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#95 Diana Walsh Pasulka - UFOs, Religion, Apparitions & More
787 Plays2 years ago
Diana Walsh Pasulka is a writer and professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina Wilmington. Pasulka has a B.A. from University of California, Davis, an M.A. from Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley, and a Ph.D. from Syracuse University. Her research focuses on religion and technology. Her books include American Cosmic and Heaven Can Wait.
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Transcript
Introduction to Anomalous Podcast Network
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Anomalous Podcast Network. Multiple voices, one phenomenon.
Guest Introduction: Diana Walsh-Pasolka
00:00:46
Speaker
Welcome back everybody to the channel. It is great to be here. I am really looking forward to this conversation. This is something that's been a long time coming and I'm just overwhelmed and
00:00:57
Speaker
Really happy that Diana is here today. I've had so many questions sent to me via all my different social media platforms and by email. If anybody here in the live chat does have a question, if you could pop it in capital letters so that I'm more likely to see it. And I will try to ask it, but I can't make any promises. I'm sure you understand.
00:01:18
Speaker
So yeah, if you could keep the chat cordial and polite, that would be good also. So let's get started. I'll just introduce our guest today. So Diana Wells-Pasolka is professor of religious history at the University of North Carolina Wilmington. After completing her undergraduate work at the University of California Davis, she earned a master's degree in systematic theology from the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, and later went on to receive a doctorate in religious studies from Syracuse University.
00:01:47
Speaker
She served as head religion advisor for the films The Conjuring and The Conjuring 2, and has received numerous grants and awards for research and applied learning, including sums from the Esalen Center in 2016 for research at Castel Gandolfo's Vatican Observatory, and in 2018 for ongoing research involving the Vatican and the Vatican archives. She is the author of two books, Heaven Can Wait, Purgatory and Catholic Devotional and Popular Culture, and American Cosmic, UFOs, Religion and Technology,
00:02:16
Speaker
Please welcome Diana Walsh-Pasolka. Diana, how are you doing? I'm doing well, Vinny. Thanks so much for having me on your show. It's an honor. It really is. Thank you so much for being here. Now, I thought we'd kick it off with kind of a broad question.
How Have UFO Perceptions Changed?
00:02:30
Speaker
I'd like to know how you feel or how you see the UFO subject as a whole now in 2022 compared to 10 years ago in 2012 when you first sort of entered this strange realm.
00:02:42
Speaker
This is such a great question. So I see it entirely differently. So I think all of us do, who follow the UFO, UAP disclosure movement, and just in general, everything is different. The landscape has changed entirely.
00:03:01
Speaker
um today earlier i was actually speaking with some people at my university who now they're very interested in my research they've i mean i've always been a good standing at my university and i think now with everything that's happened they're like wait a minute what is she doing and so i was speaking to a number of people who were in
00:03:20
Speaker
positions of assessing research. I've won the best grant at my university for research and things like that. But they really wanted kind of an overview of what was going on. So I sent them a bunch of information last week and then today I met with them and they just asked, you know,
00:03:42
Speaker
Wow, why is this happening now? Why is the government of the United States talking about this and why your book came out right at the beginning of something that seemed like it was a wave and didn't have anything to do with that?
00:03:59
Speaker
What do we think about this now? Do you believe in it? And you started your work where you're an atheist with respect to it. And how does the landscape look for you? So literally, I just came from that meeting to this conversation with you. And this is the question. I think this is the most important question to ask. What's happening now? Why is it big now? Why are people talking about it?
00:04:25
Speaker
I think because, and my answer was, and will be for you here, is what I see is that we have to talk about it now. We have no choice, especially our government and governments that are allied with the United States, especially with respect to the space programs. And I answer it this way because of these facts.
00:04:49
Speaker
When we started to look into space and we developed rocket technology to take us into space, there were really only two viable space programs, ours and Russia's. Now we have so many different countries who have technologies that are getting people into space and we have China's space program. And these are not necessarily allies, right? So I'm not saying that we're an adversarial
00:05:15
Speaker
arrangements with them with respect to space but they're going to be seen in space what we've been seeing all along and we can no longer say this is not happening and I think that that that so my answer is we have to talk about this now because other countries are going to start showing and talking and I think the United States had
00:05:36
Speaker
knew they needed to get on top of it. So that's my answer to
The Role of Technology in UFO Disclosure
00:05:40
Speaker
that question. I see it completely differently. I also see a lot of grassroots movement with people with technology, cell phones, the ability to upload information instantaneously and have people on the other side of the world see it.
00:05:56
Speaker
And a lot of the, you know, the social media platforms not having a handle on that, not being able to control that information. So I think a lot of the information is already just going to get out there. And therefore, transparency is now
00:06:14
Speaker
So there has to be some amount of transparency with respect to the fact that people are seeing things that aren't drones. People are seeing things that can't be put into the categories that we've put them in in terms of things in the sky. So I think that it's just a completely different scene than it was just 10 years ago, even just five years ago.
00:06:40
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. But when it comes to actually understanding what the phenomenon represents, you know, one thing that I'm glad to see is the experiences are getting a lot more attention, you know, like as they should, I believe.
00:06:56
Speaker
But when you actually delve into the many, many cases, whether it be abductions, sightings or other kinds of experience, there seems to be such a vast array of what's been seen and experienced. So does that in a way point to the possibility of multiple phenomena in being here?
00:07:14
Speaker
What do you think about that? That's why I think that the research that people are doing, not just me now, into historical records, the people who have the training basically to go to the archives of Japan, that's happening big now in Japan.
