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Ep 24: Finding Balance in the Division of Domestic Labor with Zach Watson
135 Plays1 year ago
This week on the @bloomafterbaby podcast we're talking about the gender-based division of labor at home with Zach Watson. Zach is the creator of the wildly popular social media account @realzachthinkshare where he talks about things like invisible labor, the mental and emotional load, decision fatigue and equitable partnering, sharing annecdotes and examples that help make these concepts totally relatable.
In this episode we'll discuss:
- Exploring invisible labor and mental/emotional load in relation to mental health
- Examining tasks defaulting to moms, like child care, family scheduling, and home organization
- Discussing how these tasks accumulate and lead to overwhelm
- Highlighting the emotional toll of certain tasks, particularly child care
- Unpacking gender norms and standards contributing to the unequal distribution of invisible labor
- Offering solutions for achieving balance in relationships
How to Connect with Zach:
Instagram @realzachthinkshare
TikTok @zachthinkshare
Resources mentioned:
Fair Play by Eve Rodsky
Sponsors:
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Follow along with Bloom After Baby for all things maternal mental health: Instagram @bloomafterbaby [https://www.instagram.com/bloomafterbaby/?hl=en] and website bloomafterbaby.com [https://www.bloomafterbaby.com/]
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This podcast does not contain medical advice and is for entertainment purposes only.
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast & Guest
00:00:05
Speaker
All right. Hello. Welcome to Bloom After Baby, the podcast. This is Jen here today, and I'm so excited about today's episode. We have Zach Watson joining us, who I'm sure many of you are familiar with. Zach is the creator of the wildly popular social media account, Real Zach Thinkshare.
Explaining Invisible Labor & Mental Load
00:00:22
Speaker
where he talks about things like invisible labor and the mental and emotional load, decision fatigue, and equitable parenting. And he shares examples and anecdotes that help make these concepts totally relatable. But before we go any further, I know that these are likely new terms to many. So what is the mental load, emotional load, invisible labor?
00:00:44
Speaker
All of these terms are describing the unnoticed and uncompensated work that goes on behind the scenes to keep our households and families running. It's the direct childcare, it's household chores, it's prepared meals, managing schedules and appointments, researching, parenting information, maintaining social relationships, planning gatherings, it's all of the mental lists and to-dos and thoughts and worries.
Zach's Journey to Addressing Domestic Discrepancies
00:01:11
Speaker
And one of the most challenging things about the invisible load is that it is often rooted in our subconscious biases or expectations on gender norms that we might not recognize until they manifest in the domestic labor in our households, particularly after baby.
00:01:31
Speaker
And this was actually the case for Zach after becoming a father, Zach began recognizing the discrepancy around domestic duties and parenting that were showing up in his own relationship. And through his own revelations and reading the book Fair Play by E. Brodsky, Zach began identifying the underlying
00:01:51
Speaker
toxic myths and societal messages that have conditioned us to accept this unequal division of labor. He's now a Fair Play facilitator and is a leading expert and educator on this topic. So as I'm talking about all of this, one thought that might come to mind and a critique that Zach has admittedly received is, should Zach as a male be an expert
00:02:15
Speaker
on offering solutions to a problem that is predominantly a hardship for women or moms is he as a male, the right person to be sharing the message. And we get into that today during our conversation and why, in my opinion, it's a good thing. It's the action we need from
00:02:31
Speaker
the male have to close the gender gap that women and moms shouldn't have to be solely the ones responsible for fixing what's broken.
Mental Health Impact & Solutions for Balance
00:02:40
Speaker
Today, we dive deeper into the invisible labor and mental and emotional load as it relates to mental health and how certain tasks that often default to moms like direct childcare, managing family schedules, organizing the home, for example, can add up to
00:02:58
Speaker
overwhelm and how certain tasks like child care carry more emotional toll and how all of that relates to mental health. And we impact the different standards for men and women and why the invisible load often falls to moms plus some of the pressures and norms that dads face.
Zach's Content Creation Journey
00:03:14
Speaker
And don't worry, we will definitely also get into solutions, what you can start doing right now to find more balance in your relationship and some of the awesome resources that Zach offers for support. So with that, let's jump in.
00:03:28
Speaker
All right, so welcome, Zach. We're so thrilled to have a chance to connect with you today. Like I was telling you, we reference you both, Rachel and I, in our professional careers working with patients and with clients. And we both also have turned to you in our own parenthood journeys and navigating our own relationships. So we totally see you as kind of an expert in this field that we're going to talk about today. And so
00:03:52
Speaker
So honored to have you on. I think if it's okay with you, I'd love to start with a little bit of a background on your journey, both how you had this career transition to where you are right now, but also sort of the emotional mental revelation that you had that brought you to focusing on this work.
00:04:10
Speaker
Sure. I was an engineer in college, became a software developer. I followed Facebook's CFO, Sheryl Sandberg. She talks about the career jungle gym instead of a career ladder.
00:04:27
Speaker
went over to become a teacher, worked in special ed and math and STEM, then video editing for a year with a lot of students, eight years of that. And then our child was born two and a half years ago. And I said, well, I don't know how our home is going to function without me being home a significantly more amount of time, like being away for 50 hours a week doesn't, I don't know how we're going to do that.
00:04:53
Speaker
So I went into sales in like a remote work situation. And then after about two years of that and growing my social media following pretty much the whole time, I found that I had enough of a leeway and I had enough proof of concept and that I felt like I was one, able to help people and two, they're willing to pay me enough that back in January, I made the lead to going coaching and content creation full time.
00:05:23
Speaker
trying to help solve as much as it's a couples issue. I think the moms out there feel the heavier weight of it, of educating people on invisible labor. Yeah, and I think with mothers, particularly postpartum period, a lot of their issues around mental health have to do with things related to the invisible mental load and the emotional load and domestic division of labor.
00:05:53
Speaker
Um, where, at what point in your kind of journey, I know you read the, um, Eve Rodski book fair play, your facilitator, a certified facilitator, but where was the journey, your personal journey that you realized, Hey, this information.
00:06:08
Speaker
isn't really getting to the people that need it. Cause again, we are actually diverting patients to you saying, you know, this isn't something I've been trained on in my medical training, but these are serious areas that have to do with mental health. This guy is talking about it and he has some great tips.
TikTok Success & Challenges
00:06:23
Speaker
So where did you realize that? Like no one else is talking about this. This is how I can reach people.
00:06:28
Speaker
Um, well, so as I, so I had been making content for years, uh, starting like 2016 and in September, 2021, when I was on attorney to leave for the first of the three months.
00:06:43
Speaker
that I was on, I started talking about just what it was like being a dad. I made this video. One was the sixth S that no one talks about, which was smell of, you know, calming a child. And that was, that was my first video that I think did like 900,000 on TikTok. And then I made a second, I made another video like a week later talking about
00:07:06
Speaker
I was really grateful for the sacrifice that a lot of moms were making around breastfeeding and Alyssa was putting in a significant sacrifice on herself. I think she was definitely influenced by the breast as best people and felt a lot of shame around her experience with breastfeeding because it was not easy for her.
