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Neverland- Jimmy....is James
12 Plays19 hours ago
This time we're delving into the 2011 British miniseries Neverland. A sort of prequel to Peter Pan. It has some familiar faces, some unfamiliar faces, and some faces Melinda failed to recognize for a very long time.
Grab your mystical multi-dimensional transporting crystal orbs and let's go!
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1720619/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_5_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_neverlandM
Music: Cassette Deck by Basketcase
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Hot Set' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
Exploring 'Neverland' TV Miniseries
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome back to the show where Aida tells us exactly what she's thinking at every moment. And she would like us to talk about this ah TV movie phenomenon phenomenon that we just watched. Feminomenon. Feminomenomenomenon that is ah Peter Pan themed.
00:00:40
Speaker
And um it was Neverland from 2011, a TV miniseries, which was like an hour and a half, hour and 40 minutes. it was two episodes.
00:00:51
Speaker
Oh, Ariel, two hours and 45 minutes. I'm so sorry. i did not do the math right. it was just the same. It was long. long. Yeah, it was it was very long.
00:01:02
Speaker
um was very long. ah Yeah, so we we wanted to see a Peter Pan property in our fantasy world. ah season because why wouldn't you want to talk about a flying boy and a flying fairy and sea
Origins of Peter Pan Characters
00:01:18
Speaker
dust.
00:01:18
Speaker
um But so many of them are so, so heavily problematic that like we tried to find one that was not just being shit baggy.
00:01:29
Speaker
Total. Like the least bummer version. The least racist of them all. And yeah, I don't know. i mean, yeah, it's good it's one of those where I'm like, i don't know if it's for me to say if it was yeah successful in that.
00:01:45
Speaker
yeah but they they did some work. And so there is that, ah which we will talk about. But I would love to read very quickly the synopsis on IMDb of Neverland with the ah little tagline journey back to where it all began, because this is a prequel to the story we know. so here we go.
00:02:07
Speaker
Some places may look familiar, some characters may ring a bell, but in this world where time stands still, an adventure awaits like none you've ever seen before. Thanks a lot, Synopsis. Oh, my God. I mean, that's not the plot.
00:02:22
Speaker
That's not the plot at all. so Okay. Hold on. Wikipedia. um No, it goes straight into the plot. Okay.
00:02:35
Speaker
So let me try, as you suggested before pressing record, to explain the plot. ah This is a prequel to the Neverland that we know to the Peter Pan story that we know, which usually begins with Peter Pan Wendy Darling and her brothers being abducted.
00:02:52
Speaker
John and Michael say their names. John and oh Michael are their Christian names. ah And becoming, you know, like mother to the lost boys and all that. um And the the forever fight with Captain Hook ah that we don't know the origins of because we just know that Peter Pan and Captain Hook didn't like each other. Yeah.
00:03:16
Speaker
And one represents adulthood and one represents perma-childhood. Like, kind of not caring about things the way that children don't have to care about certain things. Or that we don't necessarily want children to have to care about things.
00:03:30
Speaker
Anywho, this is going to be wild. um Because words are hard for me today. It's so good for us um on this recording our words. Yeah. The project Record Our Words project. I love that description of podcast so much.
00:03:44
Speaker
So we this story begins in London, Victoriana, almost like a newsies, but in the UK.
Peter's Journey to Neverland
00:03:54
Speaker
It's McKensian. It's Oliver Twist. McKensian. Yeah.
00:03:58
Speaker
It is very Oliver Twist with this like gang of boys and this this man, Jimmy, who is their... Is his name Fagin? Is that what it is? that I think so. That was the name that I had in my head. i was Yeah, so he teaches them how to fence and how to sleight of hand, steal stuff, and ah they are... How to pick a pocket or two.
00:04:23
Speaker
Because this is an audio medium. Nobody else gets to be treated to the arts.
00:04:29
Speaker
You can't, I think, don't think I could make those sounds if my arms were like... You gotta do Broadway arms. Like, if your arms aren't swinging back and forth, you can't actually physically make that sound.
00:04:42
Speaker
You do have to do that, too.
00:04:46
Speaker
And that's acting for you. I'm sorry, please continue. Okay, so they are the Oliver Twisty Boys, little orphan boys, and... um They all are very tight knit, but there's, you know, drama between the boys and like leadership and and decisions and whatever.
00:05:05
Speaker
And there's a job that Jimmy, who's played by Reese Evans, says first he wants the boys to work and then he's like, never mind. we're not going to have you work it. I'll do it on my own.
00:05:18
Speaker
And Peter decides that he wants to take the boys and do the job anyway, because he wants to prove to Jimmy that he's like worthy of being his business partner. And Jimmy is like a paternal figure to Peter, most especially, and kind of like ah a gang boss to the rest of the boys.
00:05:34
Speaker
We find out that Jimmy took Peter out of a workhouse where his mother had passed away and like, you know, had known his mother and That's kind of all we get of that backstory.
00:05:47
Speaker
But he wears his father's watch, which I go, what? It's, uh, don't think about it too hard. Yeah. Don't hand wave. and a little little So, uh, Jimmy James has a connection to Peter's origins and,
00:06:05
Speaker
And like is raising him essentially as his own son and like loves him. and Does see Loves him in quotes. And like, I think that he wants him to be a mini him and anything else ah definitely alters how he feels.
00:06:22
Speaker
um i think he's mini him. loves him in the way that only like the only as much as a severe narcissist can love someone else Yeah, I think that he loves him as an extension of a woman that he was in love with who died.
00:06:35
Speaker
and And potentially a mirror of himself, maybe. um But only if he is the mirror of himself. And so, like, they...