00:07:33
Speaker
and China and you know the historical records of these traditions and which you know have been religious traditions right so you see a lot of this stuff in the scriptures and sutras of these various worlds and religions okay so
00:07:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think personally that it looks like a variety of phenomena, but I also think that you can see a historical trajectory of certain types of narratives like the abduction narrative, especially this is what basically changed the way I viewed
00:08:06
Speaker
this phenomena in 2012 and 2013 when I had just finished a book on the doctrine of purgatory and I'd literally just been immersed in archival research for many many years another you know what eight years it took to do that research and you know I was a non-believer in UFOs hadn't even thought about them
00:08:27
Speaker
But I kept coming across records of people who had these experiences that literally looked like they could have been taken out of John Mack's
Historical Narratives and UFOs
00:08:34
Speaker
book. But I had never read his book. I had never read abduction, human encounters with aliens, had never even thought to read it. And so I had already been immersed in these kinds of
00:08:44
Speaker
what you would call, what we would call today, experience or narratives. But I'm looking at them from the standpoint of Catholic history. Well, I had a huge log of these things. And so when a colleague suggested that this looked like Steven Spielberg's alien phenomena, I thought he was crazy. But I went back and I did the primary source research again. And then with this knowledge, went to the Vatican. And I saw a lot of information
00:09:13
Speaker
at the Vatican archive. It's called the secret archive, but it's actually not necessarily secret. It's just really hard to get into. And it's the Pope's personal archive of a thousand years or more of information. And it's a treasure trove. And I also went to the Space Observatory with this framework in mind. And then I was
00:09:38
Speaker
I could see that there was a historical narrative that we still see. Now, let me say a few things. A lot of people who are like pilots or who are your average person who happens to be up in the sky doing what they do, doing pilot work or being on radar or something like that, these are people who would never say that the UFO phenomena has anything to do with spirituality or religion. However,
00:10:07
Speaker
When you look at the people who've had some of these experiences, and I take Kenneth Arnold because he is a pilot. He's one of the people that made the term flying saucer known throughout the world. In 1947, here he's going, you know, he's a pilot. He's flying over Mount Rainier and he sees a bunch of these things flying in formation. And, you know, a lot of people think, OK, that's your nuts and bolts.
00:10:33
Speaker
type of ET, right? That's your nuts and bolts spacecraft. But if you actually go and do the research where you look into his, what he does, and what he did, and what he experienced, he actually brings it back to a religious standpoint. He thinks of these things as kind of like Ezekiel's wheel, and he believed that they were maybe alive, and that there's a lot of paranormal supernatural
00:11:00
Speaker
aspects to his sighting. So I always bring it back to, you know, when I get when a lot of people say, well, no, it really has nothing to do with that. I say, look again, you know, look again at the, you know, what people are saying about these. Some people just have random experiences of aerofanomena. You know, absolutely, that's the case. Some people don't. Some people have experiences that change them, change their worldview, and also include supernatural or paranormal aspects.
00:11:27
Speaker
Interesting and you mentioned their Ezekiel's wheel and now isn't am I writing saying that it's actually some connection with angels When it comes to oh, yeah, so when you yeah, so this is what I found When I looked back before I even thought about UFOs a lot of the aerial phenomena that was recorded in Catholic history Was either seen they were either seen as angels. Sometimes they were even called flying houses often they were
00:11:56
Speaker
identified as souls from purgatory. And a lot of the pictures and paintings and artistic representations of them are very strange looking. So when you look at them, you're like, that doesn't necessarily look like an angel, right? Or what we perceive to be an angel. I mean, again, my research had to ask, I had to ask, well, what is an angel anyway? When you go back and you look through the Bible, you start to see different ways that angels are represented.
00:12:26
Speaker
And then you realize that even that's not a uniform phenomenon, right? Agels don't look like, you know, tall blonde people with wings, you know? And as much as we want them to, they are weird looking and some of them do look human, right? Some of them are represented as human and many of them aren't.
00:12:44
Speaker
So I think that we have to do this by case by case, really, we have to just be better researchers of this and not use a wide lens to say this is what all UFOs are like, or this is what all, you know, but I can honestly say that that abduction narrative goes back goes back.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, indeed. One case that I heard you speaking about recently historically is the St Francis of Assisi case. And I just wondered if you could kind of talk us through that and give us the kind of comparisons to sort of more modern UFO sightings.
00:13:16
Speaker
Yeah, so I don't know if any of your listeners had seen the Rice University conference, Jacques Vélais gave the address, and he used the research. I had actually given him that research and said, Jacques, you got to look at this again, because Jacques comes from a Catholic background, and he knows this, but he didn't have any of the primary source material. And so
00:13:41
Speaker
So St. Francis of Assisi is a saint, I mean, probably the most well-known saint in Catholic history, represented often as a person who is in a garden and attracts animals. One of the most beloved saints of all of Catholic saints. Almost everyone, even atheists know who St. Francis of Assisi is, our current pope,
00:14:08
Speaker
has named himself Francis after Francis of Assisi. Okay, so that's kind of setting the stage for him.
00:14:17
Speaker
He had a life where he lived to, you know, he had a calling. He lived with, in a community of brothers, okay? He had not founded the Franciscan order. It was named after him. That's an order of monks. So he already lived in a life of prayer and, you know, trying to evangelize and do what he thought was right within his, you know, his milieu.
00:14:44
Speaker
He's Italian and he's living, so this happens to him, so this is in 1200s and he's going to go to pray and he and his friend, Brother Leo, are going to the mountain and they're going to pray for the Feast of the Archangels, which is kind of ironic actually. So he's going to do this and he's fasted and he's prepared himself and he goes to do this and what happens is that
00:15:13
Speaker
something kind of crashes in through the skies with a lot of sparks and light and it comes down and it basically zaps him with something that opens up
00:15:28
Speaker
wounds in his body and he later dies okay and like within two years he's he passes away in agony if I might add okay so and brother Leo tends to him now I looked at that and I looked at the various representations of this event
00:15:50
Speaker
And this was after I had gone through this experience of recognizing that a lot of the aerial phenomena within Catholic history, you know, if you go to the original sources that describe it, it never really looks like the artistic representations of them. The same thing with Teresa of Avila.
00:16:10
Speaker
She had an experience with what she didn't think was an angel, but then came to, she said, okay, I think this is an angel, but it was a small being that was about three feet tall. So again, so you have to actually then go back, try to find the written document of the earliest representation of this and read it. So that's what I did. I did some research and I found some of the earliest material that talked about St. Francis of Assisi's
00:16:38
Speaker
angel experience right because it was portrayed as an angel experience and in fact this experience is considered to be the first occasion of what's called the stigmata which is called the wounds of christ within catholic tradition people you've you've probably seen it because it's represented in a lot of movies where saints will have you know um wounds you know
00:17:02
Speaker
of Christ, you know, Jesus was crucified, so he has these wounds and they will appear on people. Literally, it's actually here and here that it was done. So Francis, his wounds get interpreted as the wounds of Jesus. If you read the actual primary source material, your listeners will no doubt be familiar with Dr. Gary Nolan's research, okay?
00:17:29
Speaker
And Dr. Nolan is actually James in my book, I can say that now, because he came out and said that he was, in my book, American Cosmic, he is the scientist that I bring with me to New Mexico. And so I was very familiar, in fact, terrified by the research that he was doing because he was doing research in a lot of these abduction narratives and also abduction events.