00:07:27
Speaker
When did I'm documenting a bit of that experience? But you know a couple of those posts like people like wow this guy's doing things differently I didn't know I was doing things that differently. I know it was I knew taking three months and paternity was Different. I didn't know it was unheard of I knew that you know acknowledging moms for the sacrifices. They're making was like like probably under an under Spoken message. I didn't know how much of a desert women were in for acknowledgement of that
00:07:57
Speaker
So I think a lot of my, my early content was just talking about being a dad. I realized at some point that, you know, I kind of ashamed to share this and growing
Fair Play & Gender-Based Issues
00:08:08
Speaker
more towards guilt in it but I think, you know, I, I kind of use my newborn as clickbait I didn't.
00:08:14
Speaker
I didn't know I was doing it until I had one video that I didn't have for it because So a part of our odd circumstance was that our our kid wouldn't sleep Outside of our arms wouldn't sleep in a crib. So I had my shift from 7 p.m to 3 a.m I would sit in the rocking chair and she would nap in my arms and or My goal was to soothe her before 10 minutes were up and I had to go wake up my wife was like the
00:08:42
Speaker
the standard of care as I would say with my clients, that's the agreement we came to with Alyssa and I was saying like the hard part for me is not listening to our baby cry, it's knowing that Alyssa has said that I had better damn wake her up if I was not able to sue there for 10 minutes because she was probably hungry.
00:09:01
Speaker
So as I was making those videos, I think, you know, our kid was not in one of them. The views went down. I was like, oh, oh, no, what have I been doing? So at some point, you know, I was sort of a feminist man talking about stuff and then Roe v. Wade overturned and
00:09:22
Speaker
I kind of surrendered my platform to other moms. I didn't feel it was appropriate to speak. It just wasn't, my voice didn't need to be heard in that time. And then I read Fair Play after making a post, what book should I read next, and Lauren Danger and my friend Abby.
00:09:43
Speaker
had said, you should read fair play. I was like, okay, I trust them. They had talked about me in various other videos. So it was really cool hearing they had the same recommendation. After reading that, I realized how much I was missing from Alyssa's experience. Like I knew she, in a lot of ways, was kind of drowning in being out
00:10:07
Speaker
touched out being feeling like she was the main thinker and owner of childcare. And I knew some of that was biological and I knew some of it was like culture pushing shame on her for not doing everything.
00:10:27
Speaker
But I didn't realize the heaviness of mental load.
Understanding Partner's Mental Load
00:10:32
Speaker
I didn't realize, like, I remember for my birthday, we went down for a triathlon in New Jersey. And because it was my birthday weekend, it was somewhat assumed that Alyssa would sort of think about all the things that needed to happen for our child to get down there. And, you know, there are moments when I would try to take things off her plate, but I'd be like,
00:10:54
Speaker
there were moments prior to it where I'd be reprimanded or something by her which was like hey you know you forgot this like and there's there's a lot of like her being frustrated with me and I would retreat to this point of okay like hey I'll do all the things but like I need you to make the list for me because I'm not trying to get yelled at for trying to jump in and do stuff and then doing it wrong um so I just started sharing kind of real life examples of
00:11:20
Speaker
where i saw myself adding mental load to her and or where i could be slowly taking them off like one one tiny little thing at a time um my first video that i made about that in december 22 was of our you know our kid was sick uh she's about a year and a quarter old and i said from the other room as we're getting ready for nap time hey should i do water or milk
00:11:43
Speaker
And I just called myself out and said, hey, this is part infinity of me adding mental. And so my wife, I asked her, milk or water. And I could have easily came to her and said, I think we should do water because of X, Y, and Z reason. Here's the water. Does that work for you?
00:12:00
Speaker
Or do you want milk versus saying, putting, putting, having the buck stop with her. And I think when that video, I mean, it's like 6 million or something on TikTok. I was like, what? Like I knew I was saying something relevant, but I didn't think it was that relevant.
00:12:21
Speaker
And just like the way that people responded to that, like, Oh my God, yes. Like, like how, how there are so many comments of like, why am I crying right now? And I realized that over time, after I was like, okay, well that was a great video. I should make more of those.
00:12:36
Speaker
After seeing, you know, a couple dozen of those realizing like, wow, there's so many women that feel one, heard by it, but two, didn't have words for or like a way to point to the frustration that they were feeling. And so I think mental load is that labeling word, kind of like we, you know, we talked about, like, if you can speak about the shame that you're dealing with, like, it'll start to dissipate.
00:13:01
Speaker
Similarly, I think if you can start pointing to the mental load that you're experiencing, it's much easier for a partner to take it over. And I think it's much easier for you to not sit in misery about it because you can point to it. Because you can't point to it. It's just so hard to deal with. I know I kind of rambled on there. Does that kind of answer your question?
00:13:22
Speaker
Oh, completely. I mean, first of all, definitely answers the question as far as kind of recognizing this was such a gap in sort of this relationship dysfunction and that you received all of this crazy feedback identifying that this was for sure something people wanted to hear more of. Totally makes sense. And then I think your point about that you aren't necessarily, it's not necessarily guidance for moms, but I guess,
00:13:51
Speaker
Yeah, kind of thinking about I know you've received some like criticisms or critiques about you being this voice for this problem that is a really significant
00:14:01
Speaker
female problem or mom problem and you being the voice of sort of what the solution is. But I think as I'm listening to you talk about it, really realizing like how that is such a gift because when we're dealing with these issues of emotional load, mental load, and also being responsible for being the one to reconcile it, communicate it to our partner, this is what we need to do to fix it, doing the research, reading fair play, like you're taking that ownership. And so I think
00:14:30
Speaker
Yeah, as you're talking about it, I'm realizing how proactive that is that you're asking men to speak up and do this, be the solution.
Empathy Exercises for Pregnancy
00:14:39
Speaker
Yeah. It's been hard getting other guys to do it along with me. I even had like, you know, I've talked with the other fair play facilitators. I mean, there's, there's 117 of us. There's only four guys. And even, and one of them, I think
00:14:54
Speaker
If I had recommended him or he had recommended me, but Michael Von Worldshaker, you know, he does a good job speaking out this, but I mean, even, even John and, and, uh, you can see, she can't think of his name, but the other guy, um, like I said, yeah, like, Hey, I'm happy to share my platform with, with you.
00:15:12
Speaker
If you sharing moments about where you're adding mental for your partners, I think, you know, as much as I was on the mom well podcast and she kind of called me out for a you're this guy voice in a in a female problem and like she has Harvard law degrees you have.
00:15:30
Speaker
TikTok. Like, what do you have to say to yourself almost kind of day? There's a lot of moments where I'm like, am I just a guy talking about women's issues and it's refreshing because it's coming from a guy or am I actually good about what I'm talking about? And it's a confidence battle I deal with daily. But I think one of the things that I do do well, which
00:15:52
Speaker
I decided about a year ago when I decided I wanted to take TikTok seriously and have a business come from it because I recognize I don't want to serve women in terms of, I don't have anything to teach them. I may have a 93% woman audience, but I'm here to validate their experience in a lot of ways more so than teach them anything.
