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191. The Untold Grief of Matrescence and it’s Deep Wisdom with Sarah St. John
52 Plays25 days ago
Sarah St. John is a somatic practitioner, grief advocate, and host of the MotherGrief podcast, where she explores the many losses—both tangible and intangible—that exist within matrescence. She bridges nervous system regulation, embodied grief integration, and holistic healing to support those navigating deep loss.
She is the author of 21 Days of Healing, co-author of Resilience Redefined, and the founder of Empath Coach, a 10-in-1 holistic healer certification program. Her mission is deeply personal, rooted in the loss of both her brothers to suicide and addiction, as well as multiple miscarriages. Now a mother to two little girls, she is leading a movement to support mothers in healing their nervous systems.
Her newest venture, Poppy, is a 6-acre therapeutic flower farm in Loveland, Colorado, dedicated to reimagining how we experience loss and healing.
https://theuncensoredempath.com/mama-nervous-system-reset
https://www.instagram.com/sarahsaintjohn/
Show Highlights Summary:
- Introduction to Sarah St. John: Sarah's work as a somatic practitioner, grief advocate, and host of the MotherGrief podcast.
- Motherhood and Work Balance: Sarah discusses balancing motherhood and being an online entrepreneur, and the importance of being a visible role model for her children.
- Creative Power and Motherhood: How motherhood has shaped Sarah's identity and creativity, and her desire to show her daughters a different path.
- Impact of Motherhood on Personal Identity: The concept of matrescence and its impact on women as Sarah reflects on how each pregnancy and child has transformed her.
- Cultural Perspectives on Motherhood: Exploring how different cultures honor motherhood and the need for more recognition in Western society.
- Navigating Societal Expectations: Discussion on the history of women's roles and the evolving expectations of mothers, and the mental load carried by them.
- Reimagining Gender Roles: Insights from "Fair Play" by Eve Rodski on the mental load carried by women and the need to redistribute household responsibilities.
- Challenges of Modern Motherhood: The overstimulation and dysregulation faced by modern mothers and the importance of addressing the mental load.
- Personal Stories of Loss and Healing: Sarah's deeply personal stories, including the grief associated with her brothers' deaths, an unexpected pregnancy, subsequent abortion, and miscarriages.
- Integrating Grief into Family Life: How Sarah incorporates the memory of her brothers into her daughters' lives and the importance of acknowledging deceased family members.
Contact Kendra Rinaldi https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/
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Transcript
Transformation through Pregnancy
00:00:02
Speaker
I've been pregnant five times and i have two living children and every pregnancy, like every baby, no matter how long I've carried them in my womb has changed me in some way. Like I really just feel like every time again, whether that baby came earth side or not,
00:00:26
Speaker
I changed. And that kind of goes back to that that hard word, matrescence, of like how our journey into motherhood and how each of these little souls really shapes and transforms us.
Exploring Grief and Change
00:00:51
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and
00:01:07
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys.
00:01:19
Speaker
I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right into today's episode.
Introduction to Sarah St. John
00:01:28
Speaker
On today's episode, I am chatting with Sarah St. John. She is a somatic practitioner, grief advocate, and the host of Mother Grief Podcast, where she explores the many losses from tangible and intangible, both tangible and intangible that exist within matrescence, which of course I had to go and look how to even pronounce that word because it's not one that I even know how to pronounce properly. Matrescence, did I say it properly?
00:01:58
Speaker
Yes, you did. me trust and And she's also the author of 21 Days of Healing and the co-author of Resilience Redefined. And we will be talking about her own grief journey, as well as all the different platforms that she's had through the years, either in the topic of grief or other otherwise, and just chatting about life and then just seeing where it goes.
Therapeutic Flower Farm Inspiration
00:02:25
Speaker
So welcome, Sarah. Thank you, Kendra. i just had you on my show and it's so nice to be in other role and just be able to chat with you today. I'm so glad to be here.
00:02:38
Speaker
I know, let's see if you have as much of a challenge as I did on the on the hot seat of being on the other side, on the receiving end of yeah a podcast. I'm like, wait, I'm the one used to asking the questions. It's So something cute that you have on your on your bio is that you are your newest venture is ah Poppy, which is a six acre therapeutic flower farm in Loveland, Colorado.
00:03:04
Speaker
So let's start with that. What what is your, where where you live, we know now Loveland, Colorado, and why it you have this farm and your new venture and we'll kind of dive in. I'd love to share about that. i was This was actually on my heart this morning as I was driving my three-year-old to nature
Reflections on Life and Loss
00:03:23
Speaker
school. And I was thinking about, because I'm coming up on next month is the one-year anniversary of being pregnant. And I got unexpectedly pregnant right after ah pretty major health crisis ah with mold illness that then triggered a lot of my other autoimmunity stuff. I was newly postpartum during this time. and
00:03:50
Speaker
We lost like half of what we owned because of mold. We were out of our house for six weeks and I had an infant and a two year old. And um it really required us to uproot our lives. And we moved back to Colorado where we live now in Loveland.
00:04:08
Speaker
And then, i mean, honestly, I thought I was too sick to have even gotten, be able to get pregnant. um I was having like multiple seizures a day and it was really, really intense.
00:04:23
Speaker
And I hadn't even had a postpartum um period since my second daughter was born. And I started to feel all this anxiety and kind of sense of panic in my body. And finally, I was like, oh my God.
00:04:37
Speaker
I think I'm pregnant. And um sure enough, I was pregnant. And i but again, it was very unexpected, but my husband and I were like, all right, we're going to figure this out. We're going roll with it. Like, this is going to be this beautiful thing to in our life and just into our family.
00:04:59
Speaker
And like thinking about the house we had literally just moved into and not even finished unpacking. I was like, thank God there's another room, you know, like there's space for another baby. and was it a tapper at the house you moved in was temporary as you were trying to figure out everything or was it already permanent home?
00:05:16
Speaker
Newly arrived to Colorado. So it was our permanent house, the house I'm in now. um But we had really just just gotten here. And, um, yeah, just kind of got hit with this news that was very unexpected, but also like fully embraced.
00:05:30
Speaker
And, um, I miscarried only like one to two weeks later. So i it's, it's amazing how like sometimes it's worded like that, you know, that double line, like the double line that you see on your pregnancy test is so real. yeah.
