Transcript
Speaker: It never goes away. The grieving, it's different, but it never goes away.
Speaker: And I'm okay with that.
Speaker: When you know someone as long as I knew him, it would be weird if it did go away. Wouldn't that be strange?
Speaker: To love somebody for that long and then to kind of get over it. So I don't expect to get over it. I'm just learning to live with it.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray In Between podcast. This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
Speaker: I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys.
Speaker: I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
Speaker: Today i am honored to have Pamela Blake. She is a PhD with us. as She is also the CEO of Utamazi Inc. She's dedicated to bringing the Isaac Collection, which is a series of novels by her late husband, David Isaac, to readers worldwide.
Speaker: We'll talk about storytelling, legacy, and the journey of publishing his works. Welcome, Pamela. Hey, Kendra. Thanks for having me. Nice to be here.
Speaker: i am glad you are. We were talking a little bit before we started recording in terms of this is the first time you're speaking this morning since it's earlier for you. sorry Sorry.
Speaker: It's fine. We are so honored to have you be with us as early in the morning as it is for you. So you're in California. So tell us a little bit about where it is you live and where you grew up and we'll start that way.
Speaker: I presently live in Huntington Beach, California, which is Southern California, just south of Los Angeles a bit. And I grew up in California, but left with my husband as soon as we were old enough to out on our own. And we vowed never to come back. And yet here we are. Been here for over 20 years. so Where did you leave?
Speaker: Where did you leave when you guys left? We went to Oregon. We love the Pacific Northwest. So we went to Oregon to go to college up there and lived there for a while and got tired of the rain and then moved to Hawaii to do grad school.
Speaker: and came back to the Pacific Northwest and then back down here in California. When I was reading a little bit of your bio and then also David's bio, you're both in physics, correct? That's what you studied.
Speaker: So i I was like, oh, as I was reading, I'm like, maybe they met in college while they were studying. Is that how you guys met or how did you meet? Because you're saying you traveled together as you went to school. So how did you meet?
Speaker: We met in ninth grade history class. And have been together ever since. Wow. We were 14, probably. 13 or 14. How old you are when you're in ninth grade.
Speaker: Little. Wow. So yeah, this is your lifelong companion. So David died suddenly in 2021. And so this is the person you had for your entire life. So you do, you, you don't even know, you only had lived 13 years of your life without him prior to his passing and it's and it's okay.
Speaker: I've got you. Thank you. Sorry. I've got you.
Speaker: It never goes away. The grieving, it's different, but it never goes away.
Speaker: And I'm okay with that.
Speaker: When you know someone as long as I knew him, it would be weird if it did go away. Wouldn't that be strange?
Speaker: To love somebody for that long and then to kind of get over it. So I don't expect to get over it. I'm just learning to live with it.
Speaker: Thank you sharing. Yeah. but it I always say that it doesn't, grief doesn't really go away. It just it changes. It transforms because we are changing and transforming. And so how it how it comes out and how it's expressed may change as we also grow around it. the How do you feel about that that very, ah the the the line, how people always say, time heals.
Speaker: Tell me what you think of that. Well, I don't know healing per se. There's nothing really to heal. know, it's not a wound. It's a loss.
Speaker: And its he's not coming back, so it's going to continue to be a loss. But it's it's changed. My grief has changed. I've learned to adapt. I have resisted removing him from my life. So I still have his clothes up in his closet, you know.
Speaker: But that gives me comfort. It would be weirder to have the house and place that we've lived here front for over 20 years, to have but have him not be part of this place. He's still part of me.
Speaker: and so it would be very strange not to have him here. But I've noticed it. i am I'm sad now because we're talking about it. But i don't I don't have as many moments during the day where I just fall apart, which is good.
Speaker: um I'm letting myself grow into it. learning how to go into it i I love that you shared that you have his clothes because a lot of times people feel this need. Some some people around you some as well, and I want to hear more about your own family dynamics and other if there's other members of the family, may end up pushing you to to do things that you are not ready in your grief for.
Speaker: to do, right? Like for example, sometimes people are like, okay, right away, let's just donate this or right away, let's just do this right away. Let's sell the house right away. Let's do, and there is no hurry or right time or anything. very It's really your time and your process of however it is you choose to, to grieve and mourn.
Speaker: So who are the other members of the family and how has that also been ah part of the journey? It has helped, actually. We don't have children.
