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198. A Journey of Grief, Identity, and Finding Meaning with Jaya Saxena
44 Plays5 days ago
Jaya Saxena is a devoted mother of two spirited girls, a champion of inclusion, and an aspiring death doula. Her journey through grief began in 2002 with the profound loss of her mother, a pivotal moment that shaped her understanding of life after loss.
In recent years, particularly during the Covid pandemic, Jaya’s view on grief has deepened. She recognizes that loss transcends the death of loved ones; it encompasses the loss of friendships, health, livelihoods, and even the versions of ourselves we leave behind. This broader perspective has informed her approach to navigating life’s challenges.
Professionally, Jaya serves as an inclusion strategist, leveraging nearly 20 years of advocacy and professional development experience. She is passionate about the intersection of grief and identity, believing that it can lead to feelings of marginalization. Jaya advocates for greater empathy and compassion in both personal and professional realms, emphasizing the need to create space for grief in our conversations at work and in everyday life.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayasaxena/
Instagram: @being.jaya
Show Highlights:
- Exploring Grief Through Conversation: Jaya reflects on her reluctance yet yearning to share her experience with grief and the importance of creating spaces for open dialogue.
- Family and Cultural Legacy: Jaya recounts her parents' immigrant journey to the U.S., navigating dual cultures, and the values she strives to instill in her daughters while honoring her mother’s memory.
- The Impact of Illness and Loss: Jaya shares memories of her mother, who lived with ulcerative colitis, and the transformative year she spent with her during her health's decline, leading up to her passing in 2002.
- Marking Milestones After Loss: Jaya discusses the emotional weight of milestones without her mother present and how these moments, including becoming a mother, continue to shape her grief journey.
- Transitions and Identity: Reflecting on motherhood and life changes, Jaya speaks about the shedding of one identity for another and the evolving nature of grief through life’s transitions.
- Curiosity About Death and Becoming a Death Doula: Jaya shares her deep fascination with death, her journey toward understanding it, and her inspiration to train as a death doula, finding beauty in the process of transitioning out of life.
- Broader Perspectives on Grief: Jaya broadens the lens on grief, discussing its manifestation beyond the loss of loved ones to include identity shifts, workplace changes, and friendships, encouraging empathy and support for shared experiences.
Contact Kendra Rinaldi to be a guest on the podccast or for infroamtion about coaching with her.
Recommended
Transcript
Gifts from Grief: Empathy and Compassion
00:00:01
Speaker
it It makes me think of, in an odd way, the gifts that my mom's death gave me. And I think one of those gifts is this ability to understand that people all have stories.
00:00:15
Speaker
And often what we see on the outside is not what's really going on. So to not judge, to have more empathy, to have more compassion,
00:00:27
Speaker
I don't, again, I think those are all things that her passing has allowed me to develop more for myself.
Podcast Introduction: Exploring Grief and Transitions
00:00:39
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:03
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys.
00:01:14
Speaker
I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host.
Guest Introduction: Jaya Seksena's Journey with Grief
00:01:17
Speaker
Now, let's dive right into today's episode.
00:01:24
Speaker
I am chatting with Jaya Seksena today. She is a devoted mother of two, an inclusion strategist, and she has nearly 20 years of professional experience.
00:01:35
Speaker
And she is also an aspiring death doula. So we will be talking about her own grief experiences after the passing of her mother when she was in her 20s, when Jaya was in her twenty s and other types of grief that she's experienced in her life, which don't include death, which you guys all know when you're listening to this that I do mention that often and a lot in my conversations is that grief does not only happen when we are grieving somebody's passing, but it can happen in any major change in our lives.
Finding Spaces to Discuss Grief
00:02:12
Speaker
So Jaya, welcome. Welcome.
00:02:14
Speaker
Thank you, Kendra. I really appreciate the opportunity to be in conversation with you and just truly grateful for the space that you have created with your podcast to have these conversations.
00:02:28
Speaker
Well, I am so glad that you're here and that you found the podcast and reached out to be on the show. Curious, how long have you been searching? I know your mom passed many years ago, but how long have you been searching she for spaces that have to do with podcasts and listening podcasts and also in this aspiring world now of being a death doula?
00:02:51
Speaker
You know, that's such an interesting question because I think I have been reluctant to talk about my experience with grief, yet at the same time, I've been craving the opportunity to talk about it. It's sort of this both and even today being a little bit, sort of having a little bit of nervous, anxious energy around talking about the experience.
00:03:17
Speaker
but at the same time recognizing how important it is to share our stories and really wanting that space.
Balancing Indian Heritage and American Culture
00:03:24
Speaker
And so probably within the past two, three years, I've been very intentionally looking out for spaces where I could um be in conversation with others about the experience of grief.
00:03:36
Speaker
And I'm so pleased that I came across the work that you do. Thank you for sharing that. Yes, it's it's interesting because even as you're saying this, you're your mom passed in your 20s when you were in college in law school, correct? So you're about to start in law school. you have Yeah, right before law school. And we're going to that.
00:03:57
Speaker
And it's here. don't want to age you unless you're okay with saying how many. but Okay. So the... I'm 47 as of this month.