00:06:47
Speaker
the same That is the first. the the job The job that they're hired to do, Jimmy Recy Fins was hired by Charles Dance, who is playing a man whose name I did not bother to listen to.
00:07:01
Speaker
who hires him to go steal a magical orb. Yeah. It's like, looks like a crystal ball that a psychic would have. And so when this crystal ball, ah the job is, is happening, Reese evens Jimmy discovers Peter, Peter and the boys. And he's like, what the hell are you doing here? And then a scuffle. And then the ball drops and all the boys and Jimmy disappear.
00:07:27
Speaker
And so Peter's... Actually, yeah except Peter. yeah except for Peter. And so Peter's left behind and he's like, what the... Because he thinks it's a bomb. He thinks that he killed everybody. Even though there's no damage, but it's like... The stuff surrounding them in the store goes with them. Like, it's like... It does look like a bomb went off. Like, there's like a hole of no more things. Yeah. And so it's just like...
00:07:53
Speaker
bomb. So he's, he's just like panicking and oh my God. And so he, he finds the guy who hired Jimmy and it's like, this is what happened. And, and like, ah, the guy's like, wait, you found it.
00:08:07
Speaker
ah So, uh, I honestly did not dedicate most of this story to my mind because the next thing I know uh, oh, we're in Neverland. Um, yeah. Like I think Peter, uh,
00:08:22
Speaker
He figures out that the the or striking the orb is what caused everyone to disappear.
Conflicts in Neverland
00:08:30
Speaker
And he doesn't want to be left behind because like, these are the only people that he knows that he cares about.
00:08:34
Speaker
So he deliberately strikes the orb and sends himself through into Neverland. He's the only one that does it by choice. Yeah. That actually understands the mechanism has figured it out. And so he gets to Neverland and this reminded me very much of the BBC Chronicles of um yeah but also it reminds because of well maybe not that but it did remind me of like uh the magician's nephew where there's this in between world which is i think when we first meet jadas where there's like these different pools and each pool leads to a different world that's kind of what this world looked like to me it doesn't actually but it's what it reminded me of when we've we're
00:09:14
Speaker
we're Neverland. There's Peter sitting by himself kind of like, oh and um so he's like trying to track down the lost boys and he's able to find them relatively quickly and like kind of meet other people and create his own presence in Neverland as he's trying to Yeah, like, we we discover that.
00:09:37
Speaker
Well, actually, before we met met those boys, we heard and so subscribe I know that this is actually just a recap podcast. We're not going to talk about what we thought about it. We're just going to tell you what happened.
00:09:49
Speaker
but is go have um But actually, before we we met the boys in London, we were on a pirate ship and they came in contact with the orb.
00:10:00
Speaker
And i believe it's Bonnie. She actually shot it with a gun. And the um the magnitude of that like strike on the orb swallowed their entire ship of pirates ah from the 1700s and sent them to Neverland.
00:10:19
Speaker
um And like once Peter shows up, it's like, ah the pirates are here. And then we also meet a tribe of Native American people that we don't I don't think we get told how they came in contact with an orb and ended up there. But they seem to be I think based on what they said, they came through in sometime in like the 1800s. Yeah.
00:10:44
Speaker
yeah So we did hear their chief. No. Was it the chief? One of the heads, one of the elders, who I believe is Kronka Kilcher's dad, that character, he explains that he threw orb.
00:11:03
Speaker
And that's why everyone... Okay, I missed that. Yeah, so so there was someone who explained that I did this thing, but we don't know how it came to them. Yeah. But we do know that because a few of the characters have a specific dream and we find out that everyone who's ever dropped the orb and entered Neverland that way, that specific person who is responsible for the action has a dream that connects them to like the origin story of the orb. Yeah.
00:11:29
Speaker
Yeah. But I would say in terms of like what actually happens in this is just so much back and forth between The boys, they are fighting.
00:11:41
Speaker
And it's like, um you know, Peter and the other Lost Boys spend a lot of time with the Kaa tribe. um But, like, they've been around long enough to know, like, the pirates are bad news. We stay away from the pirates. Like, they don't know...
00:11:57
Speaker
where we live and we like we want to keep it that way because they're bad they'll try to kill us like uh jimmy hooks up with bonnie literally and figuratively and um i don't know about you but like i truly didn't connect the dots that he was gonna become captain hook until it was know i truly was not i was like the second that they called him jimmy i was like jimmy james james hook we're there i didn't figure know I felt so dumb, but like ah when um when the he came through to Neverland with them, I was like, well, they're going to have to get rid of him because the Lost Boys don't have an adult man with them. That's not part of the story. Like what's going to happen to Jimmy?
00:12:42
Speaker
i like truly did not get it. um But my main takeaway from this entire miniseries is just, the erasure of powerful women leaders in our history. Yeah. Like
Comparing Peter Pan Adaptations
00:12:56
Speaker
Bonnie, like what happened? You know, what happened to Bonnie? She's the leader of the pirates for like 200 years. And like Jimmy comes in, ruins everything.
00:13:08
Speaker
yeah In a heart world. You just can't get ahead. just, okay. I had a, I, So this is where I go and you said it well, it's not necessarily for us to determine how good the representation here is um because this felt very like Moana-esque of like an amalgamation of Native uh, imagery and, um language where it's just like, you know, maybe the idea behind it is like, this is a, a tribe that disappeared. So we just don't recognize maybe their language, but they're connected, you know, that kind of thing.
00:13:49
Speaker
Cause there's a lot of design that's very, um, Southwest, no Northwest Pacific Northwest Yeah, the color, the the particular art style, the colors and the wood carving.
