Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
68 Jendella Benson | Contemporary Fiction Author
263 Plays3 years ago
Contemporary fiction author and head of editorial at Black Ballad, Jendella Benson is in this week's episode telling us all about her long journey with storytelling, social journalism and photography, and how it all led to the publication of her debut novel, 'Hope and Glory'. She shares the story of how she signed with her agent, Juliet Pickering, the push back she gave on the cover for the novel and the wonderful, if at times challenging, experience of publishing a novel.
Signing up to the Patreon will give you access to the Discord server, where you'll be able to interact directly with Jamie as well as many of the previous agents, authors and editors who have been on the show. You'll also be able to see who the upcoming guests are and put forward questions for Jamie to ask them.
Get a whole month with WriteMentor's Hub for free using the coupon code 'Write&Wrong'.
The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes
Jamie, Melissa and Noami talk about the best and the worst writing tropes!
Click here to find all of our guests' books as well as the desert island library over at bookshop.org.
Click on this referral link to get 30% off your first three months with Zencastr.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction & Sponsor
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi guys, quick one before we get into the episode.
00:00:02
Speaker
This episode is sponsored by Zencaster, which is the production suite that I've used from the very beginning of this podcast.
00:00:06
Speaker
And if you're interested in starting your own podcast, hang around at the end of the episode for our 30% discount referral code.
00:00:12
Speaker
Thanks.
00:00:13
Speaker
So our podcast is called Right and Wrong.
00:00:15
Speaker
Are these your notes?
00:00:16
Speaker
These are your notes about what we're going to say.
00:00:19
Speaker
Anything is a short answer.
00:00:21
Speaker
So how many novels did you not finish?
00:00:24
Speaker
Oh my God, so many.
00:00:26
Speaker
It was perfect.
00:00:27
Speaker
What are you talking about?
00:00:28
Speaker
This is nonsense.
00:00:30
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question.
00:00:32
Speaker
I love it.
00:00:33
Speaker
This is it, guys.
00:00:34
Speaker
The big secret to getting publishers and having to write a good book.
00:00:39
Speaker
You had it here first.
Introducing Jandella Benson & New Novel
00:00:43
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast.
00:00:45
Speaker
I'm Jamie and chatting with me today is the head of editorial at the award-winning digital platform Black Ballad.
00:00:53
Speaker
Joining us just after the launch of her new novel Hope and Glory, it's Jandella Benson.
00:00:59
Speaker
Hi.
00:01:00
Speaker
Hello.
00:01:01
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me.
00:01:03
Speaker
Oh, it's my pleasure.
00:01:04
Speaker
How's it going?
00:01:05
Speaker
You must be sort of busy with post-launch things to do with the book.
00:01:09
Speaker
How's it all been, the launch and everything?
00:01:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's been good.
00:01:14
Speaker
It's been interesting because it's like you're kind of ramping up to launch and then it kind of happens and you're like, okay, yeah, this actually keeps going.
00:01:24
Speaker
You have to keep promoting and keep.
00:01:26
Speaker
It's not just like, ooh, bam, there we are, we're all done.
00:01:30
Speaker
So I would say I'm learning that it's definitely a marathon, not a sprint.
00:01:35
Speaker
But I'm enjoying it.
00:01:36
Speaker
I'm just trying to enjoy it as much as possible, to be honest, and not like...
00:01:40
Speaker
Yeah, not get so caught up in it that it stops being fun.
00:01:44
Speaker
Oh, well, that's great.
00:01:45
Speaker
That's a great mentality to have taken on that.
00:01:48
Speaker
And first things first for everyone listening, let's talk about the book.
00:01:53
Speaker
What is it all about?
00:01:55
Speaker
Hope and Glory.
00:01:56
Speaker
Yeah, so at the beginning of Hope and Glory, we meet Glory, who's been living out in LA.
00:02:02
Speaker
She's been looking quite great on Instagram, you know, living a glamorous life.
00:02:08
Speaker
But when her dad suddenly dies, she has to come back to...
00:02:13
Speaker
England, specifically Peckham in South London.
00:02:16
Speaker
And she comes back to a family that is in complete disarray.
00:02:19
Speaker
So her sister is in this questionable marriage.
00:02:23
Speaker
Her brother has been imprisoned.
00:02:26
Speaker
He's been charged and convicted and he's now in prison.
00:02:29
Speaker
And her mum is on the verge of a mental breakdown.
00:02:32
Speaker
And she comes back to this mess, basically, and she decides that she's going to try and fix everything.
00:02:38
Speaker
But in the process, she discovers a family secret, which is potentially just going to blow everything up and make things worse as they do.
