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00:00:01
Re-Release: Hook
18 Plays9 days ago
Prepare for a epic battle- between podcast hosts! Ariel loves this movie and Melinda...not so much. But they can agree that the costumes are great.
We're re-releasing this episode because there's a lot going on this spring, and we love to fight.
Music: Cassette Deck by Basketcase
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to Hot Set. I'm Ariel. This is Melinda with me. Hi. Hi. I feel like I'm being very gentle in this introduction because I'm so excited about this stinking movie that we've definitely hinted towards a few times where there is a line and each of us stand on either side.
00:00:43
Speaker
we are talking today about Steven Spielberg's Hook from 1991 starring Dustin Hoffman and Robin Williams. And a few other people as well. A few others sprinkled in for fun.
00:00:55
Speaker
Oh, goodness. I would just very quickly like to say that this movie was designed by Anthony Powell, who also has designed quite a few things. And I think that he passed away in 2021.
00:01:09
Speaker
But one thing that he um designed that was also super, super interesting ah formative in my life was Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Absolutely.
00:01:19
Speaker
wait And then he also did 101 Dalmatians in 1996. So the Glynde Close 101 Dalmatians and Miss Potter later on in 2006. I haven't seen that one.
00:01:32
Speaker
its seems like kind of a forgotten movie. Yeah. I think it was one of those like sweet Little movies that's like maybe bittersweet something that just kind of.
00:01:45
Speaker
one
00:01:47
Speaker
um But yeah, there's a lot of movies in his oeuvre that I am not that familiar with. But he also did do a nineteen seventy eight s Death on the Niles.
00:01:58
Speaker
yeah one of his one of his three oscar wins for costume design shoot oh wait he also did indiana jones and the temple of doom yeah both and ishtar which i've never seen ishtar i just know about ishtar right and the details are not that forefront in my mind but like that's all i i know about it but i've never seen it walk well cool thank you anthony powell for your work on this film From me. Maybe Melinda would like to ah say some other words. We'll find out. we will i I will say costume-wise, purely costume design, i do think that the costumes were good. There's a couple things where I'm like, I don't know.
00:02:42
Speaker
But generally, Anthony, your work, very nice. Beautiful. good job. Almost like you are an expert and know what you're doing. I feel like I might be hysterical but
00:02:57
Speaker
You turned into like a sports comment. Like, you know what? I respect his game. And he's put in the time. you can't about would not be my draft pick. None of this would be my pick.
00:03:13
Speaker
I just want you dear listeners to know that right before Melinda hit record, she said, want you to pick something from her list that you hate. And then we can cover that. I think it's only fair. And I think that everyone would agree with me.
00:03:31
Speaker
oh
00:03:34
Speaker
Arrogance. you
00:03:38
Speaker
Oh my goodness. I'm so excited. Okay. I don't even know where to begin. um i guess I'll set the stage with how I... Please do. Please do. So I can't remember if we've talked about this on another episode or not, or if it was just between us, but my husband, Phil and i discovered a little while ago through listening to some other podcast or something that there's like a group of people, a messed up, incorrect group of people... Who hate this movie. Can I go beyond their podcast? Can I just... You sit down, you.
00:04:15
Speaker
And I even broached this subject with a friend of mine, Fiona, the other day. And I just casually mentioned that an upcoming episode was this movie and that you had very strong negative feelings about it.
00:04:26
Speaker
And her face was priceless because it mirrored my own when you told me the same thing. And she just said, hate? how could you How could you hate it And like, did it do something to you?
00:04:39
Speaker
Yeah, we will we will find out in this episode. But I genuinely love this movie. And I was actually a few minutes late to this recording because was finishing it and I was really emotional about Peter leaving Neverland.
00:04:55
Speaker
ah I love this movie for very many reasons. And um one of them is that it's Robin Williams. Yes. Dustin Hoffman.
00:05:06
Speaker
Bob Hoskins. you to Maggie Smith. La Grande Dame herself. R.I.P. There's just like so many incredible actors in this. I love it. There's also the music of John Williams, which is like super magical from our childhood. Like John Williams just like nailed so many different things.
00:05:25
Speaker
cinematic scores. yeah And there's a bittersweetness to this movie. And what it means to me, not just as like, oh, I love it because fantastical, whatever. Yes, I was obsessed with Peter Pan as a kid. My seventh birthday was, yes, Peter Pan themed. Was I an asshole on that day? I was. Fantastic. I was dressed as Wendy and my mother made me a kiss necklace with an acorn on a chain that I still have.
00:05:51
Speaker
my God. Because one of my most prized possessions. What a dream. And cake was a crocodile. my God. And it was at the pizza hut in town.
00:06:03
Speaker
Or it was the Pizza Hut that like became a round table that might have become a Pizza Hut again. I don't remember, but it was like a little a pizza restaurant a restaurant that had a room in the back and it looked kind of like a little cottage. It was it like that it was a weird little thing.
00:06:19
Speaker
I just remember like loving the story of Peter Pan in any shape or form that it would be given to me. Like I just, I don't remember. Yeah. But there is a sadness that undercuts this film, this yeah story, because it's, you know, Peter Pan, when he's an adult, he decided to stop being a child and he wanted to grow up and become a father. And then he forgets who he was and he has to remember so that he can save his kids.
00:06:44
Speaker
And spoiler alert. um And I just like love... the performances that Justin Hoffman and Robin Williams bring to this so much because it's like this man who's just totally lost touch with anything that he really loves. Like he's so fixated on becoming ah grownup that he in, in our modern view has kind of become a pirate, which is what grownups in Neverland. oh Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:13
Speaker
And he has to remember things about himself that were purely him. The the wonder. The joy, the wonder. Imagination. Exactly. So it's kind of a film about like, it's okay to hold on to those things and grow up.
00:07:28
Speaker
Like it's okay to love the things that you love throughout your life. And you don't have to there doesn't have to be this door that's shut between you being a child and you being an adult. And I i felt that even when I was little and like not long after this.
00:07:43
Speaker
I don't remember what year it is, but not long after this is like Jumanji, like yeah Aladdin. This is the time when we were all Robin Williams's children in a way. Like he really did touch all of our hearts and all of our lives in this like magical, magical way. And it wasn't always purely like, ho, ho, ho, fart jokes. It was like, right. He, there's really, yeah, he had a range. Yeah. Yeah. A range where it's like, something that has lasted with a lot of us for a very, very long time.
00:08:14
Speaker
I was taken aback. Phil was taken aback. We discovered that not only did a hook shape people in a positive way, it shaped them in a negative way so that they could recognize their nemeside when they see them on the street.
00:08:26
Speaker
And this is our street. And I'd like to shout across the lanes and go, hey, you, Melinda, what's your deal with this movie? Now you speak this crazy faction that hates it so much.
00:08:40
Speaker
but So I was looking for some backup today on my hatred of this movie. And everything that I was finding online was just people being like, i don't know why people hate this movie. I love it so much. and like But I was like, I wanted to read other people's who didn't like it to know if they didn't like it for the reasons that I don't like it and didn't like it as a kid.
00:09:03
Speaker
um and I couldn't find that. So someone please tell me where to go. Cause I just, I'm curious because I'm not saying that I'm right, which obviously I am right, but I'm not saying that you're right.
00:09:16
Speaker
I mean, i know I know in my heart that I'm right, so I don't have to say it because it's just like so so fundamentally there. But i don't think that i would I don't necessarily assume that other people who don't like the movie...
00:09:32
Speaker
feel the same way about it as I do. So I'm, I would be curious to like read other people's opinions to know like what, what turned them off about the movie and you know what it is for me. so i also, just so you know, I have muted myself.
00:09:50
Speaker
So that you could have the space to speak. Oh I don't want you to feel censored. This is a first amendment friendly podcast. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no.
00:10:01
Speaker
This is a, I know that my mouth is large and runs fast and I am choosing to be, i hope, a good friend and podcast partner giving you the space that you should have.
00:10:16
Speaker
Okay. Well, I do want to start by saying that I also absolutely love Peter Pan. It was one of my favorite stories as a little kid. um i was particularly enamored with the animated Disney movie, despite its many flaws, which I was a little happy. We're kind of sidestepped a bit. Yeah, we just like...
00:10:40
Speaker
Casually mention them. Go around that problem. just yeah well That actually was kind of nice. So put one that one on the column of pros for Hook.
00:10:55
Speaker
No, but i I really, really love Peter Pan. um I love the story. And i think what I found so off-putting about the movie as a kid is the loss of of Peter's essence.
00:11:12
Speaker
And i think it's a testament to Robin Williams' performance that i hated his character so much. And the way... that he had become sort of the villain of the story is the way that so many people in real life become the villain in someone else's story by like emotionally neglecting his children and becoming someone who is just obsessed with winning in this creepy corporate
00:11:45
Speaker
world and becoming like a creepy like mergers and acquisitions lawyer, which like even as a kid, you you know that that's like slimy and like gross, like you know that it's bad, even if you don't know what it means.