00:14:01
Speaker
ah the The main character from that group of people who is playing Tiger Lily, but her name is actually Aya, is Karanka Kilcher. And um I feel like what they did do was that they actually cast characters.
00:14:18
Speaker
um Who have a native ancestry and not just like, oh, you've got dark hair. Let's brown you up. Because that that is definitely something that has happened. there's It's crazy.
00:14:33
Speaker
The versions of Peter Pan are horrible. um like The one that I'm the most familiar with is the Disney animated one. And like, obviously, it's, you know, a cartoon, but like, it's awful. It's awful.
00:14:47
Speaker
And like that one I'm familiar with as well. But also the one that was live action from like the for s Is that the one Mae Martin? No, not me, Martin. Mary Martin.
00:14:59
Speaker
don't know when that's from. I would have thought like the 60s, but I honestly don't know. You know what? I'm going to let it out. Let's find out. We have the power to find that out. um But yeah. You are correct.
00:15:10
Speaker
It's 1960. ah nineteen sixty Okay. Yeah. So straight on the nose. Oh, so ah the oh
00:15:21
Speaker
oh So that one I grew up watching. And as a kid, ah was like, this doesn't feel right. This is egregious. yeah And it it is.
00:15:33
Speaker
And so with this, it's it's like there were There were attempts made, and then I can't say how successful any of those were. um But Aya is this like, she's like 80s.
00:15:47
Speaker
She's in her 80s, I think, because of how long they've been there. I think her dad is like in his early... hundreds, like he's like 130 something or. right this And um she's supposed to be like 81 or something. And so it's like for all these years, even if you are locked in the same dynamics in this like eternity where you never age, which they, they're the ones who explain like, we call it Neverland because we never age. change We never change.
00:16:16
Speaker
And so for this young woman who is in her eighties, regardless of if you're supposed to be stuck as like a teenager in that role you change and so it does not feel like that holds true here our all because like what i mean by that is like um interview with a vampire right you familiar anrice yeah so claudia who has turned into a vampire when she's like 12.
00:16:45
Speaker
twelve right And then she's stuck in a 12 year old body, but her brain keeps developing. She's not frozen there. She's an adult, an immortal adult in a child's body. And that's a tragedy.
00:16:57
Speaker
And that's what it feels like for me with like tiger Lily, because these are 13, 14 year is immediately and and she is immediately supposed to become like their confidant their peer she's 81 years old that is the question though like yeah and in neverland you know because how far does the not changing extend like peter's whole deal in the you know the original novel is that he is still a child yes though he's been there for forever so but by the logic of this don't find a lot
00:17:36
Speaker
It's not clear because by the logic of this ah TV extravaganza, Peter F's up, he, he dies. This is not the F up. He gets killed. And then he is brought back to life by Tinkery Bell's people. Right. Who are called essentially like the, the tree. Yeah. she I don't know why they're not called fairies, but yeah, but there's a different name for them in this world. And so they have like a very specific,
00:18:03
Speaker
Magical system and they bring him back to life and he is affected by the same kind of thing that they are. So he can fly now. And he, um he leads the pirates,
00:18:18
Speaker
He gets tricked by Jimmy into leading the pirates to where. Tricked like 50 times. I want to, I like, I did not have notes and I'm just like, we need to stop trusting narcissists like over and over and over again.
00:18:35
Speaker
Because I was just like, Peter. We need to listen to the stories of people who've come before us so that we stop repeating the mistakes of our predecessors, like searching for love in the worst places, but the people who prove over and over again that they don't love us and that what they are saying does not match their actions.
00:18:53
Speaker
And this is a perfect example of that because Jimmy is like, no, no, no, no. I just want to know where this ah special cave is that like brought you back to life.
00:19:03
Speaker
And constantly just like, well, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't sure before, but now I feel like I can blah, blah, blah, blah. does look Bonnie constantly too. And I'm just like, I think that this show would be like an hour shorter if we could just dispense with the constant hoodwinking The hoodwinking, that's sort of exactly the right word.
Costume Design Analysis
00:19:24
Speaker
We haven't even touched on costumes and we won't yet.
00:19:26
Speaker
ah but like why was it I was going to transition. but Yeah, we're going to do it in a second. But it's like Peter gets frozen for a minute in this version as the Peter who doesn't remember where he came from and is like frozen in this ha ha ha silly goofery by the tree people because he...
00:19:49
Speaker
F's up and lets the pirates know where this place is and they destroy it. And so they're like, well, you're going to be punished for this. And we're going to steal everything from every memory of everything you've ever loved, every person you've ever loved, everything about you, we're going to take from you and leave just these few things behind.
00:20:06
Speaker
And Tinkerbell tries to interrupt the process. It's not fully successful. And then the, the Lost Boys are able to get him back with music. The power of music. The power music. A recorder. little pan flute. A pan flute.
00:20:22
Speaker
and um I don't think it's actually pan flute. but you know, you pulled it and it was great. Topical. But, ah so we do see that version of Peter Pan, but in this one, he's,
00:20:34
Speaker
not that yet. So we're still seeing people like take in new information and adapt. And so it's like kind of frustrating to see Aya, AKA Tiger Lily, be very one dimensional and not see that character be different was a struggle.
00:20:55
Speaker
Thank you.
00:20:58
Speaker
there's like a scene in this like crazy like city made out of like tree branches and roots whatever where the pirates have like peter and they're like holding him by like sword point and they're going to kill him if if aa doesn't tell and i'm like thank you I was going to also get here. Yes, I'm sure. Like that moment run is so hollow because there is nothing that has happened between Peter and Aya to justify her.
00:21:30
Speaker
basically like signing a death warrant of everyone. know people Like she's, this is twilight logic. She's known this boy who by the way is 70 years younger she is, who is a boy.