00:02:47
Speaker
As they always do.
00:02:48
Speaker
Well, it sounds, it's, it's great.
00:02:52
Speaker
And it is great.
00:02:52
Speaker
The, you know, so many aspects of like thriller and drama and all these kinds of things thrown in together as a reading experience.
00:03:05
Speaker
I use these sort of quite punchy, weighty sentences, and it feels very personal and intimate a lot of the time.
00:03:13
Speaker
How much of it draws from your own experiences?
00:03:18
Speaker
I think there's definitely elements of myself in Glory and in various other characters like Faith, her older sister.
00:03:27
Speaker
Nothing about the plot kind of tracks directly with my life, but it addresses certain things that I think are reality for a lot of people.
00:03:36
Speaker
second generation kind of like immigrant children in the UK so there's a lot about family dynamics and about how like our relationships with our siblings and our parents so there's a lot of truth in there but it's not something that I think tracks directly with any kind of
00:03:56
Speaker
um events of my own life but um yeah it's just kind of observing those around me my friends my family and kind of just trying to crystallize the truth of their situation and present it in a fictional format so that no one can sue me basically
00:04:15
Speaker
Okay, well, you do that very well, and hopefully no one will see you.
00:04:20
Speaker
It's set in London, where you live and spent a lot of time when you were younger as well.
00:04:24
Speaker
And you really, it does feel very authentic, especially the parts around Peckham.
Setting & Personal Connection to Peckham
00:04:30
Speaker
Am I right in thinking that you spent a lot of time there when you were younger in Peckham?
00:04:33
Speaker
Yeah, so my family have always lived in either Peckham or Brixton, so very familiar with South London.
00:04:40
Speaker
And then when I moved to London when I was 18, I lived in Peckham.
00:04:45
Speaker
And that is kind of where I, I guess, kind of came into my adulthood.
00:04:50
Speaker
And also my mother-in-law still lives in Peckham.
00:04:53
Speaker
So I'm still there basically on a weekly basis.
00:04:55
Speaker
So yeah, very familiar with Peckham.
00:04:58
Speaker
That's great.
00:04:59
Speaker
That always comes through, I think, whenever I read a book and you can sort of tell that the author knows the area well, because there's a sort of, there's elements that someone who was writing who didn't know the area would never pick up on, like sort of smells or like nooks and crannies that just a passerby wouldn't know.
00:05:16
Speaker
Oh, that's good.
00:05:17
Speaker
I like it.
00:05:18
Speaker
I'm glad.
00:05:20
Speaker
And let's rewind a bit.
00:05:22
Speaker
So you've been writing and editing for quite a long time now as a columnist, a journalist for various magazines, and of course, one of the main players over at Black Ballad.
00:05:33
Speaker
When were you first drawn to writing and storytelling?
Inspiration & Writing Journey
00:05:38
Speaker
I think right from a very young age.
00:05:41
Speaker
So I think it was actually after reading The Secret Garden,
00:05:46
Speaker
I think that's by Frances Hodges Burnett.
00:05:48
Speaker
I should know, but The Secret Garden is essentially one of those books from my childhood that I absolutely loved.
00:05:55
Speaker
And I read that book and I was like, yeah, I want to write a book like this.
00:06:00
Speaker
And I think, if I'm correct, she was one of the youngest published authors at the time.
00:06:05
Speaker
Or there was someone, or one of her contemporaries probably got published.
00:06:09
Speaker
I think it was like 13 was the record for youngest published author in the UK.
00:06:13
Speaker
Wow.
00:06:14
Speaker
And I remember being in primary school and being like, yeah, I'm going to break that record or whatever.
00:06:18
Speaker
And obviously I didn't.
00:06:19
Speaker
But yeah, that was kind of when I thought, yeah, I want to have a go at this.
00:06:24
Speaker
Like I've always read, I was that kid that got books as presents.
00:06:28
Speaker
Like every single year it would be like, oh, what book have I been given this year from auntie so-and-so?
00:06:33
Speaker
But yeah, I was always reading, but I think it was reading The Secret Garden was like the first time I read a story and I was like, oh, I wish I could write a story.
00:06:42
Speaker
that is like this that kind of captures people's attention or captures people's imagination even though I didn't necessarily have the language for that at that age but that's what I felt was just that excitement of being like thrown into this world that um you don't know but you're learning about and obviously the intrigue and the mystery and all that kind of stuff so that was when I thought yeah I want to give this a go
00:07:06
Speaker
So you've always sort of wanted to be writing a novel and put one out there.
00:07:10
Speaker
Am I right in thinking this is your first novel published?