00:04:08
Speaker
Yay. Okay. So you're 47 this month. So 20 years later, pretty much, is that then you're like more into the searching of this ah grief journey. And I love that you're sharing this because a lot of times people think that when grief happens, it's like that first week, that first month, that first year, that first this of without, you know, with our person, but we don't realize that these feelings of grief can come later on. And in your experience, we will talk also about how it was
00:04:42
Speaker
being a mother without your mother present and how that brought up as well. So that's kind of just so that the audience gets a taste of where we're going with the conversation, as well as the other types of grief, meaning like the identity component of the before your mom passed and after and other other aspects regarding even motherhood.
00:05:03
Speaker
So let's start with you. Tell us about your upbringing. Where did you grow up? a little bit of your family dynamics, your siblings, and more about your dear mom as well? Oh, thank you for that question. So my parents um had an and arranged marriage.
00:05:20
Speaker
We are Indian. um They were born and raised in India. And then my sister and I were born here in the United States. They had an arranged marriage and then immigrated to the U.S. in the 70s.
00:05:32
Speaker
And they, as many immigrant families, i think wanted the best for their family, the best for their children. And they made tremendous sacrifices two um to create a better life for my sister and I. So my older, I have an older sister. She was born in California.
00:05:51
Speaker
and then they literally packed all of their belongings on top of this tiny car and drove across the country, eventually landing in New Jersey, which is where I was born.
00:06:02
Speaker
And then we made our way to Washington, D.C., which is where I have where I wasn't born, but where i have been raised, you know, now have my family. i left for a number of years for school and education and then returned.
00:06:19
Speaker
And so Grew up here. By the time I hit high school, I think I was really ready to explore my independence. And I did decide to leave for college and law school, returning back in 2005.
00:06:32
Speaker
And so I think the the piece that really is so important to me is their immigrant story.
Mother's Battle with Illness and Lasting Strength
00:06:39
Speaker
and the experience I had growing up navigating two cultures, two traditions, two worlds essentially with their um sort of values and what was important to them from a heritage cultural perspective but then growing up here in the U.S.
00:06:57
Speaker
So you're first generation. You are first generation. yeah Now, right have interested interested right before we got on a podcast, I was exercising and watching a show. And the show, i was ah it's a makeover show, like a house makeover show.
00:07:12
Speaker
It's called Revealed, something like that. There's just a little plug in there. But the designer likes to include heritage components in the designs of like her home. And the home that she was designing was actually an Indian family, first generation. So I was like, oh, interesting like as you're talking about this.
00:07:30
Speaker
So how was it for you to incorporate? Because it these character the guests in that show, like they were saying how for them, they tended to be not wanting to be proud of their heritage when they moved here.
00:07:44
Speaker
Well, but no, they were born here, but they were kind of, and now as adults and raising kids, they want to make sure that their children know about their heritage. So how was it for you being first generation American with incorporating your culture from your parents and that, and and then has that shifted through the years being a mom?
00:08:07
Speaker
Yes. Well, so I think growing up, their commitment um was to their country of origin, so to India. And a lot of the values that we were raised with were hard work, being resourceful in order to be successful. ah And yet at the same time, when I was younger, especially as a child and in my teenage years, we all know how those years are or can be for young girls.
00:08:34
Speaker
I really wanted to fit in. And so on the one hand, you know, there are the i remember going to um the beach and packing a picnic basket with our family that was full of Indian food. And my mom would be sitting on the beach in her sari versus my girlfriends having sleepovers and trying out for the cheerleading squad and wearing the latest brand. So it was sort of this, where is it that I fit in? Where do I belong?
00:08:59
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And i don't think it was until later in life where I really started to appreciate the traditions and the values to the point now, as you said, I have two young daughters. One is just turned 12. The other just turned eight.
00:09:14
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And I worry that we with each generation, we're moving farther and farther away from our countries of origin. And so i think we do the best we can to instill the values. For me, it's the values I think that are most critical so that they grow up understanding where they've come from.
Spiritual Reflections on Mother's Passing after 9/11
00:09:35
Speaker
I love that. And because now to like those values also tie you to your mom as well. yeah Right. So it's like a ah way of also keeping her memory alive through them as you incorporate that into your upbringing with your mom. It's a way of bringing her into their life as well.
00:09:54
Speaker
Absolutely. I often think about, I mean, she's obviously would be their grandmother is their grandmother. And I think about how all of her love for them is channeled through me and everything that she could have or would have provided for them. i am that mechanism, you know, for it to get.
00:10:13
Speaker
Yes. It's you're that vessel. Plus I always say this to other people. I mean, I, ah now have my kids, my kids did meet my mom before she died, but the the parts of who we are we are those little bits of pieces of our mothers as well. So like you said, it's not only the channeling the love because of whatever our Believes maybe even of just that energies component, but just even just who we are are pieces of our mother. So they are getting to know them through us as well.
00:10:44
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. Yes. Now, go let's go back to your 20s. You had finished your um undergrad. You're about to go to go to law school.
00:10:57
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Take us into that time period of your life, please. So my mom had a chronic illness
Varied Grieving Processes within a Family
00:11:03
Speaker
for that she was diagnosed with when she was in her early 30s called ulcerative colitis.
00:11:09
Speaker
And so it was something that she had she and she managed for quite some time. um so And I vaguely remember growing up that for the most part, I felt insulated from her illness.
00:11:24
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There were days when I would come home and I'd find her, you know, having come home from work early and saying that her tummy was hurting her or if she had really spicy food, she would not feel well. But for the most part, my memories of her were this, you know, strong,
00:11:42
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independent physician who was somehow magically balancing being a devoted mother and wife with being this incredible professional, giving back to her community.