00:17:54
Speaker
And a lot of the research he did, especially with Dr. Christopher Green, was in this type of zapping that goes on, this type of
00:18:09
Speaker
almost like a radiation burn that people get when they are exposed to this phenomena. So I looked back and I wondered if perhaps this had happened to Francis of Assisi. So what I did was I sent the original primary sources to, well, it looked really weird, let's put it that way. When you look at what happened and as Brother Leo describes it to somebody who writes it down in Latin,
00:18:36
Speaker
What you see is that whatever comes through the atmosphere comes through with a lot of sound and fury, so that it seems to have produced a lot of different colored sparks and atmospheric phenomena.
00:18:58
Speaker
that was observed by Brother Leo and the being that was within this spinning disc that they see that he doesn't necessarily call Jesus but then gets interpreted as Jesus. He says he sees a big eye come out and take a look at him right and that it appears that Francis is having some type of
00:19:20
Speaker
telepathic communication with it and then these beams of light go boom and Francis is then wounded. Okay so that's what it says. What gets done later then is it's taken up as you know Francis is a holy person and it's you know interpreted in a very Catholic way. I am Catholic so just to be fully transparent here. So I send this to Jacques
00:19:50
Speaker
And I tell him not to make he's a very funny guy, by the way, and I always say, don't make a joke about the title because the title is pretty funny. But he says, OK, I won't make a joke. I just want to read it. And I said, OK, so I gave it to him. And we both agreed that it was definitely different than how it gets represented in Catholic popular culture.
00:20:09
Speaker
And I was surprised actually that he used it at Rice, but happy that he did. And so there you go. That's the type of stuff that we do in religious studies. When we look at these kinds of things, we actually try to get as close to the original document as possible, not to say that that's free from interpretation. It's not. But what you do get is you get data that you don't get from just looking at the pictures when you go to
00:20:38
Speaker
the Sorbonne or the Vatican, right? And you look at these pictures, you actually get data like the sparkly stuff that comes in through the atmosphere, the telepathic communication. They don't call it telepathy, but it said that there's nonverbal communication that's happening between this being and Francis.
00:20:56
Speaker
Interesting. I just found that really resonated that it just had so many connections, you know, to be interpreted to similar incidents. I mean, to tell you the truth, it somewhat terrified me because when I was with Gary in New Mexico and Tyler, Gary showed us a lot of the research and pictures and things like that. And that was probably one of the most disturbing things that has happened to me in my lifetime, because I saw evidence of this type of
00:21:26
Speaker
injury basically because you know Francis was injured let's have no you know let's be clear he was injured by this and these people were also injured but they were in real time now do I say that whatever injured Francis injured these people I'm not making that connection and saying that what I am saying is that the circumstances appear to be quite similar
00:21:50
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. There are cases where things have been more instant effects and then others that, like you said, that have been a year, two years. So that makes sense.
00:21:59
Speaker
I just wanted to move to a kind of a more recent-ish case, and this was something that happened in 1933 in Italy. It was reported that there was a crash of a UFO in 1933 Italy, and that Mussolini actually confided in Pope Pius XII about the craft, which found its way to the US after World War II. Is that something you've come across, that case, in your research?
00:22:22
Speaker
I have heard about that case, but I don't have any. So what I try to do as best I possibly can, and I think I do it, is I can only comment on those cases where I've actually seen the primary source material.
00:22:38
Speaker
So even though I've heard people that I believe have been credible talk about this I can't talk about it myself in with any kind of Legitimacy because I need to actually either read it myself see it Translate it, you know that I need to do my research and I haven't been able to with that But believe me if I do I'll let you know No, I appreciate that. I'm on the lookout for that. Yeah
00:23:01
Speaker
Yeah, but the people you did speak to about it, did they seem like there was legitimacy behind that case when they mentioned it to you? Yeah, I do. I do know a lot of people who definitely believe that and they're not, they're credible in my book, absolutely. But I can't, I don't know. So I can't personally say yes or no to that.
00:23:25
Speaker
No understandable. Now you mentioned there about your trip to New Mexico with Tyler and James or Gary, should I say.
New Mexico Trip and Views on Legitimacy
00:23:31
Speaker
So when it comes to materials and crash retrievals, it's talked about a lot at the moment with these legacy programs. Have you done much research into that or had many conversations? Do you think that there have been legacy programs looking at crash retrievals and materials?
00:23:49
Speaker
Sure, so this is one of the questions that folks at my university were interested in, you know, they were like, what's, you know, so and I will be very clear, when I started to this research, you have to understand, I was not a believer, I did not believe in this. So I use the tools that I've learned from my field, and that's religious studies, which means that when we talk to people who've saved had
00:24:15
Speaker
Marian apparitions, apparitions of the Virgin Mary or they've seen angels or things like that. We don't actually say that they're true or not. We don't know whether these things are objectively true. What we do is we study the effects and we study how do these people believe this and what are the effects of this belief. That's how we study this. We don't
00:24:38
Speaker
You know, so it was very easy for me to actually say, OK, I'm now going to study UFOs because I actually don't believe in them. But I want to know why these two incredibly professional, successful scientists do. Right. I want to know that. And that's why I went to New Mexico.
00:24:56
Speaker
So I went to New Mexico and I was asked to go by Tyler. Tyler said, I get the feeling that you actually don't believe in this phenomena. And I want a chance to show you that it's true. And I said, OK, sure. You know, that sounds pretty interesting, but I want somebody to go with me. And so I knew, you know, Gary would be perfect to go. And Gary wanted to go. And he's a believer. And so we went and.
00:25:22
Speaker
what I came upon, you know, like, I think, you know, I mean, people were like, if you knew that this was happening, why didn't you say something? Well, to tell you the truth, I didn't believe it. I didn't believe it at all. Even at the end of chapter one, if you go back and you look to American cosmic, you'll see that I outright say, these guys believed in this and they had these, you know, this material and this debris. And it actually stopped Gary from getting through the airport.
00:25:52
Speaker
And they searched everything, just exactly how Tyler said it was going to happen. It happened. And we were sweating. Tyler didn't sweat at all. But we were sweating. We were like, oh my gosh, is he going to be OK? And I still didn't believe it.
00:26:08
Speaker
Okay so but now with hindsight and with the what the United States government has come to say in June 2021 and all the people that I've met since then um absolutely there were these programs that were studying this and I just happened upon one um
00:26:26
Speaker
you know, for whatever strange reason. And, you know, I at the time I didn't believe it. I believe it now. What do I think they're doing there? Do I think that there's kind of like this cover up for weapons or do I think that, you know, they're actually retrieving things? I mean, I have to say that I've met now a lot of people that are part of these programs and
00:26:52
Speaker
To me, this is what they've been doing their whole lives. Some of them have been in these programs since they were 18 years old and now in their 60s. So why would they be doing this their whole lives if something wasn't happening? That's what I think. That's interesting, definitely. Before my next question, I just want to say to everyone in the chat, I am noting down some of your questions. Mr. Calhoun, thank you for your kind donation. I will get to your questions towards the end of the interview.
