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Labyrinth- Puppet Costume Fittings
20 Plays6 days ago
Dance, magic dance! Jump, magic jump! That's right, it's time for Labyrinth. Do you have what it takes to solve it? Are you as emotionally fraught as a 14-year-old to end up there in the first place?
We're talking all things glitter and tight pants. But the real fascination is the people that made the costumes for all the puppets in this movie. True mastery and we love them for it.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091369/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_labyrinth
Documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBHhSnpAe-c
Interview with Ellis Flyte: https://podcastingthemsoftly.com/2017/08/17/weaving-with-magic-an-interview-with-ellis-flyte-by-kent-hill/
Dark Crystal fashion line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTEbdKYDAIM
More behind the scenes: https://www.slashfilm.com/897621/there-was-a-method-to-the-madness-in-david-bowies-labyrinth-costume/
Music: Cassette Deck by Basketcase
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Hot Set' and Episode Topic
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to a new episode with us, your friends, costume nerds and professionals. ah This episode, we are talking about 1986's Labyrinth by the Jim Henson Company, starring David Bowie, Jennifer Connelly and Toby Froud as the babe. Toby!
00:00:41
Speaker
yeah Toby, Toby, Toby, who really like did a lot of crying. Phil came out of his studio and was like, man, there's way more crying baby in this than I remember. Sorry. There's a lot of crying
Synopsis of 'Labyrinth'
00:00:53
Speaker
baby in this. So much crying baby.
00:00:56
Speaker
in case you have not seen this movie, um quick synopsis by IMDb. Teenage Sarah journeys through a maze to save her baby brother from the Goblin King. There you go.
00:01:07
Speaker
Yeah. Cut drag. Never mind the fact that ah it's her fault. Never mind the fact that this rewired some people's brains into not looking at inappropriate relationships and going like ah the villain morally gray. David Bowie. um And also never minding the fact that ah there are bajillion puppets in this. Bajillion gazillion puppets. This is not an empty maze. This is a very populated maze with so many puppets. And so many of them have costumes.
Costume Designers of 'Labyrinth'
00:01:45
Speaker
And that's a delightful. A delightful costume.
00:01:50
Speaker
So Brian Froud was one of the designers um and he is actually listed as the costume designer alongside two other people. yeah um And one of them I really can't wait to talk about. But um Ellis Flight and swear I swear to God, I wrote it down in my notes. Ellis Flight, whose only credit on IMDb is this. Yeah. And then she also has a credit under the name Ellis Duncan for The Dark Crystal, where she was an associate costume designer for The Gelflings and The Podlings.
00:02:19
Speaker
um And the third costume designer listed is Polly Smith, who was a costume designer for The Creature Shop. And she also does that. Shout out. Yeah. Big shout out. Beautiful work. Beautiful work.
00:02:31
Speaker
I... Okay. This movie came out a year before we were born. yeah So it is a part of the movies that are like very, very big in our upbringing. Some of ours. Some of our upbringing. um When did you first watch this? Okay, I think that I first watched this movie in like 2018 or 2019. I had never seen it. It was one of those movies that was like ships in the night. Like I've just never seen Labyrinth, but i certainly knew what it was by reputation. Yeah, i mean, it's like you hear about it if you haven't watched it.
00:03:13
Speaker
There's definitely like referential stuff that you... Dance magic dance. Yeah, I mean, I knew about like the David Bowie of it all. um I knew that it was a you know puppet explosion everywhere, but I actually did not know anything about the plot of the movie. Okay, okay.
00:03:36
Speaker
Real quick jump in. I saw this probably when I was
Personal Experiences and Fantasy Elements
00:03:39
Speaker
like, again, magical age of 10 or 11 when I saw everything on TV at my grandma's house. um I would love your thoughts on the plot.
00:03:48
Speaker
um You know, it's actually like, I feel like it's a pretty, like the actual plot points of the movie, pretty straightforward. um i feel like it's pretty sort of standard fantasy, like a protagonist does something that they don't fully understand and has to like,
00:04:11
Speaker
go on the hero's journey to like right the wrong and um rescue the friends we make along the way as yeah yeah i mean there's a bit like i feel like any of this type of movie is a little bit you know wizard of oz in the sort of like i'm in this unknown place not that they not that wizard of oz invented that style but It's recognizable. But yeah, it's like I'm in an unknown place. I don't know what's going on. I'm going to make friends with the people that do know what's going on so they can help me get through all of this. And at the end, look at all the new friends that I have.
00:04:51
Speaker
And it would be like Wizard of Oz, though, if the wizard was, i don't know, contact juggling very intensely with a lot of eye contact and singing about like, you should love me. Yeah. And a lot of hair and a lot of eye makeup. A lot of cod pieces. Uh-huh.
00:05:06
Speaker
um I did see an interesting ah quote from Mr. Froud where he talked about codpiece of it all and the sort of inspiration that it was taking from like male ballet costumes. And I was like, yes, 100% get the reference. By the way, a labyrinth
Exploring 'Labyrinth' in Different Mediums
00:05:27
Speaker
ballet. I'd be very into seeing that. Yeah, where is on that?
00:05:31
Speaker
Does that exist? We need to find that if that doesn't exist. But I'm sure we'll get to it later. But I also did feel like there was one costume in particular that was kind of giving me Wizard of Oz feeling.
00:05:44
Speaker
um But I'm sure that we'll get to that when we get a little bit more into the movie. So Wizard of Oz. Can't wait to see that visual reference because I feel like I'm I'm.
00:05:57
Speaker
very programmed with how I respond to this movie because I like go back. I think this is the first time that I've seen this in 10 years. Okay. Maybe a little bit more. um Maybe that's not true because maybe I put it on like while I was working a while back, but this is the first time that I've watched it with focus. Yeah.
