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Who? Two Amazing Dads via Egg Donation & Surrogacy
77 Plays4 months ago
Join us in today's heartwarming episode as we sit down with dads Mike and Harold, who share their incredible journey of growing their family through surrogacy and egg donation. As a same-sex couple, they open up about the complexities they navigated, from medical challenges to the emotional and practical considerations they faced along the way.
Mike and Harold highlight the invaluable support from Egg Donor & Surrogate Solutions, whose guidance was crucial throughout their journey. Despite numerous obstacles, their unwavering determination to become parents shines through. They talk about the importance of open communication, a strong support system, and carefully considering the long-term implications of their decisions regarding genetic material.
Reflecting on their decade-long journey, Mike and Harold provide a wealth of insights for anyone embarking on a similar path. This episode is filled with resilience, humor, and above all, love. Don't miss this touching conversation with two incredible individuals who navigated the surrogacy process with grace and joy.
Takeaways
- Having a supportive agency can provide guidance and help navigate the complexities of the process.
- The journey to parenthood may involve challenges and setbacks, but determination and support can keep you going.
- Humorous and heartwarming moments make the journey worthwhile. Open and honest communication is crucial throughout the surrogacy journey.
- Having a strong support system can help navigate the challenges and emotional rollercoaster of surrogacy.
- Decisions regarding genetic material should be carefully considered and discussed between intended parents.
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Transcript
Introduction and Emotional Journey
00:00:00
Speaker
On today's episode, we get to hear from dads, Mike and Harold, as they share their heartfelt journey of deciding to grow their family through surrogacy and egg donation. We go into the complexities of this path as a same sex couple, navigating medical complications and the emotional and practical considerations that they faced.
Support and Perseverance
00:00:19
Speaker
Mike and Harold highlight the invaluable role of egg donor and surrogate solutions in guiding them through the process and providing unwavering support. Despite the challenges and setbacks, their determination to become parents fueled their perseverance. They emphasized the need for open communication, a strong support system, and thoughtful consideration of the long-term implications of decisions regarding genetic material.
Industry Evolution and Insights
00:00:48
Speaker
After starting their journey over 10 years ago, a lot in the industry has changed.
00:00:52
Speaker
but Mike and Harold provide a wealth of insights for anyone embarking on this path to growing their family. This was a fun and amazing conversation. And I can't wait for you to hear from the two incredible individuals, Mike and Harold, who navigated their surrogacy process with resilience, humor, and love. Me, you, and who? Who knew it would take more than two people to have a baby? In a world where infertility is no longer a taboo topic, this podcast will take you through all of the different aspects of surrogacy and egg donation through the lens of many who walk this journey in different ways. My name is Whitney Hall, and I am a two-time Surrogate Now Turned Surrogacy Coordinator for Egg Donor and Surrogate Solutions.
00:01:42
Speaker
the very agency I used when I chose to carry for two amazing families.
Family Planning and Legal Milestones
00:01:48
Speaker
With this podcast, it is our goal to help guide and support you as you learn about what it takes to grow a family in an alternative way, as well as hear inspiring and beautiful stories of how this path has changed lives forever. We can't wait for you to hear about just one more way happy families are created every day. Hi, you guys. Thank you so much for being here. Absolutely. Okay, so since we have two of you, why don't we go ahead and Mike and Harold whose voices who
00:02:24
Speaker
I'm Mike. I'm Harold. Yay. And you guys have two amazing kiddos who are nine and five. You're like almost nine, almost six, almost nine, almost six. Oh my goodness. And Maddie is your almost nine year old. Correct. And Henry is your almost six year old. Yep. Yep. And you'll hear us call them into a lot. I love it. So we're in the thick of parenthood, but I want to take you guys in the way back machine and I want to hear how we even got here. What did, what did it look like whenever you guys were first having those conversations of deciding to grow your family? Um,
00:03:08
Speaker
It was actually kind of just random to be honest. So yeah back when we started, um, gay marriage wasn't legal yet. Um, so we started cause my sister had, um, her first child, right? Uh, yes. And so we were spending a lot of time in Houston cause Mike taught there on weekends a lot and, um, And that's when she lives. Yeah. And he was a colicky little baby. And so we were spending a lot of time and she was like, Oh, I forgot how wonderful you are with kids. Your voice just calms them. Um, and we were talking at some point later and she was, I forgot what we said and said something about her family. And I was like, well, that kind of doesn't work. And she goes, well, I thought I'd tell you this before, but I'll give you all a batch of eggs. Like I'm happy to do that.
00:04:03
Speaker
So that's actually not what ended up happening um that didn't create our family, but we went down that path. But that is definitely what started us on the conversation of, oh, this is this is a possibility of having a genetically tied family. Yeah, which was really important for you both at the time because of just where things stood as far as legal. i like Legal was definitely a huge part. Mike's mom is older. My grandmother, who I was super close to, was was was dying at the time. And so it was a lot of emotional and and very we're both very practical. Well, me a little more. I'm an engineer, so I'm very logical. So the legal standpoint was critical to us at the point.
00:04:57
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I can remember him coming home and um and sort of having this conversation of so, you know, my sister and I were talking like, Oh, man, what were you talking about now? um And to be perfectly honest, you know, I had grown up in a very rural part of Florida. And it was, you know, looking back now, more conservative than than living in in ah in a big city and You know, I've been picked on for being gay and, you know, it was like that whole growing up in the 80s process, which was really, really tough. I remember saying to Harold, I was like, my gosh, you know, it was hard enough me being actually gay and being picked on to bring a child into ah a gay family.
00:05:41
Speaker
um you know, whether they end up being gay or straight. Like i I just don't know if I'm ready for that. You know, it just, yeah again, gay marriage hadn't been you know sort approved, if you will, allowed. And so it it it took us, you know, a few months. We were actually in Italy for Harold's 40th birthday and um gay marriage wasn't approved, but I think it was the defensive marriage act that got overturned. interships We were in, and i I sort of said, okay, by the time we come back from this trip,
00:06:12
Speaker
We'll have another conversation, and let's see if you know if this is the the path for our for us to to go. And I remember we were were in Venice, and we were watching the news, and the Supreme Court in the US had you know announced that they were they were you know starting to dismantle some of these these prejudicial laws that were in place. And I was like, that's our sign, Harold. Let's have a family.
Surrogacy Complexities and Legal Hurdles
00:06:36
Speaker
Oh, I love that. so when we were flying around the bed in the hotel room, um And yeah, and then we sort of start going down the road. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. Wow. So, you so during that time, you guys got, you, you guys did end up legally getting married during, during this whole process, right? Well, during the, during the during the bros ah during the process, but very far into the process.
00:07:03
Speaker
is is probably the best way of describing it. Sure. At the very, very last moment. Yes. it was we We were focused on the kid part. um And the legality. Right. We were in our our ninth month. um Yeah, just entering our ninth ninth ninth month when um when it became legal to be married, the two of us. ah And so we had a kid, like it was gonna be like a shotgun wedding, you know? We had a baby on the way. Maybe on the way, we gotta get married. Let's make this, you know, an honest thing. And so it was actually really sweet. You know, um I was, like we said, I was teaching in Houston a lot at the time, or maybe I was talking about that earlier. And I was in my class teaching when the Supreme Court
00:07:52
Speaker
um allowed gay marriage to move forward. And I was teaching in Houston and I was an executive MBA class. I worked for Tulane University. And I can remember it was like a four hour class. And after the first hour or so, I could see in the corner of my eye that my phone was blowing up. And so I knew a decision came down. I just didn't know what it was. And so we took a break. I took a look and it said, you know, gay marriage was now allowed. And I had to go right back into class and start teaching again. And I was like three words into my lecture and I just started to cry. I'm thinking about it now. And of course the class year, they're all in their 40s and so. And I made a bad assumption that when you're in a Southern city, that there'd be some conservative elements that wouldn't support this. And as I started to cry, I then said, I'm so sorry, y'all. I said, but I just found out that I can marry my husband. Well, marry my... And we've got a baby that we're like almost about to have. And they all started clapping. Oh my gosh. It was a beautiful moment. And I remember then calling Harold and we were like, let's get on a plane. Let's get going. I was in the, I was in the French quarter where, um, our, our community did a big gathering for the announcement. So they knew the announcement was coming.
00:09:12
Speaker
um And they they set up there were a couple of hundred people who went out outside of St. Louis Cathedral in the French Quarter and waited for the announcement to come down and everybody just kind of had a celebration. Oh my gosh, what a magical moment baby on the way and we're getting married shotgun wedding in the most beautiful way.
00:09:37
Speaker
That's amazing. Okay, there's just there's so much there. But let's go back. Let's talk about that baby that was that was on the way and how we got there. So okay, you guys have decided we're going to grow our family, you know, things were unfolding as far as just the legalities and and things like that. I know Um, you know, there was the the beautiful process of your sister's, um, just amazing offer. Um, and I know there were some things where it didn't quite go the way that you thought, but eventually we get to the moment where we have embryos were going forward. And now we're to that surrogacy process. And I know there's so many ups and downs. How did you guys,
00:10:21
Speaker
Handle those moments when things kind of as things were rolling sure let's start first minutes Yeah, um yeah, like you said it was definitely a journey getting embryos so so my sister did do a harvest we did um Fertilization had a batch of embryos And we did our well before that we got involved with with surrogate solutions and with Gail and set up all of the, you know, going through the legal process, which we had an amazing, um, attorney at the time, um, which it's had some unique challenges to it. Um, she was, she was terminal with cancer during, during our first process. Um, but she was phenomenal and helped us get, we didn't know what she was going through. And so it was, you know, it was a a process. Yeah. Yeah. yeah So Gail, our surrogate, I forget, coordinator. Yeah. coordinator
00:11:28
Speaker
was incredible on helping, you know, keeping us calm of what we'll get through everything. Giving us wonderful advice on the relationship you have with the surrogate that you've picked at that point, um until you get the legal contract signed. How you you want to be friendly, but you you don't want to overstep um until you have all of your legal documents in place. It just kind of makes it a little yeah easier to go through. I'll sort of back up just for a minute that, you know, mean having surrogate solutions, having an agency involved, you know, there's other ways to have a kid, but I really, I can't stress ah enough that
00:12:14
Speaker
that the value that they added to our process to have some agency who you can call and say, listen, you know um this you know we we want to ask these questions of our potential surrogate or the potential surrogate wants to ask questions of you. And it's just so nice to have someone in the middle who can say, no, Mike and Harold, this is a normal question that someone should ask of you. You know, it might feel weird, but this is totally normal or vice versa to say, hey, yes, it is appropriate for you to ask the surrogate this question or no, that's actually not, you know, like I know it, you know, that these, these conversations have to be had, but let me, let me get involved in this. And so it's just help navigate that.
00:12:56
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Because you don't know. I mean, you know, the idea, like, let's have a kid. It's not linear. It is not an engineer, I teach finance, we like to have step A, B, C, D. And we found out we would like get to step D, then have to back up to B, we might go ahead a little bit, and then start over the whole process. And so, you know, it was so great to have surrogate solutions in that. Right, absolutely. I mean, I come from a very big family. um yeah And so, you know, I'm very familiar with my nieces and nephews and my sisters going through having all their kids. But when you're looking at a contract and it's, well, housekeeping and, you know, maternity clothes allowance and things that, you know, you want your family to go through, but you don't.
00:13:47
Speaker
think of these items. You know and you don' don't think of babysitting of their existing children when they're going on a doctor's appointment. um All things that some of them, like Mike said, if you didn't have somebody guiding you and you're looking at the legal aspects, you might think, oh, this person's really being unreasonable. This is like, gang um you know, and and then when you come back after the fact and you've lived through it, you realize, Those things are actually all absolutely reasonable. Yeah, there are safeguards in place for the what ifs that absolutely can happen and every pregnancy is different. And so you want all that spelled out ahead of time.
Emotional Challenges and Support Systems
00:14:30
Speaker
Because the last thing you want to do is be in a spot where you're Seven months pregnant and something's going on in your pregnancy or with your surrogate and You've you know set a budget but your surrogates also going through a financial hardship because of something that's going on with the pregnancy and you're trying to feel you know, am I guilty for not taking care of this or am I
00:14:54
Speaker
You know, so it's really important to have everything lined up and set up ahead of time, which is but absolutely. Yeah. Just thinking, hoping that those, those surprises don't happen, but being prepared when they do. Right. Exactly. Right. Yeah. So we have that in spades in and being able to have the help. And, you know, um, we actually met our, um, our, our. surrogate in sort of in a typical way I would say that, you know, what another thing that the agency will do is they will actually figure out personalities to a particular degree. So, you know, and on both sides right so we can be pretty rule regimented And so if there is a match, we you know Gail would say, i't I've got someone who's wonderful, who's carried once in the past and had a successful pregnancy. But you know i just don't I think that probably um I want to keep looking to see if I can find someone else that matches your personality or vice versa.
00:15:49
Speaker
right you know that um this person probably won't appreciate, you know, A, B, and C. So oh with us, Gayle said, listen, I have got a first time gestational carrier surrogate, and she's actually coming into New Orleans with her husband, and I actually think y'all will be just an amazing match. um I normally would go with to sort of facilitate these these meetings, but, um you know, if y'all are both comfortable, you can meet up in New Orleans, she would love to meet you. And we did, and we ended up meeting in a hotel lobby and sort of had coffee and talk for an hour, hour and a half. and Oh my gosh, so fun. And um you know, and that started our journey. And I'll tell you,
00:16:36
Speaker
When Harold's sister gave us this this gift of of eggs, we were working with a with a hospital that, we had a choice of a couple of hospitals. the fertility clinic fertility Fertility clinics, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And one at the time, because gay marriage wasn't legal, was not comfortable working with same-sex couples. And that was kind of a ah gut punch. We went to another local fertility clinic and Um, you know, again, who knows what happened, but in the end, the, the embryos, they looked as if they were fully viable and good quality, but there might've been some overstimulation of the eggs that were because and the harvest was some huge numbers. They harvested 21 eggs for my sister. After doing additional harvest, we realized that's like right insane. Yeah. And so we, um, we did it. We did our first transfer.
00:17:33
Speaker
I didn't it didn't didn't take me to biochemical pregnancy which in essence means for those of you who are listening to this podcast it means that there are you you're it's all about the numbers in terms of how viable the pregnancy is right the hormones and so it came back at a number that was only like 15 you want something over 50. But if you find yourself on the internet, like unfortunately we did, you can find cases in which 15 could have been a viable pregnant. And so, yeah, be always going to be aware of that. Dr. Google or Dr. Facebook, go to your agency, you know, and, and.
00:18:09
Speaker
the at the In the end, we though we we didn't have the best experience with that particular fertility clinic. And so it's important that you have agency um to to sort of pull yourself out of a particular partner if you need to and move to another. And that's where Gail was able to say, listen, why don't you move? And we met Dr. Goldstein in Plano, Texas, and he is an amazing, amazing man in his clinic. and We moved it up there and he attempted to use the same genetic material to to try two more times. And in the end, he just wasn't he said, listen, guys, do you want to have a family or do you want to have a tie genetically? And we're like, well, I mean, we just always thought about using your sister, but we just want to have a family. Because at the time Harold's sister um got pregnant,
00:18:59
Speaker
uh with another child and therefore could not give us another batch of eggs when we finally decided. I called her on our um after our third attempt and I had the news and Mike and I were like you know we're we're emotionally exhausted financially we're we're tapped um we had also bought our dream home for our family during that time. So much happening. yeah Which meant finances weren't where they were supposed to be. um And so when they called, we were just like, OK, this is a sign. This this just wasn't meant for us. And I called my sister, and my sister's kind of like me. She's not a very emotional forward person. And she starts crying on the phone when I told her it didn't
00:19:52
Speaker
take. And I was like, you know, I was like, lovely we're we're fine. We're okay. And she goes, No, you don't get it. I'm, I'm six weeks pregnant. I found out yesterday, which means I won't be to give you eggs for a year and a half. And so oh it's this beautiful, bittersweet. Oh, you're about to have another niece or nephew. Oh, wait, now I've got to think about Shakespearean, right? Like, the you know, very shakespeare
00:20:23
Speaker
So, and then, you know, several hours later, we we knew Dr. Goldstein wanted to speak to us and he called us back and he was like, by like like Mike said, like, I know y'all want family, but like, Come on y'all, like y'all are gonna be incredible parents. You just, you want a family, not a genetic tie. And he was incredible and he was like, we will make this work. um And he he came through on his word and- They just started having a their own um egg donation. a Very small food. Their frozen bank. oral Correct, correct.
00:21:02
Speaker
So um yeah, so a young woman, you know, we matched with. And it well was it was ironic because when we went through the surrogate thing, it was so easy, right? Gail was able to find us somebody that was kind of like perfect. um But ironically, when it came time to the egg donor thing, we searched his database, we searched egg donor solutions database, we searched another database, and there was just not that one person, right? like i Just waiting. In Mike and I's relationship, I do all the planning, I do all the... the pre-work creeping up on and I show him a plan and he's like well I i don't I don't like that one piece that's the center brick of the whole building. When we talked about editing Whitney we talked about editing certain parts of this yes you can we can just take that one out uh-huh uh-huh yeah
00:22:02
Speaker
well So, you know, i'd I'd give Michael this and he'd be like, you know, oh, that but look, this part doesn't sit right with me. I'm not quite. Yeah, I mean, I've talked to so many parents when they're navigating egg donation, you know, just um the database, it's so overwhelming because for some people, they're looking for their twin. For other people, they're, you know, really particularly worried about a certain aspect. It's, you know, there's just it. Yeah. And for everybody seems to figure out their thing that they're kind of top five priorities or just, I get this feeling that this works out, but it's a lot and it's a big decision for sure.
00:22:46
Speaker
yeah wait you know We wanted someone who had similar features to us that would make sense that the child could be either one of ours, um even if they took after the mother. Ironically, Dr. Goldstein's nurse called one day and she goes, I know y'all are having a hard time. I really think I have the perfect person. Give me to Wednesday. I'm not gonna put her live until y'all see her her profile. yeah was it It was truly like the, she hit every mark and then her photo was her probably at Sanco de Mayo with the big sombrero on and Mike was just like, that's it. That's her. Just needed the sombrero.
00:23:31
Speaker
It's really interesting. interesting you know so i would i would An advice that I would give to ah to anyone who's who's thinking about this is there's an element of this that really is odd. right You're sort of looking through a catalog of features of people who are going to affect your family in such a meaningful way. And you don't want to trivialize it. right you don't want to sort of um But at the same time, you have to have humor about it. You have to stay with your partner and be able to you know be like, oh, no, like as you're kind of flipping through. you know And then look at each other and be like, how ridiculous you know it is is this process? um And so yes, when when that happened, um we were off and running and we got pregnant. So this is after we had three failed attempts, we got pregnant.
00:24:16
Speaker
And our in our and our ah her surrogate is the most amazing woman. She had three kids of her own, her husband, I just, you know, every time you see me, you just want to give them a big old hug. um And she stuck with us. So this is her first time being a surrogate and she, you know, so this went on for well over a year, and you know, attempt And then, because the first time I said it was a biochemical pregnancy, which then that didn't work out, the the next two was like, not even a thing. The doctor's like, sure that it just didn't take. And so for her to stick with us was just an amazing, amazing gift that she gave us. And on that fourth time, because remember each time she's having to prepare her body, she's having to take shots to, yeah you know, trick her body into being able to accept a pregnancy. And so by that fourth time, um it it took, and it was just, it was just meant to be.
00:25:03
Speaker
Yeah, well, and and talk about, you know, wanting that linear timeline, you know, I mean, I know, and like you all you were hoping for that linear timeline and surrogates there. Oh, well, you know, and a lot of time, mu I wouldn't say all but most surrogates haven't necessarily, you know, gone through the delay of you know the of pregnancy or had a lot of trouble getting pregnant. Now, some have. Some have done IVF you know prior. but um but But to not have things go right, if you will, that first time, it can kind of be like a
00:25:45
Speaker
oh wow this timeline isn't you know oh in nine months i'm gonna have a baby like it can be up to a year it can be those three fails it can be all of those things and like you said our server was ah may is amazing And Gail was amazing in picking her in that she she is a planner. She is more on the type A personality side like we are. So for her, I'm sure it was just as struggling because it was, well, I had this, this, this, and this planned and organized. and
00:26:19
Speaker
So to stay with us was probably also the Taipei personality of I'm not giving up because of this. Yeah, ah so going back to because you guys had mentioned, you know, again, even before you got to the surrogacy aspect of it, just you guys were emotionally tapped, financially tapped, all of that as you're going through this after those fails, after It takes a while to finally find that perfect donor, all of those things.
Shared Experiences and Lessons Learned
00:26:51
Speaker
What kept you going? That's a great question. And I'll i tell you, I'm going to answer that question in a couple of ways. So, and and one is sort of ah a cautionary tale. You know, you hear from any woman, but right? They'll tell a woman, um you know, I mean, I'm preaching to the choir here, right? Oh, you're good. You're going to do it. please Please put me in my place when I need to be, right? But it's like, No, you're excellent. No, go for it.
00:27:14
Speaker
with well you're You're pregnant, but please wait until you hit you know the three month mark roughly before you start telling people because you know that first trimester is- Oh yeah, there's just that general sort of, hey, 12 weeks is kind of when you're most likely in the clear. Let's, you know yeah, yeah, yeah. And IVF is the same way. And we, the first time, there were a couple of people that we had told, right? um And when you get the news that you're not pregnant, You know, what happens is that the people you've told, they want to support you. And so they're texting you and they're calling and they're like, so I know you're going to get your results today and da da da da. But when you're holding each other and crying and you just want to be alone when you find the news and you're talking to your surrogate and she's crying.
00:28:02
Speaker
more you know you You just need to make sure that you have that moment that it's it's the two of you and your surrogate, her family, you know that just need some time to be on the same page of, okay, what what does this mean? Where do we go from here before you sort of you know um share it with with others. So that's that's not what kept us going, but that is just a sort of a cautionary tale. but i'd say it it It made it easier. um So two of my sisters had some struggles getting pregnant. um One of my sisters has quadruplet 24 year olds back my oh back in the day when we were doing a lot of embryos. yeah All girls. Yes. And the brilliance. Yes. Oh my goodness.
00:28:53
Speaker
So, you know, I watched her go through that. And then, so I've seen it. So thankfully I i knew the first trimester kind of rules. So honestly, we, two people knew, my sister clearly had to know, clearly and her husband. And then we had one other friend that Mike was saying that knew. And, you know, it, it was hard afterwards. Cause we had a lot of people who felt like, Maybe they thought we weren't close enough to him because we didn't confide in them or share this journey with them. But it was for selfish reasons that in in hindsight, I'm glad we did it. I wish we wouldn't have had to. But I am i am glad we did it. We just saw another friend go through that where he and his his husband, they announced very early and sadly had a miscarriage.
00:29:50
Speaker
you know, had to call 84 people and, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's just. Yeah. Well, I feel like, and, and correct me if I'm wrong, cause I think everybody, some people love the community that can come around them when there is unfortunate news, whether it's chemical or miscarriage or, or things like that. But then others, it is that I really would prefer to just have that smaller circle because I don't want the continued, I have to tell the story, I have to tell the story. It was reliving it every time you had to call someone, right? Right. It it really is hard. And again, not to sort of keep saying this, but the, you know, and again, surrogate solutions, Gail in particular, who was, you know, our, our main person,
00:30:41
Speaker
That was a community for us, right? So that that allowed us other people that we could pick up the phone and just cry with with them, right? And empathy is just really beautiful to help through the process. And your original question was what kept us going. And I think that both Harold and I are very grounded people. that worked really well together on on trying to reach a goal. Many times, as he says, he does the research and lays the groundwork and I'll kind of show up again. But you know, and then having that, you know, I think that if if our surrogate had been a different type of personality or if she had thrown in the towel, that probably would have also shaken us a bit to say, I don't know, maybe we, what what what do we do?
00:31:24
Speaker
ah sure you know, and I just at the end of the day, we wanted to be parents.
Parenting Challenges and Joys
00:31:29
Speaker
I mean, we, you know, careful, careful what you wish for sometimes. We have a very headphone daughter and son. um but you Yes, it's gonna serve them so well in life This morning to Doritos all over our white couch. So, you know um, but yeah this gorgeous moments and everyone listening to me like, why do you have a white couch? If you have two children, I won't say it was me, but let's just say it was a decision we made together. harold made the groundwork and we just went with it Yeah, promised it was phenomenal new fabric that was anything. Yes, it does not. It does not. But we found we found it. Yeah, we found the kryptonite for the white couch and it's the Dorito dust.
00:32:19
Speaker
But these are the moments you live for, you know? Look at my, in my Facebook page, there's just like this litany of amazingly funny stories of what our kids have done over time. I'll share one quick one. And it really is, this is why you do it, you know, even in a moment when our daughter was probably I don't know, let's just say four and a half years old. um And our and our son was, you know, three years younger than that. So, you know, not really talking much, but, you know, walking, of course. and Sure. um She she came and asked Harold. Harold's Papa and I'm dead. And so I heard. No, she came to me and asked something. And I said, no, you can't have whatever. I walked in the bathroom and I heard her go to to Harold and say the exact same thing. and There's that first time of like, oh, no, you did not. You are not going to start going to play one against the other.
00:33:08
Speaker
Plus, I had a particularly stressful day and so i come I come flying out of the bedroom and I'm like, Maddie, you will not do that. Like, Papa and I are a team. We will always say the same thing. You will not go to one and then try the other one. did-dada-da And of course, she's just kind of looking at me like. You're a fool. Like, what do you think? I want her to say, like, yes, sir. Like, I'm sorry. Like, I won't do that again. su girl um I'm like, Maddie, do you understand? We are a team. We will always give you the same answer.
00:33:40
Speaker
And just then, her little brother comes like waddling up, because he's like, what's all the commotion? And I'm like, we are a team. And she goes, yeah, I understand. And then she holds her brother's hand. She goes, I understand that that makes us the other team. And the two of them like spin around and walk back to her room. Oh, snap. And I was oh, within those moments, you realize, like We are raising a very smart child. And like you said, it's going to serve her so well. But in that moment, you know, I just give it to her. I was like, you win that round.
Handling Surrogacy Transitions
00:34:11
Speaker
Yeah, so yeah that point for Maddie. Your question, you know, what keeps you going? It's the hope that you have these stories that you will then be able to laugh about. and you know You know, I'm an only child of an only child. And so to have a child of my own and then that sort of
00:34:30
Speaker
um you know led into us having a second child, you know this this is this is why you do it. Yeah. Yeah. What? and I don't know, we've kind of talked, we we've kind of talked about it, but was there anything that you felt was just completely unexpected as you were going through the journey? I think you know some people they're like, You know, you you kind of sort of prepare yourself for like, it might not work or, or, you know, there's going to kind of be those, I guess, quote, typical bumps that might happen. But was there ever anything where you were like, yep, that was from left field. I wasn't expecting that. Right. Um, I'll give one. It's, it means it's sort of along the lines of what we've been talking about. Do you prepare yourself for, you know, a miscarriage or, you know, um,
00:35:25
Speaker
you know or not the so transfer not taking. yeah um But we had a situation where when we decided to have our our second child, our son, we were matched with an amazing woman who had had three of her own children and um a successful surrogacy with another family. And um we had a ah several miscarriages and we just couldn't figure out like what was going on. and And in the end, we ended up switching surrogates after like, again, on this long journey. yeah and It was like breaking up with a family member. It was so hard on her. It was so hard on us.
00:36:11
Speaker
You felt just you know your heart and your in your stomach. um The good thing is she has since gone on and had a successful surrogacy with another family. And we ended up statue with another woman who is still in our life and you know um and and had our and had Henderson. So everything works out fine. But that was you know we just didn't think about what would happen if we needed to. end one partnership and start another. And that's where again, started solutions came in. They were able to really you know help us through this and tell us this is going to hurt on both sides. This is going to be, you know, but we agree that this is.
00:36:50
Speaker
you know, this is probably what we need to do. Yeah. And again, Gail was amazing when we were talking through and, you know, this took us ah suus weeks to come to this decision. Sure. You know, and she was amazing. She was like, guys, like, I know what this is doing to y'all. I see it. I will make the phone call for you if you need. And we're like, As much as I'd love to take that easy route out, like we can't, we have to, but it was it was just amazing to know that she would have, and and the amazing part is that our surrogate at the time probably wouldn't have been thrilled, but she would have taken it well because she was just as close to Gail as we were. And that that's one of the the other key points on having
00:37:46
Speaker
have seen somebody there just experience and knows and has gone through everything and can help you with those decisions. Um, because they are, they're definitely a struggle. Um, well, and I think, you know, like you said, knowing that you have that person that sees it from all sides and is rooting for everyone and knows this isn't This is tearing you guys apart. This is breaking up with basically a family member in in a way and and all of those things. And then having, I think there's comfort on both sides of knowing, you know,
00:38:29
Speaker
there's someone there that's going to support her when maybe we we can't we don't have the strength to do that right now. We know that you know there's going to be someone that knows what she's going through and knows what we've gone through. And and just and again, having that community during something that's so unique and so hard. yup Yep, yep, yep. Exactly. Well, I could tell another thing that that we didn't, it's not that we didn't see coming, but again, it's the sort of very, when you're two guys trying to have a child, the gift of being a woman is like something that you sort of take for granted, meaning
00:39:08
Speaker
um You know, we'd had no way to produce milk for our babies, right? Sure. Sure. Yep. We got to think about feeding. A woman that donated eggs, a ah woman, two women that carried our babies. And then um we had one of our one of our surrogates, um when she let down her milk. Um, it actually caused her like a ah depressive episode. And so for the sake of her family and we fully supported her, she said, listen, I can't pump for you for the next three months because you know, this is going to affect my family. Yeah, absolutely. So we're kind of pivoting as to, you know, okay.
00:39:49
Speaker
And actually someone from Circuit Solutions, yeah sorry and so you know, at the same time um there was a moment in which ah her intended parents did not want ah to use, you know, to decided not to pay or not to, you know, get get the milk. Right. I think they were done or, you know, they chose to go a different route or, you know, whatever. Yeah. Everyone makes their their decision. share These personal details, but I knew that something had happened. And so suddenly we had someone that we knew, you know, who happened to be part of circuit solutions and, um, caring for another family. He was like, I've got some milk. or like And ironically, what made it even better is had a C-section or I can't remember the delivery, but she literally delivered and was being discharged. But.
00:40:41
Speaker
day that Maddie was born. yeah So like we walked down the hall and sat in Katie's room and chatted about, okay, so with her, you know, How are we logistically? Sure. Let's talk about shipping. Let's talk about dropping it off with all of the fun that is part of that. Yeah. It was like, you know, keep me posted. I'm going to go home and start pumping. And my husband and I will meet y'all at a gas station on the way out of town to give you whatever we've
00:41:12
Speaker
Managed to pump so far which was you know yet again an amazing experience. Yeah, well what are the odds, right? You just sort of take it you don't take for granted You just don't think it all the way through and when we got back to New Orleans for our second child for our son I remember that that there was a woman in town here that I knew through Tulane. Remember her sister-in-law? I think that was Maddy. I think that was at the end when I think we were wanting some more milk past the point. And so you're he had a colleague at work that was like, I've got a freezer full. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And so we were able to do that. And then with Henderson,
00:42:01
Speaker
um Our surrogate took, you know, which is natural took some time before her milk started coming in. Yeah, kind of she was wigging out for us and literally like I reach out and I forgot how I did it. I think I went on a Facebook or something that had It had something to do with like some milk stuff and sure, like donating milk and, you know, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Reflections and Advice
00:42:29
Speaker
End up finding a woman who lives in New Orleans who had extra milk and we're like, ah, like this is a stranger. And then I start looking at her friends and one of our past tenants, who's a, who's a, um, pediatric, um,
00:42:48
Speaker
kidney specialist is one of her friends. So I reach out and I'm like, Hey, do you know this person? She goes, Yeah, she's awesome. She graduated med school with me. And 100%. So talk about it takes a village. cards line for yes Oh my gosh. So looking back on just all of that, and then being in the place that you are now, What would, and I know you've kind of given some advice on along the way, but what would maybe be one of like those biggest pieces of advice or what would you want to say to day one Mike and Harold looking back or you know just that little nugget of maybe some intended parents that are about to go through this process in the middle of this process, maybe even a gestational carrier as you're going through this?
00:43:45
Speaker
Yeah, for me, it was all about the communication. I think that we, again, the agency helped us facilitate that communication, but we, we were matched with, with, you know, three amazing women at different times. And so up front, you have to have some conversations that are awkward, right? So indeed the child worked and in our, in our current environment where. Um, you know, in our post row world, these conversations are even more important in terms of, you know, should there be a birth defect that's detected at some point during the pregnancy? What is the path forward, right? Like you have, everybody needs to be in alignment, no matter where they stand on things, but you have to have those tough conversations yes yeah ah to put on one side or another. It's to simply say you need, don't be in the moment when you have the conversations. Absolutely. hipping As the intended parents, right? Just between the couple or if you're a single person, right? Whoever your support system is, it's super important that, you know, that you sort of have these things lined up in the in the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. So that's just the communication, right? Little things such as, um you know, to your surrogate, are you comfortable if we are in the delivery room, right?
00:44:57
Speaker
And so our, both of ours, the the general rule was behind my shoulders, I'm comfortable. Like, like, like stand in the stand. You can hang out over here. Yeah, exactly. Um, you know, uh, and then again, the conversation about milk production and, and then a big one for us was to talk up front is, do you want to play a role in our child's life? And that doesn't mean raising the child, of course, but we want to have auntie a and auntie B. right, that that um that they know that they have someone out there that did this amazing thing for them. And so, you know, ah we just went for Thanksgiving. We called it the great surrogacy tour of 2023. Oh my gosh. like surrogate One's in Dallas, North Dallas, the other one's in San Antonio. And so, and Harold's sister's in Houston. So we went and we started, we went to Dallas and we went all the way down to San Antonio and then we came back up to Houston for Thanksgiving.
00:45:55
Speaker
And you know that was so great for our kids to see these wonderful women and you know and to have an ongoing dialogue. um And it helped us too to be able to, at a very early age, to normalize this for our children, right? They're friends in when they're even like three and four years old would say things like, Hey, why do you have two guys? Like, like you have two daddies. And, you know, and for us to at least have them understand the word surrogacy understand, you know, this sort of like the magic that takes place and and the doctor that helped
00:46:28
Speaker
Um, my daughter right now gets in, um, not fights, but she will say, you know, like, like if this didn't work, strong conversations, conversation, but we're also pro adoption, right? If this didn't work for us, adoption would have been another avenue that we would have taken. Sure. But you know, when you're, when you're a young child, especially when you come Not from the surrogacy journey you got a mom and a dad and so if there's anything other than that the assumption is that you must be adopted and so Maddie will say I'm not adopted I Came from surrogacy and of course the little kid who she's talking to is not gonna understand the difference and so, you know, it's not like Maddie's like
00:47:06
Speaker
I'm anti adoption.
Public Perception and Education
00:47:07
Speaker
It's just, I was not adopted. Right, that's not her story yet. It's not her story, don't put that, you know, and so um it's just great that, and this has been going on since she was like five and six, you know, so so that's another piece of advice is, um you know, nothing is secret in this world and so more, right? It's really important that you don't put that sort of secrecy on it, because then it suddenly becomes, well, it's a story you have to tell your child or you have to reveal. Even if there was no biological tie to either one of us, right like that would be something upfront that we would just talk about with our kids. So that's a piece of advice. that just Communication is is key.
00:47:48
Speaker
And it yeah it's awful kind of surprising to me the number of people who don't understand what a surrogate is. And that the term surrogate is a new term and not the same term as it was in biblical times. Sure. Yes. Like it kind of kind of joking. Mike's mom's old um but she'll you know So in the beginning, it took forever for her to realize she was like, what kind of woman just gives away her child? And we're like, well, mom, that's, that's not, that's not, that's not what's happening here. it been just It took a long time for her to grasp that concept. And we've run across other people just in society who kind of thought the same thing. So you've got to be prepared for a lot of
00:48:42
Speaker
unique on yeah once some cases. I will add to that one that I think is critical to me for something to to know ahead of time and kind of think through is I remember, I think the first time we went to Dr. Goldstein's office when we're filling out our purple paperwork at the fertility clinic, And you fill out the form that says, what do you want to do with your biological material? So sure either, either eggs, sperm, embryo, right?
00:49:17
Speaker
And so also remember this is key for, for probably people is when we did egg donation, it was not what people have the opportunity for now. It was only anonymous egg donation. We had no opportunity to meet our egg donor or know her name or any of it. Um, we went off of paperwork basically. Um, but they were like, okay, so. When we're done, you can dispose of your genetic material. You can donate it to science. I want to say that was the only two options or you can keep it or you can keep it for cryo storage. And so, you know, I remember like kind of being taken a little bit aback. I know Gail had told us about it, but.
00:50:10
Speaker
Like it was one of those things she said, but you know. it When you're in the midst of so much information, you kind of forget or kind of pick and choose and what you're going to focus on. Absolutely. You're aimed at a piece of paper. And so we're kind of looking at each other and we're like, well, you know, I don't want to, like, what's it mean to donate to science? And they were like, well, we'll, you know, we'll let someone test implanting an embryo in a woman that we know can't get pregnant. for a doctor to learn. We're like, okay, be like, I would be more comfortable doing that than disposal. Um, but then afterwards, um, you know, we have a, we, we didn't get into the story of Henderson and I don't know if this is maybe a good time to kind of talk on some of that because it's relevant. Um, I had fertility issues from, um, long-term testosterone injections when we switched from my,
00:51:09
Speaker
So, so clearly I wasn't in the picture when we were using genetically speaking. I was not part of that. yeah that's ground of home But all of a sudden when we switched to an egg donor, then I'm like, well, what about me? What about me? And he's like, well, I'm sorry, but I, this has been mine. And I'm like yeah ah roless like, the roles are different. So, you know, we, we were trying to, trying to, You know, maneuver that mid cycle, like how do we change bars? Um, which was again, an interesting path, right? So we end up, we end up saying, okay, we're just, we're going to go, we're going to do our sperm donations and then, you know, we'll wait till we're closer to the transfer and we'll we'll figure out what we're going to do. And we go to Dr. Goldstein, we do it. We literally leave. We are at the gas station outside of the airport, filling up the core to return it.
00:52:08
Speaker
And we get a phone call saying, we need you to come back to the office. We've had a problem. And like, what do you mean? And they were like, well, you need to come back and do another sperm donation. And I was like, why? And they were like, well, you had zero sperm count. So something must be wrong for another one. and And I know a lot about science and this was just a moment. I was just like, I just felt so stupid because I knew it. But until they said it, I go like the minute she said it, I go, no, I'm not going back. And she goes, you need to. I go, I'm wasting your time. Like I've been on testosterone therapy for 10 years. I'm fertile. Like I should have known this. Um,
00:52:50
Speaker
So they then I leave where like, they're like, you have time, go start fertility treatments, um, get off your testosterone, go through all this. Um, and so we are still trying to decide, you know, who's going to fertilize Maddie's eggs or the eggs for Maddie. Um, and it just, you didn't have to make the decision because my fertility doctor wasn't aggressive enough because he misunderstood the timeline. And so when it came time for the transfer, I still wasn't there. So Oh, gosh. And mean again, talk about just more of those bumps and things as you're just navigating all of this. Right. You know, I'm i'm sitting there, you know, feeling what the surrogate is feeling because I'm giving myself shots in the stomach every morning and every night. oh gosh yeah and All this stuff. It's a
00:53:45
Speaker
ends up working out great. you know We fertilized the batch of and of eggs that we have with me with Mike. We have a successful transfer. yeah And then you know we're talking and I was like, you're an only child of an only child. You know
Deciding on a Second Child
00:54:03
Speaker
the struggles of it. We care for his mom now. I was like, I'd be happy with one kid because I come from four. but Speaking as somebody who had the really large family. of the
00:54:16
Speaker
You're going to want more than one kid. Like you're going to feel better with this. So I was like, let's, let's plan on another process. And Mike was like, well, we'll deal with that later down the road. And I said, my dad taught me one thing I remember in my life. When someone offers you something you want, you take it now because it may not be there tomorrow. So we immediately reached out and Goldstein was able to get the egg donor to do a sibling um egg retrieval. retrieval ah hu And I told Mike, I was like, I'm just going to fertilize it. I'm going to get back from my testosterone. We're going to leave it on cryo. If we choose never to use it, it's there. But if we don't, we have it. And so a year after Maddie was born, we kind of then start the process of trying to have Henry.
00:55:08
Speaker
Um, and like he he mentioned, we went through two miscarriages yeah and that that was, that was very trying and hard. And then by then the, I'm going to call it the market because I don't know the term for it, but the market changed. And when we started with Maddie, it was a very, um, IP. friendly environment to where the IPs were making lots of different decisions. And right yeah and then it shifted to a surrogate a market to where there were so much fewer surrogates that they were more picking their IPs than their IPs picking them. um And so it was getting harder to to find someone that were just at that particular period, there were less surrogates on the market. um And
00:55:59
Speaker
we had a few that were presented and none of them were kind of just matching. um Or again, we were having some making finances work. And so when we, when we had to switch surrogates, we were going through the same thing again. And, um, Gail called me one day and I was walking through Lowe's. And she was like, you know, I've got a surrogate who I never thought would do a journey again. She has always wanted to do this, but really just didn't have the experience she was hoping for. And, um you know, ah all of a sudden she butt dialed me yesterday. and and And she goes, you know, Gail, I want to do this again.
00:56:49
Speaker
And she was like, are you, are you sure? And she goes, yeah because you know, I've wanted to do this since I was 18. She said this, my first journey did not go as I was hoping. Um, but I'm going to have the experience that I've dreamed about. And she goes, I'm willing to try again. And, um, Gail goes, okay. And so kind of talking and she goes, you know, I've got, I've got two guys that might you know, might be interested. And she was like, guys, that's perfect. Because I love it. She was so perfect. And so Gail called me and we were kind of talking and I was kind of leery on a couple of things. And then Gail said, it was like, when is she available? Because she had not long before had her certification journey. Sure.
00:57:41
Speaker
November 16th, I think. And I i remember like stopping in Lowe's and sitting down like wherever I was, I just sat and I was like, are you certain? And she goes, I'm pretty sure. And I said, I've got to get on the phone with Mike. I said, but I need you to call her back and I want absolute confirmation that November 16th is the date that her doctor has said she's first available for a transfer. Um, and so she was like, you know, Gail just knew I was a little peculiar in some things. did She just says, sure, no problem. but Um, and so I called Mike and talked to him and then Gail calls me back and she was like, yeah, Nope. I was right. November 16th. And I was like, I started crying and I was like,
00:58:33
Speaker
Done. I said that was the successful transfer date formatting after all of our transfers. And then now after two miscarriages, I was like, we were questioning it, but this is a sign we're going to, we're going to again, more signs, more signs. And, and we transferred on November 16th and our children's birthdays are six days apart. Oh my gosh. So yeah. So it was one of those things that just yeah kind of, you know, doors align and you know, when things are kind of going. Yeah. Yeah. But I did, I did get sidetracked, which I do all the time. Um, but my, my main caution was, um,
00:59:22
Speaker
back to the determining what you're going to do with your genetic material. Yeah. Have that conversation between the the parents or if it's a single person. Think about it. put significant time and effort into that decision. um And we're going to speak from experience because we have a almost nine and six year old and we are paying to store one embryo of mics and two of three of mine.