Speaker: um i have multiple siblings. I have family with six kids. And because Dave and I met so early, my younger sister I'm very close to, she's 12 years younger than I am She didn't have a time in her life where he wasn't around. She was little and when she first met him. And similarly, my other siblings, they understand.
Speaker: They're not pushing me to... vacate him from my life at all. They miss him too. And he has two sisters who who miss him deeply. He was their older brother. And his two sisters and his various cousins grew up looking up to him.
Speaker: So there's nobody pushing me to get rid of I love it. You have other people supporting you and your in your journey that can relate to what you're going through and support you in that process. so Thank you so much, Pamela, for for sharing that.
Speaker: So you've shared how you guys met, you shared your journey of living in Oregon, living in Hawaii, then 20 years now back in California. Take us into one when did David start writing? Because here you are studying PhD, yet he's writing these novels that have to do with fiction.
Speaker: Was it something he did to de-stress? Was it just something that he did as a hobby? Share about his literary journey, please.
Speaker: Yeah. think that's ah that's a lovely question. David had always wanted to write, even when he was little, when I first met him. I say little, he' was a teenager, but um but he never, he did off and on, he wrote short stories, he wrote various things, but he never really put a concerted effort into it.
Speaker: You know, the stress of trying to do something like that while studying or while working through the career. But we were fortunate enough in the early 2000s that we were in a,
Speaker: financial position where he could write. So he took time off. So he wrote those five novels you know in and a period of time of about six years. And just he just wrote all the time and took it took over his life.
Speaker: But that's that's how he was able to produce those novels. And he had planned on doing others, but then he died. So that was the end of that. This is in the period, what years was it when he was writing?
Speaker: um about 2000 to 29, maybe, writing and rewriting. So the early 2000s. Early to the... And then, so it when I was reading his bio, it said he traveled to a lot of countries. When he was traveling, then it was for his knowledge and in in in physics. Can you tell me what this journey was of his travels?
Speaker: His career, he studied physics as an undergrad and then As his graduate work, he studied ah geography and resource systems, geography in particular.
Speaker: um And he had a chemistry background also. And his travel was all basically for the global energy consulting work that he did. that's, that's what took him all over the moon. That's right. oh that's Okay. So it, it, it now another way that he's traveling with these novels now, because now his books will be read throughout the world. It just continues.
Speaker: So he, he died in 2021. You knew, you know, he had all these novels already written. At what point then in your grief were you ok this has to be something I do.
Speaker: When was that moment of realization that you felt you needed birth, birth these novels to the world? It was very soon i was ah looking for ways to honor him.
Speaker: And I knew, of course, that he had the books. And when he wrote them, self-publishing wasn't really a viable option. you pretty much had to go through a traditional publisher. And he had tried to find an agent and find a publishing house and didn't succeed.
Speaker: they They mostly didn't like that all five books take place immediately. they're They're different genres even. They're not similar at all, except in his writing style. And that's why he stopped writing.
Speaker: he was going to pick it up after he retired, but he was just so discouraged that he yeah wanted to go back to consulting, which was rewarding for him. But after he ah passed away in April of 2021, fell apart for a while. Then I realized I wanted to do something, and his books immediately came to mind.
Speaker: So I tracked down, he had all the files, I dug through and tracked those down. I had never done any self-publishing at all of any sort. So I was starting from zero. I took some training from different organizations to learn how to do it.
Speaker: It's straightforward, but only after you know how to do it, like a lot of things. Um, So yeah, I started right away. And my first thought was to publish them very quickly.
Speaker: But i realized that that started to feel to me like I was just dumping them out there. And I wanted to give them more space. And so I published them gradually over two years. First in early 2023, actually.
Speaker: That is so beautiful. Now you then created your own publishing in order to do it. You published them yourself. You didn't go to someone. So you created Utamazi. And I am curious as to the meaning of that, of the name of your publishing company. And yeah, if you can share what what it means to you and what's the definition. Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you for asking that. It's part of honoring David. His nickname was Bear. He was cuddly and bear-like. um Dematsi is a character in one of his books, in Earthly Vessels, who is a bear god of the Native American Miwok tribe.
Speaker: So I pulled out that character name and and created a small company to to publish David's books under that name. So that because it was tied to the bear can't bear character. that is me Now, you know how you mentioned, as you're saying about the five books and then you also then doing this work, he did part of the work, then you did the other part of the work.
Speaker: These are your children. Yeah. These books, and it's like something you guys work together on. And this is, you know, this is the legacy you're both now leaving to the world, not just him, because you are a huge part of it, too.