00:27:19
Speaker
You mentioned now the apparitions. Now earlier this year I actually traveled to rural Columbia to investigate a light phenomena out there and the one thing that struck me in the local villages and towns was the overwhelming amount of people that talked about the Marian apparitions locally.
Government Interest in Marian Apparitions
00:27:34
Speaker
It was absolutely mind-blowing. So
00:27:37
Speaker
you know it seems like to me before that I would have said yeah there was you know the Fatima cases and really old historic but then I started looking at it a little bit more and obviously came across the case of Christopher Bledsoe and the lady and what really struck me was the the interest by the government and the CIA etc and I know you're familiar with the case and I just wondered why you think it was such a that case in particular was so interesting to these agencies. Okay so
00:28:07
Speaker
Yeah, so that case has a lot of interesting aspects to it, not the least of which is that whatever
00:28:18
Speaker
whatever Chris did see in the beginning was something that had been registered before. And I actually witnessed this. This was when I was a disbeliever. And it was very early on. In fact, I think it was in 2012. There was a MUFON, a mutual UFO network meeting in Asheville that I went to.
00:28:40
Speaker
And I went there with my husband, and I hadn't yet met Chris. Are you talking about Chris Bledsoe and the lady? Is that OK? Yeah, that's what I thought. OK. So I hadn't actually met Chris, but I'd heard a lot about him. So I wanted to go and be incognito right in the back of the room. And what I witnessed was this, was that Chris, this was one of the first times that Chris finally decided he was going to talk.
00:29:07
Speaker
And he was there with his son, Ryan. And he was really reticent to talk. And he seemed clearly sincere to me. And I was struck by that about him. And I was also struck by the fact that this made a huge impact on his life and the life of his family. And that it wasn't an easy impact at all. And that was obvious.
00:29:36
Speaker
And then during his talk, something very strange happened. One of the first investigators that had been on the case stood up and basically said, he said, look, I'm so and so. He gave his name. And he said, I was the first investigator to be on the case. And I took it in and put it into the database. And immediately, I was kicked off the case. And the data was taken.
00:30:04
Speaker
I'm not kidding you. And Chris didn't know that this guy would be there. I thought it was really weird. So I wrote it down, you know, I'm a professor, so I'm going to write down all the data. I took down his name and everything. And he said, I don't have to be here. I no longer work for move on, but I just wanted that to be known.
00:30:21
Speaker
And I thought that was so weird that, of course, you know, I thought, OK, so then Chris had told me once I introduced myself to Chris, this was actually later during I didn't introduce myself to him at that conference, but I did later. And we talked, we met here in where I work, actually at a meeting here on Rightful Beach in Wilmington and
00:30:49
Speaker
Again, what struck me about him was that in a lot of these cases, people get information, and this happens by the way with Marian apparitions as well, is that the people that have these experiences feel that the end of the world is happening and that they have to prepare right now. And Chris was really concerned, so he had mowed his whole yard into a giant garden.
00:31:15
Speaker
And his wife was really upset about it, but he was getting these giant vegetables and he said, I'm going to feed my whole neighborhood when this happens. So he was literally doing what he felt he needed to do. He even gave me things like he gave me eggs from his chickens and, you know, all kinds of vegetables. And, you know, and I had told him, I said, Chris, people have had these experiences for at least two thousand years that I know of.
00:31:38
Speaker
and more. And they've always felt that the end of the world was going to happen. They got these like, you know, end of the world kind of scenarios and that they had to do these things and they had to be super holy and good and pray and they have to make gardens and things. And so he listened to me and he said, and finally came around, he said, I don't know when it's going to happen. He said, it will happen, but it'll happen in God's time. So he kind of laid off of the
00:32:05
Speaker
gardening for the whole world type of thing, you know. But the ladies, so that was something that, you know, the reason I went into graduate school is because I was interested in apparitions of the Virgin Mary and why people believed in those. And actually, I couldn't believe the connection that I found between the phenomena, basically the UFO phenomena,
00:32:27
Speaker
And then these apparitions that people see, a lot of times they see lights in the sky, discs in the sky, flying and things like that. And if you do start to look at some of the major apparitions, even the ones that are approved by the Catholic Church, you scratch the surface of those and you see that a lot of the primary sources also show what
00:32:49
Speaker
People so a lot of times the people say well, she's a lady that comes down on a flying disc, you know And this happens and you know, there's lights all around her and she always has the same message It seems that you know, just pray do good by people fast once a week and things like that and I so why is the government interested in this? Um, so I have different um
00:33:16
Speaker
I've different, what would you call it? I've heard different things from people who are in the government. I think that, well one of the questions that Chris was asked early on by somebody who was basically Tyler, he wanted to know
00:33:33
Speaker
if the lady was responsible for deactivating nuclear weapons at the weapons site, and he wanted to know what the deal was with that. So that's his question for Chris. And I kept notes. I was like, OK, that's a pretty weird question, because that assumes that he believes in the lady. There's also other people who have said that this feminine presence is
00:34:02
Speaker
reported a lot with respect to you know these kinds of sightings. A lot of these sightings as well seem to come up with you mentioned it kind of predictions or you know the things that are going to happen in the future and I mean I struggle with that and how do we skeptically look at those without just completely brushing them aside?
00:34:29
Speaker
I don't, for one thing, I don't think we should brush data aside. So this is one thing that Gary Nolan and I feel pretty, well, actually the same about because I've had conversation with him, is that in our field, in fact, I'm writing an article right now that's overdue, but it's basically about how to do this kind of work academically. And in his field and in my field, what happens is that if you have data
00:34:56
Speaker
And it it looks like you're and literally I want to just point out that you know the stigma the stigmata it comes from the word stigma and Stigmatize knowledge is something that's very important as an issue here because within my field people won't you know didn't study this at all I wasn't I was I didn't study this until I became a full professor
00:35:20
Speaker
Which is the you can't get any higher than a full professor because you know I thought if I did it before that it just wouldn't be a good idea and I don't recommend it still to people in early in their career but but Gary said this too he said you know a lot of my graduate students will come to me and they'll say okay here's my you know here's what I'm doing
00:35:41
Speaker
And I'll say, what about this data over here? And they'll say, yeah, I don't know what to do with that. And he goes, well, you have to actually include it because it'll probably help you understand what the problem is. So a lot of the data, let's take the relationship between the government and UFO disclosure or UFO, you know, what people believe about UFOs. There's a distinct, it just so happens that people who are ufologists and people who look into UFO
00:36:09
Speaker
research and things like that. They've always known that there's been Project Blue Book and there's been debunking of UFO reports and things like that. They've always known that. That's like common knowledge. But if you talk to academics, it's like that doesn't even exist to them. So they're completely ignoring data. I mean, completely. And that's not academic.
