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Alice in Wonderland (1999)- She's Not Wearing Blue
21 Plays13 days ago
No fantasy season would be complete without Alice! And there are so many versions of Alice to choose from! We decided to go with this fascinating TV Movie from 1999 that has many, many familiar faces. Including the face of Whoopi Goldberg pasted onto the Cheshire Cat. Please follow us down the rabbit hole for this one where we question how you could possibly get more British than this story.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0164993/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_8_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_alice%2520in%2520wonderland
Music: Cassette Deck by Basketcase
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Transcript
Introduction to Hot Set Podcast and Episode Theme
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello friends. Welcome back for another episode of hot set. We are here. We are watching fantasy movies this season. And today brings us to ah one of many screen interpretations of the classic story, Alice in Wonderland.
Discussion of 1999 Alice in Wonderland Adaptation
00:00:43
Speaker
And for...
00:00:44
Speaker
This show in particular, we decided to watch the 1999 TV movie version of Alice in Wonderland um that is directed by Nick Willing and stars...
00:01:03
Speaker
Tina Margarino as Alice, who i did not know by name, but I certainly knew her face. I think um people our age will most ah most likely recognize her as Deb from Napoleon Dynamite, as well as many other things. Or her character from Veronica Mars. That's where I know from. Thank you. Yeah, I never watched Veronica Mars.
00:01:27
Speaker
Oh! Oops. It's so good. It's so good.
00:01:35
Speaker
Yeah, she played Cindy Mack McKenzie. Thank you. Thank you, Veronica Mars Scholar. um ah but this TV movie also has everyone else in it that you can think of as like a mover and shaker actor from 1999, particularly of the British variety.
Comparative Analysis of Alice in Wonderland Versions
00:01:59
Speaker
but like, it's crazy. There's we have Whoopi Goldberg. Robbie Coltrane, Ben Kingsley, Christopher Lloyd,
00:02:12
Speaker
Miranda Richardson, Martin Short, George Wendt, Gene Wilder, Mr. Willy Wonka himself, slash ah Frankenstein from our an earlier episode that we did i mean, like the list goes... like It just keeps going. like I could just keep scrolling. There are so many people now in this version.
00:02:40
Speaker
um And um as requested, I have to read the detailed plot synopsis from IMDb, which ah it goes as follows.
00:02:53
Speaker
Alice falls down a rabbit hole and finds herself in Wonderland, a fantasy land of strange characters and ideas. Period. Full stop. I mean, what else could it say? I know. i mean...
00:03:08
Speaker
Yes, that is absolutely true. That is what happens in this um this story. um And you said before we started that you don't necessarily feel like a scholar of Alice. Shockingly, this will be astonishing. No. The one subject out of all the subjects we've covered, this is my blind spot. Wow. But yeah, I just, i my my only real... experience of Alice in Wonderland as a kid was the Disney Alice in Wonderland. And then the Tim Burton ones came out and I was just like, okay, these, I can't really say, ah you know, about plot where those hit or miss because it's like,
00:03:56
Speaker
the Disney one is my background. Yeah, that's how I, that is definitely the one I have seen the most times is the Disney one. and I think I know this one. And so i believe also the Disney one. So for people that, um,
00:04:15
Speaker
you know, want to engage with the actual like original book, Alice in Wonderland.
Themes of Logic and Education in Alice
00:04:21
Speaker
There's also a sequel book, Alice Through the Looking Glass. And i this version, and I believe also the Disney version takes some of the characters from that sequel and incorporates them into this movie. So There are some characters, like the knight in particular, is from the sequel book. And there's someone else that's from the sequel that is like kind of a crazy to imagine movie versions of Alice without. So it's like kind of bizarre, but...
00:04:55
Speaker
I think – I know I at least, like, read – I think I read the whole book at some point when I was a kid. but Which is impressive. It's a long time ago. Victorian child ghost you.
00:05:09
Speaker
Victorian child ghost me I mean, Alice is an interesting story because – I find that the the sort of lack of plot of it kind of maddening. hu Yep.
00:05:27
Speaker
Yep. And that was actually what i disliked about the Tim Burton version in particular is they tried to like put a plot on a movie or a story that doesn't really have like an A to B plot.
00:05:43
Speaker
It's sort of like, I'm lost and I'm wandering around and eventually I get out. It's like it's like they took Alice in Wonderland and tried to make it into like the Chronicles of Narnia was sort of how I felt about that version. Yeah, with like...
00:05:58
Speaker
maybe moral is not the right but like a lesson kind of yeah like ah a clear like good versus evil kind of thing and i don't know i feel like the story of alice is more about like logic versus illogic than good versus evil yeah and like if you want Maybe like kind of like how Peter Pan is about like, you know, childhood and adulthood, kind of the same thing of like yeah the two overarching differences in perspective, one based on logic, one based on not logic.
00:06:32
Speaker
okay Yeah, sorry I am a scholar. oh Oh, my goodness. Yeah, but I think it's um I think it's intentional that um all of the kind of characters and situations that she encounters are sort of game and riddle based because that was sort of like.
00:06:55
Speaker
I feel like a lot of well-to-do children's education in that era was sort of like memorizing things and learning how to kind of perform intellectualism. yeah I don't know if that's right.
00:07:14
Speaker
I think that is right. That's a perfect way to describe it is like performing intellectualism by being able to drop the right poem to quote at a certain time. Yeah. The classics. Yeah.
00:07:24
Speaker
right Especially for a girl from like a well-to-do background, this is not like an era when people are painstakingly taking the time to like make you a well-rounded person. like you're That was not like the goal of education for women at that time.
00:07:42
Speaker
And so it's sort of like she's encountering things that she's familiar with because there's sort of this ambiguity about whether she's, you know, dreaming all of this up or did she go somewhere?
Cultural Reflections in Victorian Setting and British Influence
00:07:56
Speaker
Whatever. Who cares?
00:08:02
Speaker
Hot takes. I don't care. um Or yeah, that sounds really harsh. I think it's sort of like, it doesn't matter. It's like the fantasy, whatever. But yeah, this is a very particular type of fantasy that's like deeply rooted in like British culture of the eighteen hundreds Oh my God. It is.