00:11:54
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So all of the things I remember about her um are all so beautiful and wonderful. And it's very, I have to almost search for
Navigating Law School with Grief Counseling
00:12:03
Speaker
the memories of when she wasn't well.
00:12:06
Speaker
And so she lived with that for many, many years. And it really wasn't until i had graduated from college i was sort of i was searching for what i was going to do what i wanted to be when i grew up and i ended up returning to dc for a year which now in hindsight was a gift because that was a year I was home with her while her health really started to deteriorate.
00:12:37
Speaker
At the time I was wallowing in my, you know, what am I doing? I have a college degree and working at a gym. That's what I was a receptionist at a gym of all things after you finish college.
00:12:48
Speaker
And yet I was with her, which was something that's priceless. And so That year I spent with her and over time, this was now 2020, I graduated 2000. I spent an extra year working near my university. So this is now fall of 2021.
00:13:09
Speaker
And that's when it real, her health really started. Fall of 2001. 2001. so sorry. two thousand one so sorry We're like We're like, wait, in the and then to Okay. i know its you yeah it's crazy that we've lived all these decades, right? So what's really striking to me was that
00:13:31
Speaker
september eleven two thousand one june two thousand two she died and
Life Lessons from Grief: Empathy and Hidden Stories
00:13:38
Speaker
it seems strange to say this, but I remember thinking at the time, because there were so many lives lost in nine eleven that she was needed to help all sort of welcome all of the countless individuals who had lost their lives from the terrorist attacks, that somehow she was needed more than she was needed here.
00:14:02
Speaker
I remember distinctly thinking that because it was only, what, eight, nine months after 9-11.
00:14:12
Speaker
that's It's so interesting how each of us finds a way in some shape or form to bring us a sense of meaning or comfort in these type of moments, right? A lot of us end up attaching ourselves to something because it helps us in that process. So I love that you found in your twenty s a way of kind of easing your, your soul of that, of that pain by making this, this beautiful way of seeing her as this physician.
00:14:44
Speaker
That's going to be know why that no was needed. that She was were suffering and she was always helping people. so Some higher spirit was saying, we need her here. That's so beautiful that you, that you made that.
00:14:58
Speaker
Now, so this is in June. Then you were about to then go back, go then into college, then that fall. So end of August, September.
00:15:09
Speaker
It was, was that in, was that in your same city or in another city where you went to law school? So June of 2000, it was June 2nd. 2002? Yes. 2002. Yes. Okay. Okay.
00:15:20
Speaker
in two thousand and two yeah two thousand and two yeah okay Forgive me if I keep saying the wrong dates. June 2nd, 2002, my sister had
Living Milestones Without Mother
00:15:30
Speaker
gotten married in April.
00:15:32
Speaker
She was released from the hospital to attend my sister's wedding where hundreds, it was a traditional Indian wedding, hundreds of people from around the world came for this wedding. And I remember she was in a wheelchair and I wheeled her around And it, again, to make meaning of it, like she was meant to see all of these loved ones and friends before she transitioned.
00:15:55
Speaker
And so she died, which was, as I was thinking about this conversation, I mean, we make meaning of all of these experiences, but the pain of it, even 20 plus years eight later, is unimaginable.
00:16:13
Speaker
And then, yes, so after that happened, my sister goes off to New York to do residency. She followed in my mom's steps step footsteps and actually became a pediat ah a pediatrician, just like my mother.
00:16:27
Speaker
I leave to start law school in North Carolina, where I knew no one. starting over and my dad is left all alone here in DC. And again, it was something that I don't think I really understood appreciated how each of us experienced our own grief at the time in different ways.
00:16:48
Speaker
I mean, for a decade, my dad was alone and I was also alone and my sister was building her career and family. And we were all experiencing it in so many different ways that I don't think we ever really acknowledged or appreciated how we were all grieving.
Reflections on Mortality and Age
00:17:08
Speaker
Would it come up in conversations when you guys would talk on the phone? Do you remember like when you would call your dad to check in? Do you know if it was something that you'd even share your emotions around it?
00:17:18
Speaker
You know, it's so interesting. I often think about memories and I get so frustrated with myself because at my memory, I'm also 47 going through perimenopause.
00:17:30
Speaker
i' i'm i'm I'm already in the, I've already hit my, yeah, I'm 49 and I've already yeah entered.
00:17:40
Speaker
So I hear you. who I'm always searching for memories. And a couple of years ago, I think I told my sister how frustrating it is because there's so much I don't remember. And she told me. It's okay, memories will fade, but you'll always remember the feelings that you had which is my only solace because I do get frustrated that I can't remember details. It's like little snippets. So even conversations, no. I mean, we really didn't talk about it a whole lot, especially early on in the first few years.
00:18:12
Speaker
My sister and I would sometimes, you know, check in about it. I think I probably talked about it more with her. But it was just not discussed. And that's even today, we don't talk about these experiences. Is it uncommon to talk, like culturally too, is it something that is just not, like in general, people don't talk about their feelings or their emotions or when things are not going, let's say
Inspiration to Become a Death Doula
00:18:40
Speaker
as planned? Is it culturally something you don't do?
00:18:43
Speaker
think that there's certainly a component of that, right? Of, of, not wanting to um be negative, ah you know, and or burden somebody art and burden um yes or burden someone or this notion that it's been so much time.
00:18:58
Speaker
Why would it even, you know, i think there's, there's absolutely components of this. I think a lot of times early on, people just don't even know what to say to you or how to respond.
