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14. The Emotional Weight of the Invisible Load, with Jen and Rachel
163 Plays1 year ago
This week, Rachel and Jen chat about our deeply meaningful episode with Dr. Cassidy Freitas, LMFT.
We continue to discuss how standard maternal health care is not truly informing women about what the all-encompassing transformation to motherhood can look and feel like in a way that empowers them to prepare and anticipate their needs, and make informed decisions about their health.
Plus, Rachel shares what it was like recently to step out of her "mom" shoes and getaway for a weekend with her college besties! Something she deliberated over and felt very uncomfortable about, but ended up being the best decision ever. It's okay to tap into the "old" parts of you when you become a mom!
After you listen, please be sure to rate and leave a review - this is the best way for us to learn what you want to hear more (or less) of, and keep getting this info out there!
Dr. Cassidy is leading the discussion around maternal mental health, the need for more education and integration of mental health services in routine maternal care, and working to change the narrative around the process of becoming a mother on the social and cultural level in her private psychotherapy practice.
Links and resources mentioned in the episode:
Mindful Momming 10-Day Challenge
A Guide to Hormones and Mood Changes in the Pregnancy & Postpartum
The Birth of a Mother (The New York Times by Dr. Alexandra Sacks, MD)
Free Guide to Addressing Resentment in Your Relationship After Baby
Dr. Jen's Practices for Connecting with Future You
You can learn more about Rachel's California-based group therapy practice and how you can work with her at www.racheldaggettlmft.com or on instagram @rachelscouch
Also, find us on Instagram @bloomafterbaby! If you rate and review the show, take a screenshot and tag us on instagram so we can share your review in our stories!!
Learn more about us and access all of our courses, services, and free resources at bloomafterbaby.com
Stay Tuned for more to come from Rachel Daggett and Dr Jen Jordan on all things motherhood and mental health - real mom experiences and insights from a licensed psychotherapist and medical doctor.
*Please note that this podcast is intended for educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for seeking individualized care from a mental health or medical professional*
Podcasts for expecting and new moms, best podcast for pregnancy postpartum, maternal mental health, motherhood, fatherhood, parenthood
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Transcript
Welcome and Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
All right. Hello, everybody. Welcome to a bit frazzled, the podcast with Bloom After Baby. Rachel and I are bringing you a debrief episode today, following up on our conversation from last week's episode. So if you didn't listen last week, I'd suggest you go back to that episode first. We had the honor of speaking with Dr. Cassidy Freitas. She's a
00:00:20
Speaker
mom of three and a licensed marriage and family therapist with her own group private practice in San Diego. And one of her areas of focus is perinatal mental health. And she's really one of the voices leading the discussion around maternal mental health and the need for more education and integration of mental health services in medical care as well as on the social and cultural level by changing the narrative around the process of becoming a mother.
00:00:47
Speaker
and the roles of being a mother. And Dr. Cassidy is also one of the pioneers using social media as an effective platform for discussing and educating around these topics. She also has a powerful personal story to share about her motherhood journey and birth experience. So again, if you missed it, go back to episode 13 and check it out. And without further ado, let's jump in.
00:01:15
Speaker
You're listening to Bloom After Baby, the podcast. We're your hosts, Rachel Daggett and Jen Jordan. We're a therapist and a doctor and both moms of two. We're here to discuss the mental health and wellness needs that are unique to motherhood.
Motherhood Challenges
00:01:30
Speaker
From confusing hormone swings to your expanding body to boundaries and tricky relationships, we'll give you the information you need to experience motherhood in a way that feels good to you.
00:01:43
Speaker
Thanks so much for tuning in. Let's get to it. Good morning, Jenny. How are you? Morning. We're hanging in there. Yeah, I was just talking to you about, but yeah, this ice storm is like kicking our butts. We're definitely not prepared for it here in Seattle. We've just been like hunkered down all weekend and you know how that is when you're just like, I'm excited to hear you had a much more exciting girls weekend with your college buddies.
00:02:10
Speaker
Yes, a much warmer weekend. In one of the girls I was with this weekend, my very good friend Lauren from college, she came out from Chicago.