00:36:29
Speaker
that's completely against what we've been trained to do. So why is that? And I'm asking that question in this article. I'm saying, you know, why is it that researchers who are civilian researchers and not affiliated with universities know this, but we ignore it? That's because we lose our jobs. I think a lot of us would lose our jobs and to get attacked for like, so no, I think that we can't brush aside this type of data. We have to actually
00:36:58
Speaker
it has to inform how we move forward. Excellent, I really appreciate that answer because there are times where I'm looking at something and I find a data point that doesn't fit or it sounds too outrageous and I admit I brush it aside sometimes and it's kind of I feel bad for ignoring them but
The Catholic Church and UFOs
00:37:16
Speaker
If I can't make them fit, I'm just becoming a tangle for so long. So yeah, that makes sense. And so thank you. Let's get to a few questions that we've received here in the chat. Jonathan asks, is it true that you've briefed intelligence people and technologists together with Jeff Kripal? OK, so I do know.
00:37:37
Speaker
No, but let me do a qualification on that. I do know that intelligence people were reading Jeff Kripal's work because they told me and they said and they would say this is good reading for you know, basically just to to catch young intelligence people up on paranormal and and
00:37:58
Speaker
Remote viewing and things like that, you know, which jeff cripal actually does talk about in his research. So I know that's true When my book came out it was read by a lot of people even before it was published because those people actually reached out to me and wanted to have conversations and
00:38:15
Speaker
So, but have we had briefings where no, no, we don't have briefings. Although I would say that probably in every, like I've been, I've taught a few classes on UFOs and I've had intelligence people in those classes and come out and say, we work for, you know, this intelligence organization and so forth. They don't say why they're there, but they are there.
00:38:39
Speaker
That's strange, just announcing their presence, but for no particular reason, it seems to be ominous. You know, they're pretty nice, though. They're not, you know, they don't look like the men in black with their shades or anything like that. They're like usually some of them, you know, they're super affable, I guess you could say. Yeah.
00:39:01
Speaker
Still strange. It is pretty weird. Mr. Khaled, again, thank you for the donation. He asks, why does the Catholic Church have such a pronounced interest in potential ET life? Does it just come from its theological traditions, or has it compiled over the last 2,000 years its own X-Files? That's great. I like that question. The X-Files, the Catholic X-Files. All right, so this is a really good question.
00:39:30
Speaker
I think that the Catholic Church doesn't necessarily have, well, okay, yes, they're very, you have to understand that they have an observatory. They have an observatory that's as old as the United States, okay, with its own telescope, you know, and it's in Castle Gandalfo. So they've been looking out
00:39:49
Speaker
into space longer than we've been around in the United States at least. So they have an idea that there might be things out there in Catholic tradition. People have talked about planetary intelligences and perhaps worlds on other people on other planets or life on other planets. So the whole idea of extraterrestrial life is something that Catholics have always talked about for at least 1000 years. I also like to bring up
00:40:19
Speaker
non-Catholic but Christian, Immanuel Swedenborg, who in 1750 wrote a book called Life on Other Planets. This was a bestseller in Europe at the time. You could still get this book, it's on Amazon. People have been talking about extraterrestrial life. When I went to the Vatican Observatory, there was a whole stack of, it looks like probably 2,000 books about extraterrestrial life.
00:40:47
Speaker
So, you know, from, I don't know, 800 years ago to the present. And I started there, by the way, in my research, I was like, I think I'm going to start here in terms of looking at, you know, just how things were categorized even. So I know various different Catholics who are in positions of hierarchy within the church. There's no position at this moment about
00:41:14
Speaker
you know, official Catholic position on extraterrestrial life. Other than that, there are invisible things that God has created. God has created things visible and invisible. You can go to, by the way, for Mr. Calhoun and people who are interested, they may have already seen this, I don't know, but John Paul II talked about this in his catechesis, which is a teaching, it's called the teaching on angels.
00:41:42
Speaker
And this was in the 1980s and he released it to his bishops. So he wasn't talking to the general populace, he was actually talking to his bishops and he said, you might not believe that there are these things that we call angels, but you know, because it's the
00:42:00
Speaker
We just don't believe in that anymore, but they still exist. Whether or not you believe in them, they're real. And then he goes back to kind of prove how they're real. And then he also says this, which I found fascinating, is that they intervene in human history. So human history would not be what it is today without the intervention of these beings.
00:42:23
Speaker
If you go to Brother Guy Consolmagno's work, he actually wrote a book called, Would the Pope Baptize an ET, an extraterrestrial? And he talks about this in the introduction, about what the Catholic Church thinks about extraterrestrials. Now, that's one thing, the different opinions that various people in the Catholic Church have. Some believe, some don't believe, in these positions of hierarchy.
00:42:52
Speaker
They also have conferences every year about what would happen, about the status of extraterrestrial life. What's interesting is that I find that there's UFO Twitter and there's all these social media platforms about UFOs. None of them actually talk about that when they come around.
00:43:12
Speaker
But I think those are probably the best places to go because you have people who are astrophysicists who are at MIT and Harvard, and they're talking to astrophysicists in Castle Gandalfo, who happen to be Jesuit monks or something like that. And they're all talking about these exoplanets and life on these exoplanets and what would be the repercussions for telling the world if ET exists and that kind of thing. So that's been going on for at least 10 years.
00:43:42
Speaker
or more. It's been going on for a long time. So those happen. And besides that, there is an untold amount of archival research in these archives and libraries that the Vatican is just basically trying to digitize before it all gets disintegrated, because it's so old. Like I saw some of the manuscripts
00:44:10
Speaker
and was able to go through them, but I had to wear special gloves, and those manuscripts still disintegrated. So the Vatican is trying really hard right now to digitize all these documents so they won't be lost, because there is so much information in these documents about this particular phenomena. So those are different aspects of what does the Vatican know kind of thing.
00:44:39
Speaker
So if we did start to see, I mean, we're already starting to see the government's talking more openly about the phenomenon. Do you think as that continues, we may see the Vatican openly talking more public about it as well in their own way? Yeah, I did talk about this too. I'm rehashing what I said earlier today to the people at my university. So absolutely, the Vatican is, first of all, you have to understand that it has its, you know, its documents are
00:45:08
Speaker
not just its history, but its sacred history, that this is a theocracy, this is not a democracy. So they don't view the contents of their library like we do, like the National Archives, the people should know. They don't have that idea. And we have to be culturally, we have to understand that difference, that cultural difference. The Vatican, I think, is basically
00:45:37
Speaker
It doesn't necessarily have the same constraints on it that the United States government would have. Because we have basically an empire and we also have a huge military. And a lot of this is caught up with national security.
