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An Oral History Of Mad Men, Part II: Superfan Roundtable
275 Plays9 months ago
A marvelous and mostly mature roundtable discussion with a mob of Mad Men maniacs.
For part two of our Oral History of Mad Men, we hop in the way back machine to find out what our roundtable of guests were doing in and around the year 2007 (arguably, one of the last good years on Earth) and what initially drew them to the show. We explore the show’s cultural impact, social commentary, and the influence it had on each of our guests.
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Transcript
Introduction and Event Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome. We are honored that each one of you would sacrifice your time on this, the most cherished of holidays, St. Valentine's Day. Of course, I'm talking about our Apocalypse Duds Mad Men Roundtable, sponsored generously by Lucky Strike, Old Crow, Brooks Brothers, and Colt. Literally thousands of man hours, woman hours, and non-binary hours all boil down to this moment. Gathered here this evening at the Sugarberry Ham Amphitheater in freezing New York, New York, February 14th,
00:00:30
Speaker
Valentine's Day 2024 at 7 30 ish p.m. Eastern Standard Time.
Panelist Introductions and Expertise
00:00:37
Speaker
The stage is set.
00:00:39
Speaker
Dedicated and eager listeners, our candidates may seem familiar to you. This is because they've already passed our legendarily rigorous vetting process and have shown an innate ability to articulate even the most complex of points. Each is an expert in a varied art. Our powerful panelists will now have one minute each to describe in as much detail as possible what they do and why they're experts on Mad Men. For the one person in the audience who has not listened to every one of our episodes forward and backward we present,
00:01:09
Speaker
Darren Johnston, menswear activist, ha, menswear artist, historian, black ivy black belt, ZGB, preppiest of witches, writer and tastemaker, Brett White, pop culture encyclopedia and drag star, orange cat fanatic, Sam Rockwell, mid-century magician, model and movie maven.
00:01:37
Speaker
So I guess, Darren, if you could start us off. Absolutely. Uh, let's see, describe myself. Uh, I've been an enthusiast. I say I've been in this, uh, probably about 25 years or so, been collecting Brooks Brothers and what have you. And then.
00:01:56
Speaker
Not only am I interested in clothing, but I'm interested in like the sociological aspects of clothing and how it relates to the individual, right? Not only just wearing the clothes, but how does that relate to the person? And how does that relate to their, you know, their self, their sense of self? That's what fascinates me also about vintage clothing. Excellent. That's a man after my own heart. Zoe?
00:02:27
Speaker
I'm a writer, illustrator, and editor, working in antiques mostly, but also I've been in menswear for about five years now, and ten of you include my time at J.Crew, and I am interested in clothing and its sociological implications, and how things tend to just come back that classic styles will always endure, which is something we'll be talking quite a bit about tonight.
00:02:56
Speaker
Excellent. Thank you, Brett. Hi, I am Brett White. I'm a pop culture journalist, TV critic, et cetera. I'm from the senior reporter, producer from decider.com. I've hosted bus, have seen TV podcast. I have always worn clothes. So therefore I've always worn clothes.
00:03:22
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I've been taking it seriously for 10 years. And I am also a drag queen named Barb Hardley in my spare time. But, you know, what is time anymore? And, you know, that's that's the tip of the iceberg. So there'll be more, I'm sure. And last but not least, Tim,
00:03:46
Speaker
Hey, so I am a costumer in the film industry in Atlanta. And my love and my background is specifically in period clothing, a very, very long time collector of most things mid-century. And it just seems as time goes on, I just collect older and older.
00:04:11
Speaker
But my I have a master's in really in vintage and historic dress and all the sociological things that we have discussed. So I think we all have a common point there. But yeah, I've just always loved clothes and I love historic clothing and the history of
00:04:35
Speaker
close in relation to cultural history. And I love taking all of that with me whenever I am costuming on period shows and movies. I really don't think we could have compiled a better group of four people based on those answers. So yeah, guys, thank you all for joining.
Personal Fashion Stories and Mad Men Discovery
00:04:59
Speaker
This is a fun project that Connor and I have been kicking around for a long time. We are very excited to get started and to share this project. Let's go the same route. Starting with Darren.
00:05:20
Speaker
then Zoe, then Brett, then Sam. Give us a quick synopsis of what you were doing in 2007 when Mad Men premiered and what kind of stuff were you wearing? Oh wow, 2007. I was probably getting married actually. I got married that year and I remember I was wearing
00:05:47
Speaker
more Italian, maybe Italian clothes. I had a little mix of Italian clothes, but it was mostly like Ralph Lauren when he was making those Cornelliani pieces that were sort of English and Ivy, but they were made in Italy. So it had this weird dichotomy of, you know, of influences in the, in the, in the clothes that I was wearing. And I was actually coming back from a plane trip from Chicago where my wife at the time was living. And Mad Men was on the,
00:06:14
Speaker
you know, on the movie list of, you know, things you could watch. And I watched the first four or five episodes and after that I was like hooked. I was like, this is so compelling and so different. And so nuanced. I just binged it after, you know, when I got home on demand and I just watched every season from that point on. So. Hell yes. Yeah. Oh.
00:06:42
Speaker
Oh, I'm next. Yeah. Yeah. So what you got going on in 2007 and what are you wearing? In 2007, I was a sophomore in high school. Okay. I feel very old now. Thank you. And I was wearing when I wasn't in my school uniform, I was wearing
00:07:05
Speaker
skinny jeans, bow flats, as much rugby Ralph Lauren as I could get my grubby little mits on and everything that entails. A friend actually asked me today if I had any icons, style icons in high school and Blair Waldorf from Gossip Girl came right out my mouth
00:07:23
Speaker
But I watched Mad Men for the first time with my parents, because it was coming on TV. And after it was over, we all were just slack-dawed, because I watched everything with my parents. All the aged sopranos, six feet under. Oh, wow. All right. Yeah. And after that, it was just like, wait, this is on cable? So from there on, we were hooked.
00:07:50
Speaker
Nice. Nice. Oh, yeah. And Brett? My turn. Yes, sir. Yeah, I got it. I got it down. So, summer 2007, I moved to New York City. I graduated college a year prior, so I moved to New York City. I had just taken my improv 301 at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater, so therefore, I am
00:08:13
Speaker
uh wearing black frame glasses converse jeans that i have walked the excess uh length off of instead of getting hemmed very short legs uh strokes t-shirts decemberous t-shirts uh vint uh thrift store plaid button downs uh corduroy jacket um or corduroy uh blazer i mean this is kind of like the peak of indie sleaze also
00:08:40
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, this is that that's Yeah, yeah, I in college, my colleges were 02 to 06. So that's strokes, fly stripes, right? Right. You know, Walkman, etc. And I was in a poll. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very big into the college radio. I was a radio DJ.
00:08:57
Speaker
uh and yeah and uh i didn't start watching that man until 2008 or so because my mom got me turned on to it because she was like they all they're all smoking on tv all the time i remember this
00:09:12
Speaker
But what I immediately took to was that the dandier trappings or inclinations that I have always had were very much represented on that show, because I am also a huge Nick at night person as evidenced by the wall of old television behind me. And so it being a period piece really spoke to me and also a huge crush on Harry Crane
00:09:39
Speaker
uh, rich summer, but that, um, would prove to be dangerous. Um, except, uh, man, as a series goes on, looks just get better. Um, yeah, that's the, yeah. Oh, and also bring up a topic to bring up later is yes, I did perform madman improv twice.
00:09:59
Speaker
Oh, I play. Yeah. So yeah, we're going to get into that for sure. Take a pin in that one of them was for the. Yeah. Oh yeah. There's there's drunkest I've ever been in my life for one of them, but anyway. All right. My turn. Um, so good to know I'm not the youngest one. Um, I was going into my senior year of high school. Um, and.