00:16:15
Speaker
What I want to teach is guys. And so I softened my approach to explaining it. I've made, yeah, I think a lot of what I make is skits, as well as just personal experiences. And in those skits, I know sometimes that can be kind of harsh on other guys.
00:16:32
Speaker
Yeah, I know I'm pulling the strings a little bit to have it maybe try to be a little bit more viral and like hit the heartstrings a little harder for exposure. But I think I also try to make a lot of videos where I'm throwing myself under the bus first. You know, I call myself a recovering man child one because I know it's a great clickbait title because it sounds fun. But at the same time, I think, you know, a lot of people talk about being in recovery like
00:16:59
Speaker
folks that are dealing with alcoholism, they acknowledge, yeah, I'm one drink away from being back to where I was and heading down that rabbit hole. And I almost think similarly, there are moments in my day when I'm like, wow, I could go full man child here and just ask for a list. I could pretend I didn't see the cat puke on the floor and not pick it up. I could pretend that I'm not seeing this small mess and let Alyssa pick up. And there's so many of those moments throughout my day where I'm like,
00:17:28
Speaker
I could totally revert back to man-child. And so I feel like I'm recovering man-child in a lot of ways. So, you know, I try to call myself out first. And I think when guys are able to see another guy throwing the rock at themselves first, it's a lot easier for them to tune in.
00:17:45
Speaker
and point the finger and like, ah, yeah, that guy sucks. Wait a second. That sounds exactly like me. Damn it. That's the experience that I think I'm really going for with a lot of those videos is like, I want guys to hear themselves in it. And you got to soften the blow by hitting yourself first and throwing yourself on the bus. Yeah. And I think that you are identifying things that I think a lot of women don't recognize as actually being their struggle. I mean, like you pointed out with some of the
00:18:15
Speaker
emotional or mental load, not realizing is actually creating the mental tool that it is. One thing that really stands out to us in postpartum is that a lot of the emotional and psychological load is stuff that's like brand new to you. I mean, thinking about
00:18:30
Speaker
breastfeeding, nursing, or feeding and keeping track of the schedule, how much baby ate, if they're eating enough, weight, like all those things that are brand new. And so you're not even recognizing some of the emotional toll it's playing. I think you're so tuned in more, I would say you're more tuned in than maybe the average person to some of the emotional, like psychological side of what the mental load can look like.
00:18:59
Speaker
I'd love for you to share with our listeners. I think what you talked about in Alyssa's pregnancy, how you'd been sober. I think you said you wore a weighted vest at some point even. Yeah. So tell us a little bit more kind of maybe even how you had that mindset and then also like what other things popped up for you and pregnancy and postpartum that were kind of unique to the mental, emotional load.
00:19:21
Speaker
Um, so I'll start off with this was that, uh, I've been asked, my mom always would, uh, I don't even know how this conversation kind of came about, but I remember at one point my mom asked me when, you know, she found out we were pregnant. Uh, she said like, are you going to be, are you going to be pregnant with her? And I was like, yeah, of course. And.
00:19:45
Speaker
To me and my mom, what that means is like, are you going to, you know, not, so my mom like did all the things, didn't take ibuprofen, stopped drinking coffee, all the things. And so I think we must've had that conversation at some point. So when she asked, I was like, yeah, like,
00:20:02
Speaker
not planning on drinking, not planning on drinking coffee if she has to, I think we weaned off and then came back to tea or something like it did that with her. Whatever drugs she wouldn't take, I wouldn't take. And, you know, I recognize there are things that couldn't be replicated. And
00:20:20
Speaker
I didn't have the word emotional labor for it, but I think this is what it was, was I wanted to, you know, a couple of things that were interesting to me was like, I haven't changed clothing sizes since I was like 18. So it's been like 15 years of the same clothing size. And there's a lot of moments where, you know, I have things that fit me really nicely. And, and this epiphany like, wow, Alyssa doesn't get to wear the thing that she loves wearing even now. Like she,
00:20:48
Speaker
The baby weight has persisted and she gets new clothes often and I recognize, wow, it's really privileged to have the same size body for 15 years. I can wear the same stuff that I was wearing in senior year of high school that she doesn't have so that I could be a parent.
00:21:10
Speaker
So I did a little series, and a lot of people didn't like it. I think I had a lot of pushback. It'll be interesting how I go about it once when we're pregnant again. But I did a little series on all the things you can attempt doing. Some people said, yeah, you're method acting, and it's bullshit. And you're taking the sanctity or taking the sacredness out of,
00:21:38
Speaker
I'm like, I don't know. Is that really sacred that you can't sleep on your stomach anymore when you're pregnant? And I think there are handful of people that just thought it was stupid what I was doing and I don't care. So to answer your question, yeah, I wore a weight vest. It was during summer in Boston, throughout the summer when she had put on the weight.
00:22:03
Speaker
Alyssa called me out at one point said a little fanny pack with a five pound weight in it. And I went to a doctor's appointment with it. My doctor was like, Oh yeah, you're so cool for that. And she's like, are you just doing that? So like, you can stroke your ego about it, like, so that people can be like, Oh, look at this awesome husband doing this cool thing. I mean, even, you know, when you're saying that, like,
00:22:23
Speaker
You know there's a there's a part of me that is looking forward to saying yeah I'm a awesome guy for this. But I think what I again what I didn't have the words for was I think I was trying to do some of the emotional labor that she was doing so that I could appreciate more of her experience I know that I'm not gonna replicate it but
00:22:43
Speaker
I'm a pretty tall guy, and when I was a teacher, I was in a trauma-informed school. There were like 30 kids. They're all girls in a school that stayed there. And if the kids were running or acting, they would get in fights. You had to restrain people.
00:23:03
Speaker
And I remember this one time, I had my fanny pack on. They didn't know why I had it. I had been hiding it from them sort of. They didn't know there was a slap, I waited in there. And I remember running like sprinting up some stairs like three at a time and whacking myself in the crotch from the from the fanny pack and
00:23:26
Speaker
you know, kind of knocks the wind out of you. I'm like, wow, this is something that Alyssa cannot do. She can't, she can't sprint upstairs. She has a human inside of her. I remember there was a moment of like, I felt so uncomfortable because it was sweating, and it was hot. I had the weight vest on under a sweatshirt.
00:23:46
Speaker
And I was like, I should just take this off. And I was like, you know what? I'm just going to sit with the pain of it because Alyssa doesn't have the luxury of temperature regulation. And so I think there were a handful of purposeful hurdles that I put out for myself so that I could try to experience some of what she was going through and the lack of control and just being able to acknowledge my own privilege.
Communication in Relationships
00:24:08
Speaker
I remember, you know, sometimes she got annoyed with me about it is I wore the fanny pack to bed one night.
