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25: Demistifying Your Maternity Leave Rights, with Parental Leave Expert Akiko Thayer, Certified Leave Management Specialist
109 Plays1 year ago
One of the most distressing parts of new motherhood can be feeling forced to go back to work before you're ready.
Figuring out who is going to care for your newborn baby, how and where to pump at work, trying to function while in the throes of sleep deprivation and a rattling identity shift, and managing your own postpartum physical and mental health are all extremely overwhelming, and quite frankly, unrealistic.
That's why we wanted to talk to Akiko Thayer, a Parental Leave Expert and Certified Leave Management Specialist. Akiko is going to help you demystify your disability and parental leave rights, so you don't have to guess, shortchange yourself on your bonding and recovery time, or spend hours doing the research and jumping through hoops alone.
In this episode you'll learn:
- That you have more rights and options for parental leave (paid and unpaid) than you may think
- How to navigate parental and disability leave
- How to advocate for yourself to your employer or medical provider
Helpful Resources Mentioned in the Episode:
Legal Aid Society (search for a chapter in your local county)
Perinatal Specialized Providers
Akiko is based in Newport Beach, California, and helps new parents as well as employers across the US, to navigate these tricky waters and get the most of the benefits we are entitled to.
You can connect or work with Akiko through her website www.maternityleave411.com or her instagram @maternityleave411
You can learn more about Rachel's California-based group therapy practice and how you can work with her at www.racheldaggettlmft.com or on instagram @rachelscouch
Follow along with Bloom After Baby for all things maternal mental health: Instagram @bloomafterbaby and website bloomafterbaby.com
** Don't forget to leave a rating and review if you enjoy this Podcast! Thank you so much! 🥰 **
*Please note that this podcast is intended for educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for seeking individualized care from a mental health or medical professional.
New Mom Motherhood California Law Maternal Mental Health Postpartum Mental Health Pregnancy Pregnant
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
You're listening to Bloom After Baby, the podcast. We're your hosts, Rachel Daggett and Jen Jordan. We're a therapist and a doctor and both moms of two.
Mental Health in Motherhood
00:00:13
Speaker
We're here to discuss the mental health and wellness needs that are unique to motherhood. From confusing hormone swings to your expanding body to boundaries and tricky relationships, we'll give you the information you need to experience motherhood in a way that feels good to you.
00:00:30
Speaker
Thanks so much for tuning in. Let's get to it.
00:00:36
Speaker
Hey, how are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. I had a very lovely long weekend. I had a girls weekend with a couple of my long-standing good girlfriend. And so it was much restorative, needed a time away from my kids. And so it was good. I feel rejuvenated. We all need that. Oh, my gosh. Yes, good for you. I'm so glad you shared
Motherhood and Martyrdom
00:01:01
Speaker
that. It's funny. I just saw, do you follow Dr. Becky?
00:01:04
Speaker
I do. Yeah, who doesn't? But she just this morning did this post about how I think Jen Jen did a story or reposted or something on our page, but it talks she was talking about how we can get away from the narrative of like martyr martyrdom in mother. And she one of her tips was to share with your friends and other moms when you do
00:01:30
Speaker
make those choices self-care. So it was very apropos that you said that. Yes. And I shat it from the rooftops. I suggest everyone, you know, take just even if it's just one night, you know, sometimes like not doing having your partner or husband do the nighttime routine. And you taking a break from that is like so restorative and for the other parents too, you know. And so my husband and I, if I do a girl's trip, he can do he can go somewhere with his friends. So push and pull.
00:02:00
Speaker
But you got to work as a team. It's certainly it's not easy being a parent to little people. They're so little, but yet they take up a lot of your space. All the space, the physical space, the emotional space, so much more than you could ever realize. Totally. Where did you go? We went to most of my friends that were on this trip. They're in the Bay Area.
00:02:24
Speaker
in San Francisco and outside of San Francisco. So we went to Tapetola, which is a cute little beach town near Santa Cruz. Oh, cute. Yeah. So it was really just chill. And then it was raining. So we're like, Oh, I guess we can't like do much outside. So it was just what I needed. It was awesome. Oh, that's perfect. I'm so glad to hear that you did that. Yeah.
00:02:47
Speaker
got that time.
Introducing Kiko, Leave Management Specialist
00:02:49
Speaker
Okay, so for our listeners, we, Kiko, is that how you say your name? Correct. Yeah, you got it. So we met on Instagram. And I was searching online for someone like you who does what you do, but I didn't know really existed. Because we had
00:03:07
Speaker
Like a couple of new moms in our practice who were trying to extend their disability leave due to having postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety Yeah, and not knowing where to start and coming to us like what do I do? Do I need a letter from you? I need to see a doctor and some
00:03:25
Speaker
Just a lot of confusion and feelings of loss there. And so I was searching on the internet, like, was there a specific type of attorney that helps women with this? And I came across your page and it opened up this whole world for me of this area of specialization that I didn't even know existed. And I'm so grateful.