00:19:09
Speaker
So it's just silence and, um But yeah, we just we didn't talk about it nearly as much. I think over the years, we've we definitely talked about it more. But but not back then. Not then.
00:19:22
Speaker
When you were in college, then you're here experiencing your grief of your mom's passing. this law and mad Law school. Law school. How what did you use? What were your tools then? Do you remember that? Like, how did you like I'm a verbal processor. I talk a lot.
00:19:39
Speaker
Of course, hello. Why have a podcast? um So I might share with friends or, so you know, like talk about things of my emotions and things like that. And but what did you do? Do you remember?
00:19:53
Speaker
i do. I do. So I get to North Carolina. I had no idea what law school was really about. i My first year, I felt it was a blur.
00:20:06
Speaker
I very much remember feeling like I was just going through the motions, but I wasn't really present. And that was reflected in how I did that first year.
00:20:18
Speaker
I did end up going finding this grief counseling group. that i would I went to. And it was at this beautiful building with a garden outside. It was very peaceful. And I remember I would even go there occasionally when we weren't meeting just because I found peace there. And I remember walking in there was one girl my age, she was early twenty s And then everyone else, it was all of people who had lost their mother. Everyone else was, their mothers were like 80, 90 years old
00:20:52
Speaker
And so I remember this one young woman and i clung to each other because we would sit in these sessions where, and again, this is not about comparing grief, but we're in our early 20s and people were saying, you know, my mom lived a full life or she was 90 or she was 80.
00:21:11
Speaker
And our mothers were in their early forty fifty s And so I did do that. And I do think I found solace
Grief in Life Transitions Beyond Death
00:21:18
Speaker
in her because she was my age. We were experiencing similar things and that really, really helped.
00:21:27
Speaker
So yes, that was my main resource. Probably my only resource was that grief therapy group. And I don't know what would have happened had I not had that as a resource.
00:21:39
Speaker
ah You well, ah well first year you had community, you had someone else that could relate to your grief. Because that's the thing too, we feel so alone. And a lot of times not knowing whether what we are thinking, feeling, going through, like, like you said, kind of going through life that first year,
00:22:00
Speaker
dot even like a zombie kind of, right? Like just going through the motions that people around us don't so get it, right? if when we're going So to find somebody else that got it or, you know, that was so important. So I'm so glad you had that.
00:22:16
Speaker
Well, because I remember feeling like I i was looking at the world with through a different lens. You know, I would hear my classmates stressing about not having done their reading for class.
00:22:29
Speaker
And I just couldn't comprehend or relate. So I actually had a very hard time relating to people that first year. I don't I didn't really build
Recognizing and Supporting Grief in the Workplace
00:22:38
Speaker
strong friendships until my second and third years.
00:22:40
Speaker
I just could the relatability just wasn't there. As you're saying that, it reminds me of my own story because my my sister died when I was 21. And so going and I was starting, um had i already started that call? I'm trying to think if I, I know it was going to be my first semester at a new university. So same, and it was just changing, you know, universities.
00:23:04
Speaker
But that feeling of like, I don't, people don't even know what you're walking through. And that, but that concept at such a young age, just like similar to you, you know, 24, I was 21 when I had that.
00:23:17
Speaker
It's this aspect of like empathy of everyone around, because if I'm going through this and I'm walking, who else around me is also experiencing something hard, you know, like we don't know, we don't,
00:23:33
Speaker
No. And so having more empathy of how sometimes people react when people respond negatively at a grocery store, like, or you know, people that are helping you in retail or things and like you do not know what everybody is going through and how it is that they behave because of these. Yeah. not only were the Yeah, no, it it makes me think of, in an odd way, the gifts that my mom's death gave me.
00:24:01
Speaker
And I think one of those gifts is this ability to understand that people all have stories. And often what we see on the outside is not what's really going on.
00:24:15
Speaker
So to not judge, to have more empathy, to have more compassion, I don't, again, I think those are all things that her passing has allowed me to develop more for myself and others.
00:24:31
Speaker
Yeah, it just changed. Like you said, it changes the lens through which you see the world. And like even you said, the priorities you have in your life just completely shift. Thank you for sharing that, then those aspects of the gift. And it's so hard sometimes to like say it because when you say, even just with the name of this podcast, with grief, gratitude component of it, it's that it's not that you would want this to happen in order to, it's not ever that. It's that...
00:25:00
Speaker
this happened, now I am this, or now I have this, now I have these gifts, it doesn't mean you would have not wanted it not to, you know what I mean? Of course.
00:25:11
Speaker
Right? it' Absolutely. Absolutely. That's exactly right. Yeah. So yeah, it's always good to see it in that perspective. So tell us now, years later, you getting married or however it was that you, you know, came to now be a mom. Tell us that journey and how that impacted your grief then.
00:25:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I, I think it's really hard when you're young to imagine your life without a mother. You know, there's so many milestones and moments of life. And I'm lucky to have had her for 24 years.
00:25:55
Speaker
I really feel for young children who lose ah parent even earlier in life. Because for me, you know, even graduating law school was so, I was so proud.
00:26:08
Speaker
She was not there in the moment physically to celebrate. But the fact that I got through, i just that she wasn't there for it. And yet I was so proud that I was able to do it.
00:26:21
Speaker
And any other major milestone, right? Like when you have when you're a young woman, you're thinking about your wedding or you're thinking about having children, ah mother, a grandmother figure. I mean, it's really at least for me, it was very hard to imagine anything without her.