00:11:59
Speaker
And I think that what bothered me so much is that that is what happens to a lot of people. But we were the age of the kids watching the movie. So you can only watch it from their point of view. Yeah, when you're the same age as like Maggie in the movie, you watch it from Maggie's point of view. And her point of view is that she has this neglectful father that she doesn't even really believe loves her at all.
00:12:31
Speaker
And like, that is true for a lot of people. Like they have terrible relationships with their parents and, and their parents don't go to Neverland and rediscover their childlike, you know, wonder, imagination, joy, happiness, kindness. Like that doesn't happen. That part doesn't happen in real life for people.
00:12:53
Speaker
And It was also kind of fascinating watching it again as an adult and like watching the scenes with Jack and Captain Hook where he is emotionally manipulating him.
00:13:04
Speaker
And it's like, well, of course he is because it's so easy to like poison the mind of someone that doesn't have like a father to to like give them that stability.
00:13:19
Speaker
you know, it's one thing to, you know, to have, know, People don't need like a perfect hetero nuclear family to be good, happy, stable, successful people. But like, he knows that his dad doesn't really prioritize him and care about him, but his dad is still in his life.
00:13:34
Speaker
And so it made him really, really easy to manipulate by Captain Hook. And it's like, yes, that happens to people all the time. So I think it just really bothered me that, that Peter is like the villain of the story.
00:13:47
Speaker
yeah, Watching it again didn't really fix that for me because that is what happens in the movie. Like it's, you know, my, my problem with it is, so is plot based and is story based. And it just makes me sad. It's mostly just that it just makes me sad to have Peter be the villain of the story.
00:14:08
Speaker
i totally was not expecting to say this, but I respect that. We can keep, we can keep recording the podcast. I respect that. I really do. And that's like a really, i think, more thought out rundown than most people who talk about this movie that I've seen who are against it.
00:14:28
Speaker
So what well i We'll get to costumes. Calm down. Jesus. That's not the focus this But like, i Part of why I love this movie is because of everything that you said. Yeah.
00:14:43
Speaker
Because this is from an era that I don't think we really have anymore where real family movies existed. The family movies that we have now are kind of like the family movies, the way that like,
00:14:58
Speaker
you know is it Was it Tipper Gore who fought for the yeah the rating system and music and was like, yeah this isn't appropriate. That's, I feel, how we have family movies now where they have to be sand yes sanitized and so childlike. And then sometimes they have like really weird shit in them. Yeah. like They don't have like a middle ground, I feel. I also do not have children, so I can totally claim that. No, nor are But like when we were growing up, us ah millennials, yeah we we were growing up with older stuff and almost like a Victorian mindset. Not a Victorian mindset in like a prudishness, but in a we have to learn.
00:15:43
Speaker
that people die. We have to learn that people do bad things. We have to learn about sadness. And so there was so much in our childhood and also those people who came before us, but like ours in our generation, we were given magic and it wasn't just the sadness and look at our real world, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. It was tray.
00:16:11
Speaker
Yeah. And like Falcor, like Artex sinking in the in the swamp of sadness in in the never ending story. It was this.
00:16:22
Speaker
It was so many other movies that like taught us about bittersweetness. And that we can watch something that has magic, that has that sweetness and that light that also leaves us thinking about it at the end because it's not perfect.
00:16:39
Speaker
And this is one of those things where it's like, yes, just like you said, this does reflect a reality for a lot of folks. And the reality, even if it's not just an emotionally unavailable parent, it's a parent who's flawed. Right.
00:16:52
Speaker
And so what this showed me as a kid is that families don't – and other movies, even Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. They have like parents who aren't perfect parents. You know what I mean? But like in this one, it was about the emotional side of it. And it's kind of to explain to children – that sometimes you shut something off and sometimes you shut that off because it causes you pain and because you think that you're becoming something better.
00:17:21
Speaker
And in Peter Pan's case, he had run away when in this version, he had run away as an infant, like basically magically called up the wind so that the wind could push his pram away from his parents when he heard about the plan for when he was an adult And he basically ended up following that plan anyway. yeah But when he like goes away and becomes the pan and like lives that experience for a really long time, he looks in the window and he realizes that he wants to give what he didn't have.
00:17:50
Speaker
And I can tell you from my own reality... That was how my mother was. She wanted to give what she did not receive. So I could see that in the adults around me who were trying to live that way, which was by being present or being the parent that they thought that they could be. And maybe in this Peter's version, it was financial stability and then he forgot about everything else. Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:15
Speaker
And thank God for his wife for providing emotional stability. one hundred percent 100%. And it's also like his experience with families was through a window. so like he just saw a picture and the picture he saw was like a mother reading stories to the children and maybe the father would be home at night. But it's like if he peeked in a window during the daytime, he wouldn't see the father because the father was at work. So that's like, also this is because of the time in which he was Peter Pan, which was like,
00:18:43
Speaker
Edwardian era. And so there are all these things that like feed into it. But it just felt like this story is so I feel like one of the reasons to that Robin Williams chose to take the role is because it's not perfect. And because an adult can watch this.
00:19:00
Speaker
and remember something about themselves, that there is a magic that they cared about. And they can look at this movie and go, oh yeah, my kids can see me. They can see all of me.
00:19:13
Speaker
And they can sit on a couch with their children who are also watching this go, I see my parents do that. And I feel that way. And my parents, I guess, have more in them than I know.
00:19:24
Speaker
And then it's, of course, in reality, it's up to those human beings to take whatever lesson they choose. And apply it. In this reality of the movie, he does go on this journey to remember who he was, which was this like magical young man who believed in in living life and like loving everything around him. Because he even loved fighting Captain Hook. like yeah One of the biggest things about the character of Peter Pan is that he loved that fight. loves have war.
00:19:54
Speaker
It's like an archetype book. fight. And so i I love that bitter sweetness because like I walk away from this and I'm just like like knowing too that he's leaving behind these young boys who are going to carry on the tradition of a pan of there being this like loving family of lost boys who remember each other when they leave but like still continue the fight because that's their version of being, you know, free and being yeah children.
00:20:29
Speaker
And I just like,
00:20:34
Speaker
yeah, we'll talk about costumes. But I do, I do want to give you your flowers for having an actual, what I think is a real reason to, to have issue with the plot.
00:20:48
Speaker
um Well, I think it's interesting because think, think that that we both see the same thing in the movie and it just hits us differently yeah but it's like that's why I want to know why other people don't like it if it's for the same reason or if it's for different reasons but it's like I respect this one this one is like no it's too real like in a way where it's like it's too real and it's also like a favorite fairy tale like no oh I think there's just like, there's something so poignantly 90s about like a parent who won't leave their cell phone alone around their family, which is bizarre because it's like that has only become more true. yeah
00:21:34
Speaker
And like my note here, the second note that I put down, when cell phones weren't common... Yes. And that was like, like having one was just like immediately this person sucks. This person is the worst person who's addicted to business. like So shitty.
00:21:51
Speaker
And like, okay, so let's get into it. So yeah, yeah he's he's answering that phone like during his daughter's school play and it's your pan that they're doing in the school play. And I wished as a kid that we had school plays that. my God. Where there's actual...
00:22:06
Speaker
actual set No, we didn't do one school play at my school. Not These kids have these little costumes that we then see a different version of twice. Because we see the flashbacks of Peter Pan's youth where we see um Wendy when she's young and then Moira with a jump scare. Yeah.
00:22:28
Speaker
but government character but it's not true So we see these like frilly nightgowns like a few times. Yeah. And also little Maggie herself is wearing a nightgown for most of the movie. Yes. And then we see. Very Victorian looking. It was very Victorian. Must have been intentional. Okay.
00:22:46
Speaker
We're going to. Just a quick little continue. And then we're going to get right back to nightgowns. Right. I know. But I did really love that the school play, everything in it looked like what an actual school play would look like in terms of like the type of clothing, the type of the set. Oh, it looked like parents helped the kids put it on. Like it was felt like a school play. And I just like loved the meta-ness of it.
00:23:09
Speaker
yeah And that it really did feel like the parents are sitting on a really uncomfortable fucking chairs. They're hating being there. But they're also like, that's my kid. And yeah, for him to to answer that fucking call was just like, you absolute monster.
00:23:24
Speaker
But okay, nightgown aside. So we're the same age. am Am I going to talk about this the whole series? Maybe. Of course. But do you remember, because this feeds into it, that there was a chunk of the 90s where Victorian nightgowns wore a big deal.
00:23:42
Speaker
Absolutely. Thank you. i didn't have one. i didn't have one. did get one. It was very American Girl doll coating. Because my mom for Christmas gave me, she bought one of those Samantha Victorian nightgowns and I wore that thing forever.