00:02:24
Speaker
So I didn't know she's in Chicago now. Yes, in Chicago. And I saw a video this morning on Instagram of the lake just completely frozen over like slushy. It looks freezing. And she, when she flew home on Monday, I think she told us it was literally one degree when she landed.
00:02:43
Speaker
I'm sitting here. Here I am in Orange County with my heat pack and my sweater and the heat blasting. What is the temp here in San Clemente right now? Oh, and Lauren's at California, girl. Man. She is. She's from Santa Clarita where it's like the desert.
00:03:04
Speaker
And I don't know how she's adapting. Very brave girl, very brave. But I know you guys are getting hit hard in Seattle too right now. Yeah. And it's just like the challenges, the winter challenges when you live in an area that has like
00:03:21
Speaker
winter weather that we usually spend so much time outside. So it's just so hard not to be able to sit in more time outside, especially this age. And we don't, I mean, I never thought I'd resort to screens as much as we do. I'm really trying to lean into like how you use screens as a tool and being strategic about
Fair Play Approach
00:03:38
Speaker
it. But the definition of tool can become pretty broad.
00:03:42
Speaker
Yeah. And it's a time, right? It's like the, you have to do, you need to do to survive. This is an extenuating circumstance when you have an ice storm going through your town and your resources are limited. So give yourself grace there. But I was definitely, so after our awesome conversation with Dr. Cassidy, definitely thinking about that a lot this weekend with sort of how Eric and I were approaching
00:04:11
Speaker
childcare and especially like full intense full-time childcare for three days because it was a long weekend and One thing that we talked about with the kind of flip fair play approach of when you Designate or delegate a task that you like completely own that task and that helped a lot that was something that we I feel like we kind of like we tag team a lot of things and then there's that animosity because someone's not doing it the way you'd be doing it and yeah, I know how you
00:04:39
Speaker
You've experienced that and we'll get into that. But yeah, so we tried that a little bit that approach of like really owning the task Eric was like full laundry duty and with bedtimes we like divided that up and Yeah, I made a difference
00:04:54
Speaker
That's so great. I know I, we have, I've had the fair play deck sitting in our coffee table drawer for probably six months now. And to be fair, we've had a baby this year. So time and motivation is limited, but we just cracked it open actually last Tuesday, the night.
00:05:14
Speaker
following our conversation with Dr. Cassidy. And I'm so glad we did. And I highly, highly recommend it. We started with just listening to the episode where Cassidy interviews Eve Rodski, who did all the research behind and wrote the fair play book and created the card deck. We listened to that episode together and it took us like two hours because we both kept pausing with our own commentary.
00:05:37
Speaker
There might've been an argument or two, but yeah, that is one of the parts to Jen that I think is so hard to do, but also so important and game changing is the ownership piece. And then the giving up, like the letting go, like with the one person owns it and the other person lets it go. Even though I know he might not do bedtime the way I would, he might let it drag on a little bit longer and while him up.
00:06:04
Speaker
I have to let that go and let him do his thing with him and let them have their own dance together. And then he also, if he's going to rile him up and it's his job to do bedtime that night, he has to finish the job too. He can't call me in to finish it, right? So it's totally this like really interesting dynamic shift when you actually start practicing that.
00:06:24
Speaker
That's so true. I posted something this, I put, I made a post this weekend and it was like a repost from Dr. Morgan Cutlip and it was about essentialism, the topic of essentialism. And it was a new term to me, but essentialism defined here has to do with that idea of feeling that there's a certain way to
00:06:47
Speaker
complete a task that is the right way. And so it really is about feeling like you are really the only one who can perform this responsibility the right way.
Essentialism and Self-care
00:06:57
Speaker
And then how the impact there is that it really restricts you. And she, you know, describes it as like self sabotaging that you can't, you don't ask for help because you don't feel like anyone's going to do quite as good of a job. And it really can end up creating a lot of barriers and limitations because you're not willing to
00:07:16
Speaker
relinquish control and it comes from a place of wanting control or comfort, but then also just a place from kind of, I think a lot of the altruistic or harder type mentality to that. Yeah. So I think you're right that the fair play kind of breaks, helps to kind of get through some of those like mindset barriers too. Do you want to describe the fair play deck? I don't know if we've even given a background about what, what that is. And I can edit that into earlier.