00:24:14
Speaker
And she went to cuddle me and felt it on my hip, and she's like, are you still wearing that thing? I was like, yeah. Take that thing off. This is not fun not being able to sleep. This is not a game. And so there were definitely moments when I think I probably went a little too far, and she got annoyed by it.
00:24:33
Speaker
Um, so I think there was a significant amount of learning that it's hard to, hard to necessarily articulate, but I think it was just, um, it was a moment of trying to get more of her experience from a invisible level that you can kind of only experience if you have some of the physical challenges that they're going through. No, that makes a lot of sense. And I think you were kind of highlighting what is so
00:25:01
Speaker
challenging about these conversations between couples and helping to be able to relate to the different loads that each person is carrying, like the emotional weight with caregiving tasks. And I know from listening to moms, that is one of the most challenging things is to communicate to your partner what you're experiencing there. And so.
00:25:24
Speaker
What you did is definitely sounds like an effective way for fathers or men to be able to understand or relate a little bit better. But yeah, how else do you go about that, talking to couples about how they evaluate that emotional, psychological component when their experiences are completely different?
00:25:44
Speaker
I think, how do you have a conversation with a couple that's trying to see eye to eye that has not, you know, if one of them was looking at a whiteboard on the part that you write on, the other one's looking at the side like, what do you mean right on the whiteboard, this thin little, you know, wooden line, like, they're having two different, totally experiences, I think, because I understand my own experience. You know, I think,
00:26:08
Speaker
a lot of the times we're trying to get guys to see the women where they're at and they're like what do you mean it's just easy to do these things or you know even I try to acknowledge my privilege when I see I saw you know Catherine Reitman the writer producer for Working Moms I thought that was a really great series to watch as Alyssa was pregnant she talked about she had a post the other day about like
00:26:38
Speaker
being in a network setting where, you know, when guys are talking with each other, they, you know, they kind of see each other as competition, but like trying to help each other out. But when women step in the room, it's held against them and they're like, the men are assessing whether they're a threat. And so half those networking sessions, instead of gaining the wisdom that I think a lot of guys enjoy, they're having to either prove that they belong there or they're having to like,
00:27:05
Speaker
prove that they're not a threat to the, to the men there and like acknowledging that that's like an advantage that I have stepping into network session that I'm just thinking about myself I'm not doing the emotional labor of trying to make sure that people have a certain perspective of me.
00:27:21
Speaker
I can bring things like that and knowing what that woman experiences to pointing out things maybe a little differently to the guys. One of the pieces of advice they try to give, I think for women that are doing the emotional labor, they're trying to find a new angle for explaining it to their partners is trying to call out mental and emotional labor as their partner complains about it, but doesn't have the language for it. So the example I always give is,
00:27:49
Speaker
Uh, if a guy comes home, he's like, Oh man, like that guy, Tommy sucks. Like, Oh, why is he suck? Oh, well he, he's always asking me to remember like the time card punch out number. God, man. Just, just remember that. Like, just write it down somewhere. Do something with it. Stop asking me. Wow. It sounds like you hold the mental load for him. And yeah. And you're probably going to have to send him an email on Monday when he forgets to write. Yeah. Like I'm gonna have to do that too. Yeah. It's a lot of mental load, isn't it? Um, and it's like labeling it for them so that they can see where they're doing the words and like.
00:28:18
Speaker
guys say there are a couple moments in my mental mastery program. So, you know, it's a small, intimate group of guys that are all, they recognize that they need to improve. And most of them, their, their wives showed me, showed them my videos and they're like, yeah, like I can kind of relate to you. It's like,
00:28:35
Speaker
pretty cool seeing four guys using the language emotional labor and mental load and invisible labor and decision fatigue and like just hearing a couple guys talking about emotional labor like I've teared up a couple times just watching them talk about the woman experience.
00:28:53
Speaker
you're doing such a good job conveying that experience through just ways that really like land and resonate through all these wonderful examples and personal examples. And I think one thing I've loved that you've been able to articulate and add a language to is with the emotional and psychological load of parenting, the tasks that don't necessarily obviously carry an emotional component. I think you gave an example the other day
00:29:23
Speaker
you were doing some sort of chore around the house I think you were doing like yard work or um yeah maybe it was like raking leaves or some sort of yard work and you recognized that you'd spent maybe too much time doing this or you were kind of using it as sort of a respite because Alyssa was involved in
00:29:42
Speaker
child care at that moment and it looked on paper like maybe you were like the one working really hard but really she was responsible for like all the caregiving while you were doing those tasks and that was to me kind of like oh whoa that's actually you know it looks like my husband's done stuff around the house all day and I've just been hanging out with the kids.
00:30:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that was actually an episode from, um, I don't know if you're familiar with the mom room, Renee Arena, but she had, uh, like she, she coins it a pancake gate where she, she had this episode maybe a year and a half ago or something talking about how her, her partner would honest. So she's a stay at home mom, you know, she has her
00:30:24
Speaker
She has her social media podcast, but her partner is a surgeon and comes home on Saturday morning and he jumps into making pancakes and going out to like mow the lawn. And meanwhile, she's been indoors with their kid most of the week, especially I think it was during like COVID or something.
00:30:42
Speaker
And she was like, Hey, like, can you not do pancakes? Like, I just want to sit and enjoy coffee with you. And like, the internet exploded on her being like, fuck you. Like, like, why are you? Why would you tell him not to do just be thankful for like, that he's doing it? Like, I wish I had a guy that would do that. And it's a moment of like,
00:31:03
Speaker
One, I think we're all entitled from our partners to at least be able to hear how they feel cared for. And furthermore, there's a difference between doing something that looks good on paper versus what's actually filling your cup.
Weaponized Responsibility in Relationships
00:31:21
Speaker
And I think it's really easy. An article was written, I use the word weaponized responsibility. I was gonna ask you about that, yeah.
00:31:30
Speaker
I've caught myself doing this a couple of times in the past two years as I've been trying to understand my own behavior and be my own client, sort of. But I've recognized there are a handful of times where I'll go to do dishes and I know the cats need to be fed and the dog needs to be fed and our toddler's lunch needs to be made soon.
00:31:51
Speaker
And Alyssa will come down and be like, hey, did you feed the cats? No, I'm doing the dishes. But the dishes are mine. I fully own those in our house. So it's really I'm checking something off my own checkbox instead of the family's checkbox. And so there have been moments when I'm escaping a chore that
00:32:11
Speaker
I don't want to do in that moment. And is both of our responsibilities or just hasn't been very well defined of whose specific responsibility is. And by, you know, I'm checking something off my own checkbox, but not the family's combined checkbox. And so Alyssa becomes the default because of it. Yeah, that term. So the way that resonated with me when you posted about that was how
00:32:38
Speaker
weaponized responsibility can actually like also can be used as a way to kind of get out of or avoid tasks that are less appealing. And I see it show up on my own and other relationships a lot where there is maybe a caregiving piece of it that is like demanding full attention at that moment.