00:05:51
Speaker
And for that like week or two that we thought we were going to have another baby, it felt so real. um and And it was, I mean, that little baby's soul was very much real inside of me. um And I think something within me kind of knew that I probably was going to miscarry. I i had miscarried before um and a more traumatic way. And in this one, it but I just woke up, I just woke up bleeding. And, um,
00:06:21
Speaker
cried a lot of tears. and We hadn't even like told anybody I was pregnant yet. But um I'm answering your question a very roundabout way because I was five weeks pregnant and that the baby was the size of a poppy seed.
00:06:34
Speaker
And so poppy comes from that baby in that week to two of knowing that I was carrying child.
Creating Meaning After Miscarriage
00:06:45
Speaker
the vision that sort of channeled through me through that baby.
00:06:49
Speaker
And so much of life kind of flashed before my eyes and made me think big picture and zoom out and just go like, where are we going? We had just been through this very like crisis time, traumatic time of illness and moved across the country. And it it was just like, what are we going to do from here? Like, what do we want life to actually be like? Yeah.
00:07:12
Speaker
Um, and so that baby really inspired me to build something, to create something that my daughters could be a part of with me.
00:07:23
Speaker
And so we purchased, um, took us about six months to find this property. We closed on November, 2024 on six acres of land in Loveland, Colorado. That's separate from the home that we live in.
00:07:36
Speaker
And we, mostly I, am um going to start a therapeutic flower farm where we grow flowers and have grief ceremonies on the land for women who have experienced miscarriage, pregnancy loss, baby loss, workshops, and so on and so forth. And I have had an online business for eight years, but something about that time of being pregnant and then not being just really made me feel like I want my girls to see me create something beautiful.
00:08:11
Speaker
And could have been any number of things, but that's ended up, that was just like the clearest vision. It was so clear that came through during that time. So it hasn't actually launched yet. We're soft launching in a couple weeks and the flowers will grow.
00:08:26
Speaker
This is our first growing season. So it's all very new. So beautiful and inspiring. And the fact that it was while you were pregnant that you kind of had this vision makes me want to ask, have you experienced this spur of creativity during your pregnancies before that you get
Creativity, Identity, and Priorities
00:08:51
Speaker
these, sometimes people call them downloads during that time? Do you experience...
00:08:57
Speaker
more creativity during pregnancy? I think that each baby, i've been pregnant five times and I have two living children and every pregnancy, yeah like every baby, no matter how long I've carried them in my womb,
00:09:17
Speaker
has changed me in some way. Like, I really just feel like every time again, whether that baby came earth side or not, I changed.
00:09:27
Speaker
And that kind of goes back to that that hard word, matrescence of like, how our journey into motherhood and how each of these little souls really shapes and transforms us in a different way each time.
00:09:42
Speaker
But I absolutely felt creative sparks, identity shifts, um priority changes with every pregnancy that I've had and been through.
00:09:58
Speaker
Thank you. I was thinking as you were sharing that, yeah, that that I've read other blogs of a lot of women, like when they're pregnant, all of a sudden writing books, writing this, like all these things that just start creating. So when you were sharing about Poppy, ah the idea of Poppy coming to you that that that came up.
00:10:19
Speaker
The other thought I was having, you mentioned you wanted to have something that your daughters could see you do, something that is
Balancing Professional Life and Motherhood
00:10:29
Speaker
tangible. Most of the work we do is not tangible, right? They can't see what we do. I remember after my mom died,
00:10:38
Speaker
Asking my kids, I had this realization. I'm like, do my kids even know like what I used to even do? Like, they know my role outside of me being a mom?
00:10:49
Speaker
And all of a sudden I'm like, I had this urge to start looking for cast of for casting for plays because I majored in theater and ended up auditioning and being in a play which I had not acted since I graduated from college. But it came from that thought of I want my kids to see me yeah doing something outside of motherhood.
00:11:13
Speaker
Is that kind of what you felt? Yeah. Yeah. so my two year old was able to articulate at the time like when she was two. We were still living in Michigan.
00:11:26
Speaker
And she basically was like, mommy doesn't work. And I was like, wait, what? Because she was in part-time childcare, so I wasn't working full-time.
00:11:38
Speaker
And I was working inside the home because I am an online entrepreneur. And I took her to school pretty much every day and picked her up from school. And so my boundaries of work were when she was not home.
00:11:53
Speaker
And i really didn't like open my up my computer in front of her. like i just you know ah had a like a pretty strong boundary between like family time and work time. But something activated within me when she was like, yeah, mommy doesn't work. And I was like, wait a second. Like I do at first as a mom, like in this home, this is absolutely like, you know, ah role that I play in and of itself, but also the fact that like,
00:12:20
Speaker
There was so much that I had, like this whole body of work that I had created that she couldn't comprehend, that she had no idea about, that I probably couldn't even really translate for her at the time when she was two.
00:12:32
Speaker
But there was something about her reflecting that back to me um that just made me feel like, I want her to see, i want to be this role model to her.
00:12:43
Speaker
And there's so many different ways that we can experience motherhood, right? And I'm reading um ah new book um called Mother and Untitled right now. And it's all, excuse me, that that's her Instagram. The book is called The Power Pause. And it's about all these different ways that we can sort of transition career during, during motherhood.
00:13:04
Speaker
But I felt like I wanted my kids to see an example of a woman who was in her like creative power and that created things of course, inside the home, but also sort of like outside in the hall of the home and in community. And, um, that just felt really important to me on a personal level that they start to see more of that, um, And that comes back a little bit to like my lineage and my story too, because I am the, there's a couple women in my lineage who have college degrees, but not master's degrees.
00:13:41
Speaker
And I'm the first entrepreneur in my, of a female woman opt entrepreneur in my family. Yet the men in my family, it's like riddled on both sides with like entrepreneurship.
00:13:55
Speaker
And a lot of the women in my family have um chosen to to like stay home. And um i I just grew up feeling like I didn't have an example of like what the other option was. like What if I want
Motherhood and Personal Identity
00:14:10
Speaker
that and this creative outlet? like What would that even look like? Because I saw women just throw themselves into motherhood and sacrifice so much of themselves for motherhood, which was so beneficial in so many ways to the to like the kids. But then there's mental health challenges that have been a result of a lot of that.
00:14:27
Speaker
So I feel like I'm rambling now, but... No, no, no. It's perfect. What you're saying is perfect. So for you, being able to be able to show them, could... You are a mother and you're this. It's not one or the other. And I think that as moms, that's something that...
00:14:48
Speaker
We go through, i don't, there's very few cases in which it's the father having to make that choice. Absolutely. You know, and in in some households, you know, when you're like, okay, we want to have somebody stay at home with the kids, you know, childcare is not an option at this point, either financially or whatever it is, or that you want to be able to have a parent be there to guide your children as they're growing up.