00:07:47
Speaker
Like earlier. Yeah. They shine maybe. Yeah, totally. Well, now I have to try to remember how many cards there are. Yeah, is there I think a hundred or 200? Let's see.
00:07:58
Speaker
It was like a list of 200. Yeah, maybe it was. And then if you don't have kids, there's 40 cards or so that you can take away from the deck. But it's like all this whole list that she compiled through research and interviewing couples of all the tasks that go into running a home with kids or without kids. But finances are in there. Things you do outside the home are in there.
00:08:26
Speaker
normal mundane tasks, such as dishes, laundry, bed making, blah, blah, blah, meals, groceries, all of it. And it's all in a deck of cards and I, and Sean and I haven't actually done the system yet, but from my understanding, you lay all the cards out and you have a conversation around who is holding each card.
00:08:45
Speaker
during any given period of time and I think she recommends that you I think our plan is to we're going to try to do it this weekend during a date night and then try to aim to like reassess every month.
00:08:58
Speaker
And the whole point of it too is that it's not meant to be 50-50 because it's going to vary per couple, per home, per, you know, other outside responsibilities, per schedules on what the actual ratio will be per person. And it opens up opportunity that it can evolve and change over time.
00:09:20
Speaker
too, as like children's needs change and so forth. Like, you know, I imagine when I'm done nursing Blake, when she, around the time she turns a year, I will have more bandwidth to take on other cards, right?
00:09:34
Speaker
But yeah, I think that's the main premise. And then like we talked about, there's the ownership piece. I don't know what term she uses specifically for that. We can look into it, put all this in the show notes. But if you hold a card, you hold everything that has to do with that task. And then the other person has to relinquish control with it too.
00:09:56
Speaker
And one of the things that, you know, I think, again, kind of reflecting back on how this impacts mental health individually beyond just the relationship strain, because you're absolutely right. Obviously, this is a huge, a huge issue within a relationship and at the root of a lot of
00:10:11
Speaker
of arguments and resentment in relationships. But Eve and Dr. Casti had talked about when Eve was doing the research behind this, they'd asked women which of these tasks they were responsible for and women that reported that they were responsible for two thirds of these tasks.
00:10:30
Speaker
followed up with them, I think it was 10 years later and it was a cohort of like 200 women and all of the women who reported being responsible for two thirds or more tasks, all of them were being treated for stress related conditions. So that's massive. And so it really highlights that impact that this isn't just about relationship dynamics, but also just your individual mental health, especially in the perinatal period, how big of an issue this is.
00:10:54
Speaker
Yes, I remember listening to that when I first listened to that episode a few months back when she Initially released it I was in the car Driving home and I like wrote I had a blower cuz I just like broke down Crying when when Eve shared that statistic and then further in the conversation in that episode she also brings it back to men's health because this is a
00:11:20
Speaker
This isn't just about women and our health and bringing it back to the relational piece too. She said, and I don't know if you've come across this in your research and training in medicine, but like the biggest predictor of men being healthy when they're 55 is the quality, or when they're 85 is the quality of their relationships at 55.
00:11:44
Speaker
And you're, and if you're practicing a form of the fair play system, your marriage is going to be a lot better when you're 55, when you're 35, when you're 45, whatever. But it's all, it's a process. Cause my husband, I told my husband that, and of course in his just sarcastic manner, he's okay. So I don't have to, I don't have to prioritize my relationships till I'm 55. And I was like, no.
00:12:10
Speaker
It's a process like if your relationships aren't good now, when you're 37, they're not likely to be great when you're 55. And that is going to impact you when you're 85, according to this research, right? It's not just like someone making an airy fairy statement.
00:12:26
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We talk about a lot how your physical health impacts your mental health, but the flip side of that, how your mental health absolutely impacts your physical health and those health outcomes. And she really emphasizes the data there that looking at, at different types of health outcomes. And I think they're just looking at longevity that was correlated with mental health, correlated with relationship satisfaction. So yeah. Yeah.