00:10:29
Speaker
So at that time, also in school had to wear uniforms, but outside of school, I was, I don't know, I, I did my own thing. Like before we had uniforms, I really was wearing like full skirts with cardigans, like doing the whole, whether I knew it or not sixties thing. Um, and as a, you know, 17, 18 year old of the aughts also,
00:10:59
Speaker
definitely into the way too skinny jeans and the wet seal t-shirts and old forever 21 and Delia's and all of that. I was like shout out to structure and express men. I remember a structure store at the mall that I went to in high school. I never could afford anything there and this is long before I got a hot topic.
00:11:29
Speaker
So, yeah, structure. I was going to mention that like 2007, I moved to New York, so I've discovered H&M. Oh, yeah. I'm from Tennessee and we didn't have no H&M back there. Anytime any of my friends from college would go to New York and come back, they would come back with like, this is an H&M coat. We were all like, oh my God, it's so cool. And then, you know, now I understand what H&M's whole gig is. We should have been that impressed.
00:11:59
Speaker
A hundred percent. Yeah. I remember when the mall back at home in Ohio got its first H&M. I was in, it was probably actually around this time. Yeah. 2007, 2008. Yep. Cause it was kind of remarkable. Yeah, it really was. It was, it was just, we never had anything else like it. And I probably didn't start watching Mad Men until I was in university and like binge watched it.
00:12:30
Speaker
and then caught up and was able to watch it weekly. Yeah, I think that's how a lot of us started watching it. I did not get into it at the very beginning, but I think 2009, 2010, when it started being streamed on Hulu, would air at the day after. Yeah.
Impact of Mad Men on TV and Society
00:12:55
Speaker
Yeah, that was my shit. It just took off from there.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, Zoe made a good point about this being like on cable. And, you know, I'm not a, Brett is the pop culture historian here, but it did seem like one of the first shows of this type of caliber on cable television in the, you know, like I would wonder some thoughts on that.
00:13:33
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, cause, uh, I'm trying to think, Breaking Bad's premiere was January. Oh wait. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Because, uh, like Matt Weiner, well, first of all, uh, if you go listen to my podcast, must have seen TV, Matt Weiner started out as a staff writer on the CBS sitcom Becker.
00:13:51
Speaker
I'm starring Ted Danson in the late 90s. We covered an episode of it. I was like, written by Matt Weiner. What? So wild. I feel like, but then he didn't, he go, was he on six feet under? Like he had. He was on the sopranos. He was on the sopranos. Okay. Yeah. All right. Yeah. So he had like HBO cred and I think I was like trying to shop Mad Men around there and it wasn't like no one wanted this show and it wasn't until he went to AMC because of the time AMC was known for when I was in college news radio reruns.
00:14:20
Speaker
And then, remember when? W-E-N-N, which was like a 90s cable sitcom. There were very few of those then. And then AMC, it's always like those networks that have nothing to lose and everything to prove. It was just like, sure, we'll chuck a whole lot of money at you to make this show. Why not? We got whatever. And that's how AMC then became
00:14:45
Speaker
Essentially, you know an HBO but on cable like it immediately became prestigious Uh, hello. I mean, I don't know where it is now in 2024. Everything's everything's messed up now. Yeah, everything's streaming everything is streaming Yeah, they have Fargo now. So they're good. Oh, yeah, they're madmen was just so different in terms of um What it was about right because it starts off with this narrative and you think it's this
00:15:12
Speaker
Just straightforward story because it begins with him and it shows his life and at the end you realize that he's sort of like lying his whole way through You you come to the realization that the woman he's with is not even his wife at the end of the first episode of our record, right? so right away it establishes that this guy is like, yeah, not a good person and um that's what I thought was really interesting about the show right because
00:15:38
Speaker
It sort of set up this archetypical kind of old fashioned Gregory Peck kind of.
00:15:43
Speaker
archetype and at the end it sort of deflates it like saying okay this is not what you think you know and other shows have like built on this sort of premise like Game of Thrones has done it too it sort of subverts your expectations in a really good way and that's what I really liked about the show that's what drew me in because I like to be surprised I don't want to have something just wrote and just standard I want to I want to be drawn in by the complexity because you know that's what makes it interesting you know so
00:16:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Totally, totally. Sam, what drew you into the show initially? Like, you're, you know, you already said that you were unknowingly like, you know, in 2007 when it premiered into 60s period stuff. So what was it for you that really caught your attention? I mean, a big part of it probably was like the fashion.
00:16:43
Speaker
um that initially drew me into it just because of how well done it is and i've actually been i because i hadn't rewatched it since who knows when so i'm rewatched am i am i the only person that has watched this 10 plus times like i i feel like going to my knowledge you gotta be one of the only people on earth that has watched it
00:17:07
Speaker
uh yeah yeah this is i'm probably like three it is too emotionally heavy of a watch for me uh because i i it's such a it's such a touchstone in my life in terms of like the time period that it was on and like what i was doing it's so crystal clear in my brain and characters mean so much to me i mean i call it my favorite show but i probably haven't watched it in like
00:17:32
Speaker
It's hard. It's hard. It's really hard. It's really hard to like get back into. It's like drag race drag race. I got it all the time because I had a similar experience rewatching it. I think it was in 2001. It was during the COVID times when we actually had time to watch eight seasons or however, 93 episodes of one series. But I remember it was the first time I rewatched it since it came out on as it was coming out.
00:18:00
Speaker
And it was just, it was jarring in so many ways, just reliving it as an adult. It was just like, ooh, it hurt. A lot of it hurt. Right. Right. Yeah.
00:18:17
Speaker
It's, it's not, it's not. I, I am not weirdo that has gotten stoned as fuck and just like, this was the comfort show for, for a long time. And so there is something, I think I did rewatch it a whole lot. Like while it was on, I think like every time a new season would start, I would probably rewatch the last season and get ready. And for a while it was my comfort show, which I would always say, like, I don't know what this says about me mentally, but like, this is comforting to me.
00:18:43
Speaker
And, but I think like what I always found comforting about it was people loving their job and like giving their all to a job and a craft that they were honing. And that was at a time when I was trying to do that as well. Now I'm just defeated by life. Yeah. It's a very, it's like very American in that way. And I think like even more complicated because of that, that particular facet.
00:19:13
Speaker
Peggy is probably the purest example of that. She's the purest character on that show to me. I think she's sort of the beacon of goodness in that whole show because everyone around her is kind of despicable from Roger to Don to except for maybe Joan too. So the female characters on that show sort of anchor it.
00:19:36
Speaker
Um, and they provide the beacon of, okay, this is the standard and this is how we should be conducting ourselves. And the men are just running, running, running wild through that, that entire series and just doing all kinds of despicable things. So losing their minds.
00:19:55
Speaker
Right. My beloved Harry Quarane. Yeah. Yeah. Give him a little bit of power. Yeah, man. Zoey, what was the first thing that you remember as admittedly the youngest of the six of us here?
00:20:13
Speaker
kind of sticking out to you, you know, like my experience with it is not the same as anyone under the age of 20. So I would just like to know what really stuck out to you and like drew you into it. I was also very compelled by Peggy's story because I was in high school and I don't know what it's like now, but if you accidentally got pregnant, your life was over.
00:20:43
Speaker
And with Peggy going through all that, I mean, that was harrowing because I was afraid, you know, everyone's afraid, even if you're not even sexually active in high school, you're scared.