Speaker: These are no both of your legacies now. I am part of it. I'm happy to be part of it, not just as publishing them, but one of the mentors that I had as I was learning the self-publishing process, ah Rami Vance, suggested that i tie the books together as the Isaac Collection and write introduction to them.
Speaker: So that's my contribution, and followed later by an afterward at the end of the last one, tying it all together.
Speaker: I'm emotional. It's early for me. Sorry. I'll take a sip of tea. It's okay. So with when you were when you then published it, 2023, you publish it.
Speaker: That process, of course, you're learning. You're learning how to do it. You press publish on the website and that the books are ready to be bought. What were the emotions that came up for you during that process?
Speaker: process and every time that you would release a novel?
Speaker: Well, yeah it's been um ah rewarding. um was gratified to have his books to work on, to not be so bereft that I didn't have anything of him and I can hear his voice in it.
Speaker: um But yeah, you're right, very emotional. I hadn't even published that first time. And the first one I put out there, Tomorrowville, is a science fiction book ah genre.
Speaker: And it's a very straightforward dystopian sci-fi. And that first day that it was out on Amazon, it actually got to number nine in all of Amazon's science fiction category.
Speaker: ephemeral It didn't last very long, but it did very well. And um so that was an amazing emotional time to see his book doing so well. That is fantastic. Congratulations for that. Now, tell us ah more about the characters and who, who what audience is this for? Science fiction, right? Correct? It's fiction or science fiction? Fiction?
Speaker: First one is science. They're all fiction. The first one is certain science fiction. What age group is it more, like, do they have even those statistics of even knowing? And who is the audience?
Speaker: They're written towards a young adult, towards an adult audience. um There is language in all of them, just to varying degrees, sexual acts in all of them to varying degrees.
Speaker: First one, Tomorrowville, not too much of either. So it it goes down into the young adult category also. I think parents would be fine having their kids there reading that one.
Speaker: Which one's the one that speaks more to you of his novels? Which one's the one that you gravitate towards or that when you read it, you felt the most connected to David?
Speaker: the um It's hard to pick a child, you know, but... Yeah, yeah exactly. Well, there you go now. but The second one i I think really is the most resonance for me, the one that I published second, it's called A Map at the Edge.
Speaker: And it's about a teenager and it takes place where we grew up. And it's not autobiographical at all. It's not about David's life or my life, but all the settings are where we grew up, the attitudes, the encounters,
Speaker: it's um It's his lived experience, our lived experience. So that one is the one that I resonate most with. Thank you.
Speaker: Yeah, so the setting in it, it takes you back to some of the memories that you guys had together. Yes. yeah and And we grew up in the 70s, you know, the late 60s, That's when we were teenagers.
Speaker: And it drug, sex and rock and roll, you know. tell us one of the arrivals Tell us one of these wild stories of something in the like, what kind of concerts did you go to? Tell us a memory of the 70s with David.
Speaker: Music was very important to us. Our first date was to an Iron Butterfly concert in a Gata De Vida, if you remember that. how do not. I think they're still touring. and I haven't seen them, but I think that Iron Butterfly is still in some configuration touring.
Speaker: And then we've we've gone to hundreds of concerts just together. that was part of our That was part of our thing is to go listen to music of all sorts.
Speaker: Do you play any instrument or sing? And ah did David? He did. I do not. I'm an audience member. That's my role in the music industry. But that he played the piano.
Speaker: Do you dance? Oh, yeah. There we go. um Yeah, that's my job. He played piano and flute. One of his early career thoughts was that he was going to be a musician.
Speaker: So when he was first studying in college, he studied music and learned to play the piano.
Speaker: it's hard to be a musician. So he migrated away from that. Yet he still ended up doing something in the artistic realm with his writing. Like it was still something he had in him to, to still explore. So even if he went the physics route and not the music route, he still came out with some artistic representation yeah hes out i' as well with, or we, I was just, you know, dancing here, like showing as if you're dancing in the public, how,
Speaker: how how What other ways, because dance sometimes and moving your body is one of the ways you can move grief through us as well. What other ways have you been able to find that work in your grief journey as ways of mourning
Speaker: Nothing as outward as dancing in public, probably just as well. But we have a ah large garden. We both love gardening. and so I've maintained that garden and grown it and kept it as much in his memory as anything, keeping all of the cactus and other plants that he loved.