00:15:17
Speaker
it It very rarely is the case that, and we I don't know the statistics, but I do know of people that it's been the father that stays home and the mother is the one that continues the corporate job or whatever job that they have.
00:15:32
Speaker
So... ah But in general, when you're making that choice, if by chance it is going to be one of the parents, the grand majority is the mother that ends up staying.
00:15:43
Speaker
Yet we do not talk about this part as much of what happens. Like I'm in this stage, you're you're in the beginning journey of your two little ones right now, mine are now about to graduate.
00:15:55
Speaker
Then all of a sudden I'm like, Oh my goodness. Now, how do I even start? I last summer, I was like trying to even come up with creating like a resume. And I'm like, how do I even do this? Most of all the stuff I've done pretty much in the past 12 years has been on my own, like, ah you know, and in my own So I'm like, and don't even have like a work reference to put, you know, for the past few years.
00:16:22
Speaker
So then it's easy to fall back to what was what I used to do. And that's what I ended up doing part time was what I used to do, which still brought me a lot of joy. And I wanted to see my kids. see me doing something outside of the home, similar to what you're doing. But we we don't we don't talk about this aspect of the grief of that identity of even when a woman has had a full-on career beforehand, and then all of a sudden there's this huge major shift.
00:16:50
Speaker
let's Let's go into that since you were talking about this and why this podcast that you have that talks about all things grief, Identity is one of these.
00:17:01
Speaker
So yeah dive into a little bit on that topic.
Grieving Identity Loss Pre-Motherhood
00:17:06
Speaker
I grieve my maiden identity and this version of me that existed prior to stepping into motherhood.
00:17:20
Speaker
And I could say that the same is true for the version of me who hadn't experienced traumatic loss and death of her brother, brothers. um But really, like when I've changed so much was after the first loss that like deep loss experience, which was my brother Jordan.
00:17:38
Speaker
And I just feel like there's these, there's bits of us that, um, get left behind as we make these major transitions where we experience these depths of loss in our life.
00:17:49
Speaker
And yeah, that was very true for me in my identity as high achieving, highly ambitious, willing to take risks entrepreneur who my husband worked night shift. So like I had all day to work. I had all the time in the world to just pour myself into the mission behind my business, which um at that time, and and part of this still remains, but ah was really working with highly sensitive and empathic, highly intuitive women in honing in on their intuitive gifts and then also building businesses that um as like healing practitioners.
00:18:31
Speaker
And I loved that work. And i it was easy for me to work all day on on that. And then i held my daughter and in my arms and I didn't want to go back to work, at least not in the capacity that i used to throw myself into it.
00:18:51
Speaker
And honestly, i never thought I would like motherhood as much as I do. did. love motherhood. And it like, yes, there's like a really, really hard days. um I'm not saying it's easy, but I love it.
Motherhood's Impact on Life and Career
00:19:04
Speaker
And i think I surprised myself in my new identity as mother on how much I really wanted to like dedicate myself to this, this role.
00:19:19
Speaker
Uh, and that meant changing the way that my business operated. may, it meant changing certainly the number of hours that i worked. It meant changing the the even type of work that I do because I've changed. I've evolved. I'm made a new through these babies each time. And, um, there's part of me that misses that maiden self and certainly grieves her and her autonomy and her time freedom,
00:19:48
Speaker
But that doesn't mean I want to go back to her. That's kind of the the in-between, like that gray in-between that you speak about, right? Where it's like both and. There's duality here of like missing her and longing for her sometimes, that old identity.
00:20:01
Speaker
But also like having so much peace with that sort of era of me being complete. And now being in this mother era where I'm still discovering and and peeling back the layers of becoming the this identity of mother and and who I am now. So, um yeah, I think this is really common amongst mothers. It plays out differently for each person. But for me, it was like so much identity was wrapped up in entrepreneurship. And now that's changed.
00:20:31
Speaker
There's change. Yeah. And I loved what you said that even though you knew, you thought you knew what your priority was, the moment you held your daughter, it completely changed. And I can relate to that. I used to be a franchise owner and of a children's gym.
00:20:46
Speaker
And when I had my son, I i i i literally had, I had my ah my manager at that time quit the day I actually went into birth. the gut went into birth Yeah. without know Like that morning she had quit. And it's like I'm like, oh my gosh. And so i had like two employees pretty much. I had to even beg somebody that was no longer employed. like, please come back because I'm now...
00:21:09
Speaker
Giving birth. just gave birth right so i um i decided to like really focus those six weeks on being home with my son and bonding and doing all things motherhood and i remember getting an email from one of the moms being, please don't forget, don't forget your first baby, meaning the, the, the facility that I was in. And I was like, I'm like, honestly, right now, that's like the least thing I'm on. Even though that had been where I had poured so much energy in so many years of my life in that moment, my priority changed.
00:21:45
Speaker
come completely. don't think you can really prepare for it either. Like I just didn't know what motherhood was going to be like until I became mother. And I had had like the archetype of mother I had stepped into as like a 12 year old, as the oldest of four kids, as like just this naturally sort of like mirroring mother energy.
00:22:10
Speaker
But then motherhood like in through the birthing process and canal changed me in a whole different way that I don't just like you could have told me all this and I've been like yeah okay whatever like and then it happens and you're like okay like yes this is whole and matrescence is not just like the identity sort of cognitive emotional transition it is also a whole physiological process that our body goes through our brain changes Or hormones do wild things that are so divinely intelligent and intuitive to really reshape and reform us through this big rite of passage that is motherhood that doesn't get, um I think my opinion is it doesn't get enough attention or like reverence, like this pause, this sacredness that it truly holds when you experience it.
00:23:10
Speaker
At least in our in our culture, in our Western culture. Yeah, because I'm sure certain ancient cultures, just like they would probably give certain honor rituals around even when a woman would go in through menses.
00:23:23
Speaker
Yeah, red tents. Yes, like there was like a a ritual around that and becoming a woman. Yeah. i there probably were more rituals and more things like that with motherhood too that we now kind of see oh you're just a mom you know kind of thing or you're just a stay-at-home like these just stuff like no I am that you know it's like it's such a huge yeah huge role and we don't honor it, I think enough in society that therefore then it creates all these can create these um feelings of not enough as us as women, as we're doing that. And that is, I think, what's kind of making us feel this uncertainty or, yeah, ah just confusion as to wait, where do I stand now?
00:24:18
Speaker
Yeah. Can you, let's talk about that. What are your thoughts on that? I'm also reading this book called Fair Play right now by Eve Rodsky. And it is everything I felt in my body the last almost four years that I haven't been able to articulate as well as she can.