00:07:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:15
Speaker
I mean, it was a bit of a journey.
00:07:16
Speaker
I tried writing a couple of novels in my youth, which didn't go very far.
00:07:21
Speaker
So I was like, you know what, maybe this whole novel writing thing isn't for me.
00:07:24
Speaker
And I kind of gave it up very prematurely.
00:07:28
Speaker
But yeah, I cycled through a few other, I guess, careers.
00:07:33
Speaker
I grew up during the Iraq war.
00:07:37
Speaker
And for some reason that made me really want to be a war correspondent, which my mum was like, absolutely not.
00:07:43
Speaker
But then I wanted to be a journalist and I wanted to be in broadcast media.
00:07:47
Speaker
And then at some point I wanted to be a graphic designer and then realised that wasn't it.
00:07:51
Speaker
And then I was a photographer and a filmmaker for a little bit.
00:07:54
Speaker
And then I came back to kind of writing when I had my first child and I couldn't be out in the world with like
00:08:00
Speaker
a camera and like loads of equipment, I started writing again.
00:08:04
Speaker
So it was kind of quite a securitist, is that the right word, securitist journey, but I'm back to writing and yeah, it feels very natural.
00:08:13
Speaker
It feels, it feels good.
00:08:15
Speaker
I'm glad.
00:08:16
Speaker
I think everyone goes through a couple of books before they, it's unusual.
00:08:21
Speaker
I think that someone will, the first book is the book that gets them published unless they've done like five to 10 years of rewrites on that one book and slowly descended into madness, but it works for some people.
00:08:33
Speaker
So there you go.
00:08:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:36
Speaker
And although this isn't your first, this is your first novel that's come out, but it's not the first book that you've put out into the world.
Previous Works & Publishing Experience
00:08:43
Speaker
Yeah, so when I was a photographer, I did a project.
00:08:48
Speaker
So I used to do kind of like social documentary photography.
00:08:51
Speaker
So I was very much into storytelling around people's lives and like things that people actually going through, like in my community.
00:09:00
Speaker
So I did a project called Young Motherhood, which was basically about young mums and kind of I had friends who were young mums that had kids in their teens or like their early 20s.
00:09:13
Speaker
And I kind of had the privilege of kind of walking alongside them, but seeing the struggles that they faced, the judgment that they faced, all of that kind of thing, the way that stigma affected the choices that they felt they had to make for themselves and their children.
00:09:28
Speaker
So I kind of did this project where I just went around the UK photographing women and their children.
00:09:34
Speaker
So quote unquote young mum.
00:09:37
Speaker
So some of them were,
00:09:39
Speaker
from their 20s to like their 40s and 50s.
00:09:42
Speaker
And I think the oldest was probably in her 60s.
00:09:44
Speaker
So these are all women who've had children in their teens or very early 20s.
00:09:50
Speaker
So I photographed them and I interviewed them.
00:09:52
Speaker
And then I kind of put it into a book, like a book format that I transcribed the interviews and the photographs.
00:10:00
Speaker
It was also an exhibition.
00:10:01
Speaker
So that exhibition kind of, it was in a few different places.
00:10:05
Speaker
It was at the House of Commons.
00:10:07
Speaker
It was also...
00:10:08
Speaker
exhibited at the International Center of Photography in New York as well.
00:10:13
Speaker
So that, yeah, that was, it was a really, it was a really important project for me.
00:10:20
Speaker
And I think I learned a lot about storytelling, I think alongside that, even though it was a completely different genre and kind of like way of telling a story.
00:10:29
Speaker
But yeah, it was fun.
00:10:31
Speaker
And you self-published that, is that right?
00:10:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I self-published that one.
00:10:35
Speaker
What was that like as a process?
00:10:38
Speaker
So because I studied graphic design and photography, I think it was kind of like just doing a project for uni, essentially.
00:10:50
Speaker
So because I'd done kind of all through my degree, I'd done these kind of like little book projects.
00:10:58
Speaker
So I did a project called Where the Devil Won't Go, which is about...
00:11:03
Speaker
a notorious estate in South London, which has now actually been torn down, but kind of some ex-gang members who lived on the estate and kind of came out of that lifestyle.
00:11:14
Speaker
And that was, I think, my final major project at uni.
00:11:17
Speaker
And again, it was interviews and pictures.
00:11:19
Speaker
And I turned it into kind of like a book as my final presentation for that.
00:11:23
Speaker
And then I did another kind of book around...
00:11:29
Speaker
it was a more kind of abstract project about memory and family.
00:11:33
Speaker
And it was like a film photography and kind of being experimental with like how I was taking pictures.