00:03:43
Speaker
So you're a certified leave management specialist and parental name expert in the state of California. That is correct. Yes. Yes. I live in Newport Beach. Most of my clients or most of the people that I help are California based, but I can provide kind of support on a national level. But my expertise is in the California leave laws because they are
00:04:07
Speaker
complicated. They're more complex because there's two other lead walls in California that you have to kind of think about and put into the mix when it comes to parental leave. And so that's why I focus on California, but I can certainly help other parents across
Understanding Parental Leave Policies
00:04:23
Speaker
the U.S.
00:04:23
Speaker
So essentially as a certified leave management specialist and a parental leave expert, what I do is I help parents navigate their parental leave rights so that they can maximize the time at home with their babies so that they can stay at home and return to work when they want to go back to work. And so really giving
00:04:46
Speaker
the parents kind of the gift of time to stay at home and to take that much needed time to be with their family and to be with their babies. Also what I do, I also work with employers and primarily with my work with employers is I will help them develop kind of robust parental leave policies that are really there to help the employee who might be becoming a parent or is a parent or really just welcoming a baby into their family.
00:05:15
Speaker
So working with the employer to kind of be that support, to be the kind of the advocate for their employees. So that, again, so that the employee can take the time off that they need, be ready, refreshed, and really have that clear mind, body experience to come to work, you know, after their parental leave is over.
00:05:34
Speaker
Okay, so do you do some education with employers too about why this is so important for like the broader level of the efficacy of their of their business? Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, and I think that there's been a lot more conversation around paid leave or just leave in general that I think a lot of employers are are definitely starting to realize the benefits of providing leave, whether it's unpaid leave or paid leave to their to their employees. I do think that
00:06:04
Speaker
more employers are realizing that obviously there's a positive effect on the employees themselves, but they're also realizing that for them too, it's helpful. So if you are providing your employees with leave, especially if it's paid leave, perhaps the likelihood of them coming back to work is greater because they're getting the time off that they need. And so it essentially becomes
00:06:27
Speaker
lack of better words, cheaper for the employer to have invested in that employee versus that employee having to leave the workforce because childcare issues, et cetera. And so it's basically a better financial decision for the employer to invest in the employee than having that employee just quit.
00:06:47
Speaker
Tell us how you got into this work because everyone has a story and you're a mom too. So how did you
Kiko's Personal Story and Mission
00:06:54
Speaker
get into this? Yes, I love this story. And I love it because it really started as a passion project for me. When I went out on maternity leave with my older daughter, I have two daughters, nine and seven. But when I went out on maternity leave with my older daughter,
00:07:11
Speaker
uh in 2014 my employer at the time they basically botched my leave they shortchanged me about eight weeks of leave and and it was not anything malicious it was not intentional i just think that the HR rep that i had been working with i just don't think she had a clear understanding of all the leave laws at play and then
00:07:34
Speaker
how all the leave laws interacted with each other. Because essentially it's the leave laws that dictate how long the leave you can take. And so because she didn't have a clear understanding of that, that's why my leave got short changed. And so long story short, there was a lot of inefficient back and forth. I had also done a ton of my own research on the subject matter.
00:07:57
Speaker
I eventually had to consult an attorney over at the Legal Aid Society, which I always plug. They're a great advocacy community, nonprofit group where they provide legal aid to two employees. But nonetheless, I consulted an attorney over at the Legal Aid Society to confirm my understanding, which were true, which was correct.
00:08:19
Speaker
And then after much back and forth, my employer corrected my leave dates. And so throughout this experience, what struck me was that there was not a source online that provided information in a kind of a
00:08:34
Speaker
clear, concise way that a layman, a non-attorney could understand. And I also realized too that I couldn't be the only person who was having trouble wrapping their brain around these super complicated leave laws. And also I couldn't have been the only person who had been somewhat misguided by their HR.
00:08:57
Speaker
And so with that, I really just kind of got passionate about it. I started a blog as well as a Facebook group that helped parents navigate their parental leave rights. Both the blog and the Facebook group were fairly active. So I did that for a couple of years. And then fast forward to about 2017, that's when I received my certification as a disability leave management specialist. And once I got that is when I formally launched my
00:09:25
Speaker
my business maternity before 11. So, you know, I love it. I love what I do. You know, I'm really protective of, you know, the time that a parent is home with their with their children. I want to give it to them. I love giving
00:09:41
Speaker
the, you know, the parents, the gift of time really, you know, to spend time with their kids. I feel like in our society, there, there isn't really an opportunity for employees to unapologetically take an extended leave of absence. I mean, that just doesn't really exist in kind of our, you know, business culture. And so, and what better opportunity to then to take an extended leave of absence when you're having a baby.