00:08:22
Speaker
pretty intense where it's just everybody is so british and like that makes sense the writer was a lecturer at christ church at oxford and like just the most british surrounded by other british authors at the time and just like Like, Phil and I actually went to Christchurch and, like, got to walk around. And we saw, I think, Lewis Carroll's, like, his outdoor, the door on the outside that faces a green to, like, his offices or apartment or whatever. Yeah. And it was like, yeah.
00:08:58
Speaker
Yeah. This is the mouth of Britishisms. Like... Yeah. I remember taking a tour of Oxford and like they made a really big point of showing us the like dining hall that was used as like the operation for Harry Potter. Yep. Yep. Yep. We did the audio tour and because like we're we're horrible. Like ah we were just talking about this before recording. I'm a horrible audience member. I'm also a horrible tour member. um And so Phil and I did the audio self-guided tour and we walked up the stairs that they filmed Harry Potter, which are right outside the dining room and then go into the dining room. And I felt Melinda, I don't know how you felt going in there, but I felt so many generations of...
00:09:43
Speaker
ancestral rage and like not just ancestral my ancestors ah but ah like also just feminine rage like walking in there because there's still a portrait of henry the eighth in there and like there's all these portraits of these men that's just all these men but it was like There was also this guy like walking behind us who just like did not understand the idea of any space and kept trying to move me. And I was like, I'm built like a linebacker. Try it again, son. like
00:10:19
Speaker
I'm ready to like turn around and just like sing America the Beautiful into your face. 62 or not, I'll take you down. Like what? Keep your hands to yourself, especially in here. I'm already mad. Yeah.
00:10:33
Speaker
I'm already full of it. it' So weird. it's like it makes it It's sort of like illuminating being in your those spaces because they are like grand like in terms of yeah how they're made is to impress upon you like the grandeur of this life. And it is easy to understand how you would be fooled into thinking that you're important. if you're in that space. Oh my God. And then add on top of that, the, so sorry to any of our listeners, but the accents of the, the privileged who've walked. and just, yeah. talking Wonderland. Like, okay. And I think what I just did there was imitate the voice of the narrator in part of our audio tour. Because that is just permanently stamped in my brain from that experience.
00:11:33
Speaker
oh But yeah, was very much like, oh, no. And so... Yeah. Thinking of that kind of an education that a child would have received. And on top of that, a young girl would have received. And this movie version did what a lot of the other movie versions do, pulling from the book, which is um showing that this young girl is like expected to be doing something that she doesn't want to do. And so she's like escaping either into her imagination or into a real world. Rabbit hole. Yeah. um
00:12:05
Speaker
But in this one, she's supposed to sing a song.
Costume Design Choices in Alice in Wonderland
00:12:08
Speaker
Which I'm just like, you know what? Yes, do run away. Run away from home rather than sing a song in front of like 30 of your friends' most insufferable, like your parents' insufferable friends. not your friends, your parents' people. Your parents' friends. Older folks that are like, I don't even know these people. Why am I singing a song at them? Yes. And then, like, it spoiler alert for the end of the movie, she ends up singing the song at the end. and it's like 25 seconds. Yeah, she sings. She chooses a different song, though. Yeah. that She's like, no. I am woman. Hear me. Walrus.
00:12:47
Speaker
I was not ready for the sort of like Wizard of Oz framework of like all of the... ah Not all. Most of the actors that are going to be playing people in Wonderland were like the guests at this party. And a very ah like their clothes were like an echo of what we were going to see them in later. ah Which was like fun, but I feel like really supported the idea that this is just a dream that she had and not a real thing that happened. So I'm sort of like, okay, well, that's a choice.
00:13:25
Speaker
Yeah, we're landing on a very clear interpretation. and um I actually, I don't know what was happening between my eyeballs and my brain, but I did not absorb in the opening sequence that that we were seeing like Martin short and other people who would be coming back. And that like hit because during the movie, I read one of the um reviews on IMDB that pointed that out. yeah And then at end I was like, Oh, there everybody is. Yeah. Just like, wasn't taking it in. first There were, it was, it was sort of like, there were so some people that were,
00:14:05
Speaker
Well, at the very least, like, Whoopi Goldberg noticeably absent from that opening thing. And that would have been an immediate – like, would have picked her up immediately. would have been like, okay, here we are, grounded. Yes. Absolutely.
00:14:22
Speaker
But, yeah, I didn't expect it, and I was sort of like – oh, there are so many people here. I wonder if they're going to do that thing. And then it was like the camera like panning across. And then I like saw Martin Short and I was like, ah, yes, we are doing that thing. aha Okay. I spotted the American. we are doing the thing. The most American and also the most British in this case.
00:14:47
Speaker
how on ho ho pra oh Chewing the scenery. um so in the beginning, we are in like an eighteen sixty s Yeah. world and so it's very very drop sleeves like open necklines that like hairstyle for the women like covers your ears the loops of the hair with the ringlets and the low bun situation with the harsh line yeah let imagine sections every like civil war widow picture you've ever see truly so we are like very grounded and um the first scene that we see alice she's you know basically
00:15:27
Speaker
getting isn't she getting her like hair done or something shes like she's being yeah she's like the finishing touches preened over by yeah some lady women one of them whom of whom is her mother and all of these women have like accessories and they have pins like yeah all over and so much detail so much detail and alice at first And i I'll hold to this. Like, my first note is um that I love that it's a yellow dress. Because i think that a lot of people instantly identify Alice as always wearing blue and white and black. A blue dress, a white smock, little black shoes, and a black bow. And I think that that is just because of Mr. Walt Disney. It is 100% just because of Disney. And so, like, Disney also bringing that back for the live action was like, this was just...