00:11:38
Speaker
And it was more like a visual essay, like kind of exploring memory and family and those kinds of links.
00:11:45
Speaker
So that again was like presented as a book.
00:11:48
Speaker
So it's like, I've always kind of just done, I guess I'm so enamored by the form of the book that I've always kind of just made these projects into books.
00:11:55
Speaker
So I just feel like, yeah, it'll be great to have this in a book.
00:11:58
Speaker
And yeah,
00:11:59
Speaker
it's just a nice object to have and a great way of kind of just telling a story so doing young motherhood was kind of just doing a uni project again but having more time and kind of doing it over the course of a couple years rather than like trying to turn it around in three months or whatever yeah
00:12:16
Speaker
That's great that you've got the kind of scope to take sort of responsibility of every aspect of the production of that and sort of wear all those different hats.
00:12:24
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:12:26
Speaker
So interesting to see now you're going through the traditional publishing route with Hope and Glory.
00:12:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:35
Speaker
How kind of strange is it, the kind of difference between those two things?
00:12:38
Speaker
Obviously, it's a very different thing that you're putting out into the world, but like process wise, how different has that been?
00:12:46
Speaker
I think it's been different because I haven't had to do everything.
00:12:51
Speaker
That's nice.
00:12:51
Speaker
I just haven't had to do everything.
00:12:53
Speaker
Basically, there's actually people paid to proofread and to copy edit and to put stuff together.
00:12:59
Speaker
So that's been great.
00:13:03
Speaker
That's felt like a luxury.
00:13:05
Speaker
But also, I think...
00:13:07
Speaker
I guess kind of doing this myself in various kind of iterations just gave me a more like, maybe, I don't know.
00:13:15
Speaker
I felt like I was just more prepared to be a bit more hands on with certain things.
00:13:19
Speaker
So even like when it came to like designing the cover, I had a lot of opinions for my cover and, um,
00:13:26
Speaker
I was very much like, obviously the publisher and the sales team and everyone has to sign off on it and they kind of essentially have final say on what the cover looks like, but I had very strong opinions and I kind of like gave my input and I guess brought my design background in like tweaking, like very specific things.
00:13:42
Speaker
So, um,
00:13:44
Speaker
It was a good process because I didn't have to... I could be as involved as I wanted to, but then also I could similarly be, you know, I'm not actually that bothered about that.
00:13:54
Speaker
You guys can do what you're doing with that.
00:13:56
Speaker
So that was... Yeah, that was... I feel like it's a better way to work because... Yeah, otherwise, it's quite draining doing everything yourself.
00:14:05
Speaker
I'm the type of personality that is my default to do everything myself, but...
00:14:10
Speaker
it's draining and um yeah and also when you've got kids and a full-time job and all that kind of stuff like it's just impossible so it was nice to have like a team of people and a team of people who get it ultimately like people who you can actually trust to do the best by your book um because I know some people don't necessarily feel like they have that in the publishing process but I really did so yeah it was great
00:14:37
Speaker
So you felt like you kind of agreed with most of the things that the editors were saying and the sort of the way that the production was being done.
00:14:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, anything that I didn't feel kind of comfortable with, I felt quite happy to kind of push back.
00:14:55
Speaker
But for the most part, I felt like our visions kind of aligned.
Publishing Process & Design Involvement
00:14:59
Speaker
I think for me, the big thing with the cover was I didn't want a silhouette on the cover, which is something that has been kind of a pattern amongst, especially like black authors and black women authors, black
00:15:12
Speaker
like there always seems to be a silhouette on the cover in some kind of way and I was like I just don't want that partially because a couple years ago I did a massive thread about how unimaginative it was so I was like I can't now come and have a silhouette on my cover after doing this big long thread on Twitter however many years ago complaining about it
00:15:33
Speaker
But, um, yeah, so that was where I had, and I know that with, um, with both my editors, I expressed that my editor in the UK and the US, I expressed this.
00:15:44
Speaker
And, um, when the first draft came back, um, from the design team, it, both of them had silhouettes and both editors were just like, yeah, we can't give this to her.
00:15:54
Speaker
Like,
00:15:57
Speaker
So there was this process of both covers taking so long to do.
00:16:02
Speaker
And I was like, what is going on?
00:16:04
Speaker
And then afterwards, when we finally had a cover that we all agreed on, it was just funny.
00:16:09
Speaker
Both my editors were like, yeah, the first draft, we couldn't give it to you because...
00:16:14
Speaker
it was a silhouette and I was like, okay, I understand now why the process took so long.