00:24:02
Speaker
I loved it so much. There was just something about Victorian frill that And like a secret garden, a little princess, like all these things were happening where it was like, I need that.
00:24:15
Speaker
Like every other episode now, I'm not, we're not going to do like a faithful retelling of the whole movie. I think we're going to spot jump. Like, please. Because like the first part of the movie is just boring, like regular streetwear. Yeah, just regular life. It's just regular life stuff. Except like when when Peter Banning,
00:24:34
Speaker
Banning you guys. ban on hand Banning. ah when think about pan so when he is in his corporate monster element like and he's missing his son's game he is wearing you're like saying goodbye to him as he's leaving basically after the game has ended And he's wearing this like ball cap. It's one of those squishy ball caps from the 90s that has like, a you know, the mesh, the mesh and back.
00:25:00
Speaker
And it's like super bright blue. So it looks like he's never worn it before in his life. And he's got a cell phone holster. And I was like, yeah everything about this is so like 90s corporate.
00:25:13
Speaker
yeah Look at this like maverick yeah with his like spotted tie and his striped shirt. That guy's crazy. Yeah. Every single person in that office was wearing gray.
00:25:25
Speaker
Yes. which Gray and like brown. Gray and brown. And they were also just like deeply like the dorkiest people. so dorky. There was like a dress that actually might have been kind of like a lit kind of green on one of the ladies. Yeah.
00:25:40
Speaker
It was like walking towards him as he's going into the elevator. And I was like that dress I want to talk about. I want to. so It's like a dinner dress, but at the same time also totally suited for a corporate workplace like at that time.
00:25:54
Speaker
But it's also just like that must be the worst polyester in the world. Like I just mad at you for wearing it. I hate that it exists. Like it offends me.
00:26:05
Speaker
It's like everything about the corporate space that we see in this is tailored for children to learn no that bad. Bad, bad. This is where souls go to die. I was also really obsessed with those baseball cats caps because like Jack has one.
00:26:22
Speaker
um Their mom Moira has one on and they they're all just like Huge. Like they're so big. So massive. Nobody adjusted the back because they didn't want to crush their hair. Their giant early 90s hair. You know it.
00:26:39
Speaker
But it was just like, I felt like, were these custom made? Like they're just... The bill of the hat was like extra long. It had no logo. The thing is, that's what they were like. I had a hat like this um when I was on a a baseball team. And it was like, it was before these hats, like basically trucker hat, ball caps became like cool. They were these massive duck bills that were like actually meant to cast shade. Yeah.
00:27:09
Speaker
And they were so stupid. like there was no looking cool in them. It was like, um like Smalls from Sandlot and lot in his weird fishing hat. Like it was just, you're just like, just like I hate this hat. It just doesn't sit naturally on anybody in this movie.
00:27:26
Speaker
And um it was wild. So um I'm going to be, and I made a note specifically to mention it this way. I'm going to be the the Lord of the Rings fan who always has to sit through the Lord of the Rings two towers and always at the right time has to go.
00:27:41
Speaker
Did you know that Viggo Mortensen actually did break his toe when he kicked the helmet at the edge of Fangorn? Because somebody has to be that guy. so Yeah. And I'm that guy. Just me. So first little tidbit.
00:27:54
Speaker
When the family is on the plane on their way to England to see J. Maggie Smith, i.e. Wendy Darling herself, there is an announcement by the captain about like, please stay seated, etc.
00:28:08
Speaker
Did you notice anything about that? You know, I did not. I read about it later, but I did not pick it up in the moment. It's Dustin Hoffman. He is the captain of the plane. And I thought that was a great detail that I have not noticed once before in my life. know did you you hurt When you heard it, you could tell? i heard it and I was like, wait a second.
00:28:31
Speaker
so Oh my God. If only we'd gotten ah in an in the distance shot of Dustin Hoffman as an airplane captain Just like turning around his shoulder, just like winking at the camera. yeah and With a long wig.
00:28:46
Speaker
i'm we have to talk about that wig. We are so getting there. So we see the London everything. I loved Liza and God, why am I already forgetting his name? Toodles.
00:29:00
Speaker
Toodles. Because they feel like they're dressed in kind of a stereotype of what we think older country folk in the UK are like, which is just like comfy sweaters. you know they're They're basically like the real world equivalent of a hobbit where they're not wearing like bodices and and that they are wearing vests.
00:29:20
Speaker
But, like, they're wearing the layers to be cozy and so warm and talking about tea and marbles, you know, just like... So, like, we're hitting that. And then we also have this, like, amazing, amazing performance by Maggie Smith where she has so much age makeup on like So much. And it was kind of wild. Like, I didn't remember...
00:29:47
Speaker
what her face looked like. yeah and I was like, okay, but like, they kind of got it in terms of what she's going to look like when she's older. yeah The style of makeup that they did could have been that like, this is also me being ignorant because makeup is not my department.
00:30:02
Speaker
But like, there is that technique that, again, they used in Lord of the Rings Two Towers. Yeah. Asian makeup where it's essentially like a ah glue your face and like you make extreme expressions and then they heat it to set it and you relax your face and it keeps all these micro wrinkles. yeah And it's like they did that and that one is really great for film. And I say glue but it's really like I mean, I don't know what it's made of. So glue sounds fine.
00:30:29
Speaker
Who cares? We're not talking about makeup. But the makeup on this movie was great. And that was one of the first ones that just like really stands out because Maggie Smith was not that old when this movie came out. No. She was like 50 something. Yeah, she was in her 50s. And like she looks the way that she ended up looking like into the 2020s. And so it was kind of weird to see Maggie Smith. But she has this like incredible style to her where she just has this like regal elegance in everything that she's wearing.
00:31:00
Speaker
And they're going to this like award ceremony and she's dressed kind of like sort of like an early 1920s. She really was like, they really played up hair. Yeah. Yeah. she really was dressed like Mrs. Darling. Like she really. and that was such an interesting choice because I was like,
00:31:20
Speaker
Okay, they definitely did that on purpose. but like And you kind of get it because just of what the movie is. but And I was also acutely aware on this watch that but Robin Williams was dressed like Mr. Darling. Yeah.
00:31:35
Speaker
He is the archetype of Mr. Victorian husband. yeah And like in his evening wear, which I love that he's wearing this evening wear almost the entire movie.
00:31:47
Speaker
yeah And I love the The arc of the evening wear because it's like he's being beaten up in it. He's getting so dirty in it. It kind of almost becomes like pirate like at one point because. Yeah. like It's like a button up shirt and. Yeah.
00:32:03
Speaker
Like a tux shirt. Oh, it's just getting beat to hell. Yeah. The red suspenders were an unexpected detail for that, that I was sort of like, I feel like it's sort of like a hint or a foreshadow, but like, not something I would expect to be. Yeah, that item to be the hint or the foreshadow. so that was kind of like, oh, like, i I was very aware of them.
00:32:27
Speaker
Yeah. I liked it it. was like one of the only ones that made sense. Cause like if, if they had done something else, it would be like a cummerbund and like, what are you going to do? Keep that on forever. And or like buttons. Right. Evening.
00:32:42
Speaker
Yeah. You know, suit. And so I like loved that. I just loved these like little hints to tie him hook that he has grown to be his own enemy.
00:32:52
Speaker
He kept doing the Peter Pan pose. He did. And when Maggie Smith like holds up the Peter Pan book. And is like, this is you, Peter. And he's like, he's got the stance that he drops his arms and he's like, and I just like loved that inner place so much where he's like, grandma.
00:33:12
Speaker
but She's like, well, maybe first love. How would you feel your fantastical, mythical, like adolescent boyfriend married your granddaughter?
00:33:26
Speaker
I would have so many. I think I would have all the same feelings that ah Wendy Darling had where she was like, well, on my wedding day, hoped that you would... come back and marry i'm also like wendy you got married in your teens maybe 20 21 22 and uh peter was 12 mean she was also 12 when yeah they were when she met him but if he was still i know he would still be 12 i'm it listen i'm not saying it interrupted her wedding don't know
00:33:58
Speaker
You know, like, i don't, I don't think so. I just think it's Emotionally, I'm, I guess you, because he's an eternal creature, but at the same time, like, but he is a child. That's, that's kind of his whole thing. That's his thing. Yeah. And you're, you've, you've, you've gone past it.
00:34:14
Speaker
A little bit. so Sorry. I just think it's kind of not cool on his part to marry her granddaughter. Oh, no. I think it's super messed up. And it's also like that's the the heartbreaking part, right? Is that that's like what people talk about with the actual book of Peter Pan yeah is that he's a cruel child. Yes. Because You love him and it's the cruelty of children.
00:34:35
Speaker
You love them. And until they reach an emotional place of maturity where they can discover how to communicate how they feel about things, you feel like you love them more than they love you. Right. Because you don't know. they're not.