00:24:37
Speaker
And it's this, and then like, like get maybe maybe go back a little bit further.
Historical Roles of Women
00:24:43
Speaker
hasn't read about this in the book, but there's like this history of women as housemaker, like homemaker,
00:24:52
Speaker
and Like it wasn't even that long ago that women got the right to vote, that they were able to even have careers, right? And so then we saw um through war times that women entered and filled gaps in the and the workforce and start to um play these more like dual roles where there's this um independence and like freedom to have this identity, this career identity outside of homemaker.
00:25:24
Speaker
But what has kind of carried through, though, is there's there's no lessening of home household tasks. It's just also you work outside the home or maybe inside the home if you like we have a remote job, um especially post-COVID. That's so common now um where we're just expected to de hold long.
00:25:49
Speaker
Freaking much. and the book Fair Play talks about this mental load that we carry as as women um and as and as mothers, where there's just so how much responsibility. There's so much responsibility.
00:26:05
Speaker
She talks about CPE. It's like the conceptualization, the planning and the execution. and to me, that was like this aha moment where I was like, OK, because my husband is a lovely human being.
00:26:18
Speaker
Great dad. pretty good at executing, he really doesn't do the conceptualizing and the planning to get to the point where then he can just execute. like I hold that.
00:26:28
Speaker
And I have a business. And I'm the one who's making sure that the kids take get get to school every day. And and like I'm not saying this because I like hate my husband. I'm saying that this is like a societal thing where the mother holds so much.
00:26:41
Speaker
We've expected so much of the mother as this role that she plays. And yet we haven't taken anything off of her plate. Like, and every household is going to have a different different dynamic. And this book is really trying to like change that paradigm so that we can see something different and moving into the future.
00:27:00
Speaker
But I think that as women ah and as mothers, we just hold a lot more than any human's nervous system was
00:27:13
Speaker
programmed but inherently to hold. And then we have an overstimulating world that also is like more stimulation than what we're ever supposed to hold as well.
00:27:24
Speaker
That to me creates this perfect recipe for just like immense dysregulation in our bodies and burnout and feeling like Like there's just always too much. And ah definite one of the definitions of trauma is too much, too fast, too soon.
00:27:39
Speaker
So I think a lot of mothers enter motherhood and all of a sudden it is too much, too fast, too soon.
Unmet Expectations in Motherhood
00:27:45
Speaker
They're grieving their old selves. They're also grieving a lot of um micro things and intangible things that I think society hasn't even really put a lot of words to that i'm I'm trying to put words to because then we can give ourselves permission to actually grieve um once we identify those things.
00:28:06
Speaker
But until we identify those things, it's like we don't even realize we're experiencing grief. So I'd like for ah more moms to understand like, that's actually grief.
00:28:18
Speaker
And it's okay to feel that way.
00:28:21
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't know I was grieving till when I was in motherhood till years later now that I'm like doing this work. I'm like, Oh, I was grieving. I wasn't just depressed. It was actual full on grief. And yes, acknowledging that grief occurs and taking away the stigma. And you and I had this conversation around was on your podcast, I believe a little bit of that aspect that you feel like you can't voice that you're feeling this way because it's as if you didn't want to have this role. And that's not the case at all.
00:28:53
Speaker
It's just, you're like, I feel this way. I feel like I don't have time for myself. I feel like I don't, I, I, you know, that I don't know who I am in this new role yet. I,
00:29:04
Speaker
could not imagine my life without this being in my life, you know, without this, yeah this soul being in my life. um And, and I think that that's, that's a little bit what's missing. It's more openness of being able to have these vulnerable conversations with others without feeling guilt for feeling certain ways. Yeah. Because guilt is a huge one in our, in motherhood.
00:29:27
Speaker
yeah There's so much comparison. There's so much guilt. There's so much shame. And there's a lot of stigma. And one of the questions I often present to the mother community, but i guess this really applies to all humans, is just like, what...
00:29:45
Speaker
didn't go the way you thought it was going to go. And there's grief in that space between. There's grief in that gap of, i thought motherhood was going to look like this. I thought my baby was going to sleep through the night. I thought that I was going to be able to just go right back into my role as entrepreneur. And I was going to be able to hold it all and have it all and juggle it all and be this superwoman, supermom.
00:30:11
Speaker
And then other things happened and it turned out a different way. I didn't think that I was going to get debilitatingly ill after I had my second daughter, especially having not experienced postpartum anxiety and depression after my first. I thought, oh, I'm in the clear, right?
00:30:26
Speaker
ah right Then we our house was riddled with mold unknowingly, and that made so much there was so much inflammation in my body and my brain that that also created postpartum anxiety and depression.
00:30:38
Speaker
And there's just so many things that, um yeah, you don't you think are going to go one way. And maybe go a different way, like this ultimate reminder that we are not in control, that control is a facade that we use to try and create this false premise of safety in our body.
00:30:57
Speaker
um And yeah, in that space between lives so much grief that then we can feel, to your point. this guilt around, well, if I say this out loud, that means that whoever I'm telling it to is going to think that I um didn't want to have kids or I shouldn't be a mother or I'm an ungrateful mother or i must not love my kids or something like that. And Like, absolutely fucking not. Like, the i love, adore my role as mother and each of my kids, like, just love them so deeply. So, so much that, like, when I became a mother,
00:31:40
Speaker
I became a mother after my both my brothers died. And I was able to see my mother's grief and pain of losing a child in a whole different lens where I was like, oh my gosh, like you I know what this connection feels like. And that was broken twice in in your lifetime.
00:31:58
Speaker
And
00:32:01
Speaker
there's two things can be true. It can be true that you love this so much. It can be true that there's hard days. It can be true that you really miss your old self who used to watch Netflix and eat ice cream and like do whatever she wanted.
00:32:15
Speaker
And you can also love that. Like this morning I woke up with a, a almost four year old's foot, like on my chest. And like, I love that. Like And I love how like she's on my body all the time. I did not like having half of my pillow pretty much on the nightstand because both kids would climb into bed in the middle of the night yeah and I had no space to myself. So my pillow was like half a That part, I was like, no, my sleep is like one of those things that I'm like, gosh, I miss being able to sleep. Yeah, my space and sleeping through the night and things like that.
00:32:50
Speaker
And, you know, even just being able to have these conversations with your partner yeah also feels it's something we don't probably do enough either. Because then, at least for me, like whenever I'd say things like this, or whenever I'd be waiting outside the door, like, like already with like my She was on ready to go to my Zumba class the moment my husband walked in the door so that I could have time for me and I'd be like out the door.