00:16:19
Speaker
But it was just, yeah, it was just having that kind of, I think it's really, it's been really great for me to have that relationship with like the people involved where I can just be open and very forthright and not feel like,
00:16:33
Speaker
like it's an amazing opportunity to be published and obviously it's every kind of like writer's dream.
00:16:39
Speaker
But sometimes I think you can feel like you're almost...
00:16:45
Speaker
Like you, you like, you don't want to be too much of a nuisance because you don't want someone to all of a sudden just be like, Hey, what are you doing here?
00:16:51
Speaker
Actually, we don't like you and your book, like get out.
00:16:53
Speaker
Like you feel so kind of like burdened by gratefulness that you don't want to like kind of cause any ripples or kind of cause any problems.
00:17:01
Speaker
But I didn't feel like that.
00:17:03
Speaker
And I, cause I knew that I didn't want to feel like that.
00:17:05
Speaker
Cause I was like, no, like if this book is going to go out, I need to be able to stand by everything and not feel like,
00:17:12
Speaker
I have to have any caveats about, yeah, well, I didn't really want it like this, but I felt like I had to, like I didn't want that.
00:17:18
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:20
Speaker
You've got to, you've got to compromise in certain areas, but it needs to be still authentically you.
00:17:27
Speaker
Exactly.
00:17:29
Speaker
Exactly.
00:17:29
Speaker
Because it's your name that's on the book ultimately.
00:17:32
Speaker
So if anyone's got any problems with it, they're going to be coming to you first and foremost.
00:17:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:37
Speaker
Exactly.
00:17:38
Speaker
Well, I love both the covers, the two covers that are on your website.
00:17:43
Speaker
Is that the UK and the US one on the website?
00:17:46
Speaker
Yes.
00:17:46
Speaker
I love them both and they're bright and colourful.
00:17:49
Speaker
And I mean, it suits the title as well, you know.
00:17:52
Speaker
Definitely.
00:17:53
Speaker
And it feels like a summertime, like spring, summer kind of.
00:17:57
Speaker
Yeah, I really like that about them both.
00:17:59
Speaker
Well, you know, that's, it's really nice to hear as well for myself and everyone listening that you can, when you go into that relationship with a publisher, you can, you know, push back.
00:18:11
Speaker
It's, it's a collaboration.
00:18:13
Speaker
It's working both ways.
00:18:14
Speaker
You don't have to just do everything the publisher says.
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:18
Speaker
And I mean, I think that with my editors, they were very clear when it was kind of like, this has been decided.
00:18:24
Speaker
We just want you to kind of sign off.
00:18:26
Speaker
If there's like no major issues, then fine.
00:18:29
Speaker
But for most of it, it is a collaborative process.
00:18:34
Speaker
No one at your publishers wants you to hate them because they've put out a book that you don't like.
00:18:39
Speaker
They want you to be as excited as...
00:18:42
Speaker
and as happy about it as they are so I think it's always important to remember that and you are you are the talent right you are the one who they are who they've wanted to work with like so yeah it's it's a privileged position to be in but at the same time I don't feel like anyone should feel like oh beggars can't be choosers in that sense
00:19:04
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:19:05
Speaker
And I've had some editors on the show and speaking with them, it's the vibe that I got was it's very much they are there to try and get the best out of the author, not to say, oh, we should do this bit like that.
00:19:18
Speaker
Or we should change the book to be like, yeah, this could be better.
00:19:21
Speaker
You could we could get more from you and your new you could really come through more on the page here.
00:19:27
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:19:28
Speaker
That's exactly it.
Securing an Agent & Industry Insights
00:19:30
Speaker
And speaking of your team, the support team, you are repped by the wonderful Juliet Pickering, who I was lucky enough to have on the show.
00:19:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:40
Speaker
Based on sort of your quite prolific work outside of publishing, I was wondering if it was you that reached out to her on submission or did she reach out to you?
00:19:54
Speaker
I actually reached out to her.
00:19:57
Speaker
I was working on the very early kind of idea of hope and glory.
00:20:04
Speaker
And I actually asked Nikesh Shukla about getting an agent.
00:20:09
Speaker
And, you know, I didn't really know where to start.
00:20:12
Speaker
And he kind of said, oh, here are three agents that you might want to approach or whatever.
00:20:17
Speaker
And I kind of sent off...