Speaker: So gardening, and when you're out there, do you listen to music or do you just listen to the sounds of nature? Just nature. I like nature. ah yeah I still go to music concerts, though.
Speaker: When you're going solo, it's hard for me anyway. I'm used to not doing that. So it's always something I force myself to do, partly because I want to keep our life alive. fact, I'm going on Friday to see Bob Dylan and Willie Nelson.
Speaker: ah so Whoa, that is amazing. It's going to be epic, yes. That is going to be epic. So Pamela, with the journey and of grief, a lot of times I've noticed, and sometimes I ask this to the audience, is what beliefs did you grow to the audience, to my guests,
Speaker: What beliefs did you grow up having about death and what happens after we die? And how have those played a part in your journey and have those transformed as you've experience experienced grief for yourself?
Speaker: Um, I grew up in a fairly traditional Christian household. My family, they weren't deep practitioners, but that was the basic belief is that people died and went to heaven.
Speaker: We didn't talk a lot. I pretty positive parents. We didn't talk a lot about people going to hell, the negative side of things. So I, ah grew up with that as an impression, um
Speaker: I first experienced deep grief when my father died when I was 16. and it And I felt him still, still today. and And that's deepened as I've gone through various stages of grief with different people.
Speaker: um My father, ah younger brother, my mother, my sister died in early COVID. She probably had COVID. which was not too long before David passed.
Speaker: And always all of those people are still with me. And that wasn wasn't something we talked about. People died, they went to heaven, you know, end of story, we grieve them for a while and off we go.
Speaker: ah It wasn't quite that, you know, flippant, but but that's what has really changed for me is to realize that he is here. He is here. I dream of him every night.
Speaker: Last night, had great dream of him. I won't describe it to you. but Thank you. and not yeah yeah we' We'll keep that for your other novel, which who knows what genre that novel will be.
Speaker: We'll save that for later. but um You know how my show has the gray in between? Who knows if that's a Fifty Shades of Grey type book that you're trying to save? Yes, very good.
Speaker: Yeah, so it's, so it's wonderful, because he's not gone. and so I don't have to act like he's gone. And, and my, ah my sisters, my siblings dream of him to one of my nieces dreams of him regularly, regularly.
Speaker: So How has that, we because I completely can relate to that, of just that feeling of knowing, of the knowing, based on just how you feel that that energy and that, that.
Speaker: they is still with you. the how it has that knowing shaped your grief? Because you experienced it so young then with your dad dying at when you were 16, you know, David then was by your side too as somebody else that was holding memories of your dad as well, who's now passed, you know, ah so because he had known him for like, what, seven years at least at that point.
Speaker: So how, how is that knowing then, as you said, you you could continue feeling like they're with you because they are in your dreams and in your everyday when you're out in the garden shaped your, your grief. And in those moments of when you feel connected, what are some of these things that you feel as like, aside from sleeping of the connections?
Speaker: It's something I look back on every day. you know I don't have him here as a physical companion any anymore, but I still talk to him. and I've had multiple experiences where I just couldn't figure out how to do something.
Speaker: He was the tool user. you know the garage was his but his territory. I've been multiple times where I've just stood in the garage and said, I need i know I need to do something.
Speaker: Where is that tool? What tool do I need? And it just came to me. It was very odd. One of them was in, one of the tools I wanted was in an obscure place. And I suddenly knew where it was.
Speaker: And I said, thank you. You know, my gosh, you that that is something that happened to me too. When my sister, my sister died when I was 21. She was 18. I, we were at her, is your battery low?
Speaker: It just did like a. Yeah. yeah I need to turn something off. Okay. So we I was in her, in our home in Colombia and I was looking for a key for her desk. I needed to open her desk.
Speaker: I needed to take something. And I literally was like, there was a little box and I had put my hand in it. thinking that's where she had the key and then it wasn't. And then I'm like, Zorana, can you please just help me find that key? Like I need to open this drawer.
Speaker: And i went, my hand just went straight back again to the little box that I had just put. And then I felt the key then. it So it had been there. It it was just, I had not. So the same, this no right away, knowing that this is what you do, but it's, it's this, you do have to ask,
Speaker: sometimes for that guidance and that help and to be able to see it. So the fact that you asked and you had this conversation and that you knew. Now, once you found the tool, did you know how to use it?
Speaker: i did. I knew what I was looking for. I just didn't know where it was. For real, it was a simple tool. um There have been a couple of tools I've had to Google to find out what they even are. so that When you're out in the garden and being in nature, what are some of the the experiences in nature that also make you feel that connection?