00:06:18
Speaker
Which I'm actually going to discredit myself on in a second because – ah Because I found out that there's a documentary about the making of this. It's about 56 minutes long. It's on YouTube and I have the link so I can send you the link if you want to include it or mention. um But I like fast forwarded through the documentary while the movie was playing. It's like, well, there's not a lot of costume change happening at this moment. did you dooo So the documentary is pretty great. And I would like to share a quick quote before we even get into any of the costumes. yeah jim They were filming stuff behind the scenes like while they were making it. And because the Henson Company is all about technical and construction, it's really interesting for folks like you and me because it is all about the puppeteering in the building and
00:07:05
Speaker
There is mention of the costumes again, because I was fast forwarding. I didn't see Ellis um flight or Patty. Polly. Polly. Thank you. Edit. Polly Smith. um At least I don't think I did. i i did see Brian Froud talking about some of the costumes really quick.
00:07:25
Speaker
So I'm not really sure what the positioning was exactly because it sounds like Brian Froud was like a concept designer and then yeah like did costume designs for specific things. And then Ellis Flight did costume designs for specific things. I also found an interview where someone it's like, I'll send you the link for that as well, but it's like podcasting them softly.com, which I don't know anything about. oh But this person, it sounds like they emailed Ella's flight and just sent a couple questions and then she answered those questions. Wow. And so from her description, um okay.
00:08:06
Speaker
man Tell us about the question. Tell us your, tell us about your, I can read sweet Christ. Tell us about your experience on the production of Labyrinth. Sarah's masquerade dress and Labyrinth. Indeed, all the costumes you did were based on concepts created by you along with Brian Froud.
00:08:22
Speaker
And Ellis says, labyrinth was considerably later because she was also talking about the dark crystal which i really have something to tell you about that i'm very excited about labyrinth was considerly later and a joy to be chosen for the position yes it is a jim henson film and once again the conceptual designer was brian frowud he brought to me many sketches of costumes from which my job would be to create and realize the ideas and also introduce new detail or interpretation My first responsibility would be to David Bowie and to Jennifer Connelly and then to the surreal costume ball.
00:08:55
Speaker
It has to be said that I employed a large team of people from pattern cutters and sewing technicians, screen print and dye specialists, special effect creators, jewelry designers, makeup and hairstylists
Artistic Contributions of the Frouds
00:09:07
Speaker
amongst others. And it is due to their continued hard work, originality and independent skills that we came to the finished product. Very sweet. Very diplomatic. Love that. But the really cool important stuff is that she names like all these different team members, but that she's also saying that her main assignments were David Bowie, Jennifer Connelly, and then the costume ball. So Polly Smith, creatures, and then Brian Froud seems was like the overarching vision. Yeah. Yeah, that's so nice to have someone break it down because I was wondering, like, obviously on IMDb, like it credits Polly with the creature. So you're like, okay, I get that. But then when you have two designers, and a lot of characters, you're like, well, what does that mean? Who did what? Like, what what was your responsibility here? So it's really nice that she like broke it down so clearly. It's so nice because it's also like,
00:09:57
Speaker
Brian Froud, do you know much about him and Wendy Froud? I don't. So Brian, Brian Froud is an illust. Well, ah yeah, an illustrator. Cause he's a concept designer.
00:10:09
Speaker
um i had a book by him and I think maybe Alan as well, but it's a book called fairies and it's like an illustrated compendium of different kinds of fairies. And so he and his wife, Wendy Froud, who met working at Jim Henson They're both public – I can't talk today. Puppet fabricators, designers, conceptual artists, all these things.
00:10:33
Speaker
And they are like kind of like the heart of the dark crystal, i feel. Like there are so many people who go into it. But the style of those puppets is is very frowned and like the style of their fairies. And that translates heavily here because this came out in 86. Dark Crystal was 82. And so Brian Froud, I don't know about Wendy, um but he, because I didn't look, but he worked on the original and then came back for the sequel, Dark Crystal. So like he's just a major...
00:11:05
Speaker
through line of like Henson visual arts. And he and Wendy Froud are kind of like Enya to me where they like made so much money that they bought like an estate in the UK and then they just like make their art and their magic and just live their lives and they don't have to worry about anything or anybody.
00:11:24
Speaker
and like and i say this amazing and you bought a castle and just lives there with her cats which is just like yeah good good for you like i'm good i'm great thanks bye so they would every once in a while open up for like workshops and the last thing i can find from brian froud like posting anything online anywhere is from like 2019 so it seems like they just don't even need the internet very much which is God bless. Wish I could say the same. Yeah. But it's like Brian Froud has a very, very specific art style and and concept design, like vision style. And I feel like Ellis Flight is like really, and Polly Smith, they're both really perfectly paired to be making things alongside.
00:12:08
Speaker
um Because for the Dark Crystal, I didn't know this, but apparently after the movie, they came out with a fashion line. Oh. Ellis Flight was a designer for that.
00:12:21
Speaker
Cool. So according to this, and I also found a video on YouTube, which I will also send you the link for, which is a video about this fashion line. Cool.
00:12:31
Speaker
Ellis Flight said that ah following the release of Dark Crystal, six of us were asked to design the Dark Crystal fashion collection of gowns based on the movie characters, which turned into a whole new and exciting project.
00:12:44
Speaker
Like, what? So... this is just This is like a lot of gobbledygook for me to say. Henson Company and Jim Henson had such a chokehold like Disney, but I feel more personally inspiring to me because it was so tactile and so, so intricate. Yeah.