00:33:17
Speaker
though There's this part of like, what? Why are you like fleeing the scene almost like it's it's as if I'm escaping. I'm like, no, you don't. under I need some time. Yeah, for me. And there we had some communication things where like i if I'd be exhausted the next day and kind of feeling like, gosh, but you slept through the night and I was up all the time. You know, these things that also can happen with your partner.
00:33:42
Speaker
as you're mothering and that shift and that dynamic and that change is also really hard. At least it was for me. Again, everybody is so different. and And that was a tough time, I believe, for us too, just navigating these roles. And then he also then feeling guilty then because I'm making him feel guilty because then he slept through the night and I didn't sleep through in the night and yeah I haven't had my me time in here.
Partner Dynamics and Motherhood
00:34:09
Speaker
you know All these things. And so there's so many layers of guilt there' so that can show up that, again, we don't talk enough about. And here we are talking about it in your podcast. And now here we are here. Now, you mentioned your...
00:34:26
Speaker
brothers and you being the older sister, you and I have that in common and you being kind of this role of mothering in that way.
00:34:37
Speaker
And then now actually birthing then your own children and how that was different. So let's talk about the grief associated with the death of your brothers and how that
Early Responsibility and Family Dynamics
00:34:51
Speaker
shifted. I'm completely doing a ah yeah U-turn here.
00:34:54
Speaker
How that completely shifted who you are. And then also how we'll dive into more, but because I want to wind it into then now your motherhood and now parenting and incorporating them into the life of your daughters.
00:35:09
Speaker
But yeah so let's start with that part first of your own grief experience from ah sibling loss. Mm hmm.
00:35:19
Speaker
So my parents got divorced when I was like maybe 12, but my youngest sibling, my sister, Anna, she was probably like five, four.
00:35:32
Speaker
No, we're like nine years apart. So she was like three. And um I think that being a preteen in that environment, then living split time between two homes, um,
00:35:47
Speaker
Created this sense of like, I was this stable, steady sort of person that was always with them. and not that I should have ever been parentified or have had to take on that role. Like, I believe that we should let kids be kids.
00:36:08
Speaker
But I naturally fell into that role. that role of like messenger between the parents of like at my dad's house, making sure that like dinner was cooked and on the table and just a lot of responsibility.
00:36:26
Speaker
And a lot of like my sister would crawl into bed with me. very often because she just felt nervous and she didn't want to sleep alone. And my dad's- And you were her constant. And yeah like you said, you were her constant between the two spaces. Yeah, I was.
00:36:44
Speaker
So there was, yeah, this natural mothering. And then, yeah, our then step, I mean, my stepmom would have never let her come into the bedroom. um Like that would not have been allowed. So like that wasn't safe for her. So she would come and find me and I was a safe place. And especially for her, but I think that so somewhat for like my brothers too, they just weren't like as big of an age gap.
00:37:06
Speaker
um And so I, that's sort of like when I stepped into that, just again, naturally just sort of stepped into it. Didn't, didn't consciously make a decision as a 12 year old that I was going to play that role, but was just put into it in many ways.
00:37:21
Speaker
And then I felt this responsibility for their wellbeing for forever, really. um Just making sure that they were always okay. that um What were the ages of your brothers?
00:37:33
Speaker
So there's- At that time. So you were 12, your sister was My sister's three. And then the boys were in between us. like my brother Jordan was just under two years younger than me. So like 10. And then Joe was like maybe three years younger. So like seven ish. um And yeah, this feeling of responsibility for their wellbeing. And again, that's something that I just feel like I kind of put this pressure on myself. No one ever told me I had to make sure that everyone was going to be okay.
00:38:03
Speaker
I sort of assumed that responsibility and always wanted to make sure that like, I like took my little sister to the mall and we went to the photo booth and I wanted to be like this great big sister to her and give her like one-on-one time. And then My brother, like my brother, Jordan, it was always like he was only he was like in high school when I was in high school and making sure that like he was OK because he was going through a lot of depression. And I would drive him to school and I'd pick my other brother up from school at middle school on the way home. And there was just a lot of caretaking, like a lot of just checking in
00:38:36
Speaker
And so knowing that each of my siblings has had a pretty immense struggle with mental health, um, created anxiety in my body of just like, are they going to be okay? Like, what more can I be doing? What more can I be doing to make sure that they're going to be okay?
00:38:53
Speaker
um And in a lot of ways, I think this is true within many sibling dynamics, regardless of whether your parents are divorced or not. There's kind of the safety of going, i i think, I don't have an old older sibling, but it feels like there's a safety going to an older so sibling to kind of like express something that's hard or challenging versus going to a parent where you might, I don't know, get in trouble or something like that.
00:39:16
Speaker
And so I feel like I was like kind of a sounding board in that sense. And then I was 27 Jordan was 25.
00:39:26
Speaker
twenty five um He had just lived in Chicago for a year, which is where I was living at the time. And so we had this year to like, he was on my kickball team and we would like go out to the bar together and we we shared sort of friends. And um he was finishing up school and ended up moving back home and with my mom.
00:39:48
Speaker
and I was like sad to lose him as like a buddy and in Chicago. um and he came to visit, to visit some friends and I got to go out to dinner with him on like Tuesday night.
00:40:04
Speaker
We went to a pizza place and in Chicago and, um, had a conversation, chatted, gave him a really big hug. He was known for his like tight squeeze hugs. And I was like off to therapy and he was off to a concert. And that was the last time I ever saw him. He, he committed suicide five days later.
00:40:24
Speaker
and um,
00:40:27
Speaker
I didn't see any signs that night that I saw him. i um yeah I wouldn't have guessed that that is what would have happened that Friday night.
00:40:40
Speaker
um And so it became it came as this giant shockwave to my entire nervous system. um And in some ways I felt like I had failed, like failed him as a sister, that I couldn't protect him, that I um that i didn't you know pick up on any of the signs.
00:41:02
Speaker
And that shook me to ah my core where it was like, I feel like my identity literally like crumbled to the ground and i had to pick myself up and like kind of rebuild who I was, how I saw the world, my sense of spirituality, like what I believed and what's important to me, what are my values from scratch.
Navigating Grief in Marriage
00:41:21
Speaker
um And I started to do that. And I started to like, that's when I became an entrepreneur, left my nonprofit job. changed this identity. and um, then I got married to my husband and one week after my wedding, I got a call from my little sister that she had found my brother, Joe, who he was 26 at the time. This is four years later.