Speaker: um Touching the plants that he liked. We have a vegetable garden and flower garden and a cactus garden. and Just handling those plants and putting them into the earth and standing back and looking at what he had started, the garden area that he had started and knowing that it's still here.
Speaker: I feel connected, not just to him, but to the earth as well.
Speaker: Is that the case with your dad as well or with your ah siblings, any other members of the family? Had you found these like ways that they connected differently with you?
Speaker: um With my sister, definitely. she was we were very close. And she died very suddenly, like I said, in early COVID days. And i i dreamt of her also. I feel her um because she's a sibling. i also talk with my other siblings about her. And so we continue to keep her alive.
Speaker: With my father, it was traumatic because he died, and I was grieving, but also my mother was 42. She had six children, ranging in age from 17 to 2, no job and no driver's license.
Speaker: So most of my grief was with her. and as I was the oldest daughter, i was 16, and co-parenting with her. um I won't say it's the reason I didn't want to have children of my own, but i had that experience already. I didn't need to have children because I had experienced my siblings.
Speaker: that That must have been really hard because, like you said, the roles, and this is something that happens with grief, is identity changes too and the roles and how everybody shifts within that.
Speaker: The fact that right away, like you became the co-parent then. At 16, that's a huge responsibility then to have with your, you know, with, with your having taken that role with your mom.
Speaker: And then you also not only lose, lost your dad, but then your mom also lost. changes, right? Because then what did she have to then now all of a sudden start working? If she had been home, like the dynamics of the home changed a lot, right?
Speaker: ah lot. Yeah. She had to, to relearn how to do all those things. When she met my dad, she, she was employed as a secretary. So she had skills. It wasn't like she suddenly was starting from zero, but over the course of having children, she didn't work.
Speaker: And, um, And so she just had to start again. i'm I'm not sure why she didn't have a driver's license, but she had to do all that, you know, to really just go back to living out in the world.
Speaker: it was hard It was hard to watch. And it it definitely affected the family dynamic. It made it harder for my younger siblings. I was already halfway out the house. David and I were 16. We knew we were going to live together.
Speaker: um he was there from as for me as my rock. And so I had a support structure that really she didn't have. She didn't have her person anymore.
Speaker: And it's one thing to say that I was co-parenting, but she couldn't rely on me or my older brother the way she would have with her husband. So that was my first experience with that come complexity of grief and i'm navigating grief.
Speaker: I love the word that you use, complexity, because it is very complex and it's so unique in each of the different circumstances. And it so to say to someone else, oh, I i understand. No, I don't. you know Because again, it is very unique to you, every single one, as you have experienced yourself, that your own grief journey with your dad passing with your sister passing with it is just change is different you've never had a spouse die now you are actually knowing what that feels like with how your mom how it was for your mom you're able to relate in some shape or form to what she went through now that you are a widow yourself so but it's still it's very ah very hard how does that word would actually as I'm saying it how does that word sound to you
Speaker: What does it feel if i when i say when people say it? And right now that I said it, ah just kind of I normally say it with no problem, but for some reason right now I just felt different as I said it. That's very insightful. i i don't use it.
Speaker: and That's what I felt. widow i am i still say we when I talk about Dave and myself. it's not ah It's not a label I've ascribed to myself. I don't mind It doesn't offend me or anything, but but it's not part of my personalization of the grief.
Speaker: It's interesting. Like right away. like i yeah It's like there's something about the conversation and just because of what you were saying regarding you know him still of being here, as I'm saying it, I'm like, wait, this does not seem that it's the right word to use with you.
Speaker: Very insightful.
Speaker: Yeah, that was, you picked up on something or maybe you're psychic. You seem like you might be a little... um and to understand that I'm not going to give up on our life together. I don't need to. I'm fortunate enough that I don't need to suddenly reinvent myself.
Speaker: So much of what I'm doing is continuing the legacy of how he and I lived and getting his books out there. He couldn't continue writing them, so I'm going to pick up. <unk> I've never written fiction, but I'm going to pick up some of the storylines. There's one, the the first one actually, that just is begging for a sequel.
Speaker: And I've had ah family and friends tell me that I've got to write the sequel because they're waiting. Tomorrowland? Is that Tomorrowland? Tomorrowville. Tomorrowville, sorry. Tomorrowville. Tell us more about the characters in Tomorrowville and so that we can know and that that pet listeners can then go to and be awaiting for a sequel written by Pamela Blake.