00:21:47
Speaker
And um she's like, well I've known you for five minutes. Yeah. I guess to save your life, I'm going to just yeah Her community of people. Give up everybody?
00:21:58
Speaker
Could be, like, she believes if by doing that, that they are going to be systematically murdered by pirates. And she's like, but I can't let the boy, like, didn't make any sense at all. It was such a...
00:22:13
Speaker
Okay, we didn't try that hard. It's yeah lazy writing that gets assigned to female characters so much. And then there's the layers of it of like, this is a native, a young native woman from, like you said, the 1800s who experienced a lot
00:22:33
Speaker
She's not going to be making these decisions. No. And she 80 years of experience in Neverland and understanding. pirates trying kill people. yeah Yeah. She understands this environment. She understands the people that are there.
00:22:46
Speaker
She understands what's at stake. She understands what there is to lose. And the idea that she would sacrifice all of that for Peter did not make any sense at all. and it was very tough to get past that moment and continue. And that's like in the first, like first episode.
00:23:03
Speaker
And I've just been like shaking my head silently. I know. I know. Because it was very
Visual Effects and Realism
00:23:08
Speaker
frustrating. And yeah, but ah kind of a perfect point to start actually digging into costumes. Let's do it.
00:23:17
Speaker
So let's do it. I was not like super blown away. And I'm so sorry to the costume designer by saying this because it it felt like a TV movie. It felt like there was like a very specific budget and we're going to keep it tight. And like the logic of it, I totally get me not being blown away is not saying that it wasn't, there's no effort or anything. It's that there was like a very tight agreement on where certain characters are supposed to be from.
00:23:45
Speaker
And so, and then, They don't need to change. And there are a few characters who do change. And I do have some things to say. ah yeah oh But ah we start off very, very Oliver Twist. We are Dickensian England and it's all very.
00:24:03
Speaker
um It's very appropriate. it's It's very appropriate where it's very dark colors and it's very, you know, you're wearing suits. yeah for the adult men. Yeah, like the the kids are like nicely aged. They look like they don't have money. Everybody's got a unique... It's totally appropriate. And every person that is like in Neverland comes from a specific place in the real world other than the three forest people.
00:24:36
Speaker
But like it all has to be based on what we understand history to be and like yeah all of that. um And yeah I, I had a lot of understanding for that situation with the design, because sometimes you are working on a project and it just doesn't,
00:25:01
Speaker
ohll give you the space to do more than that. Sometimes that is just the job is just to do that and to do it nicely. so that is what I felt about this.
00:25:15
Speaker
Although I have a lot less familiarity with what would have been appropriate materials and textiles for the Kaa tribe.
00:25:27
Speaker
um There were a lot of like leather pieces and things that were very nice, but I don't have enough familiarity with the silhouette and materials that would have been accurate for that place. So I did have a couple questions about some of the choices there, but I don't know enough about it to critique it.
00:25:46
Speaker
Yeah. And so it, I think that it it just felt very,
00:25:55
Speaker
We're solving a problem. We're solving a problem and we're making sense. That's what we're doing. It wasn't like, whoa, you know, for for really any of the ah the costumes.
00:26:06
Speaker
And I think that it was like a prioritizing yeah budget and and where things can be applied because we did have some opportunities to kind of like blow our minds, right, with the tree people. Yeah. Yeah. but I had a lot of feelings about the scenic design choices of this and like the really, really heavy reliance on CGI was not my favorite decision. It was je very, very, okay, we are doing what we can with a TV movie.
00:26:36
Speaker
But it didn't feel like I don't... I don't personally get emotionally connected to CGI environments. I can appreciate their beauty when they're done well, yes but it doesn't draw me into the story. It puts a barrier between me and the story. And this felt very TV movie esque because it felt like, Oh, by Hallmark, you know, like it felt very, yeah.
00:27:04
Speaker
Okay. This is a small world and we just have enough of a budget to make this happen. And it needed to happen quickly. Yeah. But there were places where they filmed and real locations.
00:27:15
Speaker
And I liked that. Yeah. It just felt like they weren't putting out the money for actual scenic, like not actual scenic, physical scenic artists, like scenic artistry.
00:27:29
Speaker
At the time, like doing all of that on a computer is not cheap. No, it's not cheap. And it's also a lot of work. It really is. But it's like, usually when you when you have a certain budget, it feels like, as an ignoramus myself, it feels like you try to meet the two in the middle.
00:27:45
Speaker
Yeah. But when you have a certain budget and deadline, you're like, no, we're just gonna fix it all with this. And so it's like, ooh. And so it it does not feel like a world that that's like real in my imagination. Like it doesn't feel like, to me, Hook, not to you. Oh.
00:28:04
Speaker
Shout out to Hook. Shout out, shout out. Again, because it's in my head, because they were also, I think, TV releases, those BBC Chronicles of Narnia, right? That was like... Yeah. these And those had to have more tangible set work and like no green screen, maybe minimal for like certain distant, distant things, but it was a very different way of achieving it. And those do feel...
00:28:33
Speaker
weird and dreamy, but they feel like there's some solidity to it. And this doesn't quite have the balancing solidity. And so it's a weird experience because it feels like people are wearing clothes and because they're all divorced from the reality that they come from, there's not really a reality to unite them.
00:28:54
Speaker
That's very strong. And so it feels like people wearing costumes versus wearing clothing to me in this. And I don't know how to like fix that, you know, but it's like, I think that maybe, maybe so this is where you have a moment where like different parts of designs can support each other because it feels like there's not quite enough scenic elements to make it feel like these people in their different areas have like ah affected their world as much and like made a home.