00:41:49
Speaker
and she had found him dead and also in my mom's house. And, um, he had, well, we didn't know what happened at the time. Jordan was also in your mom's home too.
00:42:01
Speaker
Yeah. They both died inside of her, inside of her house. And while they were living with her, um, And Joe's death ended up being an accidental overdose.
00:42:11
Speaker
um We knew that he had struggled with drug addiction and been in many rehabs um over the years, but he had been off of heroin for two years and um didn't end up dying from heroin. He, again, I saw him on my wedding and one week later,
00:42:30
Speaker
he He was dead, but it wasn't heroin. It was um some sort of benzo type pill that was laced with fentanyl. And um ah he simply stopped breathing. so there was this identity that was very um want to talk about gray this was very gray zone for me because I was like about I just became a wife and I was like who am i as a wife and then joe died
00:43:02
Speaker
And then COVID hit. So this was the um October 2019. twenty nineteen And so it was just like this big, gray, murky water of loss, of grief, of...
00:43:18
Speaker
Can I even sort of be happy? that that Can I be a happy newlywed? I feel like that kind of got squashed. um And this, again, crumbling of what I thought was true. And again, a sense of like, why did this happen?
00:43:36
Speaker
how how could this happen again in one family? this like shot the shockwave of that, like the likelihood, like what what are the chances, right? Um, and then for many years, uh, this isn't something I speak out loud very often, but my sister's 27 right now.
00:43:56
Speaker
And, um, there was this holding pattern, this tension in my body of her getting past 25 and 26. And she's 27. She actually lives with me currently with her husband. They're just temporarily, they're going to buy their first home soon. But, um,
00:44:18
Speaker
this just like, am i are any of my siblings going to live past
Anxiety Over Siblings' Well-being
00:44:23
Speaker
26? twenty And um you know she has, but we we all have kind of like our our challenges with mental health um for different reasons. But I think that each of these losses has really made me look at the world through a different lens.
00:44:43
Speaker
Um, and motherhood, yeah I know you want to get to motherhood. So it's also like absolutely, impacted motherhood and the way that i the way that I mother.
00:45:01
Speaker
I did want to get to motherhood, but then now I'm like, I have a question regarding, ask all the oh my gosh, Sarah. Yeah. So much. I'm like trying to like, um I mute myself just so that you don't, this that people don't have to hear that. Oh my, oh my.
00:45:18
Speaker
So, so much. I, first off, thank you for sharing all that and and for allowing us as listeners to hold space for you as you share your grief.
00:45:31
Speaker
I was thinking of your marriage, And when you mentioned, you know, when you met, when you married, Jordan had already died. yeah And then a week after you got married, then your brother Joe died. So when you, what's your husband's name? Is that okay? is Andrew. Andrew.
00:45:52
Speaker
When you, when you and Andrew met, had he gotten to meet Jordan before he died? Okay. That's part of our story in a sense. Cause he was with me when i found out that Jordan died.
00:46:03
Speaker
Okay. So he was part of your grief journey at that point. to Okay. That was the part, because I was trying to think, I'm like, is this the first time he had witnessed you go through that, but he'd actually witnessed you go through the grief of Jordan and then of Joe.
00:46:19
Speaker
How did that support and this other being that you're with next to you that might have not experienced similar type of loss before?
00:46:33
Speaker
How was that role of him holding space for you in your grief and this early on in ah in a relationship? Yeah.
Partner Support in Grief
00:46:42
Speaker
Yeah, going be really honest. i He was with me the moment I saw 13 missed calls on my phone.
00:46:51
Speaker
And I was like, oh, my God, what like so every person in my family has called me. What's happening? So I called my dad back and we were in my he wasn't even my boyfriend. and We were kind of just like casually seeing each other. So I think that's important detail, actually.
00:47:04
Speaker
And I called my dad and he said, Jordan's dead. And I remember slamming my hand against Andrew's car window. um we had just been at a yoga event in downtown Chicago and I was completely unfiltered, you know, like grief does that to you. Like there was no withholding of the shock that moved through my body. And so he saw me in a state that no, nobody has ever seen me Um,
00:47:31
Speaker
um And my family's frantically trying to figure out, cause I'm the only person who lives out of state. And it's not even that far, but were like, you need to get on a plane. You need to get, bigger you know, be here soon.
00:47:43
Speaker
And I was like, there's no, no way I'm getting on a plane. because i had a dog and I was like, I'm bringing my dog with me. And so he was like, I'm driving you. So we went and we got my dog and i I don't know, I threw random clothes into a bag and we just drove home to my home, my childhood home as fast as possible.
00:47:59
Speaker
And I was not able to accept or receive his support that he wanted to give to me. I um ah really didn't want it. I really ah really didn't know how to receive it. Like, i just had not had the practice. Like, here, you know, you've just heard sort of part of my story of this, like, making sure everyone's okay. Like, oldest child, eldest daughter.
00:48:23
Speaker
And i remember him like cleaning my mom's house and just trying to find busy work wherever he could to kind of be out of the way, but still like helping. And so he was really good at being helpful, but I wasn't really able to receive it so much so that i we, I was like, I can't be with you. Like, this isn't going to work out.
00:48:44
Speaker
Um, and, And um in that time period, I also got accidentally pregnant with him.
00:48:54
Speaker
And it was a a month um after Jordan died. And my body was... completely consumed with grief.
00:49:06
Speaker
And I, I didn't even have a home. I was like in the middle of i was like moved in with my friend um to be closer to family. um and I had a super unstable job and all these, you know, reasons that I feel like we try and validate why we make the choices that we do. But, but my choice was I had an abortion and, um, we decided not to keep that pregnancy because it was too much, too fast, too soon.
00:49:29
Speaker
It was way too much for my body. And I, I was like angry with him. i was like, I don't like you. Um, he triggered something within me that I wasn't able to receive. And probably like six months later, we ended up getting back together. we ended up moving to Colorado together. we moved in together. we got married. We've had um these four additional pregnancies together. We have two beautiful daughters together.
00:49:53
Speaker
But I would have never guessed I would have ended up with this man at that time. And I think it's taken a lot of inner work on my end to let him in and let him hold me in my grief.
00:50:06
Speaker
Um, because now I think I can do that, but I wasn't able to do that at the time. I didn't have space in my body for any of that. Um, with when Jordan died,
00:50:17
Speaker
Just the part that he was able to see you in probably one of the your most vulnerable and probably quote unquote ugliest stages. And still it turned out to be that this is now your partner. in yeah ah Would you, so are you comfortable with us going into conversation regarding, i this is the first part i hear time I hear regarding your abortion Are you comfortable talking about that and then the miscarriages? Are you okay with that?