00:20:19
Speaker
looking back now very like not the way that you should do it this is not the way that you should approach it I was literally just like hey I'm working on this idea like can we have a chat and um yeah Juliet was the first agent who I met with and I was just like yeah I like we just kind of gelled from the start so I didn't even end up meeting any other agents I was just like yeah this is it love at first sight let's go
00:20:45
Speaker
um so yeah it was a it yeah I don't think the way that I did it is actually how you're meant to do it but thankfully it worked yeah it worked out you know if it worked out don't knock it so when you went to her did you did you actually send her any sort of any of the manuscript or anything like that or was it really just a sort of pitch
00:21:06
Speaker
It was really a pitch.
00:21:08
Speaker
Like the manuscript wasn't even written.
00:21:10
Speaker
I think maybe there was like a few chapters that I had written down.
00:21:14
Speaker
No, it was just an outline, actually.
00:21:16
Speaker
I just had the outline of a book and I'd been talking to an editor and,
00:21:23
Speaker
not the editor that I ended up going with, but I'd been talking to an editor and it was kind of in this process of speaking with this editor.
00:21:29
Speaker
I was like, oh, I should probably get an agent now.
00:21:31
Speaker
Like this is actually looking like it might turn into something real.
00:21:36
Speaker
So I just kind of sent an editor
00:21:38
Speaker
emails like yeah I've been speaking to this editor and we're talking about potentially in a book and I think I need representation and then we met up for I think it was coffee and I just told her the outline of the book as it was then and we had a chat and then I think it was actually on um the launch at the launch party for um Hope and Glory she actually said that um
00:22:02
Speaker
It took eight minutes for her to be like, like after the meeting, like within eight minutes, she was like, yeah, actually I want to represent you.
00:22:09
Speaker
And then she sent the email and I was like, yeah, sure.
00:22:11
Speaker
Like, let's go.
00:22:12
Speaker
It was really like, I know this doesn't happen for most people.
00:22:16
Speaker
So I feel very, very fortunate that it happened this way for me.
00:22:21
Speaker
But it was really, yeah, it was a bit random, but it worked out.
00:22:29
Speaker
Amazing.
00:22:29
Speaker
Well, it's, I mean, I think it just speaks to my experience with publishing is most people who work in the industry are very friendly.
00:22:39
Speaker
And even if Juliet hadn't signed you, the fact that you messaged her and said, could we meet up?
00:22:45
Speaker
Could we, you know, I just wanted to chat with you.
00:22:48
Speaker
I'm sure she would have given you some amazing advice and, you know, set you on a really good path, even if she hadn't then decided to sign you.
00:22:55
Speaker
And I think it just speaks to the fact that anyone looking to kind of break into the industry with an agent, without an agent, however they want to do it, reach out to people and, you know, there's a good chance that they will just meet you for coffee.
00:23:07
Speaker
And then, you know, who knows what will come from that.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:11
Speaker
I mean, exactly.
00:23:11
Speaker
I think people aren't as kind of,
00:23:15
Speaker
elitist or kind of stand-offish as maybe it looks like from the outside I know some like younger writers and I've been kind of like semi-mentoring um one writer and I remember as she was going through the process of like trying to get an agent and she was reaching out to like quite a few agents or I can't remember exactly how many but she reached out to a few she had like um
00:23:39
Speaker
her manuscript kind of like ready and she sent it out and even the agents who said that they didn't feel that they were the right person to represent them or whatever the case may be they still were really nice like she showed me their emails and kind of like the screenshots of their responses and everyone was just really nice like people are always really encouraging and I think the thing that I think the thing that is really important about publishing as well is that
00:24:08
Speaker
I mean, it can be seen as a plus, it can also be seen as a minus, but a lot of it, I think, is also down to, like, there's, like, a weird alchemy of, like, different personalities coming together because, like, you working with your agent or working with an editor, it's a professional relationship, but there also needs to be, like, a certain level of kind of just, I don't know, malleability, like, just kind of...
00:24:36
Speaker
like, I don't want to say magnetism because that sounds a bit like yes or no, but there just needs to be some kind of like connection, like your agent or your editor really needs to connect with you and your work in just in a very specific way.
00:24:50
Speaker
So even like the feedback that this writer was getting was very positive and they're like, you know what, this is great.
00:24:55
Speaker
I just don't think I'm the right person to represent you or, you know, good luck.
00:25:00
Speaker
And it was all very, very positive.
00:25:02
Speaker
And I think generally that is the stance of most people within the industry.
00:25:06
Speaker
I haven't really come across anyone outright mean or like snubby or whatever I think people are nice it's just whether they feel like they're the right fit for you or even whether you think that you're the right fit for them because like it's not just them choosing you it's you choosing them
00:25:22
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:25:23
Speaker
Exactly.
00:25:24
Speaker
And I, I know a few people who have, uh, had an agent and split up with that agent for various reasons and often amicably, you know, most, more times than not, it's a mutual understanding that this partnership isn't going to work.