00:34:52
Speaker
Loves the lost boys. He loves his life. He loves these things. But he also loves being free and being eternal and not being attached to anything beyond being the pan. That's the heartbreak for Wendy is that she leaves and he forgets and he forgets her and everything that she learned from him and from that world.
00:35:13
Speaker
doesn't mean anything to him anymore beyond basically a fairy story of his own. it is that cruelty. And I think that it's something that you'd have to like war with and be very deeply aware of how painful that is. But could you imagine being a therapist and having a client?
00:35:30
Speaker
feel like my eternal first love is now married. My granddaughter. no. My granddaughter, Gwyneth Paltrow. Peter Just like, that's so terrible. just like that so Like in that way, you think that that would, you know, make me more empathetic to this movie because the character of Peter Pan is kind of cruel and is not like full of kindness and whatever. But I feel like especially the Disney version kind of downplays that. that like it does it does because it removes that victorian part of it does when jay and barry was writing it which is about that and yeah it just lets it be an adventure for children magical yeah yeah and it's not like a and later you grow up and you go but wait what happens because if he stays young and everybody else keeps growing up what happens and then you have to think about what does that mean for everyone else and
00:36:27
Speaker
yeah And so this is that exploration. What does it mean? I do think it's interesting that Steven Spielberg doesn't really like this movie in retrospect. Interesting. or me or maybe he's, or I don't know, he's said at various points that he doesn't like this movie.
00:36:45
Speaker
And I think at various points he said that he's... not like he's gone back and forth about whether he likes the movie or not it seems like he did not enjoy the process so i think that always colors your oh opinion of a project afterwards are you kidding okay let's do a quick hopscotch because i i was debating whether or not to mention this i didn't even put it in my notes but there is a point Okay. Smee is the best assistant that anybody could ever ask for. it Absolutely. Dustin Hoffman has the, the best. I love his performance of hook here because there are hooks that we see that are really cold, that are one dimensional, that are like super calculating and that's it.
00:37:30
Speaker
And in this one, he is those things, but he's also super dramatic, melodramatic, and, operatic in his drama and like has anxiety issues he's a messy bitch who lives for the drama he's a bitch who lives for the drama and I was like maybe I've already talked about this too much with like Sauron but he's basically the Sauron of this movie where he's like gaslight gatekeep girl boss and he's just like what is it and he like emotionally manipulates everybody like he has this speech to a ship full of pirates and he's like
00:38:09
Speaker
there's one of you who doesn't belong here. is And like, there's a pirate sitting next to Peter. Who's like, uh, is it me or is it you? And it turns out to be that pirate. Do you know anything about that pirate, Melinda?
00:38:21
Speaker
I do now. Great. It's Glenn Close, everybody. It's Glenn Close. and She looks incredible. She looks incredible. And like, Even as a kid, there's something about her voice that like makes you go, this is familiar, but not. yeah But the prosthetics, the wig, that yeah the costuming for her is like so fucking great.
00:38:42
Speaker
And then she gets shoved into the boo box to be killed by scorpions. So me in the o he's mean. mean. They're mean pirates, but they're also very brightly dressed pirates. like I think that the Glenn Close one was the most...
00:38:58
Speaker
muted out of all of them because there's like a warm earth tone thing happening but then there's like bright blues and like yellows crimson yeah a lot of crimson and there's a scene okay this is where i was heading i'm so sorry future editing melinda but uh i'm just gonna leave it the way it is there's a scene later where hook is like well I'm ready to die.
00:39:21
Speaker
but He's like, I guess I'm just, don't try to stop me. Don't try to stop me. Don't try to stop me. Try to stop me. It's me. Why aren't you trying to stop me? And I was like this. And Smee is like across the room just going like, huh? Just watching.
00:39:36
Speaker
And he's like, why aren't you trying to stop me? i just like that whole scene. I was like, this feels like. backstage. This feels like a production process that you could pull from this and see somebody who's like having an emotional meltdown at a certain part of production and is just like struggling. And I mean, all of us have been through it like at different levels, right? Where the stress gets to you and you start to just like lose it. You're just like, sometimes it goes, not all of us, but sometimes it goes into a direction where you're just like,
00:40:11
Speaker
everything's on fire and everyone is on fire. and then you're like, well, I guess I'm just the bad guy. and like, we've all seen that. yeah Your assistant is the one who has to put out all the fires and also also go, you're not the bad guy. You're okay. You're doing great, sweetie. Do you need some water? Do you need a snack? Are you okay?
00:40:29
Speaker
And like, I feel like we've all been in that place emotionally and um on any side of it. And yeah again, to differing degrees, but I was like, you could blow that out and just put that as any workplace.
00:40:41
Speaker
Yeah. And just be like, oh, Smee. This job is not OSHA compliant. It's also like, where's HR? You're HR. Uh-oh. I think that cannon over there is HR.
00:40:53
Speaker
And so I was just like, oh, I can't talk about that because that's ridiculous. But here I am talking about it anyway. Okay. So freaking Dustin Hoffman. ah Oh, my God. Yeah. Captain Hook is in this incredible, incredible crimson getup with black tights.
00:41:13
Speaker
And I liked the black tights, by the way, because usually when you see Captain Hook animated or otherwise, white. Always white. Always. uh, Alice in Wonderland has become canonically blue dress because of Disney.
00:41:25
Speaker
And it's, it feels like it's the same thing. It's amazing how that stuff happens. Yeah. And it's so pointless. I don't get it. Like one makes sense. Why does it have to be all of them? I don't get that.
00:41:36
Speaker
But with this one, I liked that he had his little black tights. And all the gold everywhere. And this giant right wig. And he is basically dressed, is it like late 15th, no, late 16th century, early 17th century? i looked up what king it was that his hair exactly is. And it's Charles the second who became the king in the early 1600s. The Reformation essentially what we're looking like. yeah And i
00:42:07
Speaker
love that period and I think it comes down to this because I did in college a design for the misanthrope where it's the 80s pop culture meets the Reformation. Beautiful. Because you look at those two periods and they're actually really not that far apart. Quite similar. It's crazy. so yeah, he's got this like Glorious. lowing What do you call the wigs?
00:42:31
Speaker
There's a name the wigs. I just don't think. I know this is not right. But the little like poof. on The two little twin poofs on the top. Always make me think of like cat ears. Yes. And then. woine my Beautiful flowing black.
00:42:49
Speaker
Collarbone length locks. Of just this all these messy curls. i actually don't know what those specific wigs are called. periwigs. They're called periwigs. And so he's wearing a periwig, a really, really long, curly wig.
00:43:04
Speaker
but so I just love it so much. it's so There's so much camp to it because it's like with every motion, there's frilly lace everywhere. His cuffs are frilly lace.
00:43:15
Speaker
yeah And this is a thing that I love about the Reformation period is that it's also a period where Now, today in fashion, we have very gendered colors. And there were very gendered colors throughout history as well. But pink is now very coated Barbie girl.
00:43:31
Speaker
Blue is very masculine, Boy, boy, boy. boy and back then Blue was feminine. Pink was masculine. And so that was also the time where heels, heels were made for men. Heels were made for men to feel taller.
00:43:45
Speaker
Yep. And later became ah part of women's wear. But like in this period, men are wearing heeled shoes. They have excesses of lace everywhere.
00:43:57
Speaker
The periwigs. They have all of these things. Satins and silks and gold. Embroidered things. And of course, we're talking about very, very wealthy folk.
00:44:08
Speaker
of course Literally like the 1%. I mean, people would get robbed for their lace. That's how much lace was worth. Yeah. But I just like love the the overall camp of it.
00:44:19
Speaker
yeah like While we're not talking about actual historical ah ramifications of it, we're talking about just just the Captain Hook being dressed in this period is so great because he's like whipping that hook around so dramatically with like the cuffs.
00:44:34
Speaker
And he always has like a different hook for a different day. And just like everything is so precise. And like a handkerchief, I'm sure, precise. in there like i just uh chef kiss and the performance with the the the very specific mustache like and then the like the reveal at the end the vulnerability yeah and i love the moment where he says Give me my dignity. And he hands the wig back to him.
00:45:07
Speaker
Because it's like the image, the image is so much of it. Yeah, the image is is everything. And it's like yet another commentary on, you know, growing into adulthood is like,
00:45:19
Speaker
trying to hide the aging to keep like the sense of virility and the fight and all of these things. And he's just like, and even if it's just posturing, it's like super important. And it's super important that the the boys in Neverland never feel empathy for the pirates. And if the pirates never see the boys as humans, like only basically prey or pests.
00:45:41
Speaker
And so like having this moment, where you can see that and captain hook putting word to it to be like stop it give me my my image back it's just like not yeah i just i love that i love that writing in everything but it's also like they gave him this just like little white sad oh his balding head little wispy hair wisps of hair and um Oh, okay. So another ah Lord of the Rings Fangorn Forest ah trivia little thing for you is that um when the kids are stolen, kidnapped by the pirates, the pirates that we we haven't seen yet at that point in the movie, the cop who comes in yeah to investigate, Phil Collins.