00:16:20
Speaker
a choice that is Disney but it really really annoys me that even in stage plays people put her in a blue dress yeah and it's not a Disney licensed stage play that they're doing it's because it's like it become the it's just become the thing and it's like be more original and just to like derail but talk about costuming yeah um so not truly derail but from all kind of come to the point of the show yeah this is one of the things That, okay, when i was in college, and we went to the same program at a community college, um
00:16:57
Speaker
I took a scenic design. it was like a design class, but we designed for our final projects. scenic lighting and costume we got buddied up with another classmate and my classmate in the play that we were given to do was alice in wonderland And it was a very specific script. And um it was not a panto And it wasn't a Disney one. It was just kind of like a more straight it was kind of like this flavor Yeah. Where you're like, it's someone read the book and wrote. Yeah. And just like, boom. Yeah. And so we decided to design it, um, as if like to, to alter the stage as if it was a theater of the time. So like the lighting designer, Aaron was like really, really talented, um, and is very working very, very well right now in, in flight stuff. Um, and,
00:17:50
Speaker
He designed like gas lamps. And I remember that our teacher was like, so you're just going to burn down the whole theater, especially because I added for the scene scenic giant paper flowers. And you're like, yes, that is part of the show. Yeah. He was like, so everything on your stage is flammable. I was like, I mean, it would have been anyway, but yeah, extra. that That's why we hired an orphan to stand there with a bucket of sand. In case anything goes wrong.
00:18:14
Speaker
You got to stay busy. And so I designed Alice and the rest of the cast um basing their stuff on Victorian England Maybe a little bit later than 1860s, maybe I feel like people tend to go more Edwardian. They really Which is like early nineteen hundreds as opposed to 18. Like that's not to say like what one should or shouldn't be, but that is more common, I think. I feel like they try to separate it from Dickensian yeah as much as possible. And this one is very Dickensian. yeah And um I went a little bit later.
00:18:52
Speaker
And so like, I also crossed over with like my whole cast in all of my illustrated designs are African. African, British, essentially. And so but like crossed over with um design elements from tribes from the Omo Valley in Africa. And so there's like face painting, there's all these different things mixed in with like your wools and your your houndstooth and all these different patterns. There's all these flowers, all these things.
00:19:18
Speaker
So my Alice was not wearing blue. I think I had her in pink and white. No, well green. It was green and white. Yeah, I was thinking about her in this version because I um i didn't have any um aversion to her being in yellow. think that's perfectly fine like choice to make.
00:19:41
Speaker
I was more struck with how graphic her costume is compared to the adults. ok And I was sort of like, because... She doesn't change clothes throughout the movie. So you have to make through something. Yeah. You have to make something that can exist in both worlds. And that's really hard to do. And one is this big fantasy that's got like some very cartoony.
00:20:05
Speaker
scenes and designs in parts of it and um so i was more like thinking about how graphic and blocky her clothes were and everyone else in the sort of real world with her is very much more delicate delicate and detailed and like why i brought up the story about the college part is that I remember having this like really in-depth conversation because other people also had to design for the same thing. Yeah. And they were all designing her in blue. Yeah. And it was like, why are you doing that? Because that color is not representative of the character. That's not why it's being chosen, I think. It's just...
00:20:44
Speaker
a default and so like it's so nice to see people design this character differently and in this case she's graphic the way that a cartoon would be like the disney where it's just flat flat flat right yeah but i was really annoyed by one detail so it's very flat with stripes right yeah Or like she got she has striped stockings and then she's got like some black trim. Yeah, it's like three stripes trim. yeah
00:21:15
Speaker
And then one on her apron. yeah And so it's just very, very graphic, as you said. And then she has a ribbon in her hair. And the only thing that drove me nuts, because like I really like this, but was the harsh transition from her neck to the bodice. Like I just wanted there to be the hint of a collar.
00:21:34
Speaker
Yeah. Of something. A little lace edge. Something. Or a velvet edge. Something there. And that is so picky. Yeah. That I could not stop laughing at myself. And that might be why I missed some details at the top because i was like calm down, a-hole. Well, and I felt the only thing that I was really missing from her look personally was I just wanted them to do a little bit more with her hair.
00:22:00
Speaker
Yeah, that too. it's the my My issue here is I think her costume is perfect from like waist down. Yeah. I enjoyed it because I'm including – I'll include maybe a little higher the bottom – the cuff of her sleeve. From one quarter inch from her neckline down. Everything from there is fine. But it's like the hair, I did want something else to be happening. I wanted some curl. Yeah. Yeah. And then I also just, yeah, like some sort of collar or something. Because this was stage, I think I'd be fine, except for the hair. The neck wouldn't bother me. But because this is on film, most of what we're seeing is from torso up. And so the fact that we have the intentional details...
00:22:47
Speaker
underneath the camera line for most of when we're watching her, it really just like annoyed me. Because everybody else, everybody else in this has such interesting stuff going on. And it's not like yeah the most wild costumes. It's just that there's detail. There's intention in everyone. And it's just like, I was like, it would be just so nice to just... A little bit. I know. and I think it was just like...
00:23:15
Speaker
To me, because her hair is sort of like medium long brown and it's basically straight. She has straight hair, essentially. and It just made her look really contemporary to me. Like it made her look like a girl from 1999, even with the headband. So I just like knowing sort of what was common at the time. i just was like, I feel like her, if she really had like hair that was that straight, her caretaker, like nanny mom, whoever's doing whatever,
00:23:54
Speaker
would have like put her hair in like rag curls or something at night and so that she would have because that was what was considered desirable hair in like this time and place is to be like a little girl with cascading curls of hair like that was what the fashion ideal was And on top of that, we're seeing all these other characters around her, aside from some of the men who just have like a hat of some kind over their hair. So it doesn't really matter as much. yeah But like all of these other characters have crazy wigs yeah or like painted on hair or these very specific details that are very heightened. And so it's like just something to make her more...
00:24:43
Speaker
period because we are always stuck with her torso and her face so it's like or even like if she had like a like a half up braid situation or just like something something like some texture in her hair yeah like there was nothing wrong with it i just was like i felt like we could have done a little bit more but i don't know i don't know why they decided to to do yeah that Because I also would have enjoyed it if she did have those rag curls and then they fell out over the process of the movie. Because like it's another symbol of her being constrained, right? Like being shaped.