00:10:08
Speaker
And, you know, ultimately my mission with my day to day of working with clients is to really empower them with their knowledge on what their leave rights are, what their paid leave options are, so that they can have
00:10:24
Speaker
efficient, productive, and accurate conversations with their employer. Because again, I couldn't be the only one who has been somewhat misguided by their HR. And I truly believe that knowledge is power. And unfortunately, again, nothing malicious, nothing intentional. I just don't think employers or HR reps are there to fully tell an employee
00:10:49
Speaker
what all of the leave laws, all the paid leave options that they might be entitled to. And so I think that to put the power on the employee, for them to go into a meeting and tell their employer, this is what I know.
00:11:04
Speaker
I'm entitled to versus asking them what am I entitled to and so kind of giving them that power I think just really makes the leave planning process as well as while someone is out on leave that much more
00:11:20
Speaker
easier, you know, there's no kind of red flags, there's no surprises that might come. And if you're having a baby and you're deep in the, you know, deep in diapers, the last thing you're going to want to, you know, realize in that shoot, you know, my employer messed up and I have to go back to work next week, you know, and so just to kind of provide that clarity, I think has been
00:11:41
Speaker
It's been a joy for me to work with parents. I'm just so happy that this exists and that you're doing this. Yeah, it's such a gift. The gift of time. It's like the perfect way to put it. And it's just so beautiful. And it's also so pragmatic, right? Because it is so confusing. And you're right, it's not malicious. We can't expect an HR employee of a big company to understand the ins and outs of every single type.
00:12:11
Speaker
of legal issues that they're gonna come across and but then I think what happens is it can feel like then like okay so it's my job to figure this out right but like any mom but you're right when you're already pregnant working or or postpartum already and like you step knee deep in diapers or struggling with anxiety or whatever you know.
00:12:32
Speaker
Postpartum is a wild ride, body, mind, soul. Most of the time you barely even have the energy to make yourself lunch, let alone research all this legal stuff and advocate for yourself. Exactly. Exactly. You know.
00:12:45
Speaker
leave, navigating leave. It is a large piece of the puzzle, right? When it comes to pregnancy in general, from the pre-birth and post-birth and everything in between. And I just like to take that puzzle piece out of the equation because it's not easy. It's not easy understanding everything. And again, being pregnant, being a parent to a newborn, it's not easy. So if I can take off something off their plate, I'd like to do that.
00:13:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And that's what I think is so important about teaching new parents that everyone is going to tell you that it's hard, but also there's help out there. There's like specific resources that you can bring in to be part of your village to help you with these specific things that maybe you didn't know even existed or didn't know what would be so hard or so confusing.
Navigating Maternity Leave Rights
00:13:31
Speaker
And what's coming up for me is that it's surprising even having gone through this twice and being somewhat literate in this phase of life and all the changes that can go on. I feel surprised, I guess, to hear that there's more options than there seem to be for people. Like it's not as black and white. Like we always kind of, I'll ask friends like, oh, how long do you get from maternity leave?
00:13:57
Speaker
Oh, I get three months and that's it. Or, oh, I get whatever they're told they get. We just accept that without questioning it or realizing that there might actually be other options and benefits that you can advocate for. Absolutely. And I think that's the tricky part, right? Because maternity leave, it's not a one size fits all solution.
00:14:21
Speaker
There are different leave laws that you might be eligible for. So at the baseline, there's federal FMLA, which provides the Family and Medical Leave Act. It's a federal law. It provides 12 work weeks of job protective leave. And there's a variety of reasons that one might take, but in the context of maternity leave,
00:14:39
Speaker
You can take federal FMLA for pregnancy, childbirth, recovery, as well as baby bonding. But then on top of that, you might live in a state that has their own pregnancy and parental leave laws, such as California. And so it really just depends on where you live, the duration of your leave that we might have in California might be entirely different to someone in Iowa.
00:15:04
Speaker
You know, and, and, you know, also on top of that, even with all these leave laws, a lot of times it's really dependent on a couple of factors. Like for instance, you know, your employer side, your employment situation, you know, how long you've been with that employer. So sometimes
00:15:20
Speaker
two employees at the exact same company living in the same state could have totally different leave scenarios. And so it's really, you can't just assume that just because person A got X, that person B is going to also get the same. And then on that note, you know, because it's also not the same, that's why it's important to, you know, leverage and maximize your leave. If you're, especially if you're having post birth complications, you know, you can't
00:15:46
Speaker
It pains me when someone says, oh, well, I can't extend my leave. I'm suffering from postpartum depression, but, you know, so-and-so only got, you know, 12 weeks of leave. I can't, I'm just going to grin and bear it and just go back to work. No, definitely exercise your rights, maximize your leave entitlements and rights so that you can take the proper time to recover from whatever condition or whatever difficulty that you're experiencing. And so really the leave laws
00:16:16
Speaker
are really kind of on our side. They are tools that are there to protect us. These are leave entitlements that leave laws that we are entitled to. So if you need the time, take it, exercise your leave rights. You know, and I think the challenge is that just people don't know how to leverage these leave laws to their advantage. And so it's
00:16:39
Speaker
And it's a lot of puzzle pieces working. But again, I urge any listener here to do their research on what leave laws and exercise their rights to the maximum capacity so that they're getting the maximum amount of time that they can. And you mentioned the Legal Aid Society. Is that one of the main resources you work on? Yeah.