00:46:26
Speaker
That is such a weird detail. There are so many people in this movie that are just like in there for... it Was it like Jimmy Buffett? No, there's like a bunch of random people.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah. They're just... Okay. know Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I love it. But okay, Tinkerbell. We have not mentioned Julia Roberts in this movie. Powerhouse. she was like even heading towards the height of Julia Roberts. She hadn't done Erin Brockovich aaron brockovi yet yeah and um Hadn't done My Best Friend's Wedding yet. Hadn't done My Best Friend's Wedding. Isn't that crazy? Like she's so little.
00:47:03
Speaker
And i have to say, i love her costume for Tink in this one. I'm going to respectfully disagree with That's totally okay. What I love about it is that there's two things. One is that she looks like a dried autumn leaf.
00:47:18
Speaker
um And the other one is that she is matching Peter Pan. Because later on when we see him return to his Peter Pan-ness at the end of the movie, he's wearing exactly the same costume but in green.
00:47:30
Speaker
And I also didn't like I know. Like I get the the cut, the fit. I get that. But I also – And the materials. I disagreed with the material choice. can see that because like there's also – I think that if it were done now, there would be more layers, more color, more painting, more texture. There would be more going on and I would root for that.
00:47:48
Speaker
But I think I just was so relieved to see this female character a miniskirt. any skirt sexualized. And not sexualized that she was like – another little feral creature and that she does look like a little leaf.
00:48:03
Speaker
was like, I love those things, but I do, i can give way to to critique being, uh, in existence. i i didn't I didn't disagree with the idea of the costume. I just, yeah, i felt like it was a little plain.
00:48:20
Speaker
um i felt like there could have been more happening there, especially because the Lost Boys are so layered and they have like they have the the remnants of their like real world clothes, but they've been augmented, they're distressed, they've incorporated natural...
00:48:41
Speaker
things from their environment into their clothes like feathers, leaves, grass. There's so much texture when we're in London and when we're yeah with the Lost Boys and when we're with the pirates. The pirates have so much going on.
00:48:54
Speaker
So much. I would love to know why there was not as much going on with Peter's archetypal costume and with Tink's. yeah Because I do agree with all of that. There's just not enough. There's not enough texture. There's not enough anything. It just feels like an introductory costume project where here, learn how to make a shirt, learn how to make shorts yeah out of like a stretchy cut, like a cotton. Here's how you make an elastic waistband and here you go.
00:49:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:22
Speaker
a little bit like it got beaten about with a couple of colors it's not just straight brown and in his case like i know like i think but both their costumes are made a sue right yeah and yeah because um and like his head like sue cut out leaves and i'm like just put real leaves I mean, that also, like on top of the suede cutouts, i would love like the layering of that because we do see that they can do that with the armor yeah that the Lost Boys have, which was so great. That was like an explosion that you don't – I mean, of course, i love we've seen this before. But like you don't expect it as like a first-time viewer to like have all this stuff happen. It's almost like samurai armor made out of like bamboo that like rolls down like curtains and then just gets cut out.
00:50:08
Speaker
Yeah, it was great. It's so cool. And it's like all made out of stuff that's around them. And it's really, really. continue that. i know. Especially since like Tinkerbell is only of Neverland. Like she doesn't.
00:50:23
Speaker
There's no other existence her. And Peter, even though he ah you know started out as like a baby in the real world, he is of Neverland. Yeah.
00:50:35
Speaker
And so you don't even have to have like a base of real clothing for No, you can totally use the things around you. be just totally... found art objects. I wonder if that's a little bit of the reasoning for why they didn't do Why they went the other direction? Yeah, because when when Tink is in the dollhouse and she's trying to convince Peter to to like fly, let's get to Neverland, let's beat Hook's ass and get your kids.
00:51:00
Speaker
Yeah. She's laying down pretending to be dead and you can see like this exaggerated stitching On the side scenes. Yeah, it's like turquoise. Yeah. And so like you see these things and you could you can almost then take the intellectual leap that their argument would be everybody else has all this stuff going on because they brought it from somewhere else.
00:51:21
Speaker
Could be. But – but we We do see the armor that the kids make, which is super ingenious with stuff that's all around them. We do see mermaids. oh And those mermaids are some of the best mermaids I feel like we've ever seen in film. I love them. They're so stunningly beautiful. Like their wigs, the makeup. I've always loved the mermaids in Peter Pan because they're so mean. They're just so mean. yeah they're terrible and petty and all of these things. And I love them. Like me. That's why I feel kinship to the mermaids.
00:51:55
Speaker
But they're just like so magical. And they're kind of our first... vision they really are neverland we don't get to spend much time with them no it's just like a little blink and you really want more and um so they're like super saturated and wonderful and beautiful and then we get yeah the the the lost boys with their ingenuity so yeah i can also agree with you that that tink's costume and ah peter's costumes are a letdown compared to everything else i like them as a beginning I like them.
00:52:25
Speaker
I like the idea that Tink is wearing shorts. So it's utilitarian. And I like that it's not sexualized. And I like that she is matching Peter because they're both yeah like kind of a heart of Neverland.
00:52:39
Speaker
yeah Like there's just something. They could have both just been made of leaves. Like it could have been like, cause that's kind of where they were going. So it's like, it's it's like a beginning if they had pushed it.
00:52:49
Speaker
And just gone way further than it would have been far better because the the level of costumes that everybody else has is so great. And I also was like, the Lost Boys are basically the Newsies. of They really, really are.
00:53:04
Speaker
like they're just i was really obsessed with the twins that were dressed like Boy Scouts. I was like, did they get lost on a camping trip? That's what I'm getting from They're like Roosevelt era. Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:16
Speaker
Boy Scouts. And it's just like, yeah, it seems like they got lost and carried away Neverland. Right? Like there's a search party looking for them in the forest at like a jamboree and they're no gone They're just off in the stars. oh my God.
00:53:30
Speaker
i think that this is where, this is one of the many movies with costumes where I fell in love with layering and texture and where I also fell in love with fantasy not necessarily looking like what you expect it to look like.
00:53:49
Speaker
Sure. Because like when people think of fantastical or fantasy things, they think high fantasy. They think elves. They think armor. They think a very like English- Like based on – Yeah, like based on the Middle Ages for some reason. Like there's a very – Yeah, tight imagined thing.
00:54:08
Speaker
to me, this is like, no, you can make fantasy out of anything. Because like these kids have been plucked from a life and there's no reason for it that we're ever given. But they just live forever in this fantastical place, wearing these clothes that came from the world with them. hmm. And yet they're repairing them or altering them through time sometimes with some things that exist in the world that they're in now.
00:54:33
Speaker
and So it's like, you can take anything and you can age it, you can dye it, you can mix it with something you're not expecting it to be with. And then there we go. Boom. Something that doesn't exist for real in the world that we know, that has elevated it to a place where it is fantasy. Like those pirates are all pirates who are let's be real, their costumes have been distressed to a point. They look like they've been sweat in. They look like they've been dunked in seawater. But they're also like ridiculously clean because those colors are so saturated and so bright.
00:55:06
Speaker
yeah And like some of those whites are like Pretty crisp linens. And so it's like there's there's something there that's not reality.
00:55:17
Speaker
And it's subtle enough that there's just so much of it. That's what makes you realize that it's there. It's like what you want. It's like a pirate so it's like the ride of the Caribbean. Thank you. Yes. Because this this to me, I think, is what like unlocked a pirate.
00:55:34
Speaker
but and then when we finally got pirates of the caribbean it was like thank you like that felt like the next step of this right it's like scary swashbuckling pirates that aren't really scary yeah it's fun yeah it's a fun thing they're they're cool which i mean you can you can argue that like actual pirate societies when they were thriving there was some interesting stuff happening Yeah.
00:55:58
Speaker
Pretty developed societies. But like, I did note down and in all caps with one, two, three, four, five, five O's. Rufio.
00:56:11
Speaker
We've got Dante Bosco. Oh my God. Oh man. Rufio. I never liked Rufio. That's your problem. i felt like Rufio was the child who was stolen from the late 70s, early 80s and really has to be loud in order to like hold down his authority as a lost boy. yeah Because like he is wearing leather that has been like stripped on the shoulders and beaded. He's got like the hair. hair twin mohawk the shoes melinda he's got red booties with super long red laces that crisscross around his ankles a bunch of times like there is something so purely other lost boys the movie about the vampires about him that is just like
00:57:04
Speaker
I loved Rufio. And like I loved him so much. Because he's also the exact antithesis of what you think about when you think of of Peter Pan. like He just visually does not, he's not a little white boy. He's not wearing you know like a leafy green situation with his hands on his hips.