00:25:20
Speaker
Yeah. Even if she doesn't want it, someone else is doing her hair. And then if she's on this adventure and her hair is getting messy, great. Yeah. All the better. And I was trying to think of like, I wonder if this was not Alice in Wonderland, if this was just like a period movie about a girl in this sort of 1860s, like what would her costume be if it wasn't, if she was not going to go to to
Film Pacing and Musical Elements Critique
00:25:47
Speaker
Wonderland? And I think I kind of settled in my mind on more of like the secret garden kind of like inspiration of like what, um
00:25:57
Speaker
ah Wow. Cannot think of the character's name. Mary Lennox. Mary. um i I don't know. I was sort of like, I kept being like, I should go upstairs and get my book on like children's fashion in the 1800s. Cause I do have one. Cause I was just like, I wanted to refresh my memory of like what she would be wearing if this was not this story, if it was yeah just, but it doesn't really matter. Yeah. But it's, you know, that's the curiosity bug that we always get bitten by where it's like, yeah, here's a rabbit hole of my own making. Let's yeah jump down it. Yeah. I did write my next note is, oh, no, we're singing. Because if you were worried that there was no music in this, there is. I surprise musical question mark. And then that was like abandoned pretty fast. Like we had a song like pretty close to the beginning. And then we like didn't hear another one for like an hour and a half. And you know what?
00:26:53
Speaker
I'm okay with it. I know. I know. I don't remember the Mr. Mouse character from any other version of Wonderland that I've seen, but he was on screen for a long time. He was. And he was like a, he was kind of how I feel like the white rabbit is where he was like,
00:27:11
Speaker
A character that she engages with who leads her through something. yeah And his costume was great. His ears did make me want to throw up because whatever latex they were, it was like so thin that it like quivered, which was great. Like it's a great detail, but I was like. Yeah.
00:27:31
Speaker
And he, so first we see like ah a mouse, like a CG mouse. And then she's like holding on his tail as he's like taking her through water. And then he becomes ah a humanoid mouse where he's wearing a fur coat.
00:27:44
Speaker
And does he have tails? Because I think that they're split, like like a tailed coat in the back. Oh, like yeah. on the ground It's not one solid tail. It's yeah like meant to be the idea. Did he have a prosthetic mousetail for part of it?
00:28:02
Speaker
I feel like it might have. He might have. And then it like. Kind disappeared. Yeah. Cause he kind of, he like, he went under like a transformation. He like. He did. So yeah. But I was like, I don't recognize you, sir. don't know you. need to go read the book again. And the thing is that this character did something that kind of happens throughout this for me, which is that these humanoid animals and the CG slash puppet animals.
00:28:31
Speaker
They do this thing where they straddle a line of it's an uncanny valley. Yeah. It's like the tail that I saw, the tail that I saw was like two pieces and and it was really, really long the way that a tail would be, but because it was in two pieces and flappy, cause it was made out of fabric.
00:28:52
Speaker
It made me sick. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's this like really a lot of this movie has this sort of like hazy glow soft focus camera that I think is there to kind of make everything seem like dreamy and maybe try to blend together some of the digital visual effects into this world because it's 1999 and we have TV money, not like theatrical release money. yeah
00:29:27
Speaker
um But it did kind of make me feel at some points like a little bit like I was watching a video game. Yeah, it it there was an uncanny valley. Yeah. That's what I'll say. And it was yeah throughout. And this is where it really kicked in for me. Yeah, because there were like So like there were plenty of sort of puppets and puppeted like pieces. And the puppets were made by the Jim Henson company. and they were so great. And it was sort of like I would have preferred like it's hard because I know this is an era where everyone was really excited about computer
Character and Costume Design Highlights
00:30:05
Speaker
graphics. And people were really rushing to include them because people were excited about this new
00:30:12
Speaker
technology and everyone thought like, oh, this is what people want to see. Like, this is what we got to have. But I wish that they had not augmented puppets with CGI. So that is something that like really threw me. Because by threw me, it is so sorry to say it again, the uncanny valley at at all. Because like the puppets, a couple of them had this thing where that like the Dormouse, for example, when we're at the the um Mad Hatter Hare. uh tea party the door mouse is they all have such great detail these like puppeted heads they're beautiful but they also have an amount of realism to them that makes them disconcerting yeah because like if you see it in the wild it might be missing its teeth it might have brown teeth they might be kind of like crazy and sometimes we we
00:31:05
Speaker
clean that up for a puppeted fantasy thing to like, or even a CG thing, right? Because it's like, we're we're making this different world and we're making it clean, whatever. But these like the doormouse, I think was like missing a tooth or something like that. And I was just like, oh my God, like, what are we talking about here?
00:31:22
Speaker
And there was just like so much texture. And I think because these detailed, detailed puppets were up against the smooth, glowy CG, it just like really made it even more uncomfortable. That's not like the right word, but like disconcerting is.
00:31:41
Speaker
is yeah It was interesting. i i think I would have been more taken into the story if they would have just let it be practical effects and puppets because most of it was and then it felt like there was certain things that they were augmenting on top of that and i was like personally i didn't need that it was the smoothing yeah that made it a problem because it it
00:32:15
Speaker
maybe I can't, I can't actually find the words to describe it, but I will say this about the white rabbit, which is Kieran Shaw, who um we have seen throughout our lives playing many, many, a different character. um But Kieran Shaw is in a suit as the white rabbit. And then there's this like robotic puppet head, I think, um because the eyes are moving, the mouth is moving. Like it's very active. And, um,
00:32:42
Speaker
He's got really cute little costumes for that white rabbit. Let's not lie But the way that they augment this flipping rabbit now we were talking about Twilight last time. ah You and I. I don't know that that was yeah off mic. Which is good. Melinda has not was seen Twilight and never will. And that's totally fine. um but I don't know if you know this just from pop culture, like throwing things into your into your wheelhouse but the way they the white rabbit moved more about twilight against my will and i' ever going to i know i'm just gonna say this the way the white rabbit moved the ah the way they sped him up i shit you not is how all of the vampires move in twilight they got all i wish that you could all see her face and how she had to take that in
00:33:40
Speaker
I feel troubled. i feel like as someone who has never ascribed to any religion, I think I might need to go pray on that.
00:33:53
Speaker
It made me laugh in such a crazy way. was just like, hold up. Because the scene where Alice is trying to get a fan and a glove for the white rabbit, who's very busy, obviously, and on his way. She's late. She's late.