00:13:10
Speaker
for so long like the muppets the puppeteering from the henson company and like all the muppets had costumes so all of the costuming and all of the design from like the height of henson has had such a massive imprint on my brain yeah like this one labyrinth is such a a fun thing to watch kind of realizing that now from this yeah perspective I think for me,
00:13:38
Speaker
the um the art style of like the Dark Crystal and Labyrinth and some of the stuff more in that vein, when I was a kid, i found it to be like a little too like weird and creepy. Yeah. I mean, I don't think I've ever watched the Dark Crystal fully through. Like that one wasn't really a big thing for me because it was very creepy. I think there's a lot of, there's like a ah a level of like of pleasure of making things that are like a little grotesque and like weird and gangly and like, ah you know, a little mangy looking and stuff in these movies that I'm like, as a kid, I was like, I'll take the Muppets. Like that was more interesting to me because I was like, that stuff's a little creepy. And I wasn't into the sort of like creepy crawly stuff yeah as a kid. That just wasn't for me. I was like,
Analyzing Sarah's Costumes
00:14:32
Speaker
and I'm gonna go talk to Fozzie Bear instead. I think I straddled the line because like this one begins with Sarah played by Jennifer Connelly when she's you said like 16 17 maybe i mean her character's 14 yeah so she's a baby yeah she's little she's wearing a medieval princess dress yeah and acting by herself in a park and I was like okay this girl and I are speaking the same language because like where did you get your hands on that dress Sarah
00:15:01
Speaker
That's real cool. Did you notice that the medieval dress had like a full on like princess seams through the bodice? So I was like, it was such a great detail because that is not no historically accurate, which like, I think it's a great ah way of like, kind of taking that ah like the medieval thing and being like, but she is a girl in the 80s. Like, she's not a medieval girl. Everything about her was so well connected to like referencing historical thing, but being perfectly 80s. Because after she runs home in the rain in this dress, like hauling the skirts of it like up around her chest. I love that she had jeans underneath the medieval dress. Jeans and like loafers. Yeah. It's like, girl, yes.
00:15:50
Speaker
She's like, I need to be able to function while I'm wearing this princess dress in public. she's like, I'm a princess, but I'm not crazy. Yeah, I'm not nuts. This is 1985 at the time of filming, present presumably. Right. But she changes from that to the outfit, the costume that she wears for the rest of the film, which is a white bishop sleeve shirt with the collar popped or starched, but it's it's always up. Like throughout all of her trials and tribulations, it's always up. Yeah. Which is like, good for you, collar, carrying the weight of this movie. Yeah. She also has a vest that's like embroidered with vines. That's very modern, but also calls to mind like an older, more formal embroidered waistcoat, like a men's waistcoat. Yeah. It's good. The, the fabric is like, i I believe in my heart that that fabric was for sale in every color um at that time. And like everybody that was doing
00:16:46
Speaker
like historical costuming for like the 18th century bought that fabric at some point. 100%. Cause it was like, it just, it's so like evokes something without being too intricate at all. And all of that is over jeans. She has like a leather belt purse that you kind of catch flashes of from underneath the shirt. And then a pair of light Brown loafers over white socks. Yeah. And I was just like, this is great. Like, she looks like a princess who put on pants to go on a journey, but without having high boots or leather pants or like any of these things that usually take us straight to like medieval. Right.
00:17:27
Speaker
Very 80s. Everything about her is It's giving um Rosalind from As You Like It. She's going into the forest. She's abandoning gender and going into the forest. And don't we all wish that we could? But also, i just like love the practicality of her costume because she constantly has to be like running through things and hopping over puppets. Yeah. You know, struggling. And so if i love that she's in these comfortable jeans and just like shoes that we've seen her in. And she's just wearing something comfortable for her. But it also shows how theatrical she is. In the first scene, she's like screaming at this baby.
00:18:11
Speaker
Which I was like – Like a tiny Mr. Smee. I get it. film I understand. Yeah. There is, in your like very comfortable like upper middle class lifestyle, it is really hard to be the de facto like babysitter for your terrible... like Because is that her dad's second wife? like That's not her mother. That is yeah actually her stepmom.
00:18:39
Speaker
But I know Sarah's costume is such an interesting... thing in this movie because like you said, like it has to do everything. She is wearing it like 98% of this movie. So you have to be really, really deliberate about what she's going to wear. And it's also crazy because so much of it is light. But yeah from what I remember by the end of the movie, she still looks pretty pristine. Like she's she's going through marshes, she's going through dust, but like her shoes aren't like horrendous at the end of it. She's not Atreyu crawling through like the swamps of sadness or whatever they are in the never-ending story. like She's not... ever covered in mud to that like extent. She's just like pretty untouched, which is amazing for the choices that they made because it just like kind of stays like this iconic, but flexible, but iconic yeah outfit the whole way through. I believe that that her costume is on display at the Motion Picture Museum. Yeah.
00:19:43
Speaker
um I saw a Reddit post that implied that it is a permanent part of a Jim Henson exhibit at that museum. So it had her costume and it had um one of David Bowie's costumes from the movie on display. So the person who posted it said that it was part of the permanent collection. So it's possible that someday we could go see it. And like, I would love to see any of David Bowie's costumes too, which we will absolutely spend some time talking about in a moment. Did you have any favorite, like favorites that screamed out to you in this?
00:20:19
Speaker
I mean, for for me, the costume that Sarah wears at the Masquerade Ball will be my favorite forever. um That's the one that I feel like had some reference to the Wizard of Oz, specifically Glinda. Yeah.
00:20:37
Speaker
It was feeling kind of Glinda-y, which I'm sure there's many things that they were like pulling references from. it's not It's not like cut and paste, but there's just something about the volume and the like particular construction of the sleeves where it's like that tight lower sleeve and the huge tulle sleeves with like the cut of the neckline of the bodice that was just kind of...
00:21:03
Speaker
um Glinda-ish. And the shiny fabric yeah that does also evoke iridescent bubble too. yeah So like shell or bubble. like it right It's a magical gown. And you can tell like they at the beginning of the movie when she's in her bedroom, they're kind of like panning around all of her stuff and you can see a lot of like books and posters and things that are clearly stuff that was referenced for like the visual style of the movie um and i think there is like a maybe like a snow globe or something with like glinda in it amongst Yeah, and there was a hardcover Wizard of Oz too. Yes. A pan over her desk. So big thing in her life. She's so melodramatic, this character. Like everything is just like... ah
00:21:57
Speaker
my life. She like kind of calms down by it, which is like, thank But also, mean, there's, there's nothing more heartbreaking than being 14. have to say, it is a, it is crucible that many of us do survive.
00:22:18
Speaker
And like, it is a pain in us. Yeah. sure and This is a very heightened one. um I also just have to give like a little shout out to like Toby's costume that he wears throughout the movie because he's in this like red and white striped little onesie for the whole movie.