00:57:23
Speaker
He looks like he's like going to swoop in as he does. It's like, amazing surfboard on a track situation, which is a me it is child labor.
00:57:34
Speaker
Pretty cool. I'm not going to. I think my aversion to Rufio is mostly just like, he feels a bit like ah the Prince John in the Robin Hood story. Like he saw an opportunity to seize power and he took it. And he did.
00:57:51
Speaker
in that way, it is is kind of perfect. Like he's he is the right man for the job. So yeah. yeah i don't I don't actually hate Rufio. You're fighting Peter and you're trying to take Peter's spot.
00:58:04
Speaker
yeah Which I'm like, yeah, of course he is. Who else was going to do it? Yes, there was a vacuum and somebody had to step in so the Lost Boys didn't lose their you're whimsy. Need a strong leader to rule with an iron fist over And he had like amazing like Susie and the Banshees eye makeup. There's just like this like crazy stuff to him that I was like, this is an era that I would not associate because we see so much like Newsies of the twenties, the, the Roosevelt boys, the, the like Victorian children and the, like the pirates throughout history. And he's kind of the most modern aside from Peter and Jack and Maggie.
00:58:43
Speaker
And I just like, I just like love that character. in life And I cry when he dies. it's like every time i'm just like not in neverland no one supposed to die in neverland i'm i'm yeah that's actually not okay just like this is horse shit just how dare you even as like six-year-old i was like oh what but like i just oh and i also have a note here because there's this whole like
00:59:15
Speaker
we got to get Peter in shape so he can fight Hook and save his kids. That's like the mission. right so the kids vote essentially like, okay, we'll take that on. It's just like, because they talk about loving to kill pirates and the pirates talk about loving to have war against the Lost Boys.
00:59:33
Speaker
And i was like, do you think that the Lost Boys murder pirates via physical activity and stress? Like what they're doing to Peter is just chasing him around this like... peak that they like live on and he's like yeah he's just like constantly horrified and like startled and then they're he's like carrying kids running like doing a physical exercise while they're singing to him that he's super fat like
00:59:57
Speaker
They're just like negging him and just like stressing him out. It's like, is that how you kill pirates? Because it's a very long, long game. i want to i want one of those pirates to write a memoir called like Negged to Death, a pirate story.
01:00:13
Speaker
It's like, what are the rules here of the society? Because they keep shooting you with arrows and they're like, we're a real threat. And then they're like, basically plunger arrows. They're like, we're shooting you with Primary colored tempura. Yeah.
01:00:28
Speaker
The tempura paint. The budget for tempura paint on this film must have been crazy. And like, I, I just like, ah just to reiterate, cause I just hit it The note for me is like,
01:00:42
Speaker
ah This just set such a standard for me as a kid. I was like for immersiveness with the things that people were wearing. And so it's funny because like I just hadn't consciously thought about the Tink and in that Peter Pan not being as immersive.
01:00:55
Speaker
What do you think about Tinkerbell's glow up when she's in that big ass ball gown? So I have a note about it and I didn't go super deep. I just – but we can.
01:01:07
Speaker
So did you ever see Peggy Sue – when Peggy Sue got married? Yeah. No. Oh, that's a movie we're going to have to talk about at some point. I tell you, this season is not going to end.
01:01:18
Speaker
That movie was also filmed in Sonoma County in Petaluma. So that is a local legend. um I might've actually seen it. we there We did a whole month of watching movies that were filmed. Yeah. and So it was one of my mom's favorite movies.
01:01:32
Speaker
And it was one of those where it's like, my mom loves this movie and I don't get it. And it's also one of the, one of Nick Cage and Jim Carrey's early movies. And, um, So I would watch it as a kid and be like, don't get it. This movie makes me feel really uncomfortable. And i was like, that's actually why, you know, adults probably love this. it's just like,
01:01:51
Speaker
Not just because it makes you uncomfortable, but the reason why i would be uncomfortable is because it's about an adulthood that isn't just pure happiness and sunshine. Yeah. But there's a prom dress in that. no No, no, It's a reunion dress where Kathleen Turner is wearing it. And it's this kind of silver. And it is like, it fits in that one because of like the era, what we're doing there.
01:02:13
Speaker
Yeah. But in this one, this, if I were designing something, I would... I think want to push this gown with the same things that we were talking about with Tink's other costume, yeah which is more texture yeah because this gown is beautiful and wonderful, but it's also very labyrinth.
01:02:38
Speaker
Yes. Which Labyrinth is also fantastical, all of these things. But there's the more of the glitter in Labyrinth. and So it kind of fits that world a little bit more. yeah Whereas this is like, okay, well, we brought in the eighty s And this like, who whatever fabric it, like it feels with your eyes, it feels like it's a polyester. And yes it could not be, but the level of shine. It's very, yeah, it's very unnatural. It's very unnatural. And if i I feel like I can feel the texture of it.
01:03:11
Speaker
it's like I think for for this one, because it's so silvery, it's so shiny, it's so like iridescent. If they had gone like... Like she's making herself into like a snowflake look. Like if they had, cause like that's kind of the feeling that I get from this color palette. So I'm like, if they wanted to do that and make it look like it's like made of ice or something. Yeah. That would be really interesting. Also, or if they had kind of gone with this color palette with more gauzyness.
01:03:41
Speaker
Yeah. Something in there to break up the hard, plastic bright feeling yeah because like there's there are some fabrics from when we were growing up in the 90s that I don't think that we really have anymore no because they're like it's like you know like the way that you have to make like children's pajamas have to be made of like flame retardant fabrics now like when we were growing up and it was not not even an idea like what what would actually explode if we if we set it on fire can we make there it out of that there are a lot of like
01:04:16
Speaker
treatments where if you're super into into vintage clothing or if you work in like a costume warehouse or if you have like an extensive collection of older clothes or have access to that, you'll have more likelihood of seeing this kind of stuff. But there are fabrics that we just don't have in regular stores anymore. So we've kind of lost that tactile experience.
01:04:37
Speaker
Even like lunch bags from when we were growing up. It's just like that kind of textile. Just we don't come across the same. Yeah. And this dress feels like something very much of that time.
01:04:47
Speaker
And like I – yeah, I just – every time I see it, i love that she's so bright. And i I also add it again in all caps, there's the glitter because it's like finally we have our glitter moment.
01:04:59
Speaker
yeah And I love that she is supposed to be like this little starburst. But the way that it's executed – especially now that I'm looking at it after you mentioned it, is like, why isn't there kind of, why didn't we push it a little further with Tink? Yeah. like It looks like a Disney princess. It does.
01:05:17
Speaker
And that is such a conversation which we're going to have right now. Isn't that crazy that like, there are so many Disney There's princesses that are pretty flat. It's just like color blocking. It's just like solid. Yeah. And they sell the costumes to the kids, color blocked. But then you go to a park and the actual characters, you see that they have started the past decade or 15 started to incorporate actual texture elements.
01:05:42
Speaker
started to incorporate actual like texture In the in the the design of it. So that it's not just flat color. Just like a flat satin. It's like got something going on. and it's like still like we still recognize. Ah that's Cinderella. Ah that's whoever. yeah And so this does feel very much like that. And it it's like.
01:06:02
Speaker
It really does stand out. It stands out not only because she's super silver. But it stands out because there's just. It's not as magical as you kind of want it to be. It's such a surprise. Like, it's, it just kind of, you're like, huh? Like, yeah, I think that's it. It's surprise. that The wig is bad.
01:06:18
Speaker
I'm sorry. Yeah, the wig is, is, is interesting. It's, it's, um, I just. a lot happening with the wigs with Julia Roberts. and Yeah. And that's, i like, I don't mean to denounce anyone's work, but, like, yeah.
01:06:33
Speaker
I didn't understand. no It's just it's choices that we might not make now that were probably justifiable at the moment. yeah And like, great. But also like looking at it now we go, why did we go that direction? Yeah, the dress is just like a moment where I feel like my eyes kind of skitter to a stop.
01:06:52
Speaker
Right. And it's like, okay. And it also feels like a little like a little girl's idea yes of what a pretty woman looks like. In a pretty woman, Julia Raddatz.
01:07:04
Speaker
But like, and that thought makes sense for Tinkerbell because she's wanting. Developmentally. Yeah. Like she, that's like, she's wanting Peter to see her that way.
01:07:16
Speaker
In that moment. And so like that could be like a child's idea of what it but it's it just like I think that you could push it further and like take it into something that because it's sort of like.
01:07:34
Speaker
Why would Tinkerbell think of this yeah dress? Like, what would be the Neverland version of this idea? There's something in me that wants it to have been the result of when Wendy existed as a young woman, where finally Tinkerbell had like a female dress.