00:12:53
Speaker
It's all tied together, definitely. It is. And one other thing going back to kind of where we started with this conversation with my girls weekend. One thing that I walked away from our combo with Dr. Cassidy last week was just this
00:13:14
Speaker
idea of integrating all the parts of us. And I think we're going to possibly title that interview as her permission to fall apart. And we talked about that in
Balancing Identity and Motherhood
00:13:24
Speaker
our talk with her, that in previous generations in motherhood, generally speaking, it was obviously a nuance, but I don't think mothers were really given that permission to not be okay, to not act as if everything was perfect and fine and put on this happy face. And
00:13:43
Speaker
that had implications, right? And we have been given, I think, obviously there's burden to it and modern motherhood is different in many ways, easier in some ways and much more challenging in others. But I think we have been given this gift and this opportunity to be allowed to be honest about not being okay and about the mom's
00:14:09
Speaker
not being okay, right? And needing more support and more help. And the, just that idea of being able to be transparent and to, instead of, you know, that whole idea of martyrdom in motherhood too, like having to shed all these past subversions and past parts of yourself when you become a mom and only be mother or only be wife and in our duty to fulfill those roles.
00:14:38
Speaker
and how that's actually humanly impossible to do and that all these other parts of ourselves are still allowed to exist and it's not necessarily good or bad but like how that journey into motherhood can be so shattering to us and then allows us to see all the pieces of us kind of laying on the floor when we fall apart
00:14:59
Speaker
We can get a better idea of all these parts of us and then decide, okay, this part of me is still really important. This part of me, maybe I can put in this box for now, but I know that version of me or that thing I love to do can still be there on the side and I can still access it if and when I want and if and when I'm ready again.
00:15:18
Speaker
So it really set out to me being with my girlfriends from college this weekend and one of the nights being out till 2 a.m. belting out Taylor Swift in a bar and acting like total idiots in our hotel room and having like drunk munchies in our hotel room and just crying, laughing.
00:15:40
Speaker
being total dorks. And that is a part of me that I have not accessed in years. And to be honest, had a lot of anxiety about dipping into that part of me. I really was hesitant to go on this trip. I was determined to do it and I knew I would feel anxious going into it. And so I was like, I know I'm going to feel anxious.
00:16:03
Speaker
I'm going to feel this impulse to cancel last minute and just stay home with my babies where I'm comfortable and I feel useful and I feel like I'm filling their needs and not abandoning them, et cetera. So I'm going to tell myself now I'm still going to go when those feelings come up. And I'm so glad I did because I needed to access that part of me, right? Like that is still an important part of me and those friendships that we met when we were 18, somewhere between the ages of 18 and 21. And now.
00:16:33
Speaker
We're in our mid to late 30s and we can still experience those bonds of just being women together in the world, having fun and not worrying about what our kids are doing, right? And not like just filling our own needs. And so then I had a conversation with a client yesterday about
00:16:52
Speaker
How hard it is for her if she's forced with a decision of whether to prioritize her own needs or her family's Needs she feels like she has to choose her family all the time every time and so we had this conversation about how
00:17:10
Speaker
When you're choosing your needs over your family, that's actually you're paying dividends into the health of your children and your family in the long run, because now this week I'm a better partner and a better mother because I have that opportunity to disconnect from my responsibilities here at home and laugh and share and cry with my friends and
00:17:33
Speaker
access that part of me that's still really important and isn't just mom and life giver and wife, you know? So that was like a really cool experience to have after we had that conversation last week with Cassidy. Yeah. And had you had a girl's weekend or any like away time since Blake's been born? No, not at all. She's, she just turned 10 months. That was my first time leaving her. Yeah. At all. And then even after.
00:18:03
Speaker
read, that same group of girls had a girls trip a couple of years ago and I didn't go to that one because I was experiencing so much anxiety and I just didn't feel ready. And that was okay. I definitely made the right choice for myself at the time, given just where my mind was at at the time. But I'm glad this time around I felt ready and could really push myself to do it. But it's not easy, but doing the hard thing
00:18:28
Speaker
when you know in your heart you are ready and you have the support around it. Like I said, just really pays dividends. I'm trying to figure out how you, because yeah, that is such, you don't remember that until you have that experience, right? You know, you probably didn't know that you were going to come away with that, having that level of rejuvenation, but at the same time,
00:18:50
Speaker
We can't do that every weekend and you do have to choose between family and that social time a lot. So how do you decide what the frequency needs to be to have that type of outlet and experience? And then what are the sort of red flags that indicate that's what I need? I'd say like personally when I'm having resentment or frustration around my
00:19:15
Speaker
girls around my daughters is when I'm starting to feel like I need some space, but I don't have a good system for it for really like how you decide you're going to need that time. Have you, is there something that you can pinpoint that's your red flag?