00:17:02
Speaker
Definitely. Legal Aid Society is great. They provide a lot of information on all the leave laws, federal as well as state. Also, your state government sites too. They will have a lot of times
00:17:16
Speaker
easy to digest one-sheeters on the leave laws that apply to each state. And also, another tip that I once heard was looking at blogs of employment attorneys that are
00:17:33
Speaker
for the employee, not on the employer side, but employment attorneys on the employee side, because oftentimes if they have blogs, they might blog about the lead law that are applicable to the state that they practice in.
00:17:49
Speaker
Okay, I'm writing all this down so I can put it in the notes.
Case Study: Kite Baby Leave Denial
00:17:53
Speaker
I wanted to ask you about the, did you see all the stuff that happened with Kite baby recently? Yeah. So, you know, I'm very much not an advocate for cancel culture. And I know there's so much nuance and context in every story in the internet. It was only going to give the most extreme versions, but what were your objective thoughts of what happened there?
00:18:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. I think so in the kite situation, the mother was an adopted her baby. And the issue, the main issue was that the mother was not eligible for federal FMLA. Federal FMLA again provides 12 work weeks of job protective leave. In this adopted mother situation, she would be taking FMLA. Had she been eligible, she would have been taking FMLA for baby bonding purposes.
00:18:48
Speaker
And I forget why she wasn't eligible. I think maybe in order to be eligible for federal FMLA, you have to work for a company for at least 12 months. And I think that was the issue was that she was not eligible for federal FMLA. And so in that respect, the employer didn't do anything
00:19:06
Speaker
wrong. If the employee is not eligible for federal FMLA for baby bonding, simply that employer does not have to approve that leave of absence. Now, full stop, this employee just had a baby, the baby was in the NICU, very fragile. You would think that an employer would provide some sort of benefit to
00:19:32
Speaker
the you know to the employee and I think what happened was was that from what I understand from a from what I recall the employer just provided two weeks of leave you know just two weeks for the for this parent to for this mother to be with their child and gosh that's like nothing you know so I think again she wasn't eligible for federal FMLA so the employer did not have to provide the two weeks but come on you know like not even from optics just from like employer culture like
00:20:01
Speaker
Come on, two weeks when your baby is fragile in the NICU, like, especially if you're a baby, apparel company, clearly, you know.
00:20:12
Speaker
You're there, you're a company because you care about babies. And so it's really unfortunate. And I think the other thing too was that the employee wasn't specifically, again, if I recall, the employee wasn't specifically asking for time off. She was just simply asking to work remotely. And that's where I think a lot of the
00:20:36
Speaker
the kind of the PR nightmare happened was that the employer wasn't even allowing this poor mother to work remotely, you know, from, from the bedside, you know, from the NICU bedside. And I think, you know, had I, you know, had I been there to provide some sort of
00:20:52
Speaker
support or guidance to this person. What I would have done is I would have asked for a reasonable accommodation request because this new mother doesn't matter that the baby is coming via adoption. It doesn't matter that she did not birth her baby.
00:21:11
Speaker
But as a mother or as a human, clearly baby is fragile in the NICU. She might be experiencing anxiety and depression because of this really sensitive time in her life. And so what she could have done was initiated a reasonable accommodation request under the American Disabilities Act, and that reasonable accommodation would have been to work remotely.
00:21:36
Speaker
And so again, going back to these leave laws that are there to help us as tools, they're there for us. These are what we are entitled to. So exercise what works best for you. And again, in this situation, I wish that the employer would have told her that. I wish the employer would have said, okay, if you don't want to take two weeks of leave,
00:22:00
Speaker
why don't we discuss working remotely as a reasonable accommodation? I don't ever expect an employer to go that deep, but again, going back to leveraging these laws that are there for you, these tools that are there for you.
00:22:16
Speaker
Oh, it breaks my heart. It makes me emotional to just imagine that mom, whether she, like, really doesn't matter whether she birthed the baby or not. Being in the NICU with your child. Baby, yeah. Infant, newborn, and being just given no compassion, really, no grace. And coming, I think the salt in the wound was that it's a baby apparel company and owned by a mom and it's just like, how? How do you overlook that?
00:22:44
Speaker
I know, you know, I know it's Yeah, yeah, it was just unfair all around. Yeah. And yeah, and I hope I don't Yeah, I don't know, kind of how everything went down with the mother. You know, I don't think she went back to working with them. But
00:23:02
Speaker
you know, at minimum, you know, I hope that this is a lesson to employers, you know, that you need to, you know, kind of put some sort of plan in place, you know, to help their employees. Because again, you know, and apparently, when the CEO was talking about it, she was, you know, she was glowing, providing glowing reviews.