00:34:08
Speaker
he's like for a very important date and he says go get one from the house and so she finds ah a book and it's like a pop-up house that she steps into and it becomes real and that's where she finds you know the drink and she drinks it like a fool and she's like oh maybe something will happen immediately starts to get giant and she's like i didn't think to leave i can drink me what choice do i have my goodness it's so she's giant she gets stuck inside the house and it's the rabbit's house of course So he can't get in the front door because she's holding it shut. And so he moves around the house. Yo. what
00:34:44
Speaker
The way that they speed him up is a Twilight vampire. Get on my back, spider monkey. Which, by the way, is a line. i i have I have heard that line.
00:34:55
Speaker
But my question about, well, never mind. It's a question for another time. This is an off mic conversation. What I did like in that scene is the guys that he gets to come help him that have these hand-painted...
00:35:12
Speaker
costumes the one in particular he's like his his costume is like hand painted to look like brick or like cobblestone and it's like these very nice colors in a green palette it was a really nice costume and so was the rabbit's waistcoat Oh, it was beautiful. The way that it buttons over, yet there is no collar. There's like ah a lapel extension that buttons up kind of like told the toward the shoulder line on the opposite yeah side. It makes like a Y shape with the buttons down the front. It was so great. It was really cool. It was tailored to that little rabbit.
00:35:48
Speaker
Not rat. Rabbit body. Wow. Wow. so way testing is illusions My people. um ah This, this TV movie did win ah primetime Emmys for the costume design, the makeup design and the visual effects. In addition to, I think the music.
00:36:12
Speaker
It earned it. Like the costumes are delightful. And let us take a brief moment to talk about our designer who we have talked about before on this podcast. Because this is Charles Canode or Node, probably said the same thing the last time, who designed Legend. Legend. So we've met him this season. Yeah. And so design Legend, Braveheart, like a lot of very... Blade Runner. Yeah, Blade Runner. Kate Bush music video. Can't go around that. Never say never again. Like all sorts of stuff that's very, very grounded. And like ah Monty Python's The Life of Brian Jabberwocky. Incredible. Yeah. miss carol the thing But like very – there's a lot of experience with historical costumes and like a lot of –
00:37:02
Speaker
just very grounded, textured costumes. And like you could see or at least like we we could see watching this movie, how different scenes in this, he played with the historical references that he was pulling from. Like um like the Mad Hatter tea scene is very like eighteen thirty s inspired in like costumes. This weird...
00:37:31
Speaker
transitional period between the sort of like Jane Austen 1810s that we know and the like 1860 big hoop. Like there's this really, I love the 1830s because everything just looked weird. Everything weird.
00:37:47
Speaker
absolute bananas because like the sleeves the hair it's all crazy and like way to go but this this scene is one of my favorite combinations of costumes because the mad hatter and the hair are complementary to each other the hair has striped like gray and white pants and the mad hatter has check gray and white pants and then from the waist up they both have just like so much color and like texture happening and the hair has like plaid and then the mad hatter I think has more solids.
00:38:25
Speaker
I think so. Not in like a ah spotted... um But like his his hat surprised me. oh I loved his hat. So of course it's a giant top hat. Yeah.
00:38:37
Speaker
But it's straw. it's that very... Yeah, and it's like that super exaggerated yeah shaped top hat where it like fans out at the top and like the sides like curl up. But yeah, the fact that it was made out of straw was so surprising to me. yeah Because like people just... When you think of a top hat, you automatically, I think, think of black or some sort of sedate color that's like very handsomely made, but will have like some ribbon or something around it and not tons of crazy. then like, I think a lot of people, Disney, Mad Hatter, very bright.
00:39:14
Speaker
um But also the cartoon, because it's flat, you could be like, oh, that's just wool. That's like very bright. And then yeah the live action one is bonkers. Yeah, in its own way. In its own way. And it has like stuff coming down from it, like trim. But this is straw and like very in ah just the construction alone. Yeah.
00:39:36
Speaker
Yeah. And it was really interesting because like when we see the sort of, you know, real world version of him at the beginning, he is wearing a straw hat that still kind of stands out as, because as like, what is that shape? Like, I don't really know. It's almost leaning towards like a boater, but like, it's not a boater hat, but it is made of straw. So it's sort of like this weird echo that you get in the movie, but yeah. Um,
00:40:07
Speaker
Yeah, I thought that was a really fascinating choice that I've never seen anyone else make. Yeah, I really liked it. And it it just like worked so well with all of these things that he's wearing. And then there's also another detail that I really enjoyed, which was his right sleeve, the sleeve head, where, yeah, miss correct me if I'm wrong.
00:40:32
Speaker
But it looks like, like the way that I read it was that the sleeve like was falling off and this is a repair. That it's like an exaggerated thread where you see the stitches in white thread and then part of the stitch is left loose. So it's a loop.
00:40:47
Speaker
At the front of his shoulder. That was what I as well. Because I was like, I might be blind. i don't know. There might be like a watch hanging from that. I don't know. No, it looked like a repair and then sort of like someone just like pulled the needle off the thread and left the tail.
00:41:01
Speaker
And it's just like... a really lovely tiny detail that like you look at it and it's white against like dark green, but it's, it does not hold the whole thing hostage. It's like just a great little detail that like you kind of catch at certain angles of Martin Short being filmed. Cause of course this character is Martin Short. I loved it so much. It was great. There are so much of this TV version of the costumes that seemed very theatrical. Oh, yeah. The whole thing like seemed really, really theatrical. Like um the the Red Queen and her court. Oh, my God. All of their fabric. Okay, first of all, come on now. This was delightful. Because the makeup alone, but we'll get there. But like the fabric for all of their costumes Yeah.
00:41:51
Speaker
It was very purposeful. i ah want to say that it all looked hand painted. can't imagine that it was not. But it had be. It's all muted it looks like it's washed out like paper that's like been through it and been in the sun for a really long time. And it's like when you see the Red Queen, like the details around her face when you see close ups of her.