00:20:54
Speaker
That's what we do in America. But what got me the most, I think what stands out, I think it's the second, it's right at the beginning of the second season, is when Dawn goes to visit Peggy in the hospital, and she's just kind of zonked out after having her baby and not kind of catatonic, I would say. But he says to her, you're going to get out of here. And this never happened.
00:21:20
Speaker
it will shock you how much this never happened. And for me, that was just one of those moments I'll always remember like, whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Extremely heavy. Yeah. That's really, it took a season to get into it where it was just, you know, not kind of the stuff I'd seen in movies or anywhere else with, it took that existential left turn where it was just like, oh, we're all doing reality here. Okay.
00:21:48
Speaker
Yeah, there's a quote in the document that Wiener says, like, I wanted to do a series about the 60s. Every event in American history happened in the 1960s, like.
00:22:01
Speaker
The pill, the pill is the most like miraculous invention ever for of all time period. No pun intended. Um, and that's like, right. Right. I think that that's like, I think that that's a really good observation as well. That like, doesn't really get discussed, um, when talking about the show. So.
00:22:26
Speaker
But at the same time, it will, when Peggy is given the pill, she doesn't know how to use it properly.
Controversial Themes and Historical Contexts
00:22:33
Speaker
She doesn't know you have that waiting period before your hormones are all sorted out. Plus the doctor says to her, now if you're irresponsible with this, I will take it away. Right. Right. Yeah. It's indicative of the time I have friends who, who stopped watching
00:22:53
Speaker
in season one because they couldn't handle the rampant misogyny in it. Whereas in the same vein, I have older family members who couldn't watch it because they said, no, this is what it was like. And I don't need to see it again.
00:23:13
Speaker
That's a great point. That's what my grandmother says. It's supposed to be, see, it's supposed to be this, not this wistful look back. It's supposed to be this cautionary tale, supposed to be this like, okay, look how far we've come, but we actually haven't come that far in terms of how we think, right? We just don't act on some of these impulses, but given the chance, most people probably would. I mean, drink any office smoke and treat women like trash, you know, you know, dismiss other races and do all this stuff that was
00:23:43
Speaker
you know, very prominent during that time, you know, and, and it's supposed to be like, you're supposed to say, wow, it's not supposed to be a wow, Don Draper's so cool. It's supposed to be like, wow, this is supposed to make you think and say, we need to probably do better.
00:23:57
Speaker
and that's I think that was sort of one of the themes of the show and it sort of gets lost with all the other gloss the clothes and the fashion and Don and how cool he is and da da da da but it's supposed to be like hey this is not okay some of the things like the one gay character in there they didn't even give really credence to his storyline I mean what was his name was Sal I think yeah
00:24:20
Speaker
So yeah, which I mean it very pointedly like he You know don't finds out that he's gay doesn't say anything and then like a little while later. He doesn't he like refuses to uh Put out sexually for the lucky strike cigarettes, dude And because of that they're like, well you're fired and like you didn't like I remember Matt Weiner saying like we pointedly we will never see sal again and
00:24:44
Speaker
Like even even Paul Kinsey got like a nice little well, not nice. It was very bizarre when he came back like later. But it's like we will never see that again. We'll never see Sal again. He's got like that's that's how it was. And then then, you know, Bob Benson having an arc later on about also being gay, but having to be a con man like Don in order to be a homosexual in the like in the late 60s. Yeah.
00:25:13
Speaker
I don't know, but I would still, when I'm all, man, I would still trade if I could live back there. No, I'm a good one. It's an anti-hero problem, right? It's like the Joker, it's like Patrick Bateman. It's like all of these people are sort of idolized to an extent, but the initial intent of the work is not that at all.
00:25:39
Speaker
Yeah. Mm hmm. But it kind of what does it matter? Sort of. Yeah. Should teach us something. It's it's complicated. Yeah. Yeah. No, I said a lot of the. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Sort of gets got lost, I think, you know. So.
00:26:01
Speaker
This is something that I've thought about, like, you know, it's been almost 10 years since the finale season. And like, I have changed a lot in the past decade. I think we probably all have. And, you know, like, I remember watching this show.
00:26:21
Speaker
in when it was on air and these were things that were that were a conversation like oh you know people can't stay in the misogyny or whatever and then there were there were these conversations so like this is a really good point that you know there were a lot of underlying themes that i think did not necessarily get picked up on until more recently and
00:26:48
Speaker
You know, it's interesting to talk about this now. Like Zoe, what you got? I wonder, Sam, if you had a similar reaction that I did being in high school at the time when it came out and when we were watching it, that I realized when I went back and rewatched it a few years ago, that having seen it at such a young age, it had that impression on me of, oh, this is how adults behave.
00:27:20
Speaker
because I definitely, when I watched it again, I was just like, oh, that's where I learned that. I mean, didn't we all buy Lucky Strike unfiltered cigarettes? I don't know if I had like that, quite that realization.
00:27:47
Speaker
I mean, another thing that drew me into the show was how grounded in reality it felt, good or bad. It felt true of a time in little mannerisms that people had in things that were happening throughout the office, how people treated each other, all of those things. It felt very grounded in a
00:28:19
Speaker
And again, good or bad. And that's kind of what we've talked about is like people not wanting to watch it because of misogyny, which was grounded in the reality of everything. You can't, I feel like with some historic things, even if it's fiction, to portray it in a way that glosses over the negative stuff that happened,
00:28:46
Speaker
is an inappropriate way of portraying a history. We need to see every aspect of it, good or bad. And I think I picked up on more of those things, watching it as an adult rather than watching it as a late teens, early 20-year-old. That I definitely picked up on more and more.
00:29:13
Speaker
I think, because I just look, I am essentially what Peggy's age was. Elizabeth Olsen is like, not Elizabeth Olsen. Peggy Olsen is played by Elizabeth Moss. Anyway, no, but she's like two years older than me.
00:29:30
Speaker
I related strongly to Peggy's art because I, at that time, and this sounds wild and stupid, but like the UCB improv comedy world was so much like Starlight Cooper, Derber Price, but it's like, you know, working, you know, you're working so closely with and collaboratively with people who all share like your same aspiration. You're trying to be like the best at something. And in the case of like UCB at the time we were being sold a,
00:29:57
Speaker
Bill of Goods in terms of like Bobby Moynihan just got on SNL. Abby and Alana just saw Broad City. You're all gonna, so it's like, you know, working on pilots, going out and pitching and like trying so hard and you're watching, watching Mad Men and being like, I relate to this. Like that, that feeling, you know, the feeling of like we're working on the weekend, we're all like, loot the ties loose and we're laying on the ground, getting high, trying to think of an idea, like that kind of dedication to where your personal life and your professional life just
00:30:26
Speaker
become an amorphous thing. And I looked at it with envy. Yeah. So, yeah, I, it is weird. Like I looked at it more of like a peer level of like, this is what my life both is and what I would like it to do. I mean, it's not to say that. Is that good? You know, whatever. Yeah. The whole show, obviously it has its great points. I remember one episode that Roger has this party and I think, is it him? I think he comes out on stage in Blackface and I was remembering
00:30:57
Speaker
Oh, yeah, the yeah, the men's wedding, isn't it? Yeah, it's his wedding. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the reality, right. And it, and it's supposed to make them comfortable. Right. Instead of right saying, Okay, I mean, I'll just gloss it over, supposed to have to invoke a reaction, a negative reaction. Hopefully, I hopefully did that in some, some people probably like, yeah, see, people could make fun of people or not, you know, we judged for it back then.