00:22:38
Speaker
um But I loved the moment at the beginning before he gets taken where um you know Sarah's like delivering some tragic monologue and she pulls on his little like baby hat it's like a little like it's the same fabric and she like pulls it over her like giant hair and um I was sort of like oh we're a pirate and then I was like oh it's part of Toby's outfit got it um it was so yeah because it really did tie in her whole a costume into being pirate pirate child so It really did. And she's delivering a monologue in a mirror, like adjusting it on her head. And I was like, okay, calm down.
00:23:21
Speaker
She's like the worst drama kid that everyone is tired of. She's such a ridiculous character, but totally a teenager. Absolutely. She did a great job. We've known folks did a great job. yeah Yeah. Do you have a favorite costume from the movie?
00:23:40
Speaker
I do. And I think it has to be like specifically speaking, because I can't even think about the rest of the items that he's wearing at the moment. But it's it's David Bowie's Jareth from The Ball because of the finishing on that jacket is so...
00:23:58
Speaker
It catches the light. And this is also, a spoiler alert, another totally covered in glitter movie. it's like Oh, my God. it covered and it's like It's not quite legend. But it is there's so much glitter that attracts the light for the camera.
00:24:13
Speaker
And so he has, like I don't even know what's embroidered on there, but I would love to see it in person. Because like there are so many things. finishing details in this movie that are just freaking stunning. And like the second, I have a second favorite, which is Hoggle's little vest. I love his vest. The little leather vest. It has a leather sculpted face on the back. And I'm just like, what are we talking about?
00:24:40
Speaker
What are we doing? There's a lot of sculpted faces in this movie. Yeah. Yeah. But back to your comment about it being very glittery.
Production Overlap with 'Legend' and Costume Details
00:24:52
Speaker
Did you read that it was filmed on the same, like in the same studio as Legend at the same time? Okay, hold up. No, I did not.
00:25:02
Speaker
So this means, hold on, I would love it if they shared a budget. on glitter or like legend was like we need to get rid of some of this shit because they had to build something in the parking lot like they had to build part of the forest because this is the studio that burnt this might be the studio that burnt down I don't remember but like something happened to the studio Yeah. um And like, it would be great if people are just walking by going like, what you building? We're building a forest. That's a lot of glitter. Yes, it is. We need a lot of glitter. Yeah. glitter yeah okay
00:25:35
Speaker
This is very intense. And it's like, this is such a specific moment of the 80s that is so 80s to me. And now I know it's because of these two movies side by side. like yeah just kind Like whose job was it to have a bag or a like a lawn, a leaf blower? Yeah. Glitter. Like, What was that application process? It had to be massive. And like everybody put on protective gear because this will cut your eyeballs. Oh my god the God, the goggles, the goggles.
00:26:10
Speaker
I read that that Brian Henson, the son of Jim Henson, he he met Mia Sarah because they were filming like next door to each other basically. And like several years later, they got married.
00:26:25
Speaker
okay he was also married to Ellis Flight. Yeah, well, i mean, i don't know what to say about that. I don't have timelines on these. I'm just saying. I'm just reporting information. i would just saying this is amazing that there's more than one.
00:26:42
Speaker
Brian Henson married somebody. of the movie. I'm not trying to start a a celebrity gossip podcast, but...
00:26:56
Speaker
Oh my goodness. um Yeah. I guess it was just that magical. Everybody just making beautiful stuff. It was the glitter. yeah It was the glitter. Just connected everybody.
00:27:07
Speaker
But yeah, like most of David Bowie's costumes as Jareth are a little bit darker or more earthy, I think. And so the one from the dance,
00:27:21
Speaker
Hi, Ida. Thank you for announcing that you were going to the other part of the house. Goodbye. um It's so, so shiny that it like immediately pulls in my little birdie eyes. like I just can't. then like That whole ball scene has a lot to do with...
00:27:40
Speaker
like they're pretty grounded background costumes that have like venetian inspiration right and so it's like probably rentals from like historical departments gotta be but there are pieces of them that then like are elevated to be in this world and jareth has like leather going on in other scenes but this i think is the only one that has like a high like embroidery it's like or yeah like and like a lot of yeah a lot of sequining going on like sequins sewn down and like there is um there's something so great about that scene because it is like the moment in a lot of movies where like
00:28:32
Speaker
the protagonist is being like tempted into something that they should not do, but they're, you know, being like mesmerized or like tricked or whatever. So there has to be this like little tinge of sinister,
00:28:48
Speaker
In the visuals of the costumes and this like there has to be something that just makes you like a little bit uneasy and a little bit like run girl like run like there has to be something in there and i couldn't ever quite like I mean.
00:29:06
Speaker
I don't know what it is in that scene. Maybe it's the masks that are just like a little creepy. Everything about it is creepy because it feels like everything is like pushing in and it feels like the angles start to get weird. Like it starts to feel like a nightmare pretty fast. Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:23
Speaker
It's very effective. Yeah. But to have to do it with costumes, I always appreciate because there's like a really fine line where it's like beautiful and like enticing, but like something is unsettling about it. And um I really, really loved the hair I don't even know what to call it, like adornments that Sarah has in that scene because they're so strange. They're so strange. And like the the shaping of her hair, wig or otherwise, is – must be wig. It's so pushed back and so voluminous. And then these like –
00:30:05
Speaker
It's like wire working, right? Like it must be, but it's like really, really stunning. Like, yeah, it's beautiful, but it's like art nouveau, like buying, like, yeah.
00:30:18
Speaker
Yeah. the This is another thing where it's like it's it's impossible to talk about each and every costume. I know. There's too much. Because there's so much. But like the ball scene, another thing that like makes it so – hi, Ida. Thank you. Makes it so uneasy is it's another place where there are so many faces. Yeah.