00:29:27
Speaker
um ah like Sorry to keep bringing up Hook, but it is Peter Pan. like The pirate village, right? The pirate town. yeah They've made a port. They've built a port. They've been there for so long that they've built a port.
00:29:44
Speaker
they've they' They've got shops. They've got taverns. They've built an industry. They have an economy. They have an economy. They've built a place that reflects them so that they feel grounded there.
00:29:57
Speaker
That's their place. Yeah. And like the Lost Boys, which obviously that would not happen here. But we find out that the pirates have been there for like 200 years. Yeah. yeah And they've, they've stayed on the ship.
00:30:09
Speaker
Yeah. They've made them no inroads or effect anywhere. And then like the, the native people, the Kha, as they are called in this, um,
00:30:21
Speaker
they have not evolved their place of living either. Like as much, you know what i mean? Like they're, they're not intrusive the way like that the pirates would be. Yeah. They've done more than the pirates, but not a lot. But just like, because of the allowance that we have for scenic, it doesn't feel homey. It feels temporary.
00:30:46
Speaker
And so like, but they've been there years.
Pirate Costume Praise
00:30:49
Speaker
a hundred yeah a hundred years this thing of of floating because your costumes don't have the support on the ground to me and that's not what I'm saying is not fact it's just like how it was affecting me is that it felt like everybody was kind of floating a little bit well that's how I feel a lot like when there is so much art of like non-tangible yeah design happening is it does make you kind of disjointed yeah in a way that isn't easy to quantify but you just feel it like it's just a feeling it's like the same reason why like
00:31:33
Speaker
looking at like generative AI images makes me feel like physically sick because there's something so gross and unsettling about the imagery because I like you can just feel the like heartlessness of it in a deep place within you or at least I can but like I kind of feel the same way with a lot of stuff where it's like really heavy mocap or CGI or whatever, where it just is like, I mean, these are actors that are working so hard in like a room of like big green. like And these are also visual artists who are working so hard, but they're, but they're like, there's too much being put on them yeah when, when they are part of a team, but not being treated like they're part of a team. It's like,
00:32:21
Speaker
the team has been dissolved into just this one aspect of visual art. And then like a little bit given over to more. And I feel like everybody was working hard, but there wasn't um a married sense of the design.
00:32:35
Speaker
And so it it, if this had actually been like, Oh, we're not on a different planet. We're actually, we've been shot into the future in a video game, like that kind of thing. It would have made um, sense to like yeah my monkey brain. It's supposed to be essential essentially like a naturalistic world. like it's It's a world that these people have been transported to.
00:33:01
Speaker
There weren't people there before. It's just... like ocean and land and forest and cave. The people were there, I think. They're part of it, the world.
00:33:12
Speaker
They're part of the natural world. They're not trying the world and so they're not there they're a part of the natural world they're not trying to change it and dominate it the way that other people would kind of naturally be forced to in order to adapt even if it's like minimally um yeah it's just it's it's a TV movie yall it's an interesting like ah thing to have to grapple with it's just I mean it's a ambitious project to try to take on
00:33:52
Speaker
I think. um I think the the costumes that I found the most engaging were definitely the pirate costumes because yeah there was a lot of fun stuff going on with them.
00:34:05
Speaker
There was color, there was pattern, there was layering, there was fun. and it's like, I totally understand the limitations of like Dickensian England and not necessarily having that opportunity because you're, you're from a city, you're from London and You're not repping like the Caribbean and different parts of the world that you're sailing through um with different textiles and different brightnesses that you were stealing as opposed to being an orphan child.
00:34:33
Speaker
Also stealing, but like, are you having access to like floral scarves, you know? And we'd so sad. And speaking of hook, we do have...
00:34:44
Speaker
dearly departed Bob Hoskins as a pirate. And he is not dressed exactly like Smee from Hook, but it's not far off. He's wearing the same color shirt.
00:34:57
Speaker
yeah And the vest that he's got is the same world as as the one from Hook. like There's very much a nod to him as Smee in his costume. The shape of the hat is very...
00:35:12
Speaker
It's reminiscent, even though it's a very different item, but having him have a hat that's at a jaunty angle, same thing. And so there yeah there was one thing in the pirate world that really stuck out to me as me being like, I don't know about this item.
00:35:29
Speaker
And I'm wondering if there was anything that way for you or if we maybe keyed in on the same thing. Tell me. My thing that I was like, I don't know about this item is the first thing.
00:35:41
Speaker
so that we see Bonnie wearing when they get sent to Neverland. And it was beautiful and I really enjoyed it. But there was there was like some texture and some beading going on where I was like, I don't know about this in relationship to what everyone else is wearing Yeah.
00:36:04
Speaker
And she wore it for a good portion of the show, but she did change a couple times. So she wasn't wearing it the whole time, but she wore it for the majority of the first episode. And I was like, I want to know more about this coat.
00:36:17
Speaker
Yeah, the black one with like all the what the white, almost like barbed wire or thorny. Right. Leafy. Yeah. felt like there were sequins sewn on because it's got like a lot of embroidery and there's like beading and flowers involved. And I was like, I think there's like sequins or something involved here.
00:36:38
Speaker
But there was just something about them that looked really contemporary as opposed two That's also what was happening to me with um the Kaa and their Yes.
00:36:50
Speaker
Textiles. So we said it's very, very Pacific Northwest and a lot of like imagery hand painted onto costumes.
00:37:03
Speaker
But there was something about it that felt screen printed, even if it wasn't. It was like two Slick? Too slick.
00:37:14
Speaker
Where it's like, it makes sense. Okay. This is another thing for the logic of Neverland, right? Because it's like, are we getting dirty? Because like people are dying. You know, if they get killed, they die.