00:32:56
Speaker
baby needs to eat, the two year old screaming, we're trying to get out the door and there's other tasks that the other person is focused on, you know, that aren't necessarily directly involved in caregiving. So I feel like I see it show up a whole lot there and then also kind of going back to like a lot of the default tasks that often fall on the mom that have to do with, um, some of the direct caregiving.
00:33:20
Speaker
that weaponized responsibility because kind of an ability to stay away or not be as engaged in some of those tasks because you are, yeah. And because, you know, they don't have the distinction or there hasn't been that conversation about who owns what is it's like, well, I can't be mad at him. He's doing something for the house or something for the family. I mean, even I think, you know, in that conversation where it's like,
00:33:45
Speaker
hey, I got to get up, I got to get to work to pay the bills. And at the same time, like, I've, I think since I had, you know, one of the things I was really proud of when we started doing fair play and looking at our responsibilities is we acknowledge that I owned about 51% of waking up with our child, which I was really proud of.
00:34:07
Speaker
And for me to be able to say that I was waking up with our kid during the night 51 or more percent of the time was me showing that like our family comes first, my job comes second, and even when I was on maternity or when Alyssa was still on maternity leave, but I'd just gone back to work.
00:34:27
Speaker
showing that like hey her well-being while she's home with her are five-month-old versus you know me performing at 100% versus less than 100% or you know 80 or 60% like both of us operating at 60% is obviously not great but like having
00:34:50
Speaker
saying that me performing in my job at a higher percent than she just performing as a parent and a lower percent, like identifying that the job doesn't have to take priority over like her wellbeing.
Shared Responsibility vs. Helping
00:35:04
Speaker
I don't know if I even articulated what I was trying to say there, but I think you get it. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think also that, um, something that brings up for me too is how I talked about the concept of, of help and that, you know,
00:35:18
Speaker
Helping often we think of if you're helping, it means you don't fully own the task. It means you're just kind of standing in or you're, but I think you've done a good job of explaining how help can be also like you're, you can be providing a task or some sort of performing a responsibility that helps the other person find time for what they need, what they need to fill the cup or the,
00:35:47
Speaker
emotional labor dynamic can look like the other person helping in a way that allows the other person to indirectly alleviate some of the emotional load. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I think part of what you're referring to actually probably comes from the other creator, Jeremy, and he was on like, good morning America for it. And it's like, that's probably more viral than anything I've made. It's gotta be in like the 30 to 50 millions.
00:36:16
Speaker
because it was reposted. I think even just my duet of it has like seven million or something, but he pretty much said, I don't help my wife cook. I don't help her clean. I don't help her do the dishes because I as a father cook, I clean, I do the dishes. I can't help my, you know, I can't help with something that's not, I can't help with, I don't know what he says from there, but pretty much pointing out that if you're using the word help, you're saying that the other person is the default.
00:36:43
Speaker
holder of that responsibility. But if you are a parent, if you are an equal contributor, like you wouldn't say that a co-founder is helping you with the business, they're just doing the business. So similarly, if we look at it as co-founder versus like boss and employee, an employee helps their boss, but a co-founder doesn't help their other co-founder. And that's the language that
00:37:11
Speaker
really try to stray from is using the word help. I even I went to duet a video the other day and he called me out on it in a really respectful way. He's like, hey man, I think he ended up duetting or he ended up stitching the same video calling out the fact that the guy said
00:37:29
Speaker
He started off with like, I'm going to say something that might be controversial to some, but I think men should help around the house more. And at first I was like, yeah, he's not saying that he's helping her. He's saying he's helping the house. And then I realized, wait a second.
00:37:45
Speaker
you still wouldn't use the word help if you were like a true partner, if you're an equitable partner. So whenever we use the word help, that immediately creates the dynamic where the helper is like lesser held responsible for, and the helpee is the project manager is the owner of the task and the responsibility.
00:38:08
Speaker
I think that part of that concept that in my mind that also sort of relayed this untrue equitability or at least in early parenthood where there's certain things that, you know, as you pointed out with some of the list of experiences just aren't
00:38:24
Speaker
something you're you're going to like fully be able to experience the weight of that responsibility in the same way. So when we say it's not helping in some way to me that almost kind of undermined that as I can't think of the post exactly but I remember in mom room she had this conversation
00:38:40
Speaker
Rene had had this conversation with Matthew McConaughey about how while his wife was, Camolo was pregnant. He said something like, I need to find a way to help you take a break, help you put your feet up. And so again, kind of this concept where you've looked at helping can be to accommodate the other person to
Personal Pursuits & Relationship Balance
00:39:01
Speaker
meet a need. And I think that's something that, yeah, I feel like kind of shows up when you're messaging too. Yeah.
00:39:08
Speaker
I vaguely remember what you're talking about there and I think one of the things pretty interesting
00:39:16
Speaker
pivot that happened in our relationship was about this time last year when I started taking content creation a little bit more seriously, it was like when I had just become a fair play facilitator and some of the other therapists and coaches and stuff were like, Scott, how big is your email list? And I was like, what do you mean? What's an email list? And they're like, yeah, you have a following, but you don't have emails either way.
00:39:42
Speaker
I ended up starting putting out a freebie and building my email list and we're like, okay, maybe I should take this seriously as a significant source of income, something that I'll eventually... I'd gone into sales because I wanted to have it be more than just a hobby on the side.
00:40:05
Speaker
when at that same time, for Christmas last year, I'd gotten, I know that the sun's disjointed, it'll come together in a second. Alyssa, we just moved and I had bought her like a 10-pack of rioting lessons for local
00:40:26
Speaker
place that had horses and she grew up with the horses. She was a rider for like during her college career but you know it's been like eight or nine years I think since she was on a horse and when I gave her the permission financially and like you know time wise to go do something that she really enjoyed that had really nothing to do with the rest of us
00:40:49
Speaker
All of a sudden, I felt like I had permission to take this seriously and say, hey, Alyssa, I would like to go make a video in the other room for half an hour. Does that work for you? Because I was at the same time giving her the space to have three hours to go be with horses on, I think, probably two or three Sundays on that first month.
00:41:10
Speaker
So I think when so many of us don't realize how much permission, we feel like we don't have for the things that we want to do. And when we start granting that to our partner, we also start feeling maybe not entitled, but like,
00:41:25
Speaker
a little bit less guilty around being able to create some boundaries around the time that we have for, you know, in Fair Play, it's called the unicorn space. So when Alyssa was starting to have some time boundaries for her unicorn space, I started feeling like I could have some for mine too.
00:41:42
Speaker
That makes a lot of sense. And I think that's one thing too that is so tied into mental health that we sort of overlook in, in parenthood, especially in early parenthood. And you have this entire identity shift as you become a parent, your entire social context and identity and like everywhere all of your life has changed.