00:26:41
Speaker
and
00:26:43
Speaker
Yes, I mean, e so for many, many years, I couldn't fathom celebrating Mother's Day. You know, when you walk through the aisles and all the hallmark stores, I mean, even to this day, it makes me cringe just a little.
00:26:59
Speaker
um The dates, I think I was telling you and you know before this podcast that dates matter to me in a way that they never did before. Her birthday, um the day that she died, the day I become 54, which will be in seven years, which seems like nothing.
00:27:21
Speaker
ah So all these milestones, I think for me, what What changed was when I had my daughters and I, even though they don't have a grandmother physically present in her, I know she's there. And like I said earlier, I i channel all the love and everything she would give them through.
00:27:44
Speaker
I'm the vessel for that. I love that word.
00:27:48
Speaker
But it's been, it's hard. It's hard going through anything major in life. without somebody who is a loved one and in my case you know somebody who was just so influential and and impactful for me so it's been a journey right i think these are all journeys and i even think about um you know i hope i get to be a grandmother and i hope i live long enough to be that for my children should they have kids But I think any milestone, it just hits differently when you don't have someone like that there physically.
00:28:28
Speaker
But you're saying about milestones. I think of something and I was just actually doing the math here with yours because i I don't know if this, do you think of the, how many, because this was for me when I had lived more than the 18 years that my sister was with me when I had already exceeded the 18 years of her not.
00:28:46
Speaker
Do you feel that way? Because it's been 23 years for you. So 24, right? So now I'm 47. 23. You're about 24. so twenty need three ay that you're about to be traveled I've lived without her, I think, the same, if not more than I had her.
00:29:00
Speaker
Right? No, I think it's just, no, because let's see, 47 minus 24. No, you have one more year before it's 24 years. So it will be exactly a midpoint when you turn 48 of your midpoint of your life in which you've lived the same amount of time without yes your mom than with her.
00:29:18
Speaker
And those are the kind of things that just like, Yeah. So you get it with your sister. I get it. It's these dates. You know? I get it. Yes. I get it.
00:29:29
Speaker
With my mom, I get it. Well, I get that part. It's not because hers is more recent. I get the part of thinking, like lately I've been thinking, oh my gosh, my mom was my age right now when I got married.
00:29:40
Speaker
You know, like those kind of things. And so, yes, as my mom died in her early 60s, you know, I'm about to enter 50s. So I'm like 12 years away from when. you know So, yes.
00:29:52
Speaker
All these things we do, we do mark. I think that happens to everybody. I'm curious now, people listening to this podcast, if that's your case, please email me and tell me if that's the case too for you. Like, do you, if you do this, what we're, what Jaya and I do, like of comparing, because it is so interesting how our money works. I turn 48 years.
00:30:13
Speaker
Sorry, I turned 47 this past, on April 1st, so two weeks ago. And it struck me. I kept thinking, wow, if I knew I only had seven more years left, because that's when she would die, right? 54.
00:30:26
Speaker
How little that is. You know, how little, if I knew that I only had seven years, like what would, actually, I thought about i said, what would I do differently? What would I do differently now?
00:30:38
Speaker
What would you do differently? oh my gosh. That is a really good question. That's a loaded, loaded question. I might have to sit with that one. because yeah No, because we it's so... I think we should all ask ourselves, right? Exactly.
00:30:58
Speaker
Yeah. Because it's like, how would we even live today if we knew this was, you know, it's not. And that's the thing. We all literally are living on borrowed time. We really do not know at all.
00:31:12
Speaker
So why is it that we take each day for granted when we really do not know if that's our last day? It is yeah something I think of.
00:31:23
Speaker
Yeah. It's the one thing we all have in common. that we will all inevitably experience this. Yes. And we don't know when necessarily, but we will all go through it.
00:31:38
Speaker
And yet we talk so little about it We talk so little about our own mortality and the mortality around about you know of everyone around us. We are so fearful of that, yet it's something that's guaranteed.
00:31:53
Speaker
But we are not able to have these tough conversations of even saying what our own wishes would be for when we die. or would yeah you know It's like we talk about, oh my gosh, on my wedding day, i want the love.
00:32:06
Speaker
Why don't we do that with... um that day i've i mean I've done it. I've told to call my husband, I'm like, by the way, like, can you guys just like put some music and ahlthough
00:32:17
Speaker
my sister, you pop. My sister and I did the same thing a couple of weeks ago. She was like, okay, so it has to be a party. There has to be good music. Exactly. There's gotta be dancing. Something that reflects us.
00:32:30
Speaker
Right. Mocktails, cocktails, Is this still? Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry. It's still recording. Okay. inside Yeah. It's yeah. Something that reflects who we were in this life. Like something, you know, like do that in the funeral too. Like something that reflects us or personalities.
00:32:49
Speaker
ah Yeah. That would be so cool. And we both said it says it should be a celebration. Yes. A celebration of life. Right. A celebration of the, the years that we had and what who we were able to be and what we were able to contribute so at least i know my sister's got my back I know I told the same at least I know that Carlos knows that my husband knows that and so hopefully we at the same time I say I know you have to do something that's like meaningful to like that that brings some kind of ah meaning to those that are
00:33:20
Speaker
left behind that helps them in their grief journey as well. So I get that. It's a little selfish for me to just think how I want to be celebrated. But at the same time, it just would help. I feel like it would help, you know, those behind to do it in a way that's mirroring who the person was to them and in life.