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah, there's definitely a legion of assholes that watch this show and did not get any of this shit out of it that we are discussing. And I really don't want to know who those people are. They're not going to listen to the show. Yeah, they're not. They're not our audience. Probably loved them. You know, you could treat them like that. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:01
Speaker
I think part of that in that episode in particular, that's the same episode where Pete and Trudy have their amazing dance. But then at the end when Roger comes out in blackface,
00:32:16
Speaker
It's interesting to see the reactions in the crowd because like some people are like, oh, but then others like I think Don and Betty are just like, like on their face and just like, what? There's definitely a varied reaction that I think was another subtle part of how that show was cast and directed. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Everyone wasn't a
00:32:51
Speaker
you know, it's a TV show, of course, it's gonna have things that are animated
00:33:00
Speaker
Um, beyond maybe what was happening. I wasn't alive in the sixties. None of us were alive in the sixties. We don't know what happened, what happened, but you know, one of the biggest things for me as like a huge fan of the show was showing a lot of various viewpoints.
00:33:18
Speaker
Which, Zoe, you just mentioned, and that's not even something I thought of, but as the show progresses into the later years of the 60s, you've got the anti-Vietnam movement showing up. You've got these historical things. And so I feel like the people that did this really wanted to show a broadness.
00:33:43
Speaker
of like, hey, this was kind of the shit that was going on. Not totally concentrated on one particular thing, but just showing like, you know, like you said, not everyone is a virulent racist at this point. And there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of like, alternating timelines going, like happening at the same time.
00:34:08
Speaker
It wasn't super heavy handed. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It wasn't like beating a dead horse in a way, like it just kind of left things up to the viewer, which I think not a lot of media was doing at the time and not a lot of media really does
Character Development and Historical Accuracy
00:34:26
Speaker
now. Yeah, it is. Go ahead. I think in a way, a way to just just real quick, like, especially thinking about, you know,
00:34:37
Speaker
a period show that I've worked on and other shows too, it doesn't seem to treat the viewer as though they're stupid and trying to like over explain. You either need to have a knowledge or if you're curious, you're going to go figure it out. And with so many things that they use in the show as true points in history,
00:35:05
Speaker
to then create things around, whether it was like tragic events or actual ad campaigns or whatever it is, it hopes that the viewer has a certain, I think, level of intelligence or curiosity to figure out what maybe is real.
00:35:24
Speaker
and also just like the way to do subtle long story arcs and character arcs and I just I love like um you know if you go back and watch season one you're like oh my god that character was in season one there's so many like just like long
00:35:40
Speaker
Yeah, really good, uh, really good, uh, story arcs. I mean, when you're saying like that about, you know, having to know about, uh, go and look up things, I made me think of the, the episode where like Sally is staying with her grand, I think her grandmother's watching her at their like big house out in wherever, whenever Betty's married to that drip of a. Yeah. And there was like, it was like a real. Sorry. Wasn't he, he was on the Kissinger campaign in the show. Oh God.
00:36:10
Speaker
And fucking, yeah. Rest in peace. Have to know. Rest in peace, Kissinger. Go ahead, Brad. I know, but the night that the grandmother was watching, she was glued to the TV because there was a serial killer on the loose in the neighborhood or whatever. And it's like, yes, this is an actual... Was it a nurse murderer or something?
00:36:33
Speaker
This is a real thing that happened. So like, but that isn't like the moon landing, you know, it's a tiny little nugget of history that they were like, we can mind that and like have it actually add some context and whatnot. Oh, yeah. And I think one more thing about the reality and imposing the reality upon the viewer and
00:36:59
Speaker
creating these avenues for further research is that it's not the Dick Van Dyke show. Really interesting that they used, I don't, I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but if they used the concept of an ad company and an ad man.
00:37:20
Speaker
from this kind of stamp, because I mean, the Dick Van Dyke show is just a great time, but I can't watch it now, because it's like, I keep thinking, I keep expecting a Mad Men type scenario to come. What do you love to write that stamp? That reboot. But the thing about it is that you can't, they take that template, and they make it into what was.
00:37:49
Speaker
rather than the idealization. And there's always that kind of American dream comparison that we get. That's a great point, Joey. I think probably one of the inspirations for that show is probably the man in the great final suit. I don't know if you guys are familiar with that story.
00:38:06
Speaker
or that it was a movie, I think it was a book, and it's about this guy's disillusionment with the corporate, you know, Meilu that he finds himself in after, I believe, World War II, and his journey to self, whatever actualization or realization at the end of the story. And I think some of that sort of plays into Mad Men, like it's this
00:38:27
Speaker
Let's go to our typical story of legitimacy, right? Like you could probably say, like the godfather or stuff like that. He starts out as this illicit guy, but his ultimate quest, the godfather, is to be legitimate, to be respected, to be accepted into main society. And I think that's what Don's arc is all about, is that he's the son of a prostitute.
00:38:49
Speaker
And he knows that he's probably deep down, he's started, he's wondering if, am I any good? Am I like my father or my mother? Am I trash? What am I? And, you know, he gets in with Roger and he enters this world. And that's something that they really don't talk about. But God's not of that class. He wouldn't be welcomed in the door. But because he's associated with Roger and because of the status of his job, he's welcomed into
00:39:15
Speaker
these these these places you know as this person you know and and what sets it up the the interest for me is that he knows he's not he knows he doesn't belong that but he's he's managed to sneak in so and saltburn's a hot topic right now with the pulling from the talented mr ripley the works of patricia highsmith and
00:39:42
Speaker
I think quite a lot of that went into Mad Men along with John Cheever and James Salter and all those mid-century authors who were just on the cusp of being like, oh no, this is not what we were promised after World War II. What's going on here? So yeah, I agree with Lauren. For sure. Cheever is an interesting one.
00:40:09
Speaker
Yeah, especially if you watch The Swimmer with Burt Lancaster, it has, that's, there's a weird congruency between he and Don River that I haven't really nailed down yet, but I'll get there. Yeah. Well, Don was a swimmer, right? Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:31
Speaker
So if we can lighten it up a little bit, let's go through favorite characters. Starting, let's go back to front of this one. Sam, who is your favorite character? I think, I mean, it should become as no surprise. I think because I'm a redhead and seeing like a hot redhead on television, I was like, no, it's my girl.
00:40:59
Speaker
I mean, I've always loved Joan and I love her, like her character growth throughout the show. And like you get to see at the beginning of the show, she's very much the like, you know, sex pot of the office. And then as the show goes on, you actually learn more about who she is and her ambitions and all of that stuff. But I mean, she's just has a, I love her so much.
00:41:26
Speaker
Well, she, like, to me has always seemed like the head bitch in charge, no matter what the fuck was happening. And like, you know, knowing you, like, Sam and Arco's friends, like, you know, it's just like, it's that energy that is just exuding.
00:41:46
Speaker
Yeah, that makes total sense. I like her as a... Joan is the fucking goat of that show. Not my favorite character personally, but overall. Yeah, I can't think of a better overall character. Yeah.
00:42:05
Speaker
Brett, what you got for a favorite gig? Um, God, all of them. So... So, I mean... Okay, so I came out to myself in 2005, and so this show started in 2007. So I will say that, like, Rich Summers, Harry Crane, and Michael Gladys as Paul Kinsey are two very formative early crushes for me.
00:42:27
Speaker
Uh, it's like I have very very special place in my heart and also just Paul Kinsey as like the bearded ascot wearing cardigan wearing like pipe smoking Uh hoping that he can be a screenwriter like, you know, like I I love I love that character so much Uh, and I remained a ride or die for harry Even as he went completely off the rails, um best dressed character of the show though by the end by far, uh, my style icon perfect
00:42:56
Speaker
um lame lane lane price absolutely which is jesus christ that's that goes in horrible directions uh and i was stan riso for halloween once so god yeah no i mean like it's it is everyone it is uh
00:43:16
Speaker
Oh, man. Yeah, but also just like Joan and Peggy are just so fucking good. God, just you want to burn the amount of times I picture Peggy and Joan in the elevator being like, I want to burn this whole place to the ground. Big move. All right, Zoe, you're up.