Strategies for Managing Household Responsibilities
00:42:01
Speaker
And so having that unicorn space, having that space for pursuing things that, that help you feel like your, like your true self or,
00:42:11
Speaker
feel like you're important and has huge implications for mental health. But I wanted to circle back on one thing that is such a barrier in sort of all of these conversations and communication between couples is often the defensiveness that creeps in. And I would love to hear a little bit more about your sort of approach to defensiveness because I know that you have some kind of practical strategies around how to notice when you're doing it.
00:42:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm going to give away pretty much my whole mental and mastery program for free right now because you don't need me to do it. It's the question of if you want accountability, like I'm there to help you stay accountable and have someone there for emotional support as the guys are going through it, which I think a lot of need.
00:42:59
Speaker
In a lot of ways, you don't need it. The prescription that I give to the guys that are coming to me, this is like the typical, you know, on my first call with folks, this is like the general situation that I'm outlining that all of them are not in their heads like, oh my God, you know my life, is
00:43:19
Speaker
Uh, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna say mom and dad for the two sort of personas. Um, mom is fed up. She's kind of sick of him doing a 80% job on doing the dishes. Finally, one night, uh, you know, he, he doesn't wipe something and she like, dear God, like how many times do I got to tell you? Like, can you please finish the job? Like, can you please do the thing?
00:43:45
Speaker
He gets defensive because he's not ready for it in that moment. And then he's like hit by fear and you know, it's an uncomfortable situation. He's also defensive. So nothing gets repaired in the moment. But then for the next three weeks, he's on top of his shit. He's like.
00:44:01
Speaker
He's crushing it. He's going 110% from normal and then the fear wears off. And then, uh, you know, the next week he starts coasting again, going back to his 90% than 85 and 80%. Um, and he's like, Oh, everything's good. All right. I'm going to kind of go back to my status quo. Um, it, because the fear is now worn off and then we repeat the cycle. Um, and.
00:44:28
Speaker
What I think a lot of couples are really struggling with is having the conversation around in fair play. It's called MSC, Minimum Standard of Care. And what that looks like is having a meeting where you're saying, OK, let's go into the kitchen. Let's look at what the dishes look like. Let's look at what a finished job looks like that we can both agree on. One of us might have a higher standard. One of us have a lower standard. Let's find somewhere to meet in the middle.
00:44:55
Speaker
let's find somewhere or not meet in the middle. Like how about you just come to my level? I think ideally I think a lot of guys have lower standards is what I'm seeing and what I've experienced myself. I think a lot of times when I meet Alyssa's standard for a while, I start saying, is this part really necessary? Like I'm doing it because we agreed on it, but like it sucks. I hate it. And it's like the last 2% of the job that I just, it's more time consuming than I think it's worth.
00:45:24
Speaker
And I think oftentimes, like, if you're having iterative conversations like, you know, this week I feel like I did a, you know, 80 to, you know, I did 100%, maybe 98% job. Did you notice the 2% was gone? I know we had created that in our original conversation, but is that an issue for you?
00:45:42
Speaker
So rather than having these exploding conversations that are really just a broken set of standards that one person created that the other person is not fulfilling on, I'm holding guys accountable to having a weekly meeting with their partner, where they're talking about the schedule, they're talking about expectations for the week.
00:46:01
Speaker
Ideally, as they go along and where we read through the fair playbook. And I have a set of reflection questions that kind of cater the book more to men, because it's really easy to read that book and get really fucking offensive. So as we're reading through the book, I'm having them have reflections on it, like listen to, try to try to give them the safe space to battle with those ideas. I think, you know, battling with those ideas is their partner.
00:46:28
Speaker
Not the greatest environment to talk those ones out, but I'm here to be like your covering man child buddy that like hears you because of lives it. And at the same time, like I'm going to hold you accountable to the guy that you want to be.
Single-Task Ownership & Conflict Avoidance
00:46:42
Speaker
So as we're going through that, um, you know, we're starting to implement the fair play method, uh, somewhere down the line and a huge part of what I'm helping people reframe is CPE conception, planning and execution.
00:46:56
Speaker
So instead of having it be disjointed, let's take groceries and shopping for a second. Instead of having her do the meal planning and then do the grocery shopping and then he picks up the groceries, puts them away and does the cooking.
00:47:14
Speaker
Ideally, that one person owns all of that. Instead of having one person do the management of the laundry, they put it into the washer. And then once it's done on the washer, it's the other person's responsibility. Don't split that up. Have that be one person. Have one person own all conception, planning, and execution. And in the book, she talks about some of the different traps that you stop falling into when you embrace that.
00:47:43
Speaker
that way of doing things. And I think a lot of the fights that we get into are for handoffs of like, you know, there've been couples that have, there's a couple I worked with here and there. It was one guy I was working with and his wife would jump on sometimes and they would, they'd point out like, yeah, I wanted to do this thing. So, you know, I did 50% of the work and then I said, Hey, you do the rest.
00:48:09
Speaker
And because he's not seeing the original conception of it, he doesn't have the same image that you have in your head. And so he's never, he's rarely going to hit the bar the way you want to. And when he doesn't, you're going to get pissed at him. And then along with that, he's going to ask 21 questions before he does anything. So he doesn't want to get yelled at. So if we.
00:48:32
Speaker
have those conversations on a weekly basis where we're identifying the minimum standard of care for things, identifying what the expectations we have for each other are. One, we're just having healthier conversations. They're not as emotional. And we're also coming to that talk emotionally prepared to deal with those, just like in couples counseling. But also, I think we're resetting the way that we're able to talk to each other.
00:48:58
Speaker
And we start realizing that it's a little bit safer than we had realized for talking about tough stuff. And I think a lot of the, a lot of value that I think I bring to the guys is like, I'm calling them out if they're not having those tough conversations. And we're trying to get down to in our, you know, in our group sessions, like what, what is the hard thing that you're really avoiding here? What's the discomfort that you're feeling? Where is it in your body? Well, let's feel it out.
00:49:27
Speaker
and having them identify that so we can be like okay well there's your number one homework assignment is to talk about that thing and to to express and share that you've been feeling shameful about that um because i think it's just it's us getting more comfortable with hard conversations is like the muscle that needs to be built um i think for for a lot of guys to open up about those things i think
00:49:51
Speaker
similar to a business meeting. I think when we start, you know, we call them the boarding meeting at our house and in the program because Alyssa finds them endlessly boring. But they're just like those meetings that I think corporations have because corporations say like, hey, for us to be efficient about this process, we should probably meet on it every week and like have a status update and talk about these things. Because if we don't have a standard operating procedure, you know,
00:50:20
Speaker
it's just not going to work out well and we've seen this with other companies and so that's why we have all these what feel like really boring meetings in corporate settings but it's because money's on the line that they're like we should talk about this for 30 minutes every week and similarly because we live in a capitalist society because it doesn't seem like there's money on the line for a lot of things we don't we aren't seeing the value in having those conversations in a structured and planned way and so all the time i'm saying
00:50:48
Speaker
like, you know, a guy will be talking about, yeah, I have a really hard time planning out X, Y, and Z, and be like, what's your job again? Oh, I'm a project manager. What skills do you use in your career that you can implement here, maybe minus the software? And so, like, then they end up, like, planning an agenda, just like they would with their team, and taking those very
00:51:12
Speaker
corporatified capitalistic skills and applying them into a domestic setting because when we start saying like, Hey, like domestic labor is serious and it's real and it's hard and it takes a lot of effort.