00:33:38
Speaker
So anyhow, that's like, yeah we could have we had good we could have a whole other podcast just talking about what what what that would look like. Well, I think that's actually where ah death doula can, I don't want to jump to that. but Yeah, no, i please do. I was just going to ask you. I was just going ask you about that. So yeah, what then when did the thoughts of being a death doula come to mind and that you're in this process of wanting to be? Very, very recently.
00:34:05
Speaker
I have been, and I don't know if you can relate to this at all, but I have for the longest time felt like I am this crazy obsessed person about death.
00:34:17
Speaker
Like when after my mom died, I probably got every possible book on death and dying that existed. i mean, I was just, I was looking for answers at that time. So I was curious, like, where did she go? What happened to her when we died?
00:34:33
Speaker
logically, physically, what happens to us. So I was searching for answers. I remember obsessively reading the obituary section of the paper because I wanted to see, i wanted to know there were other people who were young who also died. Like I would, i just these obsessive, odd things that someone could perceive as being weird. Morbid, like they say, morbid, dark. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's read a lot books about You know, death and dying. And I don't actually think it's morbid. I think at all. I don't think it either.
00:35:05
Speaker
I don't think it either. So I've always had this, obviously from my own experience, but this curiosity fascination with dying. And then, and I read a lot. I'm an avid reader.
00:35:17
Speaker
So or a couple, maybe a year ago, I read this book. You might've heard of it. It's called Briefly Perfectly Human. by Alua Arthur. its i'm going to show you no one else can see it, but it's this book.
00:35:29
Speaker
And it's about this woman who, I kid you not, we live parallel lives. So we're both former legal aid lawyers.
00:35:41
Speaker
We both actually practiced the same kind of law when we first got out of law school. We're both women who were perceived as being very young when we were new lawyers.
00:35:54
Speaker
We, she also felt in many ways like she was a living a life based on what society expected of her. um She often felt like an outsider, crazy enough, she was actually on the Pacific coast when she heard about her brother-in-law who was very, very ill, just like I was on the Pacific coast when I got a call from my sister that I needed to come home.
00:36:20
Speaker
I mean, it's uncanny. So anyhow, I read her book. She has a company. going plug it. It's called Going With Grace. She offers, it's all about her journey, leaving the practice of law to do death work And what's so interesting is that she describes death work as activism at its core.
00:36:42
Speaker
Because she is an activist. She's a lawyer. I consider myself to be an activist. And this idea that you
00:36:51
Speaker
are witnessing either a beautiful death, which I think we all hope for, or you're watching a loved one suffer. and not wanting other people to bear that burden.
00:37:04
Speaker
And so she talks about her journey from leaving the practice of law to becoming a deaf doula. It's the same as birth doulas. i mean, I never had one.
00:37:15
Speaker
My sister's a birth doula. So, yeah. So, and I, yeah. And it's interesting because we both looked into the death doula because my sister's a birth doula and it's the same. It's not ushering our life in and ushering a life. It's not much different. It is. You're just ushering and accompanying somebody going through this transition.
00:37:36
Speaker
Right. And you're supporting them and you're supporting their loved ones. And you're just to me, there's an, There is a beauty in it. And when we come into this world, we transition into this world, we will transition out of the world.
00:37:52
Speaker
And so into whatever is next. And so that's what I believe. And so if I can help someone, and I don't know, i mean, in my application, I'm going to, so I'm getting trained in July and I, they ask you, is this for personal or, you know, what what do you hope to do with this? And I don't know.
00:38:10
Speaker
i mean, at the very least, I'm thinking, okay, well, when it's my time, to have these skills or when it's the time of a loved one or a friend to be able to have be equipped with these skills how beautiful is that and then if i should decide one day that there's greater meaning for me in doing this work but um this book really it did change change me and made me think about it opened up this whole new universe of work that i would never have even known about
00:38:42
Speaker
we don't talk about it. We talk about birth doulas. Right. and and we and And yeah, I only really found out about death doula after my mom died. I had never even heard that there was because I kept on my thinking because my mom's death was beautiful.
00:38:57
Speaker
Like it was beautiful, you know, and and like like like you said, like leaving with grace. Like but what is it that she says? Going with grace. My mom went. my mom went with like it was all of us around her there was prayers it was music it was just exactly how she wanted it so it was so spiritual and I know that not everybody yeah like i have no clue who like how my sister died for example she was in a hospital alone when she died you know it was just the situation was different so it
00:39:28
Speaker
It is, um it' just yeah it it's just, it's just so beautiful to be able to see that there is this work and so many people now talking more about this transition.
00:39:42
Speaker
So we're talking about transitions. We're talking about this major transition that you experienced yourself of now being someone without a mother, the transition of motherhood now.
00:39:54
Speaker
So let's talk about this process grief that occurs in transitions in life and which ones of this before, before this, after this, and and that in-between part and the grief in that?
00:40:12
Speaker
Yeah, and I think transition is the right word, right? Like we transition into the world. We transition throughout our lives. We transition when we die, right? So to me, these are all different ways of transitioning.
00:40:26
Speaker
And I think we often... Think about grief solely as the loss of a loved one.
00:40:44
Speaker
What I've realized, especially in the past five to 10 years, is that grief can manifest itself in many different forms. So during COVID, i was really struck. I mean, there were countless people who were losing jobs, who were losing their health.
00:41:02
Speaker
And I think for many people, it was a period of grief. It was losing how we used to operate and having to transition into this new way of being with what with one another.