00:42:15
Speaker
are very much hand done. Like they're very loose. And it's like, this is awesome. Like there's so many details that go into this. And it was surprising because like all of the playing cards and everyone else look exactly what you think a play, like a playing card. So they're actually more bright in their color than her, which is an interesting choice to make the queen she looks like she's been paint like in in watercolor like whatever paint or dye that they were using for the fabrics there was like a lot of watering it down and both she and the king have this same thing happening and it's and also the other court cards have the same kind of mutedness i'm looking at one of the pictures on imdb and like yeah
00:43:09
Speaker
Everybody, even the cards, they do have like a dirty look to them. They do. Like they've been handled a lot. But they are brighter, which is very backward, which makes sense for a backward world. I have always really liked the playing cards ah as like... ah character um design like in any version of Alice and I it's one of those things sometimes where if I'm like watching something and I'm like okay if I was gonna cosplay which I don't really do and I wanted to be one of the characters from this I'd probably want to be one of the like lowly playing cards just because I love their weird card tabards. They're so cute. They're tabards in the hoods and then like just red leggings and some boots. Yeah. You got it.
00:43:58
Speaker
know I know. And it's it's great because the the front of the tabard obviously has like the front of the card. So it's got like, you know, two of hearts, three of hearts, whatever.
00:44:09
Speaker
And the back has that like scrolly back, like the red and white back of a playing card. Like the only one I can think of is the like bicycle brand, you know, classic playing card. And like all of that is like hand painted on too. And you barely like really get to see it because they're always like facing the camera. Like they're not facing away that much. But it was so well done and just like so beautiful to look at. And like the costume that would be really fun to cosplay if I as well were cosplayer would be the knave of hearts.
00:44:48
Speaker
Because his little hat. Oh my god. yeah Amazing. But um there's just like the hand details on that. And then like there's just really cool draping happening in like the sleeves.
00:45:03
Speaker
There's like there's a lot of cool structure happening on that piece. But also the makeup for this whole court. Oh my God. the makeup and the hair is so camp, so drag that it is...
00:45:21
Speaker
Delightful. The eyebrows alone. Everybody who is not a lowly playing card has these crazy blocked out eyebrows that are just like painted on in the most delightful ways. Everyone is different. So um i don't I don't know if you ah went on YouTube and watched the 12-minute behind-the-scenes featurette. I did not. um
00:45:52
Speaker
I was really hoping that there would be a little bit more information about like costumes in it. ah I didn't really get a lot that I was like looking for. um There was a cool moment where there's like someone like on like a soundstage like painting hand painting one of the like books that are like 12 feet tall. and That was cool. But there's a moment where they're.
00:46:16
Speaker
interviewing Miranda Richardson she's like sitting in like a director's chair like on the set and she's in the full queen of hearts makeup with her eyebrows blocked out and the like bald cap that's like painted because she doesn't really have hair she doesn't have the crown on so she's just like sat down during like a break and filming in this insane like makeup and bald cap being like Oh, it's such a fun project. I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, because she has a freaking comb over essentially painted onto a bald cap. And then she's got a hood. Like when you think of like Anne Boleyn hood on with like a crown mixed in Like the millinery in this alone is so fun. Oh And like great to look out for. And i mean, there's just, there's so much...
00:47:10
Speaker
at on display for a TV movie that is like people would would argue that the the hours required to get this stuff done wouldn't be worth it or would be more expensive. And like, I don't know your budget. I can't break it down without looking at it. But it is so worth it because it heightens this separation from reality so well. Yeah. Oh, like there's so much here, set-wise, makeup, hair, costume, all of it that is like so great. But yeah, the fact that it's like,
00:47:41
Speaker
so glossy but soft like this makes me like bre it and that's just my own eyeballs I Also have to shout out Gene Wilder as the mock turtle. Melinda. How did you feel when, because i we both knew he was in it, but like when the time came and he comes on screen, what was your reaction? I was so happy to see him. i was just like transfixed by his weird wrinkly turtle costume. Oh my god.
00:48:23
Speaker
Okay, so we've talked about how much deliberation there's been in the other costumes. Yeah. We're going to focus in on this one because how you just described it is perfect. Please go on um I mean, like if we're talking about camp and we're talking about drag, the sort of like scrunched stretch velvet like sleeves that turn into gloves that are all just encrusted with rhinestones. Yeah.
00:48:50
Speaker
And the turtleneck of it all. Oh my god Like this, ah the what I wrote down in my notes was the mock turtle costume they put on Gene Wilder made me laugh out loud.
00:49:01
Speaker
It feels very much like what you'd put an older fellow in. So he doesn't get cranky. Like everything about it is comfortable. It's so there's there's soft. There's no Batman cowl struggle happening here.
00:49:15
Speaker
like no And I said the base of it is a f freaking turtleneck. The base of it, you guys, is a f freaking turtleneck. And then everything else. Weird tan. And he's got like scrunched, like stretch velvet, like leggings on. They look, it looked very comfortable. the It's a sheer costume.
00:49:33
Speaker
It is. And there there is a brief like two seconds in the featurette where you see two wardrobe people like clipping him into the shell like on the soundstage because it is fully built like a theater costume where it's like a backpack that you put on and you like strap in and then they like put the chest piece on him and you're like good to go. roll camera. Yeah.
00:50:00
Speaker
made me laugh so loud because was just like shocked because we see so many other things happening for all of these other costumes his costume feels very much like Alice's where it's more graphic the way that like a theater thing would be like this is the budget we have this is the time we have so this is how we're going to paint this boom and then like there are other ones that have like the the court the cards they all have that those hand details and a lot of like thinking going into it and I'm not saying that there wasn't thinking going into this at all that's not what I'm saying but it just feels like it was like rented from somewhere know It's like this is the only turtle costume that we could find, which might not be true at all. I bet they made it. Like, I bet they made it. Yeah. But it was like, did you have like a different design and then you had to simplify it? And like, we just got to get it done kind of situation. I don't know what it is, but it's just like, it's just feels like, let's put Uncle Gene into this.
00:51:01
Speaker
Okay, what about bang Mr. Ben Kingsley as the like British colonizer military man? like That was crazy. The Caterpillar military Caterpillar was insane. And also, okay, I cannot think of what these are called.
00:51:19
Speaker
But he has these like spikes going down his back that are these plastic oh like pieces that are all connected at a base that light up. And I remember these from when we were kids where you could like change the lights and you could use them instead of like Roman candles or whatever on New Year's. And um I cannot think for the life of me like what they were called. But basically it feels like they found like a bunch of these things and we're like, yes, we will incorporate these. into this giant caterpillar this uh yeah the colonizing caterpillar was really strange and like his buttons all lit up but cg yeah that was sort of like i was because it's like there was so much of his costume that was like practical and he's in this like red military coat with all this like gold braid and he's very much like
00:52:14
Speaker
I am here to take over your ancestral home. Like, and he's like sucking down that hookah the whole time. um and then it like was, was augmented with like the CGI for the lights in a way that I was like, Oh, I don't need that. I didn't need that. Cause it was crazy looking. It was like anxiety inducing.