Business Strategies for Household Management
00:51:24
Speaker
Um, like let's use business type processes to deal with those things. It seems to work a lot better. Yeah. Yeah. And I love how you pointed out with, um, different expectations and standards, such a point of contention that there's a right way to do something and
00:51:42
Speaker
that someone's not doing a task the way you would be doing it.
00:51:45
Speaker
Yeah, I'm gonna add one more thing is I think a lot of times when in that like reoccurring cycle I described, I think a lot of times the mom is getting into the shouting match. She's feeling like she needs to add extra layers of emotion to really get it through his thick skull, right? And not only does that just create like a fear mindset, like would you rather be loved or feared? You're just creating fear and so it doesn't stick. But furthermore,
00:52:13
Speaker
She isn't feeling like she needs to add that level of emotion if she knows there's going to be another conversation so a lot of times things i think are being said like. I don't say like this it's not gonna get through but if you have these weekly cadences you say.
00:52:33
Speaker
you know, historically, she's done the dishes, let's have him take it over. And let's not have one conversation about let's have four. And then she doesn't feel like she needs to layer on the emotion, and he can hear it a lot better. And then week two, he can, you know, for me, it was, I took over the home security system. And I gave myself permission to fail. The first week I was like, Zach, you're probably gonna remember four out of seven days.
00:53:01
Speaker
Let's just make sure that we identify why we might have missed the three. I ended up coming back and I'd done six out of seven days and recognized the last one that I missed because there was a box in front of it. And so I said, if this is going to work, we need to make sure boxes are not ending up in front of this little tablet in our kitchen because I'm going to forget.
00:53:21
Speaker
Um, and then I'm also going to try to have it stack. So when I go to finish, uh, doing the dishwasher, you know, it's 12 inches from the tablet thing and I can go check the locks and I'll go do that. So having iterative conversations rather than like, and I'll be, I'll come to Jesus, uh, rally cries, um, just work way better. And, uh, you know, there's a lot less significance, a lot less shame built into those conversations.
Impact on Maternal Mental Health
00:53:49
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I'm taking a step back to kind of, again, how this all really relates to maternal mental health. One of the big things I know Eve Rotsky points out in the book that these issues relate directly to mental and physical health. And I think she gives us a statistic where there's like a cohort of 200 some women. And for those that identified that they're responsible for at least two thirds of the invisible mental and domestic load,
00:54:19
Speaker
followed up with those women and two years later or something, those who fit that category of two thirds responsibility, all of them were being treated for some sort of mental health condition. And so has huge mental health implications. And that's why, again, when we're talking to moms who are dealing with this and recognizing that this dynamic in their relationship is a significant part of their mental health,
00:54:43
Speaker
um, you're an anecdote. And so turning people towards you as part of that solution, um, is a real intervention. And so if you don't mind, would you give like a little bit more of an overview of the format of the mental load mastery program of like what that looks like for partners who have some familiarity?
00:54:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's a 13-week program, 10 sessions. In the three weeks that skip, I have a one-on-one call with the guy and I try to have at least one of those three
Mental Load Mastery Program Overview
00:55:12
Speaker
also with the partner, especially towards the end, one to better understand how they're implementing it and to help along the way with the implementation of the process because I
00:55:25
Speaker
I think women can also get in their own way of implementing the exit. I know Alyssa has been struggling as she's been reading through the book. She's not done yet, letting go of control of some things that she's been having an existential crisis of like, well, if I'm not managing the laundry, that means I'm giving up by giving it to him. And then who am I if I'm not doing laundry? I can't speak to that one as well as she can.
00:55:54
Speaker
So you had 10 group sessions. It's a pretty small intimate group. Smallest has been three, largest has been seven. With the three individual calls, you're part of a community of the other 30 to 40 guys that have already gone through the program. And on a weekly basis, I'm holding the men accountable to running that meeting, running that boring meeting. They're showing up with an agenda. I know that a lot of pushback has been caused because
00:56:22
Speaker
And they're like, why do I have to show up to this meeting every week and like just one more thing to my mental load? And the whole purpose is for me to get these guys used to running the show on something, holding the mental load. They, at the end of the group sessions, they're saying they're minimum four bullet points. And like if they're saying, you know, I want to talk about meal planning. Okay.
00:56:45
Speaker
Hey man, what does it sound like you bring that up real time in the agenda? It sounds like me saying, well, what do we want to have for dinner this week? And be like, you recognize that's adding all the mental load right there, right? So let's reformulate how we're going to present that.
00:57:03
Speaker
what's another way we can do it and then you know the first two weeks i'll give it to them but by the third week you know i'm saying to them you know what i'm going to say what am i going to say and then they'll be like all right yeah i need to i need to create a meal plan and present that to them and say what are your issues with it rather than what do you want so really retraining them to come prepared with lists come prepared with thinking done and presented
00:57:28
Speaker
rather than asking for the list and asking for her thoughts and opinions on things. An example I got permission from this guy is that they have a kid that's going to be doing soccer in the spring now. And one of the things he added to his list was like checking to make sure the cleats and the shin guards still fit. And I said, yeah, how are you going to present that? He's like,
00:57:51
Speaker
you know just like i said like let's let's check to see about and i said how about you come to meeting telling her whether they fit or not like bring your kid put the shin guards on and present that to her and say we should factor in a budget for you know we're gonna need some new soccer stuff or not
00:58:11
Speaker
So that's a lot of like the hands-on like kind of nitty-gritty stuff that we're doing. And yeah, I mean there have been some guys that I've added the one-on-one calls as well as the partner call because I think a handful of the women have been like, yeah, I don't really know what you guys do in there. You know, some couples are seeing amazing results. They're doing the hard work. They're having the really tough conversations.
00:58:38
Speaker
And I'm trying to figure out how to get better at holding them accountable to having those really challenging, uncomfortable conversations.