00:45:59
Speaker
The Vatican doesn't really have weapons of mass destruction, right? And stuff like that. So you have to understand that their position is going to be completely different when they talk about it. They do talk about it. Like you said, just go to these conferences. They'll talk all about it. They're not going to talk about it in the same way that, say, the conversation has happened here.
00:46:19
Speaker
that the United States government has been hiding information from the American people and finally is coming out and this kind of thing. Kids, they're not going to talk about it. They're going to talk about it with respect of, you know, God has created all beings. And if extraterrestrials exist, God has created them. And angels exist, we believe that. Demons exist, we believe that. Are these beings different from those? These are the kinds of questions that they'll be asking.
00:46:47
Speaker
as well as some of the scientific questions about, you know, is it moral for some people, if we do find life on other planets and we decide to go there, is it moral and ethical for some of us to go and leave others here? So these are the questions that the Vatican would be asking.
00:47:05
Speaker
Interesting. Thank you. I'm going to move on to some questions that I've been sent, like I said earlier, through email
Catholicism's Influence on UFO Research
00:47:11
Speaker
and stuff. So the first one is from Kelly from the UFO Rabbit Hole podcast. And she says, Hi, Kelly. You've mentioned before that a surprising percentage of the invisible college are Catholic. So as a practicing Catholic yourself, what do you think the connection might be between Catholicism and ufology? Is it a mere coincidence or is there something about Catholicism that appeals to people who deeply study phenomena?
00:47:34
Speaker
Or maybe there is something about Catholic doctrine that makes people more likely to consider it as real. Yes. So I was personally surprised at how many people in the invisible college were practicing Catholics and also some of which are cultural Catholics, which mean that they were brought up Catholic but don't practice and say they're not Catholic now, but just culturally Catholic. The people that I met who
00:48:02
Speaker
identify as being devotionally Catholic. And when I say devotionally, like they actually do the devotions, like, you know, there are Catholics who just go to church and just say, hey, I'm Catholic. But then there are people who actually do no Venus, which are nine day prayers and, you know, engage in maybe going to daily mass and things like that. And I found that some of the invisible college were these kinds of Catholics. I mean, very, very intensely Catholic. Now, why?
00:48:30
Speaker
That's a good question. I've thought about this a lot and I actually don't know okay. I have my theories One of my theories is that they found out that these beams were not necessarily extraterrestrial But maybe interdimensional and they felt like they needed protection That could be one. I mean when you're getting this is me speaking as a non-professor Okay, and you're just asking me
00:48:52
Speaker
You know, why does this person maintain their devotional life when, you know, there are scientists in that? And I'm thinking, well, speaking from a religion standpoint, they've seen something that may have scared them. I mean, I do even I did put in my book in American Cosmic after I saw Gary's research.
00:49:09
Speaker
we were just going to the quote-unquote donation site afterwards, right, the site. I prayed that night because I didn't even know what I was praying about, but I knew that what I saw was profoundly disturbing and I felt like I needed to protect myself in some way. So I guess that's kind of like a more human answer to that question. I mean, it could also just be that
00:49:37
Speaker
they have kind of a similar background in the sense that Catholics, especially Catholics over 50, you could say, right? Catholics over 50 tend to have an education that includes Vatican II, pre-Vatican II, knowledge of Latin, and those kinds of things. And these Catholics have more access to the historical record. So the historical record, like I know my father, for instance,
00:50:03
Speaker
had Greek Latin like you knew a lot of this stuff so if you told him about Francis of Assisi and kind of gave him the documents he would look at that and that you know it might occur to him that UFO you know events look similar so it could also be that they have that background. Interesting.
00:50:20
Speaker
And it's good, I appreciate you answering that as yourself and not as the professor, and that's, I really do. I'm gonna switch it up a little bit here, and this is something that I, again, heard you say recently, or bring up, and I found it fascinating, was retracted recollection.
Understanding Historical Narratives
00:50:37
Speaker
If you could explain that for people, because I think I really found that really interesting point.
00:50:43
Speaker
You mean retracted in terms of self-retraction or retraction in terms of what editors do and like Project Blue Book did to us as American citizens, you know? I was thinking more as what experience when they recall their experiences and things like that. But if there are different angles to it, then please, by all means, whichever one you think is the most relevant. But it was a term, I think I heard you speaking about it with regards to
00:51:11
Speaker
selective recollection or only remembering certain things and retracting parts of a story, whether on purpose or over time, forgetting things. Maybe I misheard it, but no, no, it's sure. So there's a different. So there's there are different levels of this called redaction.
00:51:30
Speaker
Okay, and so redaction is actually strangely in the United States right now is in the news because of this FBI going into Donald Trump's house, right? And so there was an affidavit and you know this this and so you see it and it's all completely blotted out.
00:51:48
Speaker
And so the term redaction is in the news recently. And I had just talked about this in a class that I had given about UFOs. And I talked about what we learned to do in my field is called redaction studies. So what we're trained to do is to undo the redaction. Like if you're given something like St. Francis of Assisi's picture, a painting of St. Francis of Assisi,
00:52:13
Speaker
How do we go back to the original, like how do we get back to what happened to him? Well, we can't actually, but we can do a good job of figuring it out. And so we're taught that process. And I was trying to teach people this in my class, how this process of redaction works and it's self-redaction too. And I'll give you an example of this. Okay. So we, based on what we're taught to know in our culture, we self-redact.
00:52:39
Speaker
Okay. So a lot of people will see something that doesn't fit. It's kind of like the data. We see something that doesn't fit and then we forget about it. We go, ah, you know, we see something that looks clearly like a UFO and doesn't look like a plane and just flying around and it's freaking you out. And you're like,
00:52:56
Speaker
You know, you forget about it. And then like years later, you're like, whoa, I remember that situation. You know, that happens a lot. And so and especially to people who've had these experiences. Here's a case just straight up from religious studies, Catholic history. It has to do with this woman named Junia, who was a Greek woman who was in the second century and
00:53:20
Speaker
I'm sorry, she was said to have worked, yeah, no, she was in the first century, but a lot was written about her in the second century. This is before Rome took over Christianity, okay? And so you've got these documents that talk about this woman who travels around and does a lot of work with the Apostle Paul, and she is also called an apostle, and she's also called a deacon,
00:53:45
Speaker
And she's called all these kiddings. She's obviously a leader in the early Christian church. And it's all there in the Bible. But what happens is that when the Bible gets translated from Greek to Latin, the people, this is hundreds of years later, the people who are doing that translation
00:54:04
Speaker
look back and see this person named, you know, Junia, and they say, okay, so she's an apostle, she works as an apostle, and, you know, she's a deacon, and she did all these things, has to be a man. So they renamed her.