00:25:39
Speaker
And, um, the author is probably better off with a different agent or doing something in a different way.
00:25:45
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:25:47
Speaker
Speaking of doing things in different ways and the process of publishing, from when you first put the metaphorical pen to paper and started writing the book to it now being out in the world and you having the realization that marketing and press never ends, which part of this process have you found the most fun and which part has been the most challenging?
Editing Challenges & Reader Interaction
00:26:15
Speaker
Oh, um...
00:26:18
Speaker
I think the most challenging, I think, has been editing because you always feel like you go through these peaks and troughs.
00:26:26
Speaker
You finish one draft of the book and you're like, oh, this is absolutely amazing.
00:26:30
Speaker
This is the best thing ever.
00:26:32
Speaker
And then you give it a week or two, you read it back and you're like, what the hell was I thinking?
00:26:37
Speaker
This is absolute trash.
00:26:38
Speaker
So I find that process.
00:26:40
Speaker
And I'm in that process again as I'm working on the second book and I'm kind of like, oh, this is great.
00:26:45
Speaker
actually this might just be like steaming garbage, but it might be great.
00:26:49
Speaker
Like you're just not really sure of what you've got and your emotions are a bit all over the place as you're like working on this book.
00:26:56
Speaker
That is challenging.
00:26:57
Speaker
But I think the most fun part, I think I've just been talking about the book and like meeting readers and like,
00:27:06
Speaker
hearing how people connect with the book in different ways and actually feeling like, wow, this thing is out in the world and it's its own thing now.
00:27:16
Speaker
Like, yeah, these are my characters that I came up with and I wrote them, but they go out and people have their own interpretations of them and perceptions of them.
00:27:25
Speaker
People have their own favorites and their own kind of like ideas about what,
00:27:30
Speaker
what happened here or what should happen next if there was going to be a sequel and it's like which there's not going to be a sequel sorry guys I can't feel the pressure um but it's like that has been so much fun because I just love talking about books in general like I just love reading and talking about books so to be able to talk about like my book and to hear people's
00:27:51
Speaker
like thoughts on what I've done has been, it's been great.
00:27:56
Speaker
And I mean, I stay away from online reviews.
00:27:59
Speaker
So, so far, everything's been pretty positive.
00:28:04
Speaker
That's always a wise thing to do.
00:28:05
Speaker
Yeah, that must be so rewarding.
00:28:10
Speaker
I've spoken to a few authors who, who say, it's great, you know, if you get really good reviews online, and you get lots of this press and lots of hype around it.
00:28:19
Speaker
But some of the most meaningful sort of reward that they find in it is if they literally speak to one person and that person says how how it sort of reached them in a really personal way and affected, you know, their life and the way that they see things and they felt sort of reflected in the pages.
00:28:36
Speaker
That's just, yeah, there's so few things that are as rewarding as that.
00:28:41
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:28:42
Speaker
I think it is just, it's just another way of connecting with people, to be honest.
00:28:47
Speaker
And I think that even the most reclusive of authors is putting themselves out there to find some sort of connection with an audience.
00:28:57
Speaker
So that really makes it all worth it.
00:29:00
Speaker
And I mean, like reviews are nice and obviously everyone would love to be critically acclaimed and award-winning and all that kind of stuff.
00:29:06
Speaker
But yeah,
00:29:07
Speaker
It's like if people aren't reading your work and you kind of exist in this like really rarefied atmosphere, then it's like, well, you might as well have gone into academia, really.
00:29:20
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:29:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:21
Speaker
Just like a highly recognized, well, well recognized published article, you know.
00:29:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:27
Speaker
Which is, which is, you know, all very worthwhile things.
00:29:30
Speaker
And yeah, absolutely.
00:29:32
Speaker
But there's something nice about fiction and being able to touch someone deeply and reach their sort of heart.
00:29:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:29:40
Speaker
And you mentioned that you are, you do sort of mentoring with an author or you work with other authors sometimes.
00:29:50
Speaker
What advice would you give to aspiring authors trying to get their writing published and out in the world?
00:29:58
Speaker
I would say always submit, especially to free competitions, free workshops, those kind of things.
00:30:10
Speaker
I would say always submit, submit, submit, even if you just use these deadlines as a way of just getting your work done so you know that, okay, I'm going to finish this short story by this deadline.
00:30:22
Speaker
So even if you've got no expectation because...
00:30:25
Speaker
the short story that's finished is like a really early draft and you know it needs more work, at least just submit it so that it's done, it's out there, it's finished and now you can go back and work on it.
