I liked your introduction. It was very like, yeah, it's very like we have a, we have an ethos. We know what we're doing. Yeah. It's not just like, welcome to the Plain and Queer podcast. You put a little something extra in there. A little bit of spice. I liked it. It was nice. Surprise every now and then.
00:00:42
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. We've got to keep up the standard. And we've got to keep it fresh between us as well. We don't want to go stale. That's true. Like all my other relationships in life. I just have, yeah, we'll keep it fresh. No,
Embracing Personal Achievements
00:00:57
Speaker
yes. How are you doing? I'm good. It's been a very interesting Pride month. It's been a very full Pride month, but not a Pride things. I've just kind of liked things.
00:01:08
Speaker
but things to be proud of. So I suppose I'm really tapping into that kind of, that sense of actually being proud in myself, which I don't usually do. I don't usually champion myself, but I'm actually feeling a little bit kind of, yeah, I'm feeling a little bit, I think, proud of myself, which is good for accomplishments. So it's nice to recognise that. How are you at the end of this Pride Month?
00:01:31
Speaker
I am doing good, yeah. I think I've had a pretty good month. It's been, it's been a lot of play this, this month as well. Not just all works. Well, I'm very happy with that.
Insights from Guests and Discussions
00:01:40
Speaker
Yeah. And our, our guests this month, cause we have guests on the podcast this month are really exciting. I've loved talking about all things queer and I've learned loads this month. So yeah, really enjoying.
Personal Meaning of Pride
00:01:54
Speaker
Okay. What does pride mean for you?
00:01:57
Speaker
That is an ongoing thing for me. Don't make it about the community because we've discussed a lot about others in the community. What does Pride mean for you? What is it for you? How is it felt for you? That's what I'm saying. It's a developing thing.
00:02:14
Speaker
I know you were saying that, but I just wanted to make sure you didn't go back to others, because you're so selfless like that. You'll deflect towards it. I think, as I said, yeah, developing things.
00:02:29
Speaker
I was never not proud of being gay. I was never not proud of being a part of the queer community. However, I was wary in certain spaces, and I probably hid that from certain people in certain spaces. So in the last year, since probably coming on and doing the podcast with you, I've really stepped into it. I really, what's the word I'm looking for? Embraced it.
00:02:57
Speaker
I'm not, I'm having conversations now that I would never have with people in my life. And I take pride in that. I take pride in who I am as a queer person.
00:03:07
Speaker
And I take pride in what I can offer. I'm not saying I'm not the best queer out there. I'm just playing England. But I am proud of what even this podcast has created, the conversations it's opened up. So pride for me means standing more in yourself fully, owning it and yeah, taking pride, just taking pride
Podcast as Therapy and Growth
00:03:32
Speaker
in New Year. So to be as trite as that. Yeah. Absolutely.
00:03:37
Speaker
Yeah, that was my plan, by the way, when I started this podcast with you. My, my aim was that for that to happen for you, basically, this has been undercover therapy where you don't know it's actually kind of benefiting you. And yeah, so yeah, you will be invoiced accordingly. You've gotten there and it's been great work. Well, thank you for bringing me there. I couldn't have done it without you Paul.
00:04:04
Speaker
And likewise, likewise, it's been such a great journey and especially like that we've developed and yeah. What is it like for you?
Pride as Protest and Activism
00:04:14
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose from the conversations we've had and everything like that, anger came up a lot for me. And I think that it's highlighting this year for me in relation to Pride and over this whole Pride month, just like.
00:04:24
Speaker
tapping into that anger but in a positive way through like, activism and through things like recording this podcast and kind of putting a voice to something that needs to be said.
00:04:36
Speaker
Yeah. So yeah, that's what it is for me this year. It's a bit of kind of like leaning more into that pride is protest. Yes. I feel proud in myself and, but like the world at the moment is a bit, yeah, you got, you got to kind of highlight that and you kind of kind of put a voice to that voice of protest to us. So yeah, that's what's kind of invoking for me this year, I think. Yeah. And also, yeah. Also this amazing journey of making this with you. Yes.
00:05:06
Speaker
Thanks for dropping that in at the end. I think, yeah, a few people I've talked to this month and going back to what you said about the protest, that the job isn't done. There isn't equality. There's a lot more than there has been, surely, but we need to keep showing up. We need to keep having conversations. We need to keep protesting and be seeing a hurt in our community.
Perceptions of Activism
00:05:33
Speaker
Go on.
00:05:34
Speaker
I love when you can see now that I have something to kind of like, you're like, oh, he's going to interject. What's coming up for me as you're saying that is I'm even saying to myself, I'm getting a sense, oh God, are we like on soap boxes? Are we using this podcast as a soap box? And maybe like, are people going to be like, oh God, they keep harping on about
00:05:57
Speaker
There's no equality and all this sort of stuff and getting that sense that, oh, I should pull back from this because I shouldn't complain. I shouldn't say things should be better. I should be grateful for how it is. And how internalised homophobia is that? It's just like, yeah, that kind of way.
00:06:13
Speaker
It's like I'm checking myself nearly. I'm going, how is this going to be perceived by the majority? That like, we're here to just nagging queers that are just kind of always, well, all right, equal rights and equality and all that sort of stuff. How dare we? Yeah. How dare we, Matt. I know. Sometimes when I have questions going, who am I to be having the conversations? Who am I to think of starting podcasts and calling is what it's called.
00:06:41
Speaker
having opinions on these things because I haven't, I haven't been, while I'm fiercely proud and fiercely, I will stand up for anybody. And that doesn't even have to be in the queer community, but we're talking in the queer community.
00:06:56
Speaker
And I am, I do have this thing of going, you're not really that great a gay. So like, what the hell are you talking about? There's more about, there's better people out there with better voices that have gone through far more that should be here. But then it's like, every, everybody gets to have a voice. Like everyone could have a podcast. Basically, everyone is getting a podcast. I mean, that's the thing to do now. It's just like start a podcast.
00:07:23
Speaker
I don't know. I'm with you on that one. It's a hard one to manage at times, but I enjoy the conversations just with you. I enjoy the conversations when there are guests coming on. I feel really fulfilled by them. So as long as I am doing that, I'm not hurting anybody. So I'm going to keep doing it. And anybody that doesn't like it, they can turn off. That's fine.
00:07:45
Speaker
Exactly. But before you turn off, just do finish the episode or have it playing in the background. Like and subscribe. Yeah, it does register that it's been listened to. It helps the numbers. Much appreciated. So we welcome all, even the haters, with just please do finish the episode, mute it and put it on in the background. At least then it registers. So we do appreciate that from all our haters. Thank you so much. Yeah.
Celebrating Queer Joy and Role Models
00:08:10
Speaker
I suppose it's important as well to highlight we are two therapists.
00:08:14
Speaker
And so we do have therapy practices. We are both therapists that work with Insight Matters. And Insight Matters is a queer affirming therapy space based in Dublin One on Capel Street, the gayest street in the world. And I suppose, yeah, our guests are Anne-Marie Toole and Dil Vikaramasinghe.
00:08:38
Speaker
who are the co-founders in Insight Matters. And just, yeah, they're two really unique and they've really, yeah, how have they, like, they've impacted me. No, impacted, influenced. Oh, what? How? I don't know how to inspire. Thank you.
00:09:01
Speaker
Could I at the other word? Yeah, which just goes straight to inspired. Yeah, they've just kind of been really good role models for me. I think that's the better thing to say.
00:09:11
Speaker
They've been really good role models for me over the years as I've developed into a professional, especially in a queer affirming place. So I really- They're very generous with their time and generous with their wisdom. Yeah, it is. I know we've touched on queer joy a lot. People listening are probably like, shut up about queer joy. But that's actually, that's where a descent to my queer joy comes from, having
00:09:36
Speaker
them giving their time and engaging with us and benefiting with that. Yeah. Give it to that community. So yeah, sorry. Do you want to speak to something? No, I'll just echo that. It's been, I think it was 2019, just before the pandemic hit and I joined the practice. And I remember when I went into interview with Anne-Marie, I'm feeling, I walked out of there going, huh?
00:10:03
Speaker
there's something to this and I didn't know what it was, I didn't know because there was such something special about the conversation and it was so genuine, it was so open and Anne-Marie's just like that in general anyway and then when I met Dale it just continued and the tribe that they created as they call us, it was just so open.
00:10:24
Speaker
and welcoming and again talk about a wealth of knowledge. The therapists there are so, the variety in what they practice in, there's a wealth of knowledge just at the end of the text.
00:10:37
Speaker
And that has been invaluable to me. And I was delighted that they agreed to come on the podcast because I think it was really like, I felt it was really an important conversation. We talked about mental health. We talked about queer parenting. We talked about polyamory. We talked, there's a whole host of really important conversations within the conversation with the two of them. So I was, I was thrilled to have, have to hear them obviously.
00:11:05
Speaker
Yeah, we're very grateful for them taking the time. Buzz, thank you for bearing with us through this. This is our interview with Anne-Marie Toole and Dil Vikramasinghe from Inside Matters. Please do enjoy. Thank you for listening. And we hope that you got to experience Pride this month in a positive way and that
00:11:27
Speaker
Yeah,
Introduction of Guests Anne-Marie and Dil
00:11:28
Speaker
it was what it needed to be for you, wherever you are in the world and how you experience pride. Enjoy the episode. Hi, everyone. You're very welcome to another episode of the Plainly Queer podcast. Today, we have two very special guests with us on the episode. We have Anne-Marie Toole and Dil Vikramasinghe, both pioneers in queer affirming therapy here in Ireland and beyond.
00:11:54
Speaker
Anne-Marie is a psychotherapist, clinical director and co-founder of Insight Matters, and Dil is a journalist, broadcaster, psychotherapist, and also the co-founder of Insight Matters. You're both very welcome and thank you so much for joining us
Founding and Purpose of Insight Matters
00:12:10
Speaker
here today.
00:12:11
Speaker
I was thinking about, where's my barrel top wagon? Do you have me on the wagon? That's amazing. Sounds great. But I love that image of Pioneer as in like you're going into this brave new world and you're kind of just like going forward into the unknown, taking those brave steps that no one has taken before. And that's what comes up to me with the word Pioneer. So yeah, that's where that came from.
00:12:37
Speaker
Yeah, I do think in the sense that because we both had the experience of attending therapy and having bad therapy. There's nothing worse than bad therapy.
00:12:52
Speaker
my case anyway, for sure, I was attending bad therapy that was queer affirming. And then it was just how Amri and I met. And that was one of the first conversations we had together. Like, oh my goodness, we both had this experience of bad non-queer affirming therapy. And maybe could we do something about it? And then Amri was just in the process of qualifying and then it just things took a life of its own. I don't think
00:13:19
Speaker
we consciously set out back in 2012 to go, we are going to set up a queer affirming therapy center. It kind of like, you just qualify, you're setting up your primary practice and then it kind of involved. What do you think? I think the evolution bit is absolutely accurate because really we just, we set up and then we just did, it wasn't a question of
00:13:42
Speaker
Let's go and we never consciously said let's go in and get people to join us never happen like that people came to us. I really really like that and I think the same things still happens today I think the therapist who are drawn to work with us they are just that they're drawn to us something in what we offer in what the space offers in what the now the collective energy of the center offers.
00:14:07
Speaker
It draws certain practitioners to us and then it draws certain clients to us. And that has absolutely beautifully what I'd say, Dylan, unconscious intentioned energy for it to be a queer affirming space. I think it became consciousness of that certainly arrived for me when it was like, because creating space as a psychotherapist, as a deeply relational individual, it's always been about creating space and the many, many different ways we can do that.
00:14:32
Speaker
And then just in the more recent, probably again, just consciousness obviously arrives and nears, the more recent bit has just been this absolute real powerful mammoth connection to the queer affirming space. How deeply important is that to us? And it has just, again, it has emerged and evolved deeply, beautifully amongst Jill and I, and then amongst the incredible practitioners in the centre. That would be my sense of it.
00:14:59
Speaker
But definitely the scale is excellent because when we unconsciously, we wanted to provide something that we never got. And we want to create a space that was queer. That's for sure. I don't know whether we set out and thought that we were going to reach this scale to still, when I say the words over a hundred therapists, I'm like, what, what now?
00:15:20
Speaker
Oh yeah, because Amri was the therapist, the original therapist. I was the one who was sending a couple of tweets and literally talking about inside manners to anyone, any poor soul that happened to cross paths with me, much to their boredom. And it just grew and grew and grew. And it's like, I don't know whether we really knew that there, like we knew there would be a need, but I don't know, I personally feel that
00:15:48
Speaker
but there wouldn't be such a need. And then people from outside the queer community felt so welcome in the space. It kind of makes sense now. If a place is welcoming towards people who are queer, to people who are migrant, people who have been other all their life, then surely it's going to be very welcoming for people who are from outside that community.
00:16:11
Speaker
Just as you're speaking there, what's coming up for me is like Insight Matters has poised itself at the center of intersectionality.
00:16:21
Speaker
in Ireland and in Dublin. It's like this grand central station of all these different intersectionalities
Intersectionality and Support at Insight Matters
00:16:29
Speaker
and that's amazing and that's why it's grown. It's like this hub for all these connections, all these relationships that are just so nurturing and affirming and that going out there into the world and having a positive effect. I think that's amazing.
00:16:44
Speaker
That's really interesting to say that. When I speak to new therapists joining us or say, say we have a new student coming in and they want to see, we want to see, and they want to see if they're going to do their placement here with us, or indeed an already practicing therapist or holistic practitioner. Invariably, I always talk about what connects.
00:17:03
Speaker
the therapists who come here. And for me it's all about the real, I think anyone who actually wants to work here, whether they're in the community or not, it's actually a deeper connection to the true diversity that lives within us at a core of our being. And I think you've put some really, really beautiful, helpful, more distinctive words on that for me when you talk about the intersectionality.
00:17:26
Speaker
I think they're absolutely stunning. And I think that encapsulates us really, really well. I think it is that, because there has to be space for all. And that's that more inclusive, expansive, wide-reaching, connective piece. Love it. It's an Islamic thing. Equality for one means equality for all.
00:17:45
Speaker
That is inclusive for one group, as in the most vulnerable, the one that is most at risk of discrimination and prejudice. Surely everyone else will also benefit from that.
00:18:01
Speaker
And that never reminds you of actually all the reasonable accommodations that we as employers meant to do for people who have disabilities, to feel that they can also take a full participatory role in society. But there's certain things that we have done for people with disabilities that have benefited the rest of us, such as ramps. Ramps not only help
00:18:25
Speaker
which I use, but they have parents with buggies. Electric toothbrushes were invented to assist people with mobility issues to brush their teeth. And guess what? Everybody is brushing their teeth with toothbrushes. The remote control, the bane of our life, because when we lose it,
00:18:42
Speaker
created again for a person who can't get up to change the channel. And now we're all couch potatoes. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah, you're absolutely right. When you, when you break it down, equality for one is equality for all. And I think, I think there's a lot of us that I certainly, when I joined the culture that you created, I have not, I haven't come across it before then. I haven't come across it since. And it is something that welcomes just everybody.
00:19:10
Speaker
And it's such a testament to you guys. What is the vision then that you have? As you say, you didn't quite see if you're getting to, what's number 105 therapists? Yeah, it's about 105. Yeah. So what's the vision now? So I mean, the sky is the limit. Well, for us, one thing physically, people have said to us, would you not consider setting up a center in core, core?
00:19:35
Speaker
Galway or Limerick and other centers have done that. Other centers have definitely done that. And I know physically after, this is our third physical center. We were in Cabernice Road, up at McConnell Street, and we went to Moundre Square, and then finally we arrived here. So we went from three rooms to four rooms to five rooms to 15 rooms. And I think there was something about this space when I decorated, I lovingly decorated,
00:20:04
Speaker
The 15th room, I remember there was something in me that said, I'm done now. I don't want to decorate more rules. So, but that's how I felt then. So there has, Amri and I have talked about bringing the services of Inside Matters beyond the shores of Ireland. And we're doing that now because we're seeing clients internationally. And my dream is always to be able to provide our services in countries where it's still gay, it's still illegal to be gay, such as my own country, Sri Lanka.
00:20:34
Speaker
And I'm doing that now. I am now seeing clients in Sri Lanka and that is something that's just starting and hopefully that grow. And I think there's many of our therapists who are just seeing clients outside of Ireland. So maybe that's kind of, I think, where we're going. We're setting up another physical center.
00:20:53
Speaker
I don't think it's in me. Is it in you? I think, I think it's because the insight matters. Japanese was always our first baby. We have two kids. We have Phoenix and Xavier, but the center. And we have Polly now, so we have no time for anything else. We are biggering the family. We've heard that Dr. Sue's story with the Lorax, which goes, which talks about how a person who is quite greedy and end up feeding a factory and then cutting down all these trees, all for the sake of biggering and biggering.
00:21:23
Speaker
And I think with the centre, I was like, okay, I'm done, I'm done biggering from that perspective. But then now we started biggering our family. I don't know what we've done with the centre. I think we also have a physical. No, physically we have capacity potentially for two more rooms here. We could go down that road with our fantastic building owner. We could explore that. I know for me, the evolution in terms of our size,
00:21:52
Speaker
I and Dil have deep passion for supporting new therapists. We have deep, deep passion for that. There's a major gap in that space from a therapist immediately coming out of qualification, kind of looking around and kind of going, what do I do now? And I think that's where a center can really come into its own and saying,
00:22:11
Speaker
What you do need support, um, during this particular time, come in and lean on us a little bit while you gather yourself for that first couple of years and do it in community, do it in relationship with the center and have that feeling. And I know for me, in terms of how the size happened, when I meet somebody that I really want to work with, you create the space. So there's nothing to say that that won't continue to happen when you meet the right therapist. And you're saying to us, I think there's a real synchronicity here. That's still an incredibly exciting feeling.
00:22:40
Speaker
Because when I meet, when I meet somebody in the room, I can feel the work that's going to take place in the future through how this therapist and I are chatting and engaging. That's extremely important. And I love always having that. And I don't know, can I ever see myself closing my doors to that? Because it's, it's, it's, it's incredibly fun and vibrant and it's also still growth. And you want that, you want that, you want energy, continued energy in the building.
00:23:07
Speaker
I think sometimes what could happen perhaps in private practices of any size, sometimes when the energy, perhaps from the people running it or the people behind it, sometimes you can feel that energy has maybe gone a bit tired or gone maybe a little bit stale or a little bit, that's the exact opposite of what I want. And that's what we intentioned when we grew.
00:23:27
Speaker
We said, if we're going to grow, and at one point we were two buildings at the very same time, we said, if we're going to grow everything that holds us and everything that we value and is part of our mission, we can't lose that in the expansion. We can't lose that really connected piece, which can happen. And then it was in that two building experience that Dylan and I learned, we like our baby in one place.
00:23:48
Speaker
So that's just big to that point. We won't very unlikely to travel to another part of Ireland, but to go abroad where the support is needed for our community, for queer communities abroad. Italy is on our cards as well. We have a lot of work to do in Italy in terms of a more holistic approach to psychotherapy and a more holistic approach to health.
00:24:09
Speaker
We have a seriously, seriously medicalised culture in Italy around mental health. I firmly believe we've worked to do, we've an important contribution to make there. We have a personal connection to Italy through Dil's sister and Dil's family. So we have to do there, I think, and then as Dil said, Sernanka. That's vibrant, necessary, passionate, and important work that we can add to, I think.
00:24:35
Speaker
I was just going to say you have such a broad overview, especially in an Irish context, but also on an international context now it seems as well.
Challenges in Queer Mental Health
00:24:45
Speaker
And speaking to intersectionality as well, what do you see then, you know, the challenges in mental health at the moment and maybe queer mental health? So on an Irish perspective, things are changing.
00:24:57
Speaker
Maybe not through the better. Some are brilliant, but I suppose with the UK and America, everybody seems to be catching a cold, Austin. And I'm just wondering, is that coming through in how you see mental health? Is there changes coming about? Is there trends of what's coming into the rooms, of what's challenging people at the moment through their mental health? And you're talking from an international perspective.
00:25:25
Speaker
Anything that you see, so you're like, from, from my perspective, I can only work with what's, what's in, in, in my experience, but you have a broader base to be able to see what's happening in the world, I suppose. Is there anything you see that's different? Well, the, the, I think there it's Island is what the issues that we have in Ireland are also present internationally.
00:25:47
Speaker
Because we are living in a global village. We are all very much connected in things that are happening in the US that are affecting the queer community is having ripple effects here. And then obviously in Ireland itself, the fight is not done. Really still is very much this year in particular, it feels very poignant because it's like, if I feel
00:26:14
Speaker
for a while pride took a bit of a wrong turn and went down, let's celebrate and let's bring on every corporate onboard to sponsor us and kind of maybe forgot its original message of protest where this year I feel everyone is very much aligned because of what has happened in the recent past and is continuing to happen in relation to our communal safety.
00:26:39
Speaker
don't feel safe as a community in Ireland anymore. And that has really brought the community together to re-evaluate and establish a path forward. Celebration is wonderful, but we still have to go back to basics here, go back to making sure that people in our community feel safe. And so while that is happening, in some ways I feel it helps our communities here
00:27:08
Speaker
to connect with communities like the one in Sri Lanka or in Iran or Afghanistan where safety never happened. It is yet to happen and so in some ways I feel we are still it's like it's going back and forth. It's like it's not linear apart to creating a world that is accepting for the entire global LGBTQI
00:27:32
Speaker
community is, is, is, is not linear. Is that we go up and down the moments where we feel, oh, we are the tightest turn and we are doing great. And now suddenly we're like, Oh, I don't know whether the tightest turn now, are we going back to, to where we were a few, maybe 10, 20 years ago. So it's all, it's all connected. And I think.
00:27:52
Speaker
When things happen in the west, the east very much are impacted by it as well. So I feel the trends are quite similar, even though it might not be as extreme in relation to how, say, an LGBTQI plus person in Ireland would feel around coming out or around being able to walk down the street holding hands with partner, but elements of it are still very much present.
Navigating Long-term Queer Relationships
00:28:18
Speaker
If it's okay, I'm going to segue from kind of insight matters, which is what you've nurtured and created together and what has grown to yourselves personally. Um, I'd like to speak to the non-monogamous elephant in the room, if that's okay. No, you actually-
00:28:38
Speaker
You actually don't have to talk about us, but what I am going to recognize is that you've had a very kind of long fulfilling relationship together. 13 years, is that correct? 14 years. So my question to you is, what is your advice for queer individuals who are in kind of long-term relationships together? What are your secrets to a kind of fulfilling relationship?
00:29:03
Speaker
Run! That kind of relationship that you've had, what are your secrets? I can't make them work.
00:29:10
Speaker
So, Paul, are you asking what's the, what, what, just even, even in our, in our monogamous time, what, what was our kind of like, what connected us? Or are you talking about the recent move into what inspired us towards, towards ethical non-monogamy? Yeah. I want to look at the overall, I don't want to focus on any one kind of type of relationship, the monogamy, just overall as human beings, as queer individuals who have experienced your relationship together. What, what is your advice for other queer individuals? Okay.
00:29:40
Speaker
I think I may segue this back to your other question about some of the vulnerabilities in our healthcare service provision to queer individuals. There may be a segue back to this because I think it's all linked. So for me, sexuality, our connection to it, it's
00:30:06
Speaker
We all need, I feel, and we have the right to free, connected, safe space to explore that. That's an incredibly important part of our growing up experience. We've experienced that with our second born, who was born female and at age three came to us and said, mommy and mama, I'm a boy.
00:30:30
Speaker
So we experienced, this is Xavier, our youngest. So we experienced at a very young age, a child's absolutely beautiful, necessary, spacious, but their, their, their fluid process. And in terms of what they were experiencing as their felt identity in terms of who they were in this world. Right.
00:30:53
Speaker
That could be, it makes sense that Xavier would feel a safety to do that in a queer family very, very deeply connected to queer culture, right? Every child has the right to have space to do that, right? The difficulty in a child and not having space to do that is that this really essential part of them has to be shut down. If they don't have relational safety and safety in their environment, how can they possibly at that young dependent age connect with themselves?
00:31:22
Speaker
To go back to your more, specifically to your question, it's the same with our sexual identity, our sexuality, our experience of ourselves as sexual beings in this world. So then we kind of come to ourselves as adults now, adults saying, hey, who am I in this way? Have I deeply explored my sexuality outside and including my identity?
00:31:45
Speaker
Because it is significantly more than how we identify who we are attracted to. It feeds so, it dances so beautifully with our sensuality. Sensuality connects us with who we are, what we need in our body, our loves, our tastes, our desires, what we want to say no to. It brings up extremely important things around consent and boundaries. Who am I in this world and how do I connect with that?
00:32:09
Speaker
So if somebody in our community and outside is thinking about exploring this for themselves, be there with one partner or considering multiple partners, that core anchor is themselves. And to be really, really spacious and open in terms of how they move to connect with themselves.
00:32:26
Speaker
Because quite likely, if it is a member of our community, quite likely there will probably be an element of disconnect there. Maybe even an element on the continuum of trauma. Because that's what happens as queer individuals trying to develop and nurture this part of ourselves in our current world. We don't get the luxury of safe passage.
00:32:49
Speaker
as a given throughout that journey, which means we're going to meet roadblocks along the way as adults when we go to connect to that part of ourselves and the reality of trying to connect with another. And there's loads of ways people do it. We're all doing it in very, very different ways. These days we're doing it through the apps, we're doing it through meetings, we're meetups, we're doing it loads of ways. The real openness to that in our world today is really helpful.
00:33:13
Speaker
There has to be an understanding to connect deeply with another and to do that safely involves connecting deeply with oneself. Because otherwise we're vulnerable. We're vulnerable without that internal connect of peace and there's so many ways to do it.
00:33:26
Speaker
There's so many ways to actually do it. Try the one that feels right for you. And to bring it to us, because that's how I perceive your question around what is it about our relationship that has come together and staying together for 14 years.
00:33:46
Speaker
But I speak for myself, I feel because of that, I feel so much disruption in my child development around being in relationship.
00:33:58
Speaker
So, so we, we understand that that's what therapy is all about, creating that space that a client can heal all the wounds and, and reignite the development, healthy development, almost relating to another human being. And, and so, and you do that through another person. We learned that through the other end, often many of us didn't get that from our own parents. So I know for myself, I connected with Anne Marie before I actually connected with myself.
00:34:27
Speaker
I know within my relationship with Amri in the last 14 years, there's been a huge growth for me over time because of that connection. Primary attachment figure. Your partner?
00:34:46
Speaker
Oh, it turns out to be wearing your mother. All right, Freud. So it's through that 14 year relationship that I have grown and I think we have grown together through our relationship and at every juncture, there would have been rapids, there would have been rupture, but there was always, we always came back. We always came back prepared and we always looked at each other as like, okay, we've just gone through this massive growth period.
00:35:15
Speaker
do we still want to be with each other? And the answer always came, yes, of course we want to be with each other. And for me- Can I ask, sorry on that, do you actually ask each other, do you keep coming back? Because I know there's, there is a, I don't want to say like a tribe or something where it's like, you get married, but you get married for a year.
00:35:32
Speaker
And every year after that, you come back and you go, how are we doing? Do we still want to do this? Yes. Okay. Let's go for another year. And this continual renewal. Do you actually do that together? Is it a continual, not a setting, but a continual choice to connect? Well, yeah, we renew every, every, every minute. You know, every, it's true. I think, I think we,
00:35:58
Speaker
do renew, we check in with each other around how each other is with each other. And we have this vision and we're always continuing to check in, is this what you want to do? Is this what I want to do? I mean, it's still good. And I think to speak for the last six months, we did this, I know I did at levels that we've never done before, which is really important.
00:36:24
Speaker
to do before you engage in transitioning monogamous relationship into a non-monogamous analytical consensual non-monogamous relationship because oftentimes people make this transition opening their relationship because of the alternative is to terrify.
00:36:42
Speaker
Let's open this relationship because the idea of us splitting up is too terrifying. And that is, that's a recipe for disaster. Because if you're doing that simply because you are really not really happy in that relationship, then there's going to be absolute carnage. But with us, we continually assessed and checked in and checked in and checked in. And that's why we are, we're here where we are.
00:37:05
Speaker
What's coming up for me is you're kind of, you frame that so beautifully and from many different perspectives, which is great because it really helps to understand it and frame it. But I suppose our generation, our blueprint of what a relationship should be, a romantic relationship is rooted in heteronormativity. That is our blueprint. Our blueprint is enough that that's the way it should have been.
00:37:28
Speaker
So there's no kind of, we're creating our own blueprint now for our relationships, for our romantic relationships. We have the power and the ability to do that. And it's like that, it's checking in, it's kind of taking those brave steps towards yourself and towards kind of what's going to be better for yourself and the individual or the individuals you're in the relationship with. So I think it's making our own blueprints now. It's stop following the one from the past because they are not serving us well.
00:37:56
Speaker
It's to go forward, create your own blueprint that is unique to you and the people surrounding you. When Dylan and I met, one of the first things we said to each other, as the relationship came together, we said there was various bits in that starting process that plenty of people around us sort of said, not a good idea for this reason, for that reason. We heard a bit of that. We did.
00:38:21
Speaker
really, really early on and just absolutely beautifully. We said, try the rule book. I'm really interested. I think over the years we've thrown out the rule book a number of times, but that was a big one. Six months ago in the move to ethical consensual non-monogamy, it was another big one. But I remember speaking to Jim during a particularly tough rapid, because absolutely it'll bring you into the
00:38:45
Speaker
It brought me into the core of who I am in relationship with Dil and with myself to go, what's working here? What's not working? You've got to be willing to go there and hang around for what happens in that. But in one of those particularly difficult moments, I looked across the table at Dil and I said, we weren't quite meeting on something. And I just looked at it and said, you don't get it.
00:39:07
Speaker
There's nowhere you and I can't go because I just absolutely trust you from one soul to another. And I said, there's nowhere you and I cannot go together. And I know without question, it was a soulful conscious choice to connect with the devil in my life. And it worked from there. The other piece is a really, really deeply important part of my life journey and most essentially my relationship journey at this part of my life right now.
Incorporating Joy in Relationships
00:39:35
Speaker
is likeness and joy as to be in likeness and joy. And I stay that because for a greater, for a big part of my life, there wasn't in relationship. There was around me. I could feel it, not in relationship because I deeply, deeply struggled in relationship. This thing that I absolutely adore, I adore it. It's how I, the passion I have, the craft that I feel it is when we go in, when we are in relationship with our client.
00:40:03
Speaker
What happens in those rooms? And I love it outside of therapy, but it wasn't happening for me. That level of joy in personal relationships was not happening. And then this beautiful shift happened and didn't met me in this incredible place six months ago. And look what's here after all of that at work. Lightness, joy, and basically the check-ins.
00:40:26
Speaker
The check-ins are, how's the energy? How's the energy done? What's our energy like today? Are we feeling this right? What's the energy of the kids? Are we making good decisions? Am I missing something here? I want to read the energy here. We just take time with each other, give each other space, give ourselves space with the energy. So it's a light check-in after hard work. After hard work, sure. But the lightness is here now. That's the bit that's really important as well.
00:40:53
Speaker
I suppose, a follow-up question. You being therapists, you both being therapists, has that helped or has that hindered? It's helped. I mean, there's been a huge shift, doesn't it? Because I wasn't the therapist at the same moment, right? The generalist time was a workplace trainer and who had some awareness around it now. And then you can't beat them, you join them. But interestingly, this is not accidental. Neither of our respective partners are psychotherapists.
00:41:22
Speaker
When you become so nervous, when you start training, at the end of it you're halfway through training, at the end of the training. But there was a massive shift and that played a big part as well. Because I remember when I went into the training, when you do your training, look, they tell you, this training should come with some health warnings. If you're in a relationship now, at the end of the training, you might not be in the relationship anymore. You might be sitting there thinking you're straight, it's at the end of training, you realise you're gay. That was me. That was me. It was part of my training.
00:41:50
Speaker
We came out in a bit of a training because she connected with a sexuality. So we went into my training going, oh, geez, I hope I'm ready. We're still going to be together. Oh, I told you. I was kind of going, oh, here we go.
00:42:06
Speaker
that I've really been hoping to, but this is absolute fact because I knew there was stuff there on my side. I was like, he's not aware of it yet. I knew it was there and she was like, oh, it's all coming out. It told nowhere to hide.
00:42:23
Speaker
I was like, circles. I mean, that didn't get away, to be fair. I've never gotten away with anything. It's always extremely, whatever goes out of traditional roles and relationships, any template, any construct of those has always been chucked out the way since day one, but most especially since the training.
00:42:42
Speaker
So as we went through our whole journey there, so that was fun. But yeah, so it has helped. I have to say that because Toma helped us from a relationship point of view, from a parenting point of view, I feel I'm a better human being because of it. And definitely the transition into being polyamorous. I think the fact that we are psychotherapists give us a huge advantage because you have to have a capacity to
00:43:09
Speaker
Be aware of your needs in the moment, in real time, then be able to express them to the other person or the other people in real time. I mean, that is a huge, huge, and I can't remember years ago, I wouldn't have known my needs up until a few weeks later.
00:43:26
Speaker
They were taking months to actually even bring up those needs to the person. So where in this situation is like, literally, because we're psychotherapists, we're so, so constantly working on being self-aware. You are aware of it in the moment and in real time you ask for them and boom, it's either done or negotiated or not. That's, that's, that's the real key. Americans are about to be saturated with people becoming therapists now because it just, it's probably cheaper than relationship therapy. Just become a therapist yourself.
00:43:57
Speaker
It's actually probably not. I suppose we've kind of mentioned the word pioneers,
Experiences as Queer Parents
00:44:03
Speaker
mentors, just kind of like amazing queer individuals that accomplished a lot, but I want to bring it back to Phoenix and Xavier if I can. Your experiences of being parents and queer parenting, and what has your experience of that been, if you don't mind touching on that briefly? Or as long as you want?
00:44:19
Speaker
Both our children are unquestionably an absolute gift. But even in the nature of how we decided to bring children into the world, Dil carried Phoenix, I carried Xavier.
00:44:31
Speaker
There's huge attachment stuff in that for a couple, for the non-carrying partner, for the carrying partner. There's incredible stuff that is there and that that brings up. Even that was a huge gift. I always described Phoenix as my teacher and Xavier as my guide. They each hold very, very different roles for me.
00:44:51
Speaker
in terms of what they have chosen to teach me and bring to me in their decision to come into my world in the way that they did. In terms of queer parenting, on a more tangible go-to level, Xavier, the experience I described with his gender fluid journey and identity, the stunning and the sublime of that
00:45:13
Speaker
was incredible and it really brought back to us as parents where just that incredibly protective at times extremely fearful instinct that we have and that great, great need to protect our children. But on that front with Xavier from moment one and it remains to this day the deep, deep trust that I have in him.
00:45:33
Speaker
Xavier is a child who brought that to us at the time that was right for him. And at times, and this is why I absolutely adore it. I talk to parents, I talk to other parents about this. It's so important to let our children push boundaries, to push us.
00:45:49
Speaker
within the remit of, of course, this frustration with the parent. I understand that. I've experienced that. I'm not so sure about that. But it does bite you in the ass. Of course it bites you in the ass. And you're not always saying, I can't always meet it. But my word, do I admire it? Because they're not really, they're not putting, it's not about them pushing boundaries with us. They're pushing boundaries towards the world. That's what we want in our kids. Because then they're going to do this, this, this, this, this, this with anything that they encounter in their world that they don't agree with.
00:46:19
Speaker
That's Phoenix. He pushes anything that does not feel right. He's absolutely the social justice advocate, that activist that's in Dil's blood in that way. Push, push, push. That's extremely exciting. Because when they come across, the amount of queer conversations we have, the amount of conversations we have about gender identity, if we don't include something, Xavier would be like, Mommy, you missed that.
00:46:42
Speaker
Why aren't you saying they? And it'd be really like, why aren't you doing it? And it'll just so natural and so powerful and so wonderful. That's an exciting world. That's an exciting world, not because of the world that they're coming into, because of the world that they're co-creating. Every time we do something like that, we push against something we're creating. We're constantly creating. None of us are passive recipients of our world. We're constant, energetic co-creators of it.
00:47:08
Speaker
That's the most exciting part of parenting for me. And then if you bring that into a queer context, head exploding. Because I also believe, and just this back to the healthcare segue point of earlier, sexuality, awareness, training for psychotherapists, deeply inadequate in our current psychotherapy culture, deeply inadequate, sexuality training, greater awareness, not just benefits.
00:47:32
Speaker
community and if it's everybody, that's one of our deepest vulnerabilities in this country. I want every individual in this country to be questioning and exploring their sexuality and their gender identity. They are powerful internal conversations and they're absolutely not exclusive to us. We actually move them forward by the nature of our needs if you think about what our community does in that landscape.
00:47:55
Speaker
They like clapping. I feel like just going for H. Fantastic. I'm reminded of a quote that I came across when Phoenix was born. This Charles Thoreau is like an American abolitionist. Every child, the world begins again. Every child begins again.
00:48:14
Speaker
So that's the responsibility that I feel every day on my shoulders in relation to my responsibility to Phoenix and Xavier in relation to helping them be these credible, kind, compassionate human beings who can go into the world and change the world.
00:48:36
Speaker
just by being themselves. I don't want them to feel like they have to be an activist, like myself, and having to agitate and be at the front of all the barters. Just by being themselves, they will change the world. So they don't have to do anything. They don't have to. Very interestingly, now again, with having transitioned into being polyamorous, my partner, Caroline, has two children.
00:49:05
Speaker
So now I've got four kids. I went from having two kids to four kids. Yeah. So, so it's incredible that I actually have now these two new kids that I am creating incredible relationship and attachment. I'm attached to them. They're attached to me and they are attached to Phoenix and Xavier. So we have this little tribe of little activists.
00:49:28
Speaker
They're all little activists because Caroline was very much parented at her children, very similar to us. So there is no wonder why the four of them get on like a house on fire. So I have huge hope for the future of this world because there's four little beings who are going to make big, big contributions.
00:49:46
Speaker
And guess what? Phoenix absolutely adores your podcast. He will like, mommy, I want to listen to that podcast. I love it. Thanks for listening. Thanks Phoenix. Feel free to come on and be a guest. Listen folks. Thank you so much for coming on. I see like that was such a wonderful, wonderful conversation. I have about 10 million other questions, but maybe you'll come back on another time and we can get through them all.
00:50:13
Speaker
Thank you so much. Amazing. You guys are amazing. Keep doing what you're doing. The more queer therapists out there speaking your truth, the better the better the space and the better the world.
Closing and Podcast Mission
00:50:26
Speaker
Echo that interface you guys are creating with this podcast. Echo that so very, very, very deeply. Thank you so much. Appreciate you being here. I want to actually leave us on just something that I'm retouched on and that's life and joy. And let's try and bring in that life and joy in every aspect of life.
00:50:42
Speaker
Thank you so much once again, everyone, for listening to today's episode. Thank you so much to Anne-Marie Toole and Dil Vikramasinghe, co-founders of Inside Matters and both Psychotherapists. Thank you for joining us and giving your insights today.
00:50:57
Speaker
We do apologize for the slight audio glitches in certain parts of our episode today. That's just what happens when you try and fit four enthusiastically passionate queers into three microphones. We hope you enjoyed it regardless, and we look forward to having you again on the Plainly Queer podcast. And remember, we're not obviously different, just Plainly Queer.