00:19:30
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah. I guess there's not like a metric to it. And it definitely is going to vary person to person and phase, but yeah, same like resentment, irritability, just signs of burnout in general, ceiling touched out. Yeah. Are you guys going to build it in? Cause you said the four of six of you are mamas. What, what frequency do you, did you guys kind of walk away with? We should do this next year or we should do this every quarter.
00:19:58
Speaker
Yeah, I think every year is somewhat reasonable. And then I'm going to give myself grace and everyone else grace that if on any given year, it's not in the cards, that's okay, obviously, but I think it's I think that cadence is reasonable for me, just knowing it's also my personality. I'm a huge introvert. I'm a homebody. Yeah, social anxiety, even with my closest closest friends, I get social anxiety.
00:20:25
Speaker
And so I know that's like enough to fill my cup and that can keep me going for a while. It might be longer than some others, but it's also can be little things like a weekend away might not feel good to every mom, right? And that's okay too. But I know that a few months ago I was feeling completely burnt out and irritated with my husband all the time and touched out and just annoyed by everybody's general presence.
00:20:56
Speaker
And so I started doing once a week, I would get out of the house during the worst hours in our home, dinner and bedtime routine, like witching hour, essentially.
00:21:10
Speaker
And I would go out with Blake, just me and her. Now that's evolving and transitioning out because she's not just an infant that doesn't move or cry or she's got her own set of needs and loudness. So anyway, that will shift. But it was like a once a week thing where I knew I could go out and sit with her at a park or sit with her at our gym that has like a little lounge area and eat in peace and then come home and put her to bed.
00:21:39
Speaker
Yeah. And then be able to hold a conversation with my husband. So yeah, I guess it just varies, but I think resentment, burnout, irritability, those are all signs that even if you don't think you want to earn me is that you do need time away and that just might look different for everybody.
00:21:55
Speaker
Yeah. And even having you, you do a good job of this, just planning and using a calendar and having it planned ahead that you've kind of realized, okay, it feels good when once a month I have a girl's dinner or whatever, and putting it on the calendar ahead of time. Cause I like yesterday we went to the park and I was supposed to go do some work while Eric was playing with the girls. And I was, I ended up playing with them cause I just want to be with you guys. I want to have fun with my girls.
00:22:19
Speaker
And by the end of the day, I'm exhausted and frustrated and I probably really did need that hour of time to be alone and get some stuff done. But it's so easy to say no. And so I guess my point is like having that officially carved out.
00:22:31
Speaker
Yeah, ahead of time carving it out. And then also this was a term I learned from Dr. Becky with parenting, but I've also learned to use it with myself or at least label it as that is the emotional vaccination. So the context I learned it was with parenting, like I said, with, so with Reed, we started to vaccinate the emotion or the experience or the struggle they may have going into a situation. So.
00:22:59
Speaker
we know he gets overstimulated easily and he doesn't always do well in environments where there's other kids or other people and he's very deeply feeling and a lot of stuff tends to come up in those environments. And so we started being like, okay, we're doing this tomorrow. It may be hard for you. We know you might have a lot of feelings. You may feel like hitting somebody or
00:23:25
Speaker
you know, whatever words we use to describe it. And if that happens, that's okay. And we are here and we're going to help you. And it kind of just like sets the stage so that not everybody isn't shocked when it happens. And it does help to reduce that feeling then and that experience when it happens. Cause it's okay. I knew this was probably going to happen and they're better prepared. So I do that for myself now where in that example, Jen, you could have
00:23:52
Speaker
You could think, okay, I know I need this time. And when I get to the park with them, I may really feel this pull to be with them, whether it's from guilt or genuinely just love and wanting to be with them. And so I'm going to make an intention going into that, that even if, and when those feelings come up, I'm still going to hold my boundary and stick to this decision that I know I need in the big picture.