01:07:54
Speaker
influence and that in the time that wendy was there that they neverland no that they connected with each other and like even if like wendy was telling a fairy tale to the boys right tinkerbell was also listening if not also having conversations later with wendy about like what's pretty like tell me about this stuff yeah And that this is something that would be reminiscent of that.
01:08:17
Speaker
But what i what what i want from that is that it would then visually reflect that era of what Wendy knows. yeah Because the silhouette of this is like an evening ball gown, which you could argue...
01:08:31
Speaker
would land you in like a very specific, it looks like there should be stays involved, that kind of thing. Yeah. Or like a corset. Too far in the past. for Too far in the past, but also like too close to a prom dress. Yeah.
01:08:44
Speaker
And so it it does feel like I, I want it to have a little bit more of that Victorian sensibility that Wendy would have carried from when she was young because then it would have felt like it came from somewhere. right Like even if it was just like silhouette a little bit more, it would have felt like that. And then if it, if it had been made even back then, like if Wendy had helped Tinkerbell make this dress and then she like took it out of a of a trunk, it would have been great if it had been added to over time, you know, like Tinkerbell had added her own
01:09:21
Speaker
shenanigans to it or something to make it more grounded in Neverland and more Tinkerbell. Because it it what it effectively does is it feels un-Tinkerbell because this is the first time that Peter's seeing Tinkerbell as yeah tiny woman. And it's very different. that It's so far from yes what we've seen Tinkerbell wear in this movie that you're like, oh, huh?
01:09:46
Speaker
Yeah, it's the it it's how she took her glasses off moment. Yeah. She's not hideous anymore. so Like it, it just, there's something about it that I want it to be grounded again, yeah where it could still be super shiny and super silvery, but then like maybe have some of that magical influence of the mermaids or something, you know, cause it's like she Tinkerbell could talk to them cause they hang out in a lagoon. They're not always deep underwater.
01:10:19
Speaker
Right. And like maybe she'd have pearls, you know, like shells, like yeah some more abalone. some of the little body sparkles or something. And so i agree that that it's just like a hard drop, like in the middle of the movie where you're like, whoa.
01:10:36
Speaker
I mean, message wise, it hits home. Yeah. But visually it's like. There are other ways that it could have happened yeah and felt a part of the world.
01:10:48
Speaker
Because it does feel like it walked off the set of Labyrinth. it It really does. Yeah, just from the ball scene. One thing i do like that I do think needs to just be mentioned is the pirate baseball uniforms. Okay, I love them. So cute. I mean, like, you know, not as much. i don't i don't know that there's as much to say about them. I just really enjoyed them. And I love that they kept their little sashes, even with their like baseball belts like on top. I just thought it was like very adorable.
01:11:21
Speaker
and also another little comment about something else. The armor with the Lost Boys. There's like bones on Rufio's. You know, like chest plates and stuff. But they're like such cartoony bones. Like little dinosaur bones. that love so much ah about that.
01:11:38
Speaker
And like there's just all these little tidbits with the pirates and with the Lost Boys that are just so great. Because you have those pirate uniforms. Like so Jack tells them the rules of baseball and then they make these little...
01:11:52
Speaker
their little outfits uniforms they like have a division of pirates sewing some stuff i i love them i did like i i didn't remember the lady pirates that were very coded like sex workers in this movie oh yeah i mean like in in pirate stuff it's like i mean even in uh pirates the caribbean the ride there's like yeah that's that coded experience either you're being um raided or you're working a working lady that carries over here yeah raided
01:12:30
Speaker
this so there are ladies in in pirate town there's a few you know and uh i feel like some are like shopkeepers too yeah So there's there's more society in Pirateville than we're we're actually being exposed to.
01:12:45
Speaker
It is a thriving community. it's Thriving. There's just like stuff. There's even kids there. There's a boy. when um and He's not one of the Lost Boys. He's just like, he is dressed like a little...
01:12:58
Speaker
Charles Dickens character. it's like when ah there's like a pirate Smith who's like hammering one of the hooks like nearby. There's just this kid ah just hanging out watching him. And I was like, hold up.
01:13:13
Speaker
There's children. Like I thought that part of it was that all the pirates were adults. Like I thought that was part of it. So that blew something wide open for me where I was like, wait a minute. Yeah.
01:13:26
Speaker
Are there neighborhoods? Are there subdivisions that we're not seeing outside of the lens of the camera? Like what? Are there schools? There's so many unanswered questions about pirate society. i really think that we need meaning need a a part two. also really, really loved Jack's little baby hook costume. Okay. Okay.
01:13:52
Speaker
Which also begs the question that if Maggie had like been on board from the beginning, the same way that Jack was, please tell me that you would have also dressed her up as a captain because like is that all it takes is just to be the apple in your new daddy's eye i think so she just that's why i love maggie she was she wasn't having any of this she was like this is nonsense yeah no i'm not gonna check out the weird sound in the basement why would you
01:14:23
Speaker
it just like love that she was like please pull yourself together and Jack meanwhile is like no I want to talk about baseball this guy's making a lot of points he's making a lot of really legitimate points about parenting this is crazy and I like that Jack is like and she stop talking about our mom loving us shh I'm only worried about the effects of my father on mental well-being. And do think that that is an interesting conversation on masculinity in our society that we could have and that we will have later based on some of the movies that we're going to have. This movie was brave enough to start having that conversation.
01:15:00
Speaker
Thank you, Hook. Never thought I'd say that. Thank you, Hook. Brought you a little bit around to the other side. You're welcome. The hard-hitting conversations.
01:15:13
Speaker
Toxic masculinity. um Yeah, no, that baby hook outfit is just like, oh my god. And he looked great on that kid. He looked amazing. So good.
01:15:27
Speaker
He has such a face for that wig. Like it was, it looked good. He should think about doing that. That also, I think set the standard for me for what I want Halloween costumes to be. Oh my God. Because I was like, if you can't be baby hook, stop it.
01:15:42
Speaker
Like you have to either be super cheesy or you have to be 100%. one hundred percent I'm wearing velvet tonight. Like, what is the, why, why does it matter to me? I don't know, but it really did.
01:15:55
Speaker
It was a, it was a sign. I think we know why it mattered to you. I mean, now, now we know hindsight 2020. twenty twenty You can only make sense of it when you look back. Isn't that what they say? so true. Thank you for landing that in this NPR podcast. Yeah.
01:16:15
Speaker
Oh my God. Okay. What else? What's going, what else? I mean, we basically spend all this time in Neverland and then Peter Rufio dies, RIP, and then um goes off to greater things and doing the voice of Zuko and Avatar, the last airbender and many other things.
01:16:36
Speaker
The Lost Boys basically are given a new pan where Peter his kids back. Yes, it is. And I think that like 80% of that is that actor, the little kid, and the other 20% is John Williams. Yes.
01:16:52
Speaker
the there this movie we can We can very scientifically break down the influence of the music, the children, and like each performance here and there. 100%. But like, and that's the, that's the part of the movie where I'm just a wreck.
01:17:07
Speaker
The moment Rufio dies to the end, I'm like, cause yeah, because Yeah, Peter gets his kids back. And he's like, Okay, you should get back to your mom, think a happy thought and go.
01:17:19
Speaker
And the kids say like, Okay, bye, guys. Strange kids that we've never met before. Okay, It's been fun. And it's like, I wish that Peter had spent five minutes and gone. These are basically your uncles. I grew up with these guys.
01:17:31
Speaker
i taught them everything they know. And being like, this is where I grew up, kids, but never spends any time saying that. And I'm like, oh I get it. They're true the traumatized. I needed i needed more it in the like denouement of the movie. I needed more of Robin Williams and those kids. i needed i needed a lot more.
01:17:57
Speaker
i guess I get that the goodbye had to be short and sweet. But it's also like I wanted there to be, yeah, a crossover between his two worlds. I wanted the crossover and not to just be in the Pirates Bay. Like I wanted that crossover for his kids to be – Like, this is where you came from so that they could also have this thing in common with their dad that is not just based on betrayal and basically trauma and, like, being kidnapped. Yeah. I felt unsatisfied in general by the reconciliation of Robin Williams with his kids. And like, try and like, I don't know. I just felt like everybody's, every other character in this movie was like dragging
01:18:48
Speaker
Peter kicking and screaming to a point of like emotional intelligence. Yes. And then at the end, there wasn't enough a acknowledgement of what everyone else did for him. It closes very quickly. And like, I think that the part that I understand is that.
01:19:07
Speaker
Sometimes with like children's relationships, things happen very quickly and very passionately, right? Like time is different when we're kids. yeah Like an hour felt crazy. Now as an adult, we we understand that hour when we're in a like a really traumatic situation or when we're at the DMV.
01:19:23
Speaker
Like, you know, there's – or like we're on the phone waiting to talk to health insurance. Like there's something very specific that puts us in that place now. But as a child, every hour felt so long. yeah Like a whole day felt like a lifetime – And you could do so much in one day as a kid that as an adult, you're like, this is heavy. Growing up is great.