00:43:47
Speaker
My knee-jerk reaction to this question was, Don, because... Okay, that's not expected. Okay, well my, but then I thought that's a bit basic of me because that's, you know, but then I thought about it more, I think, and came up with Trudy Campbell.
00:44:08
Speaker
I love her. She's flawless in every scene, everything she appears, every time she appears, it's like something good happens or something ridiculous, but she's always like, she's another one of those backbones of the show that I think you mentioned earlier, Darren, that are just constant badass. Like she, for some reason she married Pete Campbell, but then he deals with it.
00:44:38
Speaker
right on the law in such a way that is sublime i love and yeah she's another one that all through the seasons is just so well dressed and looks great and yeah it goes with the times very well yeah uh i think finally there i think she has the broadest arc in terms of how she uh matures um
00:45:08
Speaker
She starts out this like, not frumpy, but just, you know, very conservative event. And then just blossoms into this incredible, you know, powerhouse. And I think Don sort of sees himself in Peggy and he sees, matter of fact, his mentorship of Peggy is probably one of the few redeeming things that he does in that show and sort of nurtures her, you know, through and how she becomes this master ad person. She's definitely one of my favorites and Bert Cooper. Bert Cooper, I love Bert Cooper.
00:45:37
Speaker
I love him because they use him like this wise man kind of thing. You know, you have to take off his shoes when you go see him. And it's weird, weird, weird tentacle porn. You know, he's so awesome. Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:00
Speaker
And I love the episode when he sort of confronts Bert and says, Don is not who I, who he says he is, he's blah, blah, blah, blah. He's somebody else. And he said, what did he say? He said that the person, Don is a man whoever, yeah, he says, I think he just says, I think he just says, who cares? Something along those lines. And he said right now, Don Draper's in this room. And I was like, what the heck? This is so cool. And so wise, right?
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, I love that episode where he gets the art piece and he asks people to come into his office to like view the art piece and tell them what they get out of it. And no one has an answer because there is no answer. Like this dude was just like a weirdo and you know, like was, oh Zoe, please.
00:46:54
Speaker
And just blew my mind. I love Burt Cooper.
00:47:04
Speaker
So that, especially, it's a Mark Rothko. And I remember- Right, right. I can't remember. Yeah. I remember at the time, one of my art history girlies was so mad at the character that eventually becomes Roger's wife because she goes, and it's just a bunch of splotchy squares. And there was great intense at that, that she like kind of fell off the show. And I was just like,
00:47:32
Speaker
That's a character point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People who love abstract expressions. Right. Right. I know shit about art. I could not tell you what that art piece means. Yeah. It was just a really funny part of that show for me. Darren.
00:47:57
Speaker
We know that you are a collector of old clothing magazines, particularly, I don't know how far back your collection goes, but, you know, have you noticed since you're a huge fan of the show and the space in advertising, have you noticed some like trends in the ads from your old magazines that you've seen? Mostly from 1984 to 2000 and also from
00:48:28
Speaker
1957 to 68. So yeah, I mean, Don's clothes are pretty much period correct in terms of what he wears. It's more along the lines of what JFK used to wear. It's probably Brooks Brothers, but it's two button, right? Because Brooks Brothers had this line where they had the sack suits, which was three roll to the straight, you know, hanging jacket and the platform pants, but they also had another line, I believe at that time, that was a two button.
00:48:56
Speaker
um with a swimmer pant a shorter jacket and that's sort of what Don's deal is right because they had this weird kind of hybrid thing going on too you know stock jackets and sack suits are sort of defined by their single vents and some of some of Don's jackets have double vents which is you know an opposition to that so it and it's true because when you look at you know some of the movies from that time period
00:49:21
Speaker
you do have this sort of matchup. You have the three-year-old two-bit jackets, but again you have the double flap pockets and you have the what's called frog pockets, which aren't like on the seam of trousers, but they're in the front sort of like a jean style type of trouser. So you had this weird mix of things going on in the 60s and I think Don's clothes sort of stay true to that in terms of you know what I've seen in the magazines and also in old films. So
00:49:50
Speaker
Nice to open it up. Does does anyone else have like thoughts on the period correct wardrobe? And and or not how period correct some things were I just I love there's like, you know, I love how they made it a moment I don't even know it's like season four or five when there's they're all at like a party at dawn's I think and all the men show up and they are all wearing the most bearish
00:50:16
Speaker
lasers it's like all of a sudden it's just like but like that really does like mark this like sea change uh in terms of like the series because like we are now entering the late 60s and oh
00:50:31
Speaker
that that is I think that's also maybe the same here in the episode where like Harry cream pulls up in that convertible and he's wearing like the mustard yellow like coat and like the huge neckerchief of like just oh yeah that that's when like the show really amped up into my into my neck of the woods
00:50:59
Speaker
That's funny because that's when for me, the show start, I started to be like, Oh no. All this questionable facial hair and just like, Oh yeah, this is great. This is so good. For men who did not or not should not have been, they really did keep Campbell dirty though. I mean, he's not a likable character at all, but good God did they put him through the ringer. He probably was, he at the end of that show, it was just like,
00:51:29
Speaker
Where are they now? Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, just to see what you have to say, Sam, as a complete expert. I mean, especially now like rewatching it as someone who actively works in film and television and like does this for a living now.
00:51:59
Speaker
Um, there are things that I am impressed with, uh, when it comes to like little details of like, you know, we see, we see people getting dressed or undressed quite often. Um, and so ensuring that everything, you know, tip to tail is correct. Um,
00:52:27
Speaker
Even I have to, like just looking at like the background actors, it's pretty clear to me, especially with the women, like I can tell that all of them have the right undergarments on, which is a big bonus and a big plus, like where the boobs sit or in the right spot and all of those things that are super important that I have to explain to background all the time when I'm working with them. Yes, I do need you to put on this girdle.
00:52:56
Speaker
please don't complain to me about it. And I think I've talked to Matt about this before, but even little things in actions that people do, one of my favorite things as I watch the show is every time a woman answers the phone, she takes her clip earring off. Every time. Earring comes off, earring goes, like phone goes up. And it's just those little actions and little things where
00:53:22
Speaker
the costume is part of the storytelling, even with like the pocket squares that each man has. Each pocket square to each man is a little different, whether it's how it's folded or the design of it. And it says something about each of those people. So those also like little details of storytelling through the clothing, through like historical accuracy is also stuff that I love looking at. And now finally, I think appreciating more
00:53:53
Speaker
now as someone who like actually does this. Speaking of background, I just remembered I had a friend who was on camera as a background actor, but he, it was when he was living out in LA and he got right to the front of the line because he brought his own 1960s suit. Nice, nice. It was such a good suit that they put him right next to Don. So I could see, I could completely see my friend Christian when I rewatched the episode and I was like,
00:54:24
Speaker
Okay, okay, real, real quick. Zoe, can you find a still of this and or take a screenshot because that's some shit we need to post. Oh yeah, sure. I'll ask him. I'm sure he has one. Oh, oh yeah. Well, oh, oh, piggyback question. What was the suit out of curiosity? I'm, I'm trying to remember. It was like a gray blue. I want to say it was sharkskin. Oh, nice.
00:54:53
Speaker
But I might, it was in a nightclub scene, I think. Okay, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, but it was a good one, and he's a good winner, so it makes sense that he would have this.