00:24:20
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's a good idea. I think that's the whole like mental gymnastics. You can all just talk yourself out of it and having, yeah, having something that's formal, that's there's some physical boundaries around or like the outside pressure of it's with someone else or something like that. It's definitely, I think some accountability that can add to it. Cause yeah, it's a lot of just like tug of war, push and pull of wanting it, but then not, yeah, wanting both.
00:24:49
Speaker
Dr. Cassidy did a good job of breaking down. So the idea of this invisible load and it being the tasks that keep a family and household operating, the unpaid, unnoticed labor, the emotional component of that, the emotional labor.
Emotional Toll of Motherhood
00:25:05
Speaker
And I think that's an area that you do a really good job too, Rachel, recognizing that I'm going to pull up this post really quick, but it's the mental emotional load items like
00:25:16
Speaker
feeling like you can't leave the house, staying up late because you're exhausted, struggling to make time for yourself. Especially in the early perinatal period, early postpartum period where you're essentially trapped or hostage to your home and like literally the nap trapped, you're like stuck under baby. But just that like mental, emotional,
00:25:39
Speaker
told that that takes of being so confined and constrained and The touched-out piece of it when you have little ones that emotional piece I think you do a good job taking inventory and being aware of that that is something that You need one maybe relief from or more support in other areas because you're carrying so much of that and I remember feeling so confused in the postpartum I'm just cuddling a baby all day or
00:26:04
Speaker
dealing with, you know, feeding and changing and crying and stuff, but I'm not doing anything else around the house. So where am I actually like helping out in any other way? I'm not doing anything else. And you're doing a lot. Like you have a huge emotional load during that postpartum period that I didn't even recognize as a thing during that stage.
00:26:25
Speaker
Yeah, no. And I have to give credit to Sean there because he, I think I can do a good job of prioritizing that because he has been willing to learn that and to understand it himself and to be attuned with those needs, right? And have appreciation for it, even though it's not visible. Did you explain it to him or how did he come to that?
00:26:48
Speaker
Good question. He's very insightful. No, no, no, no, no, that's fair because I mean, well, I'm probably going to make a gender stereotype.
00:27:07
Speaker
But so I'm going to, I'm going to say in this, and I'm going to acknowledge this is a gender, a gender binary stereotype, but I do think many men are socialized to not be emotionally aware. Right. And so it is, that is a fair question because I think most don't learn that skill because they're not taught it, not because they're not capable of it. And I think Sean specifically.
00:27:37
Speaker
You know, no parent is perfect. He's, you know, him and his dad have had their own stuff, but I do think his dad is pretty emotionally aware. And I love that Sean, I think learned that from him and gained that from that relationship.
00:27:53
Speaker
And I think before we had kids, because I have historically struggled with mood stuff and anxiety stuff, and we've done couples therapy around those things, and he's gotten really used to talking about that stuff and being attuned with me and vice versa. I think his emotional intelligence
00:28:18
Speaker
grew as a result of just going through some of those things with me before we even had kids. Yeah.
00:28:25
Speaker
So where would you even start? Cause I feel like that's a question we get a lot is how to communicate that with your partner. And it's so tough. I think I've heard, I've heard providers talk about it like mental health providers or am I practice like a lot of the discussion around the relationship dynamic would emphasize it's not about getting the other person to understand in the sense that they feel what you're feeling that there's a way to convey your experience and their understanding of
00:28:54
Speaker
what you're going through without it being something they can actually relate to.
Communicating Needs Effectively
00:28:58
Speaker
Do you have thoughts about that or ways you talk about it if someone hasn't had that background that Sean has? Yeah, I think I usually would recommend starting really slow.
00:29:10
Speaker
like starting to have just weekly check-ins with each other where you just practice feeling identification. And you both have to participate. And like I have, I don't have it in here, but we have a feelings wheel pillow in our house. And we use the dot read to use it when I have one in my office that I'm not going into my office right now, but I've had in the past. And I know my associates have a lot of men that will come in and pick up the pillow every time they come in.
00:29:39
Speaker
without even being prompted. And they will talk about how that's not how, I don't even know what half these words mean. And it's so cool to be able to see men just like let their guard down. And women too, because some women have trouble with this as well, like many women do.