00:41:15
Speaker
so I think it really struck me during the pandemic And then the more I thought about it, the more I thought, and even now, even now that so many folks who are losing jobs, the way the world is is shifting, I think law I've realized over time that loss and grief show up in so many different ways.
00:41:33
Speaker
And the other one that I can really relate to is around identity. And specifically, becoming a mother, which I'm not at all suggesting is a loss,
00:41:48
Speaker
Right. I'm not that's not the message I want to send send here, but it is in a way the shedding of one identity for another. It's not longing for the past, but it's. Discovering who am I becoming now?
00:42:01
Speaker
And I think we're almost always doing that in life. We're changing, we're evolving as people. And in some ways, it's not a sad, this for me is not obviously not a sad loss, but it is transition into who I am now and what is my identity as a mother versus who I was before. Because motherhood in and of itself, just like the loss of a loved one, but in a different way is a transformative experience.
00:42:31
Speaker
So I think my perspective on grief and loss has expanded recognize how it shows up in so many different ways and how we really have to support one another.
00:42:45
Speaker
and I think about this a lot in the workplace, given the work I do around inclusion, i think we have to really create space to talk about these experiences and to recognize the impact that they have on our lives.
00:43:01
Speaker
you You said it beautifully. The part of motherhood, I actually, my first episode, my first episode and on my podcast five years ago, had to do actually with the grief I experienced as a mom.
00:43:12
Speaker
And for mine, it was that shift of identity was huge for me. I did not recognize that that's what was happening. And me and it for me, it was this there was an aspect of the longing of the who I was, just like there's still an aspect of sometimes longing when someone dies of wanting to be who we were before they died or having them in our lives. There was part of me that was missing the person I was.
00:43:38
Speaker
was before that I was not able to figure out how to bring along for this new ride of how I was becoming, you know, who I was becoming. So, so yes. So that was a big one for me in identity.
00:43:52
Speaker
I can see that. I can see that too. I mean, i think for me, it might be sort of the loss of the, of sort of an ability to be carefree in a way that as a mother,
00:44:03
Speaker
I've lost a bit of that because i am a caretaker. and that is in many ways my primary responsibility. So I have to be a protector and ah someone who can be the safe harbor for them. And I think I do remember we all, you know, the life before where I was able to be a bit more carefree and free spirited. I mean, those are the words that come to mind and missing that a little bit and saying, Oh, I want, I wish I could sort of experience that again. Right.
00:44:35
Speaker
Yeah. It's so true. Cause it's not, there's even times in which I'm like, Oh, let's bungee jumping. I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't do that now. I would have before probably like, but And I wouldn't do that now, personally.
00:44:48
Speaker
i i I personally would probably not jump out of ah out of ah you know do paraute you know whatever but but out of a parachute unless it's the all of us and All four of us. I'm like, we all jump out. Then I'm okay. but yeah like Yeah. No. its So those are all the transitions and there's more to come, right? All the time. Children get older. We are constantly evolving and changing and becoming.
00:45:18
Speaker
And I think inevitably that means we're losing something about ourselves to bring in something new. There's often grief with that. Yes, and it's okay. That's the thing. It's not it's ah acknowledging that those emotions are okay to have and that not everybody experiences life's transitions in the same way, and that's okay too. not you know You know, it's just, yeah, for somebody get you know changing jobs,
00:45:51
Speaker
could be easy and they don't end up feeling, you know, grief then for other people. They do. It's different of like, okay, did you get fired? Did you choose to leave? Did you choose, even if you chose to leave a job, you still might miss certain things of the other job. the it's a bit You know, you're like, oh, you're becoming an entrepreneur. You used to be an employee.
00:46:11
Speaker
You may miss some things of that. yeah There's just so many different things. Friendship. I mean, we can Oh, so many friendships is a huge one. Which is so many. Yeah, sometimes we outgrow friendships or other friends outgrow us, you know, and we have to be okay with the fact that they're shedding certain parts and that where they are in their growth may not include us and being okay with that, you know, things like that. It's just so many things. But grief is very...
00:46:39
Speaker
big and encompassing and ah and knowing that just makes us comprehend the world just a slightly bit more or at least our emotions around certain things. Well, and hopefully also live each day such that when we are at that point,
00:46:57
Speaker
we feel like we've lived the full life that we could have lived. I mean, that is yet another gift. In the back of my mind, i don't take it for granted, right, what we were saying earlier.
00:47:09
Speaker
And so my hope is that when it is my time, and this is not morbid, my kids would be like, that's not morbid, that I can feel like it's this beautiful change and that I've lived a full life and I'm ready for what's next. Yes.
00:47:23
Speaker
I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm the same. I feel exactly the same way. The other day, and like of mad the other day, I say the other day, I sound like a little kid. Yesterday, when it was like two years ago, ah i was start telling, but thinking of that, I'm like, you know, I'm actually content. If something were to happen to me,
00:47:42
Speaker
I'd be content right now. Yes. Was there more I would want to do in my life? Yes. But there always is something more we would want to do, but being content with who we are right now and being at peace with wherever we are, that if the today was, i'm like,
00:47:57
Speaker
be okay. You know, like that's, i don't know. That was my thought again. more but yeah i mean, I think I would be if it weren't for my young child. Like exactly for me, the big fear is losing them not having a mother, especially when you know what it's like not to not have a mother, even if later in life.