00:30:37
Speaker
um When we sat down to watch the movie, um because I watched it last night with Jonathan and, you know, we obviously we've both seen it before, but he was like, there's not that many costumes in this movie. It's like mostly a lot of puppets. And um we're like in the beginning of the movie and she like first goes into the labyrinth and like the first like puppet that she encounters is like the tiny little like worm, but he's got like a little red, like knitted scarf around his nose. And I was like, see, even the puppets have costumes. Like, that Yeah, the puppets have crazy costumes because there was a department that was for – it was an armorer, and most of these puppets have armor. And, like, some of the puppets have armor that is, like, different colors, which is pretty great. Some of them have, like –
00:31:23
Speaker
there each piece of armor is different i'm looking at one of the imdb pictures it's like number 33 of 226 and like each puppet that is visible it's like one two three four five six seven eight nine puppets each one has completely different armor every helmet is different and like there's so many details for each thing and like they all have to be pretty functional because like they have to move they really do And like, i think Jared even has some sort of like a breastplate. He does. Yeah.
00:31:59
Speaker
Yeah. And like I'm one of his looks when I say that he has shine in the ball scene, he has this like incredible cloak with this like crazy high collar that also has shine to it, but it's just different and it's lower. It's from the shoulders down as opposed to like the shoulders up. Yeah.
00:32:16
Speaker
And so, like, he has this, like, iridescence, like a beetle, kind of. Yeah. And, like, it's really, really cool. There's, like, puppets that are guarding two doors and, like, yeah is one lying? Is it telling the truth? And they have costumes and armor.
00:32:35
Speaker
What's his name, Mr. Man, that's like guarding the bridge that has like the eye patch? He's wearing a full on like Elizabethan costume. He is. And he's another. i love him so much because he's Didymus. Didymus. Thank you. And like full Elizabethan. And it's like this teeny tiny little tailored Elizabethan costume.
00:32:54
Speaker
know. i There is something so magical about miniatures to me, like full stop. But this is like a section of costume design that I did not even process in my head until I started studying costume design, right? It's the fact that this is costume design. You're making tiny, tiny little things for tiny little bodies that are not necessarily real bodies, but that has to work as if they were functional little little people. and So it's like
00:33:25
Speaker
It's like, what do you think of the Muppets? you know You've got like giant Muppets. You've got tiny ones. It's the same thing here. And some of the puppets in Labyrinth just have fur. right And so that's like a different maybe a different department that's like creature building where they're working on skin and texture and all those things.
00:33:45
Speaker
But just the idea that there's like a whole massive workshop that's making all these incredible like tights and leggings and shirts and like... armor, all these different things for these puppets.
00:33:57
Speaker
i I want that, I think, in my life. I just, in my head, I really want to see like, like a you know, Didymus going in for his costume fitting. like i Like now, if Henson was doing something like this now with social media, and if they had an intern with Stoic, I would be so into it.
00:34:24
Speaker
Just like little commentary on the costumes that they're wearing. I know. it Just like having like the puppeteer, like, and the puppet just like fully in character, like in the room, he's like looking in the mirror. Someone's like, you know, pinning out a little alteration that they need to do on his little doublet. Okay. Now give that a try. It's a little tight under the arms. It would be incredible. i would lose my fucking eyes. Yeah.
00:34:55
Speaker
I wouldn't be able to get anything done. I just, ah but there are so many, there are so many shapes in this that are not solely because like a lot of the time with fantasy, you can kind of like point your finger towards like,
00:35:12
Speaker
Western medieval or Western Renaissance. We have so many different crossovers from from like different eras that it kind of makes something new, which is really nice. And not all of it is pristine either because like Jareth when we see him is kind of like you know color blocked in a lot of things where there's not you know a ton of like intricate stuff happening with a bunch of his trousers like some of them are just like smooth gray right that's it but then you'll get like a cloak that has so much going on like gloves gloves all day and then he's got this baby blue
00:35:53
Speaker
blouse from like better that has like ah hair or fur coming from the shoulders that like your brain kind of automatically interprets as his hair, but it's not his hair, but it's kind of the same color. And then there's like ruffles, but it's all, um,
00:36:14
Speaker
broken down. so like there are little holes and tears and like little things all over the place. So he's never like one level of like, I'm the king of the goblins. And so I'm always wearing like all this beautiful, beautiful, beautiful stuff. Like,
00:36:31
Speaker
his character journey. What is his closet? And how many times is he running to that closet going like, oh, she's getting closer in the maze. I have to put on a different blouse. Oh, can't be seen in the same blouse twice. That's shameful. I have to have all the different things.
00:36:47
Speaker
There's something like, I don't know what the word is, like scrappy about being a goblin. There's something sort of like, like a scruff level. Yeah. It's not, it's not perfect and pristine. There's something sort of, I don't know. I'm like shaking my arms. Like, I don't know what to call it. um But so it's like, I'm a
Character Design of the Goblin King
00:37:10
Speaker
puppeteer. I'm, Oh God. I'm puppeteering myself in every day, but um there, so it makes sense that there would be something,
00:37:19
Speaker
this sort of slightly broken down quality. Even the king of the goblins would not perfect. Because he's underground, right? like Yeah. Yeah.
00:37:30
Speaker
They're like... I don't know Goblins are like, they're not like bad, but they're like a little bit, you know, wily or like a little bit tricky or a little bit sneaky. These ones especially, they're all like fairy. They've all got very specific faces. They're not meant to look like sweet little fairies. They're meant to look kind of like a little bit bumbly, which is very fun because we do get like one fairy and she bites Sarah.
00:38:01
Speaker
Yeah, and then she dies because Hoggle's got like very like extermination kills or spray bottle, whatever that is ah It made me think of the the fairy from Legend, honestly, where it's like there's clearly been some filming of like an actual person in a costume and then we're like compositing that like image in to make her like really tiny. um
00:38:33
Speaker
there were There were definitely some moments in this movie where there would be like... Here's the person in the thing and we're like compositing and shrinking. And then like, here's the shot where ah like a human is like interacting with like a miniature of that thing. But everything was made so well that it wasn't ever like jarring that you're seeing like two different things because like the technical skill was so great.