Speaker: In assistance with David's assistance, because just like he helped you find the tool, he's going to help you write the sequel. So please tell us a little bit about the characters Tomorrowville.
Speaker: The main character is called Toby Simmons. um As David was writing it, he'd we'd called the book Toby because Toby just took over. was like Toby... was really channeling from the future. The the basic plot line is Toby dies in 2008, a stupid accident that he self-inflicted, and wakes up in 2088. He was frozen through various circumstances and was reanimated in 2088. And so the story in in a very different America.
Speaker: ah so it's dystopian science fiction in that it's not an improved upon America. um But Toby was like like channeling David was channeling Toby, and Toby was telling us about what's happening in 2088.
Speaker: And so that's the main character. And it's when you get to the end of the story, you'll you'll want to hear more about Toby. And then Toby, of course, meets with new people and establishes ah um romantic relationship with someone named Nightingale Knight.
Speaker: And she also becomes a character that you'll want to hear more about as in the ultimate sequel. So it's really a romance in many ways between Toby and Knight.
Speaker: And also an exploration of how this, we say a hacker from 2008, confronts this dystopian America in 2088.
Speaker: Now, yeah are there any similarities between Toby and Nightingale you and you can't hear me because i was mute and like i was like but so is are there any similarities between toby and nightingale to you and david I think our romance goes through, he has got a romantic relationship in each of his books.
Speaker: And I think it, it formed the basis for a lot of the relationships in the books that our our romance did that particularly in earthly vessels, um,
Speaker: friends have remarked that just it's the two of us they see us in there so that's the one of the setting that's the one that has the settings of the places you grew up um but earthly vessels is fourth one and it's a um epic fantasy basically so the utamazi character is david and the Oh, that's the bear. That's the bear one. Okay, got it.
Speaker: Okay. So I am looking forward to a in the future, not in 2088, hopefully before that, that you come in and share and share about the book you've written for the sequel.
Speaker: Don't wait till 2088 because then it won't be future anymore. and Right, yeah.
Speaker: ah So that you can come and share with us about this, this sequel. Pamela, I always like to ask people, is there something i have not asked you that you want to make sure you share with the audience, whether it's about, you know, your grief or any other thing that's coming up that you want to share?
Speaker: You know, so many messages. Don't wait to tell somebody you love them. Dave and I were very expressive, so it's not a personal thing. But i I do wish with my sister that I had, we were close, but even so, I wish I had expressed that to her more often, just to leave that with her.
Speaker: Um... And don't be afraid to tell your story. I've been very grateful to have David's stories to tell. And i thank you so much for letting me talk with you and your audience about our story together.
Speaker: and Because I've learned so much about self-publishing, I'm going to put together my experiences just to write down what I've done and share that with other people might accelerate their process if they find themselves here.
Speaker: Just a simple guidebook to say, Hey, look, here's some stuff you might want want to have known. i love that. And who knows if you might be able to even intertwine the self-publishing story of writing about self-publishing with your grief journey intertwined so that that way,
Speaker: It's, you know, that way you're also able to to bring bring that up to and within it. Because when you have a big enough why, which it is what you had, it's like you figure it out.
Speaker: You figure it out. I didn't know how to do a podcast when I started podcast. It's been five years since I've had a podcast. I didn't know make a website, but I made it. you know It's like you you just figure it out somehow as you go along. Don't let the not knowing of how to do something to stop you and find what it is this that you have that's a driving force that will take you through it And and they will it will come as it has with Uttamatsi and with everything else that you will be able to to bring to the world. I'm so excited to to to see that. Thank you.
Speaker: Pamela, I'm so grateful that you were able to share your story, share about David. Thank you for going along this journey of this conversation with me. I know that the the emotions were there and that's they're beautiful, all of them.
Speaker: the tears, the love. It's beautiful to to see and witness that. So thank you for allowing me to be part of your grief journey as well.
Speaker: And again, this was Pamela Blake with Utamazi. And you can, I'll be sharing the links below so that you can see how you can access the Isaac collection and start your own reading journey and be looking forward to the sequel.
Speaker: The other, the sixth child, the sixth child will come soon. Thank you, Pamela. Thank you, Kendra. Appreciate you
Speaker: Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief.
Speaker: If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
Speaker: Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me.
Speaker: And thanks once again for tuning in to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray In Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.