00:54:18
Speaker
And she became a man for all intents and purposes. Then the Latin Bible was translated into vernacular languages, into German, English. And so she got translated as a man into all those other languages. And it wasn't until this century that we, or actually last century that we found out, wait a minute, this is actually a woman. Now, did those people do that on purpose?
00:54:41
Speaker
I don't think so. I think that they were Roman. And they were like, you know, women just don't have that status in our culture, therefore that can't be a woman. And so they just changed her name. That's called redaction. And so what our job is, is to go, especially in religion, because religion is so important, right? Because it determines policy, it determines how people act toward one another.
00:55:04
Speaker
We have to go back. So for UFO scholarship, this is one of the most important things that we have to learn how to do. We cannot just accept, especially in this age of digital media, what somebody says is a video of a UFO. We cannot accept that. We have to do our due diligence.
00:55:25
Speaker
And if we don't, we're going to be like the people who believe Junia was, you know, we're going to have wrong information, basically, we're going to be duped. And so that's why we, we also have to do that for ourselves. We have to like, when the date, like Gary and I, you know, we say when the data doesn't look right, maybe there's something about that data that will actually solve our problem.
00:55:49
Speaker
Interesting. Thank you for that. And yeah, it was redaction. That's not retract. I wrote it down wrong. No, that's OK. Redaction is very important.
00:55:59
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I'm just going to take a second to just say a couple of thank yous. Lisa Bowden, thank you for your generosity. Jimmy the Earthling, thanks Vinnie. Diana is fascinating. I agree. And Science Bob, thank you so much. She says my one regret since meeting Chris Bledsoe, not meeting Diana and having an hour-long interesting conversation. Thank you guys so much. I really appreciate the support. Moving on to some more questions.
00:56:27
Speaker
Ambion asks, what's the significance of the two creations in Genesis? Separate creating gods, global reset, different human species with us. And what's the importance of the order of Melchizedek? Melchizedek, yeah. Melchizedek.
00:56:45
Speaker
Okay, so those are great questions and beyond. So the two creation stories, so a lot of people actually don't know that there are two creation stories in Genesis. Okay, so Genesis is the first book of the Bible. It's a Hebrew Bible and Christian New Testament, same book, sacred tradition for three major religions. Christianity, Islam, believe it or not, is also a sacred tradition for them. It's not their sacred book, but it is sacred history for them.
00:57:13
Speaker
and also Christianity, obviously. Okay, so when we think of creation of the human, you have human species, right? A lot of people who are religious will go back and talk about what Catholics call, the Catholics don't actually take this literally. They call it sacred history, which isn't a literal history. It's just that this was the language they had to describe. Some people,
00:57:40
Speaker
and not very many, take this literally and say that Adam and Eve were created, two human beings were created at this time. But if human beings were created at this time literally, then how would this account for them being created in chapter one and then also chapter two? Because there are these two narratives that are right next to each other in the Bible. One is with Adam and Eve and the other is with, if you take the Hebrew and kind of translate it, these human creatures.
00:58:10
Speaker
who are created together as companions. So what is the significance of that in terms of human history? Is that what the question was? Because I can tell you what the significance of it is for gender relationships.
00:58:30
Speaker
Just what's the importance? Yeah, so okay I think that it's really important that we go back and we look at I mean if this is your sacred tradition if you happen to be Jewish or Christian You better know these books. Okay, so I tell my students that they come to my class and they don't they've never read the Bible but then they call themselves Christians and I said Let's take your Bible and bring it and we're going to read it so that you can be familiar with the religion that you call your own so, you know, I think that
00:59:00
Speaker
that there are these two forms of creation. And I think we can also, when we do redaction studies on Genesis, we also need to understand that there was already creation stories within the culture at the time, like the Babylonian narratives of creation, which look so similar that they almost like, it almost looks like Genesis takes from that. And it possibly could from Babylonian Genesis stories as well, creation stories as well. I think that
00:59:31
Speaker
One thing that we do note in the Hebrew Bible, Old Testament for Christians, is that God refers to God's self in the plural, and there seems to be a council.
00:59:47
Speaker
So there are a lot of things that references to other types of holy beings that appear to be actors at the time of the creation of humans. And I think that all of that should be considered within a person's religion. Now Catholics will just say, it doesn't really matter because it's sacred history. So we don't have to actually literally believe in any of that. But I think that
01:00:16
Speaker
that even if you take it metaphorically, it's important because what is being shown here is that there's a multiplicity of beings, not just a god and a man and a woman. We're talking about a multiplicity of intelligent beings. And I think that that's pretty important to know. Yeah, absolutely.
01:00:43
Speaker
I've had multiple people both here in the live chat and also via other avenues. Ask me if you'd come across and what your thoughts are on the Annunaki.
Ancient Texts and Intelligent Entities
01:00:52
Speaker
Right.
01:00:53
Speaker
OK, yes, I have. And again, so this is going to be outside of my wheelhouse in terms of what I feel like I could credibly talk about. But again, what I want to get to is just this question that was just raised about the multiplicity of beings when you actually start to read the very old texts of the Bible that you do find. And it's not just the Bible, too. It's the old texts.
01:01:23
Speaker
of sacred literature of a lot of different traditions. In my class, I referred a lot to the Japanese tradition because there was a man who was actually, I believe he was an engineer or a mathematician, but a friend of mine, Marie Mockett, her mother's Japanese and Marie's right now in Japan, and she's doing research on this tradition of a lady, okay, who comes down and in various ways,
01:01:52
Speaker
and lots of records about her and also the multiplicity of beings within their culture as well. So all of the sacred literature for, you know, and even the oral traditions of indigenous cultures have references to a multiplicity of intelligent beings like star people and things like that.
01:02:12
Speaker
So I think that once a person starts to engage in this type of historical research, it's really hard to not see that people have always felt that there were a multiplicity of beings that, you know, that if there is a God who created all of this, you know, that, you know, or God is one of among these these others as well, which I know is heretical to a lot of people. But
01:02:39
Speaker
that's what the texts a lot of times that's what the texts say and you know you kind of have to lose a lot of dogmatism when you when you start to read this stuff yeah absolutely now have you had any conversations outside of the sort of catholic and christian sort of world into the more of the Sikh and Muslim and all the other kind of religions about
Diverse Perspectives on UFOs
01:03:00
Speaker
UFOs or disclosure and how have you come across much difference in their reactions, their willingness to talk to it and how they may react if something like this were to be announced globally.