00:39:04
Speaker
It's nuts. Yeah. That like fast forwarding through the documentary, being able to see their workshop was really, really cool. Cause it's like in Lord of the Rings when you get like an insight on what a workshop, just any workspace where you see all of this stuff being made is so cool because like in my heart of hearts, I'm really hoping that everyone who fabricated anything on this project, like really loved it because the way that each thing that's made is so beautiful I hope that it like was a rewarding workplace because i know there's so much skill on display here.
00:39:42
Speaker
who I know. It's just like, yeah. I mean, like you always hope that, but especially when something is as good as all of these things are, it's like you want it to be a good experience for the people that made it too, because what a dream.
00:39:57
Speaker
Totally. And it's like, that is it. It's like, it's like a dream. Like, how cool would it be to get to work on a project like this where it's like, yeah, you know, I made a bunch of tiny, tiny armor and each thing had to be totally different. And I had to follow all these illustrations that this like artist made about goblins. Like, yeah, that's fun as hell. yeah Like, ah what a dream. No, they don't make them like this anymore. No. And it's really weird that this was basically kind of considered like a commercial failure in the US and apparently like really hit Jim Henson kind of hard. It made money internationally, but this was like the last live action that he did for. Right.
00:40:42
Speaker
Right. Like, was it ever or just for a while? think it might be ever. Yeah. And so that's really sad because it's like such a generational, I don't know, it it affected millennials. Yeah. like it's it's legacy lives on it's legacy lives on like you think about it and it's very iconic david bowie's like crazy ass makeup like the the mullet the king mullet it's just like insane and i know well it it's like it's it's always really hard to like pour that much of yourself like into a project and then it doesn't do like what you wanted to to do
00:41:26
Speaker
even if you feel good about what you made, it sucks too not have anyone, you know, not anyone, but it sucks to have it not do well because that will affect your ability to do it again in the future. Like, you know, that's the thing about um like the, the entertainment industry, like, you know, like theater, film, TV, like opera, dance, like all of those things. Like it's an art form, but it is a commercial art form. And if you don't make money for the people that gave you the money to make the thing, your ability to continue making things is in jeopardy.
00:42:15
Speaker
And it's different than being like a painter where like you can paint your your whole life and like never sell a painting. But if you want to keep painting, you just keep painting, you know, unless you're like independently wealthy. It takes a lot of money and a lot of people to make a movie. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:33
Speaker
And you can't do it on your own unless you're just happened to be like a billionaire and good for you if you are. But, you know, the rest of us. like And this is like such a ah moment right now where I feel like we're we're trying to go back.
00:42:50
Speaker
to making things like this again, which is like a really welcome swing for me. yeah um and a lot of other people, like employable people, but also, you know, like audiences where it's like, there's just so much that these skills give to, to the grounding of something into the reality of it that like, you can't fully get just using other techniques like right you want to merge things but it's like this is some of this is so specialized like that it's it's like don't take this away don't don't stop this from being a thing that exists like creature manufacturing is so cool and yeah like i
00:43:40
Speaker
The school that we went to, they did do ah ah show that had puppets. um And that one like lives on in infamy. not infamy, that sounds negative. It lives on in legend. because which Which one are you talking East of the Sun, West of the Moon. Ah, yes. I was in that show. Yes, you were. Like the costumes in that were stunning. Yeah. But also because like you had to like raise your design to meet the level of the fantasy that you're creating by all these like massive puppets. And some of those puppets like lived on in the building for a while. Yeah.
00:44:13
Speaker
But there's like something incredibly magical and of course theatrical about creatures live and like text. tactile creatures that are existing with actors that have to be costumed and have to have really intricate designs. Like if they have little laces, those laces have to be the right size.
00:44:36
Speaker
So somebody has to find or manufacture laces that the right size. You have to have a cobbler that can make little tiny shoes. like Yeah. It's like um the a production company, Laika, that makes stop motion. – They have a costume department and you got to make costumes for figures that are like a foot tall and everything has to be proportional. And I will never get over learning about the sweaters and like the the knit items for Coraline. Yeah. And that's an artist who makes her own hooks out of embroidery needles. Mm hmm.
00:45:16
Speaker
And then like knits using a magazine. Like thread, like basically. with like embroidery floss. And it takes months. But she does incredibly intricate designs. And they are all practical. So anybody who's ever seen like as Coraline, all of those little knit costumes are real.
00:45:36
Speaker
They are not. like A computer did not make those. No, they and did real. And like that's. That. Watching this movie, like the the ancient goblin king trying to pull 14-year-old human girl of it all aside, all of the technical skills on display are really inspiring.
Legacy and Impact of 'Labyrinth'
00:46:02
Speaker
And just like watching it just like made me just like really like kind of emotional because I was like – What the hell? Apparently in 2017, there was like a big um like exhibition or a bunch of the costumes were on display somewhere. And um I don't really know if there's a ah concentration of them on display.
00:46:23
Speaker
But I feel like very often when people think of movies like this or projects like this, they're like, oh, yeah, we're going to get the the named stars. So it's like Sarah's costume is on permanent display or we're going to have David Bowie's Jareth.
00:46:36
Speaker
Which I want to see them because I want to see all the stuff. But like, where are the puppets? i want to see where the pu i want to see those up close. Because like to go back to um ah Hoggle again, like not only is that vest so intricate, but there's like so many little details that like show little things that he's like collected in his life. Yeah. and like Yeah, he's like a little magpie. Yeah, he's a little magpie. So there's just like all this stuff that like dictates personality the same way that you design for, you know, a human character that isn't. I mean, this is played by a human person wearing like a mask. But, you know, there's just so many intricate details that people would be like, oh, well we don't have time.
00:47:23
Speaker
just right Just make this happen. Did you read about what happened to his costume or like the Hoggle character? no His that puppet or like, you know, suit, whatever you want to call it, was found in lost luggage at like an airport in America in like the early 2000s. And it was like severely degraded.