00:29:56
Speaker
But particularly to just get comfortable with even using the language around feelings. And then the biggest thing I think is like the speaker and the listener dynamic and listening to understand, not to respond and getting really good at really actually hearing, taking in what each other is saying with the intent of validating their experience, whether or not you agree or get it. We're both doing that and reciprocating that.
00:30:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like natural for just in terms of kind of how we approach conversations. And I think one thing that we're trying to do more of with our posts is tying in the mental health piece, like the connection between behaviors and actions with the kind of psychology of it, and then also the nervous system part of it. And I think with Eric, who really doesn't have any background in therapy counseling,
00:30:53
Speaker
when I've been able to explain to him some of the neuroscience behind it is really when it's kind of clicked of like in really layman's terms, but that this is actually activating my nervous system when I'm overstimulated and that's a new word to him. And I'm in this stage of postpartum and my nervous system is actually getting ramped up and you can relate that to feelings when
00:31:15
Speaker
Anyone knows what it feels like to be nervous and on edge and then explaining my brain's functioning differently in this stage. And I'm not thinking with all of my best logical thinking. And that's been something for him that's been like, Oh, okay. Well, so there's a physical piece that sort of clicks. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead and finish what you're saying.
00:31:37
Speaker
Oh, just with a lot of our posts, I think that's kind of what we're trying to break down. So what I've even done with other people that we follow on social media, other professionals who are using this as a teaching platform is just showing him like, check this out. We're getting his name right now, but I was going to mention some of the dads that we follow because that's so relatable. But anyways, yeah.
00:31:57
Speaker
But that is a good, I think a good tip too, for couples who are just starting to have these conversations. Either way for either partner, having that like science, scientific explanation of things and making it more physical and biological and metaphor, using metaphor to describe like what's happening in your body when you're
00:32:18
Speaker
anxious and activated and how your body's actually reacting the same way as it would if there was a grizzly bear standing in front of you, right? It's fight or flight. And like bringing it back to that stuff, I think definitely is part of what helped Shawn understand it better in the beginning.
00:32:35
Speaker
Yeah. Will you share? Cause another thing you shared with me is the brain piece and like going back to that idea of the invisible emotional load, especially in postpartum when you're spending all your time feeding and holding and soothing.
Neurological Changes Postpartum
00:32:50
Speaker
And how somehow that feels so all consuming and so exhausting, but then we have these thoughts of, well, I'm not doing anything. Why am I so exhausted? Why is this so overwhelming? Why can't I think about or function and do other things? And you shared something with me some time ago about like how certain parts of our brain that are meant for other things, other parts of life,
00:33:14
Speaker
or like deactivated and you're going to use way better scientific terms than I will. But I think you said like the social part of your brain actually shrinks or changes in such a way that you have actually less brain capacity for being social. And there's the survival component that keeps you home and keeps you close to your baby for survival reasons. Can you share a little bit more about that?
00:33:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think what you're referring to, so we talked about how there's changes in the prefrontal cortex, the areas of the brain having to do with logic and your more rational thinking and problem solving, that there's neuroplasticity, which just means like change, changes in
00:33:54
Speaker
the brain tissue there and pruning where cells are dying off synapses are dying off. And so you're losing connections between synapses that, um, performed certain functions to make room for learning new functions. Cause you're learning all these new functions with taking care of a newborn. So changes there and then changes in the hippocampus, the part of your brain that has to do with, with memory and same thing that you're having to learn and remember new things. And so there's a lot of changing and turnover.
00:34:25
Speaker
neurons dying off and synapses dying off and building new ones. And so all of those changes that are going on, that's where we talk about the term mommy brain and the forgetfulness. And it's kind of thought to be that's the connection there, that there's a lot of part of the piece of the puzzle is that there's a lot of brain changes in those areas. And then I think the other piece that I didn't realize until you and I've been talking about.