00:23:23
Speaker
on this, on this employee, clearly, this employee had was pivotal to, you know, at least from, at least from a, I don't know, from a workplace perspective, pivotal to the company. And so now, you know, now this now they're out this person who is clearly doing a really good job, you know, and so you have to kind of see what what works best, you know, making that small investment, making an investment on your employee can really help you in the long run. Yeah, I think it Yeah, so it kind of pushed that conversation. So I'm so
00:23:53
Speaker
I'm certainly not glad that it happened, you know, definitely not saying that, but it, you know, but definitely, you know, I think the mother was brave to, to talk about it and to come out with it. And, and it's, you know, and it's, and it's a, it's an issue. It's a problem that a lot of people are facing. So yeah, so I'm glad that he's still talking about it.
00:24:11
Speaker
Oh my gosh, totally. And you're right, so brave, so courageous and strong of her to speak out about it and to talk about it and to stand up for herself and every mother out there. And yeah, there was that consequence of losing the employee. And then also, like you said, the PR nightmare. So I do hope employers are being more cognizant of this and more understanding and
00:24:36
Speaker
especially if they aren't parents themselves or don't have an understanding of the turmoil that really does occur for their employees when they have a baby.
Advocating for Parental Leave Benefits
00:24:44
Speaker
I want to share too, my husband, he advocated to get his company to expand their leave rights as well. When we had our second baby a little over a year ago,
00:24:57
Speaker
he I think got two weeks or something and and he took it in two weeks paid and and I own my own business so I had I used FMLA and he works from home but he was struggling like you know we had enough we had a toddler who's very high needs and I had postpartum depression which is
00:25:16
Speaker
impacts him, of course. So we talked about it and I really encouraged him to bring it up to HR that it would be a good decision for them as a company to expand these rights for both parents, right? And the why behind it of everything we're speaking to. And he's usually like, he's definitely not one to shy away from
00:25:40
Speaker
from speaking up or ruffling feathers but this was definitely out of his comfort zone to bring up something like this that felt so sensitive and vulnerable and so he did though and they ended up changing it and then he was able to actually utilize those that time retroactively because it was like up to a year and so I share that because I want people to know that
00:26:03
Speaker
you can speak up and yeah, possible to make change when you when you bring these things up and bring these things to attention and then also talk about the why and the bigger reason why it's also beneficial for the company. Absolutely. And I think, yeah, I mean, I think in the context of parental leave, I think it's so important to advocate for yourself. So in the in for your husband, I think that's awesome. They advocated for himself because then he's pushing, you know, he's kind of
00:26:29
Speaker
trailblazing, the path for other new parents coming into the play. But also another place to advocate for yourself, and I'm sure you have a lot to say about this, is advocating yourself with your healthcare provider, when it's specifically perhaps for the birthing parent or maybe non-birthing parent when it comes to any complications or issues that they might be having.
00:26:52
Speaker
And so, you know, specifically on pregnancy complications or post-birth complications. Don't be shy to advocate for yourself. Tell your doctor that you are not well. Explicitly ask your employer, explicitly tell your doctor, I am wanting a disability extension on my recovery period so that I can continue to fully recover. You know, don't be shy to ask that.
00:27:16
Speaker
And, you know, one, and I say this kind of anecdotally, but also as a way to kind of motivate, you know, anyone listening to this to not be shy to advocate, is that I feel like I'm seeing more and more doctors, OBs in particular,
00:27:34
Speaker
being open and supportive of extending that post birth recovery period. The standard post birth recovery period is either six weeks after vaginal birth or eight weeks post C-section. And in my kind of, you know,
00:27:49
Speaker
since 2014, the decade of doing this work, I'm definitely seeing more and more doctors kind of being open and being flexible with extending that period of time. And so again, I say this to empower anyone, you know, maybe being shy or they don't want to have that conversation with their doctor because
00:28:07
Speaker
they're afraid that they're going to be told no. And so have that conversation. The other thing is, if anyone is experiencing a doctor where they feel like they're not being hurt, go see someone else.
Healthcare Advocacy in Pregnancy
00:28:20
Speaker
There's no requirement that it be the same doctor to extend your post-birth disability period as it was the same as it was the doctor that initially certified. So you can totally go, it is totally fine to go to a different doctor.
00:28:36
Speaker
So, you know, if you're OB, for instance, initially certified your pregnancy disability leave, you know, free birth, let's just say. And if you're having, you know, postpartum depression, it could be a therapist that a psychologist that then a different person that certifies an extension. And that's fine. Because I think a lot of the misconception is, okay, well, my OB is is not is, you know, for one reason or the other, my OB is not
00:29:00
Speaker
giving me extra time. I'm stuck. No, there's definitely options that you different avenues that you can that you can go to. Yeah. And it's your, you know, it's your health. It's your, you know, happy mom, happy baby, happy family, you know, so you really need to take care of yourself and advocate for yourself.