01:03:14
Speaker
At this point, there's an international group of academics from various traditions, Islam, American religions, Catholicism, Protestantism, Hinduism, Buddhism,
01:03:34
Speaker
And of course, I know lots of professors within the study of these religions who are doing this research and who are kind of doing similar work that I'm doing in the sense that they're going back and they're using redaction scholarship to look at what's there and using that they're, you know, because you have to have a lot of the languages.
01:03:53
Speaker
you know who speaks poly or who reads poly right and so a lot of people are trained and so then they're they're refocusing right now. A lot of those people don't actually want to be known yet and they don't want to put their name on their scholarship and get their books out there because it's so new and they're afraid of the stigmatized nature of the knowledge and I don't blame them to tell you the truth so I think maybe we'll
01:04:19
Speaker
that's gonna happen as we continue on with what's happening right now. The more the United States kind of talks about it, I think the more people are gonna be okay with coming out about talking about it. But yeah, there are a lot of people, how would they react? I think that most of them, especially if they're academics, are looking at it as this is the way it is. So what kind of reaction can you have other than that?
01:04:44
Speaker
okay well this has been described in these books for centuries and now all of a sudden maybe our government is talking about it and it looks like a similar phenomena um maybe it's just okay you know maybe we shouldn't get so upset about it i mean we haven't you know yeah absolutely just wanted to bring that back up sorry jay thank you so much my friend i really appreciate that conversation
01:05:11
Speaker
Oh, you love Jay to bits. And for everyone, Jay is actually putting on a conference soon alongside James Ian Doley, which I recommend people go and check out some great speakers. One last question that I wanted to ask before we start to wrap up is I just wanted to know how you felt seeing Gary Nolan actually speak about his experience publicly, because I'm guessing you were aware of what he'd seen, and then now it's out there. And I think it
01:05:37
Speaker
It made a lot of people feel good. A lot of people feel good hearing it from someone like Gary. Yeah, Gary's like, I mean, I don't have heroes because I, I just think it's a bad idea because, you know, they can never, never live up to what you said. You shouldn't do that to people, but he actually is like a hero to me. And, um, he described his experiences to me early on when I first met him. And, um, you know, he's got a lot of.
01:06:07
Speaker
he's got a lot of friends and a lot of friends who have had these experiences and he knows a lot of people have had these experiences. We had a special conference of people who, Kerry Moles was there, he's a Nobel prize-winning chemist, where a lot of scientists had these experiences and related them to their science, you know, and it was a very intense conference, frankly.
01:06:34
Speaker
And I thought that I think Gary's brave. And I think that I, you know, I can't understand like he gets a lot of flack from people. And I don't understand that. I mean, he's brave. Like, you know, I'd like to see, first of all, I know him personally, and he's a friend. So I know how hard he works. And I promise you, I have five teenagers and my job, you know, I feel like my job is really hard. And he, he,
01:07:02
Speaker
works harder than me. He kicks butt. He works all the time and he has hundreds of people working for him in labs at Stanford University. This guy goes all over the world doing science and he's brilliant and people need to respect that, you know, and people need to respect what he's saying because he doesn't have to. He's already, you know, he's already at the top of his field. He doesn't have to do anything and he's doing this and I think that that's brave.
01:07:33
Speaker
Absolutely. I for one appreciate him so much. I've been lucky enough to have a conversation with him. And yeah, I could speak to him all day. I could say the same about yourself. I could speak to you all day. But let's finish this off with you and your new upcoming book. Now, is it about UFOs?
01:07:51
Speaker
Yes, okay, so it is about UFOs, yes. But it is what it so it's about people who've had experiences of UFOs. And, and it also what I do is I take this idea this kind of like ancient
01:08:08
Speaker
idea of what I call protocols, because what I noticed was that a lot of people who I was, you know, through the writing of American Cosmic, I was exposed to a lot of very highly creative and high functioning people like Tyler, not a normal person at all. Gary Nolan, not a normal person at all, like incredibly brilliant, incredibly high functioning. And they all had protocols, every one of them.
01:08:32
Speaker
And as a person who studies religion, I noted that protocols have been around for thousands of years. In fact, people like, you know, communities of monks, nuns have always practiced protocols. And in fact, if you look at the history of kind of innovation, a lot of people were protocol practicing people.
01:08:49
Speaker
And so I thought, you know, maybe I need to start practicing protocols myself, but I also have to do the science behind this to try to figure out what these are. And so what I did was, and this is how the research usually works. I know that a lot of people know this. Once you start to open up to something that is powerful,
01:09:08
Speaker
The research comes to you. You don't even have to go looking for it. So I started to meet people that practice these protocols, but also knew the science behind them. And so my next book is called, well, I'm calling it now The Resurrected, but the name is going to change. It always does. So it's already in contract, but I'm still writing it.
01:09:30
Speaker
And basically what it is going to be about is going to be about these people who went through these these experiences and were able to use them and utilize them to create just kind of like Tyler. So basically it's a whole it's a whole.
01:09:48
Speaker
bunch of, you know, like views of people like this that are actually creating a future for us, like a future that we want, that is livable, frankly. And these people are mission people that have missions. And so it's basically about them.
01:10:05
Speaker
And what I'm doing is I'm contextualizing it within the Socratic tradition, which is the tradition of Socrates, which you can see comes right through Christianity, Judaism, Christianity, on through to the Western tradition. And I'll also be talking about a little bit about Japanese, what is happening in Japan right now, which is really interesting with respect to UAP UFOs. And so that's what it's about. It's about basically, it's more of kind of like a manual for
01:10:33
Speaker
what I found out about the lives of these people and how the experiences changed them and how we can actually utilize this information just as normal people.
01:10:48
Speaker
Absolutely amazing, I cannot wait to read it.
Teaser: Diana's New Book on UFO Experiences
01:10:52
Speaker
Well Diana, thank you so much. Thank you Vinny, I really enjoyed it. Please stay in touch and for everyone in the live chat, thank you so much. It looked like a great chat, I would have been in it if it wasn't me up here and do the interview. To everyone that donated, thank you so much. All the great questions, I'm sorry I couldn't get to them all but
01:11:12
Speaker
Thank you guys and I'm going to be back I think next week with Matthew Roberts to discuss the gimbal event from 2015. But for now, everyone, please take care and I will see you soon. Goodbye.