00:37:26
Speaker
Unless they're, you know, the special boy who gets brought back by by fairies. But like, it's too clean. It's too clean. And that's... And also...
00:37:40
Speaker
For me, I don't know. There's just like a lot of logic that where it throws questions for me. And I know that might not be how everybody approaches it, but you and I are very much into costumes. So of course we're going to approach it that way where we, we, I've always been told that, you know, you have a successful costume design when you don't notice it.
00:37:59
Speaker
Yeah. And that even includes things that you love, right? Is that it makes sense. It dissolves into the world. It makes the world make sense. It tells the story about the characters so that at a glance, you can know that this person, ah you know, is like yeah they're working in, in, in this industry because of how that thing has affected their clothing, et cetera. Right.
00:38:20
Speaker
and They're a messy eater because there's a mustard stain like on a shirt. Right. There's certain things like that. um But when something stands out, it's because it doesn't quite fit the world that
Cultural Representation Critique
00:38:35
Speaker
it's in.
00:38:35
Speaker
And this includes, and of course the car are not supposed to fit in with Neverland. Of course the pirates are not supposed to fit in with Neverland. The lost boys and Jimmy and his crew are not supposed to fit in with Neverland, but they are supposed to fit in with each other. exactly And so the car have been there for X amount of years.
00:38:53
Speaker
it feels like none of their costumes have any aging. And like, yeah, pirates are in the same things when we like, they're wearing the same clothes that we saw them in before they went to Neverland.
00:39:08
Speaker
Yes. And so it's like, I guess I can accept that Neverland, maybe things just don't get affected the same way. Cause like you don't change. So I would assume that these things don't change the same way.
00:39:20
Speaker
Okay. But There's just like, it's too slick. As you said, it's just something about it is too
00:39:33
Speaker
manufactured for me. And like, even when they're amongst each other and there was a thing that like stood out to me a lot, which is the lost boys who like, get dressed in these tunics that are given to them by the car.
00:39:50
Speaker
And those things feel almost like jerseys. Like they're not designed that way, but it's just like how the imagery is like emblazoned on there. There's just something about maybe the colors that were chosen for the paints that feel like loud. like i love but not I don't know. I don't know how to say what I'm saying. but there's like something that yeah like the The actual choice of of the colors did ring true to my... Yes.
00:40:24
Speaker
Like, i um I lived in Seattle for a few years. Yeah. And so I've some artwork in, like, museum and gallery settings that is from people of that place. And so, like, the colors yeah the ah and And the, like, the the lines and the imagery...
00:40:48
Speaker
looked in line with what I have seen, but I have not studied it. No. And i'm i'm I'm in full agreement with you because like that was there. What was missing, here's what it is. What was missing was accessories. What was missing was other textile adornment.
00:41:06
Speaker
So there's like fabric painting and fringe, and that's pretty much it. There's not woven. There's not other textile examples.
00:41:17
Speaker
And so that makes it feel hollow and flat. Yeah, I couldn't understand what the actual textile that some of those clothes were supposed to be.
00:41:29
Speaker
And i I was just like, I don't know what, is this supposed to be like a very, very thin, like treated suede? Like, I don't know what this material is meant to be.
00:41:41
Speaker
yeah and it's not that it needed to be. thinking about it. Yeah, I'm thinking about it a lot. And I'm thinking about it too, because there's not a lot of
00:41:51
Speaker
No matter how I say this, it's going to come off very rude. So I do apologize into the universe. But I feel that I liked where the textile paintings were headed because they are accurate to things that I have seen from that area of the world, right? And that indigenous community that is informing this design.
00:42:12
Speaker
But those indigenous communities... do so so much artwork, so many things, and so many things historically made out of ah nature around them.
00:42:27
Speaker
And so... to have it feel so one dimensional is what made it feel like a stereotype and not like a depth of research. Do you know what I mean? Like it felt, it felt very flat and like the pirates had more going for them than they did.
00:42:49
Speaker
And so it was like, as if the textile painting was supposed to carry ah bunch of information the way that the the digital artwork was supposed to carry so much information. And it's like there was just a lot not there.
00:43:03
Speaker
And it's like, I'm not asking for you to make a stereotype. I'm asking for you to give depth. And I feel like the depth was missing. And so that's what made it feel like the Lost Boys were wearing like sports jerseys. It's like this, like, you know, image emblazoned on their chest without, and then also having like a streak of paint on their face when they're heading to a fight with the pirates. And it's like, Oh my God, what, what are we doing? no.
00:43:29
Speaker
Oh, no Yeah, like I would love to know what the process was for like where these costumes for the Kaa people came from.
00:43:42
Speaker
Like yeah I would just I would appreciate understanding because it's definitely something that like I've struggled with as a designer is sometimes like the the project requires things that are just absolutely like outside of cultural understanding. And I feel very uncomfortable. I've been there.
00:44:07
Speaker
Leading that where I'm like, I don't think that this is for me to do when I don't have the time, money and resources do. become an expert on this. I don't have money or whatever to like hire someone who is an expert on this. puts...
00:44:27
Speaker
it puts It puts you as a designer in a really... a really tough position. tough position where you're like, there's it's kind of hard to find a way through yes this respectfully.
00:44:40
Speaker
And so for me, what I'm feeling is not based on the designer. What I'm feeling is based on the production because they put the designer in a position to try to, just like with the visual artists, in a position to like be unsupported.
Costume Designer's Challenges and Successes
00:44:54
Speaker
and carry a lot without the support that is pretty necessary to make something feel whole. And in this case, of course, like before them are so many different Peter Pan properties, right? That like really, really, really leaned on heavy stereotypes.