00:47:48
Speaker
What? It was like a found and like abandoned lost luggage and no one knows like how it got there. This is okay. This is like a thing that we've touched on before. And I've talked with other people about this who've spoken specifically to people who work in warehouses and all that. But like one of the big ones that I'll never forget is um Yeah, the Dorothy costumes from Wizard of Oz, which you think like, oh, those are really, really famous.
00:48:16
Speaker
Found balled up somewhere, like on the top of filing cabinet, like in a bag. And then was like gently, very delicately restored. It's so wild to me how...
00:48:29
Speaker
production companies, because not necessarily saying that this is like to the fault of the Henson company, you know, but it's because like maybe somebody stole, you know, stole the stuff and then just like hit it, whatever. Lost it and didn't want to declare that they lost it because they stole it or something.
00:48:45
Speaker
Because like many things have been stolen because a lot of like film companies had no plan for storing these things. Right. And then when they do, they just like shove them somewhere.
00:48:57
Speaker
And don't think to have like an archivist or someone who's like maintaining them. They're not automatically going to a place like Western to like be cycled through. at the same time, like even like theater costumes that I've like designed and made, I have no idea what happened to those after the show. like Yeah.
00:49:18
Speaker
Some walk away with actors. Some walk away with people. And that's true on film as well. yeah Like some just walk out of the building. But it's like unless there is like an attached place with people who work specifically in that area to like launder and maintain all of these things – where do they go? and like, where do all these puppets go? Like, do they stay dressed in their clothes? It's not like they're being disassembled. And then if they're not stored a certain way, they are just degrading over time.
00:49:53
Speaker
it is It's completely at the discretion of who is a whoever is in charge of that place. And It's interesting because like, especially like when you're doing, you know, theater, like ah for a very, you know, specific run, like not open-ended, like the show closes on this date. And, you know, as the designer, you know, you made stuff, you bought stuff, you like whatever you It doesn't belong to you after the show closes. It belongs to whoever paid for it. Yeah.
00:50:30
Speaker
And they can do whatever they want with it. They could throw it in the trash if they want to. It's not up to you. Hopefully they're not going to Like don't think most places would. But, um you know, it's like like if some you don't get to say. Yeah. And like if something is considered like a commercial failure.
00:50:45
Speaker
How does that affect you know yeah the storage certain things? Is it like lucky that we still have some of the costumes intact that have been given to the Motion Picture Museum? like There's so many things that I just don't know about how that works. like Where's that little red scarf from the little worm guy? I know.
00:51:02
Speaker
Is it still on the little worm guy somewhere? like Right? Where's the little doublet? Yeah. Where's the doublet? Where's his saddle blanket? Where's all this stuff? Because i think that it's it's it's one of those things that like we kind of have like a hit or miss where we've definitely talked about it before that people always want to like talk about, oh oh, the illustrious costume designer. Ooh, designed this, that, the other thing. But then the actual tactile...
00:51:32
Speaker
objects right can disappear. And it's like the actual example of the work, like where is all this little armor? Where'd go? it get repurposed ever? like The only thing you really know that you're going to have at the end of this project is a film with like images of the stuff that you designed. The ephemeral proof of something.
00:51:52
Speaker
And like, that's such a strange thing. And like, that's where ego has to come out of it. Right. Because of course you're proud that you made something, but like you said, it's not yours. It's work that you did. And so, yeah, afterwards, all you walk away with is the photos that you're allowed to take for your portfolio.
00:52:09
Speaker
And then, like, the stills from the movie. That's wild. Yeah. Like, people... People had to, I can't get over it. People had to make like little stockings and little shoes for crazy puppets. like ah Beautiful little things. that Just who knows where they are.
00:52:30
Speaker
um i feel like this this is like a movie that's really exciting to watch when you're looking at all these little details, but it's also just kind of like hard for me to pin down each and everything to talk about because there's so many things to look at. Yeah, kind of washes over you as like this fantasy. And there's a lot of like little characters and moments that because of like the nature of the story, like, you know, Sarah talks to them for a few minutes and then like they're gone and they're not coming back. Like we're not going to, you know, we're not going to see them again.
00:53:02
Speaker
So it's um like I found myself taking like very few notes on the movie because I feel like the movie just kind of happens to you. And you just kind of take it. And it's also film. So like depending on what you're watching on, if you stop, it's not necessarily going to be crystal clear where you're going to be able to see the details of like little background goblins or things like that. Like you're kind of going to only be able to see like what's in the foreground.
00:53:28
Speaker
And so washes over you. And like i also didn't take very many notes. I have more notes where I copied and pasted from the interview. And I was like, I need to get you these links because I'm so excited that people were talking about it.
00:53:41
Speaker
Oh, yeah, there was like the quote that I found from Mr. Froud. Did I say that? Oh, okay. um Yeah, I thought this was an interesting quote about the approach to the design, and it's a little long, so...
00:53:58
Speaker
bear with me. um We're not looking at reality. We're inside this girl's head. There are references to all sorts of things in his costume, talking about Jareth.
00:54:11
Speaker
There's the danger of a leather boy in his leather jacket which also has a reference to the armor of a certain type of German knight in it. There are references to Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights, and the tight trousers are a reference to ballet dancers. He's an amalgam of the inner fantasies of this girl.
00:54:29
Speaker
Everyone talks about Bowie's perv pants, but there's a reason for it all. it has a surface that's fairly light, but then every so often you go, oh my God, how did we get away with that?
00:54:41
Speaker
but This is why... I, oh my God. Like, I wish that there were like an intern position to like, ri to pull all ephemera together about a project afterwards so that you have like a concentrated place where there's like these, these interviews, these, these quotes, you know, photos, work up, working photos, working things. And like, they exist out there. Yeah.
00:55:08
Speaker
But they're not necessarily, I mean, Henson was really good at recording stuff. Like apparently he himself had a diary where he like, wrote things that happened like in a sentence about every day for like cool over 20 years. um And like the fact that they were recording behind the scenes about the making of this while it was happening in the eighties. Like I, I love that, that they were, and like the Emmett Otter was another handsome thing. And they have like behind the scenes stuff enough to have like bloopers, you know, which are some of my favorite bloopers world. um abbbawa But like there's,
00:55:44
Speaker
There's something that Jim Henson knew about recording the process. And it's like, I want to know how far that went. And like, I've never been to the Jim Henson studios. So I don't know if there's like an accessible archive or anything, or like a museum that is focused on those things.