00:34:47
Speaker
the actual behavioral side of it, but with some of those thoughts that like I'm not doing anything, I'm not doing enough around the house or I'm a horrible mom or some of those intrusive thoughts or kind of delusional thoughts that are really based on some ingrained societal expectations that
00:35:06
Speaker
It there's that link between those thoughts that are essentially neurons connecting neurotransmitters firing that there's connections between those thoughts and
00:35:18
Speaker
and actual brain connections, but that those thoughts are external and they've been ingrained from those things within our upbringing and environment. But then they manifest physically because then that's related to this overstimulation and activation of our nervous system. And when we're not using our most
00:35:36
Speaker
higher upper brain rational thinking, we're really kind of trapped in those cycles of some of those maladaptive thoughts that are then perpetuating with this increased anxiety and being able to step back from the sympathetic overactivation piece to be able to use the more rational thinking. And I think that's where a lot of the cognitive behavioral therapy or thought work type of therapy gets at.
00:35:59
Speaker
finding those thoughts and highlighting those thoughts that whoa, my brain said that I heard that that's, that's actually not true. And when I am able to separate and find that space, that thought isn't true. And that doesn't actually align with my values and my perspectives. Yeah. It's so crazy. And then the mindfulness piece, like the fate, my favorite part, my favorite thing that we, I learned when I did my EMDR training was how mindfulness can is.
00:36:25
Speaker
Like one of the most effective components of it is that it helps your brain. It helps integrate your brain and it helps all the parts of your brain be able to be online. So practicing mindfulness specifically in like postpartum or anytime really, but since we're talking about postpartum is so.
00:36:43
Speaker
useful and so effective and part of that I think is because it can help that prefrontal cortex be a little bit more active and online and help those synapses not be so disconnected because that in many ways biology is working against us when we're trying to be rational logical and be our normal quote selves when we're in that place.
Mindfulness and Stress Alleviation
00:37:08
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, that's really all mindfulness is. It's a very broad kind of umbrella term. They have a mindfulness institute here at the University of Washington and a lot of it's focused around meditation. A lot of it is focused around, yeah, really just that thought work that you are finding ways to get your parasympathetic system, I guess, increase parasympathetic input, decrease that sympathetic output, because that's related to the portions of your brain that are being activated.
00:37:34
Speaker
and the goal of activating the portions of your brain that are using your most logical upper higher higher level thinking and that's where we can that's the only way we can identify some of those kind of maladaptive or negative thought patterns you can't recognize those cognitive distortions when you're deep in it and not using those parts of your brain so mindfulness being all different types of yeah methods to be able to use access the parts of your brain
00:38:01
Speaker
through nervous system regulation to identify those cognitive distortions. Yeah. Yeah. So if you take anything from this conversation, your thoughts are not facts. Just that and themselves can be so relieving when you're deep entrenched in
00:38:23
Speaker
in negative thought patterns. Totally unrelated to this, but don't you wish you recognized that when you were in the midst of all your dating back in? Oh my god. I always think of that if I would have had that awareness. Man. Because of, yeah, oxytocin and all the other things didn't do in here.
00:38:47
Speaker
the height of your 20 year old me. This should be a parenting, like a mandatory parenting lesson though, that we can instill in our teenage daughters. Yeah. Oh my gosh, seriously.
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:39:02
Speaker
Yes. Okay. Blake is getting annoyed with me. Okay. So thanks for this convo and thank you again, Dr. Cassidy. And if you didn't tune in with our convo with her last week, highly recommend you do. She's incredible, amazing. And we both admire her so much and felt a little bit starstruck, but she's such an amazing, just genuine human being. And I'm so grateful that she shared her wisdom with us last week.
00:39:29
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And like we mentioned, she does such a good job of using social media. So for sure, go follow her. And she is a great example of these posts that you can share with your partner if it's, yeah, it can be really hard to explain these concepts. So follow her, check out her posts, go over them with your partner and you'll learn a lot from her. All right. See you guys next time. All right. Thanks. Thanks, Rach.
00:39:54
Speaker
Thanks so much for tuning in with us today. If you enjoyed this episode and feel like it brought you value, don't forget to rate the show and leave a review. Your feedback means the world to us and helps us know which conversations you are needing the most. And we'll keep bringing you new episodes every week so hit subscribe so you don't miss a thing. Also, be sure to check out the show notes for any links or resources that we mentioned.
00:40:18
Speaker
We're on this journey with you, so be sure to find us on the gram and TikTok, plus go to bloomafterbaby.com and grab our free guides on all things motherhood created just for you. Breathe, be well, and keep growing, Mama.