00:52:40
Speaker
Because it was just like you're turning him into a a strange disco ball. A little bit. it was it was intense. i was I was waiting the whole time to see our two little fancy boys, Tweedledee and Tweedledum. I think I'm just like in my mind, the sort of order of the scenes is tied to the Disney version. And we meet Tweedledum and Tweedledee and Tweedledum fairly early in that. And then they come back later. Mm-hmm. And this one we had to like wait until the end. Yeah. And to and have them do the the walrus and the carpenter story. And I feel like that one comes a lot sooner in the yeah version. In the Disney version, it feels like we're busy, busy, busy. There's people moving around and it's like we're seeing these NPCs in a game and they're minding their own business. and we're like, well, we're on a mission. So we'll come back and we'll see you later. And this one, it feels like everybody's very static. Like I'm sitting here, I'm waiting until my part gets activated. Yeah. Which is strange. The pace of this one was very languid in a way that felt...
00:53:57
Speaker
kind of um counter to this story because i I feel like, you know, you're supposed to kind of feel like up is down, right is left. Like I can't get a handle on what's going on and everything's kind of like chaotic and I don't know what to do as like Alice. Like she doesn't know where she is and like nowhere to go. and And she's just kind of stumbling around, like, taking things as they come. And it felt like the pace of this movie was really slow for something that I think is supposed to make you feel off kilter. Yeah, because this movie is about two hours and, like, 14 or 15 minutes long. And you feel every single one of those minutes going by. Like, I'm going to admit, I was in my phone. Like, anytime a new character was introduced, I would pay attention and and note something down. But, like... yeah It was hard to stay engaged.
00:54:52
Speaker
Yeah, the scenes really, i felt like every single scene with these characters, like we could trim like two, three minutes out of it. And it would have really greatly improved the pace. And so I'm like, am I just 20, 25, like broken brain? Like, I think I entertained. I think there's part of that for me. And I think that there's also we don't really watch TV movies anymore because we have streaming.
00:55:22
Speaker
And so like TV movies always had this kind of pacing for me, like where they're like, yeah, we're just going to flesh out what you don't get in theaters. Because, like, that's the difference here is, like, this is an adaptation and we're going to really go all in. And I think, yeah, my brain is broken. and so I'm like, the five-year-old in me is like, no no no no, no, no, no. By the time we got to, by the way, Fred and Ned. It's Ned Tweedledum, Fred Tweedledee. Yeah, oh sure. Okay, whatever. Their costumes are...
00:55:59
Speaker
i'm i'm I'm enjoying it because we also have this washed out thing happening with them. Their outfits are basically like tan pants. It's very similar to like the costume of the cartoon structure where it's like yes pants that go up very high. And then at the top, they have stripes and buttons. And they've like made the guys very round. Very round. Like padding. and Yeah. Yeah. And like the the stripes are basically gray. there's yeah We don't really head into like black. And then there's like it really fades out as we get towards the center and like fades out as we like move away kind of to help with the curvature thing. Visual trickery. if Visual trickery and also just like making it less harsh. And they –
00:56:49
Speaker
yeah They have these little little bow ties that are like this like satin. It's like a double weave satin. So it's like a very shiny green. I think they're actually changeable because they use the same fabric on their dumb little hats. And I say dumb with all of the praise in the world. Like I love how stupid their hats look. No, but that's ridiculous. Yeah, they're so great. But they're like paneled and beautiful.
00:57:15
Speaker
it's um I noticed it on the hats because when they turn their heads, they turn like they're green and then they turn like yellow and then they go back to being green. So I think it was a changeable fabric that was a green and yellow so it's not like yeah super dramatic but like it's really like a lot more yeah than the ties did it's like whatever the weave is it's those two colors one warp one left yeah it's like yellow and green and it was yeah really really really it's nice Like to break up something that's like tan, black and white too with yeah this green, yellow magic trick happening. Yeah.
00:57:54
Speaker
They were fun. I loved them. They look so stupid. they looked like so dumb like They look like the worst boys you could ever have to deal with in the Victorian era. With their like... supperable Slapped on like circles on their faces, like the pink cheeks. And then like the giant collars that say their name, I think. and Yeah, their names are like hand printed, which was such an interesting choice because it's like the name like starts like on the back and kind of wraps around to the front only on one side. hmm.
00:58:25
Speaker
So you kind of could ignore it if you weren't like paying attention or like you wouldn't necessarily notice it. um But they just looked so stupid in such a cute way.
00:58:37
Speaker
um but yeah, I was like waiting for them to show up the whole time. Finally, they came at the end. There is a shot of Tweedledee and Tweedledum with Alice that I really did like, which is where they're all looking in the same direction. So it's a shot from behind them. And because their biggest design motif, all three are striped details, her legs are striped and their torsos are striped. So it's like, bump, bump, bump. It's just like, it's really, really cute. It works together very, very well.
00:59:11
Speaker
Yeah. And then after that, I feel like I blacked out for the rest of the movie. Yeah. I mean, she went back home. She sang her little song. Everybody clapped their claps. And I was like, great.
00:59:22
Speaker
In between that, we meet the knights. That's happens. We have the knights. So there's two suits of armor that we see. And it says a lot that by this time I'm checked out because these suits of armor, one of the knights is Christopher Lloyd. yeah and And I was like, I'm out. Unfortunately, but the design of these pieces of armor is like more blunt than I think I'm used to seeing in a lot of like film armor.
00:59:53
Speaker
and it helps again with making this feel like a very separate world because like the helmets, um one of them is a horse. The red knight I think is a horse. And the white knight, I can't remember what his helmet is. Oh, see, in my head, I was like, they're both horses. I didn't think about it. and I don't know if that's true. It might have been a little bit more dog-like. Yeah, it could have been little bit different, but they might have both been dogs. oh I don't know. I think he might he might have been a dog because his face is more snubbed. little bit more flat. Yeah.