00:55:06
Speaker
Really psyched to see that. We were looking for like photos to promote this yesterday. And there's like, I don't remember what season it is, but I found one, like a promotional photo with Pete in a like teal striped skin suit, which is something I would never wear in my life. But I was just like, that looks fucking crazy. Everything Harry Crane wears in the last two seasons, that's what I want my, that's my ideal wardrobe.
00:55:37
Speaker
And I love the funny like, but also like, it's super interesting that he starts out in 1960 as like the one guy that wears the bow tie, but like the horn room glasses, very me. He's very, he, he cheats on his wife one time and like, it's like, Oh my God, you know, but like, as I will also defend Harry Craig.
00:55:54
Speaker
in saying that he's the only person that thought television was going to be a thing and that they should, you know, and he was like the one, but also Joe got him that job. So also like, fuck him. Cause he didn't get it. But like, but then like, I love that. Like they, his wardrobe, they show like the Hollywoodification, like he's out in LA. He's got this horrible sunburn. I keep thinking, um,
00:56:19
Speaker
The image that's always burned in my mind is of Harry in like the tiny, tiny swim trunks and like the open like Havana, like kind of like shirt in his hotel room and then like Palm Springs and he's on the phone with Don. It's like burned into my head because it's adorable and also great. It's something about like you say like, don't use, don't use traveler's checks to pay for your hookers or something like what Don says on that. Really good. Really, really good moment.
00:56:48
Speaker
the show is about it's kind of about the details like um are the details important are the details real uh and so to that end there were lots of products that became popular sort of inexplicable i guess not inexplicably but you know your tie bars your
00:57:13
Speaker
office supplies like desk lamp type artifacts you know so Zoe I was gonna ask if you had any thoughts about that like from this year back to those years like was it all pointless I guess like senseless consumerism in the 60s or now now
Cultural Influence and Fashion Trends
00:57:40
Speaker
It's hard to say. I mean, I know there was a run on bar carts as soon as the show came out. And I don't know how many of them were brought into offices. Not used as in the show. Yeah. And there was a, I saw, I should have looked this up before I came on, but there, they found the actual bar cart that they used for Dawn's office because it's, it's a design. It's a style with a designer that you can still find.
00:58:23
Speaker
But it was never so popular as it was in I'd say like the past 10, 15 years that it can command insane prices that my mother, she loves it because that's what she liked when she was growing up because it was just becoming the thing in the 60s. And it was so new and so sleek and so modern for the space age that they were coming through. And then we hit the bicentennial and that all went straight to hell.
00:58:34
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:55
Speaker
But then it came back. So it's yeah, it's it's I don't know about the consumerism part so much, but I think that there was definitely more of a move toward the Scandinavian toward the Swedish on the other end of IKEA. But then the kind of hunger for this sort of thing got ratcheted way up because it was more and more popular as the show went on. Yeah.
00:59:24
Speaker
And it has sort of lasted, I guess. I think that a lot of that stuff is still quite pricey. Yeah, I think there are so many repros of it, though. I mean, just think of all the jokes we've seen about the Eames chair. Yeah. So we'll start to know these styles, and they recognize them because they were also reproduced for great numbers. And that was one of the first times that this was really being done.
00:59:55
Speaker
So yeah, and especially at the time of the show, that's when consumerism really was on the rise. So it's an interesting mirroring effect that we see through these objects. It seems like Mad Men debuted. I'm now like trying to put it in context. It's like it feels like urban outfitters and Mad Men and H&M and like all of these things all really did start crystallizing around the same
01:00:22
Speaker
Thing I mean, I just remember like yeah in like yeah, I'm in circa 2008 2009 is like the most like it's price peak of Mainstream everything it just you know Halloween in New York City Everyone is in is in a 1960 suit, you know Right, right. Yeah, which is
01:00:46
Speaker
Yeah, they're going to L-string Vintage or Beacons Closet and finding some shit. Which is coincidentally around the time that I did two Madman improv shows of the New York City area.
01:00:57
Speaker
We gotta know. We gotta know. We gotta know about the Madman improv. I'm sorry. We have to know about it. The Creek and the Cave in Long Island City, which is also where I would get married like 10 years later. It was a Tex-Mex restaurant slash. In like 2008 or nine, like my team, we hosted a, every Halloween would host a themed improv show long from improv, not who's lying.
01:01:22
Speaker
Um, where it was always like, really, like we, the first year was like X-Men improv, which I spearheaded Buffy improv and like law and order improv. And then I feel like one year, like a couple of years later, we did Mad Men improv. And I was Harry crane, but the unfortunate thing is this was like season two, Harry crane. So I was like, I have no personality. But no, like it was, it was so fun. Everyone showed up.
01:01:52
Speaker
in, you know, their suits, but also we're like all like a 24, 25 year olds in New York City who are underemployed in a financial recession. So we're all, you know, we're trying, we're trying to get the looks down. But I remember we all that's like we all did a pomade for the first time.
01:02:10
Speaker
And we all ended up putting way too much in because we were like, it isn't looking like it does on television. Just keep adding more. And then it was in my hair for a week. That first show was very fun and very indicative of just how much of a moment Mad Men was having. I remember we had a scene where the guy playing Pete and someone else, and then the girl playing Peggy did the Charleston or whatever. That episode had just aired.
01:02:38
Speaker
And then, because they had heard that we did that show, Columbia's newspaper, the college, hired us to perform at their holiday party, which is a thing that's just like, well, we are not professionals. I don't know why they're doing this. This is very... And so...
01:02:59
Speaker
The strangest job ever of them having to stop the party so they could watch us do improv As as the cast of bad men and for that one I was Paul Kinsey But I was Paul Kinsey right after they had like abandoned him When they when they did that amazing heist episode where they went to the new office and he was like, where is everyone? so and then that was the night that we all were like it was a night that our age really hit and
01:03:27
Speaker
because we never I mean I hadn't been around college students and since I was in college and I was just so we all went to the bar I mean I got very drunk I mean people forgot phones uh it was it was a fun night um but you know it sounds like a wild night yeah you know just doing that bit improv like all the cool kids do
01:03:50
Speaker
That's the breath where you know where they sort of co-op the whole thing gets co-opted like J. Crew comes out with the Super t suits in the park or tie bars in the pocket square folder just right and then then I think Banana Republic does a whole bad man line and you see the madman. Yeah, I was like, oh my god
01:04:11
Speaker
that's the moment where it jumps the shot. And then you're like, okay, now this moment has passed. And it's not as cool as it was. I don't know why that happens. I think it's just, once it gets like co-opted in terms of like the general, you know, consciousness, it sort of starts to go downhill in terms of the viability of, you know what I mean? I don't know. Yeah. Oh. Mm-hmm.
01:04:41
Speaker
Totally. Zoe, you got something to say on this? When the Banana Republic line came out, I was working at J.Crew in Boston. And the manager of that Banana Republic came into J.Crew because they were having a
01:05:01
Speaker
a shop party that was Mad Men themed. And she said, yeah, none of our stuff is actually Mad Men at all. So I'm coming here. I remember that collection.
01:05:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's so fucking bad. So fucking bad. Like we were when we were talking about this was Zach Newton, we were all googling to remember like how terrible this was. And yeah, it like
01:05:38
Speaker
I don't know why they didn't just get Brooks Brothers to do that collab initially. Like, I know it's, you know, it's more expensive. It's not a mall store. Because they need to make a bunch of money. They are now. Yeah, they certainly are now. The Banana Republic shit was just so terrible. Like, all things considered. That was a great guess.
01:06:07
Speaker
from 2013. So that would have been a couple of years after the, yeah, like 2011. Yeah. Also, also not great. Not great. Yeah. One of the questions that you asked us about that, like what influence has Mad Men had or what did it have immediately? Yeah. On, on fashion then.