01:19:46
Speaker
um There's just something. Never There's just something about this goodbye to the kids. Yeah. That feels – and, like, also his his reconnection to them that feels like childhood where, like, you could be best friends with somebody for two days and then never see them again and they will have been this massive memory in your life as an adult. Right, right.
01:20:12
Speaker
But you just hung out at day camp. Right. you know and like you knew so much about this kid or you didn't know anything about them but you knew that you had like these crazy adventures whatever it is like there's something about that that holds to me to the true to the trueness of Peter Pan and his like when we were talking about the cruelty of children and not like loving you the way that you want that love to be returned to whatever.
01:20:38
Speaker
yeah There are better, smarter people who talked about it. And I'm sure you can find those conversations, but this isn't a college class. It's a broadcast, but there's just something there that has that like true brevity of like, we've been through something and now I'm going home because my mom just rang the dinner bell, you know?
01:20:58
Speaker
And um so that like, as a kid, I understood that, time frame better and now I have that dissatisfaction because he has reconnected with who he was yeah but who he is is still that adult man right and he is this adult man who is showing them what they want to see which is the Peter that they imagined.
01:21:27
Speaker
But I do want him to connect, yeah, for his kids and for these, you know, boys, but mostly for his kids and for himself to show his kids that this is something that means something to him.
01:21:42
Speaker
yeah And that shaped him so that they can understand him a little bit more. And so that he can also flesh out to them that this was my home. And it's not just this thing that you saw. There's more to it.
01:21:54
Speaker
Right. And like when we go back and see Tootles, you'll be able to talk to Tootles. To like understand. Because like the kids spend the entire – like their experience of Neverland is being captive on that pirate ship the entire time. And the only story – That they've heard of Peter Pan is from the perspective of Peter Pan's nemesis.
01:22:15
Speaker
Right. Who is like... very bitter about peter pan but it's also like peter pan is selfish in this and this that and the other thing which is also true so it's like they're just kind of getting what they have experienced with their dad reaffirmed plus more negative stuff but they're not seeing the wonder of peter pan they're not seeing the magic and the generosity and the community just like flew around at the end and now and for like a second like hold like if they all flew around together just like Just like a little bit around Neverland. Cause like he doesn't even go back with them. I know. He's just like, see ya in a minute. I'm going to talk to these guys. Bye. It's like his friends at the bar. And it's like, no, these are, these are magical children who've been here for a century.
01:23:03
Speaker
I don't know. Some of them. Some them. Your kids probably could understand the Lost Boys more immediately. Yes. And then they would also understand you better.
01:23:15
Speaker
And then they'd be able to talk to Wendy and yeah, toodles and they'd be able to understand... So much of this world, like, my dad came from not Canada, but Neverland?
01:23:26
Speaker
Like, they'd just more reference, I think. My dad's a magical creature who's over 80 years old. Like, what?
01:23:37
Speaker
Huh? I know. And so, yeah, it's... weird That kind of also adds to the bittersweetness because, and this is again, something to like, what I love about it and, and makes me sad is that we don't get the time that we want.
01:23:54
Speaker
We get the time that we have. And so I think that Peter Pan is like, I gotta And so it's never going to be a perfect goodbye and it's never going to be a perfect ending.
01:24:06
Speaker
He realizes that kind of like what he can do is just show these kids what they want to see which is their legend, and then he can pass the legend on. And he can also let it go. Well, that is a very beautiful sentiment for the this like for the end of the movie. like I think that's a very beautiful way of looking at it. Yeah. You're welcome for being correct.
01:24:30
Speaker
wouldn't say correct. I would just say poetic and generous. It's not like... I just that's always what like I got from it and then you know they fly back. And because that's what you got from it then it's true. Yes.
01:24:47
Speaker
And I'm correct. That is true. That is true for you. My voice is the only voice that is correct. How dare you. The illusions of my childhood are being just eroded.
01:25:03
Speaker
cannot wait until these tables are turned. i don't know. they will be at some point oh boy they will be um but yeah I just like and then they they have this like yeah not quite satisfying for us transition and fly off but I do have to say the Peter flying away and then just that voice falling down which like could be done a little bit differently now audio I just like that always like makes me hi probably for so many reasons where it's like somebody doesn't feel like they have to look back and it's also just like this person is leaving this world and is never coming back yeah and it's like oh and like that always just i'm like but yeah and so they fly back to london and it's like everybody wakes up in their beds and
01:25:55
Speaker
Things are great. It's just like ah the light is super bright now. Everybody's happy. The children are back. Mom hugs the kids and is like sobbing. and And Peter looks at um Wendy and is like, hello, Wendy girl, or whatever it is that he says to her that he used to say when they were young.
01:26:13
Speaker
It's just weird. Yeah, super weird. It's super weird to have all your memories back and look at this woman that you have thought of as a grandmother for 40 years. Like, I feel like I'm watching the end of Interstellar that point.
01:26:28
Speaker
It's just like literally Interstellar. Yeah. And then we have like this different version of Smee who working. Yeah, that was cute. Yeah, shoveling snow or whatever it was that he was doing.
01:26:41
Speaker
Peter basically yeah takes his cell phone and he... Gets rid of it. And it's like a message to us that he's learned his lesson. Throwing your phone away is such a movie thing to do. I know. It's such thing. I've never seen someone do that in real life.
01:26:57
Speaker
I paid for that. Also, phones are way more expensive now than they used to That is true. it Like crazy way more expensive. Yeah, you don't just throw it in a license. This is a thing that not a lot of people remember. My birth mother got her first cell phone at McDonald's.
01:27:13
Speaker
Oh, this was in the era when they used to have VHS in their Happy Meals. That's how I got my copy of Adam's family on VHS was from McDonald's and it had the golden arches on the label. That is insane. Yeah. McDonald's when we were kids used to have crazy stuff that they used to give us in a meal.
01:27:34
Speaker
I don't remember. It cost us like $3. Yeah. so she got her first cell phone at McDonald's. And I just remember being like so cool and I was so mad about it and so jealous.
01:27:48
Speaker
And um I'm sure that that thing was just plastic. Oh, definitely. Yeah. And so like tossing that I could very much picture because it would just explode into pieces and just be like, well, there went that McDonald's Happy Meal so much.
01:28:03
Speaker
But yeah, like just tossing a phone does not solve your problems. You actually have to be like, ah don't call me. Yeah, there usually there's actually a conversation on the other side of that that has actually happen. Yes. But it is such a great movie thing to do. such a great movie thing, especially when it's like, a no and now I'm going kiss my wife and we're going to be happy forever. Right. I'm getting out of the limo in Paris and I do don't want to be the next Miranda Priestly. Yeah.
01:28:30
Speaker
oh So that's Hook. We did it We made it. Thank you so much for watching this movie, even though you were very much dreading it. i I would only do it for you.
01:28:43
Speaker
Thank you. Oh my goodness. Thank you. I'm my periwig. I'm just going toss my hair over my shoulder. Bluff up those little cat ears on Oh my God. yeah Well, I hope that other folks give the hook a try and i don't know.
01:29:03
Speaker
Let us know what you think. I mean, I think like based on what I've seen on the internet, 90% of them will think that it's the greatest movie they've ever seen. and the other 10% can come talk to me. Knock, knock on the other 10%.
01:29:18
Speaker
If you don't have anything nice to say, come sit next to me. Yeah.
01:29:24
Speaker
yes i don't who said that i don't remember who said that uh as far as i'm concerned it's you so whoever said it whoever coined it first thank you very much for giving that to my friend melinda because it's like like classic hollywood actress or something don't remember who it was like a betty davis or joan crawford kind of definitely yes i just don't remember who take a seat with me kick those feet up darling
01:29:48
Speaker
It was Captain Hook. It was Dustin Hoffman's Captain Hook. Actually, it really was. I do think that that's what he based his performance on. Golden Hollywood stars.
01:29:59
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Oh, my God. Well, this was yet another film in the canon of our youths, our childhood. Thank you guys so much. um I'm happy to announce that we don't have to end the podcast due to fighting.
01:30:15
Speaker
So we can continue next week and we are going to return to our double feature format. So we're going to be watching two movies. We're going to be watching Clueless.
01:30:27
Speaker
And Empire Records. It is such a great different view of the 90s from what we've watched so far. This is going to be, I'm really excited about this. We're going to really get into the the pop, pop culture of it all.
01:30:44
Speaker
yeah It's going to be thiss gonna be great. Yeah. So please join us. Tell your friends about our podcast. Spread the word. Follow us on Instagram.
01:30:55
Speaker
make a TikTok account so we don't have to.
01:31:02
Speaker
Or don't do any of that, but please listen to the episode if you're interested.
01:31:10
Speaker
oh Thank you so much for listening. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye.