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S2E19: Who? The Founding Director of The Center for Family Building
52 Plays1 month ago
On today's episode we sit down with Lisa Schuman, a licensed clinical social worker specializing in fertility and the founding director of The Center for Family Building. Lisa, co-author of *Building Your Family: The Complete Guide to Donor Conception*, shares her personal journey with infertility and how it led her to dedicate her career to this field.
Our conversation covers the evolution of reproductive technology and the essential role psychological support plays throughout the process. Lisa offers a deep dive into the therapist's role in surrogacy and egg donation, and also provides valuable advice on discussing donor conception with children and family members, along with resources for ongoing support.
Tune in for an enlightening discussion packed with practical advice that will resonate with those that are on a journey or have a loved one that is growing there family in this way.
Takeaways
- Reproductive technology has evolved significantly, offering more options and higher success rates.
- Psychological support is crucial throughout the reproductive journey for all parties involved.
- It is recommended that Intended parents establish a strong relationship with their surrogate or egg donor, including regular communication and shared experiences.
- Finding a qualified therapist who is not affiliated with the agency is important for unbiased support.
- Open and honest communication is crucial in the family building process, and should be established from the beginning.
- It is important to consider the long-term implications of decisions made in the family building process, such as the impact on relationships and the child's understanding of their origins.
- Building a supportive community of individuals going through similar experiences can provide valuable support and resources.
- Having conversations about donor conception with children and family members should start early and be ongoing, tailored to the child's personality and needs.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, everyone. On today's episode, I get to speak with Lisa Schumann. Lisa is a licensed clinical social worker specializing in fertility and the founding director of the Center for Family Building. Lisa's name might be familiar to you because she is the co-author of the book Building Your Family, The Complete Guide to Donor Conception, along with Dr. Mark Leon-Dearest, who was a guest on our podcast.
00:00:28
Speaker
Lisa brings a wealth of knowledge and personal experience to the table, sharing her journey with infertility and how it inspired her to work in this field. In our conversation, we explore the evolution of reproductive technology and the crucial role of the psychological support in the process. Lisa delves into the therapist's role in surrogacy and egg donation and we talk a lot about building the relationship between all parties during the journey and the importance of communication. Lisa also provides valuable insights on discussing donor conception with children and family members, along with resources for further support. And after this episode, if you want to hear more from Lisa, go check her out on her podcast, Building Your Family.
00:01:15
Speaker
So join us for this enlightening conversation filled with practical advice and heartfelt stories. Enjoy me, you, and who.
00:01:26
Speaker
Who knew it would take more than two people to have a baby? In a world where infertility is no longer a taboo topic, this podcast will take you through all of the different aspects of surrogacy and egg donation through the lens of many who walk this journey in different ways. My name is Whitney Hall and I am a two-time Surrogate Now Turned Surrogacy Coordinator for Egg Donor and Surrogate Solutions.
00:01:51
Speaker
the very agency I used when I chose to carry for two amazing families. With this podcast, it is our goal to help guide and support you as you learn about what it takes to grow a family in an alternative way, as well as hear inspiring and beautiful stories of how this path has changed lives forever. We can't wait for you to hear about just one more way happy families are created every day.
00:02:21
Speaker
Hi, Lisa. Thank you so much for being here. Hi, Wendy. Thank you for having me. This is so exciting. I know you were just your days are so full. So I'm so grateful for your time. And I'm just so excited to get to talk to you about you know just all things that we're both passionate about, which is you know third party and all of the fun that's around it.
00:02:44
Speaker
Happy to talk about it. Thank you. Yes. So pumped. Okay. So Lisa, you are a licensed clinical social worker, but specifically kind of in the world of reproduction, but like, what does that mean? And how did you even get here? Oh gosh. Um, well, uh, I was working at, I was working as a therapist when I had fertility problems and my doctor at the time, this is decades many decades ago, my doctor said, you know, I think you'd be really interested in this field, knowing you and and all of that. Why don't you go to ASRM and check it out and see if you're interested and get some training. And so I did, you know, did kind of try to do all the right things, all the formal training that's really important.
00:03:36
Speaker
um And then I decided I liked it. And so I started working for his practice and I worked for a large practice after that in New York City. And then I moved to a large practice in Connecticut. And now I i started the Center for Family Building to help people kind of on a wider scale as I move into my older chapter of life. Older chapter, oh my goodness. No, that's amazing. So with your own journey,
00:04:06
Speaker
Was that kind of what drew you in? You were experiencing it as well. And then ah or were you kind of doing those two things separately? Well, yes. I mean, I, I had infertility. I've had every infertility problem we can imagine. I've been through, you know, surrogacy. I've been through IVF. I've been through multiple surgeries. I've been through every kind of like immunology treatment because that was popular back then adoption. I mean, you name it. So.
00:04:35
Speaker
um I really understood the difficulty, but I also understood that the science is so fascinating and it's constantly changing and it's so important to stay on top of all of these things. So I really enjoyed that about it as well.
00:04:50
Speaker
Sure, sure. I think you used the phrase, um, it was, it was, it's actually on your website, which I love so much. It's, I can talk the talk, but I have also walked the walk. And I think, you know, you have, you've experienced, you know, just all the the different aspects of things. And I know it's been, you know, you've been in the industry for over three decades. How has, you know, what evolution have you seen?
00:05:17
Speaker
in your time in this industry as far as just kind of the psychological aspects and the importance of that because I think some of the things you know I know for me as a surrogate um you know when I was going through my journeys I was really focused on kind of the body aspect and a lot of people are a lot of intended parents are thinking about that medical screening appointment and you know just and those surgeries and things and not everybody's necessarily you know they're kind of maybe wanting to check the box when it comes to the psychological evaluation or really just their mental health as they're going through infertility. So what's kind of that evolution that you've seen throughout? Well first of all the technology has changed tremendously I mean most people don't realize but when I went through fertility treatment
00:06:01
Speaker
we were you know transferring like three day two embryos. I mean, that was, and we had, even with that, we had like a 20% chance. So the technology has changed completely. There was no PGT, it didn't exist. There was no blastocyst. There was nothing nothing like that. It was a whole different world. And surrogacy was not legal in New York. um In fact, it was um not legal until a few years ago, as you probably know. Very recent, yes.
00:06:28
Speaker
And so I worked in Connecticut, as I mentioned, um you know, for a long time. And so I saw so many surrogacy cases in Connecticut. I was the only therapist asked to state, to testify before the State Senate Judiciary Committee to legalize surrogacy in New York. You weren't. I so want to talk about that. It was really thrilling. And it's so nice now that we have surrogacy in New York. But when I pursued surrogacy,
00:06:53
Speaker
It wasn't available. And so it was really a nightmare. The contracts were a mess. And there were people trying to take advantage and all sorts of things going on. But um back then, it was pretty clear that therapists really needed to be really well trained and attend ASRM and understand the technology and understand. And now, sadly, you know there's a lot of therapists who just kind of like,
00:07:22
Speaker
pay their dues and say they're members of ASRM but are not really involved or don't get training. And there's coaches that are not really helpful because they only talk about their experience. So I really, it's unfortunate that people just want to check this box and there are more groups of therapists who are just selling themselves to clinics as a fast and cheap way of getting through these processes. But it's so important for the surrogate, for the egg donor and for the intended parents to have a ah a very good qualified mental health professional who can help them through this journey because I see people later who have so many difficulties and they so look back and say, you know, I wish I had known things that I don't know, you know, that I've had to find out the hard way. So it's it's really important to make sure that everything um is done properly in the beginning.
00:08:16
Speaker
Sure, absolutely. No, for sure. So going back to, you know, how would an intended parent agency, gestational carrier or donor kind of maybe navigate knowing, okay, it says on your website that you're ASRM approved or you know I do want to kind of just check that box but really you know I know we all hope and pray that everybody's surrogacy journey is beautiful and wonderful but sometimes you know things come up then you kind of have to maybe you know navigate some things and if you don't have maybe that professional
00:08:49
Speaker
that you maybe had way back when to help you maybe mediate some of those things. You kind of are either, hopefully you're not doing this independently because I feel like you always need a team, but you know, your coordinator's either helping you or you're you're trying to navigate all that. So how would someone kind of set that up successfully? Well, I think first of all, it's really important for them to have to find a therapist who's not hired by the agency because of course that's kind of like the fox guarding the hen house, you need somebody objective, right? Because then that therapist is incentivized to pass everyone. um And you don't want that to happen. You want to make sure that if there's an issue that they really try to deal with it. And also I think, you know, just like you wouldn't go to a doctor who's just operated on two people, you you don't want to go to a therapist who isn't well trained and well skilled and has seen many, many cases.
00:09:43
Speaker
And so it's important to ask the therapists what their experience is and you know where they got their training and how often they attend these continuing education programs at ASRM or Jefferson Conference or you know any of those. It's really important for them to stay on top of these things because as you know, the field is always changing and there's so much to be um to to be gained by really making sure that you understand what's happening in the field and what's happening in your particular journey. Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say is the difference? Because I can speak to our agency. We don't hire, um, you know, uh, clinical social workers or therapists or or anything like that, but you definitely have, you know, in-house therapists. I know you said you mentioned you were in-house. What's the difference? So I was in-house in a clinic. So the clinic doesn't really have any,
00:10:36
Speaker
stake in what surrogate they use, right? But the agency does. So if you're in-house at a clinic, that's a different story because then it doesn't really matter. you're Your clinic wants you to be matched with the best surrogate, right? But if you're in if the therapist is in-house at an agency, of course they're going to be incentivized to approve their own surrogates, right? so um so Right. So that that difference is this idea of this in-house person versus, hey, you're in California and you're in Florida. We're going to look to find therapists that are you know licensed in those areas. license in those cases Right. and Yes, exactly. Okay, perfect. No, that makes a ton of sense. So what would you say is maybe kind of
00:11:23
Speaker
the vital things. you're We get to that point, we found the the best professional for us and you're about to go on this journey. What would you say are maybe kind of some of those vital things that are important to think about as you're starting on a journey either with a surrogate or with an egg donor um as an intended parent and then vice versa?
00:11:48
Speaker
So I guess we could start start with the surrogates. i can I'll mention one thing in the beginning and one thing closer to the end. So um with the surrogates, I think it's really helpful ah to establish a weekly Zoom call. And people think that's kind of old fashioned and why we don't. And we can text each other and everything's fine. And I think that's true sometimes. And sometimes it works out fine.
00:12:14
Speaker
But sometimes it doesn't, right? And some relationships really need time to evolve. And even though typically, and you know this, that you meet your surrogate ah you know on your match call for the first time, and usually everybody falls in love with each other, right? Because it's it feels like the perfect match. The surrogate so is this wonderful person who's doing this incredible thing for another family.
00:12:37
Speaker
And all she wants to do is help them. And they are suffering. And all they want is help. And so it feels like the perfect match. Everybody's on the same page. Everybody falls in love with each other. But it's really more like an arranged marriage, right? They don't we have a history together. They don't know each other from high school. They don't have similar friends. And maybe they have this you know attraction to each other because they're so happy they found each other, which is beautiful.
00:13:04
Speaker
by They don't really know each other that well. And in the beginning, it's it's not something that you think about a whole lot because you're busy with the contracts, with the doctor's visits, with talking to each other and getting to know each other, with you know doing the having the transfer, the ultrasound, whatever it is.
00:13:23
Speaker
So it's a really busy time in the beginning, but as the pregnancy progresses, it gets quiet, right? Your pregnancy is quiet in the middle. um The doctor doesn't really need to see you all the time. And when that happens, sometimes people who establish their relationship based upon that initial attraction, their relationship starts to dissipate a little bit because before they realize it, all of a sudden,
00:13:50
Speaker
They're not talking as much. So maybe in the beginning they got to know each other's kids and dogs and what they make for dinner and all these sorts of things. And then now, you know you know, you're in the middle of the pregnancy and everything's quiet. So the surrogate calls and says, oh, i you know, I want to let you know. The doctor said everything's fine. Maybe the intended parents say,
00:14:13
Speaker
how how are you feeling, how's, you know, your swollen feet. And then all of a sudden, the surrogate can start to feel objectified because she starts to feel like, you know, these people used to always ask me about my kids or about my husband's job or whatever. And now we're just talking about the surrogacy and that doesn't feel so good, right? I feel like I'm like a uterus for hire. And at the same time, the intended parents might start to feel disconnected from their surrogate because All of a sudden she's gone back to her life. She's really busy. She knows how to do this. She's had babies before, you know, it's very quiet. She gets it. But for them, this is all like new and exciting and they don't feel as in touch as, you know, when they were first going through this journey and they had a million. So one way to resolve that is if you start in the beginning, having these weekly Zoom calls, what happens is kind of like the same sort of thing that happens when you
00:15:11
Speaker
meet somebody at a new job. Like let's say you meet somebody at a new job and you think that that person is fine. Maybe they're, you know, interesting. They said something interesting in the meeting, but you're not best friends with them.
00:15:23
Speaker
So you see them in the hallway, you see them at the Christmas party, you see them in the washroom. And then one day you sit next to them in a room and now you feel like comfortable with them, right? And it's because you saw them face to face over and over and over again. So they don't feel like a stranger to you anymore. You've seen them face to face. So if you do that in the beginning with your surrogate,
00:15:46
Speaker
And every week you're talking about like every week, what did you make for dinner? or What have you been watching on Netflix? How are the kids doing? How did, you know, the softball practice go, blah, blah, whatever it is. By the time you get to the middle of the pregnancy, you guys are really tight. And now, even if you have some distance, you can connect back to that relationship that you've established in the beginning.
00:16:11
Speaker
And so you don't just feel like the surrogate and the intended parents don't feel as disconnected. And so number one, that's better for the journey. Number two, I think it's better because you want to establish a good relationship because you're going to have a relationship hopefully in the future. And third for the child, right? So I have um a life book. I don't know if um you know about, I have a book. Yes, yes. Show it, there it is. What's that life book?
00:16:39
Speaker
It's on its Amazon, yeah, and it's about um how to how to chronicle your journey. So if you have some nice experiences during your journey and you want to put them, you know, in these mementos and these experiences together, it's so nice for your child to read it when they're little, you know, or even as they grow up. It's so nice for them to hear about all these details about your journey that maybe you've forgotten about or mementos that you've collected along the way.
00:17:05
Speaker
So for all of those reasons, I think even though it feels a little bit cumbersome, it's nice to start with that weekly Zoom call. No, for sure. That is such great and and practical advice. And I think you you say it on your website in reference to the Lifebook is every kid loves to hear their story, um you know no matter no matter how they get here. And so having those details, I know my kiddos ask me all the time, you know what was my first word? When did I do this? And, you know, at the time I was like, Oh, yeah, I've got to remember to write that down and older, the older and older I get, I'm like, Oh, hold on. I really have to think about this. So i think some a resource like that is so super helpful. But going back to, I think what you said is beautiful, because it is establishing that that relationship early. And yes, you may have met in this, you know, I love that reference, arranged marriage type.
00:17:55
Speaker
situation. um you know Although um you all may pick each other, you like you said, you didn't necessarily know each other until this process. And so being able to establish not just that you know we have this one purpose and one goal, it's now evolving that relationship. So going back just a touch even before that, what are some things that you think everybody needs to keep in mind when they're even getting started in this process as far as from that perspective of, you know, I know you can speak personally, you know, from the perspective of an intended parent, but obviously knowing everything that you know, what do you think are some of those things that people need to keep in mind before they even get started on that journey and those weekly Zoom calls?
00:18:41
Speaker
Well, I think it's important for them to really feel comfortable with their agency. um I think it's important for them to to really think about how they're going to kind of manage all of it. It's a lot to think about and also it's very expensive. And so families really need to think about how they're going to pay for it. And also, you know, their clinic, they have to make sure that their clinic is a clinic that is familiar with surrogacy that's going to do all, you know, again, kind of follow the ASRM recommendations about making sure that everything gets done the way that it's supposed to get done. So I think that's really important ah to do. Okay. Perfect. So yes, obviously being, um, you know, you're building that team, agency clinic, being comfortable with everybody, everybody being on the same page.
00:19:31
Speaker
from a gestational carrier, what are some things that you think would be super helpful to kind of be aware of as you're just getting started? You already said this person is already so amazing. She wants to do this really big, huge thing to help a family. Um, and I think it's so easy, especially in the world of, you know, social media and podcasts and fun pictures and things like that. You kind of get to see all of the fun that's part of the process, but there's so much happening in between those big milestone pictures.
00:19:59
Speaker
So what are maybe some things that a gestational carrier or a donor needs to keep in mind when they've decided to move forward in this process? I think what's most helpful before you get started on your journey is to really think about two issues. So number one, I don't think that you can list every single issue on a few pieces of paper. It's just not possible, right? There's so many things that people have tragedies in life, problems that people have You can't imagine every single scenario. And then secondly, there's a lot of gray area, right? Like people say, well, I'm going go to take the doctor's advice, but the doctor's never going to tell you what to do, right? Because some people might say, well, if there's a 20% chance of a problem, that's too risky for me. Other people would say, oh, 20%, that's not a big deal. I want to go ahead with it.
00:20:52
Speaker
so a doctor's never going to say, you must do this. They're going to tell you what the chances are of this issue. And then you're going to have to make a decision. And so then how do four people decide that? I think it's impossible. So I think a better strategy for everyone is to think about both of those issues in two buckets. So one would be what is happening in the gestational carrier's body
00:21:23
Speaker
is her business. That is entirely up to her. She has to take care of herself for her health, for herself, for her family. But when it comes to the intended parents, they have to decide, can I parent this child or not? Because the gestational carrier is not going to parent the child, right? So I think that we have to kind of think about all of these issues in those two buckets. And if the gestational carrier, and not everybody can,
00:21:53
Speaker
If the gestational carrier says, no, I can't think about it that way, I can't, anything that happens to me in my body is still 100% has to be my decision, even if it's about just about the baby and it's not gonna affect my health at all, then they have to have that discussion because that's gonna change the whole landscape of what could potentially happen if there's an issue. If the gestational carrier says,
00:22:19
Speaker
Yes, i can I can accept that this is your baby. You're gonna have to parent this child for the rest of your life. You have to decide, can you live with this disability? Can you live with this problem? I'm gonna go home to my kids. I'm not goingnna have to i'm never have to deal with this. So if she can if she feels that way, then the intended parents can make that decision on their own. So I think it's better to kind of think about that ahead of time. And then if God forbid there's an issue, everybody knows how to handle it when the time comes.
00:22:48
Speaker
No, i completely I completely agree. And I think that that's where you go back to you know when you're building your team and looking at the agency and asking those questions. Because I know for us, those are big questions that we ask in the application process. And before you even get to contracts, medical screenings, psychological evaluation, we're asking those questions in the very beginning because we don't want you guys to fall in love with each other. And then all of a sudden, or heaven forbid, you're at that precipice and you're having to make these big huge decisions. And just kidding. You had really, really thought about it, but it's great to keep that in mind when you're even just thinking in the very beginning that you were wanting to move forward in this process and being aware of all of those things, which is why.
00:23:32
Speaker
you know, it's going to have those in that beginning stage to really sit there and think about, like you said, you know, well, at the end of the day, I'm going home to my family or can I parent this child or, you know, just things like that. So no, that's super, super helpful. What else? Everything else I think is gravy. You know, lots of people say, oh, I think it's very good who's, you know, who lives next door to me or lives in my town. And that's nice if you can have it.