00:29:19
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. I'm so happy to hear that you're seeing that progression in being more open to extending. And it's good to know and to hear and to be able to tell people to not to be afraid to go to a different provider. And we've certainly had that happen where moms will say like, my OB won't extend my leave. They say I need to see a psychologist or a mental health specialist. Can I get that letter from you or that extension from you?
00:29:49
Speaker
And so, and then we can, but it's, it's hard, it's hard work to have to like go and find someone who will actually give this to you. But, but it is, it's worth it. And I think especially if, if you find a therapist who's perinatal mental health specialized, they will automatically know what you're talking about and be able to help you. But hopefully more OBs will continue to get on that as well. Yeah.
00:30:12
Speaker
Yeah, and I am seeing more health care providers who are specialized in pre and postpartum care. It's a continuum. It's a journey. And there's so many things at play, physical, mental, emotional, et cetera. So it's cool to see a lot of progression from health care providers in that regard, too. It's not just black and white medical doctoring that can help with this journey.
00:30:41
Speaker
Again, just kind of maximizing on what your options are and leveraging them to your advantage.
00:30:48
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. What about, I want to ask you two scenarios with moms who are experiencing like severe pregnancy symptoms, like hyperemesis, or do you work with moms who are dealing with that? I do, I do. Yes. So from while pregnant, there's several leave rights that are available to you. Number one, anti-discrimination.
00:31:11
Speaker
Obviously, an employer or boss can't fire you or treat you differently or worse, just because you're pregnant or having these pregnancy complications.
Pregnant Workers Fairness Act
00:31:22
Speaker
The second thing are accommodation rights. Your state might have their own pregnancy accommodation rights, but at the federal level, there is a lead law called the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act. Essentially, what that is is in a pregnant employee,
00:31:38
Speaker
they might need to make changes to their work in order to continue working safely while also maintaining their health and their baby's health. And these changes that they make to their work are called accommodations. And there are several types of examples of accommodations. It could be like changing your work schedule because you are suffering from extreme warning sickness. It could be needing more bathroom breaks because when you are pregnant,
00:32:06
Speaker
you know, babies sitting on your bladder and you're peeing every, you know, couple of minutes, right? Or also, you know, it could also be, you know, like working from home because you might be suffering from, you know, extreme morning sickness and just going to work might be too difficult. You might be experiencing anxiety during your pregnancy. And so work can also be an accommodation, essentially any type of pregnancy condition that makes it difficult
00:32:31
Speaker
or limits your ability to work, but you want to continue working. You can request an accommodation to continue to work effectively and safely. And essentially, once you come up with an accommodation that's right for your needs, an employer can't just say,
00:32:53
Speaker
you know flat out say no to that. There has to be what's called an interactive process to discuss what the accommodation is and then whether or not that fits you know and basically that everyone's happy and essentially an employer has an affirmative duty to make that accommodation happen unless doing so puts that employer at undue financial hardship and that's a really high bar to prove that just because your employer
00:33:19
Speaker
has to work from home or has to start their leave early because of extreme morning sickness or other pregnancy conditions that they're going to completely fall under and they're going to just have to close their doors. That's a pretty high bar. When you're experiencing these extreme pregnancy complications and conditions, definitely look to that. Look to reasonable accommodation as an avenue to help you.
00:33:49
Speaker
The other thing that you can do when you're pregnant is to simply start a leave of absence, whether under FMLA or your state might have their own pregnancy disability leave ball. One thing I'll mention though, is that, you know, before you simply start leave while you're still pregnant, especially if you're like early on in your pregnancy, I would definitely encourage everyone to first look at whether or not reasonable accommodations
00:34:15
Speaker
might be a better avenue for you because the beauty of reasonable accommodation is that you're not forced into starting your leave. You're able to still work in a safe way, right? And so if you're not forced to start leave, let's say there was an employee who was only eligible for federal FMLA, that's 12 weeks of leave that you can take for pregnancy, childbirth, recovery, and baby bonding.
00:34:40
Speaker
If they start their FMLA leave early on in their pregnancy, they're eating into that 12 weeks of leave. And so it's better to leverage reasonable accommodation so that you can maintain federal FMLA maybe for post-birth time. And then the other thing about reasonable accommodation is it allows you to, if you're continuing to work, it allows you to also make wages, right? Because a lot of these leave laws, at this moment, there's no federal paid leave option.
00:35:09
Speaker
And so not everyone is eligible for paid leave. And so if you are not working, you simply will not be making wages and that's really hard. And so if you can, if it works, of course it's, you know, you have to talk to your doctor about this, but if it works for you, if it, you know, as long as it's safe for you and baby and you're allowed to, and you can work with an accommodation, then do that so that you can still continue to make wages. And then again, like I said, leverage a leave law for, you know, post-birth time.