00:48:13
Speaker
But, but for that, I'm with you. It's not like if it was about me, yeah I'm like, oh, okay. It's ah it's a yes. We're more like, oh my gosh, would they be okay grieving me? You know, that kind of thing. What we were saying earlier, the people around us,
00:48:26
Speaker
as opposed to our own fear for ourselves. Exactly. I know. Yeah, there's there's so many layers. Okay. So we talked ah slightly about your work. Just explain how it is, that what it is exactly that you do in the inclusion space with work and how you see grief show up there.
00:48:47
Speaker
Okay. So it let me try to some say this in a concise way. My work that I've been doing for the past 10 years or so is about how do we create inclusive workplace cultures so that organizations can be effective, productive, successful, because in order to be a strong team in order to be a strong successful business.
00:49:17
Speaker
We need to have a variety of perspectives in place and we need to have ah sense of people feeling seen, heard, valued, recognized. So that is what my work is in a nutshell about.
00:49:32
Speaker
And like I said, I think part of that means creating spaces where everyone feels valued, respected and empowered. And that means recognizing all aspects of an individual, including experiences with g grief and healing.
00:49:49
Speaker
And so i think for many individuals, certainly for me, my be experience with grief was isolating and in some ways othering.
00:50:02
Speaker
And I think we struggle to talk about these experiences in the workplace. So if we truly want people to bring all of who they are so that they can contribute the best that they can possibly contribute in the workplace.
00:50:17
Speaker
I think we have to acknowledge and support colleagues when they're grieving to have supportive policies, to encourage self-care, to practice empathy. I think it's hard to look at an individual and not recognize this experience.
00:50:36
Speaker
Oh, my gosh. i As you were talking, I'm like, I wonder if she because I'm like, if she's not going to say that she does something in the inclusion space of including me, this is me in my mind. After this, after we finish recording, I'm going to tell her she's got to like do something about advocacy about that. Like in my head, I'm like, of as you're saying, I'm like, oh, yeah that's exactly what I thought she was.
00:50:57
Speaker
I mean, i I witnessed it this year with a dear friend who is a colleague whose young sister died. And the way, number one, she it didn't she couldn't separate it from her role in the organization.
00:51:12
Speaker
She was experiencing profound grief. The way her colleagues, we showed up for her in this time of need, is an example of just that.
00:51:23
Speaker
To allow her to talk about it, to feel what she felt, to be there when she needed us, to support her when she couldn't focus on her work, and to be there with our arms open when she came back.
00:51:40
Speaker
and it's it's And that's the thing, it should be that way in every type of workspace. And knowing that for what one person may be grief, like again, we we we kind of start putting these categories, even the loss of the a pet, for example, right? It's huge for some person that that is their the whole world is being ah parent of a pet.
00:52:06
Speaker
And when they no longer have that pet, I don't know if it's acknowledged in the workspace as it should be for some people that that is like as if their closest family member had died. Because this person or this person, this being has been in their lives 24 seven for the past certain number of years in every single.
00:52:24
Speaker
So yes, I think that's amazing work that you do of inclusion and having that. So, oh, thank you for what you do with that. More work to So much work to be done. Yes.
00:52:34
Speaker
And so that's exciting. New ways of being able to keep on having these conversations, you know, outside of podcasts, outside of our friendships, including them in the workspace and how it is that we can start making more changes.
00:52:50
Speaker
So Jaya, I like to ask people if there's something that you want to share. Is there something I have not asked you that you want to make sure that you share before we talk a little bit more about how people can connect with you?
00:53:03
Speaker
I think one quote that has stuck with me for years that has also stuck me and helped me, and you've probably heard of this heard this quote before. I'm going to just share it because it's really gotten me through in certain moments.
00:53:20
Speaker
and The quote is, grief I've learned is really love. It's all the love you want to give but cannot. All of that unspent love gathers up in the corners of your eyes, the lump in your throat, and in that hollow part of your chest.
00:53:36
Speaker
And it's just a reminder that we grieve because we have deeply loved.
00:53:43
Speaker
Thank you for sharing that. And now let's share how people can get hold of you. Jaya, how can people connect with you? So I'm active on social media.
00:53:54
Speaker
I'm on Instagram at being.jaya. And I'm also on LinkedIn, Saxena. ah So those are the best ways. And if anyone wants, I'm always open to entertaining conversations.
00:54:10
Speaker
And of course, for you, Kendra, if there's anything I can do to support you in your work, I think this is such a valuable space that you've created. And I am so, so grateful.
00:54:20
Speaker
I am grateful you're here, Jaya. And I will share the links, of course, below in the show show notes. So please click on those. Follow, hope you share a lot of inspiration on your Instagram.
00:54:31
Speaker
Way more. I literally, I only share like when I'm going to post a podcast, like when a podcast has come up. I'm fine, but the social media stuff is not easy. I know, it is not. It's a full-time job in itself. I'm like, man, that takes a lot of energy. So um thank you again for sharing so many different aspects of your life and how grief has really...
00:54:55
Speaker
may hey it helped you become who you are and it's part of your life and how it is part of all of our lives and to keep on being an advocate for other people who are grieving in the workspace as well.
00:55:07
Speaker
Thank you, Jaya. Thank you, Kendra. I really appreciate you and your work. Take good care. You too
00:55:19
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief.
00:55:32
Speaker
If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who who may need to hear this, please do so.
00:55:48
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me.
00:56:01
Speaker
And thanks once again for tuning in to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray In Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.