00:23:57
Speaker
all surrogates were the same, then that's fine, but not all surrogates are the same, right? The person who's the right match for you might be states away from from you, yeah and it's really worth the plane flight just so that you so that you can have the right surrogate for you. No, for sure, for sure. So you mentioned you know egg donation, totally different ball game when it comes to deciding you know just being that person and deciding that that's how you want to help someone. What are kind of your thoughts behind whenever you're navigating that from that perspective?
00:24:33
Speaker
So, and well, there's so many things. Sure. so Everyone should You well. But yes, you two co-wrote that amazing book, which I feel like is so, so helpful. Can be overwhelming. Take it in spots for sure.
00:24:58
Speaker
yeah So there's a whole book about it, and there's so many things to think about. It's really worthwhile getting educated and making sure you know that you think about these things ahead of time, just like this so your surrogacy journey. Because if you don't think about issues ahead of time, it's very hard to unwind them. I mean, yes, it's easier to break a match with your surrogate than if you are pregnant with it you know an egg donor's um with an egg donor, a baby created with an egg donor, and you know, you find out that there's some psychiatric issue, of course, that you can't unwind. So it's really important to think about that, I think. Think about really educating yourself before you move down this path, because they're lifetime decisions you're making. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So in kind of egg donor world, you know, things are so different from
00:25:55
Speaker
way back when everything used to be anonymous and now there's no such thing as anonymity anymore. How do you think, what's kind of your advice for intended panic parents as they're navigating, you know, just, okay, I have a donor conceived child. This is part of their story. How are we going to Have those conversations, talk to family about it, things like that. And maybe also from the egg donor, OK, you you know made this big, huge choice. And you know what does that look like 10 years from now? And maybe somebody is reaching out to you and asking about medical information. Or is it more of a relationship? Just that whole thing in general. What do what are some of kind of your thoughts behind that and how to navigate those big things? Well, I do have, um on my podcast podcast, Building Your Family, a four-step process
00:26:45
Speaker
to helping children understand their origins. But we know now um that it's really important for children to know from day one. So, you know, in the 19... Early and often. Early and often. Right. It's an adoption, right? In the 1950s, there were a large number of children who were adopted in the US. And we saw over decades that as they grew up, they said, you know, I really wish my parents had told me when I was in the crib because even Even though people say, I'm so nervous about talking to my child when there are babies, the truth is you have to get comfortable with it. You have to start to tell the story over and over again and start to rehearse it just like you know you would a presentation at work because we get the kinks out. And many people feel uncomfortable talking to their children about something that feels so foreign to them, something that feels exciting producing. you know If they're a same sex couple, maybe they think about it was stressful,
00:27:44
Speaker
starting treatment or finding a donor. If they're infertility patients, maybe they think I've had losses and this brings up so many feelings for me about a loss or about failed IVF or not using my genetics. There's always some kind of feeling about it. And so as people start to think about it, they're going to get anxious and that will cause them to delay telling. And instead, if they can start, even when they're first pregnant,
00:28:13
Speaker
talking about it with their partner and I kind of go through this ah process in my podcast. If you go through this process of thinking about all the things that are important to share with your child, then you can start to talk about it. You can start to try on some different narratives, then you can start to mold it, then you and your partner can toss some ideas around before your child knows what you're talking about because that way you can have your tears, you can stumble over your words,
00:28:44
Speaker
You can feel anxious and it doesn't matter. And then by the time that your child finally understands what you're saying, you've said it a thousand times and it just rolls off your tongue very easily. And that way it just becomes part of the backdrop of their life because we see, just like with the adopted children, we see now with donor conceived children, the research is showing the same thing that children prefer to know from day one.