00:35:39
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. And so a lot to a lot to unpack, but definitely, you know, something that something that people should definitely look into. Oh, my gosh, yes. The the original accommodation thing I didn't even know was a thing. Oh, gosh, I know. And it's a newish federal law. It's a federal law. And so this is why I'm super jazzed about it. Because before, there were a lot of states, progressive states that had, you know, like California,
00:36:04
Speaker
baked into our California pregnancy disability leave law, there's accommodations. But not all states have these. And so Pregnant Workers Fairness Act is a federal law. It's new. It became effective June 2023. So many employers might not know about it or talk about it. And so
00:36:26
Speaker
Again, if you're pregnant and you are suffering, you don't have to suffer in silence. Exercise your right to take reasonable accommodation, to ask for an accommodation request so that it keeps you safe. It keeps your baby safe.
00:36:40
Speaker
Yeah, and it's it's okay to put your needs in front of whatever the needs are required of your work. Exactly. Exactly. 100%.
Utilizing Leave Rights Without Guilt
00:36:51
Speaker
You know, I tell my clients this, you know, a lot of sometimes a client
00:36:56
Speaker
might say like, oh, I feel bad that I'm going to be out for X weeks. And I tell them, these are leave laws that are here for you. These are protection that you are entitled to. Again, the laws are there to help us. They are tools to allow us to be out of work.
00:37:17
Speaker
And don't be shy to maximize on these leave rights that you are entitled to. I think the term entitled to entitlement is the key term. If you're entitled to something, take it. Don't be shy to use it. Advocate for yourself. Maximize on it.
00:37:34
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. I really suffered with hyperremesis and sickness in my second pregnancy. And my situation is very unique because I work for a corporation that's my business, so I'm the boss. And so I was able to make
00:37:51
Speaker
my own reasonable accommodations and work from home while I was pregnant and do remote work with my clients. And you know, I'm lucky in that I have that ability to just like make the arrangement essentially with each client. And yeah, but I was working with a therapist throughout my pregnancy because I struggled with prenatal depression and I'm just always in therapy anyway because
00:38:13
Speaker
It's good. And I was towards the end, you know, I had had a set date that I was going to go on leave that I told all my clients and my colleagues and my associates that work in my practice with me. And about like a month before that date, which was originally like two weeks before my due date was just done. Like I was so sick. I truly was physically from this pregnancy and
00:38:38
Speaker
so burnt out and so depressed and I remember sitting here in a similar seat in this room on Zoom with my therapist and after week after week of me just processing and like sharing how horrible I felt she was finally she was like what what would it take what would it look like for you to put your needs
00:38:59
Speaker
in front of your client's needs, which as a therapist or somebody like you, anybody who works with people serving others, it can feel so selfish to put your needs ahead of those that you are being paid to help.
00:39:14
Speaker
Sure. Absolutely. But also for any job, right? Like, obviously, any role as an employee, you have responsibilities to the people you work with or work for. And so that guilt can truly be paralyzing. Absolutely.
00:39:29
Speaker
But her asking me that was like, it gave me permission to do it. And so I did end up starting my leave early. And again, I'm, you know, I don't get paid when I take time off as a business owner, but it it was so worth the headache of having to like,
00:39:46
Speaker
speak with every client about it and move that date up for myself. But I had to do it. And so I just want to really encourage every mom out there to, like you said, exercise your rights and your entitlements and don't be afraid to put your needs first. And I had all this fear like, oh, my clients are going to leave me. They're not going to understand. They're going to think I'm being dramatic. But that didn't happen. It didn't.
00:40:12
Speaker
Yeah. And if it does, like if some people give you pushback, those aren't your people and that's okay. Exactly. 100%. Yeah. I definitely think that when you're in a service provider role, client services, yeah, it's hard. There is guilt. You want to be there for your people. You want to be there for
00:40:35
Speaker
Whether it's customers, clients, patients, etc. But again, when you take a step back, if you're providing a service and you're not 100%, you might not be helping them 100%. I don't want to oversimplify it. I realize that there's nuance and that there's guilt and there's emotion involved. But sometimes you do just have to step back and look at it.
00:41:00
Speaker
you know, black and white so that you can take care of yourself. Yeah. Like take that emotion out of it. And that's why I think someone working with an expert like you could be so helpful because you could make those choices for them and be that like black and white. No, this is how it is. This is what you need to do because all that emotion and guilt can be can make people question themselves and just like not do it and suffer. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a simple.
00:41:29
Speaker
Thank you for what you do and is there some sort of directory where people can find certified family leave specialists like you or in like their state or their area?