Cultural Influences & Mindset Shift
00:58:45
Speaker
And so I'm trying to loop in the partners. And for one thing I just added the other day is that I have to have the email address and or phone number of the wife as well so that I can send out an email at the end of the sessions and say, this is what we talked about. Here's a discussion topic if you'd like to
00:59:04
Speaker
you know, talk with them about it. Sometimes they don't relay that as well. So I'm trying to use the mental and emotional labor for the families so that women can feel like they're part of the conversation as well. That's so cool. Thank you for explaining that. I think one thing too, that comes to mind there is that you've done such a great job of not making this about anyone's fault, that like the partner isn't the problem, that there's a lot of underlying social and cultural
00:59:34
Speaker
context and influences that really shape how we look at this distribution of these different responsibilities. And so I love how you do that with
00:59:44
Speaker
you know, both kind of a self-deprecating way, like pointing out where thinking might be flawed, but at the same time that it's not like a core identity issue. Yeah, it's okay to feel guilt around these things, but I think it's really ideal to chip away any shame that there might be around it because it doesn't really serve anyone and shame is like that. It's like, for lack of a better way to describe it. It's like the Illuminati just kind of running
01:00:11
Speaker
Running the show behind the scenes, we have no idea what it's doing or how it's doing it. I don't know if one of my eyes is real, but Shane is just in the shadow character that's running things and pulling strings, and we don't know what it's doing until we start talking about it. So if we can get into guilt mode over Shane mode, I think that's a huge one of the goals that I have with them. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And we know that, I mean, Parenthood carries a lot of guilt for all. So we talk a lot about that with mom guilt.
01:00:40
Speaker
on the other side too in these relationships and that it's not, yeah, it doesn't serve anything very constructive, for sure, nor is it inspirational to ever get someone to guilt someone into action.
01:00:55
Speaker
I think before we wrap up, so like I pointed out before, there isn't formal training around a lot of these topics right now, or at least not yet. And so you're someone who really is an expert and kind of a leading voice in this area. And so we're turning people towards your social media pages. You have this formal program that people can sign up for. How else can people find you like any other avenues that you'd like to highlight?
01:01:24
Speaker
Um, I mean, if people want to get, uh, what I can give you is the link for, um, sort of, I can give them access to my fair play, uh, uh, mental load one-on-one document, um, where they can also call with me if they'd like to, but.
01:01:39
Speaker
The mental load 101 document is like 170 of my videos kind of condensed into one document. I know people tend to get to my account. Yes, it's entertaining, but there's a lot to consume there. I make a video every single day, sometimes two or three. So I think
01:01:56
Speaker
If you want to better understand mental load in a like me kind of breaking it down into just a couple examples and like showing like what the commonalities are of it, as well as the second half of it is talking about how to have that conversation for a lot of women that are probably imagining mostly women listening to this podcast.
01:02:17
Speaker
If you're trying to have that conversation with your partner, not really sure where to start walking on eggshells and you need a little bit of help having that initial conversation, uh, have like some conversations starting philosophy, uh, to kind of give you there. Um, so yeah, I'll give you that link. You can put it in the show notes. Um, but, uh, real Zach thinks you're on Instagram. Uh, if you search recovering man child, it's pretty easy to find me.
01:02:43
Speaker
I've been discovering if you just search mental load, it's also pretty easy to find me. Awesome. And then podcasts, tell me about that because you're... Yeah, it's not much. I think it's like, you know, I referenced boring meetings. One of the things I'm trying to do more of is recording Alyssa and I having our boring meetings so people can get a taste of kind of what that looks like. We do have one of those done. We had one the other day that ended up going two and a half hours.
01:03:09
Speaker
that got a little personal. I don't know if we'll actually end up posting it or not. It might be a little too vulnerable for us. But yeah, I think a lot of people found value in hearing me in 90 second clips. And my friend Frank, he's one of my favorite cheerleaders. He said, like, dude,
01:03:25
Speaker
I get to hang out with you so much and you're just so much more than these 90-second clips. People need longer-form versions of you to hear the full depth of what you're talking about. I do solo episodes sometimes. I'm trying to have a handful of guests on. I actually am going to be speaking with Eve in a couple of weeks, the fair play author.
01:03:51
Speaker
And I had a really good one the other day with, uh, with mom, uh, Renee from the mom room. Uh, one of my, my friends, uh, I haven't met her in person yet, but I will soon, uh, while I'm at, I can see her face bling on her name. Um, Paige, she's a page turner as her account. Um, but page Connell, she talks a lot about mental load a lot. I know that she has a lot of man haters, uh, cause she tells it like it is, but.
01:04:18
Speaker
Yeah, I'm trying to have guests on here and there, but I'm staying consistent with the podcast. I'm so much better at the 90 second videos that take me like seven minutes to make. But yeah, so if people want to see what a boring meeting looks like, we'll happily deliver a very boring meeting.
01:04:37
Speaker
Awesome. No, we'll definitely include that in the show notes and I would be surprised if they really are that boring because everything you put out there is so dynamic and interesting and digestible. Are you working on a book too or is this something I got from?
01:04:52
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I put in another three hours Friday morning, woke up at before the crack of dawn to get back at it. Cause I've been sitting on it for months and I have a couple of meetings coming up with agents and I don't want to have nothing there. So I'm trying to hold myself accountable, but I would say the book is a mixed between like fair play and Justin Beldoni's man enough. Uh, so he had a love child. So it's kind of touching on all these examples of like, kind of how I got to where I am.
01:05:21
Speaker
you know, giving a ton of examples where I have and continue to mess up and have Alyssa holding the mental load in our home and the emotional labor, but also trying to share a path forward, how we go about that and probably including, you know, anecdotes from some of the guys I've worked with as well.
01:05:42
Speaker
Very cool. Well, um, before we wrap up, we have two questions that we ask all parents that come on the potter. And the first one is, um, I didn't expect parenthood to be so blank. Well, first I've been trying to do first thought, best thought is I think it's like your subconscious. And then it's like, I'm ashamed to say this word, but in a lot of times it's boring. Um, I think there's a lot of moments I saw a really good clip the other day, like,
01:06:10
Speaker
And it all flashes for before your eyes and then there's like this clip of the sky just watching his toddler take seven minutes to put his shoes on. And I think that there's a lot of like, yeah, I really try to soak it in and I try to be kind to myself when I'm finding myself kind of bored and like kind of like
01:06:30
Speaker
Like, yeah, she's having fun. The tub. I really soaked in the first seven minutes and we're trailing eight, nine, 10. And I'm like, there's only so much more of like dinosaur and like Satan just repeating themselves over and over again. So yeah, that's a good one. I can totally relate to that. We haven't gotten that response yet, but I imagine that most parents absolutely feel that way and are hesitant to admit it. Um, a lot of redundancy.
01:06:58
Speaker
Okay. The second one is I wish every new parent knew about blank. I wish they knew the heaviness of the shame that they could feel around the parent that they want to be versus the parent that they're seeing themselves end up showing up as. And that the best antidote for that is being kind to yourself and knowing that you're human, even though you're a parent. I love that. Yeah. That hits home for sure. And I think a challenging aspect of that is that,
01:07:25
Speaker
As you become that parent, you really want to be, you never get back those moments that you weren't that at that stage in your child's life. So, um, yeah, definitely requires a lot of grace and acceptance for sure. Well, thank you so much. So, um, so appreciate you coming on today, sharing everything that you did. Um, and yeah, I'll look forward to the book to podcast episodes and everything else you can continue to put out there.
01:07:52
Speaker
Well, thank you. I appreciate you. And I don't, I'm still battling with the word expert, so I'm honored that you guys as trained clinicians are seeing that I'm bringing enough value to worth calling me an expert. Thank you.