00:50:49
Speaker
Yeah, am. Okay. In this aspect of your first pregnancy, having been one that you guys chose to end, terminate, and then how we talked about even just this part, and you did mention five pregnancies, so you did acknowledge in the beginning of conversation. I count that one in numbers. That's exactly...
00:51:09
Speaker
So that's what I wanted to talk about. ah i've had a con I've had conversations. I'll just, well, let me just say, I had a conversation with someone that that that was a decision that was that they made to her first pregnancy and how she didn't even feel that it was okay to honor that life that life because it was some ah a choice that that she made, right?
00:51:39
Speaker
How do you incorporate this life, but that life in your life now?
Complex Grief of Abortion
00:51:48
Speaker
It's definitely a more complex grief.
00:51:50
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And it's a grief that society says that you shouldn't need to grieve or you shouldn't grieve or you're not supposed to grieve because you made that choice. And I'm sure there's people listening who are probably going to turn this off just because I said that I've had an abortion.
00:52:05
Speaker
And that's ok okay. But... um It's come, it it makes it, I don't think it's that we can't or that we shouldn't or that that we don't need to. It's that it's a complex grief that has many layers to it.
00:52:21
Speaker
And I still feel like that pregnancy transformed me in so many ways. Um, I think ultimately in a weird roundabout way, it actually brought my husband and I back together to, to, to end up together.
00:52:38
Speaker
Um, and there's this feeling of like, I met with a ah medium after i made that choice and um she was talking about how, and this, this really feels true in my body, in my story, how our babies, our spirit babies choose us knowing whether they're going to come earth side or not.
00:53:07
Speaker
And not sometimes they come in just be with you for that amount of time and to not be, your earth side child, but to have just experienced, um, being with you or in your body in some way.
00:53:25
Speaker
And I felt like that was really true of that little soul, um, which I, I felt was a girl and I have no proof of that, but, um, that she came in and yeah, almost just like healed my womb space um and that there was sort of this contract of like, we were just going to have a little time together.
00:53:51
Speaker
And that was just how it was. It was always meant to be for that relationship with that baby. um And I feel similarly about my my um other my two miscarriages as well. It's like they came in and we had a little time together and it's still heartbreaking and definitely heartbreaking in a different way because I deeply wanted that um first miscarriage and the second one was unexpected but fully embraced.
00:54:22
Speaker
And so, yeah, the grief is just different. It's not that... there's um more or less, but it's complex and it's different with each one. Thank you. Thank you for, because I don't think we talk enough about that, of the grief that still happens when you're making that choice.
00:54:43
Speaker
Yes. And, and, and like you said, it's not validated because like, well, you chose it. No, but yes, but do you know the circumstances of the why and that choice not being taken just lightly, you know, and, and I, and, and you know, you're now a mother of two having had five pregnancies.
00:55:04
Speaker
There is that aspect of, of loss and that it's okay to to grieve that loss, even if you... It's been more confusing to to grieve. And I meant to say this, actually.
00:55:18
Speaker
part of Part of how I honor that pregnancy and grieve that that baby is simply by not leaving that number out of yes like, and like, I've been pregnant five times.
00:55:31
Speaker
And I certainly don't talk about abortion in the same way or as openly as the way I talk about miscarriage. But... I, I think the bravery just to name it is part of my grieving process. And just knowing that there's certainly going to be judgment around that from certain people, but um that in my body, that felt,
00:55:56
Speaker
um
00:56:00
Speaker
it felt the path that I was in that baby were were meant to take. So, uh, we traveled a little ways together and that was our time together. And of course I questioned like, what would my life be like if I had, you know, I'd made a different decision and it would probably be drastically different.
00:56:21
Speaker
Um, Yeah. but And I'll never I'll never know exactly what that would have looked like. But it's just like thinking about my miscarriage. My my first miscarriage was two months before I got pregnant with my daughter, Emerson, my oldest daughter.
00:56:38
Speaker
And I think, oh, my God, I would have like and Emerson would never have. Yeah, she would. There would have been no space in my womb for another baby. She would not have come down onto this earth if I had not miscarried that other baby.
00:56:52
Speaker
And there's just like these questions we'll never have the answers to. Right. But I think it makes you think about those things a lot. Yeah, but the importance of having these, kind we were talking about just even the importance of talking about guilt within motherhood or things like that and and and grief in motherhood.
00:57:11
Speaker
I think that this topic, as hard as it is, it is So important to be vulnerable. And as you said, some people might have turned it off, but some people are going to listen to this and see themselves in this conversation.
00:57:24
Speaker
And it may be the little bit of information they needed to hear to give them permission to grieve. Just say it out loud. And and to grieve the being that they might have made a choice in the past two Yeah.
00:57:39
Speaker
Not have, you know, you are allowed to grieve yes an abortion, even if it is a choice that you, that you made. And I was in a miscarriage support group um after my most recent miscarriage, just hearing other people speak.
00:57:55
Speaker
And um we don't share stories outside of that space, but what I can share is the facilitator invited us to sort of
00:58:07
Speaker
Acknowledge that there's no timeline of like, like you're, ah maybe you didn't grieve to somebody listening. Maybe you didn't grieve a miscarriage because it was really early on and there's stigma around that. And it's like, you know, old baby was only the size of a poppy seed, right? Or maybe you had an abortion and felt too much guilt and shame to grieve that. Like you can go back 10 years later, you can go. And like that um terminated pregnancy was,
00:58:38
Speaker
um my gosh, probably at least six years before I had my first daughter. It's like there was a big gap in time. um But you can always go back and choose to honor that baby in a certain way. You can choose to name that baby years later.
00:58:56
Speaker
You can choose to have ceremony or ritual around that grief and that loss. Like you can always go back and, or I guess kind of bring forward your grief.
00:59:07
Speaker
And create space for it, especially if it's something that's been repressed for years. There's no like, oh, I didn't do it then. So it's like too late. Like, no, it's not too late. You can always create um that ceremony if you want.
00:59:22
Speaker
Because as we say, a lot of times there's not really a timeline in grief. So therefore you could, we could be grieving someone now that died 20 years ago, 30 years ago, then why not also go back and seeing if by chance there's these wounds that you do not know that have been there that you want to address and and be able to grieve.
00:59:47
Speaker
Now I will ask them the part because I don't want it to just be hanging as if I
Incorporating Late Brothers' Memories
00:59:51
Speaker
asked it. And then I never, how do you incorporate Jordan and Joe into your daughter's lives now?