00:29:10
Speaker
in almost all the cases where we see that there are people who have a lot of difficulty with their narrative, they've either learned accidentally or late about their origins. And so those that it's very disconcerting for them and they feel very upset about it and they feel like their parents lied to them. So if it just becomes part of who they are and their parents just explain it to them so that they could understand it comfortably then it just becomes part of their identity formation. And it's much easier for them. And it's hard for parents to wrap their head around that, but it's really important to think about. No, for sure. So for the parent who, you know, they're listening now, their kiddo is three years old, or maybe their kiddo is 13 years old. What would you say, okay, they didn't necessarily get that practice? How, what would you say is the best way to navigate that? So
00:30:08
Speaker
You know, it's not it's never too early, but it's also never too late. So I've worked with a lot of families who haven't told their kids, and then then they have to deal with this as teenagers. So as the kids get older, you really need to think about their personality type. I run um a workshop called Tip Top. It's a program for children who are donor conceived. It started as an adoption program, and then we started to add on the donor conception program. And it helps children understand who they're going to talk to about their story, when they want to talk about it, and how they want to talk about it. What's it going to mean for them? Because just like adults, kids are all different, right? Everybody has a different personality. Some kids are soapbox kids, they want to tell the world everything. Right? So, you know, as your kid gets older, you want to think about their particular personality.
00:31:03
Speaker
and what's gonna be important for them, right? When you're but you're a kid who likes to tell the world everything, you may not mind if your whole community knows, but if you're a kid who's more private, maybe you just want your family to know the details of your donor conception, or maybe you just want you know your family to know the details of who's genetically related to you and who's not in the in the couple.
00:31:28
Speaker
so As the kids get older, there' there are more considerations to think about, and we could always work on that with couples individually, but certainly it's really important. If your kid's three or four years old, you know even older, even if they're five, then you can start to make the lifebook with them. I have like a little video on my website um where you can see kids who like to do this together with their parents, and their parents can start to share with them what their origins were like and what their experience was. The kids can can collaborate with them on their on their lifebook. But if they're older, then that's a big conversation. You really need to think about the child and their personality and who they are and what it means to them.
00:32:15
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And again, that's where those wonderful, fantastic mental health professionals come into play for sure. And just all of those resources as you're navigating that. No, that's amazing. So beyond just maybe that one-on-one, ah going back just beyond maybe that one-on-one consultation,
00:32:38
Speaker
that you're having as an intended parent, carrier, egg donor from the very beginning and you know you're you're figuring out if this is right for you and things like that. What would you say or maybe, and you've mentioned your wonderful books and I know you have your gorgeous website, what are some other resources that you would recommend for intended parents or carriers or donors as they're navigating this process? Well, hopefully by the time this airs, I'll have um my platform up. i'm ah So many people have come to me because I do have consulting services and a customer service also. And so many people have been asking for more information and support around these issues, particularly to have not just education, but also to have a community. And so um I've decided to start a platform for people who want to start developing this membership experience with other people who are going through the same thing.
00:33:38
Speaker
where they can access all my videos, where they can access lots of information. So hopefully by this fall, that will be up and running and everyone can access that. Oh, that's a great resource. That's wonderful. And miss that community, that community is so important. I think, you know, in and so many people that I've had the opportunity to speak to, it's hard. You have some people who really do want to keep it small and then you have others who are just looking to try and find those who are navigating this process and that community aspect is so super important. So that's amazing that you will have that resource for sure. So what would you say in the decades that you have been in this you know just field and all of the wonderful things that you have gotten to do and been a part of, what would you say is maybe one of the you know just favorite things about what you do? Baby pictures. Baby pictures. That's what I always say, right?
00:34:39
Speaker
That's the best. That is the best. Oh, you're so right. You're so right. I also feel successful and happy. And um you know it's not always easy for everyone. like Lots of people have a lot of bumps in the road. And so when people can finally have their families, it's beautiful. And and especially if they have a good journey. I mean, if they have a surrogate that they really feel connected to,
00:35:09
Speaker
if they have a donor that they can feel connected to. Those are all you know the icing on the cake because those are so so so nice. i mean I think that our world has changed so much. you know Building the modern family is a different experience now and sure people have these networks of people that are kind of like their chosen family. and so and over the last several decades, you know, ah when I was director of mental health services at Aloom and gay parents to be we saw a lot of families who came together in all different ways or maybe a gay male couple and their single, you know, friend who wants to be kind of an ant and the egg donor, or maybe somebody wants to be the gestational carrier and they're, you know, a cousin or maybe somebody wants to have
00:35:57
Speaker
you know, two there's two couples who I have i've just had on my podcast. There are two couples, a lesbian couple and then this gay male couple. And one in the of the people in the lesbian couple is going to be the surrogate for the um other couple. And they become like, you know, they're they've become very close friends and won can probably have a very tight relationship the rest of their lives. So it's really nice to be able to have those relationships, I think.