00:45:09
Speaker
And, like ignorant stereotypes. And in this one they have done research, but there's only so much that can be done with time and resources, as you said. And it's just like, there should have been, i think, because i I again, don't know what the the story of the production was, but I feel like there should have been
00:45:32
Speaker
ah some resources set aside for an indigenous artist from that area to at least be a consultant and, yeah you know, give some information on how to add depth and make this feel like a lived in people who have many cultural practices, one of which would be generating clothing.
00:45:50
Speaker
you know, and I didn't see anyone's name. Like I was trying to double check IMDB. I didn't see anyone's name listed in a context that would lead me to believe that there was someone here. We know obviously that credits are not always complete and that we don't know. But if that person did exist, I would want them to be credited. I would want them to be credited. i would want them to be paid for their time and their effort. And I want them and to be thanked. Like,
00:46:18
Speaker
Thank you for making this, you know, better and richer and supporting this person who otherwise would be, as I suspect in this production, just floating in the wind and trying to do the best that they can with what they can.
00:46:30
Speaker
um So yeah, I had some feelings about that. So like, you know, for a costumey, for a fantasy thing, which this very clearly is. Yeah. um There's, there's a lot of thought put into it. And of course, in some places i would have loved to see more and see, just see more and have it, you know, be more grounded in some places. um But I do think that,
00:47:01
Speaker
uh for the most part a lot of things did make sense and really like communicated you know these different factions of people ah coming from different places and with different backgrounds that was communicated um like the tree people i ah wish had a little bit more going for them i wish that there was a lot of like i had Yeah, I had trouble with the tree people because they're like fully like like computer manipulated images. like yeah
00:47:34
Speaker
ah It was an interesting choice to have an actress portraying Ginger Bell physically and have Keira Knightley portraying Ginger Bell's voice. yeah I was sort of like she couldn't they couldn't string her up on a thing and film her in a suit. Yeah, they couldn't just fly her in a green screen for a little while.
00:48:02
Speaker
I'm assuming they couldn't afford her. Yeah, they could just afford her voice. Or whatever. like But it was a very interesting choice, um especially because they like continued with this idea of like the forest...
00:48:18
Speaker
fairies people like didn't move their mouths when they were talking yeah just just mental mental voice stone cold staring you down it's crazy no expressions it was um yeah that and that made it hard to connect with tinkerbell in my opinion they also made it hard for me to connect with her character they in my head kind of reminded me of the um the statues that come to life in Metropolis, like with that design, because there was so much gray, there's supposed to be this like meteorite dust, which is like the pixie dust essentially.
00:48:55
Speaker
And it's like affected them. So there's this like silvery sheen on everything that they are, but it felt very like that Metropolis, which of course is black and white.
00:49:06
Speaker
So who knows what color they were actually painted in front of the campus, but that kind of like, Not sheen, but like kind of like a flat gray.
00:49:19
Speaker
there They're just like, there's they're magical creatures and they look like they're little cement, cement little bodies that can fly around. And so I was just like, that's an interesting choice.
00:49:30
Speaker
It's an interesting choice. um Because it does it does, my emotional response to a lot of the design of this is that it's very gray. Yeah.
00:49:42
Speaker
It was a very limited color palette for everyone. Like it was very, it was a lot of brown and gray for everybody. um The pirates had like the most yeah going on, most variety.
00:49:55
Speaker
But it was like ah very, very tight palette so that the pirates would stand out. Yeah. As like a motley crew. And so it was just like very with a lot of the colors. And I was hoping that these tree people would have a little bit more going for them.
00:50:13
Speaker
And was like, oh, okay. Yeah. um So it's it's hard to talk about like a bunch of specifics because it was not, we're also way older than the target audience.
00:50:26
Speaker
So it was like hard to kind of like watch this and be enwrapped. And I'm not going to lie. i was, was,
00:50:33
Speaker
Reveal yourself. I was working hours at work. I was taking my phone around the shop and like, just, you know, looking and then sewing and then sewing and then looking and then sewing and pausing and looking and sewing. And just like, you know, so I wasn't like enwrapped.
00:50:50
Speaker
And so that does affect my my opinion. But this was not the most...
00:50:59
Speaker
enticing fantasy that I've ever seen. And to me, that speaks less of the ability of the costume team and more of the production. I it a writing yeah issue as opposed to a costume issue for sure. Oh yeah.
00:51:19
Speaker
And so it was like, it was not, you know, and also like the limitations of the the budget and the the production itself affected the costuming because what's crazy, what we just found out is that last night ah my husband and I just watched a movie on Netflix and we had to pause the credits to try to pronounce the costume designer's name because it is an Irish Gaelic name.
00:51:42
Speaker
And it's, not something, it's a very long last name. And so it was like, how do you, how do you say it? And I've never seen her name before.
00:51:53
Speaker
No, never. And that's just my ignorance. But then today it turns out that she, she designed this. So it's like just such a short period of time to encounter her work twice.
00:52:04
Speaker
And, um, her name is Amer, me, Maldonna. Which is like really interesting, like.
00:52:15
Speaker
It's a beautiful name. It's a beautiful name. i should have recognized it in some way because one of the movies that she has designed that I've watched like seven times is Becoming Jane.
00:52:27
Speaker
I love that movie. And I was like, oh, I must have just never picked up her name from watching that movie. done work and she's done work that I fucking king adore because like she did the Banshees of Inish Aron.
00:52:43
Speaker
um And she did Foundation. and have you watched Foundation yet? No. Melinda, the costumes in this show are fantastic.