00:59:58
Speaker
How do you bring them into their lives? Uncle, Uncle Jordan and Uncle Joe. Right. Yeah. We talk about Uncle Jordan and Uncle Joe. We don't act like they didn't die We name them and we, excuse me, at least with my,
01:00:14
Speaker
At least with my three-year-old, she understands what death is. And so we say just very clearly that they died. And we haven't told her how they died. She hasn't asked that question or anything.
01:00:25
Speaker
um And yeah there would definitely be like an age-appropriate way to explain that um for now. But she knows what their picture looks like. And I talk about them. And on some of these days, like birthdays or death anniversaries,
01:00:44
Speaker
we will tell stories about them. And I'll be like, you know, your uncle Jordan used to and be such a silly dancer. And this is like one of his signature dance moves. And I'll show you you, know, his signature dance move. And we just talk about and tell stories about them to the girls. Um, and again, my three-year-old is the one who's going to like comprehend more of that versus my almost two-year-old right now, but we will continue to do that.
01:01:12
Speaker
um And i think the lens in which I see motherhood through is very informed in good and bad ways by having experienced traumatic loss.
01:01:25
Speaker
There is deep-seated anxiety in my body around the fear of dying, the fear of leaving my children, like me dying and leaving my children behind,
01:01:36
Speaker
um there's a fear of something happening to them and losing a child because I've seen a mother and father lose their children. And i I just, I felt that and to an extent in my body. My body has that, that you know body keeps a score, right? Like that memory of what that loss felt like in this fear of something bad happening. So there's anxiety that comes along with the having experienced traumatic loss and then mothering.
01:02:04
Speaker
And then there's also this beauty in really cherishing life and like soaking all the beauty out of life that does exist and wanting to live life fully and impactfully and infusing parts of my brother's spirit into the way I play with my kids and the way that we spend our time together and the way that we yeah just choose to live our life in this kind of wild, beautiful way.
01:02:44
Speaker
So there's there's informing the way I'm mother. And then there's also kind of this like internal programming that I feel like it has because of the trauma of of loss. um And I will say more thing. My three-year-old Emerson is also extremely connected to my brother, Jordan.
01:03:01
Speaker
um She talks to him. She tells me about him, things that i don't know where she gets these things from. she, um, really has, she's told me so many times about how he's her protector and her, her saver, like say S A V E R saver, like he saves her. Um, and that, yeah, he keeps her safe from monsters and she is so in tune with him. And her middle name is Jordan. Um, and then my other daughter's middle name is Joe.
01:03:36
Speaker
ah I just raised my hand instead of unmuting myself. It's your podcast. You can talk whenever you want. I'm like, that just I clicked the raised hand. oh my gosh. I didn't mean to be laughing as I was doing I'm trying to and unmute and then here it's a very deep...
01:03:53
Speaker
I love that both their names are honoring you. There's so many ways in which you can do that. I did not know that information that both their middle names are your brother's name. So a way of honoring them and keeping them, their legacy, not only with their stories, but then the names that they themselves hold. And as they get older, you'll find ways of even sharing more, of course, of the ah about the the reasoning behind their names.
01:04:19
Speaker
Mm-hmm. As we are kind of navigating this conversation and you you and you and i interview in the same way that is just intuitively guided and to see where it goes.
01:04:33
Speaker
And life is that way. We may have a plan and it goes completely a different way. So I might've thought this conversation is going to go in one direction and you might've thought it was going to go and it goes into a different direction. But as we as we start kind of easing out of the conversation,
01:04:49
Speaker
I wanted to ask you in terms of more of like your future plans with your podcast, with Mother Grief podcast and any other upcoming projects you mentioned, your, you know, Poppy the Farm and any other projects you have, as well as sharing how people can get ahold of you and, ah and your podcast.
Future Ventures and Podcast Plans
01:05:11
Speaker
Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for holding space for my grief in this conversation today and all the complex layers that exist within it. I deeply appreciate that.
01:05:21
Speaker
And you're a beautiful interviewer. um people can find me Sarah St. John on Instagram. And that's where I share most of like my personal stuff. And One of the ways to work with me right now is through the MAMA Nervous System Reset, and it utilizes um what's called the Safe and Sound Protocol as a way to, it's an audio listening program with headphones to connect.
01:05:48
Speaker
create safety in our bodies again, send signals of safety, um especially after loss, because we're not getting getting rid of our grief, right? But we can heal from the trauma of loss. We can um find safety in our bodies, even if it feels distant.
01:06:05
Speaker
So I guide people through, um the safe and sound protocol through the mama nervous system reset. And then and a couple short weeks, we're going to have live poppyflowerfarm.com and poppyflowerfarm on Instagram, where people can follow along that journey and It's a therapeutic chloroform that's really going to infuse a lot of grief services and and grief metaphor using nature as this very perfect metaphor for the life death cycle.
01:06:35
Speaker
um Then I have my podcast, Mother Grief, that you can find on all platforms. And I just would love to stay connected to anyone who ah resonated with my story in this conversation today and and um learn from them as well.
01:06:50
Speaker
Thank you, Sarah. I usually end with, is there anything I did not ask you that you want to make sure that you share with the listeners?
01:06:59
Speaker
I don't think so. i think you held such beautiful space for just, um, for grief to be explored in an intuitive, authentic way. um maybe one thing that that comes top to top of mind is just that I would invite and probably people listening to this podcast already know that they're experiencing grief.
01:07:21
Speaker
um But that's something I anchor back into often is just to to really acknowledge how many layers of grief that we experience as humans.
01:07:32
Speaker
And to create more space for it. It's still kind of taboo in our culture and the society. It's, it's a universal experience. Like we all are going to experience death of loved ones and of ourselves, but, um, that's scary to, to think about and to talk about. And so,
01:07:48
Speaker
I think we can ease our nervous systems into more conversation about it and more um embracing of life and glimmers amidst that that something that thing that is kind of scary and uncomfortable.
01:08:00
Speaker
So I just invite people to lean into um all that they're holding, all that they're carrying, and to really honor and acknowledge that.
01:08:10
Speaker
Thank you, Sarah. Again, this was Sarah St. John. Thank you again for being on the podcast, for sharing your story, their story, your brother's story, as well as all these babies' stories too. And we hold space for all of them as well in our inner hearts.
01:08:27
Speaker
And I appreciate you coming on the podcast and sharing. Thank you. Thank you.
01:08:38
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief.
01:08:51
Speaker
If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
01:09:07
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me.
01:09:20
Speaker
And thanks once again for tuning in to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray In Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.