00:36:25
Speaker
Absolutely, absolutely. What would you say is maybe the hardest part about what you do?
00:36:34
Speaker
um
00:36:38
Speaker
I suppose when I can't help someone, um when it's it gets very, very difficult to help someone and have there are cases where it's been where people have had extremely bad luck or had very bad medical diagnoses or had all sorts of things that, you know, in life we we have unfortunate circumstances in the world. um People who had just terrible luck on their journey and it becomes very, very hard for them. So I do what I can to help everyone, but those stories are very sad. I mean, yeah for them to have, ah to struggle so much. I think the most frustrating
00:37:22
Speaker
thing for me is when people um end up in a situation where they come to me and they've already chosen a donor or chosen a surrogate and it's there's a problem. and And then I feel terrible. They've already gone through so much. And that that was one of the reasons I wrote this book is because I see so many people just kind of feeling like, yes, I want to get pregnant and I understand that.
00:37:50
Speaker
And there's a desire to kind of brush into it. But when we're anxious, we don't make good decisions all the time. And so we put in the book this five step process to choosing a donor, because usually when you are anxious, you do what feels most comfortable, not necessarily what makes sense. And um and that's just all all of us, right? we're it's We all reflexively want to avoid discomfort. That's the first thing we want to do, something looks scary to us or anxiety producing, we just try to focus on what's going to make us feel better. And there's nothing in our consciousness or our or our societal consciousness that teaches us how to have a relationship with a surrogate, how to have a relationship with her, how to, you know, do any of these things. Right. So we don't know. And all of a sudden we see this world where people kind of are having babies the old fashioned way and we have to do things differently.
00:38:48
Speaker
And it can be very anxiety producing, not to mention the fact that this is like the most intimate thing in your life, right? Having a baby. yeah And so you're having your family is so intimate and yet you have to go outside of your family to find people to help you. And that can feel really stressful for people to do. So I think they just want to kind of get it over with and check the box and just get pregnant already. And I i completely appreciate that. And I've been there, I understand.
00:39:16
Speaker
but I think it's good to kind of think about how can we make smart decisions along the way. Sure. Absolutely. Well, and again, that goes back to you. That's why it's so important to build that team by no meat. Like this team is here rooting for you. No one's trying to put the brakes on things, but everyone is trying to make sure that all those eyes are dotted and those tees are crossed and, you know, having the shots in the field surrounding you doing throughout the process is so important.
00:39:42
Speaker
So no, that makes a ton of sense. That is so super helpful. Well, my final question to you, and it's a fun one for anyone who knows me, they know that I have a very codependent relationship on coffee. And so I always love to ask, what is the thing that filled your cup this morning? Literally or figuratively, what was that thing that just brought you joy?
00:40:12
Speaker
This morning, specific? Yes. Let's do it. um I would say this podcast. This has been fun. Oh, thank you. so You filled my cup today. Oh, that is so wonderful. I'm so glad I filled your cup today. Well, thank you, Lisa. Well, we are going to definitely have um all of those resources um that you have provided in our show notes and um you know just all of those amazing books. i you know Again, I think it was it was a while ago when I got to speak with Mark, but um I truly enjoyed you know just reading
00:40:51
Speaker
the Building Your Family, the Complete Guide to Donor Conception and that Lifebook is so amazing and I'm looking forward to this platform that you're working on. I know that is going to just be so wonderful and I am so grateful for just your expertise in the industry over the course of many years and I know you have just helped so many families and so thank you so much for taking the time to be here with us.
00:41:16
Speaker
And thank you, Whitney. I appreciate all you do as well. you know It's really important to be so thoughtful. And I know you and your team are very thoughtful about everything you do in your agency. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome.
00:41:32
Speaker
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00:41:55
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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