00:41:43
Speaker
You know, it's interesting, I feel like there aren't many people like me. Yeah. And I think that so maybe I don't, they're not the best of my knowledge that isn't a directory, right? But yeah, Google, I think is a good source. Instagram, too, is another good source. Yeah, yeah, I found you. Yeah. And again, like, you know, I hope that
00:42:04
Speaker
I definitely don't want to bad mouth the employers and the HR reps because obviously there's going to be good ones who provide education around it. And so if you happen to work for an employer that might have a helpful HR rep, you know,
00:42:18
Speaker
go to them, leverage their health, et cetera. But in the meantime, for anyone needing at least just help figuring out a starting place, a starting plan, feel free to reach out to me. You can find me on Instagram, Maternally411 website, Maternally411.com.
00:42:37
Speaker
happy to help. But yeah, I hope that there's going to be more people like me so that people don't have to suffer with putting the puzzle pieces of a parental leave together. Like I said, it's already hard enough to be a parent and to be pregnant and to be waiting for a baby to come. To be able to take that piece of the million things that you have to do off of someone's plate is something that I really enjoy doing.
00:43:03
Speaker
It's been a pleasure to work with all my clients. That's such a gift. Yeah. Makiko's website has a ton of resources. I see you have a blog as well that has some helpful stuff I've lifted through and then your Instagram and I will link it all. And you're a Newport and you primarily are specialized in California law, but you can also advise nationally, you said. Correct. Exactly. Okay.
00:43:30
Speaker
I'm here to help. I love talking to you. I love talking about pregnancy, babies, and I love nerding out on this friend to leave stuff. So thank you for the opportunity of allowing me to do that. Of course. And I meant to ask you earlier, do you have a background in law? I don't. I don't. My career was in public relations actually. Okay.
00:43:51
Speaker
When everything started, that's when I did a ton of my own research, but through my certification as a disability lead management specialist. And then I also have other credentials like California HR law credentials and things like that, but I'm not an attorney.
00:44:07
Speaker
but my passion kind of is what kick-started it and then with the different types of certifications that I have to keep up throughout every year keeps me on my toes and keeps me very educated on what the leave laws are, new laws that are coming into the picture, changes to the laws because things are always changing, right? And so I love
00:44:32
Speaker
the fact that I'm certified and have, you know, different credentials because it really does. Not only do I love it, but it also forces me to keep up to date on all of the laws at play. Which again is that in and of itself is so helpful because the laws are constantly changing. And as an HR professional or employer, let alone a layperson,
00:44:53
Speaker
to be able to keep up with all that is just not realistic. It's not. That's right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And an HR person, they do so much, right? Yeah. Navigating and managing someone's leave is probably just a tiny sliver of their job. And so I don't blame them. I don't blame them. What I take issue with is when they provide incorrect information. And then when someone does the research and then realize that they were wrong,
00:45:22
Speaker
they don't fix it or they choose not to do their own due diligence on making sure that they're not wrong. That's what I take issue with. Yeah. And that was another thing I forgot to ask you. If someone is going through this and maybe does submit a reasonable accommodation request and they are receiving pushback, do you help them figure out how to script out these conversations and what to say? Okay.
00:45:51
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I will kind of coach them through that entire process. Typically when I work with an individual, I don't work. I don't get involved with the employer because kind of my agreement or my relationship is with me and the client or the employee. So I don't work directly or I don't communicate
00:46:10
Speaker
really much with the employer, but I will help them coach through talking points, or even draft emails for them, you know, what to say, what not to say, how to say things like that. So you're, because, yeah, no matter how much talking, no matter how much you read, once you're in it, and asking for these things, and you're getting pushback, it's scary. And I get that. So yes, absolutely. I'm there to kind of provide that guidance.
00:46:34
Speaker
and kind of that step-by-step ongoing support. And that's beautiful and therapeutic to me because you're teaching people the skills and you're giving them the language and the tools, but you're not doing it for them. So you're also teaching people how to self-advocate and how to communicate. Yeah, that's true. Oh, thank you for saying that. I never thought about that, but yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's really cool. It's harder, but it would be easier if you just did it, but it's way more
00:47:03
Speaker
in the long run, maybe way more beneficial for the person to learn how to do that. Exactly. And it's a very niche benefit. It's a niche service, but one that's needed, right? And it's one of those things where you didn't know you needed until you needed. Happy to be there for that. I'm so glad that you are. I'm so glad to have you to refer clients to and so grateful for you being on our podcast and can't wait to get this information out there.
00:47:29
Speaker
Cool. Well, thank you so much again. It's such a fun time and thank you for the opportunity. Me too. Thanks, Akiko. All right. Talk to you soon. Back to you soon. Thanks so much for tuning in with us today. If you enjoyed this episode and feel like it brought you value, don't forget to rate the show and leave a review.
00:47:47
Speaker
Your feedback means the world to us and helps us know which conversations you are needing the most. And we'll keep bringing you new episodes every week, so hit subscribe so you don't miss a thing. Also, be sure to check out the show notes for any links or resources that we mentioned. We're on this journey with you, so be sure to find us on the Gram and TikTok, plus go to bloomafterbaby.com and grab our free guides on all things motherhood created just for you. Breathe, be well, and keep growing, Mama.