00:52:57
Speaker
And so like, this is, this is how I know it's not the costume designers language that isn't interacting with me or their, their style or their work, whatever it is.
00:53:09
Speaker
It's, it's the production limitations that is not connecting with me. And it's also my limitations as an audience member, because I'm not the target audience of Neverland, but like her work, uh, she did nine episodes in 2021.
00:53:25
Speaker
um gorgeous. Like these costumes are phenomenal. So I do recommend watching that show and knowing that she she's worked on it. This is pretty cool. And she did Little Women, ah TV miniseries in 2017. I haven't seen that one, but I've, yeah, I've heard about that one. She did The Fall, which is a great show, modern show, but she did Love and Friendship, which a lot of people have a lot of positive feelings about.
00:53:52
Speaker
but um seen is either I did see it and I was like, well, that's what it's like. I mean, I think that the, the through line of everything that we ever talk about on this show is like, you just don't get to this level by not being talented. That just doesn't happen. Yeah.
00:54:11
Speaker
um There are so many talented people in the world and there's not enough space at the top for all of the talented people, but you're not going to get there without being crazy talented. So, yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, I mean...
00:54:25
Speaker
Sometimes the requirement of the project and the scope of the project dictates what you can do. Absolutely. And this is a perfect example of that. And it it doesn't feel great to be like, I didn't really love it. But it's also like, not everything is made for all of us.
00:54:42
Speaker
Was this a successful costume design? Yes. It was. Of course it was. And we liked this with neither of us having seen it before. Neither of having seen it. And so totally coming in with first blush. Yeah.
00:54:54
Speaker
Yeah. And like, I mean, generally, i feel like our, you know, one of our goals is that we aren't coming in here to like trash anybody. We're not going to deliberately pick something that we don't think is good and then come in here and like say a bunch of crap about that work. Like that is not the goal of this show.
00:55:16
Speaker
um There's many other places on the Internet you can go if that's what the kind of content that you want. But this is not it. But some things are more going to grab us more than others.
00:55:28
Speaker
It's not to say it's bad. And this is like the the association I always make with fantasy movies is that they're going to be like super over the top costumes that there's going to be tons of budget tons of time allowed for it or.
00:55:41
Speaker
tons of like glitter or you know whatever. like that There's just going to be tons and tons and tons. And this goes to show that that is not always true because of the needs of the production. This is you know people being ripped out of earth and put on a different planet from different eras of time.
00:55:57
Speaker
And you only have so much to communicate with. So it's not going to be over the top because it's not being asked to be. And so just because was excited about talking about fantasy and like glitter and stuff. I was like, okay. this mom But ah it was really cool to find out that this designer is who she is. And that I am actually familiar with some of her work and knowing the breadth and the scope of somebody's oeuvre.
00:56:24
Speaker
Yeah. It's pretty cool.
Conclusion and Teaser for Next Topic
00:56:26
Speaker
Yeah, it's great. It's also humanizing because it's like, we we both have work that is like, yeah, it was a job and it wasn't- I've got plenty. Yeah. It was not the ultimate dream you know design that is like, this is the thing that is going to launch me into being known for this thing. It's like, no, that was a job that I got hired for and I did it and I did it well.
00:56:47
Speaker
Yeah. And your job is to tell the story. Your job is to not like, you can't make something be what it's not. Your job is to come in and tell the story that's in the, like in that script on that page, like with those people.
00:57:04
Speaker
So sometimes it's a big story. Sometimes it's not a big story. Yeah. Sometimes it just is what it is. And so Thank you, everybody who works on this. like Next time, let's have a cultural consultant. let Or like maybe they did and we don't know about it. like And if you did, credit them.
00:57:24
Speaker
Yeah. Set them up on IMDB. Yeah. Money. Well, thank you very much for, as always, for talking to me about this. Oh my god, you're so welcome. Thank you for talking to me. Thank you.
00:57:39
Speaker
but feel I really enjoy yelling into a microphone with you. It's very, very delightful. See, this is why I was like, this is why we need to make this show. Yeah.
00:57:50
Speaker
Contain the crazy. im with you. but put it right onto digital something. Oh, yeah. Forever. Forever. Forever.
00:58:04
Speaker
We've returned from Neverland. We've made it back to Earth. And we are going to come back next time ah by jumping into a different world, a different type of fantasy.
00:58:17
Speaker
Maybe the more... obvious thing that you associate with fantasy when you think about it. I don't know. um But we are going to be coming back and discussing the 2023 film Dungeons and Dragons.
00:58:32
Speaker
And to get you interested in listening to that one, the little blurb IMDb is a charming thief and a band of unlikely adventurers embark on an epic quest to retrieve a lost relic. like But things go dangerously awry when they run afoul of the wrong people.
00:58:54
Speaker
um bu bow get your Get your dice ready. just puts me in mind that you and i independently in our houses, are going to be holding a handful of D&D die just watching this movie going...
00:59:10
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I have, I know that we've both seen this movie before. i have never played Dungeons and Dragons. that i and Neither Neither I. um But what I liked about this movie is that it didn't make me feel bad for that. Like the movie is very accessible, fun time for ah unfamiliar players, such as.
00:59:36
Speaker
Yeah. And from the little I know from having watched campaigns online, it feels like it captures the individual kind like archetypes of characters.
00:59:48
Speaker
well and like what a campaign can be like well where it is not like lord the rings valiance it's like there can be valiance but it's also like oh this is nuts like here's a little plot that's happening just because we can do it it didn't need to happen but we just did it anyway like that's very fun and um this is a world that feels very rich, which is kind of nice So looking forward to it. Looking forward to talking about it.
01:00:21
Speaker
Yay. Well, all right. Bye.