01:06:34
Speaker
I think in a lot of ways it did kind of bring us back from the ledge, from the edge, or even kind of hanging off the edge, because in the 2000s we were all masked. And I'll talk about this for days.
01:06:49
Speaker
of how, even now, I went back and I looked at my J. Crew catalogs from way back then. And I was just like, oh my God, we all wore this stuff. But then when Mad Men came out, I'm not sure, I know the skinny suits came post Mad Men, but for a minute they were pretty okay. But for women, we finally got classic silhouettes back for a minute.
01:07:15
Speaker
like stuff that actually conformed to the female body and made it look good rather than peplum tops paired with low-rise skinny flare jeans. The Mean Girls look. The Mean Girls look. That's back now. And gives me PTSD. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. But it's ironic this time, right? I don't know. I don't know.
01:07:43
Speaker
I'm just telling myself that. I don't mean to go on a tangent, but I really want to tell every Gen Z person wearing the shit that I saw in high school. That doesn't look good. It didn't look good then. It doesn't look good now. When I was in high school, all the girls were wearing bell-bottom jeans, and my mom was like, that didn't look good. Well, yeah, so this is my point. I was like, that's better than Ott's fashion.
01:08:13
Speaker
I know I love 70s style and I graduated in 02. And so I know this is just my parents reaction to me loving the shit that they were in the 70s. But yeah, like just come on y'all. Come on. Look, wearing, wearing four cammies
01:08:39
Speaker
with a dress and then wearing jeans under your dress and a weird belt and a scarf that's this thick and weird platform flip flops.
01:08:59
Speaker
didn't look cute when the girlies were wearing it to the cage choice award. Yeah. Into a thousand whatever. Because after that it's the black square toe shoes and it's the nylon, black nylon back for men and all black suits. I mean, 2000 is just, yeah, the going out shirt. Going out shirt. Yeah, the going out shirt. Yeah.
01:09:30
Speaker
I've had a number of discussions lately with some of my girlfriends about the whole like day to night wearing like business casual to the club as like an 18, 19 year old. What was that? Why did we do that? Which all brings us back to the fact that this point in time was like a catalyst for
01:09:59
Speaker
People like all of us wanting to dress better than what we saw. There we go.
01:10:07
Speaker
And I'm like, growing up, you know, Bob, I mean, my style icons are Bob Newhart and Robert Wagner. So, you know, take grain of salt, whatever. But like growing up loving, you know, growing up loving Nick at night. And then, you know, when I was in high school in college, I got super into the game show network and like Charles Nelson Riley and like, you know, and in 70s stuff. And so even like my odds was still filtered through the 60s and 70s. And I was looking around at everyone else like, oh, my God.
01:10:37
Speaker
god like i was dressed like a stroke you know right uh right these strokes not like i had a stroke um and so madman was this time where it's like oh finally everyone's caught up to me and and like it's and there's like oh this is great you know in a way um and then and then it moved on um i don't know what it moved on to moved on to everything and nothing all at once uh and i'm still
01:11:04
Speaker
Well, I think some of that too is the the rise and access of the internet. I mean, we can we can now bring that into it too is like, you know, would madmen have been as popular and had such a cultural impact had it not also been for things like the internet. And
01:11:26
Speaker
the impact of access to a trend that all of a sudden they'll have. I did that.
01:11:45
Speaker
The story behind that is like Mad Men season one, he got Christmas cards made in Dynamo, illustrated them, and he gave them out. And then Matt Weiner and AMC were like, oh, this art style, obviously. Yeah. Dynamo did my podcast art. Must have seen TV.
01:12:02
Speaker
But no, like the Mad Men yourself still have those as their avatars on like Facebook, Facebook, obviously. But then like the fact that not great Bob is still, I think that Mad Men's legacy could probably be boiled down to not great Bob. I didn't know that not great Bob was for Mad Men.
01:12:30
Speaker
Like I, how she found out, but she, I put something like that up. I think maybe the scene with Pete and she DM'd me like, I had no idea that was a Mad Men quote, but I've been saying, yeah, it ended that. Yeah. It turned into Lexicon. Yeah. And also just a great moment. It was like, plus mom disappears on a cruise. Right.
01:13:00
Speaker
Yeah, poetry in Mad Men also, which I think is like, not something that happens even now. Like they're not because Don reads a poem, I think in full. And I just was like,
01:13:20
Speaker
Like, who's writing this into the show? Yeah, and there's a whole account, I think it's Instagram, that's called Mad Men Reads, where they show every time a character reads. And it's like, yeah, they don't really ever address it, but all of the books are specifically selected for that. And much of them, many of them are done reading. Just a further layer to that show. And Pete's the most tragic character on that whole show. He's just so, so pathetic.
01:13:48
Speaker
Like when he gets in a fight with Lane, rip my heart out. Well, but also a very hot moment for Jared. Yeah, yeah. I got to say, like one of my favorite moments on this entire show is when they're like doing their Q
01:14:18
Speaker
from the English firm and Lane just like picks up the phone. Here's this boss, yeah, look at him. He's just like, happy Christmas and slams the phone. Gold. Fucking gold. The prelude to that Queensbury rules brawl that Roger and Pete have, oh no, I'm sorry, that Lane and Pete have.
01:14:44
Speaker
with right and Joan listening in in the next room on the dicta or with not the dictaphone but like through the speaker but they all three of them i think it's it's burt roger and don and they all stand up and roger's like i know cooler head should prevail but does anyone else want to see this and don so they can just have it out
01:15:11
Speaker
This is barbaric. That's what I love about about that is that on top of being like the best drama, it was also like the best comedy for a lot of the years it was on.
01:15:20
Speaker
Oh, it's fucking insane. These are people who are so well-written that they are also, like, real people are funny. Like, real people, especially like real people, are advertising. So, like, the fact that it was all, like, top of intelligence, what would actually happen? What would actually happen is people would be like, I 100% want to see this. I 100% am going to listen. You know, like, just so... Oh, so good.
01:15:48
Speaker
The lawn mower, of course, is like
01:15:54
Speaker
that yeah that was like miraculous or something just like amazing writing that was a freaky episode because that's also i think it's right after grandpa jean dies and sally thinks that the barbie that baby jean gives to her she thinks it's possessed and she tries to throw it out the window and then it ends up back in her room and she wakes up swimming i think that's the same episode that was a really spooky episode
01:16:22
Speaker
I was going to ask you if there are any spooky elements, witchy elements to your perception. Matthew Weiner is fantastic with dream sequences. And I remember this in the Sopranos
01:16:40
Speaker
where any dream sequence that Tony was having there's one in particular where he sees himself as the Italian immigrant coming to the door of some grand household and like talking through the screen door trying to call someone down and he just sees a pair of women's legs like just standing at the top of the stairs and then it cuts.
01:17:02
Speaker
Yeah, just amazing. Yeah, and there are quite a few of them in Mad Men like that, like when Betty is put under for her pregnancy or for her labor, like how they used to just knock women out so they didn't have to think about it anymore. That whole dream sequence is like you someone could write an article just on that.
01:17:23
Speaker
There's so much about like the subconscious and the consciousness in the id that that show kind of just blows through that you really have to go in looking for it in order to not conceive of it but to nail it down because there's so much like Jungian psychology that goes into that show that like it makes me
01:17:46
Speaker
It surprises me that Matthew Viner hasn't done anything since, except for that really bad book. He did the Romanovs on Amazon Prime, and that's which, you know. But that was also like eight years ago, six or seven years ago, a long time ago. I think sometimes you just like do it and then you're done with it.
01:18:08
Speaker
Yeah, too real. I mean, you like are really, really rich and you just like are not doing it anymore. I mean, Ed Danson is free. Becker could come back. I support Ted Danson working. I support Ted Danson working also. But yeah, y'all, thank you so much for coming on.
01:18:37
Speaker
Yeah, it's been a fun fucking discussion and I think people are going to enjoy it. Starting from the top with Darren. Tender's on. What do you think the show
01:19:02
Speaker
what's an impact? It's still impacting, I guess is the question. Yeah, and like between fashion, media, whatever, like I, we still think there's, you know, some sort of connection and what do you see? The only character on there who was really sort of, who would be considered Ivy was probably Pete, in terms of what he wore regularly. I think the enduring,
01:19:30
Speaker
legacy or interest in mid-century clothing probably sprung from that to a degree. I know Tom Brown had designed the shrunken Brooks Brothers suit and I think that predated Mad Men to some degree, but I think just the interest in, you know, Brooks Brothers and J Press and
01:19:51
Speaker
and over shop and all these classic menswear companies I think that was probably a legacy for a lot of young guys from that they got from that show and I think it continues on and as Zoe mentioned it goes into design as well you know I think you know guys are now conscious not only of wearing the clothes but also their whole environments are you know filed in a particular way and I think that
01:20:16
Speaker
sort of came from seeing that show how the style was just all encompassing. So I think that's probably one of the most enduring legacies of it. That was great, Darren. That was fucking great. Yeah, that was awesome. Awesome. I think
01:20:39
Speaker
One of the enduring qualities of Mad Men is its timelessness, and we've touched on that quite a bit throughout this conversation, that it's in a specific time, which makes it out of time, especially now, because it's so many years on from the 1960s.
01:20:59
Speaker
But because of that, we'll always be able to return to it in that little box of the 1960s. And I really think that people are going to continue returning to this show as a form of study, but also because we really haven't seen its likes since. There have been many imitators that tried to nail it like this, but I haven't seen, especially for, for cable. I mean, they, you know, they're a hundred series now.
01:21:26
Speaker
And this is when like series were really starting to become something to aspire to, not like, Oh, you're just on television sort of acting. So I think it's important that way, but also just the, the layers of it. Like there's so much to mind there. And just in a cinema, like in, as far as cinema goes, it really broke the mold in having something so
01:21:55
Speaker
cinematic for TV. We really, I mean, we thought there was HBO, but on cable, you never really, you didn't see that up until Mad Men. And even 10 years on, going back and watching it, it's like, it's still as potent as it was then. So we're going to be finding new meaning in the show for decades to come and people are still going to be talking about it. Yeah, it's going to be different in 30 years.
01:22:24
Speaker
It's on Amazon now, or it's on Amazon again now. It just went for rounds. It was on Netflix for a while, then Hulu. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Brett, you're up.
01:22:44
Speaker
It is like working in television criticism and stuff. The focus is so much on what is new and what is debuting and what is coming. And so like, in my profession, I feel like we don't really think about Mad Men as much as we should.
Conclusion and Mad Men's Enduring Legacy
01:23:03
Speaker
Because the focus is always so much on new, new, new, new, new, and then the proliferation of streaming services and just nonstop content and
01:23:10
Speaker
Nothing gets season twos, or if it does, it's like three years later. Like looking back at Mad Men is a very, it both like created the era that we live in now, but also feels like the kind of thing that just couldn't happen now. Like seven seasons over was like eight years. I remember like there was like a two year break between seasons and we all like lost our minds. Now I don't know when Severance season two is happening. Who knows?
01:23:39
Speaker
And I will say, like, as me as a as a critic, like, I don't know, I think I can kind of think of Mad Men as almost like a shorthand for a feeling of when I'm watching a thing. Man, like Mad Men scratches and or is the only show that I have watched in a very long time that like hits the nerve in my brain of like, this is just like everything operating at peak.
01:24:05
Speaker
performance and like a Disney Plus series should not be talking about such radical politics and taking its time and like Andor is a breath of fresh air and and it's it hits that same thing that like Mad Men did but like it's very yeah it's very very very rare for shows to do that um
01:24:29
Speaker
And all those, all those homes, the Sterling Cooper Draper price office design, absolutely perfect. That lives in my head. That's my happy place. My happy place. If I could time travel and have anyone dream job, it would be being an extra in the Christmas episode.
01:24:47
Speaker
Oh, God. Joan leads the conga line through the office. And it's like, imagine that day of wearing period clothing and just filling the most delightful episode. Every Christmas when I watch that episode, I'm like. And Sam finishes out. All right. I don't know. I mean, I guess I'm just kind of going to like build off of things that everybody else has said and also add
01:25:18
Speaker
Add my perspective as someone who like, again, I work in film. I can tell you right now that there is no way any production company streamer would put up the money to make a series like this. I can tell you that right now. Like the caliber that this show is done, like this period piece is done is not something that even films
01:25:48
Speaker
get and they did it over all of those years. And they did it at such a high degree, especially at a time when television still wasn't as quite as respected as a cinematic art form the way that it is now. And it's just, it's amazing to me. And I wish I could go back in time and work on the show. And like,
01:26:16
Speaker
I have access to a show that cares so deeply about historic accuracy from all departments. And I just, you know, I'm out working on a period show right now. And over the last couple of years, like I worked on First Ladies and we did from the late 1800s to the 2000s. And that was
01:26:44
Speaker
a lot and we didn't have the budget to do all of that, but we did it and it looked good, but it didn't look as good as badminton, which just did 10 years. So I think like I wish we could go back and I really wish that streaming services and all of everybody who creates content
01:27:11
Speaker
could kind of realize that this is something that people crave. It's original. It's not a remake. It's not a sequel. It's special. And sometimes you have to let things grow before you just cancel them at season two.
01:27:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I feel like you and Brett would probably be good friends because you probably have similar viewpoints. Anyway, y'all, thank you so much. This has been fucking fantastic, if I'm being honest. I'm dishonest, Matt.
01:27:53
Speaker
Am I ever being dishonest? No. Go for it. Sam, for the test of that. Y'all, thank you so much for coming on. So one last thing, each of you, Darren, Zoe, Brett and Sam, give your at so we can promote you and we'll do a collaboration post.
01:28:20
Speaker
DarrenJ201 on Instagram. That's nice. I'm ZG Burnett on Instagram, B-U-R-N-E-T-T and ZGBernet.com.
01:28:43
Speaker
I am at Brett white on Instagram and also at bar hardly on Instagram, depending on, you know, if you're looking for a menswear or drag. Hey, got both. And I am at owlista. O W L I S T a on Instagram or Sam K. Rockwell.com. Nice. Um, y'all thank you for listening.
01:29:08
Speaker
For the finale, we have a very special guest lined up. I don't think I should release that information yet. Yeah. I know the secret. Some of you do know the secret. What I was going to say is we've had an idea.
01:29:28
Speaker
Please, now see, I don't know that anyone will call us, but they could call us if they wanted to ask questions about the show. To someone who is on the show, we have a phone number, which is 202-573-9771. And I will probably even set up the voice mailbox by the time you are calling.
01:29:54
Speaker
Yeah, the guest that we are going to have on the finale of our oral history of menswear, or sorry, of Mad Men, as we know it, is Brian Bat, who plays Sal Romano. If you would like to ask Brian Bat questions, please send this, or call us and give us a voicemail.
01:30:22
Speaker
Also, if you would just like to leave comments about why Mad Men rules and you have a connection to it, please give us a call also. We want your Mad Men costume pictures. Yeah, we also want Mad Men costume pictures. Anything related to Mad Men, send it to us. We're at Apocalypse Studs on Instagram.
01:30:48
Speaker
apocalypse studs at gmail.com and Yes, stay tuned for the finale of our project Thanks