00:59:57
Speaker
because we know we're not having a third child. There's no way we're gonna be outnumbered. Yeah, no, it sounds like that's a pretty strong team you're you're you know in the same house with. Well, always ask us if we're doing this again. And our, our word response is we can't have accidents. And so everyone has to be a third in our household. Um, so, but we still are struggling with what do we do? Because clearly don't want to get rid of material. Like not going to do that, but I'm still really torn because.
01:00:39
Speaker
It's such a personal decision. And it just, yeah, and it's hard. It's hard to navigate that. If, if multiple amazing women wouldn't have given us part of themselves, we wouldn't have children. And so for me, it's like, there's someone out there that could use an embryo, I'm sure. But at the same time, then it makes it complicated, right? I i have a genetic child out there that I now know
Legacy and Gratitude
01:01:10
Speaker
about. I now need to tell my child that there's literally no sibling. And so we've just not been able to make that decision. And so um I think we could have, if we would have had that conversation at the beginning, I think we would have been better prepared. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and yeah, and again, like that's such a,
01:01:36
Speaker
everyone's gonna have their own thoughts behind it and and just all of the things but you're right it's so it's so hard to think about that and I mean and again the the expense of it like you know if you're thinking about it from a logistical standpoint like we keep waiting on this decision and you know the kiddos are just keep getting older and all the everything changes right like I tell you when we first started it was dispose or donate to science. They didn't do embryo adoption when we did our first, you know, so that wasn't even an option. And now, now with the crazy overturning of Roe and the crazy options of laws, you, you don't know if you're going to
01:02:29
Speaker
be forced into keeping embryos so. Sure, just the world keeps. More complicated. Yeah, and it's tough to navigate with a constantly changing, you know, just situation. Yeah, for sure. No, that's amazing. that's That's amazing advice. And definitely, I mean, and I appreciate you being so open and vulnerable and sharing that the, you know, even after you've kind of in a, you know, you've had your quote, happy ending as far as you're two beautiful, amazing children. it's still something. It's still part of that journey that is kind of there. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, okay. So my, my final question. Um, and it's a fun one. And again, you guys, I'm just, I'm so grateful that you guys, um, you know, shared and we're so vulnerable and I mean, such a beautiful story. And
01:03:22
Speaker
have been in this seat, you know, getting to look back and and kind of having that hindsight and sharing those those moments. But my final question to you for anyone who knows me, they know that I have a very codependent relationship with coffee. And so I always love to ask what filled your cup, whether it's literally or figuratively, what was the thing that has filled your cup?
01:03:50
Speaker
Oh my gosh. um
01:03:56
Speaker
though The one thing about the cup, I think you may know what I'm about to say with you. I'm a pretty out of person. My cup is going to run it over and there's days you're going to turn it upside down like Please just give me a little drop in there today, kids. I just can't. But, you know, when it's it's the it's these little connective moments for me, right? Like I'm teaching a university and when my son comes home and suddenly out of the blue is able to read words, right? ah
01:04:29
Speaker
You know, and I'm like, wait, are you just because my daughter used to just memorize things we would say to her? Oh, make sure. Regurgitate it back. Right. And I was like, are you really reading? Are you just with him remembering? Yeah, a few pages. I mean, these are the moments that really does fill up your cup where you realize this is someone who you are helping to support. You know, I've been reading to him and of course to Maddie as well, you know, at bedtime and They're taking these things in and then eventually their teachers in school are putting the connective tissue that you've put in place. They've connected it in a way in which you're like, wow.
01:05:06
Speaker
kids are actually going to make it. Like we're, we're not the worst guys in the world. Like we're, you know, but Dorito, Dustin, all they're going to make it happy cup kind of day when that, when that happens. Um, but yeah, for for me, it's those, it's those moments as a little developmental milestones where you're, where you're like, okay. And, and our son is really huggy. And so when he comes up and gives you the hug, and then our daughter um you know she's almost nine and so she's fighting with this independence and she's always been very strong but you know last night she she fell we got hardwood floors and she was wearing socks and down she went and she bumped her elbow and when she bumps her elbow
01:05:46
Speaker
and and she runs to you. You can tell that it's an it's an instinct in that moment. It's not her making a choice to run to you, it's her just reacting and coming to you, and you're you're caring for her. you know Clearly I don't want her to hurt herself, but when when she- Sure, but your comfort, your home, yeah.
Conclusion and Community Engagement
01:06:05
Speaker
That's for me. Yeah. um i think I think mine are similar. um
01:06:13
Speaker
And I think it's, it's no matter what, when we have struggles and parenting, parenting is very hard some days. Yes, it is. Especially when you're a Taipei personality who thinks things should always be in place and there is logic and control and you're little humans with underdeveloped brains. There it is, yeah. You've got no control over anything. um that they still love you even when you make mistakes. um And there are wonderful support systems out there for, you know, we've reached out and done, you know, family therapy things to help us get through points where we were struggling and, you know, to have our therapist look at us and say, I know you think you're messing up.
01:07:06
Speaker
I know you think you're, you're not a good parent and your biggest problem is your expectations of yourself because you're doing a fine job and your kids are great. yeah So, you know, get support where you can, cause it's definitely out there. Well, again, just more of that village, right? You had that village to get there and we have that village moving forward. Oh, my goodness. Well, again, thank you guys so much. And I'm just I'm, I'm so grateful that even in the stage that you guys are in, um that we still get to, you know, just meet back up and and see how your world is. And your beautiful, sweet family and just so grateful for
01:07:57
Speaker
your wisdom and support um to those who are in where you guys were 10 plus years ago. yeah It was great, Whitney. Thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Me, You, and Who. We appreciate your time and hope you enjoyed our discussion today. As we wrap, we would like to remind you of some of the ways that you can stay connected with us and be part of the Me, You, and Who podcast community. Firstly, if you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform.
01:08:36
Speaker
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01:09:15
Speaker
If you're interested in finding out more about creating a happy family, please visit us at www.createahappiefamily.com. Thank you again for being part of the me, you and who community. Your support means the world to us. I can't wait for you to join us next time as we continue to share stories and journeys of creating happy families.