00:56:05
Speaker
But, i I love that quote that you read because like right there it says like, these are the things that I was inspired by to combine to create this character. yeah like well and it' I think it's just a great illustration of the,
00:56:24
Speaker
ah the the fact that designers are telling you the story, even if you're not consciously aware of what they're doing. So like,
00:56:35
Speaker
They don't have to tell us in the movie that David Bowie's character is supposed to be like sort of a projection of the romantic like fantasy of this girl.
00:56:47
Speaker
But they know that that's what they're doing. And so some level of that is going to come to us as the audience. But I think it's just a really good illustration of one of the sort of like foundational principles of why we wanted to do this show this yeah way of talking about how storytelling can be used like or can be displayed through costume. And that it's not about pretty costumes.
00:57:16
Speaker
And that is, i think, a thing that drew us into this field. at all is that pretty costumes are exciting. For example, Sarah's ball gown.
00:57:27
Speaker
Yeah. But the ball gown speaks to so much too. And like, like you're pointing out that it looks like Glinda and that's something that we see in her room. That's like a height of a fairy tale image for her.
00:57:41
Speaker
And then she manifests it in the same way that he, Jareth, is wrapped up in all of these manifestations of like what she thinks are tall, dark, and like mysterious as like a teenage girl.
00:57:56
Speaker
All of these details coming from different perspectives. to to tell you the same information. It's like, there's so much sneaky info and like all those little pieces of armor for all the goblins. They're all meant. I'm sure that if Brian Froud was like interviewed on some of those designs or if the makers were, they'd be like, Oh yeah, I designed this so that this goblin could be most effective at this job. Like,
00:58:22
Speaker
Yeah. He's got a little weird helmet with spikes all over the place because he's the guy who does this. Like rams his head into, yeah, whatever it is. Yeah. And it's like, there's so much thought. Yeah. And like Hoggle, we talked about how he has all these little things all over his costume.
00:58:36
Speaker
There's probably a reason for those things. And so it's just like, I love it. And like with with the miniatures and the puppets and all this like variety, it just, it's such a a big, big, big way to do it, I think, because you have to manufacture like everything. Yeah. Right. And especially like a project like this that is like kind of pure fantasy with like very few exceptions.
00:59:08
Speaker
All of it could have been anything. Right. But it is all this. Like, these are the choices that were landed on. Like, but it could have been anything in the world.
00:59:20
Speaker
And these were the choices that the storytellers landed on. So um i think it's always good to keep that in mind that no one came out and said it has to be this other than the people that made the story. Like it was yeah their creative work. Yeah. And there were so many different filters of people going like, okay, well, this is the information we were given. This is how we're going to make it real.
00:59:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And so like, i I want to watch that documentary full, fully through see maybe what I can see about the the working style, massive workshop.
00:59:55
Speaker
um But yeah, I recommend watching it as an adult if you haven't seen it since you were much younger. Cause like, Yeah. Even if you're not really paying attention to the story, looking at all of the things that are happening on screen is pretty amazing. Like, and I, I do love that there are people kind of trying to swing back this way a little bit.
01:00:19
Speaker
Yeah. It's beautiful art. Speaking of giant workshop, What movie are we watching next?
01:00:30
Speaker
So this is the week that Wicked 2, Wicked for Good comes out. And I just spent yesterday with my friend Fiona watching a double feature of the first and the second. And you are about to see Wicked 2 tomorrow. So we're going to talk about that. And I am so excited because I'm sitting on my reactions to some of those costumes.
01:00:51
Speaker
Holy cow. Like I hope that Paul Tazewell, his self, has some things that he's talked about about these costumes and like where they were made even. You know, i'm I'm wondering what information is out there because just like this has so much volume, holy cow, Wicked for Good has so many bodies to cover in another pure fantasy. Yeah. And I love that they made...
01:01:21
Speaker
All of it. It is. This ain't no Polar Express. These are real people. Malinda, there's a scene, probably the same in the first one, although I can't like at this moment isolate. There's a scene where there are so many people and it's like you're you're very astounded by the fact of how much had to be made. like How many people were in this workshop?
01:01:45
Speaker
How many people? and were they multiple workshops? Were you hiring out? Like what what is the sitch? Because there's just like so – and this is – You know, this is not just like a one and done garment.
01:01:58
Speaker
It's layers and layers and layers and layers because Paul Teswell, I love it about him, loves textures and loves the details. And it's just like the millinery alone. Okay. I can't talk about it anymore. Join us. I know. ah Cannot wait. And I'm so glad because...
01:02:18
Speaker
When we were doing last season and, you know, picking movies, and I was like, I really think that we should do Wicked. And I know that it's not your favorite. So um i was really happy that ah that you kept an open mind.
01:02:37
Speaker
And wanted to see the movie and I'm so glad that the movie kind of gave more space to the story that is possible yeah in a two hour musical because the book has a lot of stuff that got left on the cutting room floor for that show And I also think it's so astounding that the costumes for the stage production are so legendarily beautiful.
01:02:59
Speaker
And this does not override that. It doesn't rewrite it. It just takes that and expands on it. Yeah. like And it's like, what could we do if you didn't have to make a 30 second quick change? oh Although there is a scene where Fiona turned to me and went, there's a quick change happening behind there. um but it was, you know, two theater people cackling. and love That's hilarious. i love it. I'm so excited to see the movie. I hope you have the best time.
01:03:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, so much we'll be back next time talking about Wicked. So everyone's homework is to go see it. Yes. Thank you for listening to this episode. You know, rambling the way we do. All right. I think that's ah his brand to be expected. Yes.
01:03:49
Speaker
If we were very, very concise, I'd be worried. Oh, God. These episodes would be like 15 minutes. It would be insane. Well, take care, everybody. Thank you for listening.
01:04:00
Speaker
Bye.