00:30:35
Speaker
I think that is really important because a lot of the time we have this thing about rejection, like we're afraid of rejection, we're afraid of being told that we're not good enough.
00:30:45
Speaker
But if you can kind of get over that a little bit, I mean, I don't think we ever really get over it because it's something that's really personal to us that we're putting out there.
00:30:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:54
Speaker
But if you can kind of get used to that muscle of just putting yourself out there, I think that can be really valuable and kind of helpful in the long run.
00:31:03
Speaker
And you just never know what might happen.
00:31:04
Speaker
Like you might put a half finished story out there.
00:31:08
Speaker
So the first short story that I ever got published, well, the only short story at this point is, no, that's a lie.
00:31:15
Speaker
I've had one published since then, but,
00:31:17
Speaker
The first real story that I ever got published was for the Book of Birmingham, an anthology by Karma Press.
00:31:24
Speaker
And the very first version of that was not even finished.
00:31:27
Speaker
And I just sent it off to the editor, Kavita and...
00:31:32
Speaker
She gave me some feedback and then I think the project got stalled for a while.
00:31:38
Speaker
And then she came back to me like maybe like a year or two later.
00:31:41
Speaker
I was like, oh, you still interested in kind of writing this?
00:31:44
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, sure.
00:31:45
Speaker
And I worked on it.
00:31:46
Speaker
But I think if I hadn't have sent her that really terrible first draft, I wouldn't have even been on her radar to come back to.
00:31:53
Speaker
Do you get what I mean?
00:31:54
Speaker
Like she wouldn't have even known that I'd have written anything.
00:31:57
Speaker
So I'd always say just put yourself out there.
00:32:00
Speaker
And I always say anything that is free that you can enter for free, like just do it, submit it.
00:32:06
Speaker
And you never know what might happen.
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think you're right.
00:32:09
Speaker
It's almost good practice just to be submitting things, just to sort of, even if it's like a workshop that you have no intention of going to, just it sort of helps you develop that thick skin that you're probably going to need.
00:32:22
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:32:24
Speaker
Exactly.
00:32:25
Speaker
Amazing.
00:32:26
Speaker
That's great advice.
00:32:27
Speaker
And that brings us on to the final question, which is, if, Jandela, you were stranded on a desert island with one book, which book would you take?
00:32:42
Speaker
I feel like this is a cheat, but it's the truth.
00:32:44
Speaker
I would take the New Daughters of Africa anthology, either one, one or two, edited by Margaret Busby, the amazing, legendary publisher.
00:32:56
Speaker
I think one of the first...
00:32:57
Speaker
or if not the first like black publisher within the UK.
00:33:01
Speaker
I would, it's, if you see it's a tome, it's bigger than the Bible.
00:33:05
Speaker
It is so, and there's so much in there that I would definitely be kept reading for a while.
00:33:11
Speaker
But yeah, I think that would definitely keep me busy.
00:33:15
Speaker
And I'll just get to read a bunch of different writers.
00:33:17
Speaker
So for those who don't know, it's kind of like a collection of writing by black women of African descent, like,
00:33:25
Speaker
all kinds of different writers at all different stages of their careers.
00:33:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:32
Speaker
So that is what I would take.
00:33:34
Speaker
That's a great choice.
00:33:34
Speaker
I mean, always smart to get something in there where you have different writing styles throughout.
00:33:39
Speaker
Clever.
00:33:40
Speaker
And obviously bigger the better when you're stranded on a desert island.
00:33:44
Speaker
Exactly.
00:33:45
Speaker
Amazing.
00:33:46
Speaker
Well, thank you so much, Jendela.
00:33:47
Speaker
Thanks for coming on the podcast, telling us all about Hope and Glory and all the sort of writing journey that you've been through.
00:33:53
Speaker
It's been really interesting chatting with you.
00:33:55
Speaker
No, thank you for having me.
00:33:56
Speaker
I've really enjoyed our conversation.
00:33:58
Speaker
And for everyone listening, if you want to keep up with everything that Jendela is doing, you can go to her website, www.jendela.co.uk, or you can follow her on socials at Jendela.
00:34:10
Speaker
That's J-E-N-D-E-L-L-A.
00:34:14
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss an episode of this podcast, follow us on Right and Wrong UK for Twitter and on Instagram at Right and Wrong Podcast.
00:34:22
Speaker
Thanks again to Jendela and thanks to everybody who's listening.
00:34:25
Speaker
We'll catch you in the next episode.
00:34:27
Speaker
you
00:34:29
Speaker
Thanks again for supporting the show and we'll see you in the next episode.