01:00:26
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And so they they're very cool looking, but they also look very fantasy. They do. Without trying to replicate something more real or even necessarily something 100% practical. And they absolutely had knitted chain mail. like it was there's no It was not metal. It's so, again, theatrical. And like when Christopher Lloyd gets knocked on his ass and he's like on the ground, you can see the soles of his feet. And you can see that he's wearing boots and that he's wearing, um what is it that you call them?
01:01:03
Speaker
Not spats, but like the things that you pull over. Oh, stirrups? Like a stirrup or a gaiter? gaiter. Yeah, because it's meant to look like he's wearing armored boots, but he's just wearing regular boots with black soles, but underneath you can see two stirrups that are white. So whatever he's wearing is a sleeve over his boots. And then you're able to see it.
Closing Thoughts and Next Episode Preview
01:01:28
Speaker
I enjoy that.
01:01:30
Speaker
And he's got like just... it's It's the same, not washed outness, but the same hint of like agedness that is happening to a lot of other costumes with both the red and the white. um And so I'm having more fun looking at those costumes now on IMDb than i was like in the moment because I was just like...
01:01:52
Speaker
in that moment but yeah after that like you said she goes home sings a song do two credits yeah it's and and the credits ended phil laughed because he was like that's a great clean cut where it's just like kind of blurred like it's not even a a hard still it was like a soft focus freeze frame and then we like roll credits wow yeah so you know um eight i've I think that it is worth looking at the costumes, but um it's an interesting version of Alice in Wonderland. It just felt a little long.
01:02:33
Speaker
so It felt long. And so, yeah, if you feel like watching it seconded, watch it for the costumes and then pause Don't necessarily watch it in one full sitting unless you are totally enamored and then by all means go right ahead. yeah um But like it is also very fun to watch the Whoopi Goldberg Cheshire Cat.
01:02:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't know if we mentioned this. We did mention it off air. Off air. This isn't a radio show. Off mic. That it feels like Whoopi Goldberg was paid for like a day and she was like, you can have my face. The rest of it was acted by a different actor in a bodysuit. Which I think is... I think it was an animatronic or a puppet.
01:03:16
Speaker
Was it? I couldn't tell because like the head is bigger. And so for sure the head is like a CG thing. Yeah. So it felt like it was CG'd over something. But yeah, I couldn't tell if it was an actor or an animatronic or... I think the internet told me that is a that that it was a ah Jim Henson creation cat And then they put Whoopi in the makeup and filmed her separately. They like composited the two together on the on the computer. ah And it was like, I wish that they had picked a different approach. I do, too. I even wish that they had had an actor in a bodysuit.
01:04:00
Speaker
Like full on Cats the Musical. like full on Cats the Musical or composited her face over an actor in a bodysuit. Because the way that the body and the face move completely separately strange. They were not talking to me it was it yeah So it's um it's fascinating to revisit some of these scenes. projects that were done when everybody was really excited about using computer graphics, but they hadn't given up on using practical effects. And you've got some kind of some...
01:04:35
Speaker
unholy marriages happened that was one them so there's a lot of gems in this to like look at and it it does feel closer to theater because of of yeah you know what they had to make happen with the budget and the ability that they had which was like a pretty solid budget without knowing what number it is you can see that it's a solid budget They made a lot like this stuff looks like it was made. it looks like a lot of of time and care went into the design and the execution. So it's sort of like, it's really fun to see a time when people were spending a lot of money and money.
01:05:15
Speaker
manpower to make something for like a TV movie as opposed to just doing everything with like computer graphics and everything in post. yeah Yeah. So yeah. And that hopefully we're, we're kind of heading in a direction again where we're blending more things that are real and virtual because like Guillermo, Guillermo del Toro and his studio that he is intending to make. I'm very excited about like, yeah,
01:05:43
Speaker
Just keep keep all the arts alive. Steam. Not just STEM. Steam. Steam. Absolutely. so yeah, this was this was... I do not regret regret... Cut that. I do not regret watching this. um Because it had so much to look at that was really awesome. And like just it it made me feel warm inside to see like so much work done.
01:06:11
Speaker
And to be able to go like, ooh, and you know, like, I'm looking at it on purpose. It's not a distraction. Like, i'm that's why I'm looking at it is because I'm like, let me see this. um And it totally again, another project where it would be really cool to see the stuff up close to see, especially like that the card court.
01:06:29
Speaker
their stuff that's hand done it would be great to see up close yeah and um it probably was really fun to make that's what it looked like yeah it looked like fun to make yeah because no matter what there's nothing boring happening like there's there's a lot of textures layered on top of each other in the real world and in the fantasy world so yes you Good job, everybody. thanks for watching with me, Melinda.
01:06:55
Speaker
Yeah. What are we on to next? What indeed, what indeed. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode. It's another one where it's, you know, kind of like sometimes things hit or miss on like how how dedicated we are to it. And like fantasy is my genre, but sometimes I'm not always the audience for that fantasy.
01:07:16
Speaker
But again, last last button. Watch it if you want in parts and see these costumes and enjoy. i think so. Rev Your Engines, ladies and gentle thems, because Coming Down the the Pike is oh one of another foundation movie for generation, for sure. Labyrinth, Jim Henson's Labyrinth with David Bowie his himself. And but maybe like just something that like really...
01:07:51
Speaker
really shaped some taste for a generation of like morally gray at best characters. But also what a treat. Cause I'm looking forward to talking about puppets and their costumes. Like, holy cow. So it's a Jim Henson. Yay. So yeah, Labyrinth is going to be our next thing and I'm looking forward to it. Yeah.
01:08:22
Speaker
i am you know I think I maybe have seen this movie twice. Maybe. i don't know how many times I've seen it, but it's not more than five, think, throughout my life. So it's not like I'm like a labyrinth diehard. But I did see it when I was a kid, which you did not. You encountered it first as an adult. So there's a slight difference.
01:08:44
Speaker
I'm looking to how that conversation goes. There's a lot of those like 80s fantasy movies that I'm like, ah yeah my nobody showed me that when I was a I had to wait till I was an adult. And then you're like, hit different. It does. But that's fine. can't wait to talk about it. Okay. Thank you so much for listening to this episode, everybody. Bye. Bye.